You are not logged in.
<b><font color="0000ff">Some truly are seeking truth, which may mean admitting they erred in their thinking. Seems to me even W did some of that. Some are waiting for Obama.</font></b> <BR> <BR>Obama admitted a mistake in this report, didn't he? <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/02/04/president-obama-says-i-made-a-mistake" target=_top>http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/02/04/president- obama-says-i-made-a-mistake</a> <BR><font color="ffffff"><font size="-2">.</font></font>
Offline
Elaine....did these examples you share ie: 'Osiris is said to bring his believers eternal life'......pre-date the life of Christ? <BR> <BR>Who is copy-catting who? <BR> <BR>Not being a history buff, I hadn't heard of these stories you share. Kinda shakes me up.
Offline
Renie, most, if not all of these predated Christ's birth. <BR> <BR>For more info: <a href="http://www.pocm.org" target=_top>www.pocm.org</a> <BR> <BR>Also, <i>The Jesus Mysteries</i> by Freke & Gandy <BR>for absolute documentation of these.
Offline
Renie <BR> <BR>I would also HIGHLY recommend <i>The Jesus Mysteries</i> by Freke & Gandy. You can hardly find a word in the book that is not footnoted.
Offline
The "faithful" are not receptive to Freke and Gandy, but it is impossible to deny their scholarship. <BR> <BR>It should bother those who ridicule all the other pagan cultures from believing in miracles of virgin birth and resurrection from the dead, and healing blindness, etc., and so unquestioningly accept every single word of those when found in the Bible. How is that explained?
Offline
Your alternative???
Offline
An alternative is not a requirement. <BR> <BR>If many beliefs have similar miraculous stories, what is to separate them? How is one able to choose one over the others?
Offline
Sounds like your alternative is, stay in bed with the covers pulled up over your head, eh???
Offline
<font color="0000ff">The "faithful" are not receptive to Freke and Gandy, but it is impossible to deny their scholarship.</font> <BR> <BR>Perhaps with Good reason:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>Here in England where I live, we are certain that some things are always going to happen - it will rain in August, we’ll be beaten at soccer and that there will be no end to the line of pseudo-historical books about Jesus. <BR> <BR>For the last of these, I really must apologise on behalf of my countrymen. G. A. Wells, the Holy Blood and Holy Grail crew, and now The Jesus Mysteries have all issued forth from these shores on to an unsuspecting world. It’s beginning to get embarrassing. <BR> <BR>The Jesus Mysteries is by Peter Gandy and Timothy Freke. They haven’t got a peer reviewed paper or scholarly monograph between them but no one ever said that a complete lack of the relevant qualifications should prevent someone writing a book on Jesus. Publishers positively encourage it because these sorts of books make a lot of money. They are called ‘wah-wah’ books in the trade which, as you can tell, isn’t very flattering, and they are not to be taken seriously. HarperCollins, who publishes The Jesus Mysteries, has even decided to use a special imprint called ‘Thorsons’ for everything they publish in the field. This is a good idea as it distances their still quite respectable name from some of the trash they need to bring out to stay in business.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR><a href="http://www.tektonics.org/books/jesmystrvw.html" target=_top>Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy's The Jesus Mysteries: A Critique</a> <BR> <BR>Renie, before you go jumping on their bandwagon, this might also be of interest: <a href="http://www.tektonics.org/books/jeslostrvw.html" target=_top>Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy's Jesus and the Lost Goddess: A Critique</a>. Additional articles about their work are linked.
Offline
These critiques were put out by an apologetics press. What else could be expected?
Offline
From reviews on Amazon: <BR> <BR>Freke (a philospher and author of books on spirituality) and Gandy (who is studying classical civilization) believe that first century Jewish mystics adapted the potent symbolism of the Osiris-Dionysus myths into a myth of their own, the hero of which was the Jewish dying and resurrecting godman Jesus. Therefore, the story of Jesus is a consciously crafted vehicle for encoded spiritual teachings created by Jewish Gnostics. We are unaware of this, they claim, because the Roman Catholic Church destroyed evidence of the connection between Christianity and the pagan mysteries. They make their case by offering an examination of mystery religions, especially Greek, pointing out the many parallels between them and what they see as the Gospels! message about Jesus. Freke and Gandy are familiar with a significant amount of recent biblical scholarship, though they rely mostly on Elaine Pagels!s work on the Gnostics. This book will obviously be controversial, but the authors are quite informed, as demonstrated by their extensive notes and bibliography. A list of related web sites, a Who!s Who, and an index add to the book!s usefulness. Recommended as an important book in the debate on the historical Jesus."David Bourquin, California State Univ., San Bernardino <BR> <BR>Freke (a philospher and author of books on spirituality) and Gandy (who is studying classical civilization) believe that first century Jewish mystics adapted the potent symbolism of the Osiris-Dionysus myths into a myth of their own, the hero of which was the Jewish dying and resurrecting godman Jesus. Therefore, the story of Jesus is a consciously crafted vehicle for encoded spiritual teachings created by Jewish Gnostics. We are unaware of this, they claim, because the Roman Catholic Church destroyed evidence of the connection between Christianity and the pagan mysteries. They make their case by offering an examination of mystery religions, especially Greek, pointing out the many parallels between them and what they see as the Gospels! message about Jesus. Freke and Gandy are familiar with a significant amount of recent biblical scholarship, though they rely mostly on Elaine Pagels!s work on the Gnostics. This book will obviously be controversial, but the authors are quite informed, as demonstrated by their extensive notes and bibliography. A list of related web sites, a Who!s Who, and an index add to the book!s usefulness. Recommended as an important book in the debate on the historical Jesus."David Bourquin, California State Univ., San Bernardino <BR> <BR>...an erudite and well-researched book stuffed with plenty of controversial ideas.' -- Fiona Pitt-Kethley, 'Book of the Year 1999' The Daily Telegraph <BR> <BR>'A wonderful blend of detective story, historical research and clear thinking.' -- Roger Housden Author of Sacred America. <BR> <BR>'The parallels between paganism and Christianity that Freke and Gandy advance are impressive' -- Professor G A Wells, author of The Jesus Myth. <BR> <BR>?A wonderful blend of detective story, historical research, and clear thinking, The Jesus Mysteries explains in accessible form what has been known to scholars for centuries. The time for the inner mysteries of Christianity to be brought out of the closet is long overdue, and this book is a powerful and courageous voice for the cause.? <BR>-- Roger Housden, author of Sacred America and Sacred Journeys in a Modern World <BR> <BR>?The Jesus Mysteries -- ?Book of the year.? ? Daily Telegraph <BR> <BR> <BR>From the Trade Paperback edition. -- Review <BR> <BR>‘Scholars will appreciate the thorough documentation, specified in hundreds of footnotes.’ -- Professor Alvar Ellegard, author of Jesus - One Hundred Years Before Christ.
Offline
Elaine, my dear cyber acquaintance, <BR> <BR>Are the posted and linked criticisms valid or not? regardless of who put them out? In other words, don't attack the messenger, please show where the criticisms fall down. <BR> <BR>For every 'scholar' you produce, who has a new and novel approach to the Bible, I can produce many, who disagree with the cute novelties favored by your flavor of the month writers. <BR> <BR>Sometimes I think that many former SDA's are the most gullible sort of people, many easily fall for pseudo scholarship. <BR> <BR>A long time ago, someone wrote about these blind guides that many have become enamored with:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>For there will be a time when people will not tolerate sound teaching. Instead, following their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves, because they have an insatiable curiosity to hear new things. <BR> <BR>And they will turn away from hearing the truth, but on the other hand they will turn aside to myths. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Offline
From a link in my earlier post:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>With a background in New Age mysticism and spiritualism neither Gandy nor Freke have ever before demonstrated much grasp of critical history or biblical interpretation. Their university degrees are not relevant to the task at hand or especially bedazzling (a BA and MA) but the way they are shouting them from the dust cover makes one wonder if they expect their readership to be impressed by a Masters from a British University (where they are a lot easier to come by than in North America).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> For anyone wishing to further examine the so called Jesus Myth, I recommend both parts of <a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html" target=_top>Good question......was Jesus Christ just a CopyCat Savior Myth?</a>
Offline
Come on Elaine, Jesus would have said: <BR> <BR><b><font color="0000ff">“Death is coming. Life is foreplay.” <BR></font></b> <BR> <BR>Revisionists, both Gandy and Freke.
Offline
Here is a fairly comprehensive resource that addresses the question <a href="http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html" target=_top>Were Bible stories and characters stolen from pagan myths?</a> Hopefully, this will at least present an alternative to the New Age philosophies being presented by some here. <BR> <BR>I spent some time last weekend with an old friend who grew up in the SDA church with me. Like me, she is no longer an SDA; we both left the church in the early 1970's. <BR> <BR>I have not seen her for over 30 years, she has become quite accomplished and has had a radio show, written a few books, and has been a motivational speaker. Like Elaine, she favors a generic, do good and be nice, form of spirituality and cites many of the same authors. I have invited her to spend some time in an actual Bible believing church, not just a single visit. <BR> <BR>I pray that God will continue to call both her and Elaine to Himself and that he will reveal Himself to them. I pray that the salvation story becomes real in their lives. <BR> <BR>Once we come to know God, everything changes, we come to see the world through different and brand new eyes, and like a new born baby, growth is expected. Elaine, this is my prayer for you. I think that you are a genuinely nice, caring and sincere person, I also sincerely believe you to be wrong. <BR> <BR>True Christianity, is not a religion, it's not a list of do's and don'ts to be checked off, it is a new birth and is accompanied by repentance, along a new realization of, and value for, life. The Life that was intended for us at Creation, but was stolen as a result of sin. The sin of Adam and Eve followed by our own personal sins. It's not that complicated. <BR> <BR>A new life is freely offered to all who simply believe, may God guide you to the bloody, rugged and wonderful cross, and show you it's purpose.
Offline
The reviews are non-biased coming from Amazon. <BR> <BR>Choose or not to believe who you will. It's a free world. But it's best to be knowledgeable about things you speak of before speaking. <BR> <BR>Lots of little children once believed in Santa Claus. When they become adult if they still believe in a literal Santa Claus (rather than the spirit of Christmas) don't we think that they have not yet matured? When someone is satisfied that he already knows everything, he cannot be open to learning.
Offline
Elaine, <BR> <BR>I expected better from you. <BR> <BR>Would you accept a group of random commentators on an open website as being authoritative about the writings of William Shakespeare? Or would you consider someone who has engaged in a lifetime of study in the works of Shakespeare as having a more valid defense (apologetic)? <BR> <BR>I don't believe that you can be so gullible as to accept comments on Amazon as being authoritative. Would you quote Amazon posters in a document submitted for scholarly review?
Offline
<font color="0000ff">The reviews are non-biased coming from Amazon.</font> <BR> <BR>If I remember correctly from some class during my freshman year in College, everyone has a bias, those who write, or speak, reflect their bias in what they choose to write or speak about. <BR> <BR>I can't remember the class, might have been an English or Sociology class, but that bit of knowledge somehow stuck with me 35+ years later.
Offline
<font color="0000ff">When someone is satisfied that he already knows everything, he cannot be open to learning.</font> <BR> <BR>Personally, I have yet to encounter this all knowing straw man.
Offline
Having read Amazon reviews for a number of years, they are certainly not all complimentary. <BR>Reading them, I have decided to either buy, or not buy books based on the "biased" reviews. If they print both positive and negative, how can be be "biased"?
Offline
<b><font color="0000ff">If they print both positive and negative, how can be be "biased"?</font></b> <BR> <BR>Ahhh, such is life. We can only offer what we have to share. We cannot remove bias from our souls nor can we infuse our bias into others. The experience is totally unique. We open to that which we choose. <BR><font color="ffffff"><font size="-2">.</font></font>
Offline
We call other's opinions bias; ours are always objective <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/wink.gif" border=0>
Offline
One is not biased when one's opinion turns out to be able to be proven correct, as in whether a medicine is thought to be causing further harm or not, and one doctor's call or diagnosis saves a life, then an opinion can be unbiased. The same in religion. The same with God's word. If you steal and consequences are bad, maybe God isn't biased in His instructions, eh?? Not everything is subjective as agnostics/athiestis would like it to be to further their cause.
Offline
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>Maybe it is also a scary thought for some people. If someone put us here with a purpose, if someone is ‘watching’ what we do, are we doing it well? Are we doing the right things? Do we dare accept that responsibility? Don’t we just end up with some religious system? An unscientific system? Isn’t it better to hang on to what we have, because everyone is? Do we want this? Do we want to be a ‘creation’? Don’t we lose our freedom? <BR><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.evolutionisdegeneration.com/index.asp?PaginaID=1122" target=_top>http://www.evolutionisdegeneration.com/index.asp?P aginaID=1122</a> <BR> <BR>If a theory or opiinion can be proven, then it is not biased, is it, read the reat of this author. Is she bias or proven her view???
Offline
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>What's clear is that Obama is following through on his campaign promise to think big and, at times, fundamentally alter the political calculus in Washington. It's a high risk, high reward strategy befitting a politician who believes himself to be a historic man in historic times. <BR> <BR><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR><a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/white-house/obama-bets-big-on-big-governme.html" target=_top>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/white-hous e/obama-bets-big-on-big-governme.html</a> <BR> <BR>I guess only time will tell if Obama's bias will prove true and disprove the already proven Reagan Doctrine of less spending, or tax cuts.
Offline