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We have examined the Bible statements over and over, it seems. Hebrews 4, Hebrews 8, Genesis 1, Matthew 12, Mark 2, Romans 14, Col. 2:16-17, etc.
We have a record of regard for the Sabbath and for Sunday in the post-apostolic fathers. Do any of the post-apostolic writers promote the no-day idea? I think it would be easy to find a type of New Covenant Theology, but I wonder if the anti-weekly day of worship idea can be found? How much textual evidence is there that the early church considered a weekly day of rest optional?
I don't consider any of the verses discussed to be the final definitive say. New Covenant Theology interprets things their way. Adventists see it a certain way. How did the Christians of the second and third centuries see it? I don't recall reading anyone considering a weekly day of worship optional.
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How did the Christians of the second and third centuries see it? I don't recall reading anyone considering a weekly day of worship optional.
Whether optional or not, in the NT Paul said let everyone be convinced in his own mind.
The post-apostolic fathers have written much on their observing the first day of the week in honor of Christ's resurrection: Justin Martyr, and others. They do not mention observing the 7th day as the Sabbath.
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We certainly know that the Christians feared appearing as Judiazers. Paul would seek people out on the Sabbath/Saturday to reason with them and preach the gospel, until they were abusive to him, then he shook the dust from his shoes and robe and said, Your blood be upon you and went next door to the synagogue. What day do you figure they worshipped on after that incident. It appears to be daily worship or study, does it not?
Acts 18:5When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.[a] 6But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.
and Don, do you think Apollos would be allowed to say what he had learned from Priscilla and Aquilla in the synagogue, it says he debated in public, and proved from scripture that Jesus was the Christ. What day do you think that was done on?? And where?? Acts 18:24-28.
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They do not mention observing the 7th day as the Sabbath.
This is incorrect. It depends which writer you refer to. Perhaps, when I get more time, I will document some of what I assert.
There are two problems:
The Torah recognizes two kinds of sabbaths: The ceremonial sabbaths and the Sabbath of the Lord. Leviticus 23 makes the distinction. Romans 14 does not clarify what is meant, or if all are meant.
The modern mind is used to statements of faith which have been hammered out and clarified, much like a creed was in the ancient church. The canonical writings do not contain any statements of faith clarifying the Christian church's view of a weekly day of rest and worship. All we have are letters written addressing real situations and practical solutions.
Christians of various stripe take their doctrinal stand using their best logic and formulation. The fact that inconclusive debate occurs illustrates the problem. I do not suggest that the various advocates cease their assertions. I do believe that the ambiguity calls on all to be empathetic to the other person's views. Empathy between advocates on this issue has not been very noticeable.
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There can be no doubt that the 10 were part of the law Jesus fulfilled. The proof is found in 2Cor 3:6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
How could anyone deny the plain words written by Paul. The law is now the schoolmaster. We live by the Spirit. Our law is the law of love.
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How could anyone deny the plain words written by Paul. The law is now the schoolmaster. We live by the Spirit. Our law is the law of love.
I agree that the Spirit of the Law is the focus for the Christian. This does not mean that any identification of God's will beyond love is inappropriate.
For example, Jesus identifies Himself as the Lord of the Sabbath. Paul and John identify Jesus as the creator. Genesis says that the creator made the seventh-day holy. Thus, if I love Jesus, I will honor what He, Himself, has declared holy. He is my Lord. The Sabbath He made was made for me. I praise Him for it.
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I will honor what He, Himself, has declared holy. He is my Lord. The Sabbath He made was made for me. I praise Him for it.
Jesus also honored the Jewish rite of circumcision, the offerings his parents gave on th 8th day, as he was, and lived among Jews his entire life.
Did Paul have authority to make the changes from Judaism for the new Gentile Christians? Who gave him that authority?
Col. 2:16 acknowledges the annual feasts, of which the Sabbath was also one, but clearly says that no one should be judged regarding the observance of annual festivals wouldn't that be the ceremonial Sabbaths, among others? New Moons or a Sabbath day, there is no ambiguity there.
In Romans, he says that one man regards one day above another...let every man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord...
Can we pick and choose which texts we prefer while, at the same time, ignoring others which are contradictory?
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Bob Shields, we are still under Christ's Law as Paul was. What is Christ's Law? All commands made by Jesus of a New Covenant nature plus all God given commands through the Apostles and Paul. Calling himself Lord of the Sabbath does not entrench it in the New Covenant when He Himself is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, our True Rest. He is the Sabbath. Come onto me and I will give you rest.
Your argument that the Sabbath is needed for rest, is not valid, because you could get that physical rest by taking Wednesday off. Could you not?? The world goes round 24/7/365 and there are needs that we even as SDAs depend on on Saturday, that the function of, we have condemned in the past and kept people from membership because they perform these necessary functions.
What if our SDA church were burning down, and the recording at the other end on Saturday was, we take Saturday off because it is one of the ten commandment, please call back during normal business hours.
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The Sabbath He made was made for me. I praise Him for it.
The Bible tells us the Sabbath part of Torah law was made for the Israelites Deut 5. Jesus is the Rest for all the inhabitants of Earth.
Bob Sands, love covers all morality whether Jesus, Paul, Peter or any other Apostle.
John 15:12
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
John 15:17
This is my command: Love each other.
John 21:17
The third time he said to him, Simon son of John, do you love me? Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, Do you love me? He said, Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you. Jesus said;Feed my sheep.
Luke 10:25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher, he asked, what must I do to inherit eternal life?
26 What is written in the Law?he replied.How do you read it?
27He answered: ;Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind and,Love your neighbor as yourself.
You have answered correctly, Jesus replied. Do this and you will live.
Question: are the rules that Paul spoke of in 1Tim 1 moral and do they apply to all Christians?
I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
I would also add that the Sabbath was ritual in nature. It was Holy like the Arc of the Covenant and all the law was holy. Morality never will change. As I stated before it is the law of love which we as Christians must live by.
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Jesus is the Rest for all the inhabitants of Earth.
I agree that their is wonderful spiritual rest in Christ's good news. I don't see how this negates the wisdom of a weekly rest day. The seventh-day was made holy at Creation. There were no Israelites then. Yes, the Sabbath was incorporated into the Torah; into the very heart of the Jewish way of life. This does not take away the universal wisdom of a weekly rest day.
I submit that the sabbaths of Romans 14 and Colossians 2 are to be understood in the context of annual feast days and holding to the ways of observance condemned by Jesus.
I refuse to consider the words of Jesus re: the Sabbath and His Lordship of none-effect in the Gospel kingdom. It does not make sense to me for these wonderful concepts to be so eloquently spoken and then to be done away decades before the very words were written into the canon.
I repeat. Show me from any early Christian writings where a weekly rest and worship day was considered unimportant. The practice neglecting of a weekly rest day finds no support in the early writings.
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Don, why the need for this reminder from Paul:
Hebrews 10:23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
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25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing,
I can think of other situations which would call for such advice. Note he said as some are doing. Most were meeting.
I contend that the historical evidence supports the idea that the early Christians continued the practice of meeting on a weekly basis. I have read no evidence to lead me to think otherwise.
Also, the Sabbath was a deeply entrenched in Jewish society as was circumcision, yet there is no record of a show down like that over circumcision. I suggest that it was not even on the minds of the early Christians. There is no record of Christ changing the validity of the Sabbath.
In the Sermon on the Mount He announced adjustments to the Law. These adjustments certainly weren't made just to have the whole business done away in a few years. Jesus referred to the Ten Commandments as the Commandments of God. See Matthew 15. Jesus adjusted the understanding of the Sabbath, yes.
But He did not announce the doing away of the weekly rest day. Jesus came to make adjustments to the Kingdom concepts. Paul furthered this work of Christ. He did not oppose Jesus. Both Jesus and Paul addressed concerns over the Law as it had become in Judaism, the traditions of men, the full expression of law the oral law. Jesus and Paul never opposed the 10 Commandments. It is true that the 10 Commandments resided at the very heart of Judaism. This does not take away their validity.
All the ten find positive support in the New Testament, including the Sabbath of the Lord. The other sabbaths, see Leviticus 23, did not enjoy the verbal support of Jesus Christ. This is an important distinction for me. I choose to follow Jesus, as do many of you. Sabbath observance, as He taught it, is an important part of the lifestyle he advocated.
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I agree that their is wonderful spiritual rest in Christ's good news. I don't see how this negates the wisdom of a weekly rest day.
You are right Don, because our rest is in Jesus doesn't negate the need of time for worship and recreation. That is why God gave us brains. Now we are led in all things by the Holy Spirit not by tablets of stone. Scripture goes further in Hebrews by telling us that we should not forget to come together as Christians. We are given the responsibility to set the times.
The seventh-day was made holy at Creation. Have you read Deut 5?
There were no Israelites then. And there was no instruction for Adam and Eve to keep a weekly rest.
Yes, the Sabbath was incorporated into the Torah; into the very heart of the Jewish way of life. This does not take away the universal wisdom of a weekly rest day. Scripture please.
I would not be writing here trying to help SDAs see that the Sabbath is not a Christian doctrine if they wouldn't use it as a club to try to take advantage of unsuspecting people. What they do with their time is not my concern. What is my concern is that SDAs teach that only if we believe that the Sabbath is a Christian command are we are loyal to Jesus. If not we will receive the mark at the end of probation. Also we are of the devil if we have heard the truth and turn away. The crazy belief that the Sabbath is the test of loyalty is a figment of Ellen White. Those who believe it have drunk the koolade
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Don, alot or most of what the Jews did in the Old Covenant was fulfilled by Christ. Did they continue the slaughter of animals or as Christ did bring animal sacrifices to the temple. NO, that was discontinued. You are arguing for the shadow to be mandated. Nowhere is that espoused.
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Don, you are correct: there is no record of Christ changing the validity of the Sabbath. There is also no record of his changing the earliest command of circumcision; the festivals, or the sacrifices.
When asked as to what were the greatest commandments, he answered, Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself.
Adventists have proclaimed that the Sabbath commandmentis the one that is not only the most important, but that has not been obeyed--by any church except the SDA.
Were the annual and monthly New Moon festivals to be worshiped by the Gentiles who became Christians? When and where were the Gentiles ever given the Sabbath or told they must worship on that day?
The Jerusalem controversy was over the requirements that the Jews wanted to impose, even demand on the Gentiles. They were rebuked for this, and the only requirement was to accept Christ. You will never find that the Gentile Christians were ever given Jewish practices to observe.
The Jews were scattered throughout the Roman Empire, the far larger number were NOT in Judea. That is why the Septuagint was written in Greek, because the greatest number of Jews spoke Greek and it is the Bible used by the writers of the NT and they quote it in their gospels.
If you follow the practice of Jesus, do you believe that circumcision, as a religious requirement should apply to Christians? Did Jesus ever change that very Jewish practice? Did Jesus ever abrogate the many feast and festivals that were given by God for the Jews? Did Jesus ever say the dietary laws were no longer required? Is that why Adventists still live by them?
Is there ever a record in the Bible that the Ten Commandments were given to anyone other than the Jews?
Before the first century A.D. ended, there is no record whatsoever of a Jewish Christian church, that is why the early church records many instances where they began meeting on the first day of the week to celebrate and honor Christ's Resurrection.
The Jews, most likely, continued worshiping on the Sabbath, as they were never told otherwise. But, neither were the Gentiles ever told that they had to adopt Jewish practices to become Christians. The Gentile Christians created the church, not the Jews.
Where is your historical evidence that the early Christians, especially the Gentiles, practiced meeting on the 7th day to worship?
The Creation record of the Sabbath was written long after, most likely around the Babylonian Exile. There was never a command or even suggestion that man was to keep it holy until Exodus. It simply states that GOD rested nothing at all about directing man to do so, and there is no record of mankind through all those long centuries ever worshiped on the Sabbath: not Adam, not Noah, not Abraham, Jacob, Joseph and more.
According to the Bible record, it was NEVER given to anyone but the Israelites--the people who were brought out of the house of Egypt Ex. 20:3--which is limited to them only. In another account of giving the Ten, the Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb...he did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today Deut. 5:2-3.
Of all the Ten, there is only one that is limited to one day of the week for obedience to it. All the others are applicable all the week, month, and year. One must not steal EVERY day of the week, one must not kill on every day of the year, but the Fourth is a ceremonial law, marked by a specified time, and only that time when it is applicable. Ditto for the New Moon celebrations and the feasts and festivals. Had they been given for perpetuity to all mankind, there is no record stating that, in fact they were no longer required of non-Jewish Christians.
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You are arguing for the shadow to be mandated. Nowhere is that espoused.
The Sabbath is more than a shadow of the rest in Christ. It is a stated memorial of Creation. The Bible account says that it was created by God Christ on the seventh-day of Creation Week before there was any need for a shadow.
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but that has not been obeyed--by any church except the SDA.
I have not heard any Adventist say this. I certainly don't and I, too, am an Adventist in good standing, so far.
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When and where were the Gentiles ever given the Sabbath or told they must worship on that day?
When the Gentiles were told that Jesus brought them into the fold of salvation, they rejoiced.
See the stories in Acts. When they learned that Jesus is the Creator and that He invented a weekly rest at the end of the creation week, I can imagine their joy in learning about this weekly appointment with God. I, too, am a Gentile. I join in the sense of wonder and appreciation. A weekly rest day is a grand invention. The book of Acts tells how the Gentiles seemed to naturally assume that meeting each Sabbath was how to hear the Gospel. The apostles never mentioned another day, nor did they discourage Sabbath meetings as the church did in later centuries.
Is there ever a record in the Bible that the Ten Commandments were given to anyone other than the Jews?
Paul says that the Jews were the keepers of the Oracles of God.
See http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 3:1-3
Romans 3:1-3
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … version=49
Acts 7:38
Who did they keep it for? For the whole of humanity, of course. The Oracles of God are the Ten Commandments. The Jews preserved them for all humanity.
The Old Testament predicted a time when the nations would learn of God and His wishes. Jesus was the fulfillment of that prediction. The Jews preserved a record of God's will. Jesus took over the management of the Law of God. He explained it, adjusted it. Jesus, the Law Giver explained His Law on the mount. Later, the Jerusalem Council, with Peter, James, Paul, Barnabas and others, helped define God's will for the Gentiles. The Oracles were not up for discussion. It was apparently understood that they were in a vastly superior position than the Book of the Law.
Christians who say that the Oracles of God were done away should be careful what they say.
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Let's apply the NT test for legitimacy being by their fruits you shall know them.
Most SDA evangelism in North America is aimed at members of other denominations. Most other Christian denominations accept Christ's function (in whatever manner as being the means of our salvation.
The SDA message comes along and says, "Yes, BUT, you must also obey the commandments" - with the emphasis on the fourth. This is saying to those of other churches, YOUR SALVATION IS NOT COMPLETE UNTIL YOU WORSHIP ON THE SEVENTH-DAY. In fact, if you continue to worship on the first day, you are from the Devil the Antichrist.
Now, how does this teaching not make the Sabbath THE means of salvation, above and beyond Christ's atonement, how ever that's understood
There is no problem about anyone worshipping on Sabbath. It's when an entire denomination zeros in on one commandment and makes it stand above everything else as the means of our salvation that it becomes a problem.
In fact, the entire book of Revelation is made to be about the Sabbath that only SDAs keep; and the interpretation of Revelation, as it says, These are they... make the Sabbath and EGW the identifying marks of Christians - not Christ.
Who are the faithful Christians in Revelation? Those who keep the commandments, the Sabbath, and believe in EGW, is the answer; and Christ is no where to be found in this interpretation. This is the fruit of SDA theology.
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Don said:
The Sabbath is more than a shadow of the rest in Christ. It is a stated memorial of Creation. The Bible account says that it was created by God Christ on the seventh-day of Creation Week before there was any need for a shadow.
However, Don, you keep overlooking Hebrews 8:13. the Old is obsolete. That includes the Sabbath. If it is not restated in the New, then it is not required when evangelizing and proslytzing. To mandate Sabbath keeping when God says it is obsolete and His Son is now the True Rest is creating a hurdle for acceptance that God would not want, IMHO.
It wasn't given to Adam, as you claim, no command and all, it wasn't given to Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Joseph. On the Seventh day of Creation week, he COMPLETED Rested and SANCTIFIED it set it aside to be used at a later date with the Jews and to fulfill it as the True Rest in the Gospel.
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Why would anyone worship the creation when we have the Creator and redeamer?
Why would anyone want to have their rest in a day when we can have our rest in the Creator of every day?
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To worship the creation is idolatry, BTW.
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However, Don, you keep overlooking Hebrews 8:13. the Old is obsolete. That includes the Sabbath.
But it doesn't include the other nine of the Ten Commandments? This is strange. The seventh-day was made holy at Creation. The usage of the Law as a relationship document with Israel came to an end. But the principles of the will of God did not come to an end.
Jesus gave clear counsel that he was in charge of the Sabbath. But, I am repeating myself. I suppose we have stated our views long enough to know where we differ. Do you think?
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As Hubb as said several times, I doubt that I can change anyone's mind on this, or you, mine. It is good practice clarifying the issues. Jesus defended the Sabbath and promoted it as a benefit to humanity. His followers, even many here on this forum don't acknowledge the wonderful gift given to us by our Lord.
It is a good thing that God is generous with us, huh.
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When I was an Adventist it went something like this, Its a good thing God is generous with them.
The other nine are moral principles which are incorporated into the law of Love. The Sabbath was ritual, similar to the Passover becoming the Last Supper, it was replaced by the Creator and Redeemer Himself.
Something very interesting is that even those who do not profess Christianity have the law of love written on their hearts. I have never heard of anyone professing the Sabbath or the Last Supper without being prompted by some Christian observer. It is not a natural phenomena. Bob}
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Some get the Sabbath blessing in Christ every day as is born witness by the presence of the holy spirit. Some wait until the end of the week to get it not realising that it is a taste of a rest in Jesus that He is inviting them to have daily, all their waking hours. It is that Sabbath/rest that one can have in Him while yoked together and going about our cares experiencing the burdens made light by His presence. It begins by a commune in prayer and letting Him speak to us His personal messages to us in particular through His word before we step out into the daily activities.
IMO, when we come together it is not to be for sermonizing, you should have been getting that from the Holy spirit each day already and form and ritual but to share experiences in Christ that we have through the week.It is to celebrate our unity, to plan public outreach and to break bread together.
Some will bring a song. Some a revelation/teaching to share that the Holy Spirit has impressed them on. I would even suggest that we dump the phoney suit and tie thing yet maintain modesty in dress while we incorporate the joyful playing of instruments and historical dance. Wouldn't it be nice to see the children filled with desire to be part of this solemn means festive, get out your Strong assembly as it once was?
Who made the assemblies a dry and formal, sit on you hands type of program, God or Satan?
When I think of the formality of my former Catholic church assembly and compare it with the SDA one, I'd say that the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
Cadge
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SDAs try to go back to creation to establish the command to observe the 7th day. They tell us it was commanded of all men to observe. How would the following be explained?
First, there is no internal evidence of anyone prior to Israel at Sinai keeping the sabbath.
Second, if all mankind had been commanded to keep the sabbath, the statement in this law including strangers;non Israelites who are within their gates as those required to rest shows that those who were not within their gates were exempt. If the sabbath command had been in force from creation, required of all mankind, that requirement would make no sense whatsoever.
Wm. Hohmann
Found in Truthorfables
Red mine. Bob
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