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#26 02-10-10 3:42 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,788

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Tom, here are some simple steps that should help, rather than the long rambling diatribe:

1. Make/Agree EGW is devotional. Set her on the self. 

2. Grab your Bible only.

3. Then see from the NT and OT texts that Christ/the Seed would fulfill the OC and all its trimmings.

You are having trouble with all this because you were taught God never changes. In your mind, going from OC to NC that is a change in God, and that can not be, in your mind. However, it is exactly what God prophesied  would happen, the sovereign God, who has the right to move and state things how He wishes, not according to your mind or mine. BUT, you have to read the Bible, GOD'S WORD, more purely than you are with EGW mixed in. Notice I didn't necessarily say that you must read the Bible literally, when you pray for discernment, God will direct when to read allegorically, or literally.

If God says the rest is yet to come, it can't be a 24 hour period, but something else. It clarifies the Gospel's ultimate objective, REST, found in Christ's forgiveness only obtained on the cross by HIM. No day can do that. Sure, the joy of a day off is just that, man's joy in physical rest but it does nothing for his sinful soul.

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#27 02-10-10 4:31 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,788

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Tom, If God doesn't change, why the killing of the guy who was just trying to stabilize the ark when God said not to touch it. Why were other OT players killed for what today would be impossible  to understand  in our NC context. If God will judge all men by the same law, and that is what you are hung up on, YOU GOT A LOTA SPLAININ' TO DO LUCY.

Last edited by bob_2 (02-10-10 4:32 pm)

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#28 02-11-10 1:25 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 782
Website

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Bob 2 said: Tom, … You are having trouble with all this because you were taught God never changes.

Tom said:  I am not having any trouble whatsoever articulating and defending the NC Sabbath.  You on the other hand, are lost in a fog of assumptions, bad hermeneutics, and wishful thinking. 

The change from the OT to the New was in the mind of God all the time.  It was a hidden plan, revealed only in the 1st century to mankind.  Thus the change from the OC Sabbath to the NC Sabbath came right on schedule.

Eph. 3:1  For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles —

Eph. 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;

Eph. 3:3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.

Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Eph. 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Eph. 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Eph. 3:7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.

Bob 2 said:  In your mind, going from OC to NC that is a change in God, and that can not be, in your mind.

Tom said:  This discussion is not about my mind, but about the teachings of the NT.  The NT shows a major change from the OC.  Why deny such a clear and well-accepted point?

Bob 2 said:  BUT, you have to read the Bible, GOD'S WORD, more purely than you are with EGW mixed in. Notice I didn't necessarily say that you must read the Bible literally, when you pray for discernment, God will direct when to read allegorically, or literally.

Tom said:  You do not have the hermeneutical knowledge or experience to lecture anyone about how to understand the Bible, much less Adventist history.  I suggest you study more a post less my friend.

Bob 2 said:  If God says the rest is yet to come, it can't be a 24 hour period, but something else. It clarifies the Gospel's ultimate objective, REST, found in Christ's forgiveness only obtained on the cross by HIM. No day can do that. Sure, the joy of a day off is just that, man's joy in physical rest but it does nothing for his sinful soul.

Tom said:  First; Heb 4: 9 is not talking about a spiritualized rest in Christ, but an actual 7th day, weekly Sabbath.  This is a linquistical fact that cannot be denied. 

Do everyone a favor and stop talking so foolishly and educate yourself about the original text.  The Greek disproves your view and makes your interpretation impossible.  Sorry.

Second, the text is addressing those Jews who already were Christians.  So they had already been forgiven of their sins.  They already had the spiritual rest that Jesus affords them by faith. 

Third, the NC Sabbath is no longer to be viewed as if it were “a day off.”  The NC Sabbath is not so much about physical rest, like in the OC, but rather, it is a day to hear the Gospel, worship God, and do good works.  It is an active, working Sabbath that few understand correctly.

Bob 2 said: If God will judge all men by the same law, and that is what you are hung up on, YOU GOT A LOTA SPLAININ' TO DO LUCY.

Tom said:  God designed a dramatic change from the OC to the NC.  The Sabbath is greatly affected by this change as explained by Jesus in all four of the Gospels.  This is what we are discussing.  The Gospel Sabbath for the NC Church.

Those who embrace the Gospel, have eternal life now.  They never come under judgment.  Besides, those that embrace the NC Sabbath can do all manner of activity and work on the Gospel Sabbath without being guilty of sin. 

This is the opposite of what the SDA’s teach.  Why?  Because they only know the OC Sabbath.  They have never fully understood the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath.  Nor do they profess any desire to do so.

So Bob 2, thanks for sharing, but your view is hopelessly wrong.  I suggest that you study these issues deeper so that you can better understand.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

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#29 02-11-10 4:52 pm

bob
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 296

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Third, the NC Sabbath is no longer to be viewed as if it were “a day off.”  The NC Sabbath is not so much about physical rest, like in the OC, but rather, it is a day to hear the Gospel, worship God, and do good works.  It is an active, working Sabbath that few understand correctly.

Quite possibly Tom Norris is the ONLY one who understands this new Sabbath.  My conclusion is that it is a figment of his imagination.  How could anyone else understand it?  There is nothing in scripture that supports it.  Maybe Tom is using the following to create his new found doctrine. smile

Matthew 18:18
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.


Tom, there is no NC Sabbath because there is no directive for any Sabbath.

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#30 02-13-10 9:56 am

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 782
Website

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Bob said:  Quite possibly Tom Norris is the ONLY one who understands this new Sabbath.  My conclusion is that it is a figment of his imagination. 

Tom said:  I admit it: I do understand the Gospel Sabbath.  It is not a delusion, but a clear and obvious teaching of the NT. 

Those who don’t comprehend it as yet would do better to withhold their judgment than attack and dismiss what they admittedly don’t understand.

Moreover, Dr. Desmond Ford, the leading Adventist theologian, also understands this doctrine.  It’s just that the leaders didn’t want to hear anything he had to say if it conflicted with their views.  So he was banished from teaching the SDA’s the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.

Those who want to understand this Christian doctrine must first go to the Gospels and see what Jesus teaches.  Any that refuse to honestly study Jesus teachings about the Gospel Sabbath, have no right to criticize what they have not read, and what they do not understand.

Jesus speaks about how difficult it is to understand the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.   However, those that think they have religion all figured out, are in for a big surprise, even as those that are humble and teachable will understand.

Matt. 11:25  At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.

Matt. 11:26 “Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

Matt. 11:27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Matt. 11:28  “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

Matt. 11:30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Matt. 12:1  At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.

Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”

Neither the Gospel nor the active, working, Gospel Sabbath was easy for the Jews to understand.  To reject one is to reject the other.  Which is why it is so important to understand the NC Sabbath correctly.

To dismiss the NC Sabbath and call it a delusion is blasphemy.  One cannot remain a Christian with such a rebellious, anti-Gospel position.

Jesus is not the Lord of a delusional Sabbath is he?  Of course not.  So why pretend he is?  Why mock and repudiate his Sabbath?  Why insist it does not exist or that it is now a state of mind and an allegory?  (Or that it must be Sunday.)  This is not what Jesus or the NT teaches.

Jesus did not think the Sabbath was a figment of his imagination, and neither did the Jews.  Nor did he teach that the weekly Sabbath was going to become extinct after the cross.  No.  He redefined and reformed it for the church.  Thus all the apostles and all the early Christians understood the NC Sabbath of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.

Today, with so much knowledge and information available, there is no excuse for anyone to not understand this discussion about the Gospel Sabbath.  Least of all, those from the SDA community. They are the ones that CORRECTLY pushed the Sabbath to the front, and CORRECTLY declared Sunday a fraud.

Now they need to GO FORWARD and complete their Sabbath Reform. 

How? 

By repenting for their distorted Gospel and Old Covenant Sabbath.  By understanding and embracing the active Gospel Sabbath that Jesus clearly promotes in all four Gospels. 

There is genuine Sabbath for church, and it needs to be understood first by the SDA’s.  Why?  Because it is a continuation of their eschatological mission.

Bob said:  How could anyone else understand it?  There is nothing in scripture that supports it. 

Tom said:  How can you read the Gospels and deny that Jesus is promoting a very different, NC Sabbath to accompany his Gospel ministry? 

How can anyone deny the numerous Sabbath accounts in the Gospels? 

How can anyone ignore the clear and plain teachings of Jesus and yet still pretend they follow him?

At the end of time, Gospel knowledge will be increased, and thus the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath will become better understood along with eschatology.

Dan. 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

Dan. 12:8 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?”

Dan. 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

Dan. 12:10 “Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.

Those that seek Gospel truth must LISTEN to Jesus.  He is to be their instructor about the Gospel Sabbath.

Mark 7:14  After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand:

John 8:12  Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

Jesus is the primary theologian of the Church.  When those that follow him are fully trained, they will embrace all of his Gospel teachings, including his active, NC Sabbath doctrine.  They will repudiate Sunday, the OC Sabbath, and the Allegorical Sabbath.

To refuse the Gospel Sabbath is to refuse the Gospel itself.  Those who make this error are walking in delusion and darkness.

Thus, at the end of time, the Sabbath doctrine will become a litmus test for the Gospel.  The type of Sabbath one embraces has a direct correlation to their view of the Gospel.  Those with the true Gospel, will happily embrace the Gospel Sabbath.  All others will embrace worthless fraud.

Bob said:  Tom, there is no NC Sabbath because there is no directive for any Sabbath.

Tom said:  You must have never read the Gospels?  All four of them clearly record Jesus’ New Covenant Sabbath teachings.  How can anyone deny such an obvious fact?

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Jesus teaches that the Sabbath was “made” by God, for the benefit of mankind.  Just like the Gospel, the Sabbath is made for all that embrace the Gospel Story. 

Moreover, while Jesus is called the Lord of many things:  such as the Lord of the Harvest, the Lord of Glory, the Lord of Peace, and the Lord of Lords, he also takes control of the Sabbath, even claiming to also be the Lord of the Sabbath.

So here is a directive from Jesus about the Sabbath.  He is not changing the Sabbath to Sunday or removing it from the duty of the church.  He is forever elevating it to something very special.

The doctrine of the weekly Sabbath is such an obvious fact in the Gospels, that the church, meaning every church and denomination in the world, disagrees with you.  Which is why for century after century, both RC and Protestants, have ALWAYS had a weekly Sabbath.  Even to this very day.  (The fact it is Sunday is beside the point.) 

So your position has correctly been repudiated from the start.   The weekly Sabbath is part of the duty and practice of the church and thus it has always been, and so it will always be.  It’s too late to pretend otherwise.

Jesus has much to say about the Sabbath in the NT.  He assumed it was a valid doctrine before he defended and reformed it.  Then he made it even more legitimate by claiming to be its Lord and revising it.   Thus he redefined the Sabbath for the Jewish Church. 

In fact, there never was a time when Jesus dismisses or removes the Sabbath, even though he does make dramatic changes to this doctrine.  So the Sabbath is part of the Gospel Story.  It is a central doctrine found in both the OC and the New.  It must be understood correctly by the church, along with the rest of the Gospel Story.

Thus when Jesus asks: 

Mark 3:4 “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?”

He is assuming the Sabbath is valid, the duty of all those that follow the Hebrew God.  And so it is for those in both Covenants.

Of course he claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath because he was the divine, co-Creator.  So this is another reason why the Sabbath plays such a large role with Jesus, and within the Jewish/ Christian paradigm.  He is Lord of All, including the Sabbath.

Jesus even went so far as to claim that his new Sabbath teaching was from God, even as he expected this doctrine to be practiced by his followers at the end of the age, just prior to the Tribulation.

So Jesus reformed the OC Sabbath and established the NC Sabbath for the Church, forever.  Thus the Gospel Sabbath is under his authority, directive, and definition.  He has taken personal ownership of this doctrine, explaining it in detail. 

Who dares tell Jesus he is wrong?  Who has such authority or nerve? 

Like Hebrews correctly states:  There is a weekly Sabbath Day for the church to embrace.  But it is not the Sabbath of the SDA’s or the Sunday Keepers, they are both very wrong and must repent.

There is only one Gospel, one Lord, and one Sabbath for the Church.  It is time that all understood these things, especially the confused and dishonest SDA’s.

Today, there is a new Sabbath for the Laodicean church to understand and embrace.  Let the Advent Movement lead the way in Sabbath Reform and repent for their many false and childish views.

Let them embrace the Gospel Sabbath with both hands and zealously repent for being so wrong about so many doctrines.  It is time for the SDA’s to grow up and show some humility and maturity.

Eph. 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Eph. 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Eph. 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Eph. 4:14  As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

Eph. 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

Eph. 4:16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

It is time for the Advent Movement to repent and grow up.  It is time to REFORM and Re-organize the self-destructing and confused SDA church.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”


Tom Norris for Sabbath Reform in the SDA church

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#31 02-13-10 12:10 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,788

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Tom, here is HERMENEUTICS defined:

1 :  the study of the methodological principles of interpretation (as of the Bible)
2 : a method or principle of interpretation

Do you have some sort of claim to the right hermeneutics or interpretation of the Bible? What put you as that "John the Baptist" sole voice, that is being ignored, as the correct interpretation of the Bible. The Holy Spirit is the guide not Tom Norris. I read your "stuff" and coldness comes over me. Especially when it can't be backed by scripture. You quote it, but it does not claim what you say it does. You are hanging on to what you were taught, not what the Holy Spirit is point you to. You insult the intelligence of those that are earnestly studying and have a logic to what they have found in God's Word. You are like the French-Canadian language, a slang of the pure French language. Read the Bible, factor out EGW, and what you were taught, and read it fresh. You will see another story than what you are telling. Sabbath is central to what you are saying not Christ who fulfilled it in Himself. This puzzles me. Something in your walk as a Christian has ingrained this in you. Why isn't anyone listening,  Tom??

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#32 02-13-10 4:57 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 782
Website

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Bob 2 said: The Holy Spirit is the guide not Tom Norris.

Tom said:  The HS gives gifts to the church.  You can accept them or not. 

1Cor. 12:4  Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Cor. 12:5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.

1Cor. 12:6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

1Cor. 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

1Cor. 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

1Cor. 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

1Cor. 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

1Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Note that making up false doctrines is not a gift of the Spirit.  Nor is being hardheaded and refusing to admit error.  Your view of the Sabbath is impossible and wrong.  Why not admit it and move on?

Bob 2 said:  I read your "stuff" and coldness comes over me. Especially when it can't be backed by scripture.

Tom said:  Ha!  You might be cold because it’s WINTER!  I suggest you check your thermostat rather than accuse me of causing your discomfort.

Bob 2 said:  You quote scripture, but it does not claim what you say it does.

Tom said; Ha!  This is too funny.  Are you serious?

YOU are the one claiming that Jesus teaches he is the Sabbath rest and therefore the Sabbath has been removed from the church.  But you failed to find a single verse in the NT where Jesus made such a claim!

Jesus never taught your heretical Sabbath doctrine and neither did Paul.  So you are the one quoting scripture incorrectly and making up doctrines—not me.

The same can also be said of your view of Heb 4: 9.  You think the text means a spiritual Sabbath.  But had you taken the time to look at this passage in the original language, you would have discovered your error. 

Such sloppy hermeneutics shows you are an amateur.  Anyone who is serious about understanding the Bible must also look at the original text before proclaiming to the world what they think any passage may mean. 

So this proves you are untrained, a loose cannon who lacks the discipline and skills to study the Word effectively.

Today, it is a simple matter to look up the Greek of Heb 4: 9 and see what the scholars say about this text.  Had you taken the time to do so, (online) you would have discovered in a few seconds that the Greek word for Sabbath is unlike any other in the entire Bible.  It means the opposite of what you and others claim. 

The facts prove you wrong, but yet you refuse to repent.  This is the typical SDA attitude of “know it all” arrogance that has infected so many.  Even when people leave the SDA church, they still hold to their worthless hermeneutics and Gospel confusion.

Bob 2 said:  You are hanging on to what you were taught, not what the Holy Spirit is pointing out you to.

Tom said:  Ha!  Once again your statements are proven false.  I was never taught the Gospel Sabbath by the SDA’s.  Why would you say such a thing?

I was born and raised an SDA.  Therefore, I was taught the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees.  I was taught it was a sin not to be ready to greet the Sabbath on Friday evening.  It was a sin to do any work or play, or watch TV at all.  There was a list of rules that was very long.

You are making many false assumptions, which then lead you to false conclusions. 

Bob 2 said: You insult the intelligence of those that are earnestly studying and have a logic to what they have found in God's Word.

Tom said:  Those that are “earnestly studying” the Word will not be so lazy as to ignore the linquistical analysis, which is so fundamental to a correct understanding of the Bible.

So your logic is flawed and you are not approaching this topic with the necessary skill or discipline.

The fact you mistranslated Heb 4: 9 in order to support your mythical view of the Sabbath works to undercut whatever intelligence and honesty you may have.  And then you go ahead and still pretend your view is correct when it has been shattered beyond repair. 

Is this what you call “intelligence”?  I call your behavior being very foolish. 

When you are proven wrong, which you have been many times in this discussion, you need to admit it and change your view. 

Pay attention:  Jesus did not teach he was the Sabbath or that it was to be abolished after the cross.  Nor is your view of Heb 4: 9 or Col 3: 16 correct. 

In fact, you don’t understand the Gospel correctly, because if you did, you would not claim that Jesus was an Old Testament figure or be confused about when the NC starts.

So learn how to study the Bible correctly and stop pretending you know more than you do.  You have much to learn, starting with how to repent.   Be thankful that someone has led you to the facts so that you can stop embarrassing yourself.

Bob 2 said:  Read the Bible, factor out EGW, and what you were taught, and read it fresh. You will see another story than what you are telling.

Tom said:  The Gospel Sabbath does not come from Ellen White.  While I think she would embrace this more active, working Sabbath, this is not really what she advocated. 

Why?  Because she was raised in a very legalistic, Judaizing community.  So Ellen White is not the driving force behind this doctrine.  She was never theologically mature enough to grasp the fullness of the NC Sabbath.

There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Story.  The NC Sabbath is part of that story.  This fact will stand forever. 

Bob 2 said: Sabbath is central to what you are saying not Christ who fulfilled it in Himself. This puzzles me. Something in your walk as a Christian has ingrained this in you. Why isn't anyone listening,  Tom??

Tom said:  The Sabbath was so central and important to Jesus, that it took center stage in his short Gospel ministry.  It puzzles me that you, or anyone would try to deny such an obvious fact.

As to why so few listen to the Gospel teachings of Jesus?  Jesus told a parable about a “sower” that speaks to this point. 

But you are correct to say that the SDA leaders do not want anything to do with Adventist Reform.  They are too busy with their delusion of pretending that they are living in the Old Covenant.  This is why their pastors act like the modern day Levites, and collect tithe every, OC Sabbath, even as they preach a false, IJ based Gospel.  Pitiful.

In conclusion, there is a Gospel Sabbath for the church.  Those that deny this fact, refusing to repent for their incorrect Sabbath views, have repudiated the Gospel and insulted the Lord of the Sabbath.  They have fallen from grace and are standing outside the Kingdom of God.

Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform

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#33 02-14-10 7:48 am

george
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 270

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Tom,
Assuming the Sabbath has  nothing to do with what one thinks about it  as to what it means, and everything to do with what one does or doesn't do on that day, how is your idea of the NC "Sabbath keeping" different from no Sabbath keeping?  Is a trip to the church the only difference?  I'm not being facetious. 

I'm assuming you don't think the Sabbath has any spiritual significance and merely part of what the Jews did and didn't do on any particular days - temple services.  If the Sabbath is only for REST mimicking God's rest after creation, then it has no spiritual meaning.  All the other services the Jews had for their religious life the NT relegates to being SHADOWS that were met by Jesus, his life and his death.  I also assume you place the weekly Sabbath into a different category than the other Sabbaths.  However, the NT speaks of the law having been transferred "from tables of stone to man's heart".  Galatians makes it very clear that the ENTIRE law is covered by the one statement, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF  - Gal. 5:14, (and I assume it's counterpart to LOVE GOD that was previously included by Jesus'  statement on the matter).

On the other hand, if the "holy days" and all that was part of the OC religious services had some spiritual significance -  they were all replaced by Christ (for the Christian).  Christianity isn't a religion of ceremony as though the ritual BEING THE WHOLE MEANING, except for the Catholics maybe.  In other words, we don't do a bunch of stuff thinking that the mere doing of them is the purpose of the whole exercise, as the Catholic faith does.  The Christian emblems are just that - emblems and that includes the Sabbath.  No one is saved by  merely DOING  anything.  It's what reaches the inner person ( the heart) that has any meaning, otherwise, Christianity is equal to any other superstition where you simply perform some ritual and think that that covers your obligations.

Christianity is about what fuels your life.  Worship time is a time you set aside to concentrate on spiritual aspects of your life, unencumbered with thoughts and worries of your everyday life.   As such, the Sabbath is certainly meaningful; but, to give it any more significance than that, makes the Sabbath vital to salvation - especially as the SDA church has placed the Sabbath above all the rest of the commandments, if only by emphasis; and has made it the focal point of its faith and eschatology.  To say that only Sabbath keepers (in whatever form) are going to "be saved" is basing salvation on Sabbath keeping which is clearly a matter of WORKS- something the NT rejects outright.

If, on the other hand, "the time spent in worship" is the significance of the Sabbath, then any day will do; and I think, Paul makes that very clear.  Christianity is a Pauline institution.  Very few follow Jesus' words exclusively.  It was Paul who placed Christ into a "church" and any services that church performed.  Before that, Christianity was a Jewish sect.

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#34 02-14-10 6:52 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,788

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Tom check out Stong's on Heb 4:9:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex … 4520&t=KJV

Here it is different than other Sabbath's but refers to :

the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians

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#35 02-17-10 11:36 am

Dexter
Member
Registered: 02-10-10
Posts: 43

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Bob,

I find it interesting, if not comical,  that you would supply a reference from Strong's to support your view and cite the secondary meaning or usage of the word Sabbath in Heb. 4:9 when in fact the first usage supports what Tom has been saying all along, namely:

1) a keeping sabbath


Let every lamp be burning bright, the darkest hour is nearing...

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#36 02-17-10 1:41 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,788

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Comical, read the context and make your choice. That's what discernment is all about. If that text is among texts like Heb 8:13, then one would pick the second meaning, would they not. The Jews were the best keepers but dis not enter THE REST, Hebrews 4 context.

Dexter, a dictionary has words with a lot of different meanings. I suppose one can show their bias by which meaning they choose, I like to think, I paid attention to the context.

Also, check out the KEEPING that Jesus had in mind by His response here:

John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Last edited by bob_2 (02-17-10 1:55 pm)

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#37 02-17-10 8:30 pm

george
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 270

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

"Jews were the best keepers but dis not enter THE REST, Hebrews 4 context."

Exactly, Bob.  Context is something that SDA interpretations have a hard time dealing with.

Last edited by george (02-17-10 8:32 pm)

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#38 02-18-10 2:12 am

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 782
Website

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Sirje said:  Assuming the Sabbath has nothing to do with what one thinks about it… and everything to do with what one does or doesn't do on that day; how is your idea of the NC "Sabbath keeping" different from no Sabbath keeping? 

Tom said: There is a great difference between NC Sabbath keeping and NO Sabbath keeping.  (Just as there is a great difference between OC and NC Sabbath keeping).

Let’s see what the NC Sabbath means:

1.  That the Gospel is a 100% Jewish paradigm. 

There is no Gentile doctrine in the Church because the Christian Faith is really reformed Judaism.  It is not Gentile whatsoever.  Both the OT and the NT are Jewish.  The NC Sabbath screams this fundamental point that so few want to understand. 

The Church is Jewish; the NC Sabbath proclaims this fundamental point, even as Sunday means the opposite.

2.  That Jesus is the co-Creator and thus Lord of Lords, including the head of the Church, and “even” Lord of the weekly, 7th day Sabbath. 

Those who acknowledge Jesus authority as Creator, Redeemer, and Teacher, will follow his Words and embrace his Gospel, including his reformed and active Sabbath, which is called an “easy” or “light” Sabbath.


Matt. 11:28  “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

Matt. 11:30 “For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Matt. 12:1  At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.

Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”…

Notice the progression here: 

1.  Come to Jesus by faith; receive rest & salvation.
2.  Submit to him as Teacher; follow his Word/ do what he says.
3.  Embrace the “Easy” and “Light” Reformed Sabbath.

Note: here is a good biblical term for the NC Sabbath.  It comes directly from the teachings of Jesus, even within the specific context of his Sabbath Reforms. 

The NC Sabbath can be called an “Easy” Sabbath or “Sabbath Light.”  I prefer Gospel Sabbath, or NC Sabbath.  But of course there are others like the “working” or Reformed Sabbath that could also work. 

No Sabbath

Those that do not believe in any Sabbath, do not believe Christ or his Gospel, much less that Jesus is the co- Creator or that the Christian Faith is 100% Jewish.   They are not submitting to Jesus as Teacher nor are they paying attention to the Word.  So the differences are obvious and enormous between those that embrace the NC Sabbath and those that do not.

The Gospel Sabbath is only for those that embrace the genuine Gospel.  All others have a different agenda and viewpoint.

For example, the Sunday keepers do not accept the fact that the Church is Jewish.  This is why the Gentiles invented a Sunday Sabbath.   It is nothing but Gentile foolishness and false doctrine.  It was a way to for the anti-Semitic Gentiles to co-opt the Gospel Story from the Jews, inserting one myth after another, even as they pretend that the Gospel and the Church is Gentile in nature, when this was never true.

Of course we can also see how the NC Sabbath is so different from what the SDA’s teach.  They have been playing the role of the Pharisees all these years and now they have been caught.  The SDA’s do not embrace the correct Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath, even though they do have the correct day.

So the way one views the Gospel will determine their view of the Sabbath.  Those Laodiceans that come to correctly understand the Gospel, will repent for their past errors and flock to the genuine Gospel, which also includes the NC Sabbath.  It is just this simple. 

Those that don’t embrace the correct Gospel, will have a different Sabbath from what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.

There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath.  Period!

Sirje said:  Is a trip to the church the only difference?  I'm not being facetious.

Tom said:  The difference is the GOSPEL! 

The difference is in how we view God, man, the Word, salvation, and the teachings of Jesus.

Thus the NC Sabbath, when practiced by the church, makes a difference on many levels, even as it condemns all those that have embraced anti-Semitism, theological fraud and a false Christ.

Gospel Activity on the Sabbath

The NT shows Jesus (and Paul) very active on the Sabbath.  We see them routinely meeting with the Community to worship God and teach the Gospel.   Thus, it is the emphasis on the GOSPEL that makes the Sabbath special. 

It is an “easy” day for those that have been saved, even as it is part of the Gospel Story forever.  It is the Lord’s Day.

The meeting of the church on the 7th day also sends a signal to all that there is a Jewish paradigm in action.  The 7th day Sabbath is a universal sign of Judaism and so it will be forever.  The Gospel is Jewish.  It is an extension of Judaism and so it will forever be. 

Jesus, the apostles and the entire Bible is 100% Jewish.  The Gospel and the Gospel Story are Jewish.  This is a stunning truth that should no longer remain a secret. 

Such a theological fact locks the Sabbath into the Christian Faith forever.  And the church has correctly understood this fact all during its long history.  The problem is that they have had a distorted Gospel, and therefore the wrong Sabbath all these years. 

The correction of both is what the SDA’s referred to as the loud Cry of the 4th Angels Message.   They claimed to have the final Gospel and the correct Sabbath to prove it.  But now it turns out they have neither. 

All that bragging is now a badge of their dishonesty and incompetence for all to see.  They have the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath.  Making their eschatology worthless and very wrong.

Sirje said:  I'm assuming you don't think the Sabbath has any spiritual significance and merely part of what the Jews did and didn't do on any particular days - temple services. 

Tom said:  The NC Sabbath has great theological, spiritual, and physical significance.  It has all manner of Gospel meaning.  I never said otherwise.  (Also besides the “Temple Services” there was a system of synagogues that is the forerunner of the church.  There was only one Temple, but many synagogues all over the land and even the world.)

Sirje said:  If the Sabbath is only for REST mimicking God's rest after creation, then it has no spiritual meaning. 

Tom said:  Jesus linked the Sabbath to the Gospel, as well as to the Priesthood of all believers.  He transformed it from the non-working, schoolmaster type Sabbath that was focused on the law into an “Easy Sabbath” for the new Israel of God. 

Jesus changed the Sabbath doctrine from one of inactivity to one of much activity.  Thus heavens view of our weekly Sabbath “rest” is going out and doing good works.  Not resting as the SDA’s teach. 

Jesus wants to see an active and united Church every Gospel Sabbath.  But what he sees makes him vomit. 

Sirje said:  All the other services the Jews had for their religious life the NT relegates to being SHADOWS that were met by Jesus, his life and his death. 

Tom said:  This is hardly true.  The Jews had an active religious life that including praying to God, reading and hearing the scriptures read, as well as meeting every 7th day to worship collectively. This rich religious tradition was adopted by the NC Church. 

Such practices, and many more that were revised, like baptizing, and the Passover, also became part of the Christian ceremonial laws of the church.   

So it is wrong to think that the church has no ceremonial laws, or that such a thing is limited to the OC.   In fact, the red wine in the Eucharist refers to the past events of the cross as well as to the future establishment of the kingdom of God.  It points backwards and forwards.  So too does the Sabbath.  This is the purpose of such doctrines, so as not to forget the past or ignore the future.

The church has clearly taken a number of doctrines directly from the OT and recalibrated them for the church.  The same thing also takes place with the Sabbath.  Which is why there is an OC Sabbath and a very different NC Sabbath.

Sirje said:  I also assume you place the weekly Sabbath into a different category than the other Sabbaths.

Tom said:  The NC Sabbath is based on the OC Moral law, which represents the standard in both Covenants.   

Sirje said:  However, the NT speaks of the law having been transferred "from tables of stone to man's heart". 

Tom said:  This is a reference to the Moral law.  It means that Gospel minded people would want to do the right thing automatically.  Thus love is the fulfillment of the law.

Sirje said:  Galatians makes it very clear that the ENTIRE law is covered by the one statement, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF  - Gal. 5:14, (and I assume it's counterpart to LOVE GOD that was previously included by Jesus' statement on the matter).

Tom said:  Jesus is the one that teaches this definition about the law.  Paul is getting his Galatian theology from Jesus, who is also the same original source for the Gospel and the Sabbath. 

Besides love does not do away with Jesus teaching about the Sabbath.  Nor is his Sabbath teaching based on the Law of Moses, aka the 10 Commandments. Rather, it is based on a loophole in the law (for the Levites) as well as his own authority and that of his father in heaven.

Sirje said:  On the other hand, if the "holy days" and all that was part of the OC religious services had some spiritual significance - they were all replaced by Christ (for the Christian). 

Tom said:  Just because Christ is the Messiah, that in and of itself is no reason for “all” religious ceremonies to be banished from the NC.  This is not what happened.  Rather, many OC Jewish doctrines, like the Sabbath, Passover, and ritual cleansing became revised for the Church. 

Thus, the Sabbath, baptism by immersion, and the Eucharist remain today as fundamental NC doctrines.  Their source was originally the OC, but with some Gospel adjustment, they fit the needs of the church and became doctrine for the church in the wisdom and planning of God, through Christ.

Those that want to try and remove the Sabbath, claiming there can be no ceremonial doctrines for the church, and that Christ fulfilled everything, must also do away with the Eucharist and Baptism.   This would destroy the church.

Sirje said:  Christianity isn't a religion of ceremony as though the ritual BEING THE WHOLE MEANING, except for the Catholics maybe. 

Tom said:  I never suggested that the Gospel is all about rituals.  It is not.  It should be all about the teachings of Jesus.  Which is all about love to man and God, and doing good deeds.

But who pays any attention to what he is really saying?  Not the Jews or the SDA’s!  Not the RC’s!  Not the Mormons!  Not even any of the mainline Protestant denominations.

Don’t be so hard on the RC’s.  Every church in the land has a distorted Gospel and a false view of the Sabbath and many other things.  That is why they all are judged guilty in the PAJ of the church, which is the LM.

Sirje said:  In other words, we don't do a bunch of stuff thinking that the mere doing of them is the purpose of the whole exercise, as the Catholic faith does. 

Tom said:  Religion always goes bad.  It always becomes reduced to behavior modification based on fear and guilt by the religious elites. 

It is the nature of men, not just the RC’s.  It’s just they have had more experience and time at being corrupt, so they have many more absurd doctrines than others.  But give any denomination that much power and time to develop, and they too will quickly go corrupt.

The SDA’s went corrupt in the second generation.  While they started out honest and open, they soon declared they had all the answers.  (They actually stated this view in public).  With such an arrogant and closed attitude, it is no wonder that they self-destructed in Battle Creek.  Not even Ellen White could get through to Uriah Smith and the self assured, egotistical, and legalistic leaders who refused to believe they could be wrong.

But they were very wrong. 

Then after the great schism and retreat to Takoma Park, they went corrupt again, hiding Ellen White documents and creating a fraudulent church history that led the church to repeat the same errors as before in Battle Creek.  The Takoma Park leaders also declared they had all the answers and all the truth, and any that did not agree could leave or be thrown out.

So it is normal for all denominations to become controlled by incompetent, dishonest, and evil men.  This is how it works.  Money, power, and control become the real point for those in charge, and soon the truth becomes irrelevant and annoying.

Sirje said:  The Christian emblems are just that - emblems and that includes the Sabbath. 

Tom said:  I agree that the NC Sabbath should be viewed as an “emblem” of the Gospel Story.  Good for you to see this!  It is a living emblem, like the church that embraces it. 

No wonder Jesus takes such a special liking to the Sabbath.  It represents his Gospel as well as and his Creation exploits, and even the Priesthood of all believers.  It also represents Eternal life and the eternal rest that comes with the New Earth. 

So yes indeed.  The Sabbath is a very special and unique Gospel doctrine or emblem.  This is why it is so important to understand it correctly.

Sirje said:  No one is saved by merely DOING anything.  It's what reaches the inner person (the heart) that has any meaning, otherwise, Christianity is equal to any other superstition where you simply perform some ritual and think that that covers your obligations.

Tom said:  We are ONLY saved by the Gospel. 

Sirje said:  Christianity is about what fuels your life. 

Tom said:  Christianity is about having saving faith in the Gospel teachings of Jesus and the apostles.  The ultimate goal of the Christian is Eternal Life.  This is what must fuel the life of every Christian.

Sirje said:  Worship time is a time you set aside to concentrate on spiritual aspects of your life, unencumbered with thoughts and worries of your everyday life.   

Tom said:  Ha!  So you think a Christian is free to make up his own rules about “worship time?”  The facts show otherwise.  The Creator of the world, aka the Hebrew God, or God the Father, determined that every 7th day would be the day for worship. 

Those that enter the Jewish/ Christian paradigm have no right or basis to change the special worship day that God almighty, as well as his Son have clearly and repeatedly defended and promoted. 

Sorry.  No one gets to make such decisions as you think.  We have no right or authority.  For the Christian, the Sabbath is defined and explained by Jesus; it has nothing to do with what we think. 

Sirje said: As such, the Sabbath is certainly meaningful; but, to give it any more significance than that, makes the Sabbath vital to salvation - especially as the SDA church has placed the Sabbath above all the rest of the commandments, if only by emphasis; and has made it the focal point of its faith and eschatology. 

Tom said:  The Sabbath has great meaning for the Jews and Jesus, even if the Gentiles have become confused about most everything.  It must have been very meaningful for Jesus to promote it as he did, and then declare himself to be its Lord. 

The meaning of the Sabbath is fundamental to the Gospel Story and so it shall always be.

The Gospel Sabbath is just as vital as any other teaching of Jesus.  Misunderstand and fight against the Gospel, and one is lost.  The same is true for those that fight against the NC Sabbath.  Why?  Because they are fighting against the Gospel itself and repudiating the clear teachings of Jesus.

The SDA’ s have the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath.  We agree on this point.

Sirje said:  To say that only Sabbath keepers (in whatever form) are going to "be saved" is basing salvation on Sabbath keeping which is clearly a matter of WORKS- something the NT rejects outright.

Tom said:  Only “Gospel keepers” will be saved.  NOT SABBATH keepers.  The SDA’s are the latter.

Sirje said:  If, on the other hand, "the time spent in worship" is the significance of the Sabbath, then any day will do; and I think, Paul makes that very clear. 

Tom said:  While Jesus taught that there was a corporate worship component to the Sabbath, he also made it clear that he wants to see GOOD WORKS, on the Sabbath.  Lots of them.  He wants to see activity on the NC Sabbath, even work!

Sirje said:  Christianity is a Pauline institution. 

Tom said:  Ha!  Is this a joke?   You can’t be serious?

First off, Jesus is the acknowledged head of the “Christian” church.  This is why the first four books are all about him and his life, while there is not one book in the Bible that is dedicated to the life of Paul.

So your statement is absurd as well as historically impossible and theologically heretical.

In fact, while the infant church was growing, Paul went on the attack, savagely persecuting the early Christians.  He was a great fool, an enemy of God; unfit to be called an apostle.

1Cor. 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

But yet you say this is the fellow that started the church?  This is absurd and impossible.  Paul refutes your view. And so too does the record, which shows that Paul did not even become a Christian until the second generation of the Christian Faith.

Jesus Christ started the Church.  Anyone who thinks otherwise in not a Christian, but something else.

Moreover, the RC teaches that the church, which they admit was started by Jesus, is built on the theology of Peter, not Paul.  It was the reformation that was built on Paul. 

This idea that Paul trumps Jesus on any point of faith is absurd and ludicrous.  No one has more authority, wisdom, or Spirit than Jesus.  He is the head of the church and king of kings.  Not Paul.  He was a “prisoner” and apostle of Christ and a bondservant to God.

2Tim. 1:8  Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

Philem. 1   Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus,

Titus 1:1   Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Titus 1:3 but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,

Sirje said:  Very few follow Jesus' words exclusively. 

Tom said:  This is a very true and sad fact.  But beside the point. 

Those that really follow Jesus, and have the Spirit of God, will carefully study the Word and repent of their errors when pointed out.  They will happily follow Jesus Gospel teachings, including his unique, “easy,” and counter-intuitive, 7th day Sabbath.

Out of the wretched errors, excesses, and arrogance of the Laodicean church, the Gospel will arise.  The true of heart will repent for their many false doctrines, embracing both the genuine Gospel, and the correct Gospel Sabbath, as taught by Jesus in the Gospels.  Then the end will come.

Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Sirje said:  It was Paul who placed Christ into a "church" and any services that church performed.  Before that, Christianity was a Jewish sect.

Tom said: First, there is no doubt that the Christian Faith started out as a sect of Judaism.  This is because it was 100% Jewish, and that is what it still is today.  Nor will this fact ever change. 

No matter how large or small the size of Christianity, it is still 100% Jewish.  The Christian Faith is not a Gentile paradigm.  Rather, it is New Covenant Judaism.

Second, it is Jesus who invented, formed, and established the Church --many years before Paul joined the Faith. 

Thus Peter and the others followed Jesus instruction and organized the church.  Paul had zero to do with this process or its doctrines.  He was an enemy of the church for many years.

Jesus Started the Church

The word Church is used 77 times in the NT; zero in the OT.  It was a new word with a new meaning, just like the word Gospel that was also coined by Jesus. 

The first recorded use of the word church is from Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew.  He is the author of this term and this concept.  Thus the book of Acts shows the early church developing and growing, even as it also shows Paul persecuting the church at the same time.

Matt. 16:18 “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Matt. 18:17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Acts 5:11 And great fear came over the whole church, and over all who heard of these things.

Acts 8:1  Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death.  And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 8:3 But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house, and dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.

Acts 9:31  So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.

There is no point in trying to minimize Jesus authority in the church or his teachings.  Especially if the object is to avoid his “easy” Sabbath that is the subject of this discussion. 

Why fight Jesus over his Gospel Sabbath?  This is hardly what Christians are supposed to be doing is it?  Who are we to instruct Christ and re-write the Bible? 

Bob 2;  Thank you for the link about Heb 4: 9.  But it will not help you.  It supports my view, not yours.  It also shows you that you are not being honest or respectful with the evidence and that you are willing to twist the facts to support your dubious views.  Sad.

The Greek Word in Heb 4:9 shows that:

1.  This is the only text in the entire Bible that uses this specific word for Sabbath.  So we have a rare and special word that must be treated as such.

2.  It also shows that the primary use of this word is “ a keeping Sabbath.”  In other words, a weekly, 7th day Sabbath.

The second use of this word, which is the one you prefer, is not supported by any modern scholarship or Greek documents.   The second use is not accurate and is more like slang, or popular interpretation.   It does not reflect what the Greek word in question means, which is why it is not listed as the primary interpretation.

So the issue in not about “discernment” or “choice,” but honestly following the evidence.   This word was used for a reason by the author.  It was not a mistake or a slip of the pen.  The Greek word, combined with the context, in a book written to Jews, can only have one meaning.  And it is not what you claim.

Few SDA’s know how to honestly study the Bible, which explains why they have so many false and outrageous doctrines.  The SDA Community has been taught how to proof text, and how to make the Bible say what they want it to say.  Thus they think wine in the Bible is grape juice and that tithing is a NC doctrine, and on and on with one delusion after another, including the IJ and even the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees.  Wretched.

Bob 2, and Sirje; you cannot ignore the clear and documented primary use of the word in question, that you do not like, so that you can embrace a secondary and clearly inferior interpretation that you do like.  That is not honest, fair, or professional, much less Christian.   

This is the great problem of the Laodiceans; they are “blind” to the Word.  They refuse to read the word honestly, and thus they have failed to understand and embrace the Gospel.  This is why they are “naked” and unsaved.  They do not respect the Word, nor the Gospel, even as the mock the Gospel Sabbath and marginalize the teachings of Jesus.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

The above prophecy is being fulfilled in the SDA Community for all to see.  The SDA’s, have developed many false doctrines and MYTHS, and supported them with legions of pastors and teachers.  But when a real scholar speaks up, like Dr. Ford, and the truth is pushed forward, those blind to the Gospel “turn away” and embrace nonsense and call it truth. 

Those who play fast and lose with the Word and church history will never be able to understand the Gospel.   Such blasphemous self-delusion will prevent many from understanding the Word and finding the Gospel.    Pity.

Be Honest With the Evidence:

The first interpretation has been shown by all scholars to mean a real Sabbath day.  This is what the Greek word expressly means.   There is no other valid secondary meaning, much less the one that you hope for. 

So you lose.  Your no Sabbath view has zero support from Hebrews.  You have utterly failed to make your case, much less put a dent in the NC Sabbath that we are discussing.

Let all show respect and honesty when dealing with the Word.  It is very wrong, even sinful, to try and force the text to say what we want.  This is an abominable and fatal practice that the SDA’s have developed into an art form over the years. 

Such a cultic and wretched hermeneutic has confused and ruined them.  Unless the repent, and learn how to read the Bible honestly, they are justly doomed.

I repeat:  The original text in Heb 4: 9 is ONLY speaking about a weekly, 7th day Sabbath for the Church.   Period.

Study More/Post Less

After you found out that this is the only use of this word in the entire Bible, you should have researched further. 

Why did you stop? 

Did you really think your dishonest, illogical, and self-serving selection of the secondary meaning ended this discussion with victory for your view?  Ha!  It means the opposite.  It shows you really don’t want to keep researching, because your view is self-destructing.   But yet you pretend you are correct.  Just like every blind cult. 

While millions have left the SDA church, they have been unable to repair their faulty reasoning and confused hermeneutic that they received from the Adventists.  Many are so damaged from their past association with the SDA’s, that they cannot think or reason coherently about religion or the Bible.  It is a sad phenomenon.

Research Necessary

A simple Google search of Sabbatismos would have led you to some additional sources that discuss the latest research on Heb 4: 9.  Of course this information further disproves your silly position, which no doubt explains why you have no interest to study further.

Here is what you would have found:

In regard to taking “Sabbatismos” literally, Professor Andrew T. Lincoln, on page 213 in his symposium From Sabbath To The Lord's Day states, “The use of sabbatismos elsewhere in extant Greek literature gives an indication of its more exact shade of meaning. It is used in Plutarch, De Superstitione 3 (Moralia166A) of Sabbath observance. There are also four occurrences in post canonical literature that are independent of Hebrews 4:9. They are Justin, Dialogue with Trypho 23:3; Epiphanius, Adversus Haereses 30:2:2; Martyrium Petri et Pauli 1; Apostolic Constitutions 2:36:2.

In each of these places the term denotes the observance or celebration of the Sabbath.

This usage corresponds to the Septuagint usage of the cognate verb sabbatizo (cf. Exodus 16:30; Leviticus. 23:32; 26:34; 2 Chronicles. 36:21).

Thus the writer to the Hebrews is saying that since the time of Joshua an observance of the Sabbath rest has been outstanding.”

The literal translation then of Hebrews 4:9 is, “Therefore a Sabbath observance has been left behind for the people of God.”

The internal evidence of the preceding verses would also indicate that the Sabbath observance mentioned in this verse has to be the Seventh day Sabbath and not Sunday which took on the name the Lord's Day about 461AD.

In verse 8, the author of Hebrews states, “For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not afterward have spoken of another day.”

On first glance in our English translations, the word “another” might give the appearance of a different day. However, in the Greek, there are two words for “another”. “Heteros” means “another of a different kind”, while “allos” means “another of the same kind”. The word used in Hebrews 4:8 is “allos”, indicating a Sabbath day of the same kind as referred to in Hebrews 4:5-8, that is, the seventh-day Sabbath.

In verse 7, the author of Hebrews uses the term “certain day”. The Greek word for “certain” is “tis”. It is undoubtedly referencing a specific day and not the general thought of an eternal rest. The force of Hebrews 3:11-4:11 then must be saying that because Christians look toward the eternal rest of heaven, the type or shadow of the earthly Sabbath rest still remains or is “left behind”, literally for Christians to observe.

This is very significant in light of the greater context of the book of Hebrews which deals with the entire Aaronic priesthood and its methods of worship as found in the Old Covenant being supplanted by the Melchizedek priesthood of Jesus Christ.

As the author states in Hebrews 12:27, “And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things which have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain.”

http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/ten … ament.html

Here is some more:

Seventh, the rest that remains-sabbatismos (4:9)-is the rest that was left unfulfilled in the Old Testament-katapausis.[136]

But the word sabbatismos makes its own contribution to the discussion in that it clearly defines the eschatological katapausis ("rest") as God's Sabbath-like rest.

That is to say, the Sabbath rest is used to illustrate the nature of the eschatological rest.[137] This is important in that it suggests that for the author of Hebrews the theology of the Sabbath was so meaningful that he used it to interpret God's eschatological rest.[138]

The context does not support the suggestion that the Sabbath commandment had been fulfilled in the rest of salvation that Christ brought, making it unnecessary for Christians to obey it.[139]

The offer of the Sabbath-like rest in the Old Testament did not require the people to set aside the literal observance of the Sabbath commandment. The eschatological rest is like the Sabbath but does not replace it; they are not incompatible. Besides, entering God's rest in Heb 4 does not mean that the Sabbath is superseded.

In order to enter God's rest the text only requires perseverance and faithfulness, ceasing from our works, not the rejection of the Sabbath commandment.

Finally, it is important to mention that Heb 4 has absolutely nothing to say about instituting a new day of rest, e.g. Sunday.

http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.or … ic2002.htm

See also:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7818023/The-S … Bacchiochi

Heb 4: 9 in no way helps those that want to remove the Sabbath.  In fact, it helps those that promote the Sabbath.  It reinforces the Gospel Sabbath, and so too all the other references in the NT.

Besides, there is no way to ignore Jesus Sabbath teachings, which are found in all four Gospels.  This is where the NC Sabbath is explained, defended, and modeled for the church.  Hebrews is not a book about the Gospel Sabbath, even though it does reference it.

In conclusion, be happy that the Bible and the Gospel are now being better understood, and so too the light and easy Gospel Sabbath.   

Let all rejoice that there is a clear path emerging for the Advent Movement.  It starts with repentance for the many errors they have embraced, like tithe and the IJ, as well as the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.

It is time for honest Bible study.  It is time for all to search for truth and understand the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath, as if their Eternal Lives depended on it. 

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for the “Light and Easy,” Gospel Sabbath

Last edited by tom_norris (02-18-10 2:13 am)

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#39 02-18-10 9:02 am

george
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Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 270

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Tom,
You need to step back from your SDA roots a little and try to look at the Gospel afresh.  First we need to define the word, GOSPEL.  Literally, as I'm sure you know, it means GOOD NEWS.  Jesus continually talked about "the good news of the coming kingdom of God".  That was the original meaning of the Gospel and its message.  The word has been hijacked by religiosity and now it means anything from the first four books of the NT,  to include the entire Bible, and within the SDA theology  the Gospel includes all the red books as well.

When Jesus said, "on this rock I will build my church" he didn't mean Peter (as the rock), nor did he mean a church with a pointy roof and a belfry.  He meant (and I know you know this) Peter's declaration "you are the Christ" is the rock on which Jesus' community of believers (congregation - assembly) is based upon.  This declaration is the basis of the community of believers that Jesus established by his sojourn on earth.  The fact that he was a Jew and followed the Jewish religious traditions from birth has nothing to do with his message except as he tried to reform that system.  Even then, he didn't try to reform into another "church" or even a sect of Judaism (even though that is what it was in the beginning).

Jesus' message and his interactions were with individuals, not with Hebrew theology directly.  He healed the sick; he interacted with the untouchables of Jewish culture; he fed individuals.  His message was to INDIVIDUALS just as John the Baptist preached sought individual repentance and renewal.  John even said, "I baptize with water, but Jesus will baptize with the Spirit: (I'm paraphrasing). 

Jesus spoke about rebirth - of INDIVIDUALS.  His "church" spans centuries, and is spread out over continents.  Even Paul admitted that "God does not dwell in buildings made with hands".  Jesus did not establish a new church/denomination/sect - even a new theology.  His message was to each individual who had/has suffered under religious tyranny - under a yoke of do's and don'ts - under superstitions.  Why would he then, require more ceremony - more outward show of religiosity? 

Jesus said he didn't come to "nullify the law".  He didn't come to do away with any religious/cultural institutions; but he did come to drive the moral messages of those institutions into the hearts of individuals.  He took the Jewish laws and made them internal.  He made murder a matter of attitude; he made forgiveness (from the heart)  to substitute for justice; he placed the sick and the suffering in front of the line receiving salvation, as opposed to the Jews who thought those things were judgments from God.

The entire "moral law" (which the Bible never differentiates from any of the other laws in the OT) is supported by the two great commandments of love.  Whatever behavior honors God; and whatever honors you fellow man stands as the law upon which  a God-centered life  is based.  This is actually genius - if a religion requires harm to others in order to worship their God, that law is not from God; and if our devotion to man supersedes  honoring God then that is also not from God.  In order to live according to God's moral law, we must balance devotion to God with respect (love) for our fellowman.  This outlaws genocide, torture, slavery in the name of God; and it also destroys all man-made heroes that require worship of themselves, supplanting the worship of God.  Those are the parameters within which God wants us to live.

According to Jesus (sermon on the mount) a godly life does not include a bunch of ritual that is done for show or for appeasement; but a heart (the inner conversation we have with ourselves) dedicated to God and the well being of our fellow man.  this does not make the Christian a slave at everyone's bidding - a door mat,  since that isn't for anyone's benefit.  It does make for person who lives, discerning the most loving way, under the circumstances, to treat others and thereby, loving God - "whatsoever you do the the least of these, my children, you do unto me".

This also make for a life that is not aware of its own goodness (good deeds) but focuses on the needs of others.  This why Jesus is going to be able to say that "you visited me in prison  and fed me when I was hungry etc"  How we treat others is how we love God. 

None of this has anything to do with keeping or not keeping of a day; or a law; or a standard of behavior.  These things that man has added to his religious life so as to feel in control of it.  These heated arguments about theology is about men feeling insecure about their standing with God; and so if another person sees things differently, it threatens their concepts and puts them in danger of maybe being wrong about something - insecurity.  Individuality is seen as a bad thing because it threatens the lock-step operations of man-made institutions.

All this makes the Gospel universal, able to be followed in every corner of the earth equally.  It doesn't rely on sunset hours (which change according to latitude and longitude); not does it require seeing meteors showers above your head (falling f the "stars" over Maine); nor does it require charts of time lines and posters of beasts with Daniel's statue of sitting in the middle of it all.  Anybody can endeavor to live the life of respect and love toward others and toward God.  Geography plays no part.

Last edited by george (02-18-10 9:25 am)

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#40 02-18-10 1:26 pm

bob_2
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Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,788

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Tom, you are stuck on a 24 hour period. It was given to a specific people, but it was fulfilled by Christ, who is our rest. I nor the Gospel, as I read it, cares not if you worship God on Saturday or Sunday, but the Gospel I see from my study urges you to realize that, TODAY, you can have the ultimate goal of the Gospel, REST IN JESUS CHRIST, plain and simple. You have been unable to prove to any of us that the Sabbath/Saturday or Sunday was to be held in the regard you claim. The Jews failed in their unbelief. In Romans 11, the Vine is Jesus, the Church, not Jewry, the broken branches at it's base can be Jews or Gentiles that once were connected to Jesus. There will always be a remnant of Jews that will be connected to Jesus, the Messiah, that the main body of Jews, rejected. Also, Heb 8:13 is pretty clear on the OC being obsolete, that is the Jews.

I am not surprised at your position, because there is no hope of the SDAs listening to you at all if you accept NCT and Jesus as fulfilling the Sabbath. If the SDAs would accept this, still worshipping on Sabbath, it would solve a lot of the NT conundrums the SDAs push aside rather than attempting to solve. There was discontinuity at the cross, Jesus fulfilling the OC, which included the Sabbath. Where the Ten Commandments are referred to the Covenant, both OT and NT, you cling to what you want, a 24 hour day of rest, rather than the true REST, Jesus. Assemble, we are commanded to not forsake that, but don't make the day you do it on your god. Notice the the OT declaration of the Ten Commandments as the OC:

Exodus 34:28  Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

Now the NT's statement that the Ten Commandments were the OC:

2 Cor 3:7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

How much clearer does it get, Tom.

Last edited by bob_2 (02-18-10 2:19 pm)

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#41 02-18-10 2:16 pm

bob_2
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Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,788

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

As I was spending some time in Hebrews today, this text came up, Tom. Maybe you can comment on it, the SHORT version:

Heb 10:9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.

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#42 02-18-10 10:33 pm

Dexter
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Registered: 02-10-10
Posts: 43

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Bob_2,

Your insistence that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath (so that believes are no longer obliged to recognize and uphold it) by giving us “rest” lacks basic biblical support.  You speak as though spiritual rest is somehow a NT/NC phenomenon.  Am I to understand that you don’t think the folks in the OC had this rest?  Did “TODAY” for someone under the OC not afford them rest also?  Such an idea is not only self serving and reckless, but also egregious against what the bible says.  I suggest you take some  time and do a word search on "rest" in the OT and take time to study.

Moreover, your infatuation with insisting that the Sabbath only represents some spiritual rest in Christ has also corrupted your view of the Gospel.  The ultimate “goal of the Gospel” is not “REST IN JESUS CHRIST” as nice sounding as that is.  The “ultimate goal of the Gospel” as Paul describes it is the message of the sinner’s Justification by faith via forgiveness of sins.  This is the matter of “first importance” (I Cor. 15:1-4) as it relates to the Gospel.  The blessing of spiritual rest is truly a blessing and benefit of this “ultimate goal”, but not to be confused with that goal itself.

What you fail to realize is that the Sabbath is both a shadow or type AND a memorial.  While the antitype of this shadow may well include the first fruit of the spiritual “rest” we enjoy while we sojourn in this life, it is only truly fulfilled or met in our rest in Heaven.  This is the “ultimate” goal of the shadow in the Sabbath.

Is the spiritual rest we now enjoy complete, perfect or eternal?  Hardly!  Daily we are beset on every side with trials and tests of faith as a result of our weakened sinful nature, even as we are admonished to a constant “work out your salvation”.  How then can you purport that this rest could be the meaning and purpose of the rest for which Christ has paid for with his sacrifice?  Do you see or understand the implication of this flawed interpretation?  All of Christ's work is complete, perfect and eternal.  It cannot be subjective such as any spiritual rest which you or I can now experience since such is dependent on the believer's appropriation of it in his or her personal experience.  Only in our heavenly home can the true fulfillment of the rest that the Sabbath shadows can be realized.

Furthermore, when Paul (in speaking about the religious festival, New Moon celebrations or a Sabbath) say that these “are a shadow of things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ,” this does not mean that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath in his person.  Rather, he fulfills it by virtue of his work.  So that as a result of His sacrifice for us “in bringing many sons to glory” he has opened the doors to Heaven for fallen sons of Adam.  But until the end of all things when we are in heaven at last, the Sabbath continues as a shadow of that eternal rest.

However, the Sabbath also remains as a memorial and commemoration of God’s work as Creator and Savior.  This also is the beckoning call of the Sabbath; it calls all sinners to reverence God as Creator and Savior.  For in as much as the “work” involved in our salvation was laid out at the creation of the world so that Jesus is the “lamb slain from the creation of the world” (Rev. 13:8), so also was that included in the “work” from which God rested on the seventh day.

The fact that all the OC restrictions that were rudiment in nature (an application given to suit its purpose until the promised Seed Gal 3:19-23) has now been removed from the Sabbath, does not mean the institution itself is gone.  I think you need to give more consideration to the points Tom is raising.


Let every lamp be burning bright, the darkest hour is nearing...

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#43 02-19-10 1:01 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,788

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Dexter, I recommend you study the covenants and realize that the Old Covenant is obsolete (Heb 8:13) by the installation of a New Covenant. The Old Covenant includes the Ten Commandments as Ex 34: 28 points out.  I would recommend Heb 4 also. I will not judge you by which day you keep,as the Bible instructs,  some feel some holier than others,(Rom 14:5) and Jesus and God work every day (John 5:17). So the Rest has to be something other than the day. But the assembling of ourselves to worship God can be done as quickly as we can get the brethren assembled and for individuals, right now, Today. Yes, Heaven is that ultimate rest, but if you believe the Sabbath will be kept in heaven then you have to be ready for the New Moon festivals in heaven also, (Isaiah 66:23) that were done away with at the cross, per SDAs ceremonial, civil and moral definitions, man made dichotomies.

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#44 02-19-10 10:14 am

Dexter
Member
Registered: 02-10-10
Posts: 43

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Bob_2,

You know, you can always tell the strength of someone’s argument by their ability to address the points of their opponent.  The fact that you create the following diversions: suggesting the 10 commandments are obsolete; “some feel holier than others [by “keeping” the Sabbath]”; “so the rest has to be something other than the day”; “but if you believe the Sabbath will be kept in heaven…” (none of which are points I made), and argue against them as some phantom opponent is immature.

What I “recommend” is that you look over my post again and come up with something better to address the points I’ve made.


Let every lamp be burning bright, the darkest hour is nearing...

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#45 02-19-10 10:38 am

Dexter
Member
Registered: 02-10-10
Posts: 43

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

In the mean while, if you think that the OC given to the children of Israel was somehow and end in itself and not rather intended to typify and teach a grander lesson so that you assume Paul’s teaching in Col 2:6-14 to be referring only to the 10 commandments and the rest of the Mosaic Law, then I would suggest that not only are you misunderstanding the purpose of the OC, but that “veil” (2 Cor. 3: 15) yet remains over your understanding of it.


Let every lamp be burning bright, the darkest hour is nearing...

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#46 02-19-10 9:29 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,788

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Dexter, what frustrates me with Sabbatarians, is the lack of contextual reading. Here try it:

2 Cor 3:7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

It speaks of "how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!", something different than the original. It speaks here of the two different covenants ;"Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone[the Ten Commandments or First Covenant], came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit [The Second Covenant] be even more glorious?

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#47 02-20-10 7:54 am

george
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 270

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Dexter,
Just one comment - you say that the ultimate goal of the shadow in the Sabbath is our "rest" in heaven.  Where do you get that from? 

You say that we are told to "work out our salvation"; and that this indicates we have no rest here, but have to wait for heaven to rest, therefore, Heb. 4 can't refer to a "rest in Christ" and we still have to work by keeping the Sabbath.  Where does this come from?

Jesus was very clear, while the kingdom of God is a future event here on earth, it is impinging on the present within every Christian.  THE TIME IS FULFILLED, AND THE REIGN OF GOD HAS DRAWN NIGH; REPENT,AND BELIEVE IN THE GOOD NEWS. (Mark 1:15); also,THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS WERE UNTIL JOHN:SINCE THAT TIME THE REIGN OF GOD IS PROCLAIMED. (Luke 16:16

The Jews had hoped to bring in the "reign of God" on this earth by scrupulous observance of the law; and forcibly driving out the Romans.  Jesus came along and preached about a kingdom that was already active - among them.  He told parables of the "seed growing secretly (Mk.4:26-29) etc.  (the lost sheep, the lost coin).   The outcasts of the Jewish system (publicans and sinners) were drawn to Jesus, while the self-righteous, law-keepers connived to get rid of Him.  Jesus was, even then, establishing God's kingdom.  The power of that kingdom was operating even then.

The irony implicit in Heb 4 is that by "working" hard to keep all the commandments in order to do "God's will" (and thereby earn salvation), we are rejecting the cross and its power.  Christ of the cross gives us rest from frantically working our way to heaven.  If we want to celebrate that in worshiping together on Sabbath, no problem, but that celebration is not relegated to a specific day, time, or place.  The Sabbath is not what gives us rest, Christ's dying on the cross does.

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#48 02-20-10 10:23 am

george
Member
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 270

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Dexter,
One more point - do you think that any SDA is actually "keeping" the Sabbath as it was kept in the OT?  If not, who makes the rules for Sabbath keeping?  I know, Tom is hung up on the NC Sabbath.  That aside, what constitutes "keeping" the Sabbath?

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#49 02-20-10 11:50 am

Dexter
Member
Registered: 02-10-10
Posts: 43

Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Bob_2,

What frustrates me with anti-Sabbatarians is the lack of understanding of Scripture.  Period.  So you’ve posted a text from 2 Cor. 3 that shows the excellence of the NC over the old somehow supposing that this text helps you?  Sadly, not only does it not help in your misguided quest, but by its mere submission it also proves you truly do not yet have a handle on that of which you claim to understand – the Covenants.

While this thread is not to deal specifically with the covenants, I would say this to address your post.

It seems you understand the text to be saying that because the “ministry” of the 10 commandments is surpassed in glory by the “ministry” of the Spirit that this means the 10 commandments themselves no longer exist because they are replaced by the Spirit?  But this assertion is fundamentally flawed even as it underscores a need for understanding the intent of the text itself. 

The same Apostle who elsewhere teaches that the 10 commandment law: makes every mouth accountable to God (Rom. 3:19); makes men aware of their sin (v 20); we uphold by faith (v 31); is holy, righteous, and good (7:12) – the lists goes on -, cannot not now teach that said law is obsolete and no purposeful and even binding on believers in Christ.

What the Apostle IS teaching is that “ministry” that the law provided under the OC is surpassed in excellence and brilliance by the “ministry” that the Spirit provides to believers under the NC.  How is it you’ve missed this?

Moreover, the Apostle is also proving here that the giving of the 10 commandment law was not the end in and of itself (except as it was to be used at a guide and tutor for the Children of Israel) but was to “minister” a lesson and experience of far greater importance and significance.  The fact that the Hebrews missed this object lesson is, ironically, part of the main reasons for the text you have supplied and most of the Apostle’s teaching about the true purpose of the giving of the OC elsewhere in his epistles.

Now before you go off on another tangent and make up other phantom opponents to debate, let me diffuse some things now.  The fact that I even need to address this is itself a sad commentary on the nature of this debate.  Be that as it may, here is what I am NOT saying:  I am NOT saying that believers keep the 10 commandment law to be saved, or that salvation is a matter of “keeping” the 10 commandments.  The mere act of “keeping” as it relates to the 10 commandments out not be confused as to suggest that such is of any merit or value relative to one’s salvation.  So please, stick to the point of this dialog and not apply such immature diversions as to argue against a phantom opponent.

Speaking of phantom opponents.  Sirje, your post, while having a religious “fluff” is no more developed that that of Bob_2.  You too try to make assertions I have never made or intended and argue against them as though in doing so you’re making any headway.  How is it you both employ such strategy?  This method in debating is very immature and only makes any serious study of a subject that much more difficult.  Here is a suggestion, address the content of what your opponent submits and prove it wrong if you can.  Don’t show yourself to be incompetent with such childish smoke screen arguments.

But let me address some of your comments.

You said: Just one comment - you say that the ultimate goal of the shadow in the Sabbath is our "rest" in heaven.  Where do you get that from?

I say: This is the true meaning in the correct interpretation and understanding of Heb. 4.  I don’t think I need to go over the details, Tom has already done a pretty good job at that.

You said: You say that we are told to "work out our salvation"

I say:  Sorry, those words are not mine but Paul’s.  I’m sure you must be aware of this?

You said: and that this indicates we have no rest here, but have to wait for heaven to rest, therefore, Heb. 4 can't refer to a "rest in Christ" and we still have to work by keeping the Sabbath.  Where does this come from?

I say: Here enters your phantom opponent, yes?  Where did I ever say we have no rest here?  Look over my post again and redress your comments.  While I did say, the rest we experience here is subjective and not complete, prefect or eternal, I never once said we have no rest here.  Nor did I ever say that Heb. 4 can’t refer to “rest in Christ” as I do believe that the rest we do experience here and now in Christ is a foretaste of that ultimate rest in Heaven and as such is included in that rest of which the Sabbath shadows.  It is as much the same as us living as citizens of God’s Kingdom NOW being a subjective experience versus us doing so when that kingdom actually comes.  One is subjective, imperfect and relative while the other is complete, perfect, and eternal.

Moreover, I never said we have to “work by keeping the Sabbath” (whatever this is supposed to mean in your mind) so that we cannot experience spiritual rest in Christ.  Let’s be fair and honest.

You said: Jesus was very clear, while the kingdom of God is a future event here on earth, it is impinging on the present within every Christian.  THE TIME IS FULFILLED, AND THE REIGN OF GOD HAS DRAWN NIGH; REPENT,AND BELIEVE IN THE GOOD NEWS. (Mark 1:15); also,THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS WERE UNTIL JOHN:SINCE THAT TIME THE REIGN OF GOD IS PROCLAIMED. (Luke 16:16

I say: There is not argument here about the truth of this.  My only dispute is that its submission adds nothing to your argument.  In fact it serves to help my point.  By that I mean a shadow remains a shadow until the reality of its intended purpose has come.  Jesus was indeed the Lamb slain from the creation of the world, but that didn’t mean the sacrifices that typified his sacrifice was not important and necessary until the goal of that shadow was met in the actual sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.  In like manner, while the Kingdom of God has indeed come (in a spiritual sense for us) it hasn’t yet come in reality and form.  Therefore the rest we are to experience there, and of which the Sabbath shadows, has not come yet (in its truest and complete sense) either.

You said: The irony implicit in Heb 4 is that by "working" hard to keep all the commandments in order to do "God's will" (and thereby earn salvation), we are rejecting the cross and its power.  Christ of the cross gives us rest from frantically working our way to heaven.  If we want to celebrate that in worshiping together on Sabbath, no problem, but that celebration is not relegated to a specific day, time, or place.  The Sabbath is not what gives us rest, Christ's dying on the cross does.

I say: Here enters your phantom again.  But Heb. 4 is neither about addressing the concept of “working” hard to keep all the commandments in order to do “God’s will” or about rejecting the cross and its power.  It is about a promise of entering God’s rest remains for all those who would continue in faith, even a warning against falling after the same example of disbelief such as was with the Jews who didn’t make it into the promise land (God’s rest for the children of Israel at that time which typifies the rest for believers in Heaven).

Once more, your insistence in using such an immature approach of trying to assert that I meant to say that the Sabbath is what “gives us rest”, so that you think by informing me “Christ’s dying on the cross does”, diminishes any real impact you may have intended to have in your post.  Until both you and Bob_2 understand this fundamental flaw in your approach in this debate, you can never hope to be taken seriously in what you have to say.  And I am interested in what you have to say, just so you know.


Let every lamp be burning bright, the darkest hour is nearing...

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#50 02-20-10 11:52 am

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 782
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Re: The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews

Sirje said:  Tom, You need to step back from your SDA roots a little and try to look at the Gospel afresh. 

Tom said:  Sirje, you need to step back from any position that cannot be supported by the evidence.  You are not being responsive to the issues on the table.  Either you can address and rebut the evidence or you cannot.  It is clear that the critics of the NC Sabbath are shooting blanks. 

As for the Gospel, it has been defined many times in these discussions.  It is an ancient, historic, and famous doctrine that is fundamental for the church.   Thus it is not a “fresh” look that is needed, but an honest, serious, and responsible look that few are prepared to take.   

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -SDA-s.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -SDA-s.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ants-1.htm

Sirge said:  First we need to define the word, GOSPEL.  Literally, as I'm sure you know, it means GOOD NEWS. 

Tom said:  No.  We need to stay on point and deal with the issues under discussion.  Stop avoiding them and either put some serious evidence on the table that supports the No Sabbath view or admit your error and repent.

Sirje said:  The fact that Jesus was a Jew and followed the Jewish religious traditions from birth has nothing to do with his message except as he tried to reform that system. 

Tom said:  Ha!  The fact that Jesus was a Jew has EVERYTHING to do with his Gospel Message.  Why?  Because the context and the contents of the Gospel is 100% JEWISH.  This is also why the Christian faith is really reformed Judaism.  Thus Jesus reforms were for the church.  The church is really NC Judaism.

There can be no Gentile doctrines in the church, which is why Sunday is such an absurd and obvious fraud.  Nor can the Sabbath be removed from the Gospel Story or from the obligation of the church.

Sirje said:  Jesus' message and his interactions were with individuals, not with Hebrew theology directly. 

Tom said:  Your point is not true.  Jesus was the greatest theologian the world has ever seen.  He was a child prodigy that stumped the religious experts at a young age.  The NT shows Jesus often dealing with the scriptures and pushing his own unique and controversial interpretations of Judaism to the forefront.

Jesus and the NT also define the church as being people, not buildings.  Those that accepted the Gospel were to become the new Temple, one that is comprised of people, not stone.

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

Eph. 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

Eph. 2:21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,

Eph. 2:22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

1Cor. 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

Sirje said; He didn't come to do away with any religious/cultural institutions; but he did come to drive the moral messages of those institutions into the hearts of individuals. 

Tom said:  WRONG!  How can you be so confused?  Jesus came to do away with OC Judaism, including the entire Levitical Priesthood and the Temple system, even as he introduced NC Judaism, which is the Christian Faith. 

So here is yet another point where you are dead wrong about the Gospel Story.  You need to stop being so reckless with your many false assumptions and pay closer attention to the facts.

Why do you twist and change the Gospel Story?  So that you can declare there is no Sabbath for the Church?  Those that play such games are not standing inside the church, but outside the Kingdom of God.  They are only fooling themselves, not Heaven.

Sirje said: He took the Jewish laws and made them internal. 

Tom said:  Jesus did much more than make the law apply to peoples lives in a deeper manner.  He took a number of Jewish laws and doctrines, like the Sabbath, Passover, and ritual cleansing, and revised then for the Church, even as he abolished the Levitical system and made all of his followers Priests.   

Did Jesus teach that the Sabbath was to become a mind game?  Or that is should be internalized away?  Or that there would be no cleansing, gateway ritual for the church, and no Passover type service for God’s Community?  Hardly.

You view of the Gospel Story is very confused and incorrect.  This is why you fail to comprehend the Gospel Sabbath.  You have too many false positions and assumptions in your head, which keeps you from embracing true doctrine.

Sirje said:  According to Jesus (sermon on the mount) a godly life does not include a bunch of ritual that is done for show or for appeasement; but a heart (the inner conversation we have with ourselves) dedicated to God and the well being of our fellow man. 

Tom said:  Why do you claim to embrace the Sermon on the Mount, but reject the more numerous teachings of Jesus about the Reformed Sabbath?  One cannot choose the teachings they like from Jesus, and reject what they don’t.  You take it all or none of it.

Moreover, the NT has a number of clearly established ceremonies and rituals.  Ignore them at your own peril.  Those who refuse baptism, or refuse the Passover Cup of wine, and the bread that Jesus commanded all to eat, are shut out of the kingdom of God.  No one should think otherwise.

I repeat; any that refuse to properly partake of the NC emblems and ceremonies that Jesus instituted for the church, REGARDLESS of their “Godly life,” have lost Eternal Life.  Their names are not written in the book of life.  These public ceremonies are not negotiable, and neither is the Gospel Sabbath.

At some point, when the Gospel Sabbath is better known, the NC Sabbath will also become a testing doctrine that shows if one is following the genuine Christ and his Gospel or not.  But that time in not here as yet. 

But it is getting closer.  Even now, those that fight the NC Sabbath are pushing the Gospel further away, which will result in their being banished from the Kingdom of God.  Sad.  And very stupid.

Furthermore, no one is saved by “a goodly life.”  This is not at all what the Gospel teaches.  So again, you prove that you do not understand the Gospel.

Sirje said: These heated arguments about theology is about men feeling insecure about their standing with God; and so if another person sees things differently, it threatens their concepts and puts them in danger of maybe being wrong about something - insecurity. 

Tom said:  The preaching, debating, and discussing the Gospel is what Jesus did on earth.  Thus he has placed his seal of approval on such behavior, and so too the apostles.  More people should follow this holy example, not less.

Sirje said:  Individuality is seen as a bad thing because it threatens the lock-step operations of man-made institutions.

Tom said:  The true Gospel does not deny anyone his or her freedom or individuality.  This is why Jesus condemned the religious leaders in public and let the people know that they should not follow these organized anti-Gospel zealots about the Sabbath or anything else.

Furthermore, if “individuality” were so bad, there would not have been so many apostles, and so many personalities.  Such a large number, which mirrors the 12 tribes, is a clear sign that there is to be many different personalities invited into the Kingdom of God.

Bob 2 said:  Tom, you are stuck on a 24 hour period. The Sabbath was given to a specific people, but it was fulfilled by Christ, who is our rest.

Tom said:  Ha! This is too funny.  Make a note:  Everyone on planet earth is “stuck” on a 24 hour period, as well as a 7 day weekly cycle. 

This is why everyone is walking around with wristwatches.  And why everyone has calendars and pays close attention to the time.  Even a child understand that the world is based on a 24 hour period, which is why they have to go to bed at a certain time so that can get up at a certain time to be in school at a certain time.

How desperate and dishonest does one have to be to promote this garbage?  If your views need such nonsense for support, then what is the point?

You have promoted one error after another, including this strange view that Jesus is an OT figure whose teachings were for the Jews, not the Church.  All that you have accomplished is to make a fool of yourself, even as you have made it clear that you do not understand the NT, nor do you want to follow the theology of Jesus.  Each to their own.

Furthermore, the Sabbath was made for the Jews and then recalibrated for the Church, which means that it was also made for the Gentiles who have embraced the Gospel Story.  Those who do not believe the Gospel, do not have a Sabbath.  They are standing outside the Kingdom of God.

Bob 2 said: I nor the Gospel, as I read it, cares not if you worship God on Saturday or Sunday, but the Gospel I see from my study urges you to realize that, TODAY, you can have the ultimate goal of the Gospel, REST IN JESUS CHRIST, plain and simple.

Tom said:  The problem is that you do not know how to honestly or correctly read the Bible or understand the Gospel.  Few SDA’s do. 

Why?  Because their leaders have taught them how to misuse and abuse the scriptures, ignoring what they don’t like, even as they manipulate the Word to say what they want it to say.  Such hermeneutical fraud will never lead to a clear or correct understanding of the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath.

Jesus is the central figure in the Gospel.   If you take the time to read about his Gospel Sabbath, then you will see that he cares very much about his Sabbath teaching.  Your dishonest stunt of trying to define the NC Sabbath by the deliberate mis-interpretation of Heb 4: 9 shows that you are not honest or qualified to opine on Church doctrine.

Bob 2 said:  You have been unable to prove to any of us that the Sabbath/Saturday or Sunday was to be held in the regard you claim.

Tom said:  This is sad.  You are acting like the TSDA’s, who also refuse to understand.  Very sad.

The fact of the matter is that every church and denomination in the world, both Catholic and Protestant, holds the weekly Sabbath/ Sunday/ Lord’s Day in very high regard.  This is a self-evident fact that should need no proof from me.  But you are free to deny the facts and invent whatever myths and absurdities you want.  This is what all Laodiceans do, especially the SDA’s, which is why they have all been judged guilty in the PAJ, which is the LM. 

So your mind may already be ruined.  It may be too late for you and others to rehabilitate your brains and repair the damage that is so pervasive within the Adventist Community.  Just like many of the TSDA’s that come from the Adventist Community, many on the other side of the debate are also confused beyond hope of being rational or honest.  Pity.

Bob 2 said:  In Romans 11, the Vine is Jesus, the Church, not Jewry, the broken branches at it's base can be Jews or Gentiles that once were connected to Jesus.

Tom said:  Wrong again!  The broken branches, also called the “natural branches,” represent the Jews.  The new branches that were “grafted in” represent the Gentiles, who came into the Semitic based CHURCH. 

Your view, like so may others you hold, is absurd and impossible.  You need to stop pretending that you understand the NT, because it is obvious that you do not.  You are a loose cannon that does not understand the Bible, and you need to stop pretending otherwise.

Rom. 11:17  But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

Rom. 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

Rom. 11:19  You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

Rom. 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

Rom. 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

All should remember what happened to the Jews.  They too played fast and loose with the scriptures and were annihilated as a consequence.  They too refused to understand or embrace the Gospel teachings of Jesus, even as they went into a rage at his new, active and easy, Gospel Sabbath. 

Those that act like the Jews, will be treated like the faithless Jews.  Those that reject the Gospel and repudiate the Gospel Sabbath, like you are doing, will not be “spared” or saved.

Bob 2 said: I am not surprised at your position, because there is no hope of the SDAs listening to you at all if you accept NCT and Jesus as fulfilling the Sabbath.

Tom said:  You are being very foolish.  You do not have the education, knowledge, or experience to understand the NT correctly, much less what I am saying about the Gospel Sabbath.  You are in way over you head and the further you and Sirje talk the more foolish your views become.  Sorry.  But you need to study more and post less. 

As for the SDA’s, they are so much like the Jews that I doubt they will ever repent and embrace the correct Gospel or the correct Sabbath.  So whether they listen or not is beside the point.  Truth is truth regardless of who agrees or not, and so too is error.

At some point, those that are honest and have the Spirit of God, will understand the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath.  Thus God will raise up a group of believers that will prepare the church for the great tribulation and the Judgment regardless of the confusion and heresy that envelops Laodicea.  God is not fooled about any of this confusion, nor does he need the SDA’s, as they so arrogantly think.

Those that refuse to be honest with the Word, which are many, choosing double-talk, diversion, and error over the clear teachings of the Word, are delusional and self-condemned.  They will be surprised when Jesus disowns them on the Judgment Day. 

Matt. 7:21  “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Matt. 7:24  “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”

In conclusion, those that refuse to hear the words of Jesus about the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath, and refuse to follow them, are great fools in the sight of heaven.  They will not enter the Kingdom of God.

Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath

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