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Was Cain given the Ten Commandments? No record.
However, it is a natural law that all cultures have known since before Hammurabi incorporated into law a thousand years before the Ten. Stealing, lying, were also known as being wrong.
There is no natural way of discerning any day is different from another; or that one day of a week, month, or year should stand apart as a day of rest. So, the Sabbath command is UNNATURAL; that is, there is no way that most people of the world could possibly have known of it but the Jews who were given it for them, also alone, and no one else. Where in the Bible can anyone show that the Sabbath was ever given to any people except the Jews? Just as circumcision and the Holiness Code were never applied to other people, but they were to set apart the Jews from all the surrounding nations.
By all the other nations adopting Jewish laws and customs, it denigrates God's special relationship with the Jews as his chosen people.
Christ's coming changed everything: there is now no Greek or Jew, male or female, free or slave. How do you interpret that command of Paul while still saying that the Sabbath is meant for everyone today?
The Bible account says that it was created by God Christ on the seventh-day of Creation Week before there was any need for a shadow.
This was certainly not the unnderstanding of the Jews, who wrote and preserved the Creation Week account. They knew nothing of Jesus or Christ, and even the account says In the beginning God...& and never a mention of Jesus until John's Gospel, the latest written, at the turn of the first century A.D. It is eisegesis to say that Christ had anything to do with Creation.
This would be blasphemy to the Jews. Christians have been arrogant in both rewriting and reinterpreting the Jewish Scriptures. Hands off!
It's like trying to rewrite Shakespeare--fools rush in.... Why do Johnny-come lately Christians want to rewrite the Hebrew Scripture?
Do they know better what the initial writers mean to say?
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There is no natural way of discerning any day is different from another; or that one day of a week, month, or year should stand apart as a day of rest. So, the Sabbath command is UNNATURAL; that is, there is no way that most people of the world could possibly have known of it but the Jews who were given it for them, also alone, and no one else.
And that is where a universal Sabbath runs into difficulty. Paul, in Rom.2:14 states that Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these not having the Law are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them...
The LAW spoken of here can not possibly include the 4th, since the keeping of any day would not be something done instinctively. It's pretty clear to me that the NT, when it speaks of the LAW that is to be kept is talking about the LAW as given by Christ, as He answered the question as to which of the laws was the most important - LOVE, FOR GOD AND LOVE TOWARD OUR FELLOW MAN. Love is carried out in many more ways than what is listed in the Ten Commandments and in various situations.
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Thanks, Maggie - here we go again. I totally agree that, that is where the weekly Sabbath originally began. But still, even that is not something anybody any where would INSTINCTLIVELY begin to celebrate. The laws Paul is talking about are matters of the heart that prompt us to treat others with love and respect no matter what cultural background we have.
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including strangers non Israelites who are within their gates as those required to rest shows that those who were not within their gates were exempt.
I agree that there exists no record of a command, or experience, re: the Sabbath before the exodus. Genesis says that God kept the Sabbath at Creation. But, the argument for proving that strangers outside one's gates are exempt doesn't impress me. The focus is on the homeowner, not others in other places. The homeowner was responsible for those under his care. He was to provide Sabbath rest for them as well. We can say that the fourth commandment does not address the stranger in Israel who is without the gate. We do have the story of Nehemiah where he sought to control the stranger outside the gates of Jerusalem.
I need to study this further, but I believe that the later Hebrew prophets predicted that Israel would be the gathering place for all the world to come and worship God and learn of Him. This would include learning of universal principles called the Law of God. Christianity has fulfilled this prophecy. Through Christ, the nations have come to God and learned of His Law. God's Law and the Torah are not the same. For Israel, they were essentially the same, but God's Law covers all of humanity.
It was predicted that all flesh would come and worship on the Sabbath and the New Moon. See
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?
It is true that this prophecy exalts the New Moon along with the Sabbath, but, it prophesies that the Gentiles all flesh will observe the Sabbath. Here we have a view that takes the Sabbath beyond the Jew. When Paul preached the Gospel. It was rejected by the Jews and the Gentiles would assemble on the Sabbath to hear him preach. Isaiah envisioned a Sabbath for all flesh, not just the Jew.
I believe that Christians, as the spiritual offspring of Abraham, receive the promise of the covenant. I also believe that the Sinai covenant served as a school master, a disciplinarian, until Christ. It also taught by shadow the Gospel truths. Both the covenants envisioned the Law of God; the universal principles of morality and social well-being.
Is the Sabbath written on the hearts of unbelievers? A weekly pause day makes intuitive sense. I suggest that God writes on our hearts what He teaches us. The example of love your enemies illustrates that not all of God's wishes are natural. Revenge and justice come naturally. Loving the devil, child molesters, oppressive churchmen, and mean-spirited posters does not.
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IMHO the Jews then and now are agreed upon the fact that Sabbath was given only to them.
My good friend Baruch Dryzun, whom you see in the picture below, is a physician, lives now in Israel and while he was working here in Pori, introduced me on judaism.
He once stated that he as Jew is supposed to keep the Sabbath, but - although he was son to a rabbi - he did not understand, why on Earth I believed that it were my duty, too, to keep Sabbath.
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he did not understand, why on Earth I believed that it were my duty, too, to keep Sabbath.
I wonder what he would say about the all flesh coming together to worship G_d on the Sabbath and New Moon?
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So Don, what happens to the New Moon Festival in the meantime? <BR> <BR>
Isaiah sees a day when God will govern the world, and the entire world would be living under the Jewish perspective of God's laws. What other laws would you expect Isaiah to have? To lift this verse out of the OT and applying it to the NT hope for a post-advent world is using the text out of context.
Do you think that when the NT talks about God's laws being written on the heart instead of tables of stone it means that the Ten Commandments are inscribed there just as they were on the stone and we check them off in sequence?
The rest of the TEN are, yet again, being ignored. How is that young girl in Missouri, who was raped continuously by her father and had four children by him supposed to honor this guy; or, her mother who knew about all this and even assisted in the delivery of her babies?
Those Ten Commandments had a specific function for the Israelites at that junxure and describe God's will for that specific people. God might have totally other laws for other peoples, depending on their experiences and circumstances.
In no way do those Ten Commandments cover all human experiences. I guess that's how a commandment keeping man can then go ahead an abuse his household with impunity BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT COVERED BY THE TEN.
Message edited by sirje on January 30, 2009
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Do you think that when the NT talks about God's laws being written on the heart instead of tables of stone; it means that the Ten Commandments are inscribed there just as they were on the stone and we check them off in sequence?
I believe that the Ten Commandments in stone describe ten great principles of God's will. Just as the two take in the ten so the ten take in many more.
Your example: How is that young girl in Missouri, who was raped continuously by her father and had four children by him supposed to honor this guy; or, her mother who knew about all this and even assisted in the delivery of her babies? does not negate the principle of honoring one's parents. It would be just as difficult in Old Testament times to cope with such injustice. The Christian daughter is told to be forgiving toward him. That is just as hard as honoring.
Honoring does not mean condoning. This terrible act you speak of does not take away the principle of honoring, or of forgiving.
I believe that the Ten Precepts represent universal principles which all peoples everywhere naturally regard.
I don't believe that the OT prophecies are null and void. I believe they have application to the people of God in all generations. Jesus fulfilled and will fulfill these prophecies.
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By Sirje, Posted on Friday, January 30, 2009 - 4:46 am:
Thanks, Maggie - here we go again. I totally agree that, that is where the weekly Sabbath originally began.
But still, even that is not something anybody any where would INSTINCTLIVELY begin to celebrate.
The laws Paul is talking about are matters of the heart that prompt us to treat others with love and respect no matter what cultural background we have.
The table above includes some of the oldest languages known to man. One of these, the Babylonian language, was in use hundreds of years before the Hebrew race was founded by Abraham. That language designated the seventh day of the week as sa-ba-tu, meaning rest day -- another indisputable proof that the Bible Sabbath was not, and is not, exclusively Jewish.
Very few realize that the word Sabbath and the concept of resting from work on the seventh day of the week Saturday is common to most of the ancient and modern languages of the world. This is evidence totally independent of the Scriptures that confirms the Biblical teaching that God's seventh day Sabbath predates Judaism. The concept of a Saturday holy day of rest was understood, accepted, and practiced by virtually every culture from Babylon through modern times.
In the study of the many languages of mankind you will find two important facts:
1. In the majority of the principal languages the last, or seventh, day of the week is designated as Sabbath.
2. There is not even one language which designates another day as the day of rest.
From these facts we may conclude that not only those people who called the last day of the week Sabbath, but all other peoples and races, as far as they recognized any day of the week as Sabbath, rested on the seventh day. In fact, it was recorded by the great historian, Socrates, that in his time the whole known world, with the exception of Rome and Alexandria, observed the seventh day of the week.
The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.
--Socrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 7, chap.19.
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/documentation/languages.asp
I'm no expert on any of this - feel free to dispute my facts - but it seems that people might have been responding to something besides the Ten Commandments here, since they, um, didn't exist.
Either people remembered God telling about the Sabbath at creation, or they were instinctively responding to the natural rhythms of the creation in the moon.
I think they were instinctively responding to the moon.
Do I annoy you, Sirje?
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By Tom, Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 10:20 am:
These are all the Sabbath options that exist.
Hey, Tom - you left one out.
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/11/318.jpg
"Moon Phases"
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Maggie,
You're beginning to...
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/angry.gif
The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.
That's actually interesting. I had discussions with a MD from Cyprus. He worked in a clinic constructed and run by an SDA conference. My husband and he shared a waiting room. Because it was an SDA building he felt obligated to attend SS and church on the Sabbath. He said that, as a boy growing up in Cyprus, his family would not work on the seventh-day but attended church on Sunday, so that the seventh-day Sabbath wasn't anything strange to him.
What you wrote, however, still has cultural and ceremonial aspects. I see Paul referring to people without any history of knowing the laws God gave in the OT, instinctively keeping them - not culturally. It would be surprising to find some tribe in the Congo or somewhere, keeping the seventh-day holy just because... .
If, what you say is true, then there IS proof that the Sabbath was kept before Sinai; and the Hebrews coming out of Egypt had to be reminded of it.
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In fact, it was recorded by the great historian, Socrates, that in his time the whole known world, with the exception of Rome and Alexandria, observed the seventh day of the week.
The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.
--Socrates, Ecclesiastical History, Book 7, chap.19.
This is not the famous Greek philosopher Socrates. In the third century in the present era a Christian by the name of Socrates did some history; a rather important historian but not the Greek Philosopher.
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The story of creation, that finally was recorded and became our source, was passed down from generation to generation.
The seven day creation cycle was maintained throughout the ages. Six creation days and one rest day that God took one time. Just because they referred to the last day of the week as rest doesn't in any way mean that they revered the day. To assume that they had the 4th commandment is just that, an assumption.
The stranger only kept Sabbath if he was inside the gates. Outside God didn't require the Gentile to observe the Israelite command.
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Don, in Isa. 66 where it speaks of all flesh coming together on New Moon and Sabbath AND THE NEW EARTH what about the corpses of the men who have transgressed and their fire shallo not die, and their fire shall not be quenched?
Where in all of the OT do you find that the Jews believed and taught of an afterlife? Was the new heaven mentioned there, only a hope of earthly restoration?
Must have been, because they were to be returning to the holy mountain Jerusalem and bring their offerings to the house of the Lord and the priests and Levites.
Doesn't sound like the new earth which Christians speak of. two take in the ten so the ten take in many more
There is absolutely no mention whatsoever of LOVE in the Ten. Yet, the command Jesus gives is to Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. One can strictly obey all the Ten, and not show love, but simply obedience.
That is why they are not the Last Word.
Don, I was going to mention, also, that this was NOT the great philosopher, Socrates, but a later man with the same name--as the article mentions Ecclestiastical History which indicated it was several centuries into A.D.
Also, the quotation by a 19th century man claiming that Adam and Noah kept the Sabbath is completely erroneous. There was never a Sabbath command given until Sinai, so they could not have obeyed a non-existent command. To claim the Sabbath was observed by anyone before the Israelites left Egypt has absolutely no biblical validity.
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Socrates Scholasticus lived in the latter part of the third and fourth century A.D.
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To claim the Sabbath was observed by anyone before the Israelites left Egypt has absolutely no biblical validity.
Elaine, people could have observed moon sabbaths without being commanded to do so.
The Bible's silence doesn't prove they didn't. If my source has any validity, Sabbath was a widespread practice.
It seems like a rather natural thing to do to me, actually, given people's natural bent toward religion and watching the heavens.
BTW, I assumed that people would know that a Socrates who wrote an <i>Ecclesiastical History</i> would not be the before-common-era philosopher.
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Don said:
But it doesn't include the other nine of the Ten Commandments? This is strange. The seventh-day was made holy at Creation. The usage of the Law as a relationship document with Israel came to an end. But the principles of the will of God did not come to an end.
Why is this strange. You have 10 kids that are thinking about leaving home. 9 choose to move on, one clings to mom and dad. Strange??? Not necessarily, it is conincidentl maybe that 9 out of 10 wanted to move on, and one wanted to stay. Should you compare all to the one??? They are all unique. The new arrangement with only one in the house has to have a new arrangement, new rules, right. That is the point. New Covenant new tenets.
The Seventh day was sanctified at Creation, or set aside. There is no proof of a command to keep it holy, God had plans for it as analogy and plans for it as an example later on.
As far as principles, what is the principle. Can I not worship God on Monday? Isn't the principle that the ultimate purpose of his reconciliation or Gospel, True Rest in Jesus Christ?
If my wife gives me a gift and I shift my love to that gift from my wife, is that not a form of idolatry, or in this case, totally misplaced love, from wife to gift. God doesn't want us fixated on a day, but on His son and Him, right??
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OK, lets say I am re convinced that Sabbath is a requirement for the Christian Church, or better yet, I have my life to live over as a Sabbath keeper.
I remember all the heartache I went through the first time I accepted the day. My cue was turning my foot from doing my own pleasure on that day. Every Sabbath was the same, I could never get it correct. I always messed it up. This always left me with feelings of unworthiness. Finally,I gave up and accepted the fact that I could not meet the standards Mrs. White laid out and I was among the 19 out of 20 who were not ready for the Kingdom. After facing that reality I became numb to many other things the prophet said I should not do/do.
This time I need positive instruction as how to observe the day. Jesus served others on the day by healing. He rattled the Pharisees by arguing with them on Sabbath and did some teaching. That is about all we know He did. Would He have worked with Habitat or in a soup kitchen? We have no idea and I sure don't want to get those old feelings that I had the first time. Help me, show me, lead me to scripture that will explain how to observe the day. Please do not lead me to Mrs. White, she was a big problem the first time.
The first time I observed the day I did work 6 days and that left me with no time to throw the baseball with the kids. No time to take the boat out and do a little skiing. This time I need to have things different so that my needs are taken care of. Is that selfish? I wonder how the Israelites did it. I seems like they didn't have any time to play. In fact, I wonder about all active SDAs who follow the prophets instruction. Is life satisfying to them. Are they just going through the motions when they say happy Sabbath?
In His service, Bob
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Help me, show me, lead me to scripture that will explain how to observe the day.
Christianity teaches that love is the fulfilling of the Law. This includes the Sabbath. Many of the stories in the Gospels are stories of how Jesus interacted with the people on the Sabbath. Why do I say this? Because, most of the people were working the other days. So, almost everything Jesus does is Sabbath activity.
He promoted certain Sabbath principles:
It is a gift to humanity. It was made for us. Our heart goes out in love for God for such a wonderful gift. If I am given a gift, I may read the instruction manual, but I do not fret over whether I am using the gift right. Obsessive-compulsive-perfectionistic types may do so, but it is no way to deal with this wonderful gift.
Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Our Victorian character, as a church, has made rules about many things re: the Sabbath. I think we need to get our Christian thinking straight first, then the Sabbath will be understandable.
Christianity presents God's love in the gift of His Son. It informs me of my need of Christ because I am a sinner. Sin is the transgression of the Law. My only recourse is to accept Jesus and His provisions for my getting back to God. So, I become a disciple of Jesus. He is my Master, my Guru, my teacher even regarding the Sabbath. He instructs me. As I look back to the Scriptures, I do so through Jesus eyes.
I note John 8 and how Jesus dealt with the severity of the law. My feelings of inadequacy in my own law abiding find resolution in Christ. His attitude toward me is like His attitude toward the woman caught in adultery.
Christianity moves forward on grand principles and the freedom in Christ to implement those principles as one sees fit.
The Christian does not approach God's will by attempting to regulate all of it. No. God's will is to love. Love gives me freedom. When Love and the Sabbath meet, the day is wonderful. Perfect love casts out all fear. I am accepted in Christ. Therefore I can love.
The Sabbath is full of opportunity to love both God and our fellow man. A Sabbath regulated from without the soul is part of the tables of stone. The Sabbath, taught to me by Christ, resides on my heart and I implement it by means of love. This is the spirit of the law.
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It's actually pretty simple. Jesus did two things regarding the Sabbath.
He helped people
he spent a considerable amount of time debunking a host of sabbath rules.
renie
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It's actually pretty simple. Jesus did two things regarding the Sabbath.
He helped people and
he spent a considerable amount of time debunking a host of sabbath rules.
renie
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Beautiful post Don. We should live every day with attitudes that reflect Jesus.
Jesus will forgive most any sin, but that does not give us freedom to commit adultery at will. He still tells us to go and sin no more. Well, the 9 commandments are mostly cut and dried Thou shalt not. The Sabbath command was not so cut and dried. The Old Covenant was clear on not cooking peas on the Sabbath. Jesus didn't give New Covenant Christians any cut and dried instructions, so I am still uncertain on whether one may or may not cook the peas.
Maybe I didn't understand your last post Don, is there new freedom for Sabbath keepers? Mrs. White sure didn't think so. Get out the Ellen White indexes, turn to Sabbath, and you will get my drift. I suppose I could eat them raw or cold and avoid the problem, but that is only one of the many problems facing me each Sabbath. I do not believe Jesus gave us a hint about being Holy on the day regardless of what you have written.
Bob
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Well, since the fourth commandment doesn't include wives, we are left to cook the peas on the Sabbath.
we wives have to do the potluck on Sabbath, do the dishes, clean up after and empty the trash.
I guess that's why we weren't included in the 4th commandment.
renie
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Maybe I didn't understand your last post Don, is there new freedom for Sabbath keepers?
Don said; Yes. It is really not new freedom, but a return to freedom. I believe that Adam and Eve were free to enjoy the Sabbath. That of course is not mentioned in the Scriptures. When Jesus instructed His followers, He told them that the Mosaic Law was provisional. The ideal goes back to the beginning. Recall how He discussed divorce with the leaders. The Gospel intends to restore humanity to its original condition of a faith-filled relationship with our Creator.
Jesus brought a wonderful sense of freedom to His Sabbath observance. He lived by principles not by regulations. The Mosaic Sabbath regulations were given, it seems, to help an unruly mass of people find order in their lives. Perhaps Ellen White's role was similar in the formative years of Adventism.
I believe that once Jesus has instructed me on the principles, that I am free to implement them based on love. I believe that Romans 14 addresses problems faced in the early church over the ceremonial sabbaths and feast days. But, the concept of not judging a person regarding how they keep the Sabbath is a good one. I don't believe that people should be disfellowshipped by the church for difficulties they face with Sabbath observance. The Seventh-day Adventist Church is a Sabbatarian organization. So, a person who denounces the Sabbath should not be a member. But, we need to provide encouragement, not censure, regarding Sabbath guidelines. This was Jesus way.
My mother would not microwave a potato, yet she would spend more time warming up the food than it would take to do the potato. The cooking rules seems to be based on the principle that you don't take up your Sabbath with cooking. Recall that the Sabbath cooking regulations were given for those camping. I have tried cooking while camping, it was a major task which took up most of the morning to prepare the lunch.
2. One of the principles of the Sabbath is that it provides extended time for study and worship. I teach Religion. At times, I have felt inclined to grade papers and prepare for classes. I have even begun such tasks. Not for long though. It only took a few moments for me to realize that such activities felt more like work than worship.
3. Once as a young adult, I dated a Catholic girl. She invited me to a wedding Friday evening. Weddings often are very spiritual events. I decided to go. I told myself that I would know if the event was suitable for my Sabbath observance. The wedding was wonderful. I felt no conflict with my Sabbath principles at all. But, the reception was something else. It revolved around an Elvis impersonator, his songs and of course, a beer garden. Immediately, I felt conflict with my Sabbath principles. Also, because of my internal conflict, I wasn't very good company for her.
4. In one of the churches where I served as pastor there was a member who was a captain in the military; the navigator of an Aurora aircraft. He told me that he had no problem defending his country on the Sabbath, but it bothered him to do training exercises on the Sabbath. He became an Adventist while in the armed services.
It bothered him so much to train on the Sabbath, he found he couldn't concentrate on his tasks. He alerted his bosses that he could no longer do training on the Sabbath. They told him they would do nothing until he disobeyed an order. Once that happened he was grounded. A board of inquiry was formed. I was called in to explain the Church's view of the Sabbath and the military. The board's report climbed the ladder of the military and ended up at the national headquarters. The captain was grounded for a full year, assigned to desk work. At the end of the year they accommodated him but told him they would not tolerated him disobeying any more orders. I did not agree with the captain's view of warfare or of Sabbath-keeping, but as his pastor, my task was to support him not conform him after my image.
In one of my churches, one of the members worked as a grocery store cashier on the Sabbath. She had three children and her husband was unemployed. This was the first dilemma of this sort that I had to face. Out of this experience, I have concluded that a church should not stand in judgment of people facing issues of survival. I believe that dying for my faith is honorable but I will not expect that of another person.
I spent my formative years as a youth bird-watching. My friends and I kept day lists, life lists, went on Christmas counts, kept scientific records, and went for long, long walks on the Sabbath. I found that after four hours in the wilds of nature, all my senses seemed to conform to its world and the experiences of sights, sounds, feelings, etc. amazed us. When I would return from a Sabbath day's excursion my mother would ask me, Did you talk about the Lord out there. I couldn't remember and felt kind of guilty. Now, if she could ask me such a question, my answer would be, No, the Lord talked to me.
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