Truth What Is It?

maggie · 01-24-09 3:37 pm

Ellen White was given visions by God and inspiration in other ways. The exact form of that communication I cannot vouch for, but it may have been graphical. She was then left to choose the words to give that message. Are you saying that God inspired EGW through the "graphical" words of others? Then the "graphical" words of others were also inspired, by definition. I think it's time we downgraded this whole "inspiration" thing. Ellen White's visions were pretty iffy affairs, IMO. We all have intuition. It's a downhome thing. I think we've been on a long wild goose chase, and, if you've noticed, the Lord hasn't come.

maggie · 01-24-09 3:42 pm

She was then left to choose the words to give that message...and then DENY that she got the ideas, and even, at times, the words from others. This is OK with you??? You think God sanctions such shady doings from His Prophets by continuing to inspire them for decades. Such low standards you attribute to God, I must say.... Truth, What Is It? indeed....

lijhakim · 01-24-09 4:21 pm

Maggie, In vision, Ellen White saw events through her eyes. Then it was left to her to find words to describe them. In borrowing words previously written, she was not copying anyone. The other writer had his own message to convey. Ellen White had her message, often quite different, but the words helped to express what she wanted to say. In every comparison that I have seen, she had made significant changes in the wording and has made the message uniquely her own. So Walter Rae started off the investigations of EGW? Maybe he did, but I doubt it. She has had to face opposition right from the first. What we see in the present day opposition is not new, though it probably is more intense and generalized. Many of the prophets of the Bible also had to face opposition, even prison and death. So what is new? The Lord hasn't come yet? Have you ever heard of a "conditional prophecy?" Since 1844 there have been several times when conditions developed that showed that the Second Coming was near. In each case Satan was able to turn the church so that Jesus delayed again. Another issue regarding the "food for worms" event was that it was said by an angel, not Jesus Himself. Convincing? No. Illuminating? Probably not. Most on this forum are more knowledgeable than I am. Its just that I believe. Hubb

heipauli · 01-24-09 5:03 pm

Hubb, religious freedom means just that you have the right of believing anything you fancy. And there is no need to make excuses. Even if you believed in the Great Pumpkin or Santa Claus, you deserve no ridicule. Such is the nature of religion and freedom of religious beliefs. As long as you do not claim that your faith is based on Bible... But when you are dealing with medicine, you are not supposed to believe on whatever you like. And I rely on your professionality. Pauli

maggie · 01-24-09 5:39 pm

I know that you believe, Hubb. As Pauli said, believe whatever you fancy. I respect that. When you commence to rationalizing your beliefs is when I feel compelled to point out the dismal picture of a God with shoddy standards you are painting, Hubb, my dear friend. I think God doesn't require such desperate defenses, and it's a pity that Ellen White apparently does, if her authority is to be preserved. So it's OK if the angel gets the prophecy wrong, but it's not OK if Jesus got it wrong? What if the angel she was listening to was from The Dark Side, and that's why the prophecy was wrong? How would we know? How would she know? How would we know that her visions of Jesus were really Jesus, for that matter? Maybe she was a trance channel, for all we really know. If a person has a vision from God, it just doesn't make sense that she has to pore over old books to find words to express it. It just doesn't add up. Believing is one thing, fracturing your mind to rationalize what you believe is tragic and socially harmful, I believe. That's the only reason I talk about it, Hubb. It's not personal about you or anyone else. God gave us our minds, and it's a sacrilege to put them to use justifying dishonesty. You never, ever deal with the fact that Ellen White denied copying, Hubb. Big elephant in living room. But you know I love ya, I hope.

lijhakim · 01-24-09 6:28 pm

Pauli, what part of my belief is not based on the Bible? I need more than a general assumption. Maggie, Ellen did not deny using the words of others. As to how close this is to copying is the issue. Maybe you could give us a comparison of her writing and of the person she "copied" from. Hubb

bob · 01-24-09 6:36 pm

I too have a very high regard for Hubert. I know what he is made of. He was wise in choosing a mate too. I also admire the fact that he is willing to stand up for someone who he has such a love for. It is shocking to find out that what we thought was something so special has been reduced to wanting much. I remember back in the early 80s and I was visiting my son in Texas. He and a group of other Adventists were studying Sister White's plagiarizing and other facts. I wouldn't have any part of all that and had him take me to the airport so that I could fly home early. I wouldn't listen to anyone who found any fault in her. I had bought in hook, line and sinker. Now I am open to the Holy Spirit's calling. He has shown me so much. I now trust in scripture only. The key to salvation and Christian living is there in its purity. So, do we need Mrs. White in order to find Jesus and live a Christian life. I would unequivocally say no, unless we have some desire to believe the doctrines she put her stamp on that can't be proved scripturally. Bob

maggie · 01-24-09 6:40 pm

Maggie, Ellen did not deny using the words of others. Are you serious? <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/5/245.gif" alt="blink"> Maybe you could give us a comparison of her writing and of the person she "copied" from. I've done that probably dozens of times, color coded, too.

bob · 01-24-09 6:54 pm

Hubert, I think what is more damning to Mrs. White than plagiarizing are the many false claims, Biblical statements that don't' add up and many more facts that have come to light in the last few years.

lijhakim · 01-24-09 7:07 pm

Maggie, If you have done this before, could you refer me to those places so that I can see what it looks like? Bob, I do not deny the possibility that Mrs. White made mistakes. She never claimed infallibility. The mistakes that I have seen discussed on this forum do not change the messages that God gave through her. Do we need Ellen White to find Jesus and live a Christian life? No, I don't think so. What I do believe is that she was given for two main reasons: 1)to give us information that would keep us from being deceived. A "for instance" here is the belief that is gaining ground that Islam is the "King of the North." From the Book of Daniel supported by Ellen White, this is not so. 2)Ellen White gives us more details on the significance of the OT sanctuary services. These point to the heavenly priestly ministry of Jesus Christ. With Ellen White's encouragement, we have made a study of these things, which point forward to a pre-advent judgment, and what God's people need to do at this time. ------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

maggie · 01-24-09 7:20 pm

Maggie, If you have done this before, could you refer me to those places so that I can see what it looks like? Sure, Hubb - lots of times on atomorrow.com. Have to get ready & go somewhere right now. I'll see what I can find later, or maybe just create some new ones. I just want to say this, Hubb, and I don't mean to be hurtful, but if it were demonstrated that Ellen White got her visions while smoking weed, I expect y'all would set to work showing how Isaiah and Moses and Paul...maybe even Jesus...smoked weed for inspiration. That's just how it all comes across to me. You just gotta protect her.

maggie · 01-24-09 7:52 pm

Just gotta post this example of strained reasoning on the Net:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Brother Rea takes the position that passages which are substantially similar in Sister's books and other books in her library were paraphrased by Sister. Brother Rea offers no proofs that the language employed by Sister White did not come directly from the angel. <a href="http://whereholyfeethavetrod.blogspot.com/2008/12/ellen-white-plagiarism-and-adventist.html" target="_blank">http://whereholyfeethavetrod.blogspot.com/2008/12/ ellen-white-plagiarism-and-adventist.html</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>The Angel did it. Well, he could have, and you can't prove he didn't. See, the very fact that people will do such a thing to their own minds in order to, as Pauli put it, save their sanity, tells me that something is very, very out of balance. EGW has "inspired" people to do violence to their own minds to protect her "Truth." IMO.

elaine · 01-24-09 10:34 pm

If you have done this before, could you refer me to those places so that I can see what it looks like? Hubb, Maggs and others here have done this repeatedly. Where have you been? It was done by Rea, Veltman, Adams, and many others. Someone who truly wanted that information should have no trouble recalling the hundreds of postings here in the past. The archives should be accessible in case you do not recdall any of them.

lijhakim · 01-24-09 11:37 pm

Maggie, I looked at that website. It certainly does NOT support the attacks against Ellen White. If anything it supports the inspiration of her ministry. --------------------- CONSIDER THE PROPHET Did she plagiarize? "Any ideas or materials taken from another source for either written or oral use must be fully acknowledged, unless the information is common knowledge." Sister seems to have read a lot of books. Even had a personal library. Some of the ideas in her own work are similar to the ideas in the books. Much of what she wrote concerned the plan of salvation and the life and work of Jesus Christ. This information is common knowledge. Accordingly, to the extent that Sister drew such ideas and materials from another source, no acknowledgment was required. A lot of the information written up by Sister came from angels and visions. Sister generally acknowledged the source of her inspiration, with terms like "I was shown", or the angel said, etc. Brother Rea takes the position that large portions of Sister's books were direct quotations or paraphrases from authors in her personal library. Neither Scriven or Rea offer any proof that the words did not come directly from the angel. ZERO proof. We consider this verbatim citation from Brother Rea: "The thoughtful guesswork of other uncredited authors pervades Ellen White’s most appreciated works—contributing unwittingly to the making of this prophet. Here is one such contribution from William Hannah: They were practised hands that navigated this boat, who knew well the lake in all its moods, not open to unreasonable fear; but now fear comes upon them, and they are ready to give up all hope. Where all this while is he at whose bidding they had embarked? They had been too busy for the time with the urgent work required by the sudden squall, to think of him; the mantle of the night’s thick darkness may have hidden him from their view. (emphasis supplied)20 This is how Ellen White used his contribution in Desire of Ages: Those hardy fishermen had spent their lives upon the lake, and had guided their craft safely through many a storm; but now their strength and skill availed nothing. They were helpless in the grasp of the temptest, and hope failed them.... they remembered at whose command they had set out to cross the sea.... But the dense darkness hid Him from their sight. (emphasis supplied)21 It would require books to produce all the instances of Ellen White’s unacknowledged source usage represented as special inspiration. But church leaders exhibit no shame for their continuing efforts toward the making and maintaining of the prophet; even though it has become increasingly obvious that the Seventh-day Adventist church made Sister White as much as Sister White made the Seventh-day Adventist church." (Walter Rea, The Making of a Prophet, Adventist Currents, March 1987) Hmm m m m m. "This is how Ellen White used his contribution in Desire of Ages". Really now? Any proof. Does Mr. Rea provide even a shred of evidence that the wording there did not come from the angel? And if the same angel happened to have given the same or similar information to another author, or authors, years before? What could Sister do about that? And this is the tragedy of the denial community. M. Rea went to the work of gathering 21 quotes for the above-cited article. Most were relevant, but none were material. He didn't prove copying, let alone plagiarism. Paraphrasing the words, ideas, opinions, or theories of others, whether oral or written; Brother Rea takes the position that passages which are substantially similar in Sister's books and other books in her library were paraphrased by Sister. Brother Rea offers no proofs that the language employed by Sister White did not come directly from the angel. SISTER NOT GUILTY OF PLAGIARISM Sister has clean hands. But then again, maybe Dr. Scriven does too? Maybe he gets his great insights in dreams of the night season? Or from interpretation of bird songs? OR MAYBE NOT. We've proven a number of severe errors in Dr. Scriven's writing: Abomination of Desolation Settles Upon Holy Place - Ellen White drunk From Self-hating Gays to Self-hating Adventists Why They Cannot Enter the Kingdom Or, as Dr. Roy Gane at Andrews put it: "Give me a break, Chuck! Disagree if you like, but try to accurately represent what I say. You grossly distort my article" (Dr. Roy Gane, Posted by: Roy Gane | 13 September 2006 at 13:45, Wow! The professor running the graduate-level programs at the SDA Theological Seminary has to tell Dr. Scriven to try to be truthful. This article is abridged and abstracted. It seems to support Ellen White in her ministry, not to deprecate her. HFS. ----------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

maggie · 01-25-09 12:09 am

Maggie, I looked at that website. It certainly does NOT support the attacks against Ellen White. If anything it supports the inspiration of her ministry. Hubb, I posted that quote because of the type of reasoning the writer used to "support" Ellen White. I'll post my quote again:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Brother Rea takes the position that passages which are substantially similar in Sister's books and other books in her library were paraphrased by Sister. Brother Rea offers no proofs that the language employed by Sister White did not come directly from the angel. <a href="http://whereholyfeethavetrod.blogspot.com/2008/12/%20ellen-white-plagiarism-and-adventist.html" target="_blank">http://whereholyfeethavetrod.blogspot.com/2008/12/ ellen-white-plagiarism-and-adventist.html</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Do you really think it likely that the angel spoke to Ellen White in such a way that it could be confused with plagiarism of previous nineteenth-century writing? Does this not strike you as absurd?

bob · 01-25-09 2:01 am

Hubert, again you admit Mrs. White made mistakes. Are you gifted to know which are mistakes and which are truth. Is the IJ truth? Is the story given by her after she accused Dr. Kellogg of building a large building in Chicago true or was it a cover up? Did Jesus go into the Father, after the fall, 3 times and plead with Him to allow Jesus to come to Earth to redeem us? Was the tower of Babel built to escape another flood? Did Mrs. White tell a group of people in 1856 that Jesus would come back before some of them died? Did she tell them the angel told her it was a conditional "I saw"? Tom and I have shown that the Adventist modified tithing system is not Biblical yet the church continues teaching it as being Biblical. Does it continue out of ignorance, not caring what scripture teaches or because Mrs White put her stamp on the system with a "I was shown". How about the two accounts of the Israel Damman episode. Wetnesses had one story and Ellen had one that told of supernatural happenings. I wonder why God would be interested in intervening for people who were crawling around on the floor like dogs and shouting so that neighbors were disturbed? Why would God keep Israel from being taken from the meeting only to later let them take him. And it is later stated that Mrs. White denounced him. That story of hers doesn't make any sense. Bob Again, if she made mistakes in her "I was shown" visions can we trust her? Are prophets reliable who keep making mistakes? Bob

lijhakim · 01-25-09 2:49 am

Bob, you make a good case. You have room to doubt. Maybe it is time to not think about it. Maggie, That website was a bit confusing. It pointed out the problems with Rae and Scriven and not much else. I don't see any problem with the angel talking to Ellen White. Angels talked to people a number of times in the Bible, and probably a number of times since. So where is the issue? As I said to Bob, you have room to doubt and I will respect that. I am still looking forward to a visit with you over authentic Ethiopian food, probably the evening of April 2. Hubb

heipauli · 01-25-09 5:06 am

Hubb, it was a short message, in this case missing one word. I should have said that your faith is not based on Bible ALONE. IOW, you have an extrabiblical authority, too. I do not maintain that you are aware of the fact, but fact it is. That is the only possible explanation, because in all other aspects of life you seem to be rational. In addition to that, many of us are have been in the same boat, so we recongnize the "symptoms and signs". I had an extrabiblical authority for about 40 years (c. 30 years, if they are counted from the year i was baptized). I have found texts I wrote while trying to defend adventism. Reading them makes me embarrassed. How could I be so illogical? How could I be so programmed? More later. I just woke up...

heipauli · 01-25-09 8:35 am

Hubb, you pose an ethical problem to me. As those who participated in the discussions at Atoday forum may remember, I at least once told as my opinion that converting a person older than 70 years could be unethical. That 70 plus minus some years is an average and is based on my experiences of Finnish material. Here people may grow mentally old sooner than for example in United States. So there the figure could be somewhat higher than here. The is a saying that one should not change horses while crossing a river. Applied to convictions that means that one should not change one's conviction, if one has not time enough left to get a new conviction. And that applies even to blatantly false convictions. Accordingly I would not try to make a 80y person to abandon his/her Mormonism etc. One exception comes to my mind: There is no back limit for converting an atheist to generic Christianity. That is not so traumatic, after all ;-) Consequently, if one abandons his/her conviction and is unable to get a new one, one has no firm ground under him/herself, a situation both painful and even dangerous. The dilemma I - maybe some other people with me - face, is that OTOH we have no right to try to convert you, but OTOH we are unwilling to leave those people reading these pages but not writing here, under impression that your convictions were automatically correct. So we are, at least I am, between rock and hard place.

george · 01-25-09 8:58 am

About the title of this thread (what is truth?)- Perhaps truth is not the same for each person. Truth has a context - a history in each of us. Given the background for each person, maybe truth looks different when compared but, not so different where it counts. Does it really matter, SO MUCH, whether a person takes a train or a bus to get to his destination? Is it "truth" that must be found, or a faith, also dubbed as a relationship? Granted, if one's faith/relationship is based on faulty information that relationship will suffer. However, how many of us have the whole "truth"? Aren't all our "truths" faulty (incomplete) to some degree? Must we find the whole truth without error before we fold our tents and exit? Maybe we shouldn't dwell so much on Biblical information about non-essential things and share the positives we have. This forum is good at tearing down, but not so hot about building up (the criticism applied to myself as well). OK, some of us need crutches to get through this life - crutches in the form ecclesiastical dogma. Others need freedom of thought to discover what is meaningful. The ideal end product, it seems, would be a life lived in pursuit of truth, rather than the clutching on to fragments of it, while tearing the other guy's faith into shreds. ...just thinking out loud...

george · 01-25-09 9:06 am

...further I guess it's about respect. But it is hard to discuss repectfully when both sides believe they have the whole truth and the other guy has to give it up.

maggie · 01-25-09 9:16 am

Sirje, I always go back to the kids and what the kind of thinking they encounter in Adventism does to them. Better to tear people's faith to shreds if it's harming children than to derail the right of children to healthy development. Dismantling absurd reasoning is an investment in the children. On the evening of April 2 I look forward to having a lovely, friendly dinner with Hubb and his wife. This things I say to him about his thinking processes, which are pretty much the norm in a vast portion of Adventism, have nothing to do with how I feel about him as a person. Hubb is one of my favorite people in the world. That doesn't mean I'm going let it pass when he thinks that angels might speak as if they were reading from 19th century books. Hubb, I'm not talking about angels talking to people in general. I'm talking about an angel who seemed to get his material from 19th century writing. Does this not strike you as absurd? No need to answer if you don't want to, of course, but I have to ask. (Message edited by maggie on January 25, 2009)

george · 01-25-09 10:52 am

Maggie, Yes, of course - the children; but Pauli was talking about getting to the point when there is no longer time to develop an alternative to what needs to be put aside. That's a problem I have encountered myself. I no longer feel the SDA church is a family, given all that has been discussed here and the distrust I have about a self-serving theology; but I have a grandson who needs direction. Where do we go? We are all on a journey and some of us are further down the road, or on a different road. Can we then, usurp the other guys need to journey at his own pace? It took both of us some time to get where we are. I have no answers - just wondering.

bob_2 · 01-25-09 12:54 pm

Maggie, you would have a lot more peace of mind if you considered EGW irrelevant, no matter what Hubb or the SDA church claim. The Bible was to be the test EGW wanted all to use for her words, when in doubt. Study the Bible, get discernment by that study, so you are not blown by every wind of doctrine. What is literal, what is metaphorical, how does it all fit together. Hubb makes some things up as he goes. The everlasting covenant, the name of his forum, is never spoken of as he speaks of it, except in EGW. He has a vested interest in her inspiration, with all due respect, Hubb. The Gospel is presented: 1. Abrahamic Promise 2. 1st Covenant - now obsolete and fulfilled by Christ. 3. 2nd Covenant - full of better promises. The Gospel is Truth, understand it and believe it and you have life.

lijhakim · 01-25-09 1:31 pm

Pauli, About your ethical problem with me: I appreciate your concern about "messing with my mind." On the other hand, if you read your last two posts to me, you did not give me any argument or evidence for discussion or on which to make a decision. Except that you indicated that my faith was not based on the Bible ALONE. No one lives in a vacuum. Are you not influenced by others? Preachers? Friends? Even others on this forum? As to EGW, as you know when I present arguments, I use the Bible ALONE for evidence. If I am influenced by others, the question is not about that "other source" but rather is what I present true. Remember, EGW was true at least part of the time. I think every fair person would recognize that. You can say the same about the Buddhists, Hindus, Mormons, Catholics, other Protestants, etc. The issues most people have with EGW are the "visions." On this I believe she is true. I believe that God gave her visions and messages in a supernatural manner. Some of the material in those messages goes against the grain of the sinful nature. For this, a prophet is usually unpopular. Yet, the prophet is called upon to reprove sin, which is a difficult task. It is not fun to be a prophet. I do not ask anyone else to agree with me regarding EGW. If anything, I ask only that they be fair. This is very difficult for some. These some often have "visceral feelings" about EGW arising out of childhood experiences, or from traumatic confrontations with "believers." These are unfortunate, and will continue. What I do suggest is that a person lay those issues to rest. Keep eyes open. In time God will bring about conditions in the religious world that will help to clarify things. ---------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

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