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Tom if you believe Ellen White to be the messenger of God's directives to the remnant church, then you must abide by the instruction, or be in disobedience. Those with a spirit of disobedience cut themselves off from the eternal society of the redeemed. It's kind of like "To him that esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean" Rom 14:14. If you indulge when you believe it's sinful to, then you have a disobedient spirit and cut yourself off. That would be the spirit that Lucifer and his followers were of that caused them to be cast out of the heavenly realm. Are you, by your prophets instruction, to guard the edges of the Sabbath, nor work within, or not?
Cadge
Counsels for the Church (1991), page 263, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: Chapter 47 - The Observance of God's Holy Sabbath
We should jealously guard the edges of the Sabbath. Remember that every moment is consecrated, holy time. Whenever it is possible, employers should give their workers the hours from Friday noon until the beginning of the Sabbath. Give them time for preparation, that they may welcome the Lord's day with quietness of mind. By such a course you will suffer no loss even in temporal things.
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Oops, meant to add this one too:
Testimonies for the Church Volume Six (1901), page 356, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Section Six - Cautions and Counsels
We should jealously guard the edges of the Sabbath. Remember that every moment is consecrated, holy time. Whenever it is possible, employers should give their workers the hours from Friday noon until the beginning of the Sabbath. Give them time for preparation, that they may welcome the Lord's day with quietness of mind. By such a course you will suffer no loss even in temporal things.
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Bob 2 said: Tom, to believe just the first few paragraphs of what you wrote, I would have to throw out many Bible texts.
Tom said: Jesus is to be viewed as a New Covenant figure who taught a Gospel Sabbath for the church, which he founded.
There is no basis to claim that Jesus is an Old Testament figure who taught an OC Sabbath to the Jews.
Nor is there any basis to declare that Jesus is our spiritual rest and therefore, the Sabbath is now extinct, and there is no weekly Sabbath or Lord’s Day for the church.
Such views are wrong. They have been correctly repudiated over the long ages of the church, and thus neither RC nor Protestant scholar will embrace your views.
Bob 2 said: I'm done responding when the Bible is not respected but your opinion is held up over sacred scripture.
Tom said: We view Jesus and the Two Covenants very differently, as well as the meaning, purpose, and interpretation of his Sabbath teachings.
Thus we can never agree on much of anything. So this would be a good place for you to stop.
Don said: Some seem to say that since Jesus spoke before the apostolic era, His messages are in effect gone with the prior covenant. This is unacceptable.
Tom said: I don’t know of any Christian scholar or theologian who thinks Jesus was an Old Covenant teacher. This is really an absurd position.
Don said: Jesus is the spokesperson for all the Covenants.
Tom said: Moses is the real “spokesperson” for the OC. Jesus and the Apostles represent the NC.
Don said: There are eternal principles true for all administrations. Jesus' actions are for us to imitate. His words are for us to follow. His person, we acknowledge as God; to be worshipped and adored.
Tom said: Jesus teaches a very different Sabbath from what the SDA’s teach, as well as a different Gospel and Judgment. The SDA’s do not follow the teachings of Jesus or the apostles. This is the problem.
Cadge said: Tom if you believe Ellen White to be the messenger of God's directives to the remnant church, then you must abide by the instruction, or be in disobedience.
Tom said: Although Ellen White had spiritual gifts, her views matured over time. This can be seen in her various views of the Sabbath, which evolved from Sunday to Saturday, and then from 6:00 pm start and stop time to Sundown, as discovered by J N Andrews in the 1850’s.
Ellen White would hardly mind a further clarification about the Gospel or the Sabbath. In fact, she would be thrilled that the SDA’s have finally starting discussing meaningful issues, especially about this Reformed Sabbath doctrine that should have emerged as a result of the 1888 debates.
Furthermore, she never claimed that SDA’s had found all truth. In fact, she said the opposite, even as she expected new truths to become manifest in the future.
Ellen White was a legalist up until the 1888 debates. So her OC views about the Sabbath reflect these errors, even as she clearly writes after 1888 that many views must be repudiated, even as new truth is discovered.
"God will give additional light, and old truths will be recovered and replaced in the framework of truth. RH Extra, Dec. 23, 1890.
"No matter by whom light is sent, we should open our hearts to receive it with the meekness of Christ. Many do not do this." GW 301.
"Even Seventh-day Adventists are in danger of closing their eyes to truth as it is in Jesus, because it contradicts something which they have taken for granted as truth, but which the Holy Spirit teaches is not truth. " TM 70, 71.
So Ellen White was very progressive, a cheerleader for theological study and discussion, even as she urges the SDA’s forward to a better understanding of the Word.
Listen again to Ellen White:
Whenever the people of God are growing in grace, they will be constantly obtaining a clearer understanding of His word. They will discern new light and beauty in its sacred truths. This has been true in the history of the church in all ages, and thus it will continue to the end.
But as real spiritual life declines, it has ever been the tendency to cease to advance in the knowledge of the truth. Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion.
The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God's people, should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error.
When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what...
Counsels to Writers and Editors; Ellen White, pages 33-42]
One way to know how Ellen White would view this present discussion about the NC Sabbath is to understand how she felt about the Pharisees in the Gospel Story. She did not like them, even as she recognized that those who were fighting against Waggoner’s Gospel were acting just like them.
"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God. For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people."
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 166.
Such a clue tells me that she would have no problem understanding that the SDA’s had embraced the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees, which is very different from the Gospel Sabbath that Jesus was promoting.
No wonder the White Estate suppressed this material from Ellen White. She was very hard on the leaders and pulled no punches:
"The character and prospects of the people of God are similar to those of the Jews, who could not enter in because of unbelief. Self-sufficiency, self-importance, and spiritual pride separated them from God, and He hid His face from them. . . .”
Few know that Ellen White condemned the SDA church for what they did at 1888, and she would have done the same again because of Glacier View. She did not have many good things to say about the SDA leaders who refused to embrace new truth at 1888.
Listen to more Ellen White:
"The light of truth is shining upon us as clearly as it shone upon the Jewish people, but the hearts of men are as hard and unimpressible as in the days of Christ, because they know not what they oppose.
Many who claim to be standing in the light are in darkness, and know it not. They have so enshrouded themselves in unbelief that they call darkness light, and light darkness. They are ignorant of that which they condemn and oppose.
But their ignorance is not such as God will excuse, for He has given them light, and they reject it. They have before them the example of the past, but they will not be warned, and unbelief is enclosing them in impenetrable darkness.
They refuse to accept the testimonies they ought to believe, and are ready to accept tidbits of gossip and testimonies of men, showing their credulousness and readiness to believe that which they want to believe."
Manuscript Releases Volume Eleven, pp. 286-287.
Just as the SDA’s “believed what they wanted to believe” in Battle Creek, so too today. They are just like the faithless and corrupt Jews that killed Christ. They are not being honest about the Gospel or the Word, much less church history.
Ellen White was an agent of change. She would condemn all those leaders that have run from this discussion, even as she would encourage all to study the issues and press on to find more truth.
The Gospel Sabbath is a breakthrough doctrine for SDA’s. Should they continue to embrace the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees, along with one false doctrine after another, they will be just as doomed, and for the very same reason.
The SDA’s must repent for their many errors and sins, especially for 1888 and Glacier View. They must stop their cultic double-talk and propaganda and stop refusing to embrace the clear and irrefutable teachings of Jesus and the apostles.
Let all SDA’s repent of their OC Sabbath and embrace only the Gospel teachings of Jesus.
Tom Norris for Sabbath Reform in the SDA church
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Ellen's writings are full of "I was shown", thus indicating that it came from God. She had an ultra lot to say how her flock was to "keep" the day. Now Tom comes along and expects all the flock to believe a diametrically opposed view of how the flock should be observant. Get real man, it will never happen, at least not until the hierarchy stops supporting her false teachings. If that ever happens the church will move away from the OC Sabbath teachings like the COG did.
Tom, you know darn well that an uncircumcised man could not participate in the OC rituals yet you try to put me down for telling it like it really was.
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No one is saying that Jesus is an Old Covenant figure. He ushers in the New Covenant, but both Tom and Don miss the point of:
Hebrews 9:16In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.
Any changes were effective with His death. That is the undeniable truth of this sacred text. Carry on your agendas, but the pure scripture is what I see scholars holding to, not special denominational interpretations.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-31-10 12:31 am)
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a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.
Yes. Also, the provisions of the will had to be stated before one's death to be included in the will. Thus, the provisions of Jesus' "will" had to be laid down before He died.
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a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.
Yes. Also, the provisions of the will had to be stated before one's death to be included in the will. Thus, the provisions of Jesus' "will" had to be laid down before He died.
So how can anyone ever interpret that we are still bound to parts of the covenant given only to the Jacob's offspring? Paul said those things are a shadow. He recognized the change, why can't Adventists? Oh, I know, ellen stands in your way. So much for saying you stand on scripture only.
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So how can anyone ever interpret that we are still bound to parts of the covenant given only to the Jacob's offspring? Paul said those things are a shadow. He recognized the change, why can't Adventists? Oh, I know, ellen stands in your way. So much for saying you stand on scripture only.
I have no problem recognizing a new set of administrative provisions. i.e. no levitical priest authority; no sacrifices; no going to the high priest to resolve differences; etc.
Even these shadow provisions teach important principles.
I do have a problem saying that the seventh commandment, Thou shalt not commit adultery, is a mere shadow.
My task, is to show how my faith conforms to scripture. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. To limit that to the off spring of Jacob is an interpretation. One I don't accept. Jesus tells me that the Sabbath is a gift. He shows me how to view it.
I read that the Creator blessed and sanctified the day. I praise Him for such wisdom and providence.
Yes, there are many Shadows. But the great reminder of Creation is not a mere shadow of things to come.
Before Jesus died and sealed His covenant with His blood, he stated how I should view the Seventh-day Sabbath. Whatever Paul says about "sabbath days" does not contradict the Covenant of Jesus sealed and finalized by His blood. Jesus never taught how to keep the feast days, those sabbaths mentioned in Leviticus 23 other than the Sabbath of the LORD.
I have recognized the change as spoken of in Acts 15, and in the writings of Paul. But I see no reason to give up God's wonderful Creation gift of a weekly rest day.
I maintain a strong respect for Ellen White, her life, ministry and writings. But, I do not refer to her to show why I believe what I believe. She is like my mother. I really appreciate how my mother taught me as a child. But, now I am a man. She has died. I may visit her graveside. I still enjoy reading her letters and browsing through the books in her library. But now, I must get on with living for Christ.
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Don said:
Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. To limit that to the off spring of Jacob is an interpretation. One I don't accept. Jesus tells me that the Sabbath is a gift. He shows me how to view it.
Now if under the New Covenant, not yet started, Christ knew that HE WAS THE SABBATH how is what he said inaccurate. He was for man. All the Ten Commandments are repeated as tenets of the New Covenant. To claim, as SDAs do, so if you don't have to keep the Sabbath, I can commit adultery is just simply illogical reasoning when committing adultery is addressed in the New Covenant, even expanded on, but the Sabbath meaning is stated as a shadow of Jesus, Col 2:16, 17. Under the New Covenant some think some days more holy than others, some see them all the same. A Congregation determines when they can all get together to worship God, including midweek services, some on Tuesday, some on Wednesday, and some on Thursday.
Some of what Christ said about the Sabbath was not new, but against what the leaders of the time had loaded onto the leader's rules, that were no longer meaningful. Not a new, Reformed Sabbath, but the way God meant it to be kept. The rules of the desert no longer made sense in Jerusalem. Example, do you believe that every menstruating female camped out in a backyard in Jerusalem of Christ's time. Doubt it.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-31-10 1:15 pm)
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Bob said: Tom, you know darn well that an uncircumcised man could not participate in the OC rituals yet you try to put me down for telling it like it really was.
Tom said: It is a fact that the uncircumcised Gentiles, called God fearers, did participate in the weekly Sabbath services of the Jews at their local synagogues. This phenomenon was routine and widespread all throughout the Roman Empire.
So I don’t know why you think otherwise, or why you are angry with me for telling you the facts?
Bob said: No one is saying that Jesus is an Old Covenant figure. He ushers in the New Covenant, but both Tom and Don miss the point of Heb 9: 16.
Tom said: Bob, this is what you have been saying. Glad to see you making some revisions.
The BIRTH of Jesus starts the New Covenant, and so too the public ministry of Christ. His NC teachings are for the church.
Bob said: Any changes were effective with His death.
Tom said: Do not confuse the CONTEXT of the Gospel, which is the Old Covenant, with the NC CONTENT of Jesus teachings. Just because the cross event did not ratify the NC until the end of Jesus ministry, it does not mean that his teachings were not NC. They were.
Bob said: Carry on your agendas, but the pure scripture is what I see scholars holding to, not special denominational interpretations.
Tom said: The only agenda here is to understand the NT correctly. Perhaps you need to study more and post less? This is not easy material for any SDA to understand.
The only scholar that I know, who understands the NC Sabbath correctly, is Dr. Ford. This is why it was such a mistake for the SDA’s to exile him.
His correct Gospel theology would have led them forward to embrace the 7th day Gospel Sabbath as well as the proper Judgment, which was not the IJ. He could have helped them leave their OC ways and move forward in the Adventist Apocalyptic.
Bob said: So how can anyone ever interpret that we are still bound to parts of the covenant given only to the Jacob's offspring?
Tom said: It is very difficult to correctly understand the difference between the Two Covenants. Luther understood this, and so too did all the Reformers. Thus all Protestants should understand how to separate the law from the Gospel, but few know such things today.
The SDA’s have self-destructed twice because they could not figure this out. Both 1888 and Glacier View took place because the SDA’s could not understand this critical distinction that is still a most problematic issue for them.
I can assure you that neither OC Sabbath keeping, Tithing, or Circumcision, can be practiced by the church. These OC doctrines cannot be mixed with the Gospel, and this is why the SDA’s must repent for their false, OC doctrines.
Bob said: Paul said those things are a shadow. He recognized the change, why can't Adventists? Oh, I know, Ellen stands in your way. So much for saying you stand on scripture only.
Tom said; Paul is not the head of the church, nor does his teachings, (as you perceive them) counter or refute the Sabbath teachings of Jesus.
Those that want to understand the Christian Faith, must first go to Christ for salvation and instruction. Not Paul, and certainly never Ellen White.
Jesus does not teach that the Gospel Sabbath is a Shadow, much less that he is that shadow! He does not use this term, even though the Sabbath is obviously a metaphor for rest and even Eternal Life.
In fact, there are only TWO uses of the word SHADOW in the NT, and they do not refer to Jesus or the Sabbath.
Matt. 4:16 “THE PEOPLE WHO WERE SITTING IN DARKNESS SAW A GREAT LIGHT, AND THOSE WHO WERE SITTING IN THE LAND AND SHADOW OF DEATH, UPON THEM A LIGHT DAWNED.”
Luke 1:79 TO SHINE UPON THOSE WHO SIT IN DARKNESS AND THE SHADOW OF DEATH, To guide our feet into the way of peace.”
It was the 1st century Jews who were said to be sitting in darkness so thick that is was called the “shadow of death.” Jesus should not be called our “shadow” but our Light. Jesus in never viewed in such a manner. In fact, he is viewed as the opposite of a dark shadow. He is the LIGHT of the world.
John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
John 1:5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not 1comprehend it.
John 1:6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
John 1:7 1He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
John 1:8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John 1:16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
Bob said: Now if under the New Covenant, not yet started, Christ knew that HE WAS THE SABBATH how is what he said inaccurate. He was for man.
Tom said: First, Jesus was born under the OC, but he and his teaching, represents the NC era. Jesus is a NT figure.
Second, Jesus never claimed to be the Sabbath as you stubbornly insist. He reformed the Sabbath for the Church in all four Gospels.
You really need to stop pretending that the NT supports your views about Jesus being the Sabbath or a shadow. Jesus does not, not, not teach that he is the Sabbath, nor that is a shadow.
Why do you refuse to accept the clear teachings of Jesus about the Gospel Sabbath?
Bob said: All the Ten Commandments are repeated as tenets of the New Covenant.
Tom said: Jesus’ REFORMED Sabbath represents the 4th Commandment.
Bob said: so if you don't have to keep the Sabbath, I can commit adultery is just simply illogical reasoning when committing adultery is addressed in the New Covenant, even expanded on, but the Sabbath meaning is stated as a shadow of Jesus, Col 2:16, 17.
Tom said: While no Christian should ever try to keep the OC Sabbath as the SDA’s teach, (which prohibits work), ALL Christians should acknowledge and embrace the REFORMED, NC teachings of Jesus about the Sabbath. His Sabbath allows and even encourages work and activity on the 7th day.
The doctrine of the NC Sabbath is found in the Gospels, not in Colossians.
Bob said: Under the New Covenant some think some days more holy than others, some see them all the same.
Tom said: In the NC, the Sabbath is still holy, but because all are now priests in the church, it is no longer a sin to work on the Sabbath. Keeping the Sabbath holy in the NC is not the same mind set or behavior as in the OC.
No doubt this is very confusing for the Jews and the SDA’s, even as it seems impossible to them.
Bob said: A Congregation determines when they can all get together to worship God, including midweek services, some on Tuesday, some on Wednesday, and some on Thursday.
Tom said: Christians can meet whenever they want, but the 7th day is still the Sabbath, regardless. (Not the OC Sabbath as the SDA’s teach, but the NC Sabbath as Jesus teaches.)
Moreover, Jesus clearly teaches, and so too does Paul, that the NC Sabbath is a time to preach the Gospel and worship with the Community. There has been no change in the teachings of Jesus about this as many assume.
Bob said: Some of what Christ said about the Sabbath was not new, but against what the leaders of the time had loaded onto the leader's rules, that were no longer meaningful.
Tom said: The clear prohibition against work was well known to the Jews. Jesus refuted this long held view and found a way to get around what had long been established law. What he was saying was so new and stunning that the leaders could hardly believe their ears.
A working Sabbath seemed absurd and impossible. How could such a thing be true? Many are obviously saying the same thing today. This is because the SDA’s think just like the OC Jews.
Bob said: Not a new, Reformed Sabbath, but the way God meant it to be kept.
Tom said: The “schoolmaster” or Tutor Sabbath was designed by God for the Jews. This OC Sabbath strictly prohibited work on the Sabbath on pain of DEATH.
Thus Sabbath breaking was a capitol offense. Except for the Levites, who had a special exception and were allowed and encouraged to work on the Sabbath.
In the NT, Jesus removes the OC Sabbath of the Jews and replaces it with a NC Sabbath, under his own name, that is to be viewed solely from the perspective of the Priests. Because all are Priests in the church, both male and female, all are allowed, even encouraged by Jesus, to work and do good on the Sabbath.
Gone is the prohibition against work. Gone is the OC, schoolmaster Sabbath. Gone are the guilt and the penalty of Sabbath breaking.
There is a new Sabbath for the church, just as Hebrews 4: 9 says. There is a NC, 7th day Sabbath for the Laodicean church to understand and embrace. So far they don’t understand much of anything.
Bob said: The rules of the desert no longer made sense in Jerusalem. Example, do you believe that every menstruating female camped out in a backyard in Jerusalem of Christ's time? Doubt it.
Tom said: The NC Sabbath replaces the OC Sabbath laws of the Jews. The Lord’s NC Sabbath has replaced the Sabbath of Moses, with its harsh penalty for Sabbath breaking.
This Gospel Sabbath lacks the rules and penalty that made the OC Sabbath so problematic and difficult. It is a Sabbath that comes with the true rest of the Gospel, regardless if one works on the 7th day.
Let all SDA’s understand that they have the WRONG Sabbath and the WRONG Gospel and the WRONG Judgment.
They will surely be doomed if they do not repent and reform.
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath
Last edited by tom_norris (02-01-10 5:36 pm)
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Tom said; Paul is not the head of the church, nor does his teachings, (as you perceive them) counter or refute the Sabbath teachings of Jesus.
Your respect should follow the sacred script, unless you feel Paul is a fraud. Notice his commission! Might the issue at hand be some of what God was going to "show" him? :
26:12 "On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
15"Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'
" 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you.
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Tom said:
"Ellen White was a legalist up until the 1888 debates. So her OC views about the Sabbath reflect these errors, even as she clearly writes after 1888 that many views must be repudiated, even as new truth is discovered."
Well Tom, what do you suggest should be done with all the confusing writings that were done prior to 1888 when Ellen White was a legalist following another Gospel, spirit and Jesus? Those volumes of errant literature have caused not a little distress among God's truth seeking people, even to the results of the dissolutions of marriages and the separations of children from parents, and even inheritances lost due to the corrupt and confusing untruths within them.
Perhaps an enormous book burning would be a good start? No wonder they burned down the Battle Creek publishing house. Most likely some conscientious souls, God's agents, working to prevent the spread of the error that was coming off of the presses therein.
Cadge
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Tom said:
"Ellen White was a legalist up until the 1888 debates. So her OC views about the Sabbath reflect these errors, even as she clearly writes after 1888 that many views must be repudiated, even as new truth is discovered."Well Tom, what do you suggest should be done with all the confusing writings that were done prior to 1888 when Ellen White was a legalist following another Gospel, spirit and Jesus? Those volumes of errant literature have caused not a little distress among God's truth seeking people, even to the results of the dissolutions of marriages and the separations of children from parents, and even inheritances lost due to the corrupt and confusing untruths within them.
Perhaps an enormous book burning would be a good start? No wonder they burned down the Battle Creek publishing house. Most likely some conscientious souls, God's agents, working to prevent the spread of the error that was coming off of the presses therein.
Cadge
Tom has an uphill battle trying to convince the brethren to join his "reformed" movement because of the "I was shown", "my angel" or "my guide" that preceded many of ellen's statements. Of course we who understand the big picture know that Ellen had the visions at the most convenient times which mesmerized the brethren and settled many debates.
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Bob 2 said: Your respect should follow the sacred script, unless you feel Paul is a fraud.
Tom said: Paul was not a fraud, but he started out as an OC minded enemy of the Gospel. He was a Pharisee, and he was positive that Jesus was a fraud, and so too anyone that followed this anti-law, Sabbath breaking, Gospel nonsense.
Of course he later changed this view, as you note, and was personally instructed by Jesus about the Gospel.
This is why he is so strong in the book of Galatians, even daring to condemn both Peter and James for their false Gospel.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Gal. 1:11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
Gal. 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal. 1:13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it;
Gal. 1:14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.
Gal. 1:15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
Gal. 1:16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
Gal. 1:17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.
Gal. 1:18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days.
There should be no doubt that when Paul visited the leaders, the now converted Pharisee observed the Sabbath with Peter at least twice during his 2 week visit to Jerusalem. Nor is there any doubt that they both understood and enjoyed the Gospel Sabbath.
These leaders were all Jews 100%, and you can be certain that they were worshiping, healing, teaching and preaching the Gospel on the 7th day. This would have been so natural for them that we can easily observe Paul embracing the Gospel Sabbath in the book of Acts.
Paul in no way refutes what Jesus teaches about the Reformed Sabbath. Nor does he endorse or practice an Old Covenant Sabbath or pretend there is a Sunday Lord’s Day.
Bob 2 said: Might the issue at hand be some of what God was going to "show" him?
Tom said: There is no possibility that Jesus taught the Gospel Sabbath to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but not to Paul. This would be absurd and impossible.
In fact, Paul refutes this notion that he held anything back about the Gospel. He states that he “fully” disclosed the Gospel. It was an “accomplished” fact.
Col. 1:25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
2Tim. 4:17 But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that through me the proclamation might be fully accomplished, and that all the Gentiles might hear; and I was rescued out of the lion’s mouth.
Moreover, Paul embraces the Gospel Sabbath and uses it correctly, without legalism, even as he publicly interacts with the Gentiles in the process, (which is unlawful OC Sabbath activity).
So this idea that Paul refutes the NC Sabbath of the four Gospels is utter nonsense and fiction. His behavior and his teachings fully support the reformed, Seventh-day Sabbath.
Sabbath Error:
Furthermore, the reason why Paul does not make a big deal out of Sabbath is because it is a mistake to do so.
The Gospel Sabbath is only for those that follow Christ and his Gospel; it is not to be used as if it were the obligation of the OC Moral law,- as the SDA’s have done.
No. The Gospel is the focus of the saved Community, not the law or the Sabbath. Thus the law and the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s must be replaced with a much different emphasis, (the teachings of Jesus), and a much better, NC Sabbath. One that allows for all manner of activity, in addition to the primary Community meeting which is so fundamental and defining for this unique weekly doctrine.
It was wrong for the SDA’s to turn the Sabbath into a litmus test for salvation. They have done this because they are Judaizers that do not know the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath.
It is wrong to use the Sabbath as a marketing device for proselytes as the SDA’s do. This is not the featured point of NT. Nor is this what Jesus or the apostles did. It is the Gospel, not the law, which must be the main point of the Christian Faith. The Gospel does not even fit with the OC Sabbath, nor can it ever be reconciled to such an outdated paradigm.
Those that have gone off on a tangent about the Law and the Sabbath do not understand either the Gospel or the 7th day NC Sabbath, which is a WORKING Sabbath for all Christians that embrace the Gospel teachings of Jesus.
SDA’s Wrong about the Sabbath
The Adventists are not only wrong about the Historic Pillars of the Advent Faith, and guilty about promoting dishonest church history; they also have the wrong Sabbath. This situation could not be more stunning or dramatic. It is a mind-boggling discovery that cannot be so easily ignored as the church has done with so many other doctrinal problems, like the IJ, tithe, or hermeneutics.
Millions of former SDA’s have long known that the church was wrong about the IJ, tithe, and Ellen White. But who ever dreamed that their Sabbath is also very incorrect and wrong? Or that they have actually embraced the same wrong Sabbath as that of Jesus’ Old Covenant enemies?
While the SDA’s are correct to declare the Sunday Lord’s day a fraud, so too is their own doctrine of the Sabbath. Who knew? This is a real shocker!
There is a weekly Sabbath for the church, and the SDA’s were supposed to recover it. In fact, they thought they had found it. But they have fallen on their faces, just like the Jews, and for the very same reason.
So here we sit. Do not make the additional mistake of trying to claim there is no Sabbath. That is not helpful or true. The Moral law is upheld 100% in the Gospels. There is a Sabbath for the church and it is found in all four Gospels.
The real Christian Sabbath is not the Point of the Gospel, nor is it to be marketed as if it were. Thus, the SDA’s need to find the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath, and forever remove themselves from the Old Covenant. Then they can move on to Rev 18 and the Loud Cry, even as they prepare to survive the time of trouble that is also associated with Rev 18.
(How ironic that when the last church finally understands the Gospel and the Judgment and the Sabbath, the end is not far behind. Thus Rev 18 quickly transitions from the world being informed and enlightened to utter destruction and the end of capitalism, including an abrupt halt to the consumer economy and all exports and imports. The passage even shows that the electrical grid shuts down.)
Paul is correct to have preached the Gospel to the Gentiles, even as he downplayed the Gospel Sabbath and repudiated the OC Sabbath. This was perfect truth and strategy. And so it will be today.
In addition, because the enemies of Paul were so pro Sabbath and pro law, (and pro circumcision), Paul did not dare fall into their trap and promote the law or the Sabbath. So he refused to promote what would help the Judaizers, even as he embraced the reformed Sabbath of Jesus.
Wrong Use of Sabbath
It is wrong to wave the Sabbath like a flag and pretend that this is a great law that must be obeyed. It is wrong for SDA’s to claim their Sabbath doctrine is better than all others, when it is just as worse, if not more so.
Furthermore, the NC Sabbath is not a day to pretend that the Pastor is a Priest or Levite and that the people are of an inferior religious class that must pay them tithe and obey them. All this SDA/OC nonsense must be condemned and removed.
What a pity that the SDA’s have come along and embraced the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath? No wonder they must repent as directed by Christ in the PAJ?
There is a Gospel Sabbath for the mature, repentant Laodicean church. At some point, those that claim to follow Christ, will open their eyes and understand.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Cadge said: Well Tom, what do you suggest should be done with all the confusing writings that were done prior to 1888 when Ellen White was a legalist, following another Gospel, spirit and Jesus?
Tom said: All the writings of Ellen White must be first understood in their true historical context. This has never been honestly done by the White Estate.
So the first order of the day is for the church to start telling the truth about Ellen White, and correct this massive fraud in the White Estate that is the root cause for all the confusion and false doctrine within Adventism.
There is plenty of information to clearly understand what Ellen White is saying and what she is not, as well as how she changed views and why. The whole story of Ellen White’s life is in that vault, complete with daily diaries and letters so that one can track her thoughts and activities in detail.
The problem is that the church has not told the truth about her writings or their contents. The work of the White Estate is so corrupted as to be worse than worthless. There must be a complete overhaul in the White Estate, and I am prepared to get a court order if necessary to stop this ongoing criminal activity.
Cadge said: Those volumes of errant literature have caused not a little distress among God's truth seeking people, even to the results of the dissolutions of marriages and the separations of children from parents, and even inheritances lost due to the corrupt and confusing untruths within them.
Tom said: The White Estate is a wicked, cultic operation that has misled millions of good and trusting people. The damage that Arthur White has inflicted on the Advent Movement is almost beyond comprehension. But he had lots of company as well, like Froom and Bill Johnsson.
Unless the White Estate confesses their long running crime, and corrects the record, the authorities will have to be brought in and the White Estate will be shut down until it can be cleaned up and run in an honest fashion, as Ellen White demanded.
After all these years of deception and double-talk, I don’t think the church leaders will ever tell the truth unless they are forced. So be it.
At some point, legal action will be taken, in both the Civil and Criminal courts, and then the SDA leaders will wish they had voluntarily stopped this wicked crime when they had the opportunity to do so many years ago. Now they have just compounded the problem with another generation of cover up and fraud. Silly Adventists.
At some point, the White Estate will face Motions to install a trustee, conduct an investigation, and take other actions to protect the public from this long running publishing fraud that the church leaders refuse to stop.
The White Estate is a criminal enterprise that has misrepresented Ellen White and broken their trust to her and the public. The real Ellen White is very different from how the church has portrayed her. No one should trust much of anything they have heard about Ellen White; the chances are it is very wrong and misleading.
Cadge said: Perhaps an enormous book burning would be a good start? No wonder they burned down the Battle Creek publishing house. Most likely some conscientious souls, God's agents, working to prevent the spread of the error that was coming off of the presses therein.
Tom said; Battle Creek had problems with arson, and there is little doubt that arson was involved with all of the famous fires that melted the San, Review, and later, the great SDA Tabernacle.
As for what to do with Ellen White’s books?
Every book that has even been published by the White Estate is going to have to be revised and corrected. It is also going to take a number of new books to tell the true story and correct the manipulated version of Ellen White that is in the public domain.
Books will have to be written that not only confess this massive fraud but to also correct the record and honestly explain what Ellen White believed and what she did not. Then all will see that Glacier View was a “set up” by the leaders. It was based on the false testimony of Ellen White, who it turns out, does not support the IJ as a pillar nor much of anything that Traditional Adventism embraces.
This is why an honest trustee from outside the denomination must be brought into this matter, and why the present board members must be removed.
Serious, honest scholars will have to take over the board and put a stop to this massive, ongoing, and outrageous fraud that has been perpetrated on the Adventist Community.
You can believe that Ellen White did not want her writings to be suppressed or her views to be grossly distorted. She wants the church to understand what happened in 1888. She wants the church to understand what she is saying, not what Arthur White wanted her to say. Ellen White would strongly condemn Arthur White for what he has done and so too should we all. The man was a criminal.
But Ellen White is going to have the last laugh. She is much smarter than people think. Her writings have survived and she has a very different story to tell than what the White Estate has promoted all these years. It is much better from what all SDA’s have been taught.
Bob said: Tom has an uphill battle trying to convince the brethren to join his "reformed" movement because of the "I was shown", "my angel" or "my guide" that preceded many of ellen's statements.
Tom said: The Gospel always has an uphill battle. Truth is always being suppressed and slandered. So reform is never easy or smooth. There are too many vested interests in the way. The very fact that Adventist Reform calls for the abolition of tithe and the re-organization of the church is enough for the evil and greedy leaders to turn their backs and plug their ears.
The SDA leaders like the false system they have developed for themselves, and they have no plans to change what they perceive is working for them. In other words, who cares about truth or the Gospel when your paycheck is on the line? A wolf will take the money every time, even as they pretend truth is whatever they want it to be.
It is money, power, and ego that drive the leaders further into perdition. Ellen White is just an excuse that they invented to support their false doctrines. This is why they had to hide so much of what she said. Why? Because it did not support what they wanted to promote.
So they manipulated Ellen White to say what they wanted, even though it was not true and grossly misrepresented her views. The truth about Ellen White condemns the White Estate, even as it proves she did NOT support Traditional Adventism as all SDA’s have been told by their lying leaders.
The SDA church has been so outrageously dishonest about Ellen White, for so many generations, that they don’t know how to tell the truth, much less confess what they have done. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise that does not reflect Ellen White’s real views, much less honest church history. Beware.
So it’s not really about Ellen White, but about her evil and lying handlers. The extent of the White Estates fraud is mind-boggling. Arthur White is the SDA version of Bernie Madoff, and it is only a matter of time before the authorities shut down the White Estate for this massive publishing fraud, which is a living crime scene.
Ellen White will emerge vindicated, but not Uriah Smith or the White Estate, Review, or the GC. All will come to know that Ellen White did not endorse Traditional Adventism, or what happened at Glacier View. She condemns the SDA leaders for what they have done, even as she still calls for them to repent about 1888 and a long list of myths, errors, and false doctrines.
Bob said: Of course we who understand the big picture know that Ellen had the visions at the most convenient times which mesmerized the brethren and settled many debates.
Tom said: The big picture is this: the Adventist Community does not know or understand the real Ellen White, or what she believed about the law or the Gospel, as well as about the IJ, tithe, and eschatology. The White Estate has misled all about Ellen White and church history and until this crime is corrected, no one should presume to criticize things they know so little about.
The Pioneers were Protestant. They had a correct hermeneutic that subordinated Ellen White’s visions to the Bible. Thus Ellen White never had any doctrinal authority as the church later claimed for her. The Takoma Park apologists have deceived the Adventist Community and ruined Ellen White’s name in the process.
The White Estate is very wrong to teach that Ellen White ever had doctrinal authority. It was never true. The church leaders were even more wrong to pretend she supported Glacier View or the 27 Fundamentals that resulted from that farce.
Ellen White refutes how the White Estate has portrayed her and so too must everyone else. No one should be fooled by this slight of hand by these agents of disinformation. They created a false view of Ellen White for the purpose of controlling their critics and manipulating the members. And now they have been caught for all to see.
Condemn the White Estate, but not Ellen White.
THIS is the big picture!
Ellen White was an apocalyptic reformer. She was a Protestant that admired the Reformation and embraced the Advent Movement, even as she tried to move it forward.
You can be sure that she wants truthful and honest reform within the SDA church. There should be no doubt that she wants the White Estate cleaned up and her record corrected. She would also repudiate Glacier View, embrace the Gospel Sabbath, and demand re-organization.
In conclusion, let the Adventist Community study the Gospel Sabbath and understand that their leaders are incompetent for embracing a false Gospel and the wrong Sabbath.
Let all demand the church leaders tell the truth about theology and church history. Let meaningful reform be the result.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath
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Tom said:
So they manipulated Ellen White to say what they wanted, even though it was not true and grossly misrepresented her views. The truth about Ellen White condemns the White Estate, even as it proves she did NOT support Traditional Adventism as all SDA’s have been told by their lying leaders.
So all the "I was showns" were fraud, interesting. This is something we both agree is true.
Condemn the White Estate, but not Ellen White.
So the White Estate (and vinegar) had ellen so mesmerized she did everything they demanded. So much for her having a strong will. She was merely a puppet that acted when the chief bullfrog belched.
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Tom, whenever I read your stuff, I come away with the Gospel + feeling. You still cling to the Sabbath when the Sabbath is the Gospel, it is Jesus himself that gives the true rest. You refuse to see the discontinuity that happened at the cross. Yes, a remnant of the Jews will be saved, but not because of the OC but because they like anyone else accepts Christ as Savior. Your claim that Christ just manipulated how to keep the Sabbath is missing the best part, He is the Sabbath, because at any moment I can kneel and connect with Him and my sin can be forgiven and a rest can come over my soul.
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Bob said: So the White Estate (and vinegar) had ellen so mesmerized she did everything they demanded.
Tom said: This is the wrong thread for an Ellen White discussion.
Ellen White lived a long time. Thus, each of her stages of life must be looked at within the proper historical context.
There was never a time when Ellen White had any administrative or doctrinal power or a time when the leaders “did everything she demanded.” In fact, they often did they opposite of what she desired.
While the White Estate teaches she had all manner of power and authority, including doctrinal authority, this was NEVER true. The White Estate has so embellished and distorted Ellen White that they have created a fictional person that never really existed.
To do this they had to hide thousands of her documents and carefully misinterpret thousands more in order to produce the story they wanted. Over a period of many years, they crafted a false view of church history that would ruin the reputation of Ellen White and divide the church.
Mission accomplished.
The White Estate succeeded in creating a mythical version of Ellen White that seemed so real and so fully documented that most all were taken in by this dishonest and illegal scheme. Many never dreamed that these Ellen White books that were routinely produced by the White Estate were purposefully full of fraudulent and false manipulations.
Until James White died in 1881, Ellen White had the protection and power afforded her by him, the unquestioned leader of the SDA’s. Aside from him, she had little, if any power. Without him, she would have remained unknown.
In fact, after he died, she had little role in the church except as a pastoral writer. But in 1887 she protested how Waggoner was being treated, and then decided to embark on a mission to bring much needed Gospel Reform to the SDA’s. It was a decision that would forever alter the SDA landscape and reduce much of Ellen White’s writings to myth.
Starting with the 1888 debates, most all the leaders refuted her views, and thus Gospel Reform failed and both Waggoner and Ellen White were exiled in 1891, far away from Battle Creek. Within a dozen years, the church would collapse into an angry schism that still rages today.
So forget the many myths you have heard about Ellen White. It is time to think straight about church history. And the facts are available for any that want to know the truth.
The fraud in the White Estate took place after Ellen White died, and after the church acquired all her writings and moved them to Takoma Park in the late 1930’s. This is when the young Arthur White was placed in charge of the White Estate. He had the perfect name to promote the late Ellen White, even as it was his mission to make her famous, revered, and authoritative.
Although Arthur White started out as a pawn of the GC, instructed to suppress the 1888 debates, he eventually mastered this massive fraud by developing an alternative story that became part of Traditional Adventism.
As the decades passed, he gained more power and control for Ellen White and the Estate as he defined every detail of SDA theology and history through the manipulated writings of his grandmother. Arthur White essentially became a very powerful clone or avatar of Ellen White. He was treated with reverence and awe, even as few doubted anything that the White Estate published in her name.
By the end of his long 40-year career, Arthur White had succeeded in perpetrating a massive and destructive fraud on the church that was mind-boggling in scope and arrogance. He had dishonestly convinced millions that Ellen White embraced and supported Traditional Adventism, including the mythical position that she viewed the IJ as a pillar from the 1st Angels Message, when this was never true. Thus the Ellen White of the White Estate has turned out to a manipulated myth, a deliberate fraud that supported the dishonest conservatives.
Glacier View represented the crowning achievement of Arthur White’s wicked fraud that was put in place by AG Daniels. But it was all a lie. Ellen White does not support TA, or Glacier View, or even tithe. Nor did she ever approve that her writings should be hidden and manipulated to say the opposite of what she meant.
So stop taking cheap shots at Ellen White. Rather, make real complaints to the White Estate. They are the problem, they are the criminals, and they have been the problem for generations.
Bob said: So much for her having a strong will. She was merely a puppet that acted when the chief bullfrog belched.
Tom said: If Ellen White were ever a “puppet”, it would have been to her husband, James. He was totally in charge of her writings, even as he was her sole editor, publisher, and manager.
After he died in 1881. She became very independent. She was no ones puppet then, as they all found out the hard way. Nor is she today. In spite of what the White Estate has done.
Ellen White was obsessed about preparing the church for the 2nd Coming. She was focused on pushing the eschatology of the Adventists forward, to the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.
Too bad that the White Estate has been so dishonest and incompetent that few understand the historic Ellen White or her views about the Three Angels Messages.
Bob 2 said: Tom, whenever I read your stuff, I come away with the Gospel + feeling. You still cling to the Sabbath when the Sabbath is the Gospel; it is Jesus himself that gives the true rest.
Tom said: You have failed to show that Jesus claims to be the Sabbath or that the Sabbath is the Gospel. Jesus is a very special man, but not a Day. Nor is the Gospel to be defined as a Day.
Moreover, it is clear that Jesus does teach a NC Sabbath in all four Gospels. Thus we can easily see the OC Sabbath clashing with the NC that Jesus teaches. Why do you deny the obvious?
It could be that any mention of the Sabbath conjures up the Old Covenant Sabbath of the SDA’, with its’ many rules, regulations, and guilt. But this is not the same doctrine as Jesus teaches or as I am advocating.
I think you are fighting against something that you do not understand?
Bob 2 said: You refuse to see the discontinuity that happened at the cross.
Tom said: You refuse to read the Gospels correctly and admit that Jesus was reforming the Sabbath for the Church.
Bob 2 said: Yes, a remnant of the Jews will be saved, but not because of the OC but because they like anyone else accepts Christ as Savior.
Tom said: I never said that any kind of Sabbath observance is salvific. Only the Gospel can save anyone. But that does not mean there is not a Gospel Sabbath for the church. There is a Gospel, as well as a Gospel Sabbath. At some point this fact will become clear, even as it exposes many false Gospels and Sabbaths.
Bob 2 said: Your claim that Christ just manipulated how to keep the Sabbath is missing the best part, He is the Sabbath, because at any moment I can kneel and connect with Him and my sin can be forgiven and a rest can come over my soul.
Tom said: Jesus repudiated the OC, non-working Sabbath of the Jews in all four Gospels. He also defined and taught a NC version of the Sabbath that was very new and shocking. THIS is the Sabbath for the Church.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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So now we have the true story Bob-2. Jesus isn't our Rest, the Sabbath is reformed by Jesus so that all may do most anything, Ellen wasn't a leader in the movement and she didn't have any control over what took place or over the little flock. OY
Now to something completely new to me. SDAs and Jews are "keeping" the wrong day. Yes, the Lunar calender was used by the nation of Israel and the cycle started anew every full moon.
A rather large movement that has formed out of the SDAs is World's Last Chance. Yep, they are using the Lunar calender which would make the Sabbath come on the 8th day after the full moon appears and then the 15 day, 22 day and the 29 day. The new moon would appear after that and the cycle would begin again thus throwing the cycle off as occurring on the same day each week. In other word the Israelite couldn't depend on Gregorian calender cycle for the Sabbath to fall on Saturday. Sabbath could come on any day. The coming of the new moon does not fit the weekly Gregorian cycle. This site will explain many times better than I could ever do. www.worldslastchance.com
It really makes sense. Never could the Israelites be off cycle no matter what happened to them or where they were on the face of the Earth. When the New moon appeared they would observe the new moon Sabbath and start counting seven days until the next Sabbath etc.
This is going to really play havoc with the observers work pattern. Will employers grant their Sabbath privilege when it falls maybe on Monday or any working day of the week? Well if they insist they are under the law of Moses then they will have to bite the bullet. Or maybe they will finally recognize Tom's reformed sabbath and combine the two. Then they could work play and go to church on the same day thus observing the Holy day the way Tom says Jesus intends it to be.
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Bob said: So now we have the true story Bob-2.
Tom said: Today, the Gospel Story is not correctly understood by the church. So the “true story” is not as clear as you claim.
However, there should be no doubt that there is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the Church. The NT is clear on this point.
Too bad that not one organized church today understands the Sabbath doctrine correctly. And the SDA’s are the worst offenders. They have embraced the Sabbath of those that hated the Gospel and killed Christ.
How wretched and stupid is that?
After all these years, it is amazing that the NC Sabbath was not better understood, especially by the SDA’s. This was their greatest doctrine. How could they be so wrong, for so long?
Answer: Because they officially rejected the Gospel twice. Once in 1888, and again in 1980. Without the Gospel, no one will understand the NC Sabbath.
But thanks to Dr. Ford, The Gospel Sabbath is finally emerging for all to see. He is the leading proponent of this surprising doctrine that is unlike anything that ANY church teaches today. Including the SDA’s, with their OC Sabbath.
Bob said: Jesus isn't our Rest, the Sabbath is reformed by Jesus so that all may do most anything,
Tom said: Jesus is our Righteousness and salvation, as well as the Christian’s Teacher and High Priest. He is our Peace even as he gives us spiritual rest, as well as his Spirit. But he is not the Sabbath. Nor did he teach that there is no longer a Sabbath for the church.
The NC Sabbath that Jesus promotes in all four Gospels features weekly community worship and the preaching of the Gospel. It also includes all kinds of good deeds, even work.
There are very few rules associated with this new Gospel Sabbath, which is why the NT does not speak about “Sabbath breaking” as a sin. It is no longer a sin to work on the Sabbath, as the SDA’s, and others, teach.
(The Sunday keepers have also embraced this error. This is why they promoted Sunday blue laws. They too thought it was a sin to work on the Sunday Sabbath.)
The Gospel Sabbath is ONLY for those that embrace the Gospel correctly. It does not apply to anyone else, nor can a non-believer embrace the reformed Sabbath, much less understand it.
While the Sunday keepers are wrong, because of the day AND the way they view the Sabbath. The SDA’s got the right day, but also, the wrong doctrine! They too have bungled the Gospel Sabbath.
This is the NEWS FLASH that you need to understand.
The SDA’s have the wrong Sabbath, just like all those that embrace Sunday. This is why the LM condemns the last church so profoundly and totally. They have ALL embraced a false Gospel and, thus their false versions of the Sabbath stands out like so many confused monuments to their spiritual blindness and doctrinal incompetence.
But guess what? The SDA Pioneers were correct to promote the 7th day for the NC Sabbath, instead of Sunday, and correct again to teach that this doctrine would play are role in the final Gospel proclamation of Rev 18.
Too bad they became confused and rejected the Gospel, embracing the OC Sabbath of the Jews instead of the reformed Sabbath in the Gospels. This was a great mistake that needs to be corrected. Only the reformed, active Sabbath of Jesus will be part of the final Gospel proclamation.
The SDA’s must deal with the Sabbath:
Although the SDA’s have turned stonewalling into an art form, they cannot so easily avoid dealing with the Sabbath. While they simply refuse to discuss the doctrine of tithe or the IJ, declaring that these topics are beyond question or debate, they cannot so easily dismiss discussion about the Sabbath. This is the primary doctrine they are supposed to promote to everyone. So how can they not discuss it?
Ha! Let all SDA’s discuss the doctrine of the Sabbath and understand that they have made a horrible error for all to see. Let them face up to this embarrassing situation and admit that they have misunderstood both the Gospel and the NC Sabbath.
The SDA’s must repent and embrace the correct Gospel and the correct Sabbath. They must repudiate the OC Sabbath, and many other false doctrines, like tithe and the IJ, and apologize to Dr. Ford for Glacier View.
Bob said: Ellen wasn't a leader in the movement and she didn't have any control over what took place or over the little flock. OY!
Tom said: James White was the “leader” of the Battle Creek SDA’s, and Uriah Smith was the #2 man. Both of these men had far more influence and power over the Denomination than did Ellen White.
After James died, Ellen White found herself with almost no power. Then, she lost whatever status she had the moment she stepped forward to defend Gospel Reform in 1888. Then Smith and Company turned against her. Her exile from Battle Creek proved she was just a pawn for the leaders to move out of the way.
So this idea, from the White Estate, that Ellen White was the “leader” of the SDA’s is laughable propaganda and fiction. It never happened. Not even close. Not when James White was alive and not after.
Women could not even vote during this time period. It was a man’s world, and Ellen White was no exception. James White was in full and complete charge of the church, as well as his wife. There was never a time when Ellen White had any control of the church whatsoever. Her name was not on any of the corporate documents, nor did she have any votes on such official matters.
Moreover, no pastor was ever allowed to quote from her writing when in the pulpit, nor were her writings ever part of the SS lessons. This idea that Ellen White was in control of doctrine or anything else in Battle Creek is mythical and wrong.
The White Estate has so misrepresented the facts about Ellen White and the history of Battle Creek that they should be shut down until they can learn to tell the truth.
Bob said: Now to something completely new to me. SDA’s and Jews are "keeping" the wrong day. Yes, the Lunar calender was used by the nation of Israel and the cycle started anew every full moon.
Tom said: How “new” can this be for you? You posted this link back in March 2007?
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1174111125
http://www.remnantofgod.org/worldslastchance.htm
So this is not new, but it is nonsense.
I suggest you stop chasing diversions and try to comprehend the ramifications of the Gospel Sabbath under discussion. It is not often that a new, paradigm-changing doctrine emerges for all to see.
The SDA Community needs to repent for the OC Sabbath, as well as their rejection of the Gospel in 1888 and 1980.
The Adventists need to embrace the Gospel Sabbath, and get busy trying to better understand the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. At this point they have most everything wrong, as do all the rest of the Laodiceans.
Tom Norris for genuine Sabbath Reform
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Now let me get this clear:
1. Tom, you realize that not one church has the Sabbath doctrine the way you interpret it. You are like John the Baptist, only self-appointed, crying in the wilderness for a non-salvific point which you previous admitted was non-salvific, but you rant and rail against the whole lot of Christiandom because they don't get it. If it's not salvific, let's move on!!!
2, Then, news flash, Tom Norris, has been self-appointed or appointed by Dexter to finish the Reformation for Luther.
Wonders never cease!!!!
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Bob 2 said: Tom, you realize that not one church has the Sabbath doctrine the way you interpret it.
Tom said; Yes. I am the one that informed you of this fact. So of course I “realize” it.
But I can’t take credit for this discovery. It is Dr. Ford that gets the credit for this doctrinal breakthrough that is based on the historical teaching of the apostolic church.
Moreover, there are others, like Bates, Andrews, Waggoner, Jones, and Ellen White, that have also paved the way for the full and complete articulation of the Sabbath doctrine.
It has taken a lot of people, many years, to keep the Gospel and the Sabbath alive within the Adventist Community. Too bad that the majority suppressed the Gospel and promoted the wrong, OC Sabbath as if it were truth, when it is not.
But regardless, the true Sabbath doctrine has been located and found for all to see.
So I am happy to do my part, and stand in line with many others, even though it means that Uriah Smith and Arthur White are going to be exposed as enemies of the Gospel and of the Three Angels Messages.
There is only one Gospel and one NC Sabbath for the church. At the end of time, as knowledge is increased, the Gospel will become better understood, and so too the NC, 7th day Sabbath.
Thus, the emergence of the Reformed Sabbath is a sign that Gospel knowledge is increasing and that the Advent Movement is about to move forward.
I suggest that you and all others get over your understandable shock and pay close attention.
Bob 2 said: You are like John the Baptist, only self-appointed, crying in the wilderness for a non-salvific point which you previous admitted was non-salvific, but you rant and rail against the whole lot of Christendom because they don't get it. If it's not salvific, let's move on!!!
Tom said: The SDA’s claimed to be like John the B. This is how they described themselves, preparing the way for the final proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus, which alone is salvific.
Considering the fact that that John B preached a law based Gospel, one that turned out to be very wrong, actually fits well with the OC minded SDA’s.
In hindsight, the SDA’s had things wrong just like he did. But without his reforming voice, without his correct rebellion against the wicked religious leaders in Jerusalem, the Way would not have been prepared for the stunning teachings of Jesus about the Gospel and the NC Sabbath. Law paves the way for the Gospel, and so too does error.
So even though there was error in his message, it was still important and necessary. The same goes for the SDA’s. They have done a necessary work to promote the law, even though they have made a mess of things in the process.
The 3rd Angels Message is also transitional; it is a parallel message of John the B. The SDA’s were indeed laying the groundwork for the genuine Gospel and Reformed Sabbath of Christ. But like the Jews, they repudiated the Gospel and embraced the OC Sabbath.
At this point, they still do not understand their OC error or their future NC role, which will emerge only in the next Adventist Message.
Unlike John the B, whose message was eclipsed by the Gospel, the SDA’s have refused to allow the progression of truth to take place as designed. They are fighting the Gospel in an attempt to promote the moral law and the OC Sabbath above all else. This is a big mistake, one that JTB did not make.
John 3:25 Therefore there arose a discussion on the part of John’s disciples with a Jew about purification.
John 3:26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him.”
John 3:27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.
John 3:28 “You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent ahead of Him.’
John 3:29 “He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full.
John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease.
The SDA’s need to understand that they have embraced the Gospel of John the B, and not that of Jesus or Paul. Their law-based gospel must give way to the genuine doctrine, which includes the reformed Sabbath of the Gospels.
The SDA’s have made the same mistakes as the Jews and others. But now it is time to make the necessary corrections, and move forward. It is time for the Advent Movement to grow up and condemn their wicked leaders that have led them into a false path.
Apollos is like the SDA’s.
See how Apollos, a Jew, embraced Jesus as the Messiah, but at the same time, he viewed the Gospel as obedience to the law. He was perhaps one of the first SDA’s and Judaizers.
Apollos was confused because he was following the outdated, OC theology of John the B. He “believed through law” and not grace, and thus he did not fully understand the NC Gospel of Jesus and Paul. He had to be educated and brought up to speed by others.
Acts 18:24 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures.
Acts 18:25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John;
Acts 18:26 and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
Acts 18:27 And when he wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace,
Acts 18:28 for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
Here was a great preacher in the apostolic church who only had 50% of the Gospel correct. But Paul’s disciples corrected him, and he accepted their instruction. Apollos now understood that “grace” is not law.
Thus the SDA’s should see themselves in this passage. They are wrong like Apollos. Even as they need to listen to those, like Dr. Ford, who tried to help them better understand the Gospel.
The account continues, with more OC Christians being discovered:
Acts 19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
Acts 19:2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
Acts 19:3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Acts 19:4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
So there were many in the NT that had a false view of the Gospel. They viewed John the B teaching as fully correct, when it was not. This is very similar to the SDA’s today. Their view of salvation is based on the OC law, not grace. They think that the object of the Spirit is to empower obedience to the law. But this is not close to being correct.
The SDA’s have the wrong message, just like John the B and Apollos. They are Judaizers. They incorrectly teach that obedience is the method to pass the judgment.
Mark 1:2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;
Mark 1:3 THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
‘MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.’”
Mark 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:5 And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
Matt. 3:10 “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
John the B preached an incomplete and incorrect Gospel. He demanded confession of sin and obedience as well as good works to pass the Judgment. But this is not the Gospel. His theology was transitional, preparing the way for the amazing teachings of the Gospel.
The SDA’s have embraced the same incorrect, transitional theology of JB and Apollos. This is what the 3rd Angels Message represents. But this is the wrong message. It is time for the SDA’s to move forward into the full Gospel of Jesus and Paul and repent for what they have done.
Many SDA’s think that the 3rd Angels Message is all there is. But there was always another Adventist Message that was to eclipse the 3rd Angels Message. Thus the Adventist Movement was to move forward to the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18 to complete their work. This is what must happen.
Too bad they became stuck with an outdated and wrong message that the leaders forced on everyone at Glacier View. It will be their destruction if they do not soon repent and move forward to the Gospel.
Unless the SDA’s repent for their legalism and embrace the Gospel instruction of Dr. Ford, they are doomed and damned. Playing the role of John the B any longer will only result in the loss of ones head and the end of their confused mission.
Following John’s law based Gospel will destroy the Advent Movement and kill it. This is what has been happening for years and it is time to stop the madness. This is no time for a confused and partial Gospel. It is time for the full and complete Gospel, which is accompanied by the Reformed Sabbath of Christ.
No one acts alone:
While you seem to think I am acting alone, and making things up along the way, this is not what is taking place. I am just reacting to the facts and the evidence. It is Jesus that claims the Laodicean Church is blind to the Gospel, and thus he rants against them in the PAJ, which is the LM.
Don’t blame me for pointing out such facts.
The Gospel and the Sabbath are interrelated. The fact that every church on the planet has the wrong Sabbath is because they also have the wrong Gospel. The Sabbath shows how closely one pays attention to the Gospel teachings of Jesus, and at this point, none have followed him as they claim. NONE!
Rom. 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom. 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
The fact that every church embraces a weekly Sabbath shows that they are trying to follow the NT, even though they do not have it fully correct. However, those that think there is no Sabbath for the church, (like you Bob), are not only wrong, they are not even Christian.
So the doctrine of the Sabbath, which is a very public, weekly, practice of every church, is important to the extent it reflects how one defines the Gospel and understands the Word. A false Sabbath underscores a false Gospel.
As one surveys the “wretched” theology of Laodicea, it becomes apparent that every denomination is blind and wrong about the Gospel and the Sabbath, as well as eschatology and most everything else.
No wonder Jesus is upset with the last church? Everyone should also share his disgust about all this false and wretched doctrine that spews forth from every pulpit in the land, including the double-talking, tithe paying, Old Covenant minded SDA’s.
The Laodicean church is caught in a great crisis of delusion and sin. They are so wrong about so much that it boggles the mind. The Sabbath is exhibit number one. Every church in the land has a false Sabbath to accompany the rest of their worthless and blasphemous teachings.
It is time to correct the Gospel and the Sabbath, as well as all other doctrines. It is time to stop the gross deception from the incompetent religious leaders. Enough is enough.
Bob 2 said: Then, news flash, Tom Norris, has been self-appointed or appointed by Dexter to finish the Reformation for Luther.
Tom said: Those that understand the Gospel correctly are never self-appointed.
John 3:27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.
Moreover, those that understand have a responsibility and obligation to help those that don’t.
Luke 12:48 everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
1Cor. 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach the gospel.
I suggest that you take advantage of those that are trying to help you. But alas, many are too stubborn and foolish to be corrected. So be it. Eternal Life is not for them.
Bob 2 said: Wonders never cease!!!!
Tom said: The discovery and articulation of the Reformed, Gospel Sabbath is an amazing and stunning development for the SDA’s. And so too is the discovery that the doctrine of tithe is a false and forbidden practice in the church, and so too the hierarchical organization system that the SDA’s have set up.
So there are many stunning facts emerging from this discussion, including the disclosure of a long running fraud in the White Estate that the church has been trying to cover up for decades.
It turns out that Ellen White does not support Traditional Adventism, or Glacier View, or the IJ, as the leaders claimed all these years. They were just plain lying, as well as hiding thousands of documents in the process!
Who would have thought that White Estate was such a corrupt and evil enterprise all these years? Or that the church leaders would be so bold and arrogant as to try and hide the facts about this fraud after was discovered in 1979? Amazing! It is almost beyond belief.
It is also stunning to find out that abstinence is a doctrine from the Koran, and that the church has been correctly drinking real wine for the Lord’s Supper from the beginning of the apostolic age.
It is also surprising to know that Ellen White routinely drank wine for medicinal purposes. While everyone in Battle Creek knew this fact, the White Estate covered it up and pretended she would never do such a thing.
The SDA’s have made fools of themselves by their dishonest and incompetent teaching that wine in the Bible is grape juice. They are flat out wrong as well as very stupid. What is the point of having an educational system, if all one learns is cultic myth and fiction?
So there is a long list of stunning errors that must be repented of, even as the necessary corrections are emerging for all to see. It is truly amazing. I agree.
Today, the need for Adventist Reform is overwhelming and clear. The list of errors promoted by the SDA’s is as long as it is disgusting. This is why there must be a reformation within the Adventist Community. This is why the status quo cannot stand, nor will it.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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The real issue, I've come to find, is the Continuity or Discontinuity of the two Covenants at the Cross. Answer that one RIGHT, Tom, and you could save a lot of long posts.
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The real issue, I've come to find, is the Continuity or Discontinuity of the two Covenants at the Cross. Answer that one RIGHT, Tom, and you could save a lot of long posts.
I know what you are saying Bob, but maybe it would sound better if you would have said: is the Continuity or Discontinuity of the OLD COVENANT at the Cross.
We know from the writings of Paul that the old law (Torah) only lived until the Seed came. Gal. 3 Jesus ushered in the New and BETTER covenant.
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
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Bob_2 said: The real issue, I've come to find, is the Continuity or Discontinuity of the two Covenants at the Cross. Answer that one RIGHT, Tom, and you could save a lot of long posts.
I say: While it is quite fitting that you qualified that statement with “I’ve come to find” (since you’ve made it clear that you’re quite confused on “the real issue”), it is nonetheless wrong to claim that the issue here is regarding the Covenants.
The “real issue” here, or at least as it is in your case, is the fact that you deny the Lordship of Christ on His Sabbath reforms and dare to suggest He is not qualified to make the necessary New Covenant changes to this doctrine. This is the REAL ISSUE, and one, incidentally, you have yet to “come to find”.
Moreover, the fact that you are so unclear about what the Old Covenant is, makes it highly doubtful that you are even clear on what the New Covenant is; so how would you know anything about distinguishing between “Continuity or Discontinuity” of either?
Bob said: I know what you are saying Bob, but maybe it would sound better if you would have said: is the Continuity or Discontinuity of the OLD COVENANT at the Cross.
We know from the writings of Paul that the old law (Torah) only lived until the Seed came. Gal. 3 Jesus ushered in the New and BETTER covenant.
Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
I say: So you want to make your position on this discussion a matter of sounding “better” rather than of acknowledging the Lordship of Christ over His Reformed New Covenant Sabbath? This is hardly a wise move.
Moreover, it seems you are not paying much attention to this discussion either. One of the key points of this discussion IS that the Old Covenant Sabbath has ended and replaced by the New Covenant Reformed Sabbath. How is it you missed this?
So whatever point it is you were trying to make is nullified, even as it highlights your need to pay attention.
Well did the apostle warn about the generation who would no longer endure sound doctrine nor pay attention to truth. For the lust of what “they want to hear” they deny the Lordship of Christ and turn a deaf ear to the counsel of those who tries to help them understand.
II Tim. 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
II Tim. 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
II Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
II Tim. 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Thus it is in their blinding delusion, they are unable to see beyond what “their itching ears want to hear” and insist on asking for “scholars” in the face of the clear witness of Christ Himself. “Wicked” and “adulterous” is what Christ calls such a spirit of blatant disregard and hypocritical lip-service to His Lordship.
And so they are in verity. For they have no sense of loyalty or fidelity to the words and work of Christ, but only choose those things such that suits “their own desires”. When they find things disagreeable to their whim, they quickly abandon loyalty to Christ and hasten to an illicit relation to “Paul” and “scholars” to satisfy their adulterous doctrinal lust. Pitiful. They give fresh meaning to bogus!
Let every lamp be burning bright, the darkest hour is nearing...
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Dexter, some Scholars names on your and Tom's position are noticeably missing. I have supplied numerous ones that are studying this very subject. You to cavalierly along with Tom with only about three people, Tom, you and Des Ford, and I wonder about Des' position since he is now teaching in a non-SDA University and surrendered his SDA membership, as I understand.
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