Truth What Is It?

lijhakim · 01-26-09 2:10 am

Bob, Of course, God is all powerful. However when God chose to give created beings free will, He limited His power. God values free will. Jesus would not have needed to die on Calvary unless it was to to preserve free will -- not just for earthlings, but for the sinless beings elsewhere. Hubb

bob · 01-26-09 11:11 am

Scripture would be nice on God limiting His power because He made us with free wills and to preserve free will for those who live elseware.

bob · 01-26-09 11:28 am

"Bob Shields, if there was no temptation, being tempted in all ways as we are, the Bible doesn't tell it straight. Tempting suggests one could succumb does it not? He had all His powers to turn rock to bread, that was a temptation he resisted, but could have failed at, or it wasn't a temptation." -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Bob, Sure the Bible tell us Jesus was tempted by Satan. It is not in God's will to sin. Sin is an abhorrence to Him. Jesus is God, whether on this Earth or in Heaven. Just because Satan thought he might entice Jesus to do his bidding doesn't mean that Jesus "might" have failed. It is not Biblical. It comes from someone who didn't understand and has been bought by many who just take it for granted. Jesus suffered the same pain, and everything we would feel if we were in the same situation, but yet He is/was God. God will not sin. Bob

lijhakim · 01-26-09 12:57 pm

Sabbath: A Creation Covenant Genesis 1:27 says “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” Wow! There is a lot of meaning packed into this one verse. First of all, man did not evolve from slime. Man was created in the image of God. And second women too were created in the image of God. They were given the same exalted state in which Adam was created. What does it mean to be created in the image of God? After all, “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). How can man be like God in any sense? Can man be like God physically? Yes! We don’t know what the spiritual body is like. We do know that all the capabilities of our physical bodies are capabilities that God has to a much greater degree. He can hear, He can see, and He can speak. His hand is not shortened that it cannot save (Isaiah 59:1). Can man be like God mentally? Yes! “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8-9). We share with God the ability to love, be aware of ourselves, to understand spiritual concepts, to think and to plan. While we share these things with God, His capability is far above ours. Can man be like God spiritually? Yes! Man has the capability to conceive of the unseen God. He can sense His presence and His guiding. He can understand that the things he sees on this earth come from the hand of the Creator. He has a social consciousness; he can sense the feelings of others. He can discriminate between the common and the Holy. He has a desire for the promised future. How does this translate into everyday life? Adam and Eve in Eden loved God and patterned their lives on what they understood of God. What God did, they would do to the extent of their capabilities. For God to do something was a command for them to do likewise. This earth was created in six days! Well, not really. There was a very real seventh day that was just as much part of creation as the other six days. Adam was created on the sixth day. His very first full day was the seventh-day – the Sabbath. When God rested on that day, Adam would rest too. God was not physically tired! Neither was Adam. But they rested from a work that God had completed. On the seventh-day they put aside common week-day labor. This common week-day labor is not bad. It is doing the work of God in supporting life. But by its very nature it tends to focus on common things. On the Sabbath, there would be 24 hours to focus on the reason for labor, on the reason for life. On the Sabbath, they would look away from their necessary labor to learn about God. They would lift their eyes to a higher goal, to become even more like God! In their Sabbath fellowship with God, they would learn about true love. The kind of love taught by Jesus when He was on earth. They would learn about true service to others. How in their labors they would not seek to accumulate the best for themselves, but would seek for ways to help others. It was an exhilarating experience. To spend a whole day focusing on God’s purpose for their lives. The Sabbath was for man to be a covenant. “I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people!” As Thomas said, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28). And as God has promised, He will make of us to be a peculiar treasure, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation (Exodus 19:5,6). ------------------------ Hubert F. Sturges .

bob · 01-26-09 3:57 pm

Hubert said: "Of course, God is all powerful. However when God chose to give created beings free will, He limited His power. God values free will. Jesus would not have needed to die on Calvary unless it was to to preserve free will -- not just for earthlings, but for the sinless beings elsewhere." Emphasis mine. Somehow my previous answer to Hubert was not coherent. I do have an excuse, it was a senior moment. Still it is a bit embarrassing. I will try again. Scripture please on God's limited Power. Where does it say, Bible only please, that Jesus needed to die for people elsewhere to preserve their free will}}? I, too, get mixed up sometimes. I think the Bible says something only to later find out that it can only be found in the writings of the prophet. My bobservation for today. Bob

bob · 01-26-09 4:01 pm

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:}} 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

lijhakim · 01-26-09 6:58 pm

God is all powerful! That is a "given." "Is anything too hard for the Lord?" Genesis 18:14 One angel slays 185,000 Assyrians. 2 Kings 19:35 Story of Creation tells of the power of God. Psalm 33:6, 9. When Jesus was raised from the dead, He sent ONE angel who dispelled all the hosts of Satan. Yet He limits His power. Revelation 12 tells of a war in heaven. A War?? Why would God have to fight a war when one angel can destroy 185,000 men in one night? What was the nature of that war? Knowing that God is a God of love and persuasion, we can know that the war in heaven was in the hearts and minds of the angels. When the second person of the Godhead came to earth as a man, He limited his power. Again He used love and persuasion to try to win the hearts of men. He accepted even death to save mankind. Satan could be defeated in the minds of men, only with the consent of each individual. 1 Peter 1:12; 1 Corinthians 4:9 indicates that the war being fought today on this earth is of intense interest to all the inhabitants of the universe. If the love of God prevails, all creation is free. If Satan wins all creation will be plunged into the depths of sin as in the heathen villages of New Guinea. If Jesus should fail . . . . . If God should in desperation exercise His power and destroy rebellious humanity, all creation will then have to serve Him from fear. How do I know that God uses love and persuasion to win men? The Bible story from Genesis to Revelation reveals this. It can be seen in every story of the Bible. There is a limit to His love and persuasion. The Holy Spirit can be grieved. And the persistently rebellious have been and will be destroyed. With this in mind, it would be wise for every person to now make sure of his relation with God. ------------------------ I hope this presents an answer to your questions. It is a large subject, and a short answer is not real easy to present. ------------------------ Hubert F. Sturges .

bob_2 · 01-26-09 7:24 pm

Hubb, here is the EGW speak I was talking about: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:The terms of this oneness between God and man in the great covenant of redemption were arranged with Christ from all eternity. The covenant of grace was revealed to the patriarchs. The covenant made with Abraham four hundred and thirty years before the law was spoken on Sinai was a covenant confirmed by God in Christ, the very same gospel which is preached to us. "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." The covenant of grace is not a new truth, for it existed in the mind of God from all eternity. This is why it is called the everlasting covenant. The plan of redemption was not conceived after the fall of man to cure the dreadful evil; the apostle Paul speaks of the gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ, as "the revelation of the mystery, which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith." (Revised Version.) <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.whiteestate.org/message/Christ_Our_Hope.asp" target=_top>http://www.whiteestate.org/message/Christ_Our_Hope .asp</a> Question: Was the Sabbath part of that Eternal Covenant that was in the mind of God forever? Was the covenant or law kept in heaven before creation of the earth, was the Sabbath part of the immutible Law of God. The Everlasting Covenant, Plan of Salvation, I agree are synonymous for our discussion, but you want to make the presentation your way, or EGW's way rather than the way God lays it out in the Bible. The above are EGWs words not God's, they are her attempt to lay out the Plan of Salvation, BUT, the Sabbath was given as a rest for an overworked people, as a shadow of the True Rest, revealed in the New Covenant. Preach it how you want, but I refuse to get confused by EGWs presentation of the Abrahamic Promise/Covenant and the Old and New Covennats and their uniqueness. They lead to a full understanding of Salvation, but when dismantled, it creates chaos and misunderstanding. This is not about a day, but about saving mankind. To dissect it and make the Sabbath a mandate of the Everlasting Covenant as you present it and EGW presents it is not Biblical. The ultimate goal of the Gospel is rest in Jesus Christ, not a 24 hour period or an institution that deifies a day over the Creator and Saviour.

elaine · 01-26-09 7:42 pm

Adam would rest too. God was not physically tired! Neither was Adam. But they rested from a work that God had completed. Where does the Bible say that Adam rested on the 7th day? After the 7th day is mentioned in Genesis, there is no mention of it again until several thousand years later when the Ten Commandments were given. Since Genesis was not written at the time of Creation, and, according to traditionalists Moses was the author, when was Genesis written, and how can anyone be certain that the Sabbath was observed by anyone during the several millennia before the Exodus?

bob · 01-26-09 9:22 pm

If anyone had kept the day surely something from antiquity would have shown up by now. Absolutely nothing is revealed that would suggest that any human ever observed a day in the seven day cycle until the exodus. Hubert, I ask again: Where does it say, Bible only please, that Jesus needed to die for people elsewhere to preserve their free will? 1 Peter 1:12 says nothing about people on other planets and you sure did a stretch in providing 1Cor 4:9 from the NIV which says universe. Every other version says world. Why do you think God limits His power just because He chooses to do things the way He does? You have, in no way, proven that Jesus had limited power while on Earth. He was fully God and used His power to redeem mankind. Hubert ask: "Yet He limits His power. Revelation 12 tells of a war in heaven. A War?? Why would God have to fight a war when one angel can destroy 185,000 men in one night? What was the nature of that war?" God didn't fight a war Hubert, the angels fought against satan and the fallen angels. The story is sketchy, so we don't know if it was a war of words, a battle of swords, muskets, A bombs, or tinker toy weapons. We have no reports of casualties. God chose to do it all like it was done.

lijhakim · 01-26-09 11:51 pm

Bob Sands, I'm sure you saw my post about "Sabbath: A Creation Covenant." I took these ideas and put them in my own words. See LaRondelle, HK: Our Creator Redeemer. An introduction to Biblical Covenant Theology. God's Covenant of Eden. p. 11-14. We don't have much information as to Sabbath keeping by sinless beings, except Isaiah 66:23. Considering the purpose of the Sabbath as spelled out in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11 I think the Sabbath principle is a major part of life in the whole universe. We just do not know how the time is set out for the Sabbath. In answer to your questions, I would say Yes! Yes! Yes!. Was the Sabbath given as a rest for overworked people? No! The first Sabbath began the evening of the day that Adam was created. He had done no work at all. God rested, but God does not get tired. His rest was an example for us and a rest of satisfaction in a job well done. Our salvation is for the purpose of restoration of man to fellowship with God. The Sabbath is central to this purpose. See my post above on "Sabbath: A Creation Covenant" The purpose of Sabbath is more for spiritual reasons than just physical rest. Hebrews chapter four is used to give evidence for seventh-day Sabbath keeping AND to deny seventh-day Sabbath keeping. It is not a good chapter to support either view point. I have excellent papers by scholars supporting the seven-day Sabbath. Do SDA's worship the Sabbath? This is a rather ridiculous statement that you have made many times; with absolutely no proof at all. If any man were to worship a day, I would point to the insistance of Sunday keepers to set aside Sunday for worship with absolutely no Bible proof at all. There is nothing wring with having a religious meeting on Sunday. The problem comes when people do so thinking they are keeping God's Sabbath. Hubb

bob_2 · 01-27-09 12:01 am

Lots of RCC's I know go to their weekly mass obligation late Saturday afternoon so they have Sunday free to be a real estate agent or other.... The SDA rigidity on this issue far out does those on the Sunday side, at least some of them I converse with.

lijhakim · 01-27-09 12:15 am

Bob, Maybe some Catholics are liberal in their keeping of Sunday, many are very devout. What they do is not the issue. The issue is that you accuse SDAs of worshiping the day (with absolutely no proof); while you seem to focus an extreme amount of energy and time to promote Sunday keeping. So if anyone is worshiping a day, maybe you need to look in the mirror! Hubb

lijhakim · 01-27-09 12:28 am

Bob Shields, I have to ask you some questions: Why did Jesus need to die on Calvary? Because as Creator and Lawgiver only He was qualified to meet the demands of that law and save Mankind. Why did He not just wipe out mankind and start over? Because that is not according to His character of love. He will fight this battle using only love and persuasion. Sinless beings throughout the universe are quite aware of this battle. The outcome will demonstrate the true character of God. If God is shown to be arbitrary or vengfull, sinless beings will be reduced to serving Him out of fear. Their freedom of choice would be gone. There are Bible verses for every step in this logic. But Bob, you are not ignorant. This is a good project for you to work through. It is a large topic, and books have been written on the subject. If you really wanted to know, go to the ABC and look for books on the subject. Hubb

don · 01-27-09 1:52 am

If anyone had kept the day surely something from antiquity would have shown up by now. I don't agree with this argument from silence. The parameters are established by the one who argues. This, too, is the makings of myth. Absolutely nothing is revealed that would suggest that any human ever observed a day in the seven day cycle until the exodus. I would modify this. "Absolutely nothing is revealed that specifically tells of any human observing a day in the seven day cycle until the exodus. I think the fact that God made and blessed the Seventh-day at the end of the creation week suggests that it was begun then and that Adam and Eve would have been instructed on the sacredness of the day. This is only suggested to me, I don't expect you to receive such a suggestion. Also, when Jesus said that the "Sabbath was made for man" that also suggests to me that the making took place at the end of the making of the world. I agree that no specific instructions are recorded regarding the Sabbath until the giving of manna. I find it interesting that the Sabbath was observed before it was formally included in the Sinai covenant. There is room enough to conclude in various ways. This should be reason enough not to condemn those who conclude differently than I do. I will present my understanding without burdening you. That is the role of the Spirit. .

bob_2 · 01-27-09 3:46 am

Hubb said in black, my response in blue: Bob, Maybe some Catholics are liberal in their keeping of Sunday, many are very devout. Proof please, my next door neighbor is Catholic, shall I say a seasonal Catholic. What they do is not the issue. The issue is that you accuse SDAs of worshiping the day (with absolutely no proof); Sorry Hubb, I have given plenty of examples of where the Gospel can not be spoken by SDAs without the worship day be talked about, almost a guilt thing if they don't mention it. That sort of obsession above the center of the Gospel, Jesus Christ, is idolatry. while you seem to focus an extreme amount of energy and time to promote Sunday keeping. Proof please!!! I have made it clear that the only day God has set in the NT, is "Today" meaning when the Gospel is accepted any day, you can be at peace and rest in Jesus Christ. So if anyone is worshiping a day, maybe you need to look in the mirror! Hubb Hubb I understand you frustration when your view is not accepted, but you are accusing me falsely, I have never promoted Sunday, in any sort of extreme manner, or at all. You need to retract falsehoods, especially when you can't proof them. (Message edited by Bob_2 on January 27, 2009)

elaine · 01-27-09 1:57 pm

I think the Sabbath principle is a major part of life in the whole universe. We just do not know how the time is set out for the Sabbath. } What is your thinking based upon? If it's a thought, wouldn't you feel more certain if it were so stated in Scripture rather than merely assuming it without corroboration? Since every seventh day would be totally different even for the few planets in our solar system, and we know nothing of the totality of the universe. Disregarding that Heaven has the light of God, not the Sun for its source, how can such certitude be based on anything but wishful hope? Bible scholars are almost unanimous in agreeing that the first chapter of Genesis, and much of the Holiness Code was written by the priestly segment of Israel. This was to reinforce the law and was not written until after 1000 B.C. This is why the older creation story in Genesis 2 says nothing about specific days' activity, nor mentions the Sabbath. The Priestly version of the Torah was not written until much later and correlates with the prophets, also writing in the 8th-7th century B.C. who kept calling for repentance and turning back to the Law so as to receive God's blessing rather than cursed by events. When the seventh day was written into the Creation account, it was for this reason: to return to the Law. And ever since then, the Law has been the most important part of Judasim, as shown repeatedly in the NT references to the Jewish worship of the Law. Adventists, in coining the phrase: "The Law is the transcript of God's character" elevated the law, and especially the Sabbath, in exactly the same way that the Jews did. So, rather than seeing that Jesus is the much more perfect transcript and revelation of God, they imitated the Jews and elevated Sabbath observance to a finely tuned mechanism by which to evaluate "God's People." Adventists fell into the same trap. Without any Christian texts showing the importance of Sabbath keeping, they were forced into returning to Judaism's strongest doctrine, and refused to read the new very simplifed Christian doctrine: Jesus has replaced the law.

cadge · 01-27-09 4:50 pm

After the Seed came and the Sacrifice was made and the law fulfilled, we were to be a people that walked after the Spirit, not the letter of the law. The church was held together by the love that they had towards God and each other in the Holy Spirit. This is what made the Church, and it would have continued if they had continued with Him in the teachungs He left and the ones given by revelation to the Twelve and Paul. The Spirit of anti-christ was at work to divide, and Paul warned about it. What was once a communal body that lived for each other began to break up and self sufficientcy took over. When Jesus called James and John and Nathaniel and the others away from their nets and whatever, to follow him, they now lived communally and learned the life of "the kingdom". When Jesus told the young man that wanted to know how to obtain eternal life to sell all he had and give it to the poor he meant it. He meant for him to do as they were. "The foxes have holes, the birds of the air have nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head" was about owning nothing to call ones own. They lived for each other. That is the only way you can "look on the things of others and not on your own things", because as I'm looking out for your welfare, you're looking out for mine. That's the kingdom that Jesus was talking of. "On earth as it is in heaven". The communal living that fell apart didn't start at pentecost. Jesus started it from the get go. That was the beginning church and that will also be the remnant church. Ellen White missed the boat. The concept of the way that life has and is conducted across the globe and the concept that Jesus started are diametrically opposed. One leads to a concern for ones own security first and secondly, if at all, for others. It's way is certainly incapable of "esteeming others better than yourselves". The bigotry between the jewish converts and the Gentile ones was one of the factors of "the way" breaking up, but the Nicholatian spirit of lordship rather than servitude was influencing the pockets of believers also. Paul tried to stress that there should be no cultural schism, but all were to be one; male, female, Jew, Greek etc. The antinomial heresy of "freedom of the flesh" where "Jesus did it all so we can't be lost" concept crept in too. Thats why Paul continued to warn against fornication and lachiviousness so often. As the church 'lost it's first love', it progressed to a corrupt heirarchy. It also lost the central "glue" that held it all together as a body, the "candlestick", the Holy Spirit. The now lording and not serving spirit of the heirarchy took the day that they assembled together, which was not held as a holy day as was the Sabbath of Jewry, being the mosaic law of the ten commandments, but in comemoration of the greatest event to mankind, the resurrection, and made it a letter of the law holy day to control the masses. Why? Because without the Holy Spirit in the midst and dwelling in each believer, they could not have the true love for God and one another. As the church moved on to the corrupt Catholism it amalgated with pagan traditions and kept feast days for deceased saints and other days and degreed them holy days of obligation just as Sunday now was. To not keep Sunday, as a letter of the law holy day, was now considered a mortal sin as were other days and ceremonies, sacraments and rites. Whe Paul told the Gentile converts to not forsake assembling together, it was because they were not under the letter of the law. If they had been, they would have been already keeping the seventh day sabbath from time of baptism. The communities were breaking up and in order to fulfill the Gospel commission of relieving the suffering of others, to bring the message of salvation to the world, and start new churches etc, they needed to come together. If they wanted to do it on Saturday or Sunday or any other day, it didn't matter. There was no longer any "letter of th law" holy day of obligation. Cadge

lijhakim · 01-27-09 6:06 pm

David, Good thoughts. Just a couple questions: If a person walks after the spirit, does that mean that he does not need to keep the law? Paul says in Romans 3:31, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." My understanding of this is that in Christ, in the Spirit, we are empowered to overcome sin and to keep the law which is written on the heart. Romans 8:3 says that Jesus "condemned sin in the flesh." Does that mean that now sin "does not matter?" or does it mean that mean that Jesus has condemned sin in His own sinless life, and that that victory is now ours to overcome sin? You had good things to say in your post, just these two questions. ------------------------ Hubert F. Sturges .

cadge · 01-27-09 7:29 pm

The written law still serves as a a choolmaster to convict the uninformed of sin. That's why we don't just discard it. Unfortunately, there are some who keep trying to teach others that they must keep the letter of the law, but that is not the lawful/correct use of it since the Holy Spirit was given as instructor. 1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned: 1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling 1Ti 1:7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; 1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;.. Like Bob keeps trying to tell you, Hubb. We keep the law of Christ which is broadcast across the minds of the believers by the impressions given by the Holy Spirit through the revelations in the writings of the New Testament Gospels and Epistles. These teachings of Christ gave while here and the revelations that He gave to his Apostles were written down and given for warnings and admonitions for us to live by. Thus, the Holy Spirit writing the law, the Spirit of God's character, in our hearts. Luke Chapter 1: 1-4: Luk 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Luk 1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; Luk 1:3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, Luk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed. And Acts Chapter 16:4-5: Acts 16:5 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. Acts 16:5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily. 1 Cor 2:9-13: 1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 1 Cor 14:29-32: 1 Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 1 Cor 14:30 If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 1 Cor 14: 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1 Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Eph 3:1-7: Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Cor 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

bob_2 · 01-27-09 9:56 pm

Hubb, in response to your post above, note this: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:In the last section of Romans 3, Paul declares that the gospel of salvation announces a righteousness from God, a righteousness that “is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe” (3:22). Believers are justified or saved by faith, not by observing the law (3:28). But some people object: Paul, are you saying that the law is wrong? Paul answers: “Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law” (3:31). Paul began this section by saying the Law and the Prophets testify to this gift of righteousness (3:21). He began the entire letter by saying that his gospel had been promised in the Scriptures (1:2). The law was designed to lead people to the gospel, and the gospel does not nullify the law in the same way that the Messiah does not nullify the prophecies that predicted his coming. Rather, he fulfills them. Similarly, the gospel fulfills the law, brings it to completion, and accomplishes what the law could only point at. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.wcg.org/" target=_top>http://www.wcg.org/</a> use their search site feature and put in "The Example of Abraham" to get this passage. The Gospel doesn't nullify the Law nor the Law nullify the Gospel, but the Gospel fulfills the law and the Law points to the Gospel.

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