Truth What Is It?

bob_2 · 01-11-09 11:54 pm

Today, I worshipped in a Presbyterian church where the minister preached on, "What is Truth". This seemed very ironic to me since I was brought up thinking I had it as an SDA. The list of things that make up truth is short. It can be boiled down as our Messiah did to: 1. Love God 2. Love one another as you would want to be loved. The rest is baggage. The Presbyterian's predestination and limited atonement to the SDA's IJ and Sabbath. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Do you really want to know the Truth? Jesus said to all who are searching, "Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened for you." (The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 7, Verse 7). But if you knock on the door looking for truth and Jesus opens it, what will you do? Will you go in to Him or will you turn and walk away? And if you turn away, where will you go? Throughout the ages, in all creation, there is no other truth but Him. Jesus declared it: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but through me" (The Gospel of John, Chapter 14, Verse 6). Would you prefer an easier truth? One that makes no demands? You know that in the long run it will be much harder to find out that you have lived a lie all your life than to accept, right now, the simple demands that Jesus makes. Remember, He is compassionate. Patient. Willing to forgive. Jesus says, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light" (The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 11, Verses 28-30). <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/OnlineDiscipleship/Easter/What_is_Truth.aspx" target=_top>http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/OnlineDiscipleshi p/Easter/What_is_Truth.aspx</a> I am not talking here about 1+1=2 but what saves, what gives eternal life. What is that truth?? (Message edited by Bob_2 on January 12, 2009)

elaine · 01-12-09 10:58 pm

When a young man came to Rabbi Hilel many years ago and asked if he could recite the entire Torah while standing on one leg, the Rabbi replied: "You shall love the Lord God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. All the rest is commentary." This is what Jesus said, and what the OT says. It cannot be improved on.

bob_2 · 01-13-09 2:06 am

Can Jews be saved without belief in the Messiah, Jesus Christ?? Are there multiple ways to heaven???

don · 01-13-09 9:14 am

Can Jews be saved without belief in the Messiah, Jesus Christ?? Are there multiple ways to heaven??? <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%202:12-16;&version=31;" target="_blank">Romans 2:12-16</a> (New International Version) 12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>According to this passage, anyone saved in the end will be judged "through Jesus Christ." Is the mind experience of "belief" necessary for salvation? It is certainly presented as a necessity. Are there exceptions? All will be judged worthy of salvation "through Jesus". Jesus' merits provide the basis for all those saved. No one can make it to eternal life without the merits of Christ. Can those merits be applied without the experience of believing in Jesus? People are judged individually by what is fair and just in their situation. Jesus saves. .

roca · 01-13-09 2:50 pm

What do you think verse 16 means? What does Paul mean by my gospel? Would not the logical answer to this be that Paul is indicating that Jesus Christ is God, When God judges it is Jesus Christ that judges. That God is the same as Jesus Christ. That salvation is from God and God was revealed by Jesus Christ and that is Paul's gospel.

lijhakim · 01-14-09 2:49 pm

Ron, this verse:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:"This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares" (Romans 2:16).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>There is one theme that comes up frequently in Paul's epistles. After his experience in Athens, Paul determined to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. His "gospel" may be most clearly demonstrated where it is opposed, and this is often done in opposition to the Judaizers. Judaizers were Jewish Christians who held onto Jewish customs and ceremonies as their means of salvation. Paul emphasized that this denied that salvation came through Jesus Christ and His one effective sacrifice. This is clearly shown in Hebrews 8-10 and Galatians 3. The efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice is the gospel that we need today. ------------------------- Hubert F.Sturges .

roca · 01-14-09 8:19 pm

What do you mean: The efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice is the gospel that we need today. The verse in questions says nothing about the act of a sacrifice making Jesus capable of performing God's judgment. So let's test out your theory. Was Jesus capable of saving prior to the incarnation, if He is God and God can do all things then the answer would be yes He was capable. So what about His sacrifice would make Him more capable of doing what He could always do? Or would you put forth that God could not save anyone until He had someone killed in order to change God's mind so that God could be persuaded to save someone? So that Jesus sacrifice was effective because it changed God's mind and He could then forgive and save? By the way Judiazers said that salvation was through obedience to Jewish laws, they had no problem with Jesus' sacrifice. The sacrifice however does not negate the need to keep the Jewish laws...sort of like Traditional Adventists in that way.

lijhakim · 01-15-09 12:52 am

Ron, Let's take your statement:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:"Was Jesus capable of saving prior to the incarnation, if He is God and God can do all things then the answer would be yes He was capable. So what about His sacrifice would make Him more capable of doing what He could always do?"<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Was Jesus capable of saving? Of course. God is not limited, except as He chooses to limit Himself. I believe that God, in giving free choice to angels and to men, valued that gift to His creatures highly. He would not do anything to over-ride that free choice. If He should arbitrarily kill sinners, then men and angels would serve Him out of fear. For this reason God permitted satan to demonstrate the nature of sin. The crowning act was to crucify Jesus at Calvary. For Satan to attempt to kill the Son of God exposed him for what he was, the ultimate murderer, for all creation to see. When Satan succeeded in getting Adam to sin, He usurped the dominion given to Adam and the human race became subservient to him (Romans 6:16). God had indicated that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen 2:17). Before that day ended God had come to Adam and Eve and given them the covenant (Gen 3:15). He would give men a conscience, an enmity against evil. But He had authority to do this only through His suffering - "thou shalt bruise his heel." In His Sacrifice, Jesus "bought" back the human race. Men were now on vantage ground where they could choose the grace of God and be restored to favor with God (see 1 Cor 7:22-24). Could Jesus have done this without making the Sacrifice on Calvary? NO! There are several places in the New Testament where it is stated that Jesus has power or authority. This power or authority comes only through His sacrifice. See Revelation 5. Jesus' sacrifice on Calvary demonstrates that He is loving and merciful to save, and He is just in that He has paid the price for man's redemption. ------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

don · 01-15-09 9:14 am

In Him we live an move and have our being. God is sovereign in all things. He even designed our sense of justice and freedom Hubert has described. He designed the parameters of the universal and the concepts we treasure, such as freedom of choice. Of course, once He has put these parameters in play, He Himself lives by their expectations. .

george · 01-15-09 11:17 am

Don, How do we make choices- what do our choices depend on? AND, do wrong choices automatically disqualified us from something - what? AND, is everybody free to make whatever the choices are out there?

cadge · 01-15-09 11:56 am

Hubb said: "Before that day ended God had come to Adam and Eve and given them the covenant (Gen 3:15)". He did indeed give them the covenant. The covenant of grace, which is mercy. Adam and Eve did not die immediatly, but were given the sacrificial system, a visible type of the promise of a redeemer that they were to have hope in on condition of obediance. They at first tried to cover their own nakedness by a physical cover, fig leaves. Their physical nakedness and attempt to cover it was but an outward expression of their inner spiritual defilement/nakedness. When God covered them with the skins of the first sacrifice, it was a demonstration that if they trusted in the promise of the redeemer to die the death that had been decreed on them, that they would be covered as they lived in obediance. We have the same covering in faith, hope, and peace in the promise as we remain in Him, learn of Him, and truly know Him unto a willing obediance as we see His love towards us in greater depth through the scriptures by the revelations through the Holy Spirit. IN my opinion, Cadge

don · 01-15-09 11:21 pm

How do we make choices- what do our choices depend on? AND, do wrong choices automatically disqualified us from something - what? AND, is everybody free to make whatever the choices are out there? We understand choices; two objects, choose one. That seems easy. There are wrong choices which disqualify us from some things. If I choose to steal, I am disqualified to be the treasurer, for example. A child molester should be disqualified from youth work, such as Pathfinders. We certainly are quite free to make whatever choices are out there, but not totally free. I understand that a person suffering from severe alcoholism cannot choose to go off of alcohol "cold turkey". He needs help. He is not free to take such action and continue to live. Probably most of us can think of choices we have made, thinking at the time how right the choice was but then later we look back and realize that we were rather impulsive and could have chosen better. Often our choice to respond to perceived injustice would modify if given more time. So, I am free, yet limited. Limited by the horizons of my own experience. .

lijhakim · 01-16-09 12:51 am

Cadge, You have made a good observation of the presence of grace and obedience in the life of the Christian. In answer to what is implied in both yours and Don's post: What is the status of a person when he sins, is not aware of it, and until he makes confession and is forgiven (1 John 1:9)? There was a burnt offering made day by day on a continual basis -- a lamb both morning and evening (Exodus 29:38-42 and Numbers 15:24, 25; 28:3-8). The purpose of this offering is not clearly stated, but we have an indication in the offering Job offered for his sons (Job 1:5). this was a burn offering made by Job IF "my sons have sinned." These offerings are reassuring that God will hold His hand over His people when they sin, to give them a chance to repent and be forgiven. But there is also a warning for those who might presumptuously sin, expecting "routine forgiveness" (Numbers 15:30, 31). ---------------------- Hubert F. Sturges See website . . . . <a href="http://www.everlastingcovenant.com"> Everlasting Covenant</a>

george · 01-16-09 7:40 am

Don, We understand choices; two objects, choose one. That seems easy. I know you're smarter than that, especially as you deal with kids from all kinds of backgrounds and temperaments. Actually our freedom to choose is extremely limited. None of has complete freedom of choice. We are encumbered by "nature and nurture" and as part of that baggage our culture dictates the choices that are even available to us. We can only thank our lucky stars that we were born into a society that permits even the amount of freedom we do have. The preamble of the US Declaration of Independence aside, we are not all created equal when it comes to the choices we have. The often quoted "Thre but for the grace of God go I." has more truth in it than we can imagine; but the grace of God has little to do with it. It's about who our parents are and where we were born. The grace of God follows us even to into those parameters.

don · 01-16-09 8:41 am

It's about who our parents are and where we were born. One could add, "and where we are now," for this is the ultimate opportunity. I think we agree on the limitations of choice. Yet, the "American Dream" involves a defying of those limitations; ie. rags to riches, etc. Some people seem to be born with all the cards stacked against them and they still become successful. Part of the American Dream, not always identified, is that most successful people have experienced a "hand up" from someone, some mentor. The spirit to overcome, to beat the odds, etc. has its roots somewhere in those genes. Some agressively get things done while others don't. In school we see this. Some students apply themselves to learning; others seem to be blocked by some inner malaise and do surprisingly little to further their own cause, their own success.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:<a href="http://www.whiteestate.org/books/ed/ed1.html" target="_blank">Education, pages 17-18</a>. The Holy Scriptures are the perfect standard of truth, and as such should be given the highest place in education. To obtain an education worthy of the name, we must receive a knowledge of God, the Creator, and of Christ, the Redeemer, as they are revealed in the sacred word. Every human being, created in the image of God, is endowed with a power akin to that of the Creator-- individuality, power to think and to do. The men in whom this power is developed are the men who bear responsibilities, who are leaders in enterprise, and who influence character. It is the work of true education to develop this power, to train the youth to be thinkers, and not mere reflectors of other men's thought. Instead of confining their study to that which men have said or written, let students be directed to the sources of truth, to the vast fields opened for research in nature and revelation. Let them contemplate the great facts of duty and destiny, and the mind will expand and strengthen. Instead of educated weaklings, institutions of learning may send forth men strong to think and to act, men who are masters and not slaves of circumstances, men who possess breadth of mind, clearness of thought, and the courage of their convictions. Such an education provides more than mental discipline; it provides more than physical training. It strengthens the character, so that truth and uprightness are not sacrificed to selfish desire or worldly ambition. It fortifies the mind against evil. Instead of some master passion becoming a power to destroy, every motive and desire are brought into conformity to the great principles of right. As the perfection of His character is dwelt upon, the mind is renewed, and the soul is re-created in the image of God. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>This power to choose, though limited, is still amazing. .

george · 01-16-09 6:56 pm

Don, I think we agree on the limitations of choice. Yet, the "American Dream" involves a defying of those limitations; ie. rags to riches, etc. Some people seem to be born with all the cards stacked against them and they still become successful. Part of the American Dream, not always identified, is that most successful people have experienced a "hand up" from someone, some mentor. The majority of civilization has/ has had nothing to do with the "American dream". Think beyond your own borders. As for the spirit to overcome the odds is all too familiar to me personally. My dad left Estonia at the age of 29 and had to learn Swedish and a whole new line of work; managed to work up to unit manager in a textile mill, while learning a new language at the same time; left Sweden at the age of 36 and again had to learn a new language and a new trade as we landed in Long Island, New York. All this without a "mentor". No wonder I can't just sit down and shut up. But I digress... One could add, "and where we are now," for this is the ultimate opportunity. And where we are now is dependent on where we have come from.

roca · 01-17-09 12:38 am

Hubb wrote: In His Sacrifice, Jesus "bought" back the human race. Men were now on vantage ground where they could choose the grace of God and be restored to favor with God (see 1 Cor 7:22-24). Really? who did He buy them back from, surely not Satan, did we ever cease to be God's creation and therefore His? But the last part of your sentence is accurate, because the sacrifice was all about grace and forgiveness that prompts us back to want to be reconciled with God. That takes us back to your statement about the efficacy of Christ. God was demonstrating His grace love and forgiveness, and that is the gospel of Paul. Not this substitution stuff or this idea of us being bought back. Unless of course by bought back you mean that we see God's kindness and it brings us to repentance. But then again if that is what you meant why say "bought" back, why use a metaphor to explain a simpler idea? I won't go into the fictional sacrificial system in Eden or the covenant (Gen 3:15) that is nowhere in the Bible used of the messiah. A doctrine based upon creations added to the Bible stories are generally not worth dealing with.

lijhakim · 01-17-09 1:57 am

Ron, Guess I did not need to hold my breath very long. I knew that this was coming. Here is the verse:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: . . . "For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. . . . "Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men" (1 Corinthians 7:22-23).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Genesis 1:17 indicates that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." When Adam and Eve sinned, they failed the test, they broke the specific command of God, and the law required that they die. Jesus was the law giver. He willingly gave Himself (John 10:17,18) to meet the demands of the broken law. No one was "paid." Before that day ended, Jesus came and gave them the covenant. A Redeemer was promised. Everything would be restored. Guilty man would be given a probation to learn the grace of God. But this would be only through suffering -- "thou shalt bruise his heel." The Bible frequently uses words like redeemed, restored, ransomed, and others. It is clear from this that through Jesus' sacrifice on Calvary, there was atonement for men, forgiveness, and restoration. ------------------------ Hubert F. Sturges .

lijhakim · 01-17-09 2:22 am

Ron, When Adam and Eve sinned, they lost the dominion over Creation that was given by God. This was usurped by Satan. Did God still own the world? Yes! Of course. He continued to support His creation, even when it was marred by sin. But Satan became the prince of this world, and held authority over mankind (Rom 6:16). It was only through the promise and the fact of the Cross that Satan's power could be broken. This power was given to Christ, and through the cross blessing and grace is given to man. Authority given to Christ: Romans 14:9; Heb 9:15; Revelation 5; Matt 28:18; 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 3:35; 10:17,18; 1 Cor 15:27; Eph 1:20-22; Phil 2:9; Col 2:10; Heb 1:2; 2:8; 1 Peter 3:22. Without the power of the Cross, Christ did not have authority to intervene for mankind. Could he have done so? Of course. However, God chose a different way. He chose a way that would convince men and angels that He is both merciful and just. He would preserve free choice, and preserve a love freely given. --------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

roca · 01-17-09 5:11 pm

hubb wrote: When Adam and Eve sinned, they lost the dominion over Creation that was given by God. This was usurped by Satan. Really it was given over to someone who they did not even know about. Sure does not say that in the story, says God cursed things never said they lost dominion. But of course when one reads into a story there is no end to what they can read into it. If Satan is Prince of this world then we must be his, of course that is not what the Bible indicates when it says satan is the prince of the air or the god of this world or that the pharisees are of their father satan. Though if a person pays no attention to context they could make those claims. John says Satan was condemned even before the cross event. Christ called him a liar and a murderer before the cross also. As if liars and murderers should be the lawful owner of something that is not theirs. Maybe where you are from that is how it works. I also know we were bought with a price, strange they did not say bought back with a price. But then again when you can read whatever you want into a story it is not hard to put that in there. by the way if the law required that Adam and Eve die that day then God is the liar, So your version trys to make God the liar not the serpent. You make the serpent tell the truth. Probably not so good to do the kind of reading into the story that you so often do.

john8verse32 · 01-20-09 5:08 pm

to review...CEV quotes in orange: Gen 2:15 The LORD God put the man in the Garden of Eden to take care of it and to look after it. 16But the LORD told him, "You may eat fruit from any tree in the garden, 17except the one that has the power to let you know the difference between right and wrong. If you eat any fruit from that tree, ... ....you will die before the day is over!" gen 3: The snake was sneakier than any of the other wild animals that the LORD God had made. One day it came to the woman and asked, "Did God tell you not to eat fruit from any tree in the garden?" 2The woman answered, "God said we could eat fruit from any tree in the garden, 3except the one in the middle. He told us not to eat fruit from that tree or even to touch it. If we do, we will die." 4"No, you won't!" the snake replied. 5"God understands what will happen on the day you eat fruit from that tree. You will see what you have done, and you will know the difference between right and wrong, just as God does." 6The woman stared at the fruit. It looked beautiful and tasty. She wanted the wisdom that it would give her, and she ate some of the fruit. Her husband was there with her, so she gave some to him, and he ate it too. 7Right away they saw what they had done, and they realized they were naked. Then they sewed fig leaves together to make something to cover themselves. 8Late in the afternoon a breeze began to blow, and the man and woman heard the LORD God walking in the garden. They were frightened and hid behind some trees. 9The LORD called out to the man and asked, "Where are you?" (if God is omniscient, why did He have to ask? 10The man answered, "I was naked, and when I heard you walking through the garden, I was frightened and hid!" 11"How did you know you were naked?" God asked. "Did you eat any fruit from that tree in the middle of the garden?" (isn't god omni everything? wouldn't He have already seen what happened? 12"It was the woman you put here with me," the man said. "She gave me some of the fruit, and I ate it." 13The LORD God then asked the woman, "What have you done?" "The snake tricked me," she answered. "And I ate some of that fruit." so God now punishes all snakes, not just the one that talked... and all mankind must die because Eve was "tricked"?? 14So the LORD God said to the snake: "Because of what you have done, you will be the only animal to suffer this curse-- For as long as you live, you will crawl on your stomach and eat dirt. (well....they do crawl on their stomanchs, but they do NOT EAT DIRT 15You and this woman will hate each other; true...most gals are deathly afraid of snakes... your descendants and hers will always be enemies. One of hers will strike you on the head, and you will strike him on the heel." which somehow we twist into being a prophecy of Jesus to come thousands of years laer... which the jews who wrote this, their ancient family history, still deny 16Then the LORD said to the woman, "You will suffer terribly when you give birth. But you will still desire your husband, and he will rule over you." and the ladies have been fighting that command ever since...according to the tale, the Lord was the first to put women down 17The LORD said to the man, "You listened to your wife and ate fruit from that tree. And so, the ground will be under a curse because of what you did. As long as you live, you will have to struggle to grow enough food. 18Your food will be plants, but the ground will produce thorns and thistles. 19You will have to sweat to earn a living; you were made out of soil, and you will once again turn into soil." so because a talking snake tricked Eve, mankinds work has ever after been hard? 20The man Adam [a] named his wife Eve [b] because she would become the mother of all who live. 21Then the LORD God made clothes out of animal skins for the man and his wife. so, here the Lord becomes the first killer of life??... He killed animals to make clothes 22The LORD said, "These people now know the difference between right and wrong, just as we do. But they must not be allowed to eat fruit from the tree that lets them live forever." so the Gods, plural, decide they do not want their creatures to know right from wrong, and decide to let them live a slow death... but NOT THE SAME DAY.... question: who told the truth about dying the same day? and isn't it a whole lot easier to understand this story as ancient edutainment aimed at hebrew kids around the campfire? that way one need not strain intelligent new converts credulity with talking snakes, nor brook the rage of feminists, and asuage the fears of PETA that God was the first to kill animals, when leaves or cotton or silk could have worked in the supposedly temperate climate of the Garden. (Message edited by john8verse32 on January 20, 2009)

pilgrim99 · 01-20-09 9:09 pm

John, God has a different perspective. There are many dead people walking around today. Praise be to God, that we all have the opportunity to move from death to life:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…Ephesians 2:1-3 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>My prayer is that you are indeed alive in Christ, and not a dead man walking.

maggie · 01-20-09 9:27 pm

Is God <a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anti-intellectual" target="_blank">anti-intellectual</a>?

lijhakim · 01-20-09 11:42 pm

God told Adam and Eve, "In the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." Some have interpreted this as "dying, thou shalt die." My Hebrew is a bit rusty, but there is another consideration: Before the end of that day, before the sun set, God came and gave them the covenant of redemption (Genesis 3:15). A Redeemer was promised, and Adam and Eve were given hope. Hubb

elaine · 01-21-09 12:50 am

Both the NASB and Jerusalem Bible tell Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil "for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die." Eve had not even been created when God told Adam this. Yet, Eve has been blamed for the entrance of sin. Who created the serpent? Who created sin? Was the serpent Satan? Was he cast out of heaven to the earth? If so, then who sent him to the earth and for what purpose?

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Truth What Is It?

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