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You forced yourself, rather than staying and making a difference. If you are not employed by the brethern, you are in a better position to make a point inside rather than outside the organization. Don't you think? From where you are, you are just labelled an apostate, right???
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Bob Sands,
I think that it is one thing to disavow tithing and still be able to remain in the SDA church as I and my wife are still able to fellowship there. But it is very much a different thing to disavow Sabbath keeping.
Once someone stops observing the fourth commandment then it would not be possible to remain within the SDA fold. I cannot imagine anyone believing in Darwinism or someone not keeping the Sabbath and still calling himself a Seventh-day Adventist. But then maybe I am just old fashioned or not enough of a pluralist.
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org
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Then you haven't delved into my NCT section of this forum.
I have not disavowed Sabbath keeping, but realized from study, open to other views, that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath, the whole law in fact, with a new covenant, and became our True Sabbath Rest.
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/message … 1251220191
Specifically:
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Old fashioned, maybe not, but not open to truth, but hanging on to tradition, making the 24 hour period of time a god, and not believing that the law was fulfilled by Christ on the cross. The 2nd Covenant looks a lot alike the 1st but differs in some respect, just like if you divorce your first wife who you might have kids with, if you remarry, that contract is no good for enforcement by a judge if that 2nd marriage also dissolves.
If a community agrees to worship on Saturday, do so for the right reason. A good Catholic friend of mine fulfills her weekly requirement for mass on Saturday afternoon. Go figure, then sleeps in Sunday and recreates on Sunday.
Is your position another gospel?? The gospel is not a 24 hour period, but Jesus. The directives of the NT are the tenets of the New Covenant.
2 Corinthians 3
The Glory of the New Covenant
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Those holding your position say God used His very finger to engrave His eternal law in to stone to show it's eternal nature.
Can that law be His immutable law in existence since before Lucifer's fall from heaven. Can't be, no creation yet as outlined in the very 4th Commandment, eh?
And what is your definition of work. Must be different that Jesus/God's.
John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
The point is not the day you keep but the God you serve, Sabbath or Jesus/God.
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I didn't mention the Sabbath to begin a debate with anyone at this time about how to define the gospel of the New Covenant. I brought up the Sabbath to state the obvious that one can reject tithe paying and still be an SDA but one cannot reject the keeping of the seventh day Sabbath and still be an SDA.
The debating of your version of the gospel has been discussed with you in other threads by me and even you own brother. I will not again open this subject here since you have not been able to be convinced in those other threads to change your mind. You take the same position as Dale Ratzlaff. He and I discussed his version of the gospel on other forums and he will not accept my replys and obviously you will not either. I think that you must love it when somone here mentions the Sabbath so that you can have an opportunity to begin another debate. Don't forget that I knew your mother and brother Bill well.
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org
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Bob S.
I do apologize for misreading your post. I have to admit I didn't read everything prior to yours. I had been traveling and did not have access to the discussions. It was wrong for me to jump in without further research.
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No apology needed Sirge. we all misread each other from time to time.
Concerning my leaving the Adventist church, I surely didn't do it because of the people, they are a wonderful caring group. I had been struggling with the sister being a true prophet. For many years I saw that her writings were doing more harm to the church than could be imagined. Sabbath School and Bible study each week was a let down. We couldn't have a discussion without the prophet's input and that would end the discussion. Yes, there are some very hard texts in Scripture to understand and it was nice to have an authority that was supposed to have the ultimate answers, but that was not what we needed. We needed to search scripture for our understanding. Col 2 was extremely hard for me to digest using the sister's answer. As pointed out in Bobs post 2Cor 3 didn't make sense to me. The book of Galatians did not jive, in fact a lot of Paul's writings did not jive with the prophet's reasoning. That was a tremendous time of trouble for me.
As I related in my prior posts tithing did not jive with either the Old Covenant nor the New. Mrs White's writings are adamant about paying tithe. I found that she grated seriously with scripture. Prophets are to uplift the Word. She was denying so much in order to make the doctrines seem correct.
I never did understand the Sanctuary and IJ doctrines. Assembling a bunch of numbers together to come up to 1844 and the exact day in October was beyond my comprehension. I found out that many in the church felt the same way, but didn't care enough to seriously question. I started searching the writings of others who had doubts and/or conclusions and found common ground with their thoughts. Scripture then became alive for me.
Bob, my peers nor the pastor did not want to hear my new revelation. They were not in the least way sympathetic or helpful. I had to take a stand and let all know that what I had discovered was setting me free. Free from the yoke that all Adventists carry. They carry it and don't even realize it. It has become a necessity to them. The most burdensome is the writings of Mrs White. They are like Iron and clay. When closely examined they fall apart. They cannot stand. The prophet has failed the church.
Since I left the church I have re-discovered the pure and simple Gospel our Savior intended for His children. What a joy to be fully aware of my salvation, full knowing that I will stumble and Jesus will pick me up, clean me off and send me on my journey. This new journey is full and free, not cheap as some assume formers believe. The price, as you all know, was tremendously expensive, but it is offered to us as a free gift.
Thanks for hearing me out, if you did.
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/wink.gif
I pray for all of you and my prayer is that you too, will find or have found the path where you can serve our Savior to the fullest.
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Bob Shields,
Don't forget, Paul discribes the Christian walk not as you have, a dust off by Jesus and a pat on the back as you proceed. He described it as a cooperative fight or race, with empowerment from the Holy Spirit. You need not leave the SDA church to learn these things. However, my attendance at a Reformed Church has taught me I am not in sync with Calvinism. I have just sent a note asking them to remove my membership from their ranks for that and other personal reasons.
SDAs are not the only flawed denomination. But you can, I agree, learn more away from the constant bombardment every week of EGW quotes that outnumber Biblical quotes and study. My understanding that you well know, was obtained in that crucible. However, I did retain my SDA membership, because I have hope for the Adventists of Tomorrow!!!
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Bill Diehl, My career and livlihood were affected by my mother and my brothers views and activities. It is why I am not denominationally employed. My mother brought me into the world as a 10lb 8oz boy, which had to physically have altered her world, and before she passed away at 84 of CHF;refusing to follow her doctors orders I had the opportunity to tell her of my honor and respect though I differed with her views in many ways. My brother Bill is another story. He died, like J.R. from the ravages of Diabetes, only Bill died of kidney failure at 61 and I have vowed to outlive that and J.R. 60.
As far as you knowing them, every one is an individual. My view can easily blend into the SDA view. I do not have to accept every aspect of the SDA view to be an SDA Christian, forget that, to be a Christian, PERIOD.
What haven't I responded to of which you have asked. Because I have not changed to your view, you feel I have not answered you? How closed minded. I am open to someone, showing me Biblical texts that can convince me of my error. Dale Ratzlaff believes the SDA church is devil originated, I do not. I have spoken directly to him and asked him to remove that from their site which he and Colleen Tinker refuse to do, I think because SDAs do it relative to the Papacy and Roman Catholicism, and declaring them the AntiChrist. They figure what's fair is fair, can you blame them.
Please, Bill, don't fall into the trap I found in early mentors of mine, in cruel labelling that can affect relationships, and livlihoods.
Thanks.
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Bill, for your edification, note this exchange between J.R. and myself on .com about the Sabbath and your concern:
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Bob Shields, after reading your post above where you mentioned Colossian 2, I thought that I would just put the following post here for perhaps your possible thoughtful consideration. I know that there is some rather lengthy analysis of the Greek and Hebrew but maybe some here on the forum might like to wade through it. If not please just ignore it. Any input or reply would be welcomed by me. Here it is:
Regarding the issue of whether the ceremonial Sabbaths or the seventh-day Sabbath is the proper interpretation for Colossians 2:16:
Let no one judge you in food or drink or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths -sabaton:plural in Greek but usually correctly translated in the singular as Sabbath day which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17
Paul warns the believers in the church at Colossae to not allow themselves to be carried away by any teaching that is not according to Christ.
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ Colossians 2.
One such group was the proto-Gnostic Jewish converts to Christianity. They taught that Jesus was one of many great heavenly illuminated teachers or intermediators who came to reveal the secret rituals that were to be performed by the followers of the hidden knowledge. The followers were to pass through the steps of initiation or degrees to each successively higher step until one became a Master of Knowledge ;<i>Gnosis</i> such as Jesus supposedly was. These Jewish Gnostics incorporated the ritualism of Judaism into the Gnostic secrets and many saw the Christian religion as a source of higher knowledge and Jesus as a great ascended Master of the Mystery Religions. Paul warned Timothy about these Gnostic invaders of the church:
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science {Gr. gnosis: science or knowledge:} falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. 1 Timothy 6:20-21
The rituals of these Jewish Gnostic Christians consisted of ritualistic ascetic observance of the feast days, the new moons, and the Sabbath. There were cultic ceremonies for each of these Jewish holy days which were to be stringently observed. There were also strict dietary observances, fasts, neglecting of the body, self imposed religious austerity, false humility, and the worship of heavenly messengers or Angels. Christ, to these apostates, was not the unique Creator God made flesh who cancelled our sins and gave us eternal life, justifying us by faith alone in His precious blood.
Christ was merely one of many heavenly enlightened Masters to show the way to the Godhead and Divinity. Jesus was to them the great Example of how to work ones way to perfection through stages of cultic progression through asceticism and visions and heavenly revelations. Salvation for these Jewish mutilators of the flesh was to perform the good works of the Torah just as Christ had performed and fulfilled the Torah. To them Christ was circumcised, observed the ceremonies of the Torah and had worked the works of the Law and finally earned His reward of eternal life by His works. Therefore by following the Example of Jesus as perfectly as He had performed the Torah, they could, through the progressive degrees of mysticism, attain to blessedness, perfection and eternal life.
These Gnostics wanted nothing to do with the Gospel that Paul preached. Paul and the apostles taught that our Lord Jesus Christ was first and foremost our Substitute. Christ as eternal God in the flesh ---
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority Colossians 2:9-10
---became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him by faith. That is, God imputes the perfect life and atoning death of Jesus unto the believing repentant sinner and he is accounted sinless in the merciful reckoning of God. Paul taught that sinners are reconciled to God by grace alone through faith in the works which Jesus did for us on the Cross of Calvary NOT the works which the believer performs.
Those who rest in the finished atonement of Christ on the cross receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and bring forth the fruits of the Spirit in their lives as He writes the holy Law of God upon the fleshy tablets of the heart.
The ritualistic observance of ceremonies and rites associated with the meat and drink offerings and holy days of the Torah were mere shadows of that which Christ was the substance and fulfillment. Paul emphatically declares that no amount of any good works, neither ceremonial law nor moral law or even the Ten Commandments themselves on the part of the sinner can justify and reconcile us to God!!
These apostate Judaisers then turned on Paul and slanderously accused him of teaching, Let us do evil that good may come Rom 3:8. They blasphemously charged him with teaching that since we are justified only by the unmerited mercy of God through faith in the blood of Christ without works, Christians are therefore free to sin that grace might abound.
Paul was teaching nothing of the kind. Paul was teaching that obedience to the Law of God must never be used as a means of acceptance justification with God, but rather that obedience to the commandments could be fulfilled in the believer only through the Spirit in works of love for God and one another Rom 13:8. Thus love is the fulfilling of the Law. Rather than being saved by obeying God's Law, we are saved to the obeying of God's Law. Loving obedience to the Ten Commandments is the fruit of having been justified by God's grace. This teaching of the Third Use of the Law is reflected in all of the great Protestant creeds of the Lutheran and Calvin and Wesley traditions.
The good works of loving obedience to the commandments of God of the believing repentant saints, however, are still in need of the imputed righteousness of Christ. The incense of Christ's imputed righteousness must be the salt that is added to every good work, even those good works motivated by the Holy Spirit.
Paul never intended believers to feel that the Law of God was to be willfully disregarded, including the fourth commandment. Paul taught that, to the believer the Sabbath takes on even more significance. The Sabbath day is a sign, not only of God's rest after having created the universe in six days, but, as Paul tells us in Hebrews 4 the Sabbath also is a metaphor of the rest we have in the finished redemptive work of Jesus . We rest in His perfect sinless life and His atoning death for our sins. We celebrate His victory on the cross and His glorious resurrection for our justification.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His. Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest. Heb 4:9
And therefore it was imputed to Abraham for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Romans 4:22 - 5:1
To touch on another point raised in the discussions regarding how to interpret Colossians 2:13-14
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14
J. B. Phillips paraphrases verse fourteen: “Christ has utterly wiped out the damning evidence of broken laws and commandments which always hung over our heads.”
Other scholars translate:
“Canceling the record of debt” ESV,
“having blotted out the bond written in ordinances” (ASV),
“He cancelled the bond...” TCNT,
“cancelled the note that stood against us, with its requirements...Williams
The NET Bible reads: He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.
This verse 14 is concerning a bill of debt that is owed by the sinner. It was an <i>indictment</i> which set out all of the charges again the sinner. "Exaleipho means “to wipe off, to wipe away, to obliterate, erase.” God has wiped our bill of indebtedness completely clean by the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ. We are no longer under the curse of the law. Paul says our indictment has been nailed to the cross. The bill has been marked “Paid in Full.” The debt has been wiped out, cancelled. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus” Romans 8:1. It is because we have been justified by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. Our debt to the Law has been covered over by the blood of Christ.
Greek: <i>exaleipsas to kath hemon cheirographon tois dogmasin o en hupenantion hemin, kai auto erken ek tou mesou proselosas auto to stauro<
Amplified: Having cancelled and blotted out and wiped away the handwriting of the note bond with its legal decrees and demands which was in force and stood against us hostile to us. This [note with its regulations, decrees, and demands] He set aside and cleared completely out of our way by nailing it to [His] cross.
Barclay's Translation: and wiped out the charge-list which set out all your self-admitted debts, a charge-list which was based on the ordinances of the law and was in direct opposition to you. He nailed it to his Cross and put it right out of sight.
Lightfoot: then and there canceling the bond which stood valid against us for it bore our own signature, the bond which engaged us to fulfill all the law of ordinances, which was our stern pitiless tyrant. Yes, this very bond Christ has put out of sight forever, nailing it to his cross and rending it with his body and killing it in his death.
NET: He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.
NIV: having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
NRS: erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross.
Phillips: Christ has utterly wiped out the damning evidence of broken laws and commandments which always hung over our heads, and has completely annulled it by nailing it over his own head on the cross.
Weymouth: The bond, with its requirements, which was in force against us and was hostile to us, He cancelled, and cleared it out of the way, nailing it to His Cross.
West: having obliterated the hand-written document consisting of ordinances, the one [which was] against us, which was directly opposed to us, and He removed it out of the midst with the result that it is no longer there, having nailed it to the Cross;
Young's Literal: having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;
<i>Exaleipho</i> signifies to smear or plaster over and then it is used to denote the act by which a deed of obligation is cancelled...the word...means here to expunge. That to which the process of obliteration is applied is appropriately termed a handwriting <i>cheirographon<, a note of hand, a written bond which... signifies a claim of unpaid debt ... is also one of punishment for it was against us. Colossians 2:14, 15 <i>In Depth Commentary</i>
Synonyms would include <i>blotted out, wiped away, obliterated, effaced completely, expunged</i>.
There are only 5 uses of <i>exaleipho</i> in the NT...
Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be <b>wiped away</b>, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.
Colossians 2:14 having <b>canceled out</b> the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not <i>erase</i> his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.
Revelation 7:17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them to springs of the water of life; and God shall <b>wipe</b> every tear from their eyes.
Revelation 21:4 and He shall <b>wipe away</b> every tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any death; there shall no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.
There are 34 uses of <i>exaleipho</i> in the Septuagint (LXX;Gen. 7:4, 23; 9:15; Exod. 17:14; 32:32f; Lev. 14:42f, 48; Num. 5:23; 27:4; Deut. 9:14; 25:6, 19; 29:20; Jdg. 15:16; 21:17; 2 Ki. 14:27; 1 Chr. 29:4; Neh. 13:14; Ps. 9:5; 51:1, 9; 69:28; 109:13, 14; Pr 6:33; Isa. 43:25; Je 18:23; Ezek 9:8; 20:17; 22:30; 25:15; Hos. 11:9
Genesis 7:4 For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will <b>blot out</b> from the face of the land every living thing that I have made.
Genesis 9:15 and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you Noah and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy LXX = <i>exaleipho</i> = blot out all flesh.
Exodus 17:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, Write this in a book as a memorial, and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out LXX = <i>exaleipho</i> the memory of Amalek from under heaven.
Exodus 32:32 But now, if Thou wilt, forgive their sin-- and if not, please blot me out LXX = <i>exaleipho</i> from Thy book which Thou hast written! 33 And the LORD said to Moses, Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out LXX = <i>exaleipho</i> of My book.
Leviticus 14:42 Then they shall take other stones and replace those stones; and he shall take other plaster and replaster Hebrew = <i>tuach</i> = to overspread, overlay, coat, besmear; LXX = <i>exaleipho</i>) the house.
Numbers 5:23 The priest shall then write these curses on a scroll, and he shall wash them off Hebrew = <i>machah</i> = to wipe, wipe out; LXX = <i>exaleipho</i> into the water of bitterness.
Deuteronomy 9:14 Let Me alone, that I may destroy them and <b>blot out</b> their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and greater than they.
Judges 21:17 And they said, There must be an inheritance for the survivors of Benjamin, that a tribe may not be blotted out Hebrew = <i>machah</i> = to wipe, wipe out; LXX = <i>exaleipho</i> from Israel.
Psalm 51:1 Be gracious to me, O God, according to Thy loving-kindness. According to the greatness of Thy compassion blot out LXX =<i>exaleipho</i>my transgressions.
Psalm 51:9 Hide Thy face from my sins, and <b>blot out</b> all my iniquities.
Psalm 69:28 May they be <b>blotted out</b> of the book of life, And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am the One Who wipes out LXX =<i>exaleipho</i>) your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins.
<i>cheirographon</i> from <i>cheir</i> = hand <i>grapho</i> = write is literally handwriting or a handwritten document and then a written record of a debt such as a promissory note. A document is written in one's own hand as a proof of obligation, e.g., a note of indebtedness. The word means primarily <i>a bond written by a person pledging himself to make certain payments</i>.
Friberg writes that figuratively in the only NT use in Colossians 2:14 <i>cheirographon</i> refers <b>not to the law itself</b>, but to the <b>record of charges</b> for breaking God's law), which stood against us and which God symbolically removed by nailing it to the cross, handwritten account, record of debts. Friberg, T., Friberg, B., & Miller, N. F. <i>Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament</i>. Baker Academic
In Colossians 2:14 <i>cheirographon</i> means:
a “promissory note.” God cancels the bond that lies to our charge. This bond is not a compact with the devil, as in some patristic exegesis. It is the debt that we have incurred with God. The forgiveness of sins through identification with Christ in his vicarious death and resurrection means that this note is cancelled; God has set it aside and nailed it to the cross. Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. <i>Theological Dictionary of the New Testament</i>. Eerdmans
In Philemon we find an IOU of Paul in writing:
I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand, I will repay it, not to mention to you that you owe to me even your own self as well. Philemon 1:19
Martin Luther told once how Satan laid heavy condemnation on him because of his sins. Luther told Satan to list them all, and even reminded him of some he had forgotten. Then he told Satan to write across the whole list paid in full by the blood of Jesus Christ, and Luther rejoiced in the payment Jesus made.
this note with its legal decrees and demands which was in force and stood against us hostile to us. Amp
God wiped out the charges that were against us for disobeying the Law of Moses. CEV
<i>Dogma</i> (from <i>dokeo</i> = to think, to seem refers to a formal statement concerning rules or regulations that are to be observed. Public decrees, binding rules, ordinances, legal demands, obligations, regulations. This Greek word can refer to a formalized rule or set of rules prescribing what people must observe. Dogma has the sense of a fixed and authoritative decision or requirement.
<i>Dogma</i> - is used 5 times in the NT...
Luke 2:1 Now it came about in those days that a <b>decree</b> went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
Acts 16:4 Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the <b>decrees</b>, which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe.
Acts 17:7 and Jason has welcomed them, and they all act contrary to the of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.
Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in <b>ordinances</b>, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
Colossians 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of <b>decrees</b> against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
So in summary, to say that Paul's epistle to the Colossians in 2:14 is dealing with the ceremonial laws of Moses as having been nailed to the cross is not really in keeping with sound exegesis. I realize that this interpretation has been offered by many SDAs in the past but the context and the Greek does not really support this view. There is an SDA gentleman who is doing his PhD on this text and offering this interpretation but is not really doing very good scholarship and research.
But neither does the Greek and the context support the view that the Ten Commandments have been nailed to the cross either. The fact is that Paul had neither of the these interpretations in mind in Colossians 2:14.
Bill Diehl,
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org
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Bill you fail to talk to the engraved quote of 2 Cor 3:7. What of that?
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Bill, so I don't have to chew my cabbage twice:
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Bill that thread in .com, go to the first, very first archive and start reading. Your post above is lengthy, the thread I started, I reference, gets into the nooks and crannies of the Sabbath issue. It is my response to your above post, not to be accused of not responding, eh??
The richness of the debate in threads like this, Ryan, is an excellent motivation to attempt to get the Estate of J.R. to supply that CD or access to the DISCUS file to meld it into your new format. Maybe John Alfke through his sister or the nephew that posted on .net here just the other day.
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Col 2:14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. What did Jesus triumph over at the Cross? Could it be the Law of Moses?
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Hi Bill, WOW! Someone sure did dig deep in the past to find all that fairly intricate information. It would be nice if you would list the source.
Maybe all those facts are not that relevant in determining what Paul was telling the Colossians. Whether or not those opposing the church were Gnostic or just Jews should not change the facts of what Paul was telling the church. I had to look elsewhere to put the pieces together. What we do know about verse 14 is that Paul was either referring to the Law of Moses or God's written list of sins we have compiled. What ever it was we know that it was nailed to His Cross.
We get a good hint in verses 16 and 17 that he was referring to the Law of Moses, but for some that is not at all conclusive. He referrers to both parts of that law. Sabbath taken from the 10 Commandments, New Moons, festival Sabbaths and food and drink laws taken from the remainder of the 316 laws that comprised the Torah. Further we get some very good information when he tells us that meat and drink, festivals, new moons and Sabbaths are just shadows or could we now say, in the past or nailed to His Cross. The reality now is we don't serve the past laws, we serve Jesus.
If this is true scripture will bear it out. The best place to find out what is meant is to go to Jesus own words on the matter. I believe His words will also clarify verses 14 and 15.
Matt 5: 17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
The summation of those verses are that it was not Jesus purpose to abolish the 316 laws of the Torah and those 316 laws would not disappear until all was accomplished or fulfilled. It does say that they would disappear, but not until. What had to be accomplished before the until? We know from the Cross account at the death of Jesus the Vail of the Temple was torn from top to bottom signaling that at least part of the 316 laws were no longer in effect. Paul tells us that the Sabbath which was one of the ten was now reduced from a command to no one should judge us and that they are shadows and the same for new moons and Sabbath festivals. Further Matt gives us a good indication what was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14, which was the Old Covenant law.
From Jer. 31:31-32 we glean this: The time is coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers...
It would be a different covenant. The New Covenant is a different covenant. No circumcision, etc. in fact most of the 316 laws contained in the Old Covenant are now missing. Also Jesus in later verses of Matt 5 declares that He is changing some of the 10 commandments and making them more stringent. He went so far as to tell us that our moral obligation is to love our neighbor and even our enemy. This is something else not found in the 10 Commandments.
To add more proof to Col 2, we have the account in 2 Cor 3 that tells us that the Commandments written on stone have faded and our continuing guide is now the Holy Spirit. Galatians and Romans adds more kindling to the already blazing fire that, to me, proves in Col 2 that we are no longer under the 10 Commandments or the remainder of the Torah.
I would appreciate your or anyone's critique.
Message edited by bob on October 18, 2009
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Bob S. and S.,
Any of the signs and seals of the covenant can be misused and made to be more than God intended for them to be. For instance, the Lords supper can be misused and instead of being a proclamation of the Lords death till He comes, it can be misused and made into a means of grace transsubstantiation rather than a sign or teaching of grace.
The same can be done to the sign of baptism. It can be distorted by false teachers to become a <i>means</i> of grace baptismal regeneration rather than a symbol or sign of grace. In doing this the <i>shadow</i> which points to Christ is distorted so that it is made into a salvific ritual with saving merit in itself. The substance;Col 2:17 NKJV or the reality is our Lord Jesus Christ who saves the repentant believing sinner by virtue of His sinless life and atoning death imputed to the account of the believer.
The same can be said of the Sabbath day. It can be distorted by false teachers so that observing the Sabbath becomes a <i>means</i> of grace rather than a <i>sign</i> or <i>symbol</i> of grace. This is what the Parisees did to the Sabbath in Christs day. The <i>shadow</i> was distorted into a <i>saving</i> ritual rather than a <i>symbol</i> pointing to the <i>reality</i> of Gods saving grace through faith in the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ as our Creator <i>and</i> Redeemer (see Hebrews 4.
The Gnostic Jewish pseudo-Christian converts in Colossae and Galatia had taken the Torah of God -the ceremonial rituals including even the Ten Commandments, and attempted to turn it into a <i>means</i> of salvation. They totally rejected Pauls teaching of justication by Gods unmerited grace alone through faith alone in the sinless life and atoning death of Christ alone. They were attempting to reach eternal life by the imitation of Christs life works rather than by faith in the ;substitution of Christ's life in place of our sinful unholy life.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written,The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:16-17
So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them. But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for the just shall live by faith." Galatians 3:9-11
Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.Hebrews 10:38-39
Paul is making a similar point in 2 Corinthians 3:6-18. The shadow, the once glorious old Levitical covenant, has been <i>replaced</i> by the more brilliant "glory" of the reality. The Old Covenant is now a covenant of death to the unbelieving Jews and is a an old dead "letter". It once had a <i>glory</i> but its glory has been superceed by the superlative <i>glory</i> of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant. To remain in the old letter of the Law is to be dead. But to walk in the Spirit is life because we are righteous justified by Gods grace in Christ. The unbelieving Jews of Pauls day were still under the veil of unbelief. This veil can only be removed through faith in Christ.
When we read Pauls epistle to the Hebrews we see the same warning by Paul. He warns the Hebrew Christians not to return to the Old Covenant because the New Covenant is a better covenant ministered by Christ. The shadow has been replaced by the reality in Jesus Christ. Gods means of justification is now through the blood, not of rams or goats any more, but through faith in the blood of Jesus Christ. The just shall have the verdict of life by faith. Justification is now by faith in the true Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. To return to the old covenant is to be under the Law as a means of justification. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness justification to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4
Pauls gospel was neither legalistic nor antinomian. He always made a distinction between justification and sanctification but he never separated them. The New Covenant promise is to forgive the sins of the believer <i>and</i> to write Gods Law on the fleshy tablets of the believers heart through the indwelling Holy Spirit, see Romans 8.
Bill Diehl
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
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The New Covenant promise is to forgive the sins of the believer and to write God's Law on the fleshy tablets of the believer's heart through the indwelling Holy Spirit, see Romans 8.
Christians don't seem to agree as to the specifics of that law written on the heart.
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Don, yes, today's Christians do in fact dissagree as to the meaning of the Law written upon the heart. However if we would look as the great Protestant creeds from either the Lutheran, Calvinist, or Wessleyian traditions they all agree that it is the Ten Commandments which are written upon the tablets of the heart by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is only a repentant believer who can say with the Psalmist:
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the path of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful; But his <i>delight</i> is in the law of the LORD, <Psalm 1:1-2
Notice how Paul seems to be quoting from Psalm one when he uses the word -delight- For I <i>delight</i> in the law of God according to the inward man. Romans 7:22
Then Paul finishes chapter seven with:
I thank God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:25
When Christ sat down upon His throne at His ascension, He began his work as a Judge and King/Priest. See how David longs for God to judge him:
I will be glad and rejoice in You; I will sing praise to Your name, O Most High. When my enemies turn back, They shall fall and perish at Your presence. For You have maintained my right and my cause; You sat on the throne judging in righteousness. You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever. O enemy, destructions are finished forever! And you have destroyed cities; Even their memory has perished. But the LORD shall endure forever; He has prepared His throne for judgment. He shall judge the world in righteousness, And He shall administer judgment for the peoples in uprightness. Psalm 9:2-8
Psalm 5:9-10 9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; Their inward part is destruction; Their throat is an open tomb; They flatter with their tongue. 10 Pronounce them guilty, O God! Let them fall by their own counsels; Cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions, For they have rebelled against You." Psalm 9:2-8
Psalm 19:7-14. The law of the LORD is perfect</b>, converting the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; <b>The commandment of the LORD is pure</b>, enlightening the eyes; 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, Yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11 Moreover by them Your servant is warned, And in keeping them there is great reward. 12 Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults. 13 Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins; Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, And I shall be innocent of great transgression. 14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my strength and my Redeemer.
Notice that the Lord writes His Law upon the heart of the humble repentant one:
Psalm 37:30-34 0 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom, And his tongue talks of justice. 31 <b>The law of his God is in his heart</b>; None of his steps shall slide. 32 The wicked watches the righteous, And seeks to slay him. 33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand, Nor condemn him when he is judged. 34 Wait on the LORD, And keep His way, And He shall exalt you to inherit the land; When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.
Of Christ it is said:
Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. Then I said, Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, <b>And Your law is within my heart. Psalm 40:6-8
Psalm 119:1-6 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, Who walk in the law of the LORD! 2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies, Who seek Him with the whole heart! 3 They also do no iniquity; They walk in His ways. 4 You have commanded us To keep Your precepts diligently. 5 Oh, that my ways were directed To keep Your statutes! 6 Then I would not be ashamed, When I look into all Your commandments.
Psalm 119:16-21 I will delight myself in Your statutes; I will not forget Your word. 17 Deal bountifully with Your servant, That I may live and keep Your word. 18 Open my eyes, that I may see Wondrous things from Your law. 19 I am a stranger in the earth; Do not hide Your commandments from me. 20 My soul breaks with longing For Your judgments at all times. 21 You rebuke the proud -- the cursed, Who stray from Your commandments."
Notice how Solomon delights in the Law of God:
Hear, my children, the instruction of a father, And give attention to know understanding; For I give you good doctrine: Do not forsake my law. Proverbs 4:1-2
Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye. 3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart. 4 Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman: 5 That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words." Proverbs 7:2-5
Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded. The law of the wise is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death. Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard. Proverbs 13:13-15
Christ said regarding the commandments of the Law:
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19-20
James the brother of our Lord warns us:
So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God. Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. James 1:19-25
Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called? If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not murder. Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:7-13
John warns us:
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:2-10
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation 22:14-15
How magnificent is God's word!! It is only those who wish to forsake the Law of God who attempt to misinterpret Paul's discourses on justification by faith and twist his meaning to forsake the commandments of God. Christ truly is our mercy seat and those who forsake the Law of God forget that the mercy seat where <i>atonement</i> was effected by the blood of lamb was intimately located just above the holy, just, and good Law of God. The reconciliation effected by the blood of Christ reckons us righteous before the holy Law of God. Where sin abounds, grace has much more abounded.
Bill D.
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
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The same can be said of the Sabbath day. It can be distorted by false teachers so that observing the Sabbath becomes a means of grace rather than a sign or symbol of grace. This is what the Parisees did to the Sabbath in Christs day. The shadow was distorted into a saving ritual rather than a symbol pointing to the reality of Gods saving grace through faith in the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ as our Creator and Redeemer see Hebrews.
This is a very important statement Bill, as it differentiates between man being made for the Sabbath, which would imply a legalistic effort meriting salvation, or the Sabbath being made for man, a symbol of our rest in Jesus.
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh Strongs: 7886, tranquil come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. Genesis 49:10.
This would indicate to me that until Shiloh come translates, until our rest comes, our tranquility in Jesus. The Sabbath being, as you have shown, a symbol of that rest.
We can rest knowing that because He fulfilled His mission at the cross, that we, by His enabling grace, will continue through the Spirit to, mortify the deeds of the body Rom.8:13, and that He is coming again to finally take us into complete rest from all the evil that this world is held in. Therefore, there remains a rest far greater than the rested walk we have by faith in Him right now.
Thanks for bringing that up Bill. <
Cadge
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Abraham kept the commandments of God, which at times were move here, take your son to sacrifice him, but if the 10 were that urgent, Moses came closer to seeing God on Mt Sinai than any of us ever have, why not include something, anything about Sabbath and or its violation from Creation to Exodus 16? Am I arguing from silence anymore than you are??
Also, if the 4th commandment mentions a memorial to creation, how could it be God's immutable law that was in existence before Lucifer fell? I think I asked that without Bill D. responding. Bill, notice this exchange between Hubb and I regarding the wording of covenants and laws:
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As I related in my post, we do know what is and is not part of the law written on our hearts. We know for sure that it is not the 10 commandments as written on the stone tablets. Please do not ignore the fact that the Old Covenant was fulfilled at the Cross. Sabbath became history along with most of the 316 laws given only to the Israelites at Sinai. Sabbath law is not written on our hearts. Had the commandment been written on our hearts people everywhere would be flocking into church on Sabbath. They would recognize immediately that this is God's desire for mankind. For anyone to keep pounding away at trying to convert people back under the law is an atrocity. We have enough scriptural proof to know this is nonsense. Not only do SDAs reestablish Sabbath from the relics of OC history, they do the same with the unclean meat laws and tithing laws. Some are trying to dust off more relics like the festivals to try to prove their point concerning Col 2. E. G. White is their worst road block or you would be voting on it in a G. C. session.
Bill, your parallels are well taken. I would like to add my thoughts about the Sabbath.
You wrote: The same can be said of the Sabbath day. It can be distorted by false teachers so that observing the Sabbath becomes a means of grace rather than a sign or symbol of grace. This is what the Parisees did to the Sabbath in Christ's day. The shadow was distorted into a saving ritual rather than a symbol pointing to the reality of God's saving grace through faith in the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ as our Creator and Redeemer see Hebrews 4.
The SDA Church doesn't recognize that the Sabbath is but a shadow. To the SDA the Sabbath reigns very high on the list of accomplishments required before victory can be claimed. SDAs do not recognize that Jesus is reality. He is in the here and now. He has saved us from eternal damnation. We do not need to just remember the creation, because we have the Creator and can rest in Him everyday. That is why we do not hear anymore about the necessity of observing the weekly Sabbath law in the Epistles. We have something far superior than the weekly rest given to the Israelites that only pointed backward to their release from Egypt and creation and pointed forward to Jesus. That is why Paul stated that it was/is a shadow.
SDAs will never get the real meaning from scripture until they get past the mountain of garbage written by E. G. White.
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Bill, the Psalmist and other Old Testament writers had to work with what they were given on Sinai. Of course they praised what they had. We have been given even more loving favor. Our Covenant is rich with love and wonderful ways we can express our joy for His everlasting Love.
There is nothing wrong with remembering God's great love for the Israelite nation and the laws he gave them. Now we have the greatest love that could be bestowed. Why not abound in His love and write about His New everlasting ultimate Covenant? Why be stuck in what is now mere history? Since Jesus appeared on our behalf we have the ultimate story to relate.
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Bob Shields,
I can truly empathize with your disappointment with the Seventh-day Adventist movement and the immaturity of the pioneers of the movement which has carried over to the present. Rather than continue to advance with the light of justification by faith which began to shine in 1888 through Waggoner and Jones, the movement has stagnated into a cultic wooden legalism which focuses on the state of the dead, the Sabbath and the commandments of God, the second coming of Christ, and diet, dress, and health reform, and the Spirit of Prophecy as the test of ones orthodoxy in the truth.
Is it any wonder that those who by Gods grace find the pearl of great price---justification by God's unmerited grace <i>alone</i> through faith <i>alone</i> in the sinless life and atoning death of our Lord Jesus Christ <i>alone</i> as revealed in the Bible <i>alone</i>---become so intolerant of the old wine of Adventist legalism that ministers and laymen alike walk away from the movement altogether?
Most of thedistinctives of Adventism are very <i>good</i> things but the good things have crowded out the <i>best</i> thing---the gospel and justification by faith. Focusing on the prophecies of Daniel and the intricacies of apocalyptic symbolism has not allowed the full blazing joyful light of the everlasting gospel to eclipse the <i>shadows</i> of Daniel. The book of Daniel was unsealed in the Christ event, not in the 19th century.
I could go on and on about the shadows symbols which have become an end in themselves as the pillars of Adventism, but I have covered both the liabilities of the movement on the one hand and the assets of the movement on the other hand in one of my previous posts in the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message thread of the Adventist Reform topic of this Atomorrow forum.
But one thing is absolutely sure about Adventism, the Lord is in this movement and despite all of its immaturity and foolish walking in the shadows, Christ will have a final remnant which keeps the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ the everlasting Gospel. The Law of God will be the standard of the judgment and the blood of the Lamb will reckon the remnant as righteous in that judgment, by faith alone.
Bill D.
Message edited by BillDLJr on October 19, 2009
Bill Diehl, editor
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There is nothing wrong with meeting on Saturday to worship God. If I was close to an SDA church that gave me a blessing each week I would probably attend. However, this week I attended a gospel believing Baptist contemporary service that I really received a blessing from. I am not trying to attract anyone away or saying the Baptists have it right, so don't panic.
The point being, worship on the day for the right reason. The community of believers are the ones under the New Covenant that can determine when that is. WCG went through this and some still meet on Saturday, some on Sunday and like I pointed out elsewhere, one Baptist church in Memphis has believers worshipping on Tuesday evening who have livlihoods that have them occupied on Sunday morning.
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Very good point Bob. My take from the New Testament is found in Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
I view that wise statement as a command. We are not commanded to meet at any specific time or day. Our assembly isn't scripturally dictated as to how we conduct our meeting. We are given great freedom in our worship style and I see nothing wrong with the contemporary style even though I prefer a quieter atmosphere. People are slow to change and we have to give them some slack too. But I do believe it is wrong for the body of believers to stifle the young people and keep them from enjoying a more upbeat service. Let me tell you about my experience with stifling.
When I was attending the SDA Church and was head deacon we had two services on Sabbath. One was contemporary. One lady didn't like the idea and tried in every way to find fault. Her last fault to me was that the pulpit should never be removed from the center of the platform. I told her that I would nail it down with 10 inch spikes if she would bring me some authoritative evidence. She backed off, but there were enough people that protested the service that finally the pastors were removed and the church went back to the Godly style of worship only. After my term was completed we left after giving it 35 years of service.
I couldn't believe how hateful some of my brothers and sisters could get. Being head deacon I stayed out of the fracas, but it did take a tremendous tole on me. We found a small group who were planting a new church and enjoyed helping there. That was a blessing because it was then that I started studying in earnest. The truths I found in my study has set me free.
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