The Reformed Sabbath

tom_norris · 01-22-10 9:47 pm

Bob said: The Temple curtain was not rent from top to bottom until Jesus death. He was born under the LAW and was obligated to keep it, as he defined the OT Sabbath,

Tom said: Jesus was a Jew from the tribe of Judah. He was not a Levite. Thus he had to fulfill the law as a (non priest) Jew all his life, including the Sabbath.

However, when he started his Gospel ministry, he did so by unveiling a new and very different Sabbath from what the Jews taught and observed.

Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Mark 1:21 They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.

Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Jesus not only kept the Old Covenant Sabbath law all his life, he also introduced, at the very start of his public ministry, a reformed, Gospel Sabbath. This controversial and surprising teaching of Jesus is featured in every one of the Gospels. This is the basis for the NC Sabbath.

Bob said: but when he said to come to Him for rest, it was a soul rest not a physical one. The possibility that Tom leaves out is the evident one in Col 2:16,17.

Tom said: Jesus gives forgiveness of sin, imputed righteousness, the Holy Spirit, and Eternal Life. Such Gospel gifts result in our peace of mind and spirit. They do not do away with the law or the NC Sabbath.

The Gospel Sabbath that Jesus defines, (as opposed to OC Sabbath of Moses), is a gift to man. It is not more rules, but a reflection of the mercy of God. No doubt this is a hard doctrine for the SDA’s. Just as it was for the Jews.

Bob said; Those who say the law is still binding and that Sabbath, tithing and clean and unclean laws are requirements seem to forget that the law was comprised of 613 laws.

Tom said: The Old Covenant Sabbath is not binding on the Church and neither is tithe, or Circumcision, much less the hundreds of other Jewish laws. The SDA’s are very wrong to teach an Old Covenant Sabbath and practice tithing and Jewish food laws. They don’t understand the Gospel. They are Judaizers. They are modern day Galatians.

Bob said: My question is how do SDA’s know from scripture what is retained and what is no longer binding?

Tom said: The SDA’s do not know how to distinguish between the Old and the New Covenant. This is their problem. Much of their doctrine comes from the OT, even as they misunderstand law, Gospel, church organization, and the Sabbath, etc.

Bob said: Also, in the old forum Tom did answer as to what is expected of Sabbath observers in the New Covenant. Actually, I couldn't tell the difference between Sabbath and any other day.

Tom said: It is easy to tell the difference between the Gospel Sabbath and the other days of the week.

First and foremost, it is a special day when the Gospel Community meets to pray, worship, and study the Word. This alone, sets it apart from all other days.

This is what Jesus did on the Gospel Sabbath over and over and over. This is what the church is to follow every 7th day. (Not Sunday).

Mark 1:21 They *went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.

Mark 6:2 When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?

Luke 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.

Luke 6:6 On another Sabbath He entered the synagogue and was teaching; and there was a man there whose right hand was withered.

Jesus also did other things on the New Covenant Sabbath, even as he debated what was permissible and what was not. Jesus is author of the New Covenant Sabbath. This is what he expects his followers to figure out and embrace.

Now some may protest and say there is no longer any Sabbath, because this is a Jewish doctrine. But so too is the Gospel and the NT. Both the Old and the New Covenants are Jewish, and thus it makes perfect sense that there is a Sabbath day for both paradigms.

Bob said: If groceries are needed go shopping. (Or if one is on the road traveling, stop and eat at a restaurant.)

Tom said: Correct.

In fact, Jesus speaks to these Sabbath points. He defended his disciples when they ate on the road, (ancient fast food), and also defended David and his band of men for eating forbidden food from the Sanctuary.

The New Covenant Sabbath of the Gospels allows anyone to cook food, eat out at a restaurant, or buy food at the store on the 7th day, as well as work in a restaurant. THIS is exactly what Jesus teaches. He does not, not, not, support what the SDA’s teach.

Remember, there are two very different 7th day Sabbaths. Do not confuse the two. But if one were talking about the Old Covenant Sabbath, then it would be a sin to work on Sabbath, etc. But if one is talking about the New Covenant Sabbath, that is different. The church cannot embrace the Old Covenant Sabbath or the Gentile fraud of the Sunday Lord’s Day.

Bob said: If asked to work then work.

Tom said: Correct.

Matt. 12:12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

1Tim. 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him,

Matt. 12:11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?

Matt. 12:12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

Bob said: He (Tom) went on about what is expected and it was not much.

Tom said: While the OC Sabbath was full of many rules and regulations, the NC Sabbath has very few.

So for the SDA’s, the Gospel Sabbath is a very new, different, and strange concept. It is solid truth that cannot be refuted. I suggest that they all start reading the NT, directly, instead of reading books about the Bible. This is the only way to study the Bible. One must go directly to the Word and read it.

Bob said: Where he picked all this up from scripture is beyond me.

Tom said: The NC Sabbath, which is the real Lord’s Day, is clearly found in all four Gospels.

Those who think Sunday is the Lord’s Day or that it is like the Sabbath of the OC Jews are all very wrong. So too those that think there is no Sabbath for the Church or that Jesus is the Sabbath.

Bob said: Where any SDA finds what is required on the day is beyond me.

Tom said: The SDA’s embraced the Sabbath of the Old Testament. This is where they find many of their doctrines, like tithe, food laws, and the Pre-Advent Judgment. (This is also where the RC’s get many of their false doctrines).

In conclusion, there is a New Covenant Sabbath for the church. It is time for the SDA’s to find it and repent of their many Old Covenant errors.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob · 01-22-10 11:49 pm

So there Bob-2 you have what Tom believes about how to observe Sabbath in a nut shell. I don't buy it, but I also will stop criticizing him for what he believes.

I believe there is rest for the Christian as supported in Hebrews. That rest is Jesus. Matthew 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

tom_norris · 01-23-10 2:28 am

Bob said: So there Bob-2 you have what Tom believes about how to observe Sabbath in a nutshell.

Tom said: There are many pages of discussion about the Reformed Sabbath on this site. That material, which now needs to be edited, speaks for itself.

Moreover, there obviously needs to be much more study and discussion about NC Sabbath. This is not your parents Sabbath, or that of the Pharisees. The church is going to have to wake up and study this all out. This is new doctrine for the church and it needs much more study and thought. This is a deep subject that has hardly been scratched.

Bob said: I don't buy it, but I also will stop criticizing him for what he believes.

Tom said: Feel free to criticize my view all you want. I don’t mind at all. But understand your views are hardly a challenge to the facts, nor are they responsive to the issues or the evidence.

What is it that troubles you about the NC Sabbath?

Just because it is new to you, does not make it wrong. The fact of the matter is that you have not come close to supporting your view that there is no weekly Sabbath for the church.

No serious theologian, either RC or Protestant, agrees with you. So no one really buys what you are selling my friend. It is not a coherent, credible, or practical Sabbath doctrine. It is theological nonsense.

Bob said; I believe there is rest for the Christian as supported in Hebrews. That rest is Jesus. Matthew 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Tom said: You need to understand your limitations. It is irrelevant what you believe. You are not an apostle. Only what Jesus and teaches and believes about the Sabbath matters. Only what the apostles have written has any authority for doctrine. (Which is far more than a few lone texts, taken out of context.)

So the issue is not what you believe, but what the NT teaches. (It does not appear that you are very familiar with the Gospels). I have already shown you that while Jesus claimed to be many things, like a Gate, or a road, or the truth, etc, etc, he NEVER claimed to be the Sabbath or the Sabbath rest for the church.

This is a fact, not an opinion, which overthrows your viewpoint. No one should teach any ideas, concepts, or doctrines that conflict with the NT record. Neither Jesus nor his apostles teach what you advocate, and this is why your views of the Sabbath, and others things, is wrong.

Jesus has clearly and repeatedly reformed the OC Sabbath into the NC Sabbath in all four books of the Gospels. The fact that the SDA’s, (as well as all others) have missed this critically important point is no excuse to remain in the dark, confused about the Sabbath.

It is time for all in the SDA Community to understand that they have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath and repent. After all these years of throwing stones at the Sunday keepers, they are just as bad, if not worse. They have embraced the forbidden Old Covenant Sabbath of the Judaizers, which has confused them for so long that they cannot easily understand anything else.

They are truly blind and naked as the PAJ/ LM teaches.

Those that understand the Gospel will also understand the Gospel Sabbath. Those that don’t won’t.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob · 01-23-10 11:36 am

Tom said: You need to understand your limitations. It is irrelevant what you believe. You are not an apostle. Only what Jesus and teaches and believes about the Sabbath matters. Only what the apostles have written has any authority for doctrine. (Which is far more than a few lone texts, taken out of context.)

Ditto, I can and do express the same view about you. You need to understand your limitations. It is irrelevant what you believe. You are not an apostle. Only what Jesus and teaches and believes about the Sabbath matters. Only what the apostles have written has any authority for doctrine. (Which is far more than a few lone texts, taken out of context.

bob · 01-23-10 11:47 am

Tom, I can post many scriptural references to support the fulfillment of the Torah which includes the Sabbath (reformed or as commanded) but either you would deny them or not respond. I know because of past posts. Your rantings prove nothing except that you have a closed mind and an agenda.

I just find it best to let you rant because you are not making inroads in any camp.

tom_norris · 01-23-10 12:48 pm

Bob said: Ditto, I can and do express the same view about you. … You are not an apostle. Only what Jesus and teaches and believes about the Sabbath matters…

Tom said: I agree. I have no doctrinal authority, and never suggested otherwise. Which is why I make it a point to go to those that have such authority. THIS is what you also need to do.

Bob said: Tom, I can post many scriptural references to support the fulfillment of the Torah which includes the Sabbath (reformed or as commanded) but either you would deny them or not respond.

Tom said: You seem to think that we are in some kind of proof texting war. We are not. The object is to understand the teachings of the NT, not try to find support for our views from random passages.

Of course Jesus fulfilled the law. But that does not mean the law has been removed or the Sabbath made extinct. Jesus has the right and the authority to teach the church how to view the Gospel Sabbath. He is the leading apostle of God and he has all possible doctrinal authority.

Those that claim to follow him, must do so. They are not at liberty to ignore or dismiss his Sabbath teachings any more than they can do so about any other topic. Nor should anyone blaspheme Heaven by placing false words in the mouth of Jesus. Many are guilty of this, even every double talking Sunday keeper and every SDA.

Bob said: Your rantings prove nothing except that you have a closed mind and an agenda. I just find it best to let you rant because you are not making inroads in any camp.

Tom said: I have given you numerous scriptures that support the NC Sabbath. I also showed you that Jesus nowhere claimed to be the Sabbath or even our Sabbath rest as you insisted he did. I even showed you that Hebrews does not mean a spiritual Sabbath as you claim.

But you ignore what proves you wrong, like all SDA’s were taught to do. Such a sad and disrespectful hermeneutic will never find truth. Only when the Word and the history of the church are honestly embraced, can the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath be understood.

This is difficult material, and thus the study of the Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath should not be taken lightly. I suggest that all Adventists get serious about the teachings of Jesus, even as they back away from the many assumptions that fill their confused minds.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 01-23-10 3:54 pm

Tom stated:

The Every Day Sabbath, which was invented by the Gentile Church Fathers. This interpretation has not found any practical acceptance within the church except by those that try and refute the Seventh Day Sabbath. However, most Sabbatarian critics go to church on Sunday.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm

Because there is a minority that has not accepted TRUTH you reject it??? You are looking for the majority before you adopt the TRUTH on an issue. Dangerous place to be, IMO.

bob · 01-23-10 4:46 pm

tom_norris wrote:

Bob said: Ditto, I can and do express the same view about you. … You are not an apostle. Only what Jesus and teaches and believes about the Sabbath matters…
Tom said: I agree. I have no doctrinal authority, and never suggested otherwise. Which is why I make it a point to go to those that have such authority. THIS is what you also need to do.
Bob said: Tom, I can post many scriptural references to support the fulfillment of the Torah which includes the Sabbath (reformed or as commanded) but either you would deny them or not respond.
Tom said: You seem to think that we are in some kind of proof texting war. We are not. The object is to understand the teachings of the NT, not try to find support for our views from random passages.
At war I am not although I do enjoy a good debate. We each see things in the texts we read that stand out for some reason. After reading all of Paul's writings I still do not find anything that would reference a weekly reformed NC Sabbath, and you have not presented any concrete evidence that I can bite into.
Of course Jesus fulfilled the law. But that does not mean the law has been removed or the Sabbath made extinct. Jesus has the right and the authority to teach the church how to view the Gospel Sabbath. He is the leading apostle of God and he has all possible doctrinal authority.
Law = Torah If Jesus didn't remove the Sabbath then He also didn't remove all the other laws that pertained to the common Israelite. If you take your thoughts seriously then your clothes should be of only one thread, your house should have a fence around the roof, your garments should have tassels, you should have a place for your wife and all women to go during certain times and you should observe many other OC laws.
Actually, your theology would be considered flawed.
Those that claim to follow him, must do so. They are not at liberty to ignore or dismiss his Sabbath teachings any more than they can do so about any other topic. Nor should anyone blaspheme Heaven by placing false words in the mouth of Jesus. Many are guilty of this, even every double talking Sunday keeper and every SDA.
His Sabbath teachings were for Israelites who were under Torah. Gentiles were never nor are we now under the 613 laws given only to Israel. Jesus was rebuking the pharisees, not introducing a new Sabbath for the World. You know that you cannot find that He was transforming Sabbath in any scripture. Yours is plain conjecture.
Bob said: Your rantings prove nothing except that you have a closed mind and an agenda. I just find it best to let you rant because you are not making inroads in any camp.
Tom said: I have given you numerous scriptures that support the NC Sabbath. I also showed you that Jesus nowhere claimed to be the Sabbath or even our Sabbath rest as you insisted he did. I even showed you that Hebrews does not mean a spiritual Sabbath as you claim.
Heb 3: 16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[c]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
For 40 years they observed the Sabbath yet they did not enter His rest. His rest is undoubtedly not the weekly Sabbath.
Heb 4: 6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."[d] 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
So there is a Sabbath-rest for the people of God and that rest is Jesus. I have found it and so can you if you will just open your eyes and heart to it.
But you ignore what proves you wrong, like all SDA’s were taught to do. Such a sad and disrespectful hermeneutic will never find truth. Only when the Word and the history of the church are honestly embraced, can the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath be understood.
This is difficult material, and thus the study of the Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath should not be taken lightly. I suggest that all Adventists get serious about the teachings of Jesus, even as they back away from the many assumptions that fill their confused minds.
Again, ditto
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

P. S. Tom, your advocated Sabbath doesn't allude to rest. Hebrews tells us that there is rest, so yours is not the answer.

Last edited by bob (01-23-10 4:48 pm)

tom_norris · 01-24-10 2:13 pm

Bob said: Because there is a minority that has not accepted TRUTH you reject it???

Tom said: I never said what you claim. Nor is your silly position about the Sabbath to be considered truth.

I reject your view because Jesus and the apostles reject this view. It is not truth for that reason.

I was also pointing out that the church long ago refuted those, like yourself, who spiritualized away the weekly Sabbath. They did so because this is not what the Bible teaches.

Way back then, they could read the NT and understand that there was a weekly Sabbath for the church, just as there was in Judaism, which is the foundation for the Christian religion. Even the heretic Marcion understood this point and taught a weekly Sabbath, although he wanted it to be a day of fasting.

There was never any real debate, doubt, or question about the necessity of a weekly Sabbath for the church. So your view has been correctly rejected long ago, which makes it laughable today. Those who embrace such fiction are not Christians. Rather, they are making up their own religion, which of course will not lead to peace, rest, or Eternal Life.

The majority is more correct then you in this case, not because they are the majority, but because this is obviously what the NT teaches. It is so obvious that there has always been a weekly Sabbath for the church. Which is to say that your view has always been correctly rejected for two thousand years. And so it will be forever.

Your Allegorical Sabbath position is hopeless and futile. There is a weekly, literal Sabbath for the church. This is what the NT teaches. This is what billions have embraced, even though there are still Sabbath errors to be corrected in the church.

Bob said: You are looking for the majority before you adopt the TRUTH on an issue. Dangerous place to be, IMO.

Tom said: I am looking to see what Jesus and the apostles teach on this and any subject. They are a special minority with all the authority. They are my authority for doctrine, and they should be yours as well.

When it comes to the weekly, 7th day Sabbath, the Gospels are clear that this was a favorite and special doctrine of Jesus. He did not spiritualize the Day away or pretend that the Sabbath was now extinct, or that it would be so after the cross. He defended and reformed it for the church. In all four Gospels.

Those that pretend otherwise, and insist there is no Sabbath for the church, are boldly refuting the NT, and ignoring the clear and repeated Sabbath teachings of Jesus, as well as Hebrews.

Those that think they have found some theological theory to remove the Sabbath from the Church have made a grave error. Not only that, they are making fools of themselves to think that they can run to some obscure Sabbath reference in Colossians or Hebrews, to sustain their false doctrine, which is so obviously against the teachings of Christ.

Those that pay attention to the Gospels, and respect the teachings of Jesus, will come to understand the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. It is this simple.

Those that refuse to use an honest and credible hermeneutic will never understand anything correctly, least of all the Gospel or the NC Sabbath.

I suggest that you abandon this spiritual Sabbath idea and try to focus on how the Sabbath teachings of Jesus can be applied to our contemporary world. This would be more profitable for all concerned.

Bob said: We each see things in the texts we read that stand out for some reason. After reading all of Paul's writings I still do not find anything that would reference a weekly reformed NC Sabbath, and you have not presented any concrete evidence that I can bite into.

Tom said: Bob, you are not paying attention.

Why are you looking for Paul to explain the Sabbath? He does not have more authority than Jesus, who is the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath. Paul was never the Lord of the Sabbath or even an expert. He had it all wrong. In fact, when Jesus was teaching Sabbath Reform, Paul never believed a word he said. Even after the cross, Paul went on a rampage to wipe out the Gospel and defend the OC Sabbath from these heretical teachings.

The point I have been making over and over is this. The NC Sabbath IS FOUND IN THE GOSPELS!

DO NOT try to understand the Gospel Sabbath from the few sparse references outside the Gospels. There is not enough information.

The Gospel Sabbath is featured in all four of the Gospels. Jesus is the author, not Paul.

If anyone wants “concrete evidence” about the reformed, Gospel Sabbath, they must go to the Gospels. They must go to Jesus and learn from him.

Bob said: Law = Torah If Jesus didn't remove the Sabbath then He also didn't remove all the other laws that pertained to the common Israelite.

Tom said: Jesus did “remove” and abolish the OLD COVENANT SABBATH. But he did it in a way that honored the eternal nature of the Moral law, of which the Sabbath is in the center.

The Reformed Sabbath remains for the church, but only from the perspective of priests. The OC Sabbath rules no longer apply to the church because all in the New Covenant are priests. In the NC, all can now do many things that would have been unlawful in the OC.

This New Covenant recalibration transforms the Sabbath into a very different doctrine, and this is what Jesus, not Paul, did in the Gospels for all to see.

All must go to Jesus in the Gospels to find the genuine Sabbath for the church. The SDA’s have made fools of themselves by embracing the OC Sabbath of Moses and the Pharisees.

Bob said: His Sabbath teachings were for Israelites who were under Torah. Gentiles were never nor are we now under the 613 laws given only to Israel.

Tom said: The Gospel teachings of Jesus are for all those that want Eternal Life. All that are saved, must become spiritual Jews and enter into a paradigm that is 100% Jewish. The Gospel Sabbath is for the Church.

In the NC, all are priests, and thus NONE are under the law of the 4th Commandment as the SDA’s teach.

The NC Sabbath is only for those that have been saved and are not under the law. That is why they can do so many things on the Sabbath and not be guilty of sin. The Gospel Sabbath is very different from what you must imagine. No need to be so hostile to this fundamental teaching of Jesus.

Bob said: Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees, not introducing a new Sabbath for the World.

Tom said: You underestimate the work of Jesus. He was setting up the church to save the world. He was re-defining and reforming Judaism into the Christian Faith. And this included a very different, even stunning, teaching about the Sabbath.

Bob said: You know that you cannot find that He was transforming Sabbath in any scripture. Yours is plain conjecture.

Tom said: The Gospels show that Jesus taught a very different Sabbath from the Jews. It was so radical and different that this is why the Jews decided to kill Jesus and end his ministry. I suggest you read the Gospels to understand this story better.

I suggest that you start reading the Gospels with a more open and understanding mind. Just as there are two Covenants, so too there are two different Sabbaths. There is the OC Sabbath for the Jews and a NC Sabbath for the Church. At the end of history, this will become clear to all.

Bob quoted Hebrews: Heb 3: 16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

For 40 years they observed the Sabbath yet they did not enter His rest. His rest is undoubtedly not the weekly Sabbath.

Tom said: This passage is showing the futility of the OC Sabbath. It did not save the faithless Jews, even though they went through the motions. They did not respond with the necessary faith or obedience.

Bob quoted Heb 4: 6-11: It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:  "Today, if you hear his voice,  do not harden your hearts."[d] 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Bob then said: So there is a Sabbath-rest for the people of God and that rest is Jesus. I have found it and so can you if you will just open your eyes and heart to it.

Tom said: The “rest” is the Gospel. The author is saying that the 1st century Jews have another chance to embrace the Gospel. Although their forefathers rejected the Gospel and thus disobeyed, here is another opportunity for the Jews to enter into the Gospel Rest as now articulated by Christ.

Then comes the verse in question about the FUTURE Sabbath for the church. Heb 4: 9 announces to all that there is still a 7th Day Sabbath doctrine for the “people of God.” The Greek word for Sabbath in this text EXCLUDES the possibility that the author is talking about a Spiritual Sabbath, or an Every Day Sabbath.

There is a Gospel Sabbath for the church. Hebrews is not saying otherwise. In fact, Hebrews is elevating Jesus above the law and giving him all authority. Thus, the Sabbath teaching of Jesus is to be taken as the Word of God. (Which is exactly what Jesus teaches about his Sabbath reforms).

Heb. 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

Heb. 1:2 1in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Heb. 1:3 1And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Heb. 1:4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

On what basis can anyone declare that Jesus Sabbath teachings can be dismissed, ignored, or changed? The reformed Sabbath teaching of Jesus, IN THE GOSPELS is a doctrine from God almighty. Those who feel free to repudiate the Sabbath teachings of Jesus are making the same mistake, as did the faithless Jews in the wilderness.

Heb. 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Those today that embrace the Gospel will also embrace the NC Sabbath as a sign of that Gospel rest. Those that don’t, have no reason to embrace the Sabbath of Christ. (Note also another reference to the Gospel Sabbath in Heb 10. Jews “assemble together” only on the Sabbath.)

Heb. 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Heb. 4:1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.

Heb. 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

Heb. 4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Heb. 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

There is a Gospel Sabbath for the church. Too bad the SDA’s embraced the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath.

Bob said: Tom, your advocated Sabbath doesn't allude to rest. Hebrews tells us that there is rest, so yours is not the answer.

Tom said: The Reformed Sabbath is “advocated” by Christ and recorded by his disciples in all four Gospels. It is not my Sabbath, as you assert, but that of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath and head of the church.

Those that choose to deny the clear teachings of Jesus and repudiate the Gospels, including the Seventh day Gospel Sabbath, have repudiated the authority of Christ and his Gospel. They are not Christian, nor will they receive any spiritual rest now, or in the future.

Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

The Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus, “the mediator of a new covenant,” does not condemn or require much of men. It is a day that mirrors our freedom, rest, and salvation in Christ, even as it proves who will follow the Gospel Word and who will not.

Heb. 12:25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.

Let all SDA’s study the Gospel Sabbath and try to understand.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath

bob_2 · 01-25-10 3:20 am

Tom, your reference to all the Gospels mentioning a mandated Sabbath, all were written under the Old Covenant. When the New Covenant begins, the Gospels are ending. Acts of the Apostles and Paul relays the New Church position on the Sabbath. Why is that so hard to comprehend. Of course the Church has to meet every week to survive, but it is not part of the Gospel. Boil down the salvific issues and the Sabbath, other than the fulfilled, Christ as bringing rest with forgiveness of sin, are all gone.

bob · 01-25-10 7:45 am

bob_2 wrote:

Tom, your reference to all the Gospels mentioning a mandated Sabbath, all were written under the Old Covenant. When the New Covenant begins, the Gospels are ending. Acts of the Apostles and Paul relays the New Church position on the Sabbath. Why is that so hard to comprehend. Of course the Church has to meet every week to survive, but it is not part of the Gospel. Boil down the salvific issues and the Sabbath, other than the fulfilled, Christ as bringing rest with forgiveness of sin, are all gone.

Yes bob-2, Jesus was under the law teaching those who were under the law. He taught that not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until he completely fulfilled all of it. That included the Sabbath. When we meet as a church makes no difference to New Covenant believers. We are under, as James so eloquently states, the Royal law of love.

don · 01-25-10 9:44 am

The Royal Law of Love has not done away with "Thou Shalt Not Kill" or any of the others (Nine). Jesus said the Sabbath was God's gift to humanity, "made for man". If I follow the Royal Law of Love, why would I throw away a gift from God if I love Him?

bob_2 · 01-25-10 3:42 pm

The two Covenants have been compared to two marriages. You would not use the same document you signed for a first marriage should you marry a second time, but would use a new covenant/contract, even if only one change was made, maybe about preexisting children of one of the spouses and how they would be dealt with. Also, read this excerpt about OC and NC Sabbathkeeping:

Work on the Sabbath:
In John 5, let's see what Jesus did on the Sabbath, and what he said about the Sabbath. He had gone to the Pool of Bethesda and found a man who had been lame for 38 years. "When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, `Do you want to get well?' " (verse 6).
You might think that it's a strange question — but some people simply don't want to get well. They are comfortable in their old habits, their old way of life. The man had been crippled for 38 years, and if he were suddenly healed, he'd have to change the way he lived. He would have to learn a new role in the community. It might be frightening, so Jesus asked him, Do you really want to be healed? This man did want to be healed, so Jesus said:
"Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat" (verses 8-10).
Now admittedly, there was no emergency. The man didn't have to go anywhere on the Sabbath. He could have stayed until sunset. But Jesus had told him to carry something on the Sabbath, and the Jewish leaders didn't like that. They found out that Jesus had done this healing on the Sabbath, and in verses 16-17 we read: "So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, `My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.' " So here Jesus admits that he was working on the Sabbath, and he was not sinning. Jesus was not afraid to use the word "work" to describe what he was doing. In the new covenant, we need to take a more flexible approach with work and humanitarian needs.
Scripture says that those who don't provide for their own families are worse than unbelievers, and common sense says that, too. If the choice is between working on the Sabbath and providing food for the family, it is not a sin to work on the Sabbath. We should not apply old covenant rules to the new covenant Sabbath. They aren't doing it for selfish benefit, but to avoid hunger and putting their families out on the street.
If other people want to be stricter, they certainly can be for themselves. But they should not judge their brothers. We are under the new covenant, you see, and the new covenant simply doesn't require the Sabbath like the old covenant did. We see New Testament examples of Sabbath-keeping, but we don't see commands like the Old Testament had: Do not gather food, do not carry a burden, do not travel out of the city, etc.
Some people want boundaries spelled out for them. Others do not, and they want to live their Christian faith as guided by broader principles. Jesus saw principles as more important than specific rules. We see this in the Sermon on the Mount, in his teachings about lust and hate and violence. We see it in his approach to the Sabbath, too. Humanitarian principles are more important than strict taboos.
But not everyone has a grasp of the broad principles as well as Jesus did. So, if they need rules, they are welcome to keep their own rules — as long as they do it to the glory of God, as long as their faith is in Christ and not in their rules. The main point is that one group shouldn't criticize the other. The conservatives should not condemn the actions of others, and the liberals shouldn't despise the rule-keepers. We should welcome each other based on faith in Jesus Christ.

http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/newcovsabb.htm#Sabbath

This article was written by a church that was a better Sabbathkeeper than the SDAs were at one time. They have studied and seen a different interpretation of the tenets of the New Covenant.

Last edited by bob_2 (01-25-10 3:44 pm)

bob · 01-25-10 5:22 pm

don wrote:

The Royal Law of Love has not done away with "Thou Shalt Not Kill" or any of the others (Nine). Jesus said the Sabbath was God's gift to humanity, "made for man". If I follow the Royal Law of Love, why would I throw away a gift from God if I love Him?

The Royal Law is Thou shalt not kill. The Royal law is treating others with respect. Most of all it is loving others as/like Jesus loves us. That is a tall command. It covers stealing, honoring our parents and etc.. When Jesus nailed the law with its 613 commands to the Cross He didn't leave us lawless. We are partakers of a better Covenant. SDAs cannot fathom this because of all the years being pounded with the need to observe the Israelite Sabbath of the Torah. Just look how He expanded the law of killing. If you are hell bent to leave one foot in the old law and preach its commands you are denying Jesus expanded laws. How can you hold up the old law and tell people that it is God's character. That is beyond me and it is pure deceivery.

Murder
Matt 5:21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

tom_norris · 01-26-10 6:41 pm

Bob 2 said: Tom, your reference to all the Gospels mentioning a mandated Sabbath, all were written under the Old Covenant. When the New Covenant begins, the Gospels are ending.

Tom said: Ha! This is comical. Who said Jesus should be viewed as an Old Testament figure? And where did you get this absurd idea that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are in the Old Testament? You are very confused my friend.

Jesus is a transformative figure to be sure, but as the author and founder of the NC Church, he must be viewed as a New Testament person. Not an OT figure.

Jesus was a paradigm shifter that transcended the OT and made it obsolete. He came with a New Covenant perspective, including a very different Sabbath, even as he preached the Gospel, (NT term) and formed the church, - prior to the cross event.

The birth of Jesus marks the beginning of the NEW TESTEMENT Story. Which is why two of the four Gospels, Matthew and Luke, start with the birth of Jesus.

Jesus is a NT figure from birth, and so too are his Gospel teachings a few decades later, which include his Sabbath teachings that can be found in every one of the Gospels.

(The story of Jesus birth is only contained in 50% of the Gospels, while his Sabbath teachings are in all four Gospels. Twice as much!)

When Jesus is born, the NC begins.

When Jesus starts to preach the Gospel and explain how the New Covenant Sabbath is to be viewed and understood, he is doing so for the church.

He is not teaching OC doctrine, but NC doctrine, even though his blood has not yet been shed to seal the NC. (By the time all four Gospels were written, the cross event was long past, which again proves that the authors considered the (Sabbath) teachings of Jesus to be relevant for the NC. That is why this NT teaching is in all four of the Gospels.

The Gospel is a New Covenant term, with very different teachings from the Old Covenant. Each of the four Gospels contains Jesus New Covenant teachings, which includes his controversial Gospel Sabbath.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Jesus did not teach it was time to embrace the Old Covenant did he? NO! He preached that is was time for a shift from OC Law to the New Covenant Gospel.

Jesus is the pre-eminent NC figure. There is none greater or more authoritative.

The Gospel teaching of Jesus is the basis for the New Covenant. His Sabbath teachings are also part of this Gospel teaching and thus it cannot be excluded from the duty of the church.

Just as there was a Sabbath under the Old Covenant of Moses, so too under the New Covenant of Jesus. The latter Sabbath is for the church, while the former is for the Jews. Too bad that the SDA’s have confused and blended these two, even as they have made a habit of repudiating the Gospel.

This great error must be corrected. There is a NC Sabbath for the church, and it is very different from the OC Sabbath or the popular Sunday Lord’s Day.

Moreover, because the NT teaches that Christ was part of the Creation process, he has every right to claim authority over the Sabbath.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

This is one reason why Jesus holds the Sabbath in such high regard and claims to be its Lord. It points back to his Creation activity and forward to the ultimate Gospel rest of Eternal Life that is only found by faith in him.

So no wonder the Sabbath gets so much attention in the NT. No wonder he claims to be its Lord. Which is the opposite of removing it. Jesus has established the Gospel Sabbath forever. It plays such an important role, and has such a pedigree, that it can never be eliminated from NC theology, or reduced to allegory or a state of mind.

The Lord of the Sabbath would not be pleased with anyone who wants to change or remove his doctrine of the weekly Sabbath. Which explains why all Laodiceans make Jesus puke! This is really what the Laodicean Message says in the Greek. The word “spit” really means “vomit.”

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

All churches and denominations have a false Sabbath. Especially the SDA’s. They have the 7th day Sabbath of the enemies of Christ. They have the same Sabbath as those that killed Christ for Sabbath breaking! They are great Judaizers and fools.

How sad for the SDA’s. They were supposed to be the Sabbath experts. And now they don’t know the difference between the OC Sabbath and the New. Ha! They never even knew there was a difference! Silly Adventists, they do not understand the Gospel Story or church history correctly. They are blind to the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. Just like the 1st century, Sabbath keeping Jews.

Bob 2 said: Acts of the Apostles and Paul relays the New Church position on the Sabbath. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

Tom said: Jesus speaks for God and for himself. His words and actions have been recorded by four of his most trusted apostles in the Gospels, for the church. (Not for the OC Jews).

Jesus is the head of the church, and its’ leading apostle. He alone, as the Son of God and the co-Creator defines the Gospel Sabbath; even as he alone makes it clear that he is in charge of this Creation based doctrine. Why do you ignore this fundamental point? Why would anyone?

Those that want to understand the NC Sabbath, must go to Jesus in the Gospels. He is the Lord of the Reformed Sabbath, not Luke or Paul. The Gospels are where the Sabbath doctrine for the church is located, explained, and demonstrated.

The few remaining remarks about the Sabbath in Acts, Colossians, Hebrews, and Revelation do not conflict with the clear Sabbath teachings of Jesus. They only reinforce what he did and taught.

Bob 2 said: Of course the Church has to meet every week to survive, but it is not part of the Gospel. Boil down the salvific issues and the Sabbath, other than the fulfilled, Christ as bringing rest with forgiveness of sin, are all gone.

Tom said: The NC Sabbath is part of the Gospel teachings of Jesus. How can anyone read the four Gospels and not see this clear fact. For the Jews, the 7th day was always used to study the word and worship God in a communal manner, and this primary function would be retained by Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath, even as the prohibition about work would be dramatically removed. (Jesus explains how this works theologically.)

The reason you may think the Sabbath is gone, is because you do not view the Gospel teachings of Jesus as authoritative for the church. But Jesus is the highest authority in the church and its’ number one theologian. If he teaches there is a Gospel Sabbath; then THERE IS A GOSPEL SABBATH.

There is no guessing or maybe involved in this matter. The record is clear in all four Gospel Accounts. There is a NC Sabbath for the Church. Period.

Where does Jesus teach that the Sabbath has evaporated and is now extinct in the NC? Or that the Sabbath is a spiritual state of mind and not a real 7th day for the Community to hear the Gospel? It is madness take such a view.

Where does Paul, or anyone in the NT, teach that the Sabbath has been removed?

Paul instructed the Gentiles to meet him on Sabbath to hear the Gospel. How can anyone claim he said it was gone?

The Sabbath behavior that Paul practices fits perfectly with Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath, even as it proves that the Sabbath is still alive and well, and not extinct in the NC. Other examples could also be added to prove the same point.

The church, both Jewish and Gentile, has always had a Sabbath because this is what Jesus in the Gospels clearly teaches, and what the church needs to survive and grow.

If you don’t want to pay attention to Jesus and his Gospel Sabbath, then don’t. But don’t think you are a Christian or that you have Eternal Life, or that you even understand basic theology correctly. You are a critic of Christ and his Gospel; someone who refutes what he teaches and refuses to be corrected.

Bob said: Yes bob-2, Jesus was under the law teaching those who were under the law.

Tom said: While Jesus was born under the Old Covenant Jewish law, this does not mean he cannot teach the Gospel at the same time. In fact, this is what he did. While Jesus went to the Jews, he nonetheless preached the same basic Gospel to them as would go to the Gentiles later on. There are not two different Gospels, one for the Jews and another one for the Gentiles.

Jesus Gospel teaching is for both Jew and Gentile. And so too was his Gospel Sabbath. That is why he said it was for all humanity, not just for the Jews.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

The Greek word in this famous passage does not mean Jews, but all humanity. The use of such a specific word was not an accident. And neither is the unique word for the Sabbath in Hebrews 4: 9, which is a clear reference to the weekly Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus.

Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Remember, the author of Hebrews, (Paul, Luke, or Apollos?), also stated that God is speaking to us through the words of Christ, the co-creator of the world.

Heb. 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

Heb. 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the 3fworld.

Are not the Sabbath teachings of Jesus the Word of God for us? Should we not listen to Jesus about the Sabbath?

Heb. 4:11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Luke 6:47 “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:

Luke 6:48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.

Luke 6:49 “But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

The Gospel Sabbath, as defined by Jesus in the Gospels, is the word of God for the Church. His weekly, literal, and reformed NC Sabbath is the only valid Lord’s Day for the church. Those that refute his Gospel Sabbath, also refute his Gospel, and thus they are “ruined” as their worthless theology crumbles around them when they need it the most. They are doomed.

At the end of time, the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath will become better understood and loudly proclaimed. Both doctrines work together as a package, never alone. Those that do not understand the Gospel correctly will not be able to comprehend the Gospel Sabbath. It is a doctrine for the saved; for those that embrace the genuine Jesus of the NT.

Bob said: He taught that not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until he completely fulfilled all of it. That included the Sabbath.

Tom said: Jesus taught how the GOSPEL Sabbath was to be viewed and why. He reformed it from an OC doctrine full of rules and regulations into a NC doctrine that was very different, even the opposite, of what had been previously taught.

Those that claim to follow Christ must embrace his 7th day Gospel Sabbath. They can’t refute his view and then think they are Christian. This is delusional.

Bob said: When we meet as a church makes no difference to New Covenant believers.

Tom said: It is very apparent that most Laodiceans could care less about correct doctrine. I believe this is very true, and very sad. Every church and denomination is so full of error, tradition, and false doctrine, that few give a hoot about truth, nor would they know it if they heard it.

Very little makes “any difference to them,” which is why they have ALL been declared to be blind and naked, embracing one false doctrine after another.

Those who are so reckless and dismissive of correct doctrine are making a big mistake. Jesus never taught that his Sabbath doctrine “makes no difference.” Nor did he declare himself to be the “Lord of the Irrelevant Sabbath.” Or the “Lord of the Spiritual Sabbath.”

Jesus is head of the church. When he declares himself to be the Lord of the weekly Sabbath of the Jews, and then risks his life to teach a very new and different Sabbath for the church; his followers need to observe, listen, and learn.

Jesus, as Creator and Redeemer, is the author of the Gospel Sabbath. Those that claim to follow him cannot adopt or invent another version. Thus all the Sunday keepers and the SDA’s must repent for their various Sabbath errors. None of them have it right. Not one denomination!

Sabbath Not Removed

Many incorrectly think the Sabbath has been removed from the church because it is Jewish and part of the Old Covenant. They forget that the New Covenant is just as Jewish as the Old Covenant. This theological fact explains why the Sabbath is so important to both paradigms, and why it cannot be removed from either Covenant.

There is an OC Sabbath of Moses, and there is a NC, Gospel Sabbath of Jesus. All Christians must repudiate the former and only embrace the latter.

Bob said: We are under, as James so eloquently states, the Royal law of love.

Tom said: Be careful. While the Moral law has correctly been viewed as eternal, being the standard of behavior in both the Old and New Covenants, the Christian is never under law in the sense that he must obey the Moral law for salvation. No one can be saved with such legalistic theology.

While the Gospel is salvific, the Gospel Sabbath is not.

The Gospel Sabbath is not a burden like the OC Sabbath. The NC Sabbath is a much better, and very different kind of Sabbath. It has so few rules and prohibitions that no Christian need ever be condemned for Sabbath breaking.

I suggest that you try to better understand the Gospel Story, including the NC Sabbath, before you criticize and dismiss it.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris, for the Gospel Sabbath

bob_2 · 01-27-10 2:47 am

The point was the New Covenant never started until after the Gospels, Jesus was still under the old covenant, the New Covenant started at His death at the end of the Gospels. Now, Tom even you know that. I am not suggesting the Gospels are part of the OT, but the Early Church never started until Christ's ascension. The Gospel Sabbath is not as you suggest, Jesus is. It is not Jesus technically changing the rules for a 24 hour period. He is the Sabbath.

tom_norris · 01-27-10 11:37 am

Bob 2 said: The point was the New Covenant never started until after the Gospels,

Tom said: WRONG! The New Covenant starts with the Birth of Jesus. He is the New Covenant. He represents the Gospel, even as a baby. This is why the story about Jesus birth is found in two of the Gospels. It is not an OT story.

While it is true that the New Covenant was not ratified until after the cross event, Jesus nonetheless explained and taught New Covenant theology for the church all during his Gospel ministry. His teachings are New Covenant, not Old Covenant. He had to organize and develop the church before he want to the cross, and this is what he is doing in the Gospels.

Matt. 16:18 “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

I don’t think I have ever heard of anyone trying to say otherwise. It is an absurd and desperate position that will do nothing to stop the truth about the Gospel Sabbath. I suggest you stop embarrassing yourself and abandon this heretical and impossible view.

Look at this passage and understand that Jesus teaching was for the Church:

Matt. 18:14 “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Matt. 18:15 ¶ “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.

Matt. 18:16 “But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

Matt. 18:17 “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Matt. 18:18 “Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Matt. 18:19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

Matt. 18:20 “For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

Thus we can clearly see Jesus, in all four Gospels, teaching his disciples, and the OC Jews, how to embrace the New Covenant, including the Reformed Sabbath. Even though he had not gone to the cross as yet.

Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Had the cross event not taken place. THEN the Gospel teachings of Jesus would have become moot. They would have become worthless fiction, even as the world would have been in a hopeless situation. But this did not happen. The NC was ratified at the cross, thus preserving the Gospel teachings of Jesus for mankind.

Bob 2 said: Jesus was still under the old covenant, the New Covenant started at His death at the end of the Gospels.

The NC starts when Jesus is born. It was ratified at the cross.

This is why two of the Gospels start off with the Christmas Story. While it is true that Jesus was born under the OC, he was also the incarnation of the Gospel. So in a very real sense, HE WAS THE GOSPEL. Even as an infant. There should be no doubt that Jesus was a New Covenant figure. It is absurd to claim otherwise.

Bob 2 said: Now, Tom even you know that.

Tom said: Your view is absurd and impossible. I know that Jesus is a NT figure and that his reformed Sabbath doctrine is contained in all four of the Gospels.

The fact that you think Jesus was teaching Old Covenant doctrine in the Gospels is the most ludicrous and outrageous position that I have ever encountered from someone claiming to be a Christian. You need help my friend.

Bob2 said: I am not suggesting the Gospels are part of the OT, but the Early Church never started until Christ's ascension.

Tom said: You are claiming that Jesus Sabbath teaching is not for the church. You are claiming that the New Covenant did not start with the birth of Jesus. You could not be more wrong. Jesus formed the church during his ministry. This is what the Gospels clearly show.

Bob2 said: The Gospel Sabbath is not as you suggest, Jesus is. It is not Jesus technically changing the rules for a 24-hour period. He is the Sabbath.

Tom said: You are so confused about theology and church history that you are not qualified to opine on anything associated with the Bible, Jesus, or the Gospel.

Your opinions are so uninformed and wrong that you are only embarrassing yourself as you attempt to repudiate the Gospel teachings of Jesus. You need to study more and post less.

Jesus in NOT the Sabbath. He is not a day, but a very special person that few understand correctly. I suggest you take the Gospel teachings of Jesus more seriously, including his clear and repeated doctrine about the Gospel Sabbath.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for genuine Sabbath Reform in the SDA church

bob_2 · 01-27-10 2:45 pm

Find anyone that suggests the New Covenant started at Jesus birth and maybe I will take a second look at your claims, but I can't find one other than yours. Your tone, attitude and negativity, turns the church off to you, and you have nothing to show for it. You need reform, not the Sabbath. The Sabbath was always a shadow of Jesus and the rest he provides in the NC with forgiveness of sins that the law could not provide. There is no day in the New Covenant that is to be more sacred than another. You know that, yet insist on saying so.

bob · 01-27-10 9:12 pm

Tom said: You are so confused about theology and church history that you are not qualified to opine on anything associated with the Bible, Jesus, or the Gospel.

Sounds to me like the pot calling the kettle black.

Is there anone else in the world that agrees with you Tom? I wouldn't make any difference to me because if there is, all of you are wrong.

don · 01-28-10 3:44 am

Is there anyone else in the world that agrees with you Tom?

Hmmm. I agree with Tom on some things. Tom has helped me understand that the early Adventists identified the First and Second Angels' messages as historical events of the Millerite movement, and the Third Angel's Message was the Early Adventists two fold message of Revelation 14:12, i.e. keeping the commandments of God (emphasis on the Sabbath), and the faith of Jesus.

Also, Tom has been instrumental in keeping troubles of the 1888 times in focus. And, if we can believe his own account (which I do), he played a role in helping persuade the White Estate to release the "1888 materials" to the public.

I don't agree with his stand on alcohol and the Lord's Supper, or his denouncing of tithing. Though, even there, Tom's insistence on such, has caused me to reexamine my views and adjust them somewhat. I don't fully understand his concept of the Christian mandate to work on the Sabbath, but, as long as the view does not remove the physical rest component of the Christian's Sabbath, I am interested in further thoughts on working like the Father and the Son work. Of course, the spiritual rest on the Sabbath is paramount.

I am troubled by Tom's usually less than charitable demeanour (not lately). Agreed that some of the ancient prophets were also less than gentlemen, and Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers. Yet, there is something less than helpful in Tom's approach to teaching what he believes to be important.

So, its a mixed reaction I have to Tom, but his "ministry" is appreciated, none-the-less.

bob_2 · 01-28-10 11:20 am

Don, I think the point of contention was when the New Covenant started, and whether scholars or others supported his position that it began at Christ's birth:

Hebrews 9:16In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.

Last edited by bob_2 (01-28-10 11:35 am)

bob · 01-28-10 9:25 pm

tom_norris wrote:

Bob said: Yes bob-2, Jesus was under the law teaching those who were under the law.
Tom said: While Jesus was born under the Old Covenant Jewish law, this does not mean he cannot teach the Gospel at the same time. In fact, this is what he did. While Jesus went to the Jews, he nonetheless preached the same basic Gospel to them as would go to the Gentiles later on. There are not two different Gospels, one for the Jews and another one for the Gentiles.

So, what was wrong with my statement? His teachings were to those under the law.

Jesus Gospel teaching is for both Jew and Gentile. And so too was his Gospel Sabbath. That is why he said it was for all humanity, not just for the Jews.

His teachings have application for all who live on this Earth. Jesus is the Word.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
The Greek word in this famous passage does not mean Jews, but all humanity. The use of such a specific word was not an accident. And neither is the unique word for the Sabbath in Hebrews 4: 9, which is a clear reference to the weekly Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus.

The Jews knew that the Sabbath was made for them and no one else. Had they interpreted Jesus words to have included Gentiles they would have had Him stoned on the spot. They were very observant of the Torah and knew that only those Gentiles who were circumcised could observe Jewish law.

Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

And that Rest is Jesus.

The Gospel Sabbath, as defined by Jesus in the Gospels, is the word of God for the Church. His weekly, literal, and reformed NC Sabbath is the only valid Lord’s Day for the church. Those that refute his Gospel Sabbath, also refute his Gospel, and thus they are “ruined” as their worthless theology crumbles around them when they need it the most. They are doomed.
At the end of time, the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath will become better understood and loudly proclaimed. Both doctrines work together as a package, never alone. Those that do not understand the Gospel correctly will not be able to comprehend the Gospel Sabbath. It is a doctrine for the saved; for those that embrace the genuine Jesus of the NT.

Pure conjecture. Not a speck of proof. Paul surely didn't see it your way. Jesus called him to spread the Word. With you conjecture you are calling him a liar.

Bob said: He taught that not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until he completely fulfilled all of it. That included the Sabbath.
Tom said: Jesus taught how the GOSPEL Sabbath was to be viewed and why. He reformed it from an OC doctrine full of rules and regulations into a NC doctrine that was very different, even the opposite, of what had been previously taught.
Those that claim to follow Christ must embrace his 7th day Gospel Sabbath. They can’t refute his view and then think they are Christian. This is delusional.

I challenge you to find the "OC doctrine full of rules and regulations". Actually there is very little said in the law about Sabbath keeping.

You are still making Paul a liar with your conjecture.

Bob said: When we meet as a church makes no difference to New Covenant believers.
Tom said: It is very apparent that most Laodiceans could care less about correct doctrine. I believe this is very true, and very sad. Every church and denomination is so full of error, tradition, and false doctrine, that few give a hoot about truth, nor would they know it if they heard it.
Very little makes “any difference to them,” which is why they have ALL been declared to be blind and naked, embracing one false doctrine after another.
Those who are so reckless and dismissive of correct doctrine are making a big mistake. Jesus never taught that his Sabbath doctrine “makes no difference.” Nor did he declare himself to be the “Lord of the Irrelevant Sabbath.” Or the “Lord of the Spiritual Sabbath.”
Jesus is head of the church. When he declares himself to be the Lord of the weekly Sabbath of the Jews, and then risks his life to teach a very new and different Sabbath for the church; his followers need to observe, listen, and learn.
Jesus, as Creator and Redeemer, is the author of the Gospel Sabbath. Those that claim to follow him cannot adopt or invent another version. Thus all the Sunday keepers and the SDA’s must repent for their various Sabbath errors. None of them have it right. Not one denomination!
Sabbath Not Removed
Many incorrectly think the Sabbath has been removed from the church because it is Jewish and part of the Old Covenant. They forget that the New Covenant is just as Jewish as the Old Covenant. This theological fact explains why the Sabbath is so important to both paradigms, and why it cannot be removed from either Covenant.
There is an OC Sabbath of Moses, and there is a NC, Gospel Sabbath of Jesus. All Christians must repudiate the former and only embrace the latter.

We are free to worship anytime. Paul told us Jesus real message and that was that the Sabbath is now merely a shadow and the reality is Jesus. I can and do worship Jesus anytime. Those who teach that we must somehow "keep" certain Sabbath hours still have one foot in the OC.

Bob said: We are under, as James so eloquently states, the Royal law of love.
Tom said: Be careful. While the Moral law has correctly been viewed as eternal, being the standard of behavior in both the Old and New Covenants, the Christian is never under law in the sense that he must obey the Moral law for salvation. No one can be saved with such legalistic theology.

There is no such term in the Bible as "moral law" It was all moral and as far as being "eternal" why did Jesus make changes to it in Matthew? We all know that the 10 cannot stand alone. They need the interpretation of many of the 603 laws to be able to be understood by the Israelites.

While the Gospel is salvific, the Gospel Sabbath is not.
The Gospel Sabbath is not a burden like the OC Sabbath. The NC Sabbath is a much better, and very different kind of Sabbath. It has so few rules and prohibitions that no Christian need ever be condemned for Sabbath breaking.
I suggest that you try to better understand the Gospel Story, including the NC Sabbath, before you criticize and dismiss it.

HA! That is really funny Tom. Again, tell us how many Sabbath rules you can find in the 613 laws. You make it sound like Jesus change a multitude of OC laws to make the fictitious "Gospel Sabbath"

tom_norris · 01-29-10 11:25 pm

Bob 2 said: Find anyone that suggests the New Covenant started at Jesus birth and maybe I will take a second look at your claims, but I can't find one other than yours.

Tom said: I think you are going to have a hard time finding anyone who thinks Jesus is an Old Covenant figure, or that his teachings were not for the New Covenant Church.

In fact, I think most everyone understands that the Gospel Story, which is a New Covenant paradigm, starts at the birth of Christ. Even most children understand that the Christmas Story is the beginning of the New Testament.

If you can find some authoritative theologians that embrace your views, I would take a second look. But I can’t find anyone, and neither can you.

However, there are two very highly respected theologians who have clearly placed the birth of Jesus as the starting place of the New Covenant Story. And billions have followed their view on this matter. Their names are Matthew and Luke. They wrote two of the four Gospels.

Thus millions of Bibles have been published that clearly place the birth of Christ as the beginning of the New Covenant. I doubt there was ever any Bible in the world that ever placed Matthew Gospel in the Old Testament. It is an absurdity and so too is your impossible position.

Just look at any Bible and see how Matthew is viewed by all to be in the NEW COVENANT, not the Old Covenant.

The apostles and the church fathers not only “suggest” that the NC started with the birth of Jesus, they made sure everyone knew this fact by placing this account in the front of the New Testament to make that very point.

The NT literally starts with Matthews’s account of the pedigree and birth of Jesus, the Messiah. THIS is the beginning of the Gospel Story. This is the beginning of the New Covenant.

Matt. 1:1 The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham:

Matt. 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations.

Matt. 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

Matt. 1:19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned 1ato send her away secretly.

Matt. 1:20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Matt. 1:21 “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Luke opens his Gospel account with two birth stories, one from John the Baptist and then the birth of Christ.

Luke 1:26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth,

Luke 1:27 to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Luke 1:28 And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

Luke 1:29 But she was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.

Luke 1:30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

Luke 1:31 “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

Luke 1:32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;

Luke 1:33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, band His kingdom will have no end.”

Both accounts of Jesus birth are in the NT, because Jesus is the head of the New Covenant. While you try and pretend he is the literal Sabbath day, you overlook the fact that he something much larger than the Sabbath. He is the New Covenant. He is the Gospel. He is our righteousness and salvation. But he is not the Sabbath, or any other day of the week.

So Matthew and Mark claim that the birth of Jesus is part of the NEW COVENANT. And so too is his Gospel teachings about many things, including the Sabbath.

Bob2 said: Your tone, attitude and negativity, turns the church off to you, and you have nothing to show for it. You need reform, not the Sabbath.

Tom said: Ha! So the church is fine and above criticism, but the critics are the problem? Hardly.

It is Jesus who sets the tone towards the Laodicean church. Not Tom Norris. Jesus is the one that blasted the last church, calling it blind and naked, needing to repent. I agree with Jesus’ view of things. So too should all that follow him.

Bob 2 said: The Sabbath was always a shadow of Jesus and the rest he provides in the NC with forgiveness of sins that the law could not provide.

Tom said: Ha! So you think the Sabbath was “always” a “shadow doctrine about rest and forgiveness?” What apostles can you bring forward to support your view?

Have you found any passages in the NT where Jesus is teaching that the weekly Sabbath of the Jews is going to be replaced with a doctrine about rest, --that also makes the Sabbath extinct for the church? Have you looked?

I have looked and there is no such passage. Jesus viewed the 7th day Sabbath a literal day, as did all Jews. It is a creation-based doctrine that Jesus claimed as his own special day. He claimed to be the Lord of no other day of the week.

Besides, the NT shows Jesus to be the co-creator, so why would he do away with such a visible sign to his own identity?

Jesus had no intention of spiritualizing the Sabbath away. Rather, he reformed it dramatically. He did not remove it or turn it into a Sunday Lord’s Day or into a spiritual allegory as you claim. Jesus taught how the church should view every 7th day.

What a pity that the SDA’s have no clue about the Gospel Sabbath. What a pity that no church or denomination understands the truth about the Gospel Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: There is no day in the New Covenant that is to be more sacred than another. You know that, yet insist on saying so.

Tom said: Jesus taught that the Sabbath day was special. Anyone that says otherwise is not reading the Gospel Story correctly. Nor are they reading the rest of the NT in the proper context.

Moreover, Jesus claimed to be the co-Creator, and thus the Sabbath is a memorial to his own power and authority.

The Lord’s Day is more special and “sacred” than any other day of the week. This does not mean what the SDA’s claim however. They think to keep the Sabbath “sacred” is to do so as if they were in the Old Covenant.

But Jesus is teaching the church about another Sabbath. One where “sacred” allows one to work without guilt or sin. They have not figured this out as yet.

Don, an SDA Pastor and Teacher said: I agree with Tom on some things.

Tom has helped me understand that the early Adventists identified the First and Second Angels' messages as historical events of the Millerite movement, and the Third Angel's Message was the Early Adventists two fold message of Revelation 14:12, i.e. keeping the commandments of God (emphasis on the Sabbath), and the faith of Jesus.

Tom said: Don’t forget that I have proven to all that the Judgment Pillar in the 1st Angels Message was NEVER the IJ, as the Takoma Park apologists taught and Glacier View affirmed. No SDA in the 19th century ever claimed this popular view that is so important to 20 the century Traditional Adventism.

Also, don’t forget that there is now another totally different way to view the PAJ. It is the LM, not Dan 8: 14. Thus the last church is not to be focused on how to pass a judgment based on their sanctification, but to repent forever embracing such an awful and distorted view of the Gospel and the Judgment.

There is a longs list of additional reforms that have been promoted, even as a comprehensive and clear path has emerged for all to see. Glad this process has kept your interest.

Don said: Also, Tom has been instrumental in keeping troubles of the 1888 times in focus. And, if we can believe his own account (which I do), he played a role in helping persuade the White Estate to release the "1888 materials" to the public.

Tom said: While it is true that the White Estate released this information. They did so in a manner that was calculated to deceive and misled. The materials were purposefully released in such poor shape; lacking any meaningful editorial explanation about their discovery, contents, or meaning, that no one knew what was actually taking place or why.

So the very release of this large 1888 collection was meant to keep Arthur White’s fraud from being detected. And it almost worked except Tom Norris got fed up with the outrageous and dishonest White Estate and went online to explain what was really going on in the White Estate. And now the truth is online for all to see.

There is much more that needs to be said about the White Estates massive fraud, which led the church into the trap of Glacier View and the repudiation of the Gospel and the very fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages. Unless this great error is corrected, the SDA church is doomed.

The White Estate must confess and repent for what they have done, and set the record straight. This is one of the major points of Adventist Reform.

Dom said: I don't agree with his stand on alcohol and the Lord's Supper, or his denouncing of tithing. Though, even there, Tom's insistence on such, has caused me to reexamine my views and adjust them somewhat.

Tom said: I have not presented “my views” but that of the NT. I am not an apostle. Nor am I trying to be novel or creative.

Those that think wine is grape juice and that tithing is a valid doctrine in the NC are not refuting my views, but the clear and irrefutable record of church history. They are misreading the Bible and misunderstanding the Gospel Story and the teachings of the NT as well as the Reformation.

Those that make their living from the tithe, like Pastor Don, have a very difficult time being honest or objective about this doctrine that sustains them. But very few normal people have any such problem. Once freed from the cultic propaganda of the SDA church and instructed in the Gospel, anyone can easily understand that the NT forbids tithing, and that Jesus never paid tithe, and neither did anyone else in the church.

We have proven this point over and over in the tithing thread, where your pro-tithing views were demolished for all to see.

So tithing is like ritual circumcision or the Old Covenant Sabbath. Banished from the church. All three of these are false doctrines and the SDA’s have embraced 2 out of the 3. Very bad score.

Don said: I don't fully understand his concept of the Christian mandate to work on the Sabbath, but, as long as the view does not remove the physical rest component of the Christian's Sabbath, I am interested in further thoughts on working like the Father and the Son work.

Tom said: No OC minded SDA can comprehend the Gospel Sabbath any more than could the 1st century Pharisees. Only when the Gospel is understood and embraced, and the authority of Jesus is acknowledged, can one understand the Gospel Sabbath.

While the OC Sabbath is very intuitive, filled with rules and regulations, including a strong prohibition against work, the NC Sabbath is the opposite. It is not intuitive. It is an oxymoron. It is a living conundrum. It does not make sense at first glance, and in fact sounds impossible and very wrong.

While one must “keep” the OC Sabbath. One can’t really “keep” the NC Sabbath. It has so few rules, if any, that it is not about keeping any of them.

The very phrase “working Sabbath” or working rest day seems wrong. But so what? Many things fundamental to the Christian faith (like the teaching that leaders must become servants, or the very cross event itself) seems strange and counter intuitive, and so too the NC Sabbath.

SDA’s raised under the OC Sabbath and the legalism of Traditional Adventism have to try extra hard to comprehend the Gospel and the Sabbath teachings of Jesus, as well as the many other things.

The NC Sabbath is very different from the OC Sabbath, even shockingly so. But Truth is what we want. The fact that it is stunning and strange, going against everything we were taught was right, is beside the point.

There should be no doubt that Jesus teaches a working Sabbath, even as he also teaches that one should go to the synagogue/ church for teaching and worship on the Sabbath day.

So the church is going to have work out these details once they get over the shock that they have most everything wrong and repent.

Don said: Of course, the spiritual rest on the Sabbath is paramount.

Tom said: Jesus seems to prefer an active Sabbath where people are doing all kinds of good things, even work. You don’t see him laying around sleeping or resting on the Sabbath. He was very active, and so were his disciples that were trying to keep up with him.

Don said: I am troubled by Tom's usually less than charitable demeanor (not lately). Agreed that some of the ancient prophets were also less than gentlemen, and Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers. Yet, there is something less than helpful in Tom's approach to teaching what he believes to be important.

Tom said: Don, you should be troubled by how tough I have been on you and your theological errors. Your views about the Gospel, tithe, the IJ, and wine, just to name a few, are very wrong, and yet you refuse to repent or to confess that Glacier View was wrong.

But then again, for you to really stand up and repudiate these errors would mean the loss of your job and the end of your career. So your views are naturally being distorted by your dishonest employer, the SDA church. Whether you admit it or not.

So who knows what you would really believe if you were a free, independent man?

As for me being too tough? This is the standard complaint from all that lose the discussion. After all, they have to find someone to blame for their inability to defend their dubious doctrines. Rather than just admit they are wrong and repent, they try and change the topic to cover their errors. Such lame complaints are worthless and laughable.

There is no nice way for a lamb to deal with a wolf. These two creatures are opposites in every way. One is on a migration to the New Jerusalem, while the other is stalking the flock and trying to divide, control, and mislead so that they can feed off the flock.

The SDA organization is so dishonest, corrupt, and full of false doctrine and fraudulent history that all must be warned in the most blunt terms. Things are so bad and the crisis so deep, that only straight, blunt truth must be spoken.

This makes many uncomfortable because it exposes them as either incompetent sheep or wicked wolves. But too bad.

It is time for everyone to know the full truth about Ellen White and 1888 as well as the fact that Dr. Ford was correct at Glacier View. Much more so than many understand.

This is no time for double-talk and myth making. It is time to stop this wicked charade that the White Estate, Review, and GC has played on the Adventist Community. The Adventist Movement must return to a standard of honesty and integrity, including an attitude of searching for truth.

The SDA’s must clean up the wicked White Estate and correct the record so that people can know that the real Ellen White did drink wine, and did not fully support the doctrine of tithe, and repudiated Uriah Smiths theology that became the very basis for Traditional Adventism and Glacier View.

Ellen White has much to say to the Adventist Community, but the White Estate has not let her speak. This is outrageous and criminal. Ellen White deserves better and so too does the Adventist Community.

Don, you should really be troubled by the fact that the leaders have no interest in discussion, study, truth or reform. For them, their own propaganda is considered truth, even when they know it is worthless fiction and dishonest theology.

They stay away from Adventist Reform because they know they are guilty as charged. They know that they cannot defend their errors associated with 1888 or Glacier View, and that the White Estate has been caught by Tom Norris perpetrating a massive publishing fraud in the basement of the General Conference, its parent company.

They also know that tithe is a false doctrine and that there is no basis for its practice in the NT. But to make such an admission at this point, on top of all their other scandals, is to humiliate themselves beyond repair and lose their positions as well as their good names.

So they naturally pretend all is well, when they know their doctrine cannot withstand investigation. Thus they have become great liars in the name of God. Just like the Jews.

This is the same way the Jewish leaders reasoned. They did not seek for truth in the Gospel teachings of Jesus. No, they viewed how his teaching would affect their lives and the present positions. They made their assessments based on how the Gospel would change their lives, and they quickly concluded they liked the status quo.

As soon as they realized Jesus was promoting a paradigm change that would remove many (all the Levites for example) of their views and religious jobs, -that was the end of their toleration with this new and different theologian.

Make no mistake; the Jewish theologians understood that Jesus was doing away with many of their Old Covenant traditions, including their positions and influence in the community.

John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

In other words, the Pharisees were far more worried about their own personal positions and income than truth. So the very Gospel that was meant to save them became their enemy, even as the teachings of Jesus threatened to take food off their tables. Money became more important than truth or the Word of God.

The SDA’s are playing the same game.

If tithe is questioned, that is the end of the discussion. They cannot comprehend religion without it, or how the church would function without this cultic cash cow for the leaders to feast upon. So rather than find the Gospel and admit the truth about tithe, they embrace the status quo and lose Eternal Life.

Thus for the SDA pastor today, money and position matters most. The fact that tithe is a totally false and forbidden doctrine in the church is beside the point of their cultic tradition. Short-term survival trumps Gospel doctrine for both the Jews and the SDA’s.

The love of money, power, and position drove the Jewish leaders to kill their Messiah and reject his Gospel, including his new Sabbath teachings. The SDA’s are guilty of the same sin.

Don said: So, it’s a mixed reaction I have to Tom, but his "ministry" is appreciated, none-the-less.

Tom said: Don, I must admit this is a surprisingly good review from an SDA Pastor who still defends Traditional Adventism. Especially because I am so hard on your SDA views.

As I have said before, I thank you for being brave enough to try and defend Traditional Adventism. It has no doubt helped many to better understand the need for Adventist Reform and the utter futility to trying to defend TA.

However, everyone should know that there is a great “shadow church” of SDA’s that exist around the world. These are the refugees from Traditional Adventism who have correctly left the confused and corrupt SDA church over the past 30 years.

This large and growing group seems to be very receptive to Adventist Reform, even relieved because they can now better understand what has really taken place in SDA history and why.

The present farce cannot continue. It is only a matter of time before everyone finds out how low the present SDA leaders have fallen. They hardly have a true doctrine left, even as they work to hide a massive fraud that has been ongoing for decades.

What is the point of pretending any more? The cover up in the White Estate has been exposed for all to see. It is time for Adventist Reform. It is time to clean up the White Estate and the Review.

More Discussion about the Gospel Sabbath

Bob said: So, what was wrong with my statement? His teachings were to those under the law.

Tom said: Jesus was born a Jew, under the law. But his Gospel teaching (to those under the OC) was new, different, and superior to the Old Covenant.

Jesus teaching represents the NEW COVENANT. His Gospel teaching is the basis for the NC Church.

Bob said: His teachings have application for all who live on this Earth. Jesus is the Word.

Tom said: Jesus teachings are for the Church. The world will never listen.

Bob said: The Jews knew that the Sabbath was made for them and no one else. Had they interpreted Jesus words to have included Gentiles they would have had Him stoned on the spot. They were very observant of the Torah and knew that only those Gentiles who were circumcised could observe Jewish law.

Tom said: Wrong. The Jews did not exclude uncircumcised Gentiles from the synagogue on Sabbath as you claim. Where do you come up with your information?

In fact, it was this Gentile, Sabbath observing group that Paul was targeting for the Gospel, even as it is this group that evolved into the Gentile church. There was always a group of Gentiles that were associated with the Jews and shared their worship and Sabbath.

http://www.pohick.org/sts/god-fearer.html

http://jewishrootscx.netfirms.com/godfe … body_2.htm

http://journalofbiblicalstudies.org/Iss … fearer.pdf

So your information and premise is wrong; and so too your insinuation that the Jews did not want to stone Jesus over his Sabbath views. They did. Jesus went to the cross because of his Sabbath teaching more than anything else. The Jewish leaders hated his Gospel and his Gospel Sabbath.

Be careful that you do not make the same mistake!

Bob said about the Sabbath: And that Rest is Jesus.

Tom said: Jesus is our spiritual and Sabbath rest, but not the 7th day of the week. He is not a day, nor did he ever teach such a concept or doctrine. He REFORMED the 7th day for the church. He did not remove it or claim he was the fulfillment of the Gospel Sabbath.

Bob said: Pure conjecture. Not a speck of proof. Paul surely didn't see it your way. Jesus called him to spread the Word. With you conjecture you are calling him a liar.

Tom said: The Sabbath teachings of Jesus, which are contained in all four of the Gospels, are not “conjecture” or myth. They are the Word of God for the Church. This is the point many fail to understand.

Paul does not refute the Gospel Sabbath as you claim, even as the NT record shows him acknowledging it in front of the Gentiles and using it as a day to publicly preach the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Those that refuse to embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Jesus are guilty of false doctrine. They are calling the Gospel writers and even Jesus himself; liars- because they will not believe there is a NC, 7th day Sabbath for the Church.

Bob said: I challenge you to find the "OC doctrine full of rules and regulations". Actually there is very little said in the law about Sabbath keeping.

Tom said: The OT contains plenty of Sabbath rules. And the Jews threw these rules in Jesus face to condemn and silence his new Gospel Sabbath, which they refused to consider or understand.

Ex. 35:2 “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Ex. 35:3 “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

Deut. 5:14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

Neh. 13:15 In those days I saw in Judah some who were treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in sacks of grain and loading them on donkeys, as well as wine, grapes, figs and all kinds of loads, and they brought them into Jerusalem on the sabbath day. So I admonished them on the day they sold food.

Neh. 13:16 Also men of Tyre were living there who imported fish and all kinds of merchandise, and sold them to the sons of Judah on the sabbath, even in Jerusalem.

Neh. 13:17 Then I reprimanded the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this evil thing you are doing, by profaning the sabbath day?

Neh. 13:18 “Did not your fathers do the same, so that our God brought on us and on this city all this trouble? Yet you are adding to the wrath on Israel by profaning the sabbath.”

Jer. 17:21 ‘Thus says the LORD, “Take heed for yourselves, and do not carry any load on the sabbath day or bring anything in through the gates of Jerusalem.

Jer. 17:22 “You shall not bring a load out of your houses on the sabbath day nor do any work, but keep the sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers.

Jer. 17:27 “But if you do not listen to Me to keep the sabbath day holy by not carrying a load and coming in through the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates and it will devour the palaces of Jerusalem and not be quenched.”’”

Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.

Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”

Luke 6:2 But some of the Pharisees said, “Why do you do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

The OT is full of Sabbath rules and regulations and so too are the other writings of the Jews.

Bob said: We are free to worship anytime.

Tom said: While all are free to worship God 24/ 7, none are free to repudiate the Sabbath teachings of Jesus. There is an “obedience of Faith” that comes along with the Gospel, and Jesus’ NC Sabbath teachings are included in the duty and obligation of the church.

Rom. 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among call the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

Rom. 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

Bob said: Paul told us Jesus real message and that was that the Sabbath is now merely a shadow and the reality is Jesus.

Tom said: Jesus speaks for himself and God almighty. He does not need Paul to explain his “real” Sabbath message.

Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath, much less the Creator of the world, of which the Sabbath is a memorial. Neither is Paul the head of the church, or its Savior. He is bound by the teachings of Jesus like all others that claim to follow the Gospel.

Does Paul instruct Christ about anything? Did Paul die on the cross for anyone?

So why do you try to understand the Sabbath teaching of Jesus from Paul? A former defender of the OC Sabbath, and a former enemy of the Gospel?

The church must FIRST be united behind the teachings of Jesus. Anyone, including the apostles, that fail to uphold the teachings of Christ are themselves condemned.

Of course this happened when James and Peter were caught embracing the legalism of the Judaizers. Paul publicly condemned their “distorted” Gospel because it did not square with what Jesus had taught him by personal revelation.

So Paul knew, and everyone knew, the Jesus is the supreme teacher and authority for all doctrine. Including the Sabbath doctrine. And so it is today.

Thus, anyone that wants to understand the Gospel Sabbath for the church MUST go to Jesus in the Gospels and learn about this stunning new doctrine that will expose every denomination in the world as “wretched, blind, and naked.”

1Cor. 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Cor. 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.

1Cor. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

1Cor. 1:13 1Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

1Cor. 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,

1Cor. 1:15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.

Jesus is the head of the church and its foundation. He is the grand theologian and teacher who speaks for God almighty. His words in the Gospels are to be understood as the Word of God and the duty of all in the church.

The fact of the matter is that Jesus taught a weekly Gospel Sabbath for the church. Paul never refuted Jesus’ Sabbath teaching and at all times conformed to them. Those that want to understand the Gospel Sabbath MUST go to Jesus in the Gospels and find it.

Listen to Paul submit to the teachings of Jesus and refute those who try to follow him, or any other disciples instead of Christ.

Listen to Paul and repent for your false Sabbath views, and for not paying attention to the Sabbath teaching of Jesus.

1Cor. 3:4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?

1Cor. 3:5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.

1Cor. 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.

1Cor. 3:7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

1Cor. 3:8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

1Cor. 3:9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

1Cor. 3:10 ¶ According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.

1Cor. 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Cor. 3:21 So then let no one boast in men. For all things belong to you,

1Cor. 3:22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you,

1Cor. 3:23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

No man can match the comprehensive and edifying teachings of Jesus. Whose Gospel teachings include the New Covenant Sabbath.

Bob said: I can and do worship Jesus anytime. Those who teach that we must somehow "keep" certain Sabbath hours still have one foot in the OC.

Tom said: Those who repudiate the Gospel teachings of Jesus, including his clear views about the NC Sabbath, are not following the genuine Christ. They are worshipping a fraud and following a false prophet.

Sorry to be the one to inform you, but most people are following a false Christ, a Jesus of their own making, and the NC Sabbath doctrine is one easy way to expose the counterfeit.

Bob said; There is no such term in the Bible as "moral law" It was all moral and as far as being "eternal" why did Jesus make changes to it in Matthew?

Tom said: If you pay close attention to what Jesus is saying you would have seen that the Sabbath law of the 10 Commandments had a built in exception for the Priests. And it was this exception that Jesus correctly used as the theological basis for his Gospel Sabbath.

Bob said: We all know that the 10 cannot stand alone. They need the interpretation of many of the 603 laws to be able to be understood by the Israelites.

Tom said: The church is not to follow the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews, but the New Covenant Sabbath as taught by Jesus. His interpretation of the Sabbath is all that matters.

Here is where the SDA’s have made a huge error. As Judaizers and legalists, they have embraced the Sabbath of Moses and the Pharisees. Then they went around and tried to get all others to follow their error.

They have failed to understand the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath. Here is yet another reason why they must repent in humiliation and tears. They have the wrong Sabbath. And so too does anyone that embraces Sunday as the Lord’s Day or the Jesus is the Sabbath, Every Day Sabbath view.

There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath.

Bob said: HA! That is really funny Tom. Again, tell us how many Sabbath rules you can find in the 613 laws. You make it sound like Jesus changed a multitude of OC laws to make the fictitious "Gospel Sabbath"

Tom said: I admit there is some humor in the fact that the SDA’s have made fools of themselves by promoting the wrong Gospel and the wrong Sabbath. It is pretty funny, as well as ironic, and also very sad. And the same can be said about all the Sunday keeping churches as well. They are also very wrong and confused about the Gospel Sabbath and theology.

So for all those that do not like organized religion, the joke is going to be a big one on all organized religion when everyone finds out how incompetent and wrong they have been about so many things.

In the last days, the Gospel Sabbath will stun every church and expose them as full of much false doctrine and myth. Who knew that the SDA’s would also be part of all those that had the wrong Sabbath? (That was not supposed to be how the story went. Oh well. Surprise!)

The Sabbath rules changed when the Levitical paradigm was replaced with the priesthood of all believers. This is what forces a change in the way the NC Sabbath is viewed, even as it makes tithe an impossible and forbidden doctrine.

In conclusion, it is amazing and stunning that the SDA’s have embraced the WRONG Sabbath. It is also disconcerting to see them so divided and confused about such a fundamental point that has been the focus of their reform based mission.

Let all in the Adventist Community repudiate the OC Sabbath, along with the Levitical doctrine of tithe, and the absurdity of the IJ. These errors from Traditional Adventism, along with others, must be removed forever, replaced with Gospel teaching from the NT.

Let all SDA’s embrace the true pillars of the Three Angels Messages, as well go forward to develop the 4th Angels Messages, which will be based upon the genuine Gospel, which includes the 7th day, Reformed Sabbath of Jesus.

It is time for honest, comprehensive, and dramatic Reform. The stage is set for a paradigm change within the Advent Movement. It is inevitable.

Tom Norris, for genuine Gospel change within the church

bob_2 · 01-30-10 1:06 pm

Tom, to believe just the first few paragraphs of what you wrote, I would have to throw out many Bible texts. I'm done responding when the Bible is not respected but your opinion is held up over sacred scripture.

Last edited by bob_2 (01-30-10 1:16 pm)

don · 01-30-10 5:12 pm

Re: the two covenants and when one began and the other ended:

A covenant is an arrangement set up by God for the welfare of His people. In the covenant originating at Mt. Sinai there were priests and rituals and patterns of problem solving.

In Jesus' life, he honors the role of the priests, rituals and problem solving patterns. Yet, he refused to acknowledge the role of the oral law. This upset the Pharisees.

After Jesus died and went to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father, we see His spirit-led church unattentive to the levitical priests' authority. This was in opposition to rituals central to the earlier covenant such as cirumcision and the celebration of feast days. When a persistent problem occurs in the fledgling Church, they don't turn to the High Priest as legislated in Deuteronomy 17. Rather, they take the problem to the Church in Jerusalem.

It is obvious that Believer patterns changed from before the formation of the Apostolic Church to after its formation.

Some seem to say that since Jesus spoke before the Apostolic era, His messages are in effect gone with the prior covenant. This is unacceptable. Jesus is the spokesperson for all the Covenants. There are eternal principles true for all administrations. Jesus' actions are for us to imitate. His words are for us to follow. His person, we acknowledge as God; to be worshipped and adored.

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