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An anti-Christian chapter in Western history is about to begin. But out of the ruins, a new vitality and integrity will rise. <BR>By Michael Spencer <BR>from the March 10, 2009 edition <BR> <BR>Oneida, Ky. - We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West. <BR> <BR>Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century. <BR> <BR>This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good. <BR> <BR>Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close. <BR> <BR>Why is this going to happen?..................... <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.html" target=_top>http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0310/p09s01-coop.htm l</a>
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Very interesting post. <BR> <BR>The Evangelicals have made great fools of themselves for all to see. Their many attempts to use the Government to force others to follow their rules is not only anti-American, but it runs counter to the Gospel, which they know so little about. <BR> <BR>So it is easy to predict that this rotten tree will soon fall. <BR> <BR>What is not clear, as yet, is this: <BR> <BR>What new Movement will replace the discredited, dishonest, and confused Evangelicals? What could be on the horizon that might make a difference? <BR> <BR>Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. <BR> <BR>Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. <BR> <BR>Rev. 18:3 “For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.” <BR> <BR>Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; <BR> <BR>Rev. 18:5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. <BR> <BR>Today, the Advent Movement stands on a threshold of great opportunity and eschatological duty. Will they clean up their twisted doctrines and false organizational structure? Will they repent for persecuting Dr. Ford and the Gospel? Will they embrace the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages and confess their many errors associated with Ellen White? <BR> <BR>In short, can the Advent Movement get back on track to prepare the church for the Time of Trouble and the great Judgment Day of the Second Coming? Will the SDA's stop their Laodicean double-talk and repent? <BR> <BR>This is the primary question for the Adventist Community to ponder. <BR> <BR>Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
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Then there is NCT, not the evangelical version, not the Calvinistic version, but the Biblical version, the one you can get excited about all over again reading the Bible in the light of it's self not extrabiblical sources.
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That is one man's opinion and I don't discount it. <BR> <BR>When I read the remainder of the article and his assessment of the young people it reminded me of the SDA young people. Most have no idea why they believe what they do. Even adult members cannot carry on a debate to defend what they say they believe. Too bad it has come down to follow the leader and don't worry because we have the truth and we will get your through. <BR> <BR>Obama Mania uses the same tactics.
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Evangelical preaching is close to antinominism yet they believe in the 10 Commandments. They don't have the New Covenant message down pat. That may be the reason for the prediction. Calvinism, says God will make all the choices for you, if you are one of the elect. How conveeeeenient. [My imitation of the church lady.] <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/blush.gif" border=0>
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Since I am the worst of sinners (not bragging) I saw real humor in the church lady. Saturday night has never been the same without her. I wish they would sell the clips. Even I would spring some shekels to get them. Bob
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Bob, believing in the 10 was how Adventism was able to reel me in. Protestantism doesn't know what it believes anymore. In fact, I don't think it ever has. It took Adventism to do this with its hang up with the 4th one to get me to study and find that all the law was nailed to the Cross. That is why Jesus gave us the new command of Love. Along with Him as our rest, it covers all of them and much more.
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It bears repeating: Adventism is much more founded in Judaism than in NT Christianity. <BR> <BR>1. Sabbath <BR>2. Dietary rules <BR> <BR>Both, straight out of the OT. The NT clearly <BR>explains they are no longer applicable. They are barriers that separate Jews and Gentiles which was removed with Christ.
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Also, tithing is a OT rule, never given to Christians.
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I can never understand, Elaine, why people like you oppose tithe, how do you think the churches finance all they do????
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Bob, my husband and I have paid tithe for all the years we've been married (65). What I resent is the money that is wasted. Endless committee meetings where expenses, (motels, gas mileage,) are paid for each member attending. Most of those meetings could be tele-conferenced. <BR> <BR>I hate to think what it must cost to do the World General Conference meetings every four years. <BR> <BR> What does it cost to maintain the White Estate? Why do we need such a library? We don't even have that for the writers of the Bible. Most of Ellen's letters and notes should have been burned a long time ago. <BR> <BR>Evangelistic meetings where the evangelist and family must be accommodated financially for living expenses during the overly-long series. Our church paid out a lot of money for brochures and other stuff for two series where NO ONE was baptized. We also had to pay for the rental of a large room in a hotel for the meetings since we didn't want anyone to know the meetings were being held by Adventists until well into the series. <BR> <BR> Our membership is 70 members. It all becomes a real burden. The argument always is that if we baptize one person it's worth it. We members can do that just by befriending one person. Forget evangelistic meetings where all we do is blame the Catholic church and cry doom and destruction. <BR> <BR>If tithe was all we needed to give, maybe! But we are asked for numerous other donations to cover a host of stuff we really could do without. <BR> <BR>We need to move the way we operate our church into the 21 century. <BR> <BR>renie
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The NT Christians lived communally. Maybe you can explain how there would be something to tithe in a communist system.
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Bob Sands said: <BR>I can never understand, Elaine, why people like you oppose tithe, how do you think the churches finance all they do???? <BR> <BR>Bob, are you an advocate of tithing? Do you bring your produce and animals to the storehouse for the Levites? Are you somehow under Levitical law?
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No current Church will survive without tithing. However, I asked my accountant the norm for donations to charities, his answer, 3%. Without it, the Churches go away. Maybe a lot here don't care if they do. Others still attend and would not be able to without donations, tithe, whatever you wish to call it.
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<b><font color="0000ff">how do you think the churches finance all they do???? <BR> <BR>No current Church will survive without tithing</font></b> <BR> <BR>Most assuredly you are wrong, wrong! Most of the fastest-growing churches do not tithe (the word means 10%), and anything less is called an <BR>"offering." <BR> <BR>The NT model given by Paul to the Corinthians (2-8:12-15, and 9:7) was to give what he can afford. "This does not mean that to give relief to others you ought to make things difficult for yourselves. It is a question of balancing what happens to be your surplus now against their present need, and one day they may have something to spare that will supply your own need....Each one should give what he has decided in his own mind, not grudgingly or because he is made to, for God loves a cheerful giver." <BR> <BR>No instruction or command was ever given to the Christians to pay a tithe, or 10% of their increase. <BR> <BR>Most churches do very well; it depends on whether a goodly portion is forwarded on to the "storehouse" (read conference office) or is used to maintain the church's local needs. I pay a tithe, usually more, but it goes ONLY to the local church needs. They continue to add members and without an evangelistic effort in over 20 years! <BR> <BR>As Renie says, bringing friends is the best way.
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Elaine, it's not called tithe, but it comes close: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>Philippians 4:14Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; 16for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need. 17Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account. 18I have received full payment and even more; I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. <b><font color="0000ff">They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God.</font></b> 19And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus. <BR><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
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He was quite clear in his letter to the Corinthians that we should not make things difficult for yourselves. This is surely contradictory to what new SDAs were told that even if they didn't have enough for food or rent, etc., they should pay a 10% as "the Lord will bless (followed by Uncle Arthur type stories of how their needs were met). <BR> <BR>Also, even in the OT, it was to be paid on the "increase" after deducting the needs of one's family. Today, what does "increase" mean when there is no money left after costs of food, rent, gas, etc., have been taken care of. Puts the "guilt trip" on non-tithe-payers.
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Maybe none of you understand the OC tithing system even though it has been explained throughly on this forum. The system didn't include all Israelites, only those who raised crops and/or animals. The tithe was never paid in money. How churches today get off with demanding ALL their members pay 10% in money and say that it is Biblical is beyond me. To me it is a scam. No wonder church membership is declining, all the false dogma. <BR> <BR>Just this morning a couple of friends and I went past a church and one of the guys said his wife went there. I thought it was a Church of God, but he said no that it was a Church of Christ. I ask if they used musical instruments and he said no and defended it by telling me that the Bible doesn't say we can use them. I then said the Bible doesn't say we can use automobiles either. It amazes me that some could fall for a doctrine like that, but I guess it is no more amazing than falling for the IJ and "keeping" Sabbath.
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Sources, Bob Shields!!
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Your Bible and Strong's Concordance Bob Sands. You need to be spoon fed?- :-) Look up tithe and tithing. If you do not want to do your own study Google Russel Kelly tithing. He has done the work for you and will withstand any critique.
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Hey Bob Shields, would you rather pay tithe or pay until there is EQUALITY: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>2 Cor 8:13Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. Then there will be equality, 15as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little." <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>The whole thing about tithing is sort of ridiculous because if we follow the NT way, EQUALITY is going to be a lot greater burden than tithing.
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Bob, I don't think Paul was saying that if I work 16 hours a day and my neighbor only works 8 hours a day that I should share half of my extra pay with him. Do you? <BR> <BR>If someone needs assistance because of a misfortune we all should share in helping. Don't allow them to get down and out. That would be sinning against the Royal Law of Love. <BR> <BR>Early Christians tried communal living. It must not have worked for whatever reason. I would be willing to bet that there were some unmotivated individuals amongst them. That doesn't go well even in a Christian community. The church today faces the same problem and forcing modified tithing laws isn't the answer.
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Definition: <BR> <BR>Tithe: a tenth of one's income. <BR> <BR>An offering may vary depending on one's circumstances, according to Paul's instructions. <BR>Tithing was never commanded for the Christian church. <BR> <BR>The latest Review Online has an article calling all who do not pay tithe, as robbers.
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Elaine and Bob, stop talking tithe, neither it or Sabbath are mandated in the New Covenant. But how you get Equality to work Bob, it is the ideal for giving set by the Early Church. I don't have the answer how to get it to work, just like some of the expanded commandments. They are not a carry over but repeated in an expanded way, to make up Christ's law.
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Mr. Sands <BR> <BR>Everything Mr. Shields has written is correct, according to the Bible which you have not read. Asking him for sources is insane. Read the book! The idea of equality will not work. Whole countries have tried and failed. Its communism and it will never work.
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