New Order With 'Real Teeth'

don · 07-07-09 8:44 am

Pope, on Eve of G-8, Calls for New Order With ‘Real Teeth’ <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:July 7 (Bloomberg) -- Pope Benedict XVI called for a new financial order with “real teeth” as Group of Eight leaders prepare to discuss ways out of the worst recession since World War II. <a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aUK_q1tvHrEc" target=_top>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&si d=aUK_q1tvHrEc</a><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Revelation 13<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

elaine · 07-07-09 1:06 pm

Who's listening to the Pope--except some Adventists? Why else the Revelation quotation?

john8verse32 · 07-07-09 1:17 pm

Obama is the Beast of Revelation: thanks to him, no one could sell Cry-slers and GM VEhicles unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. 666. Revelation 13:18 says “the number of the Beast … is the number of a man and his number is six hundred threescore and six.” 6+6+6=18, the number of letters in Barack Hussein Obama, whose Chicago power base includes the 60606 zip code. On November 5 — the day after the election — in Obama’s home state of Illinois — the evening pick 3 lottery number was 6-6-6. or maybe the beast is Sotomayer, the new proposed judge who thinks she is better than old white guys... she will be the 6th catholic on the supreme court... that's 6 out of 9... thats....horrors.... .666

george · 07-07-09 3:17 pm

Don, This afternoon I was driving with my 5 year-old grandson in the back seat. He had found a map of NY state and was asking me where we were. I told him he couldn't find us on that map (being we were in Nova Scotia) but he insisted I show him where we were on his map. When I couldn't, he was confidently finding our location there anyway, locating bridges and roads. It made me think of your post. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" border=0>

renie · 07-07-09 4:34 pm

The pope who lives in an ornate and costly castle can start with his own house. The money to run that whole operation must be obscene. renie

bob_2 · 07-07-09 5:23 pm

The real answer to the world's problems was found today at the Michael Jackson Memorial: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Smile tho' your heart is aching, Smile Even though it's breaking, When there are clouds in the sky- You'll get by, If you Smile through your fear and sorrow, Smile and maybe tomorrow You'll see the sun come shining through- For you. Light up your face with gladness, Hide ev'ry trace of sadness, Altho' a tear may be ever so near, That's the time you must keep on trying, Smile- What's the use of crying, You'll find that life is still worthwhile, If you just smile. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Said to be Jackson's favorite son. No problem if you're addicted to drugs, SMILE. No trouble if your life is abnormal, SMILE. <center>You'll find that life is still worthwhile, If you just smile.</center>

elaine · 07-07-09 6:22 pm

As a Jehovah's Witness, there is no heaven or hell where he will go. "When people ask me what Jehovah's Witnesses believe, I like to say it's similar to the song "Imagine" by John Lennon: "No hell below us...no countries...nothing to kill or die for and no religion too...a brotherhood of man...and the world will live as one." Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian for sure. They believe Jesus was sent by his father, Jehovah, to die for our sins. But the reward for salvation doesn't involve the pearly gates. Jehovah's Witnesses have no desire to go to heaven. They look forward to a time when the earth will become the utopia in John Lennon's song. Jehovah's Witnesses call it paradise. People will literally live forever in healthy, ageless bodies on an earth where all political boundaries, war, famine, racism, disease and death itself cease to exist. Jehovah's Witnesses say all the inexplicable suffering in the world -- the Holocaust, children dying of cancer - is because Satan, not God, currently rules the world. Satan challenged God that he could do better, so God handed Satan the reins to make a point. That's why, before paradise can come, God has to end the challenge once and for all, destroying the political, economic and religious systems that the devil has built up to oppress people. Jehovah's Witnesses call this Armageddon." From Washington Post 7 July

bob_2 · 07-07-09 7:07 pm

During part of the "sermon" at Jackson's funeral, someone mentioned the "King" would now have bow his knee to the real King in heaven. That doesn't sound like your bit on Jehovah's Witnesses.

don · 07-08-09 4:08 pm

Who's listening to the Pope--except some Adventists? Why else the Revelation quotation? I put the two ideas side by side because it made an interesting comparison. On a closer read, the two are totally unrelated really. Unless... Elaine, I think you underestimate the news-making capability of the pope. Using Google News, type in "Pope Benedict" and "G8". Notice the thousands of news stories. This, however, has little prophetic significance. Unless... <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Some Headlines<blockquote><a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/beware-of-false-profits/article1210058/" target="_blank">Beware of false profits</a> <a href="http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/660210" target="_blank">Harper (Canada) plans to meet Pope on G8 trip</a> <a href="http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=africa&item=090707171516.i8efumor.php" target="_blank">Pope meets Japanese PM ahead of G8 summit</a> <a href="http://www.skynews.com.au/news/article.aspx?id=350406" target="_blank">Rudd (Australia) arrives in Rome to meet Pope</a> <a href="http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/155604.php" target="_blank">Pope, Obama To Hold Meeting After G-8 Summit</a> </blockquote> (Message edited by Don on July 08, 2009)

elaine · 07-08-09 6:40 pm

Don, FYI, I do read several newspapers daily, in addition to more than four weekly newsmamagazines. My eyes don't pop when I read of the Pope's statements any more than when I read of some senator here in the U.S., in fact, less. He has much less power than tSDAs have attributed to him. Fear is a strong motivator. When EGW wrote of the danger of the Catholic church and how it should be feared, there was a general anit-Catholic fervor in the U.S. Today, religion has changed so dramatically that the fundamentalists and conserative protestants are far more powerful than Catholicism. Things that worried people 100 years ago are not what is fearful today. Financial instability, the crash of our capitalist economy, and the affect on the family is of much higher priority.

don · 07-08-09 9:22 pm

I do read several newspapers daily. I must have misunderstood when you observed: "Who's listening to the Pope --except some Adventists?" When EGW wrote of the danger of the Catholic church and how it should be feared, there was a general anit-Catholic fervor in the U.S. A Catholic friend of mine is an activist in the anti-abortion movement. I asked him how he explained the difference between killing the unborn and the killing during the inquisition. Without missing a beat, he explained that the RCC had the right to protect its people from heretics. Today, religion has changed so dramatically that the fundamentalists and conserative protestants are far more powerful than Catholicism. When JFK was running for president I recall enlivened discussions among Adventists. Some felt for sure that a Roman Catholic in the office of the President would lead to a fulfillment of prophecy while others pointed out that the prophecy is that Protestants will do the making of the image. Of course, it all is prophetic interpretation. And, it seems quite unlikely of fulfillment in the present political atmosphere. <a href="http://www.reference.com/search?q=Fear+mongering" target="_blank">Fear-mongering</a> is misguided; being aware of the prophetic message seems wise.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Marvelous in her shrewdness and cunning is the Roman Catholic Church. She presents a fair front to the world, covering with apologies her record of horrible cruelties, and declaring that her spirit of persecution no longer exists. But she is the same as in the days of the Reformation, when men of God stood up at the peril of their lives to expose her iniquity; the same as when she assumed the power to control kings and princes, and claimed the prerogatives of God. She may clothe herself in Christlike garments, the better to carry forward her purposes; but she still retains the venom of the serpent, and her principles are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in churches, and in the hearts of men. Her spirit is no less cruel and despotic now than when it crushed out human liberty, and slew the saints of the Most High. EGW, The Signs of the Times , November 8, 1899 <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Perhaps it is politically incorrect to remind people of the centuries past. But, it is the matter for the record. I certainly am not one to dwell on these matters. .

elaine · 07-08-09 9:59 pm

It is such statements as this that have continued to inflame Adventists against Catholics. The statement ignores the persecution enacted by those in the Counter Reformation which were no picnic. The time EGW is referring to (when she assumed the power to control kings and princes) is true. However, those days are long past when papal power was the strongest and above kings. Not since then has that papal power held sway and to claim that past events presage future, is a faulty prophecy based on past events. There was also a time when the three great monotheistic religions lived peacably in Spain for many centuries, and introduced great discoveries. We should always remember that what is called "Roman Catholic" today was the only Christian church recognized for 1500 years. Without them we would not have the NT, the doctrine of the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, and the dual nature of Christ (yet we reject their adoption of the first day of the week in honor of the Resurrection--something that Adventists have eschewed for most of their history). We as Christians today have adopted and accepted much from the one Christian church and it should not be forgotten that we owe to them our religious belief. Faulty as it was, it was kept alive all those centuries by the one church.

don · 07-08-09 11:30 pm

It is such statements as this that have continued to inflame Adventists against Catholics. To inflame against Catholics is wrong, to remind of the past is wise. The statement ignores the persecution enacted by (against?) those in the Counter Reformation which were no picnic. Of course, inhumanity is wrong whereever it shows its ugliness. Not since then has that papal power held sway and to claim that past events presage future, is a faulty prophecy based on past events. I am not sure how you determine the prophecy to be faulty. The Adventist interpretation is in line with a long line of Protestant interpreters. Also, to even hint that the Roman Catholic power does not assert itself in these days of peace is quite naive. Plenty of rather recent history can be highlighted to show the power of the papacy in the affairs of state. We should always remember that what is called "Roman Catholic" today was the only Christian church recognized for 1500 years. Yes, and the record of its use of coercion to accomplish its will is undeniable, at least from Constantine forward. Without them we would not have the NT, the doctrine of the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, and the dual nature of Christ I think it is more accurate to say, "Without them we would not have the NT, etc defined as we know it." Long before the Bishop of Rome took the lead position the Christian churches had recognized inspired writings to guide them. The use of these writings would have led to the refining of doctrine with, or without, Rome's help. We as Christians today have adopted and accepted much from the one Christian church and it should not be forgotten that we owe to them our religious belief. Faulty as it was, it was kept alive all those centuries by the one church. It is wise to remember. I am content to view the Roman Catholic Church as a spiritual uncle of sorts; one who got himself all mixed up in his middle and later years. On the other hand, to view the church as monolithic is, in itself, a denial of history's record. .

elaine · 07-08-09 11:45 pm

As you say, the Roman Catholic church was not formalized in the first few centuries. The power was diffused throughout many regions, and each individual region had its own beliefs, not always agreeing with the others. Even when the KJV was translated, the Bibles contained books that are no longer part of the recognized ones we use today. These books influenced the church. Even EGW was influenced by the Book of Enoch in declaring giants seen on other planets. There are tales found in Genesis that sound strangely similar to myths from other cultures. No one can explain exactly why Cain would fear of being killed when there were only three people mentioned at that time after Abel was killed; nor is there any indication of where he found a wife; nor who were the "sons of God" who married the daughters of men and had children by them; nor who were the Nephilim on the earth "at that time (and even afterwards). "These are the heroes of days gone by, the famous men."

renie · 07-09-09 1:54 pm

I don't mean to drift off the subject, well maybe this is part of the subject........ The Adventist church is walking a thin line when it presents it's evangelistic meetings portraying the Catholic church as being the villain in the last days. There is a real danger of being accused of 'hate crimes' in the present climate. There could come a time when one of the church's evangelists is arrested and accused of a hate crime. I think it is terribly arrogant to put down any other church in order to prove your 'truth' is the correct truth.

don · 07-09-09 8:26 pm

I think it is terribly arrogant to put down any other church in order to prove your 'truth' is the correct truth. I agree. I don't think the more sensitive evangelists, like Finley, follow such a practice. When the prophecies are preached, again by the sensitive, it is not to prove that SDA truth is the correct truth. Prophetic interpretation cannot be proved except by time and fulfillment. The early Adventism of James White, et al., sought to prove matters from the Scriptures. .

elaine · 07-09-09 8:35 pm

But "proving" from Scripture always requires interpretation, and that's where the difficulty lies. Adventists have claimed to "see" the Roman Catholic church in prophecy that no other Christians see. "Private interpretaion" is a warning from Scripture.

bob_2 · 07-09-09 9:25 pm

The idea that the Antichrist will come from the Church of Rome and probably be a Pope is widely held among Protestants. <a href="http://www.be-ready.org/pope.html" target=_top>http://www.be-ready.org/pope.html</a> Elaine where do you get Adventists have claimed to "see" the Roman Catholic church in prophecy that no other Christians see.

don · 07-09-09 11:55 pm

Adventists have claimed to "see" the Roman Catholic church in prophecy that no other Christians see. "Private interpretaion" is a warning from Scripture. Elaine, you certainly are aware of Froom's monumental four volume work, "The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers." This chart comes from Volume 3 page 252. Adventists certainly have plenty of historical interpretation to support their interpretation. I am not sure how today's interpreters line up. Adventists are probably more on their own than in centuries gone by. From another perspective re: private interpretation. When the Bible writer warned about such, there were probably less Christians in the world than there are Seventh-day Adventists today. What is "private interpretation"? Now examine the number of Bible interpreters who found the papacy in the prophecy of the "little horn" of Daniel 7. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/87/1553.jpg" alt=""> Source: <a href="http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/PFOF/PFOF1946-V03/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=252" target="_blank">http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/PFOF/PFOF1946-V03/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=252</a> .

elaine · 07-10-09 1:09 pm

Yes, I am also aware that since Froom's volumes, he has been charged with not being absolutely truthful and factual. Perhaps because he didn't have all the information, or other reasons. He is NOT the last word, as there have been others since him who have corrected his interpretation. Yes, for hundreds of years Protestants were largely anti-Catholic, and Adventists simply jumped on the band wagon. Today, Christians should be more fearful of their rigid fundamentalists who say it's "my way or the highway" (like Cliff Goldstein).

don · 07-10-09 3:54 pm

Adventists simply jumped on the band wagon. I suggest, that your anti-Adventist colors get revealed by how you write. "Simply jumping on the band wagon" seems to imply thoughtless action to be popular. Adventist pioneer writers, James White, J. N. Andrews, Uriah Smith, R. F. Cottrell, etc, thought through what they taught. They agreed with the established Protestant views of the anti-Christ and the papacy. It was not a bandwagon experience from what I can tell. You have also written rather supportively of the Roman Catholic contribution to Christianity and very little about the atrocities committed in the name of Christ when the RCC was Christianity's face. The Protestants who were "largely anti-Catholic" had good reason for their stance, didn't they? I believe that people of faith can contribute to the market place of ideas whether they be RCC or SDA or whatever, don't you? .

bob_2 · 07-10-09 7:00 pm

Which is it Elaine, SDA the only Anti Catholics or just jumping on a popular Protestant band wagon. Maybe that lady on Spectrum voting you an A++ for contrarianism was right!!!<img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/blush.gif" border=0>

elaine · 07-10-09 8:21 pm

We should never forget the contribution of the one Christian church for the first 15 centuries of its existence. You would not be a Christian today if it had not been nurtured and kept alive by that one church. It was that church that selected the texts in the NT used by Christians today. All Christians have accepted their decision in the NT as well as its major doctrines. Yes, there are many atrocities committed in the past; it is not being ignored. However, how far back in history does one need to go to find atrocities of all kinds committed by all peoples? Should the atrocities committed by the Israelites be ignored? Those were mostly said to be ordered by God. Even the SDA church, while not beheading or burning at the stake, has destroyed the careers of many wonderful Bible scholars in its short history. Religion is an "equal opportunity prosecutor."

don · 07-10-09 9:02 pm

Religion is an "equal opportunity prosecutor." I think we can expand that to organized dogma. Aren't there some atheists who want to outlaw religion? Marxism has shown that to be true. Even the bastion of freedom has found reasons to waterboard. Any organization that has a track record of persecuting and has not repented cannot be trusted to behave differently. The RCC has not apologized for burning the heretics. Israel still believes in fighting for a divine cause; followers of Islam do as well. Many Adventists continue to assert that those who oppose the doctrines, as they understand them, should be out. Once in a while, even among Adventists, their arise statesmen who will point to a more humane path for the organization to follow. .

elaine · 07-10-09 9:50 pm

Aren't there some atheists who want to outlaw religion? Possibly, but except for a few very outspoken writers, atheists are usually members of the "Live and Let Live" group. They are certainly not out proselytizing to get converts. Atheists are usually those who have read into it, IOW, their education has led them to see the inadequacies of most religious beliefs. More are probably agnostics: admission that they do not know whether there is a god or not. Is that not more honest, since no one can say for certainty that there is a god, and less yet, the impossibility of knowing anything about the idea. It is all based on faith which requires no evidence. It is somewhat disconcerting that those who have a faith that there is a god, seek, at the same time to gather evidence. The fervent belief in a god is confused with evidence: their subjective evidence that should convince others of the same belief.

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