You are not logged in.
I see your point Irene. If only you could be circumcised....... Or maybe realize that the Sabbath of the Israelites is just good history and we are free in Jesus. His yoke is light and He is our rest.
Since Adventism is out of the formative years they are not subject to the council of the prophet, so have a blast. Cook your peas and don't have any reservations about doing so. It is so much faster now than it was way back then.....1961 when our SDA pastor told us it was sinful.
Offline
Don, think about what you just wrote:
Jesus brought a wonderful sense of freedom to His Sabbath observance. He lived by principles not by regulations. The Mosaic Sabbath regulations were given, it seems, to help an unruly mass of people find order in their lives. Perhaps Ellen White's role was similar in the formative years of Adventism.
1961 was soon after We joined the SDA Church. It was our formative years, so the pastor was giving us all the instructions found in the writings because we were new? The others present, you know the old members, could just wink when they heard his words? Now, all the old members have served their time and have new freedoms?
Is all this like when Mrs. White was telling everyone not to eat meat while her servants were serving her a platter of oysters or other delicious meat dishes? I wonder if she was taking freedoms on Sabbath that she counseled others not to take? We will never know and who really cares.
Offline
Jesus was circumcised as an infant. The four Gospels do not once report Jesus favorably supporting the practice. I submit that the Gospels were written to instruct and inform believers. It seems contrary to the foundation of Christianity to say that the validity of the TEACHINGS of Jesus ceased when He died. This does not make sense to me and I consider such an idea to be a serious affront to Jesus.
Can you show one TEACHING, other than the Sabbath, that Christians consider done away? I can't. The closest is where He instructs the leper to go present himself to the priest and where He says that the priests sit in Moses seat. In His sermon on the mount, Jesus address the sixth commandment and the seventh commandment. In Matthew 15 he defends the fifth commandment. Christians never say that these do not apply to the Church.
Further, the book of Acts clearly deals with the circumcision issue. Their first church council took action regarding it. There is no such council decision regarding the Sabbath. Romans 14 and Colossians 2, IMO, are not definitive. Not like the Acts 15 decision. Their is no clear Scriptural support for those that contend that the Seventh-day Sabbath was an issue in the apostolic church. Leviticus 23 identifies sabbaths other than the Sabbath of the LORD.
Again, I submit that when Jesus instructed about the Sabbath, it was recorded because the writer considered Sabbath instruction important for the church.
Since Adventism is out of the ;formative years they are not subject to the council of the prophet, so have a blast.
When I read Ellen White's counsels, I note, first, that she did not write to me, but to someone in her day. So, when I read what she says, I look for the principles she upholds. Also, the Gospel message provides the foundation of my thought. Jesus instructions about the Sabbath guide my reading of Ellen White's counsel, not the other way around.
Ellen White taught that the truth is progressive. I believe that my integrating the principles of the Sabbath as I do with the Gospel is defensible. I have noted a tendency within Adventism to get stricter and stricter with Ellen White's writings; almost like we are a church which caters to the obsessive-compulsive personality. We need to move on from regulated living to principled living. I suggest that Ellen White needed to learn how to do that as well.
Further: I have noted that when a reasonable explanation is given to matters such as the Sabbath, those who have given up on it make light of the reasonable view. I suggest that such individuals have placed Ellen White on too high a platform. Now they have given up. Yes, many pastors, in the past, have dealt with the Sabbath in a regulated Judaic fashion. When Tom makes a difference between the Gospel Sabbath and the Jewish Sabbath, he is on to something and has my support on that plank of his Reform message.
Offline
If only you could be circumcised.......
Don said:
Jesus was circumcised as an infant. The four Gospels do not once report Jesus favorably supporting the practice.
So do you think He disfavored the act? I dont get your point.
I submit that the Gospels were written to instruct and inform believers.
And I submit that it is recorded to give the world the plan of salvation. Actually there is very little instruction other than the law of love.
It seems contrary to the foundation of Christianity to say that the validity of the TEACHINGS of Jesus ceased when He died.
This does not make sense to me and I consider such an idea to be a serious affront to Jesus.
Don, what does all you wrote have anything to do with what I wrote to Irene? Anyway, what I wrote to her was just buffoonery.
Can you show one TEACHING, other than the Sabbath, that Christians consider done away? I can't
You bet I can. The whole Torah was done away. In Matt 5 Jesus said the law Torah would remain until all was fulfilled. Why would you ever consider the fulfillment to include all but the 10, clean and unclean meat and tithing modified at that laws.
Further, the book of Acts clearly deals with the circumcision issue. Their first church council took action regarding it. There is no such council decision regarding the Sabbath. Romans 14 and Colossians 2, IMO, are not definitive. Not like the Acts 15 decision. Their is no clear Scriptural support for those that contend that the Seventh-day Sabbath was an issue in the apostolic church. Leviticus 23 identifies Sabbaths other than the Sabbath of the LORD.
I would submit to you that if you really believe what you just wrote that you should go back to the Torah and glean all the 316 laws that pertain including the feast days and new moons. Paul didn't specifically bring them up in Act 15 either and Col. and Romans are not definitive.
Again, I submit that when Jesus instructed about the Sabbath, it was recorded because the writer considered Sabbath instruction important for the church.
Yes, the Jewish church.
When I read Ellen White's counsels, I note, first, that she did not write to me, but to someone in her day. So, when I read what she says, I look for the principles she upholds. Also, the Gospel message provides the foundation of my thought. Jesus instructions about the Sabbath guide my reading of Ellen White's counsel, not the other way around.
I notice that most of of the instruction in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not written to me. I think I get it now, You read the council given by Mrs. White and compare it with the foundations given in the Gospels. If you deem that the council she gives does not apply you ignore it. That is convenient.
We need to move on from regulated living to principled living. I suggest that Ellen White needed to learn how to do that as well.
Further: I have noted that when a reasonable explanation is given to matters such as the Sabbath, those who have given up on it make light of the reasonable view. I suggest that such individuals have placed Ellen White on too high a platform. Now they have given up. Yes, many pastors, in the past, have dealt with the Sabbath in a regulated Judaic fashion. When Tom makes a difference between the Gospel Sabbath and the Jewish Sabbath, he is on to something and has my support on that plank of his Reform message.
Don, the church has placed her where she is now. People are like robots just drinking all the koolade provided by the church. Just because you think the way you do doesn't change how the church operates. We who have left because of not believing all the SOP are the martyrs. Those who chose to stay and not rebel are still believed, by the hierarchy, to be enjoying the
Offline
Don, think about what you just wrote:
I see your point, Bob. Jesus explained the Mosaic system. He pointed back to Creation as the ideal and said that the Mosaic Law did not reflect God's ideal but rather His accommodation of hard-hearted people.
Paul calls the Mosaic system a school master or guardian until Christ. Now Christ is our guardian. He manages us differently than Moses did.
I submit that to observe the Sabbath is still God's will but the Mosaic system is no longer our guardian making sure we observe it properly. Jesus has taken the place of the Mosaic system. He instructs us, gives us His spirit and then sends us out to live for Him.
I am under Jesus management not Moses. The principles of God's kingdom remain the same. The management style has changed.
Offline
Nine of the Ten Commandments are based on; They are to be obeyed at all times and all places.
The Fourth is NOT a principle but it is very time-specific: It cannot be observed on any other day of the week; ergo, it is not a law based on general principles, but applies very specifically to only time.
Have any read the Review article written by Angel Rodriquez? He has written an entire book on jewelry a book worthy of reminding Adventists about its sinfulness? and an article on proper Sabbath observance, specifically, eating out.
As a very gracious gesture to the women, who are nearly always the cooks in a family, if the Sabbath is to be a rest it can only be so by enjoying a meal prepared by others, not herself.
Regardless of prior preparations, there is heating, serving, dishes, clean up, etc. Fellowship is much more pleasant in a relaxed atmosphere afforded by a restaurant. If eating out is improper for Sabbath, why is it not improper as a principle any day of the week?
Offline
Yesterday at church, our pastor announced that the youth group of the Lutheran church which we rent from, was selling enchiladas for a trip to New Orleans with many other churches.
I bought enchiladas in support of their programs, and I believe it was a very nice gesture for our pastor to encourage our buying food for their mission trip. WDYT?
Offline
I'd just like to express my feeling pertaining to EGWs teachings on the Sabbath, tithing and a host of other things that she thinks that she has been given the right to teach. I consider such an idea to be a serious affront to Jesus.
I think that when the scripures say God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things through whom also He made the world Heb. 1:12
And she says:
In ancient times God spoke through the mouths of prophets and apostles. In these last days He speaks to them by the Testimonies of His Spirit
Testimonies Vol.4, P.148; Vol.5 P.661
That she stands in the Holy place of Jesus Christ and pompously mocks God and the Holy Scriptures. I find this offensive, as Jesus is both my saviour and my elder brother. Her twisting of scripture and the cultic oppression and distresses she causees in the lives of not a few are an affront and an abomination before all heaven.
Offline
In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them by the testimonies of His Spirit. There was never a time when God instructed His people more earnestly than He instructs them now concerning His will and the course that He would have them pursue.
Ellen White seems to have been a willing and quick learner. Obviously, she was not a theologian or Bible scholar. Her 1881 use of Hebrews 1:2 above in blue is problematic. I think she came to realize it. Notice these two quotes where she makes use of the same text, but uses it more conventionally.
Spalding and Magan Collection 1907, page 415, paragraph 5
God who at sundry times and in diverse manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,whom he hath appointed heir of all things; by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high. Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. . . . But to which of the angels said He at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister unto them that shall be heirs of salvation?
The ministration of Christ is ever to be kept before the minds of the people; His efficiency is that to which they should ever be directed. Ministers in word and doctrine are not to seek in human wisdom to supply the necessities of these souls; they are not to direct and guide. By doing this, they educate the flock of God to depend on human beings who are liable to err. If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. Here is marked out a straight path to the world's Redeemer, which every soul may take. Christ tasted death that every man might be partaker of the blessings of the gospel. Then let all, experienced and inexperienced, be directed to the source of all efficiency and power. Christ has promised to be our wisdom, our righteousness, our sanctification and redemption.
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials 1987, page 673, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Living Channels of Light
What has not the Lord God of Israel done for his people? He has given them his word; he has followed them with his testimonies, which have warned, reproved, rebuked, encouraged; he has given signs; he has given precious promises; and how few give him praise or glory! Many think if they tolerate the movings and workings of God in their behalf, they ought to be commended.
Oh, how few really know God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent! He has spoken by prophets and apostles of what will be in the future. He has given living testimonies of himself in these last days when he spake unto us by his Son, and yet it is a truth that pains my soul, that the Lord is grieved with hard hearts and unteachable minds.
How few believe and repent! to how few is the arm of the Lord revealed! And go, get thee. . . unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord God; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear. All will come to a decision to declare wholly for God or for Baal. God has sent to his people testimonies of truth and righteousness, and they are called to lift up Jesus, and to exalt his righteousness.
Offline
Don, I just gleaned this from your post in another thread. Using a previous statement of yours,
When I read Ellen Whites counsels, I note, first, that she did not write to me, but to someone in her day. So, when I read what she says, I look for the principles she upholds. Also, the Gospel message provides the foundation of my thought. Jesus instructions about the Sabbath guide my reading of Ellen White's counsel, not the other way around. Mrs. White in the following statement doesnt give you this wiggle room. Note, why would you need Mrs. Whites council if you are reading Jesus instructions? Why would you need the lesser light to find the greatest light?
I was instructedthat I must ever urge upon these who profess to believe the truth, the necessity of <b>practicing this truth. This means sanctification, and sanctification means the culture and training of every capability for the Lords service. 1MR 141.5
Side note: This is a first, sanctification means the culture and training of every capability for the Lord&s service. And I was led to believe sanctification means purification.
The truth meaning what she wrote. She admitted that the Holy Spirit led her in all she wrote.
I have written many books, and they have been given a wide circulation. Of myself I could not have brought out the truths in these books, but the Lord has given me the help of His Holy Spirit. These books, giving the instruction that the Lord has given me during the past sixty years, contain light from heaven, and will bear the test of investigation. 1MR 140.5
Yet, a growing number of SDAs are like Don, they only glean what they deem to fit into their perception. Others disregard her altogether, but wont take a stand. Someone very dear to me is among the latter.
Offline
Note, why would you need Mrs. Whites council if you are reading Jesus instructions? Why would you need the lesser light to find the greatest light?
Christs church is a fellowship of believers; some have the spiritual gift of prophecy. God does not give the gift of prophecy if it is unnecessary. See 1 Corinthians 12-14.
Offline
Yet, a growing number of SDAs are like Don, they only glean what they deem to fit into their perception.
This is mostly accurate. I would say that I glean what impresses me. I actually allow EGW to affect my perception. I like her ideas most of the time.
Her use of Hebrews 1:1-3, as discussed recently, was unfortunate, IMO. I see evidence that she thought so, too, and tried to correct her usage.
I like to view my life sitting at a table with others. Ellen White sits there. So do you.
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif
The more I search out the actual essays the EGW wrote, the more at ease I am allowing her a place at my table.
Offline
Cadge wrote in
http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus … 8#POST1138
that Ellen White's use of Hebrews 1:2 was an affront to Jesus.
In response, Don wrote in
http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus … 5#POST1145
another post that Ellen White seemed to come to realize that Hebrews 1:2 should be reserved for Jesus Christ. Her later use of the text indicates as much. In this post, I present a question based on two scriptures:
Hebrews 1:1-2
Acts 2:16-18
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
6 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17
In the last days God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy
I agree that Hebrews 1:2 should be kept focused on Jesus, but this passage does not rule out the role of prophesy in the last days. How can these two passages be reconciled?
Offline
Cadge says that the former days were before the Cross and the last days were/are all that time span after. The incident in Acts 2 had to do with the apostles. They were sitting together in a house and the Holy Spirit came in and filled the whole house and set upon them with the appearance of tongues of fire. They then went out to speak with the gift of being able to speak in languages that they were not learned in, so as to communicate the Gospel to all. When accused of being drunk Peter claimed that it was to early to be drinking unfermented grape juice, which somehow had the ability to get one inhebriated back then, and that what the accusers were witnessing was the fulfillment of the last days prophecy as spoken by Joel.
It then goes on to say that your sons and daughters will prophesy teach and your young MEN will see visions and your old MENwill dream dreams. And BOTH men and woman will prophecy in those days.
And just in case you were curious, Cadge believes that the ultimate fulfillment of this prophecy will take place just as the great time of trouble begins and be carried out by the 144,000 through it while they preach the three angel messages of revelation 14 and into the message to the churches to come out in Revelation 18. Now, go ahead and ask me where they are going to come out to.
The scriptures warn us that Satan would disguise himself as an angel of light a messenger. I find it interesting that EGW comes on the scene just as the feminist movement comes into vogue. Yet, Ellen White says nothing about this phenomenon that has caused so much disruption in the chain of command that God set up in both the church, the family, and general society at large and being an enormous factor in the cause of divorce. Talk about an entering wedge. Do you think that she had any female sympathy in building her church?
Where does it say that women would see visions and have dreams? Where elsewhere in the Bible do you see a woman having dreams and visions as Ellen White has claimed to have been given? Nowhere! Or can we just change scripture around anywhere to suit our fancy? If so, then we need to pay a lot more attention to John Alfke.
Cadge Message edited by cadge on February 03, 2009
Offline
Chain of command??? Cough, choke, sputter...now you're scaring me.
Offline
Don,
I agree that Hebrews 1:2 should be kept focused on Jesus, but this passage does not rule out the role of prophesy in the last days. How can these two passages be reconciled?</font> <BR> <BR>
The entire word of God was divided into two parts in the OT - THE LAW and THE PROPHETS. There is a difference between being a prophet in line with the prophets responsible for the OT prophetic books; and to be able to PROPHESY.
The verb, PROPHESY, means to take off the cover or, to reveal. The HS is promised by Christ as leading Christians into truth. This is promised to all Christians, not a select few, or one select person in the entire time span since Christ was here. If we agree that prophesy is more than predicting the future, what this is saying is that men (and women will be able to decipher the meaning of God's word in its various applications and situations the church finds itself to be in. That is the gift of prophesy. However, Christ was the last PROPHET, as in the line of prophets. The prophets of the OT spoke what was revealed to them, while Christ spoke with His life and death.
The episode on the Mount of Transfiguration explains the situation even further. Jesus was on the mount with Moses representing THE LAW& and Elijah representing THE PROPHETS. Moses and Elijah disappeared, leaving Christ alone on the mount. The voice came and declared,THIS IS MY BELOVED SON, LISTEN TO HIM. There is no clearer picture of Christs superiority over the OT including the Law and the Prophets than this little vignette on the mountain.
Offline
Cadge, you asked
Or can we just change scripture around anywhere to suit our fancy?
Yes, it can be done and has been done.
BTW, haven't you heard of The Clear Word Bible??
Offline
Offline
Cell Churches 101: Setting up your own religious pyramid scheme
How cell-churches work is actually rather simple--the best model to look at, in fact, is probably the plethora of affinity schemes and similar pyramid schemes promoted throughout the dominionist community.
At top, you have the pastor. Below him, he is shepherd over the assistant pastors; these are in turn shepherds over the deacons; the deacons are in turn shepherds over the small-group managers, these in turn are shepherds over smaller groups, and so on until you get down to home churches or cell churches of around six people, including a shepherd.
Those of you who are familiar with pyramid schemes and multi-level marketing have seen this before. Namely, everyone reports to or gives money to the upstream and they report to the upstream and so on and so on till you hit the very head of the organisation.
This sort of control is frighteningly effective in not only maintaining a very coercive atmosphere in a church that promotes cell churches and effectively squelching dissent, it also is known now to cause actual psychological damage. Much of the reason that discipling and shepherding groups are not promoted by those names anymore is due to some very bad press resulting from coercive religious groups that used the tactics--notably the International Church of Christ and in particular Maranatha an early Joel;s Army group that was so abusive that it was eventually banned from two separate state college campuses; after a considerable amount of publicity, it folded and reorganised under the names Morning Star International and later Every Nation. Maranatha in particular is surprisingly connected to the beginnings of political dominionism in the US.
A particularly damning psychological study mentioned in The Discipling Dilemma has noted that longterm involvement in churches that use ell churches as a method of control actually causes longterm personality changes. Among other things, two particular groups known to have used coercive discipling and shepherding the Boston Church of Christ and Maranatha were shown to have members with personality types that changed over time on all scales of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator to ENFJ including a number of complete reversals from ISTP to ENFJ, which does not generally happen without some coercion--it's roughly the psychological equivalent of making a left-handed kid write with their right hand or vice versa and the same pattern was noticed with other groups known to be coercive religious groups notably the Moonies and Scientology but was not noted with mainstream Christian denominations used as a control.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/11/16111/6207
Lawsy, don't get sucked into that Chain of Command bidness!!!
Offline
When asked about Bill Gothard, both Stafford and Forman are stumped. Neither did his homework on the curriculum — they've never heard of Gothard and weren't aware that the man behind Character First! is an evangelical minister. When told about Gothard's emphasis on the chain of command, Stafford immediately recognizes the danger in such teachings. I can see how that could lead to a continuation of child abuse, he says.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/i13.html" target="_blank
Offline
Talibangelicals!
The Discipling Dilemma
Flavil R. Yeakley, Jr., Editor
Howard W. Norton
Don E. Vinzant, Gene Vinzant
The discipling movement has appeared in several religious groups under various labels. Several denominations have experienced growth as a result of the discipling movement in various places throughout the world.
Those same denominations, however, have been troubled by the doctrines and practices associated with this movement.
The word discipling is used in this movement to mean much more than making converts. It is used primarily to describe a system of intense training and close personal supervision of the Christians being discipled.
Disciples are regarded as being superior to mere Christians. Disciples are said to be Christians who have received special training.
This training includes much more than mere teaching. There is an intense one-on-one relationship between the discipler and the Christian being discipled. The discipler gives detailed personal guidance to the Christian being discipled. This guidance may include instructions concerning many personal matters of a totally secular nature.
The person being discipled is taught to submit to the discipler. Furthermore, the person being discipled is taught to imitate the discipler.
Christians being discipled are required to confess their sins to their discipler. Such confession is followed by rebuke, correction, admonition, and prayer.
If the person being discipled seems reluctant to confess sins, the discipler asks probing personal questions to elicit the confession.
Discipling is hierarchical.
There is a clear distinction between the discipler and the person being discipled. A Christian might have many peer relationships, but only one person is that Christians discipler.
That discipler is the person who must be imitated and obeyed. After a Christian has been discipled for a while, that Christian is expected to start discipling others.
The result is a pyramid of relationships that resembles a multi-level marketing system.
In various denominations where the discipling movement has appeared, the typical pattern has been for the founding pastor of a church to be at the top of the pyramid.
That founding pastor disciples a small group of other pastors. Each of them, in turn, disciples a small group of lay leaders.
The lay leaders then disciple members one step lower in the pyramid.
That hierarchical system continues through as many steps as may be needed as the discipling movement spreads.
The growth of the discipling network typically goes beyond one local congregation to include many other congregations established by the parent group.
This description of discipling, of course, does not perfectly fit every group that has ever been a part of the discipling movement. This composite description, however, is very close to each of the groups that has been a part of this movement.
http://www.somis.org/TDD-01.html
Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism - Cult of Confession:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brain … ing19.html
This is all off-topic and I wont say any more on this thread about chain of command but Cadge, you can't bring a phrase like that up without making me snort coffee through my nose!!!
Message edited by maggie on February 03, 2009
Offline
I have observed that the SDA denomination, until recent years, needed no disciple tactics to hold members to the grindstone. Since the advent of internet and the wealth of information, maybe they will move toward the cell method to keep members under the thumb of the church.
Thanks for the information Maggie. It sure is interesting watching how satan uses the very thing, the church, set up by Jesus to keep people from having a personal relationship with Him.
Mind control BAH HUMBUG! Bob
Offline
With the arrival of the internet and instant, world-wide communiciation, it is increasingly difficult to control any group unless they are willing to sever all outside communication and only read, listen to, and watch specified approved lists.
This does not, and will not induce people to obey authority, especially those who value independence.
Offline
Hey, John, did you miss Cadges endorsement for you? or backhanded compliment?
Or can we just change scripture around anywhere to suit our fancy? If so, then we need to pay a lot more attention to John Alfke.
Offline
I want to make this perfectly clear. I have in no way ever held any negative or unkind feelings towards John Alfke, or Neil Walls even, for any opinions or beliefs that they may hold contrary to mine. I believe that they have a right to view lifes circumstances and teachings and assimilate their own beliefs based on their own experiences on this orb which is filled with many myths, mysteries and nonending questions and complexities. They don't have to kowtow to anyone elses beliefs that don't makes sense to them. They have a right to explore and question each and every thing that has been rammed into their cranial lobes from the rest of us imperfect people here on earth from the get go, as do we all.
I believe what I do from my experiences and try to share them and I'm always willing to hear from those with different or even opposing views. I don't always see things correctly, and have had to make many changes in my time. I expect I'll have to make many more too. Anyhow, I don't have to accept their beliefs, nor do they have to accept mine. I do believe that we can learn a lot from each other if we are willing to listen and keep an open mind. I can't see where a spirit of sarcasm and accusation attended by intermittent spasms of vitriole will bring about any peace and respect.
Cadge
Has ayone put out an Amber alert for Sorensen?
Offline
