Journal

don · 09-27-09 7:05 am

The intention of this thread is to encourage personal reflections on the day.

don · 09-27-09 7:36 am

September 26, 2009 Moammar Gadhafi cancels Canada visit<blockquote>CTV News Libyan Leader Moammar Gadhafi has cancelled a trip to Canada that had been scheduled for next week, according to media reports. Gadhafi had planned the stop-over in St. John's, N.L., on his way home from his speech to the United Nations General Assembly last Wednesday, a wide-ranging rant that lasted more than 90 minutes. The Canadian Press says the African strongman was planning to stay in the city early next week, and local officials were prepping to put up one of the leader's famed Bedouin tents. ... Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon had planned to meet Gadhafi to voice Canada's disappointment over the welcome Libya extended to Abdel Baset al-Megrahi, who was released from prison on compassionate grounds despite his role in the Lockerbie bombing. Alessandro Bruno, the deputy editor of the North Africa Journal told CTV News Channel that he believed Gadhafi cancelled the trip because of Cannon's planned rebuke. Bruno said Gadhafi needs photo ops aimed at citizens in Africa and that Cannon's rebuke would go against the image the Libyan leader wanted to deliver. "He needs the pomp and circumstance, something he can show to his people that he's a great respected leader," Bruno said. "Gadhafi expects to be treated like a world leader of great importance." The full news item can be found at: <a href="http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090926/gadhafi_canada_090926/20090926?hub=TopStories" target=_top>http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNew s/20090926/gadhafi_canada_090926/20090926?hub=TopS tories</a></blockquote> Further Reading<blockquote>Gaddafi Tent: Bedford Orders Work To Be Stopped On Libyan Dictator's Tent At Donald Trump Estate <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/22/gaddafi-on-donald-trump-e_n_294876.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/22/gaddafi-o n-donald-trump-e_n_294876.html</a></blockquote>Comments<blockquote>Compare how Gadhafi is being treated by some nations with how the apostle Paul says to shun professed Christians who live sinful lifestyles, see 1 Corinthians 5 and 6. Some forms of shunning upset our sensibilities. Jehovah's Witnesses seem to practice an extreme form of shunning, as do the Amish? But, when we consider the shunning Gadhafi has gotten, perhaps we understand better.</blockquote>

don · 09-27-09 2:49 pm

September 27, 2009 Science aspiring to religion This is a light-hearted opinion piece examining the 150th of Darwin's Origin of the Species. The author recommends a book called <a href="http://www.hup.harvard.edu/features/darwin/annotated.html" target="_blank">The Annotaded Origin</a>. He does so because it reveals the "human" Darwin.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:What emerges from it is a very personal Darwin, who has had his "eureka!" in observing self-evident principles of microevolution, and is genuinely convinced they must apply also on the macroevolutionary scale... This is, throughout, science aspiring to religion, but in the time immediately before it sutured itself with atheist smugness. It is science still alive to the possibility of major discovery; not the "settled science" of Darwinist orthodoxy with which our schoolchildren are pumped. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>He finishes his opinion piece with an interesting comment.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:A dirty little heretical secret is almost out, within biology itself: that macroevolution works on different, and quite opposite principles from microevolution, and must do, or all species would be in constant flux and slur. And when that penny falls, we will again have the Darwinian excitement. <a href="http://www.canada.com/life/Science+aspiring+religion/2038848/story.html" target=_top>http://www.canada.com/life/Science+aspiring+religi on/2038848/story.html</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Does this offhand comment reflect recent scientific thinking? .

don · 09-27-09 3:23 pm

When Religion Is Involved, a Game Is Just That By GEORGE VECSEY, New York Times Published: September 26, 2009 (This column, also light-hearted, gives some interesting facts about the observance of major holy days in major league sports; mostly from a Jewish perspective.) <blockquote>This is a most wonderful gesture, having the Yankees and the Red Sox play at 1 p.m. on Sunday. It could even be the start of something better. Instead of putting the game at 8 p.m. — prime time, as the networks call it — ESPN and Major League Baseball are accommodating thousands of fans who at sundown will be observing Yom Kippur, the most solemn day in the Jewish calendar. Not only that, but the N.F.L. has allowed both New York teams to play at 1 on Sunday — Jets at home, Giants on the road — just to get the tackling and selling and screaming over before sundown. These admirable tweaks in the schedule raise the vestigial memory of simpler times, when there was a break in the action, when people stayed home, turned down the tempo. Nowadays, there is always action on the tube, somebody hurtling into somebody else, kick-boxing in Asia, soccer in Europe, dunking in America. When exactly is that day of rest, that hour of peace? One of the most beautiful sights in my neighborhood is on High Holy Days when people walk to temple. Not only does this bring the traditional legendary weather, but it gives off a psychic signal to slow down. I felt the same way during Ramadan when I watched a Pakistani tennis player who felt he could not fast during the United States Open but respected his friends who were going without water during daylight. Piety can be contagious. How far can contemporary big-bucks sports go toward a simpler time? A century ago, Christy Mathewson would not pitch on the Christian Sabbath. In Philadelphia, major league ball was banned on Sundays until 1934, but blue laws are not coming back. Besides, moving up Sunday sports events to 1 only raises the temptation to skip church. Everybody knows that in a complicated, diverse, secular nation, observance is ultimately a personal decision. If Sandy Koufax and Hank Greenberg did not play in the World Series on Yom Kippur, fans could afford to skip one Yankees-Red Sox game, which just may be a prelude to a championship series in a few weeks. And at the rate these blokes play, with three minutes of commercials every half-inning, what is the guarantee that the Yankees and the Red Sox will be done by sundown? But these adjustments by baseball and football are serious statements. Last April, the Jets’ owner, Woody Johnson, requested that his team’s home game Sunday against the Tennessee Titans be moved to 1 from 4:15. Commissioner Roger Goodell and Howard Katz, the league’s senior vice president for broadcasting, moved up the game, even though it conflicted with the Giants’ game at Tampa Bay. Katz thinks this is the first time the Jets and the Giants have been on at the same time since 1984. He also had to move the Steelers-Bengals game back to 4:15, and is well aware there are Jewish fans in those cities, too. He is grateful Yom Kippur falls on Sunday irregularly. Baseball also revised its schedule. Last December, when the 2009 schedule was released, ESPN executives put a big circle around the Yankees-Red Sox game. But this summer, Representative Anthony D. Weiner, the Democrat whose district covers parts of Brooklyn and Queens, reminded the powers of the overlap. “I was upset about it,” said Commissioner Bud Selig, who recalled conflicts with other networks when he was the owner of the Milwaukee Brewers. This time, he had a nice conversation with George Bodenheimer, the president of ESPN and ABC Sports. “Leaders in the Jewish community contacted us,” said Len DeLuca, the senior vice president for programming and acquisitions at ESPN. DeLuca noted that Yankees-Red Sox games had put up some of the highest ratings for the network but added, “This is the most solemn holiday in a religion.” So ESPN moved the game. “Does it cost us money? No,” DeLuca said. “Does it hurt us in the ratings? Yes. But look at it this way, table tennis is thrilled to have the Yankees and Red Sox as a lead-in.” DeLuca added that in the future, “you can be sure, baseball teams will be looking at all the holidays.” Baseball cannot avoid conflicts. Games are played on Good Friday, the most solemn day on the Christian calendar. On Oct. 2, 1978, they played on Rosh Hashana, and Bucky Dent hit one into the screen at Fenway Park. Supply your own moral. One year, baseball did get a message from on high. In 1986, the geniuses scheduled two Mets-Astros postseason games, for the night and next afternoon of Yom Kippur. Yours truly predicted a downpour of Biblical proportions, which in fact occurred, postponing the afternoon game. They got what they deserved. Last year, the Tampa Bay Rays made it into the postseason for the first time, but a potential fifth and deciding game was scheduled for Yom Kippur. “The way I run my life, there was no decision to be made,” the team owner, Stuart Sternberg, said the other day. He was prepared to attend services, but the Rays won in four games, on their sweet run to the World Series. “We’re not going to be able to do this all the time,” Sternberg said the other day, acknowledging that baseball may accommodate Jewish fans in the Northeast but not Jewish fans in Chicago or Los Angeles. For fans who may have to miss a game because of religious conflicts, Sternberg offered some advice, “It’s not the end of the world.” There is only one word to add to that: Amen. E-mail: <a href="mailto:geovec@nytimes.com">geovec@nytimes.com</a> <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/sports/27vecsey.html?em" target=_top>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/sports/27vecsey. html?em</a> </blockquote>

elaine · 09-27-09 10:27 pm

"science aspiring to religion." Is that not like "religion aspiring to be science?

don · 09-28-09 1:06 am

"science aspiring to religion." Yes. I thought it was interesting that the columnist should state it thus. Throughout his presentation he works the science as religion concept. Notice some of his other use of phrases: <blockquote>The idea behind almost all of the public events (of Darwin's 150th) has been to propagandize for atheism -- to drive into the thick skulls of common folk that their religious beliefs are primitive, irrational and highly unfashionable; that the "cool kids" are all strict "scientific materialists." The frustration of the Darwinists is understandable. Many of them are unhappy university professors, deep in the suspicion that the world is ignoring them. Their superior intellects are not properly acknowledged; their own students sometimes jest behind their backs. Yet the importance of their enterprise is reflected in the number of polls that have been commissioned, showing that after decades, or rather, generations of Darwinist indoctrination, large sections of the public -- not only in Red State America, but in Europe and everywhere -- still don't "get it." They still think nature is full of teleological surprises; that man, all life and the universe itself are expressive of some mysterious purposeful order. How can they be so stupid? How can they not see that all these things were created by Nothing? Such polls give the whole game away: for they are tests not of what people know, but of what they believe. Behind them lies the idea that the purpose of education is to inculcate "correct" beliefs and opinions, as opposed to teaching the subject and letting the students come to their own conclusions. Indeed, for Darwinist true believers, as for progressives generally, the worst setbacks come in the moments of greatest advance. ... In the case of Darwin Year, as in progressive politics, that moment has now passed. If people still don't "get" the message of Richard Dawkins -- that "There is no God, and Darwin is his prophet" -- they never will. The nature presented to their senses will continue to be implicit with purpose: with means and ends working forward, in a scandalously non-random manner. As I've written before, more than once, I have no objection to Darwin himself, only to the use of him as atheist idol and patron. He did not ask for that role, and the more familiar with his writings that religious readers become, the less fear he can inspire. Indeed, this is why Darwin Year is counterproductive for the proselytizing atheists: for Darwin himself becomes exposed. ... It (Darwin's evolutionary model) is a Darwin charged with a vision of nature "rising" from lower to higher, from simpler to more complex, by some inevitable principle of progress, yet constantly slapping himself to realize that he must avoid teleological explanations. It is a Darwin frustrated, longing for faith and, to the end, a lovable but quite typical Victorian liberal. He becomes a creature in his own menage. This is, throughout, science aspiring to religion, but in the time immediately before it sutured itself with atheist smugness. It is science still alive to the possibility of major discovery; not the "settled science" of Darwinist orthodoxy with which our schoolchildren are pumped. A dirty little heretical secret is almost out, within biology itself: that macroevolution works on different, and quite opposite principles from microevolution, and must do, or all species would be in constant flux and slur. And when that penny falls, we will again have the Darwinian excitement. <a href="http://www.canada.com/life/Science+aspiring+religion/2038848/story.html" target=_top>http://www.canada.com/life/Science+aspiring+religi on/2038848/story.html</a></blockquote> (Message edited by Don on September 28, 2009)

don · 09-28-09 8:59 am

Embryo Mix-Up Woman Gives Birth, Faces Heartbreak Ahead <blockquote>It's every woman's worst nightmare -- her baby switched at birth -- but in this high-tech reproductive age, the mistake happened in utero. Carolyn Savage, who gave birth to a healthy boy Thursday at St. Vincent Mercy Medical Center in Toledo, Ohio, has been carrying Shannon Morell's son for nine months. Last February, the two mothers, both hoping for another child, were cruelly surprised when the fertilized embryo from one woman was implanted in the womb of the other. The bittersweet story comes on the heels of the shutdown Friday of an in vitro fertilization center at Ochsner Hospital in Elmwood, La., due to a possible mix-up in the labeling of frozen embryos. In the loosely regulated world of assisted reproduction, the mix-up between Savage and Morell is less surprising than the civility and kindness demonstrated by two families who faced a heartbreaking decision: Who were the rightful parents? Because of her Catholic religious beliefs, Savage, a 40-year-old mother of two from Sylvania, Ohio, agreed not to abort and to give the baby back to its biological mother. After the birth, Savage and her husband Sean congratulated the biological parents, Paul and Shannon Morell of Sterling Heights, Mich. But the unintended surrogates then asked for privacy, saying in a prepared statement, "Our family is going through a difficult time." "We're trying to look at it as a gift for another family that eight months ago we didn't know," she said only a week earlier. "We will wonder about this child every day for the rest of our life." For the rest of the story: <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/unintended-surrogate-mom-wrong-embryo-faces-heartbreak-birth/story?id=8675885" target=_top>http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MindMoodNews/unintend ed-surrogate-mom-wrong-embryo-faces-heartbreak-bir th/story?id=8675885</a> </blockquote>Comment<blockquote>Human error saved by human decency.</blockquote>

don · 09-28-09 5:12 pm

Embryo Mix-Up I used this story in my Grade 11 class today and asked my students to respond to it, telling their thoughts. After reading their responses, I will attempt to report their thinking on this thread. The story certainly caught their attention. One student noted that the TV program "Private Practice" presented a similar dilemma. .

elaine · 09-28-09 5:13 pm

It was a heart-warming story. Similar to the mothers' whose babies were mixed at the hospital and they took home the other mother's baby. How about surrogate mothers who are willing to carry other parents' embryo? Is this not a most wonderful gift? Some few years ago a mother carried her daughter's embryo; and there have been similar stories of the new techniques enabling parenthood. Not all I could condone, but it is the individuals' choices.

don · 09-29-09 7:25 am

Cheerleaders’ religious signs draw fire By: Ben Benton <blockquote>Community members are rallying around Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe High School cheerleaders after they were banned from displaying signs with Bible verses urging fans and players to “commit to the Lord” and “take courage and do it.” The banners — the paper ones that football players crash through at the beginning of games — have been common sights in the school’s football stadium since 2003, local officials say. “The cheerleaders are not trying to push a religious cause, to shove religion down someone’s throat,” said local youth minister Brad Scott, who was LFO High’s class president in 2004. “The cheerleaders are just using Scripture to show motivation and inspiration to the players and the fans.” Catoosa County Schools spokeswoman Marissa Brower said a Fort Oglethorpe resident lodged a verbal complaint to Superintendent Denia Reese last week, saying that the display of a Bible verse on the football field is a violation of federal law. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/87/1932.jpg" alt=""> 9/18/09 At a football game on the school's field, cheerleaders at Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe High School hold up a sign with a Biblical verse on it. After a complaint last week, the school has banned the cheerleaders from using any more signs with religious statements on them, saying it violates the U.S. Constitution. A school system statement released Monday said the message constitutes “a violation of the First Amendment of the Constitution for signs with Bible verses to be displayed on the football field.” Mr. Scott said the ban prompted a rally tonight in support of the cheerleaders outside the Chick-fil-A restaurant on Battlefield Parkway so people can show their support for the cheerleaders and their signs. A Facebook page called “We Support the LFO Cheerleaders! LET THEM HAVE THEIR SIGNS BACK!” also has been established. Mrs. Reese lends her personal appreciation, if not her official support. “I regret that we had to ask the LFO cheerleaders to change the signs used in the stadium prior to football games,” Mrs. Reese states. “Personally, I appreciate this expression of their Christian values; however, as superintendent I have the responsibility of protecting the school district from legal action by groups who do not support their beliefs.” An area outside the stadium has been designated so the signs can be used there, she said. “I rely on reading the Bible daily, and I would never deny our students the opportunity to express their religious beliefs,” she said. “I appreciate that our community has rallied in support of this LFO tradition.” Fort Oglethorpe Mayor Ronnie Cobb vehemently disagrees with the ban and said he’ll call on the City Council to support the cheerleaders and their signs. The signs don’t infringe on anyone’s religious rights and are good for school spirit, he said. “I’m totally against them doing away with it,” Mr. Cobb said, adding that the cheerleaders’ rights are being abused. The mayor said football coach John Allen made the signs a tradition around 2003 and it has continued ever since. “If it’s offensive to anyone, let them go watch another football game,” he said. “Nobody’s forced to come there and nobody’s forced to read the signs.” Current head football coach Todd Windham said the school system must obey the law, despite everyone’s opinions. “Just my standpoint, I thought the banners were unique,” Mr. Windham said. “I really feel for the girls who prepare the banners and I think they really do a good job. They prepare a whole season’s worth during the summer and they put in a lot of work on those.” However, officials say the school system’s position centers on the trust between students’ parents and what the system teaches. “Families entrust public schools with the education of their children, but condition their trust on the understanding that school activities will not purposely be used to advance religious views that may conflict with their religious beliefs,” the system’s release states. “As a result, the courts prohibit rabbi-led prayers at school sporting events, Wiccan posters in gymnasiums and reading the Quran over the school public announcement system.” Catoosa officials say the U.S. Supreme Court has “ruled that religious activities at high school football games create the ‘inescapable conclusion’ that the school endorses the religious activity.” Such violations open the system to “lawsuits resulting in injunctions, unnecessary legal costs and damages that have to be paid by the local taxpayers, and possibly the loss of federal funding,” according to the statement. Mr. Scott said the “separation of church and state” has nothing to do with cheerleaders who are not “part of the state” and simply want to offer an inspirational message with signs they made on their own time. Mr. Scott, who ministers to some of the cheerleaders who attend his church, said the most recent sign he saw quoting from Timothy 1:7 could be considered inspirational in many settings. “All those words; ‘power, love, self-discipline’ can be applied to the game, encourage the players and show school spirit,” he said. Local resident and 1992 LFO alum Jeremy Jones called the decision “premature.” “To act on the complaint of one person ... seems premature,” Mr. Jones said. “The cheerleaders have raised their own money for this project and have worked hard to make these signs.” Several players were upset by the ruling and decided to hold a team prayer after they took the field last week, Mr. Windham said. “That was something new, but it was something they wanted to do to show support for the cheerleaders,” he said. Following each game there is a player-led prayer, he said, but under their interpretation of the law, the coaches cannot lead a prayer. Staff Writer Lyndsey Young contributed to this story. If you have photos of Bible verses at LFO football games send them to <a href="mailto:dbarry@timesfreepress.com">dbarry@timesfreepress.com</a> <a href="http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2009/sep/29/cheerleaders-religious-signs-draw-fire/" target="_blank">http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2009/sep/29/cheerleaders-religious-signs-draw-fire/</a></blockquote>Comments It makes sense, not just in America, for the secular authorities to be neutral about religion. This includes not endorsing and/or supporting particular religions and not interfering with religious expression. Are the school administrators concerned with the lawsuit or with the law? They took action based on someone's complaint. Examine the role of Pastor Scott in this. Has he, as a religious authority, encroached on school property to exert religious influence in a secular, school setting? Or, is he doing his job by helping his young parishioners find ways to legitimately express their faith? Are motivation statements rooted in sacred religious texts acceptable coming from the authorities of government? How about the Golden Rule, which derives from many religious traditions? .

elaine · 09-29-09 1:13 pm

How would banners supporting Islam and their faith be accepted? I agree that public schools should remain neutral, as they are supported by government tax money and all religions, or none, support them by their taxes. Just as we would not want our Federal government supporting any religion, neither should local governments.

don · 09-29-09 5:18 pm

I agree that public schools should remain neutral Is the cheer-leading team part of the school administration, or school "taxes"? .

bob_2 · 09-29-09 7:02 pm

Elaine, we just won't talk about origins, and let them all go to their various parishes to get that discussion, because without observation, there can be no science. Not even of the evolutionary type, speculation, not observation.

elaine · 09-29-09 7:32 pm

Don, it may depend on the different schools. Cheer-leading is now being considered as either a sport or dancing in some schools, so it must be on the curricula. Taxes support the public schools, but each operate differently.

bob_2 · 09-29-09 8:40 pm

Even Andrews had the travelling Gymnics which my brother travelled with and were phenomenally talented, but were never considered dance, but gymnastic sport and showmanship.

don · 09-30-09 4:44 am

Ky. school trip to church that included baptisms raises questions 9/8/2009 By Andrew Wolfson, The (Louisville) Courier Journal<blockquote>LOUISVILLE — A mother is angry about a trip led by the head football coach at Breckinridge County High School took about 20 players on a school bus late last month to his church, where nearly half of them — including her son — were baptized. Michelle Ammons said her 16-year-old son was baptized without her knowledge and consent, and she is upset that a public school bus was used to take players to a church service — and that the school district's superintendent was there and did not object. "Nobody should push their faith on anybody else," said Ammons, whose son, Robert Coffey, said coach Scott Mooney told him and other players that the Aug. 26 outing would include only a motivational speaker and a free steak dinner. "He said it would bring the team together," Robert, a sophomore, said in an interview. Two other parents, however, said in interviews that their sons told them that Mooney had said the voluntary outing to Franklin Crossroads Baptist Church in Hardin County would include a revival. Mooney, contacted by phone, said school district officials instructed him not to comment. But Superintendent Janet Meeks, who is a member of the church and witnessed the baptisms, said she thinks the trip was proper because attendance was not required, and another coach paid for the gas. Meeks said parents weren't given permission slips to sign but knew the event would include a church service, if not specifically a baptism. She said eight or nine players came forward and were baptized. "None of the players were rewarded for going and none were punished for not going," Meeks said. David Friedman, general counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky, said in an interview that the trip would appear to violate Supreme Court edicts on the separation of church and state — even if it was voluntary and the school district didn't pay for the fuel. "If players want to attend the coach's church and get baptized, that's great," Friedman said. But a coach cannot solicit player attendance at school, he said, noting, "Coaches have great power and persuasion by virtue of their position, and they have to stay neutral." However, Matt Staver, founder and general counsel for Liberty Counsel, an Orlando-based group that provides free legal assistance in religious liberty cases, said there was nothing wrong with trip as long as it was voluntary and no public funds were used. He compared it to a coach inviting players to attend a play or to go see a baseball game. Neither the ACLU nor Liberty Counsel is involved in the Breckinridge County case. The U.S. Supreme Court has said in school prayer cases that "at a minimum, the Constitution guarantees that government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way that establishes a state religion or religious faith, or tends to do so." (<a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0505_0577_ZS.html" target="_blank">Lee v Weisman, 1992</a>, <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0403_0602_ZS.html" target="_blank">Lemon v. Kurtzman, 1971</a>) In March, the court rejected an appeal from a high school football coach in New Jersey who wanted to bow his head and kneel during prayers led by his players, despite a school district policy prohibiting it. Meeks said she would have sought the consent of parents for the baptism of students if they had been "7 or 8 or 9" years old. But she didn't think it was necessary for the players who are "16 or 17." She said that if Robert's parents didn't know that the outing was going to include a revival service it was because "he apparently was not forthcoming with his parents." The church's pastor, the Rev. Ron Davis, said that he requires minors to obtain their parents' consent to be baptized, but he added: "Sometimes 16-year-olds look like 18 years. We did the best we could." He said the event on Aug. 26 "was a great service" and that attendance by the players was strictly voluntary. "I trust the coach 100%," he said of Mooney. "He is a fine young man and he is sure not going to manipulate anyone." Two parents, Tim Bruington and Eric Vertress, said in interviews that they knew through their children that the trip would include a revival-type service. Bruington said his son, Tyler, a senior, decided not to go. Vertress said his son, Matthew, elected to attend and that his mother drove to the church separately for the service. Ammons, who lives in Big Spring, said that she is a Baptist but her husband, Danny, is Catholic, and that both feel like their son should wait until he is 18 to make important decisions on religion. "We felt he was brainwashed," she said. She said she was prepared to drop the matter until she found out that Meeks attended the service. She said she consulted a lawyer in Elizabethtown but hasn't decided what action she will take. "They have no right to take my son on a school bus across county lines to be a church to be baptized," she said. <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-09-08-school-baptisms_N.htm" target=_top>http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-09-08-s chool-baptisms_N.htm</a> </blockquote>Comments 1. Would a student agree to attend because he did not want to disappoint his coach? 2. Baptism, at this revival, apparently took place the same time as the revival service invited people to respond. Adventists usually provide baptismal instruction classes prior to baptism. 3. The boy's parent was unaware of her son's baptism until after. Baptism is a major step in a person's life. Should the people involved be more sensitive to parental wishes and concerns? 4. What is "brainwashing"? Is a revival service a form of brainwashing? Can it be? What factors are involved in brainwashing? What safeguards prevent brainwashing? .

john8verse32 · 09-30-09 12:16 pm

would coach have been better received if he had taken the boys on this field trip? <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/87/1937.jpg" alt="">

elaine · 09-30-09 2:38 pm

This seems like a good suit for parents to bring. How would anyone like his children who lived in "Mormon Country" taken on a public school bus to a Mormon church and then baptized?? No public facilities should be transporting students to a church meeting, and baptizing children under age without parental consent is wrong and unlawful.

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