The Reformed Sabbath

Louie · 01-31-12 11:02 pm

Gibs wrote:

Louie,
What these mean to me may not be what they mean to you I do not know. Jesus made it clear He did not change one jot or tittle and for any to teach breaking them was a dire thing indeed. I think I placed those verses.

UNTIL, UNTIL, UNTIL Cannot you see the until? If you take the stand that the law is immutable then you should abide by the law, the same law that Jesus was referring to, the Torah, 613 laws given to the Jews by God at Sinai. You do know the Bible history about the LAWS ON STONE AND THE LAWS GOD DICTATED TO MOSES don't you. Seems to me you should be observing all the holy days, wearing the yarmulke on your head and wearing tassels on the 4 corners of your garments. Do you understand?

Gibs wrote:

The law of love, the two parts first one to God and the second part to our fellow man is spelled out in full in the 10. They are as they have always been in the heavenly Ark of the Covenant and never ever will there be a time they will not.

I can tell you either didn't comprehend what I wrote. I even pointed out where the law of love is found and you would rather believe a lie propagated by the SDAs.

Gibs wrote:

I can never agree that God ever changes, if He did how far could you trust him?

Read on a bit further in Matt 5 starting at verse 21. Jesus changed 2 of the 10 and some of the book of the law. Now tell me God never changes.

Gibs · 02-01-12 12:32 pm

Louie,

Man is the one attempting to change things not Jesus or God. Man always has, the Jews added so much that none of them knew all of it let alone abide by their additions.

Man has instituted his holidays for the feast, holidays, God instituted also. I suppose you observe passover or do you? It don't really matter. But if you observed the feast of tabernacles it would take care of our thanksgiving worldly celebration and also Christmas. Jesus was born on or about the first day of the feast.

Most know Jesus was not close to being born Dec. 25, why do men do it? Because he loves his own way and hates God's ways.

Louie, as for the SDA's they for the most part hold and advocate the "new age theology" today more liberaly than most of the sunday ones do. It has been for years now a coming together in emerging church as a one world Christian religion. Won't work. Truth must stand apart and solid and will will stand forever.

I am not or will not be a member of any so called church system in the world today. I am a member however of His invisible Church of which He is it's Invisible Head. We are the few there is no doubt. Jesus said,

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The theology of today teaches just the opposite, whose is right? No contest.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Louie · 02-01-12 2:26 pm

Hi Gibs, I too am not connected with a denomination. I fellowship with Christians knowing that we differ in our interpretations of scripture. I have observed in what you have written that you have similar beliefs as SDAs. Were you once a member of that group? I was for nearly 40 years. I first recognized that the prophet was not for real. I could no longer defend all the, for want of a better word, garbage she wrote. I have been very truthful on this and other forums about her false teachings and her meddling in others affairs and then writing those affairs in book form and selling it to the flock for all to read. This was a low down dirty scheme. Filthy lucre was the name of the game, and to think those books are still sold to the unsuspecting flock. I have a set of the Testimonies and they should be burned, but I use them from time to time for reference.

I must ask you since you don't believe God has changed His laws in any way, what is the New Covenant? Why is it that we don't have to observe days and new moons? Why is it we don't have to wear clothing made of only one material? Why is it Paul, the apostle of Jesus, stopped the act of circumcision? If God's laws don't change why is it we don't sacrifice animals as the Israelites laws instructed? Why is it that the Levitical system is not being used any more? You can't skip over these facts with just your statement that God has not changed his mind. Give us some detail. Show us how laws have changed yet God was not the one who changed them. Just because you, for some reason, say that God doesn't change doesn't make it so, so please elaborate. Thanks, Louie/bob

bob_2 · 02-01-12 7:15 pm

Gibs said:

Now the law of sacrifices is the only thing that was done away with, that did not touch in any way the Royal Law or it is also called The Law of Liberty, that is the law all will be judged by.

If so how could Isaiah refer to what he felt was going to be in heaven:

Isaiah 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD.

Isaiah with his understanding had all the festivals being kept in Heaven. Why Gibs don't we keep all New Moon festivals now as Isaiah says we will in heaven???

tom_norris · 03-07-12 1:20 pm

Bob2 said: Tom, you run as much danger of requiring more to be saved than too little.

Tom said: I did not invent the Gospel, or the NC Sabbath, nor do I have any power or authority to change any doctrine of Christ in the slightest. So you need to stop attacking the messenger.

Bob2 said: But you have chosen too much and you cannot prove what you cling to.

Tom said: I have chosen to follow the genuine Christ of the NT; while you have embraced “a different Christ.” One that failed to leave a clear explanation about the Sabbath, even as he supposedly fulfilled it, and then abolished it, changing it into an Every Day spiritual rest day. Each to their own Christ.

So we view the Gospel very differently, including the Sabbath and most everything else. However, I can establish my views, and that of Christ, from the Word, while you can do no such thing, and neither can the SDA’s, who taught you so much confusion and error.

There is only one Gospel, one Spirit, and one Christ. Only one view of the NC Sabbath is correct. When you find the true Christ, the true Sabbath will also be discovered. Only the genuine Christ has the genuine Sabbath doctrine for the church.

Bob2 said: Your inflamed and damning words will have to be accounted for in the PAJ. The Gospel is not as complicated and you and Gibs make it. Any day can be a day that you can Rest in Jesus.

Tom said: First, the Gospel is ancient and very, very, difficult to understand today. Even in the first century, when it was new, the majority could not understand it, and so it has ever been. In fact, Jesus teaches that only a few of those who hear the Gospel will embrace it and find Eternal Life.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Second, Those who teach the Gospel must deal with both inflamed and damning words. Why? Because the Gospel deals with the Judgment, Eternal Life, and Damnation. It upsets the religious status quo, causing debates and riots and all manner of persecution, even as condemnation is also part of the mix.

Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

The Gospel is not all sweetness and kittens as many think. It is a bloody paradigm, whose symbol is the red wine of tortured blood.

Matt. 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Acts 17:2 And according to Paul’s custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 17:3 explaining and giving evidence that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I am proclaiming to you is the Christ.”

Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, long with a large number of the God-fearing Greeks and a number of the leading women.

Acts 17:5 But the Jews, becoming jealous and taking along some wicked men from the market place, formed a mob and set the city in an uproar; and attacking the house of Jason, they were seeking to bring them out to the people.

Acts 17:6 When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have upset the world have come here also;

Acts 17:7 and Jason has welcomed them, and they all act contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, Jesus.”

Acts 17:8 They stirred up the crowd and the city authorities who heard these things.

The Gospel causes trouble wherever it goes. It overturns established traditions and empowers people to speak out and challenge their corrupt religious leaders. This has taken place within the SDA church for all to see, even as more reform is required in order to save the Advent Movement.

Matt. 10:16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

Matt. 10:17 “But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;

Third; As for the PAJ of the last church, it is over. It has already taken place. We all failed. Which is why all must repent.

Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Today, the Advent Movement has been judged to be doctrinally blind and spiritually naked. This is why it is self-destructing; because they have embraced a false view of the Gospel and the Judgment, as well as the doctrine of the Sabbath, and many other errors. Consequently, they must repent and reform or else...

The 2nd Coming is the only Judgment pillar in the Three Angels Messages. The Pre-Advent Judgment is not the IJ, but the Laodicean Message is the PAJ. So all SDA’s must repent for being so wrong for so long.

While Sunday is a fraud, and only the 7th day is the correct day for NC Sabbath, the SDA’s have embraced the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the Pharisees, the enemies of Christ. Such a view is incompatible with the Gospel teachings of Christ. So the SDA’s have embraced the WRONG doctrine of the Sabbath. They need to admit this great sin and REPENT, going forward to complete NC Sabbath Reform, which is their destiny.

It is time for the SDA’s to wake up from their sleep and REPENT for their false, OC view of the Sabbath, embracing the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

It is also time for the Advent Movement to correctly understand Gospel eschatology, and to develop a credible, 21st century view of how the world will really end. Sunday laws have nothing to do with the Time of Trouble, nor does the Bible teach such doctrine.

It is time for OC Adventism to become NC Adventism.

It is time for the Advent Movement to move forward and develop the 4th and final message that will prepare the church for the Great Tribulation that will end the world, as we know it. Who is prepared for the Judgments of God and the Apocalypse? No one. And the SDA’s no longer promote the 2nd Coming or even seem to care about eschatology. Sad.

2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

2Pet. 3:11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

2Pet. 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

2Pet. 3:13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bshields · 03-08-12 1:04 pm

Tom said: I did not invent the Gospel, or the NC Sabbath, nor do I have any power or authority to change any doctrine of Christ in the slightest. So you need to stop attacking the messenger.

I beg to disagree. It is either your invention or you are the spokesman for it. If Jesus started a new covenant Sabbath then He kiued in Matt 5 when He said: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Tom said: "There is only one Gospel, one Spirit, and one Christ. Only one view of the NC Sabbath is correct. When you find the true Christ, the true Sabbath will also be discovered. Only the genuine Christ has the genuine Sabbath doctrine for the church."

Funny no Christian ever saw a new covenant Sabbath from the Apostles on until you and your cohorts came upon the scene.

Tom said: "First, the Gospel is ancient and very, very, difficult to understand today. Even in the first century, when it was new, the majority could not understand it, and so it has ever been. In fact, Jesus teaches that only a few of those who hear the Gospel will embrace it and find Eternal Life."

That is nothing but a blatant lie Tom. Even a child is able to understand the plan of salvation.

Tom quoted: Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

It is not that the road is not there in plain sight for everyone to see, but a person must give up self to get on the road. Many are not willing to surrender to Jesus. Jesus invited a special people to the wedding. None chose to attend so He went to all the people and invited them. Somehow one was not dressed properly so he was not chosen. This is so with the multitudes today, they are called, but choose not to prepare by accepting belief.

Tom said: "The Gospel causes trouble wherever it goes. It overturns established traditions and empowers people to speak out and challenge their corrupt religious leaders. This has taken place within the SDA church for all to see, even as more reform is required in order to save the Advent Movement."

The Gospel brings joy to those who receive it. More reform in the SDA Church will not change what was false from the beginning. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Tom said: "Today, the Advent Movement has been judged to be doctrinally blind and spiritually naked. This is why it is self-destructing; because they have embraced a false view of the Gospel and the Judgment, as well as the doctrine of the Sabbath, and many other errors. Consequently, they must repent and reform or else... "

Don't hold your breath. A veil covers them. The blind are leading the blind. I thank the Lord I have been set free. I have discovered the simple plan of salvation.

Tom said: "The 2nd Coming is the only Judgment pillar in the Three Angels Messages. The Pre-Advent Judgment is not the IJ, but the Laodicean Message is the PAJ. So all SDA’s must repent for being so wrong for so long."

"While Sunday is a fraud, and only the 7th day is the correct day for NC Sabbath, the SDA’s have embraced the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the Pharisees, the enemies of Christ. Such a view is incompatible with the Gospel teachings of Christ. So the SDA’s have embraced the WRONG doctrine of the Sabbath. They need to admit this great sin and REPENT, going forward to complete NC Sabbath Reform, which is their destiny."

Sunday is a fraud only by those who claim it is the new covenant Sabbath. Most Christians know better today. We know God will hear our prayers and supplications any and all days of the week. The Sabbath was made for the Israelites. Gentiles were never ask to observe it. There is no command in the New Testament to observe it. There is no plan in the New Testament for observing it. Your mind is deceiving you Tom. You are in a state of mind no better than the ones you are battling against.

Tom said: "It is time for the SDA’s to wake up from their sleep and REPENT for their false, OC view of the Sabbath, embracing the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ."

"It is also time for the Advent Movement to correctly understand Gospel eschatology, and to develop a credible, 21st century view of how the world will really end. Sunday laws have nothing to do with the Time of Trouble, nor does the Bible teach such doctrine."

"It is time for OC Adventism to become NC Adventism."

"It is time for the Advent Movement to move forward and develop the 4th and final message that will prepare the church for the Great Tribulation that will end the world, as we know it. Who is prepared for the Judgments of God and the Apocalypse? No one. And the SDA’s no longer promote the 2nd Coming or even seem to care about eschatology. Sad."

It is time for you to come out of your stupor, give up your false NC Sabbath and join Paul and the millions who have rightly divided the Word.

bob_2 · 03-09-12 1:04 am

bshields said:

Sunday is a fraud only by those who claim it is the new covenant Sabbath. Most Christians know better today. We know God will hear our prayers and supplications any and all days of the week. The Sabbath was made for the Israelites. Gentiles were never ask to observe it. There is no command in the New Testament to observe it. There is no plan in the New Testament for observing it. Your mind is deceiving you Tom. You are in a state of mind no better than the ones you are battling against.

Right on!!!!!

To me, those that insist on a Sabbath day being part of the Gospel, is like someone believing they must kill lambs in their backyard or the backyard of the Temple or Synagogue. The Jews consider the first 5 books of the Bible as a whole, the Torah which includes the Dialogue, nowhere does the NT/NC command a Sabbath day. There are new tenets in the New Covenant, that has better promises Heb 8:6.

Last edited by bob_2 (03-09-12 4:01 pm)

bob_2 · 03-12-12 5:00 am

It puzzles me every time the Sabbath is brought up for discussion. Why is a day even discussed? After the OLd Covenant ends the New Covenant says nothing about "a rest day" but does mention that Christ with His ability to forgive sin fulfills the "soul rest" the Christian is in need of. Col 2:16, 17 says Jesus is the "reality" of the OC Sabbath, one of the "Better Promises" that forms the basis of the NC. The "rest that remains" is not what was already established and kept as well as OC believers could, otherwise they would have been stoned. So what persists in Hebrews 4. "Sabbatismos" is uniquely used, and when read in context refers to the rest not yet attained, which is the Christian's ultimate goal, our rest in heaven where there is no more struggle, no more unrestful souls of believers. The race Paul speaks of has been run, the fight has been fought.

When Paul finally told the Jews, "your blood be on your own head, I now will go to the gentiles" the next meeting was next door and the next day. No discussion of a rest day entered the discussion, other than for convenience of the congregation. Even Christ, under the Old Covenant when asked which was the "greatest commandment" did not say the 4th like the SDA prophet has, her vision of a halo around the 4th commandment. Why the stubbornness to insist on a day of any stripe. The only thing I can image is a people wanting a unique self proclaimed moniker, compared to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The problem here is there is no command to support such a notion.

Therefore the Christian should meet with fellow believers on a consensus day, and use the time to study what Paul was shown about the Gospel three years in the Arabian desert:

Gal 1: 11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.

Last edited by bob_2 (03-12-12 5:02 am)

tom_norris · 03-25-12 10:05 pm

Bsheilds said: I beg to disagree. It (Reformed Sabbath) is either your invention or you are the spokesman for it.

Tom said: How can anyone today take credit for inventing a 1st century doctrine? It’s a little late my friend.

The Reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ was invented by Jesus in the 1st century, and clearly recorded in all four Gospels. Being a “spokesman” or promoter for a long forgotten doctrine is very different than being its inventor.

Like I said: I did not invent the Gospel, or the NC Sabbath, nor do I have any power or authority to change any doctrine of Christ in the slightest, and neither do you.

So you need to stop attacking the messenger, (“spokesman”) and deal with this new truth in a responsible manner.

The point here is to follow the Gospel. To follow the teachings of Christ about the Sabbath, and everything else.

Bsheilds said: If Jesus started a new covenant Sabbath then He kiued in Matt 5 when He said: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Tom said: First off; There is no “if” about the NC Sabbath, as if there is some doubt that there is a Sabbath for the church.

It is clear that Jesus teaches a very controversial, 7th day, NC Sabbath in all four Gospels. This is irrefutable and self-evident for all to see. Open your eyes and read the Gospels. Learn from Jesus and understand the Gospel Sabbath.

Second, the text you quoted is not the correct passage to learn the details about the Gospel Sabbath. Why does the NCT crowd play these games; ignoring the many passages where Jesus defines and teaches his Reformed, active Sabbath, so they can point to diversions?

Those that want to understand the Sabbath teaching of Christ must go to the correct passages where he deals with this topic. There are many to choose from in all four Gospels.

Bshields said: Funny no Christian ever saw a new covenant Sabbath from the Apostles on until you and your cohorts came upon the scene.

Tom said: Wrong. The apostles embraced the NC Sabbath of Christ. So much so, that the religious leaders complained that they were breaking the OC Sabbath.

Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.

Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”

The 7th day Gospel Sabbath was also called the Lord’s Day, however, in the post-apostolic church, it became Sunday. This was the NC Sabbath for the church, and to this day, most all churches worship on Sunday because they are trying to follow Jesus teaching about the Sabbath.

The SDB’s and the SDA’s came along and declared the Sunday Lord’s Day wrong, correctly teaching that only the 7th day can be the proper day of the week for the NC Sabbath.

However, while the SDA’s were correct to a point, they nonetheless failed to understand the Gospel, and thus embraced the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the Jews. They missed the Gospel Sabbath because they were blinded by legalism.

Now it is time for all to repent and embrace the genuine, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.

Tom said: "First, the Gospel is ancient and very, very, difficult to understand today. Even in the first century, when it was new, the majority could not understand it, and so it has ever been. In fact, Jesus teaches that only a few who hear the Gospel will embrace it and find Eternal Life."

See Jesus teaching about the sower: only 25% of those who hear the Gospel are saved.

Matt. 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower.

Bsheilds replied: That is nothing but a blatant lie Tom. Even a child is able to understand the plan of salvation.

Tom said: While many assume the Gospel is easy to understand, because this is what they have been taught by the incompetent clergy, Jesus does not support such a view. The NT teaches that the Gospel is hard to comprehend and embrace, and few will do so.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

In fact, the 1st century Gospel was so misunderstood that Christ could not preach it clearly. He had to speak in parables because it was so hard for the Jews to understand.

Matt. 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

If the Gospel were easy to understand, the Jews would have become a Christian Nation and there would not be so much division within the church today.

Nor would there be a legion of different Christ’s, - all teaching different doctrine. Nor would the last church be the worst church, where all denominations have been judged to have embraced a false and worthless Gospel.

Tom quoted: Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Bsheilds replied: It is not that the road is not there in plain sight for everyone to see, but a person must give up self to get on the road. Many are not willing to surrender to Jesus. Jesus invited a special people to the wedding. None chose to attend so He went to all the people and invited them. Somehow one was not dressed properly so he was not chosen. This is so with the multitudes today, they are called, but choose not to prepare by accepting belief.

Tom said; Jesus teaches that the Gospel is HIDDEN from most people. Which means it is not “in plain sight” as you claim.

Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.

Matt. 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Moreover, one reason why people refuse to “give up self” (whatever that means?) is because they become too invested with personal tradition and false doctrine. Like those that embrace Traditional Adventism or NCT.

Many hate to admit error, even as some are too lazy or preoccupied with life to dig deep and find truth. Such is the broad road, which NCT, as well as Traditional Adventism, is following.

Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Whatever reason or excuse people have for not following Jesus, the fact remains that only a few will be saved. This is what Jesus teaches. So how can it be false as you charge?

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Tom said: "The Gospel causes trouble wherever it goes. It overturns established traditions and empowers people to speak out and challenge their corrupt religious leaders. This has taken place within the SDA church for all to see, even as more reform is required in order to save the Advent Movement."

Bsheilds replied: The Gospel brings joy to those who receive it. More reform in the SDA Church will not change what was false from the beginning. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Tom said: For the few that understand and embrace the Gospel, there is great joy. This will never change. Even those today, as they find the Gospel, can rejoice and claim Eternal Life. Even SDA’s, if they repent of their OC ways and false doctrines.

However, before the SDA’s, can become joyful and saved through the Gospel, they must first repent and confess their many false doctrines, including their error about the OC Sabbath and the IJ, and tithe, etc. There is no Eternal Life for anyone who is following the OC. Only the NC Gospel is salvific.

Moreover, this remark that the SDA’s are “wrong from the beginning” is disrespectful, naïve, and wrong.

First off, you must not be aware that the apostles were all “wrong from the beginning.” Not only did they not understand the Gospel correctly, they abandoned Christ at his time of need. They were very wrong about many things.

But yet, being wrong did not stop the progress of Gospel truth. Thus the church was born in error and great disappointment, even the rejection of Christ by the Jews. Thus it is clear that errors and mistakes do not invalidate Gospel truth. Not for the apostolic church and not for the Advent Movement.

Second, the Advent Movement was founded on much needed truth about the 2nd Coming. The Adventists were not in error on this basic point, regardless of their obvious error about timing.

The Advent Movement was built on solid truth. So much so, that today, every church and denomination in the land now embraces the pre-millennial, literal, 2nd Coming, including a time of Tribulation.

The Adventists forever changed the eschatological platform of the modern church. Rather then ignore such an important contribution; you need to give them some credit.

Your slam against the Advent Movement shows your own ignorance of church history, as well as your prejudice towards the SDA’s. God can make something good out of anything, even the Jews and the SDA’s.

The Advent Movement is not over. It just needs to be recalibrated for the 21st century. This is what Adventist Reform is all about, and so too the 4th Angels Message.

Tom said: "Today, the Advent Movement has been judged to be doctrinally blind and spiritually naked. This is why it is self-destructing; because they have embraced a false view of the Gospel and the Judgment, as well as the very pillars that define Adventism. Consequently, they must repent and reform or else... "

Bsheilds replied: Don't hold your breath. A veil covers them. The blind are leading the blind. I thank the Lord I have been set free. I have discovered the simple plan of salvation.

Tom said: The SDA’s must either embrace correct Gospel change, or self-destruct. The choice is up to them. If not, others will do their duty, just like the Gentiles had to take over the Gospel from the unbelieving Jews.

The SDA’s can either repent and embrace Gospel Reform and move forward to re-energize Adventism through the development of the 4th Angels Message; or remain a cultic laughing stock, defending their absurd and false doctrines, no matter the facts.

As for you being set free from OC Adventism, good for you. But no one is saved by the discovery of error. We are only saved by the Gospel, which you do not yet understand correctly.

Any that follow NCT, thinking that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath, does not understand the plan of salvation or the Sabbath correctly. Sorry.

Many former SDA’s have exchanged one set of false doctrines for another set of errors. When challenged they act just like they did when they were SDA’s, mindlessly defending error and misusing the Bible. Sad.

The only escape from OC Adventism is to repent and move forward to NC Adventism.

The only escape from the failed and terminated 3rd Angels Message-- is forward to the 4th Angels Message. The last and most correct of all the Advent Messages.

Tom said: The 2nd Coming is the only Judgment pillar in the Three Angels Messages. The Pre-Advent Judgment is not the IJ, but the Laodicean Message is. So all SDA’s must repent for being so wrong for so long.

While Sunday is a fraud, and only the 7th day is the correct day for NC Sabbath, the SDA’s have embraced the OC “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the Pharisees, the enemies of Christ. This is the WRONG Sabbath, even though it is the correct day.

The SDA Sabbath is incompatible with the Gospel teachings of Christ. So the SDA’s have embraced the WRONG doctrine of the Sabbath. They need to admit this great sin and REPENT, going forward to complete NC Sabbath Reform, which is their destiny."

Bshields said: Sunday is a fraud only by those who claim it is the new covenant Sabbath. Most Christians know better today.

Tom replied: Ha! You just slammed more than a billion church members. MOST Christians, both RC and P, embrace Sunday as the NC Sabbath and Lord’s Day. It is only the small and loud NCT crowd that has taken this view that there is no Sabbath for the church. They are wrong, even as they are making fools of themselves as they meet every Sunday.

Most all Christians believe in a weekly Sabbath for the church.

NCT represents less than 1%, even as they themselves go to church regularly on Sunday, (which makes no sense).

So even this No Sabbath / Every Day Sabbath/ Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath teaching is not followed by those who promote it. Which means that no church really follows this utter nonsense. That’s how bad NCT really is. Those who teach it can’t even follow it.

NCT is garbage.

Bsheilds said: We know God will hear our prayers and supplications any and all days of the week.

Tom said: We only know this about prayer because Jesus teaches it. Likewise, we only know the truth about the NC Sabbath by the same method, which is through the study of Jesus’ teachings in the Gospels.

Those that want to follow the Gospel Sabbath must go to Christ, in the Gospels, and learn the doctrine FROM JESUS. Period.

Bsheilds said: The Sabbath was made for the Israelites.

Tom said: While there is some truth to this observation, Jesus teaches that his doctrine of the Sabbath was made for humanity, not just the Israelites. Of course he was talking about the NC Sabbath, not the OC Sabbath.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

The word Jew is not in this passage. Which means that Christ is not saying that the NC Sabbath was made for the Jews, but for all mankind. Look up the Greek and see for yourself.

Moreover, those who embrace the Gospel must also become spiritual members of Israel; they are not to remain in a Gentile state of mind. So it makes sense for a NC Sabbath to be associated with NC, spiritual Israel, which is the church.

Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Bsheilds said: Gentiles were never asked to observe it.

Tom said: While no Gentile could fully embrace the OC Law unless they become circumcised and converted to Judaism, this does not work for the Gospel, where Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath for humanity, even as he teaches that all must follow him for salvation.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Those Gentiles who follow Christ must become spiritual Jews and embrace the teachings of Jesus, including what he teaches about the reformed, active Sabbath. This is the context of the Good Shepherd motif. It is about the NC Sabbath of Christ.

Bsheilds said: There is no command in the New Testament to observe it.

Tom said: While there is “no command” for anyone to follow the OC Sabbath of the Jews, Jesus reformed this doctrine for all that followed him. Thus he teaches a NC, active Sabbath for the church, the NC Israel of God. Those who follow the genuine Christ must embrace his view of the Sabbath.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Bsheilds said: There is no plan in the New Testament for observing it.

Tom said: The church has always observed a weekly Sabbath. This has been their practice and plan since the ministry of Christ. Which is why the church today, meaning all denominations, worships once a week like clockwork.

Thus the Sabbath doctrine has been part of the “plan,” practice, and history of the church from the beginning, and so it will forever be. (The fact it has been on Sunday is beside the point.)

Bsheilds said: Your mind is deceiving you Tom. You are in a state of mind no better than the ones you are battling against.

Tom said: Ha! Those who teach the Gospel correctly are often called crazy and insane. This is what happened to Jesus and this will also happen to those that embrace his teachings.

John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

Matt. 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.

Matt. 10:25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Tom said: "It is time for the SDA’s to wake up from their sleep and REPENT for their false, OC view of the Sabbath, embracing the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ."

Matt. 25:5 “Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.

"It is also time for the Advent Movement to correctly understand Gospel eschatology, and to develop a credible, 21st century view of how the world will really end. Sunday laws have nothing to do with the Time of Trouble, nor does the Bible teach such doctrine."

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

It is time for OC Adventism to become NC Adventism."

It is time for the Advent Movement to move forward and develop the 4th and final message that will prepare the church for the Great Tribulation that will end the world, as we know it.

Who is prepared for the Judgments of God and the Apocalypse? No one. The SDA’s have no credible eschatology and thus they no longer promote the 2nd Coming or even seem to care about Gospel eschatology. Sad.

Bsheilds replied: It is time for you to come out of your stupor, give up your false NC Sabbath and join Paul and the millions who have rightly divided the Word.

Tom said: Paul does not support NCT, and neither does Jesus or the NT. Moreover, this idea that Jesus failed to articulate and define a NC Sabbath for the church, thus leaving it up to Paul, and the 1970’s NCT crowd is beyond absurd.

Jesus is the self-proclaimed Lord of the NC Sabbath, and he clearly and repeatedly teaches his unique Sabbath doctrine in all four Gospels. Only a blind person, or someone that hates the doctrine of the Sabbath, could claim otherwise.

Moreover, Paul embraces and defends Jesus Gospel Sabbath, and so too the entire NT, including the apostle John who refers to it as the Lord’s Day.

NCT is great error and blasphemy. Whoever drinks this poison will soon become very disoriented, unable to understand the law or the Gospel correctly. They will forfeit Eternal Life.

Bob 2 said: To me, those that insist on a Sabbath day being part of the Gospel, is like someone believing they must kill lambs in their backyard or the backyard of the Temple or Synagogue.

Tom said: The OC Sabbath is NOT a part of the Gospel, as the SDA’s incorrectly teach, and neither is the OC sacrificial offering at the Temple, which was managed by the Levites and supported by Tithe.

However, Jesus’ reformed, NC Sabbath, is part of the Law of Christ. It is doctrine for the church. Not the OC Sabbath, but the NC Sabbath.

Bsheilds said: The Jews consider the first 5 books of the Bible as a whole, the Torah which includes the Dialogue, nowhere does the NT/NC command a Sabbath day. There are new tenets in the New Covenant, that has better promises Heb 8:6.

Tom said: Only a blind person could miss the many places in the Gospels where Jesus teaches his controversial NC Sabbath.

How can anyone read the NT and then declare that Jesus failed to teach a Sabbath for the church? They just don’t like what Jesus teaches on this point, so they deny the facts that condemn them and make up their own doctrine.

Bsheilds said: It puzzles me every time the Sabbath is brought up for discussion. Why is a day even discussed? After the Old Covenant ends the New Covenant says nothing about "a rest day" but does mention that Christ with His ability to forgive sin fulfills the "soul rest" the Christian is in need of. Col 2:16, 17 says Jesus is the "reality" of the OC Sabbath, one of the "Better Promises" that forms the basis of the NC.

Tom said: You are puzzled because you misunderstand the Gospel and the NC teachings of Christ. The Sabbath was one of Jesus’ favorite topics. Which is why the Gospels record so much about Jesus reformed and controversial NC Sabbath. Only a blind person could claim that Jesus failed to teach a Gospel Sabbath for the church.

No doubt you think it strange that every denomination in the world meets every Sunday or Saturday, without fail. Why has the church been doing this all these many years? Because Jesus failed to teach a doctrine of the Sabbath? Hardly.

Moreover, the NC Sabbath is NOT a rest day as you have been incorrectly indoctrinated to believe by the SDA’s. So stop looking for the OC Sabbath in the NC. It is not there. However, there is a NC Sabbath, which is featured in all four Gospels. THIS IS THE SABBATH FOR THE CHURCH.

So you are the problem, not the NT doctrine of the Sabbath. NCT has blinded you.

Bsheilds said: The "rest that remains" is not what was already established and kept as well as OC believers could, otherwise they would have been stoned. So what persists in Hebrews 4? "Sabbatismos" is uniquely used, and when read in context refers to the rest not yet attained, which is the Christian's ultimate goal, our rest in heaven where there is no more struggle, no more unrestful souls of believers.

Tom said: The NC Sabbath is NOT about rest, but good works.

Furthermore, this word in Hebrews 4:9 does not mean our rest in heaven. Rather, it is a reference to the NC Sabbath for the church on earth.

Heb 4: 9 Therefore, a time of rest and worship exists for God's people.

Heb 4: 9 There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.

Douay-Rheims Bible 
http://drb.scripturetext.com/hebrews/4.htm

You need to stop being so dishonest with the facts. You will never understand the Gospel Sabbath with such an incompetent, anti-Sabbath view of the NT.

Bsheilds said: When Paul finally told the Jews, "your blood be on your own head, I now will go to the gentiles" the next meeting was next door and the next day. No discussion of a rest day entered the discussion, other than for convenience of the congregation.

Tom said: Jesus is the author of the Gospel Sabbath. You must go find his teachings about the Sabbath in the Gospels to learn about this doctrine. Go learn the Gospel Sabbath from Christ. He is the correct source.

Bsheilds said: Even Christ, under the Old Covenant when asked which was the "greatest commandment" did not say the 4th like the SDA prophet has, her vision of a halo around the 4th commandment.

Tom said: The SDA’s are very wrong to embrace the OC Sabbath. But such an error does not give anyone license to repudiate Jesus NC Sabbath teaching. Or to make up worthless theories about the Sabbath as NCT has done. You need to stop allowing the many errors of the SDA’s to control your view of the NT.

Bsheilds said: Why the stubbornness to insist on a day of any stripe. The only thing I can image is a people wanting a unique self-proclaimed moniker, compared to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The problem here is there is no command to support such a notion.

Tom said: It is not stubborn to follow the teachings of Christ. Those that follow the Gospel Sabbath of Christ are not rebels but wise men.

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”

Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;

Bsheilds said: Therefore the Christian should meet with fellow believers on a consensus day, and use the time to study what Paul was shown about the Gospel three years in the Arabian desert:

Tom replied: Ha! This is too funny. Was Jesus Lord of the “consensus” Sabbath? Hardly.

Since when is any Gospel doctrine decided by the wishes of the people? If this were the case, the Pope has authority, and Sunday would be the NC Sabbath for the church, even as the Secret Rapture would also become true doctrine. But this is impossible and so too is your view that we are to let Paul instruct the church about the Sabbath.

The arguments you use to defend NCT are horrible. It should be clear by now that you cannot refute what the NT so clearly teaches.

There is a NC Sabbath for the church. Those who think otherwise do not understand the Gospel or the teachings of Christ.

When the Gospel is correctly understood by the church, so too the doctrine of the NC Sabbath.

When the SDA’s repent for their legalism and incorrect OC Sabbath, (if they ever do), they will be able to understand the Gospel Sabbath and move forward to the 4th Angels Message. If not, others will take their place and do their duty.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 03-26-12 9:15 am

Tom said:

It is clear that Jesus teaches a very controversial, 7th day, NC Sabbath in all four Gospels. This is irrefutable and self-evident for all to see. Open your eyes and read the Gospels. Learn from Jesus and understand the Gospel Sabbath.

Tom, when did the New Covenant begin? Jesus words were stated in the Gospel as One that needed to keep the OC Law perfectly. He pointed forward to His Kingdom, the NC, but one has to read the gospels with discernment to see what and when he is talking about. He didn't come to abolish, but to fulfill. As an attorney studies case law, it is a case that has happened, it is saved for the attorneys to learn from. Once judgement has taken place on the case, it is fulfilled and may be the basis for a change in the law. The key words Tom, are "abolish" and "fulfill" or "complete". The OT is for us to learn from but Christ's Law is what is in place in the NT once the NC starts.

I saw this interesting comment by someone explaining salvation. "We can not work FOR our salvation, only FROM our salvation." What you claim about the Sabbath sounds like working for your salvation. If you are saved or have salvation, you are at rest in Christ.

Last edited by bob_2 (03-26-12 4:48 pm)

tom_norris · 03-26-12 9:48 pm

Bob said: Tom, when did the New Covenant begin?

Tom replied: When Jesus was born, the NC began. His Gospel ministry and teachings were NC in nature and purpose, and so too his Reformed Sabbath.

Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Mark 1:15 “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Bob said: Jesus words were stated in the Gospel as One that needed to keep the OC Law perfectly.

Tom said: You misunderstand the Gospels and Jesus words. Jesus did not keep the OC perfectly, as you claim. He was a great Sabbath breaker, which disproves your point, even as he repudiated the Levites and cursed the Temple. So Jesus broke the OC rules many times.

Bob said: He pointed forward to His Kingdom, the NC, but one has to read the gospels with discernment to see what and when he is talking about. He didn't come to abolish, but to fulfill.

Tom said: Jesus came to preach and teach the Gospel, even dying on the cross for mankind and thus inaugurating the NC with his blood. This is what he came to fulfill, not the Sabbath.

Luke 22:37 “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”

There is NO OT prophecy about the Messiah “fulfilling the Sabbath.” Which is why Jesus never made such a claim.

However, he did reform the OC Sabbath into a NC, Gospel doctrine for the church. This is what you need to accept.

Bob said: As an attorney studies case law, it is a case that has happened, it is saved for the attorneys to learn from. Once judgment has taken place on the case, it is fulfilled and may be the basis for a change in the law.

Tom said: Sorry. Your attempts to defend NCT are worthless. Jesus teaching in the Gospels is all about the NC. Including his new and active doctrine about the Sabbath, for which he was sent to the cross.

Bob said: The key words Tom, are "abolish" and "fulfill" or "complete". The OT is for us to learn from, but Christ's Law is what is in place in the NT. once the NC starts.

Tom said: The “key word” is the Gospel. The “law of Christ,” which are his Gospel teachings, includes his reformed and controversial, NC Sabbath.

Moreover, your double-talk does nothing to make the false doctrine of NCT correct. Jesus did not fulfill the Sabbath as NCT claims, much less abolish it. There are no such prophecies or doctrines in the Bible. Sorry.

Bob said: I saw this interesting comment by someone explaining salvation. "We can not work FOR our salvation, only FROM our salvation. What you claim about the Sabbath sounds like working for your salvation.

Tom said: This saying is neither interesting or from the Bible, nor does it refute the Gospel Sabbath under discussion.

Moreover, the Gospel Sabbath is not a legalistic doctrine as you claim. In fact, it is a very anti-law doctrine because it features an EXEMPTION from the 4th Commandment.

So how can it be legalistic? Jesus Gospel Sabbath subordinates the law to his Gospel authority, doing an end run around what has been commanded by the voice of God and written in the Law of Moses.

The Gospel Sabbath is about the Gospel, not the law. It is about faith in Christ, not obedience to Moses and the Law.

The NC Sabbath is not about rest and refraining from work on the 7th day, but about activity and doing many good works.

Bob, you really don’t understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath as yet. This is the real problem. I suggest that you repent of NCT so that you can understand the genuine teachings of Christ.

Let all learn the Gospel Sabbath from Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bshields · 03-26-12 11:19 pm

Tom, If Jesus started changing the covenants at birth, which there is no evidence of happening, then He must have told an untruth there in Matt 5 when He elaborated 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. He had not changed any part of the law during His ministry. For some reason I have to believe Jesus over you Tom. I wonder why?

I started answering your previous post and had to leave, when I came back the computer had rebooted and I lost it. I will try again tomorrow.

cadge · 03-27-12 8:47 am

Tom said in reply to Bob2:
" Jesus teaching in the Gospels is all about the NC. Including his new and active doctrine about the Sabbath, for which he was sent to the cross."

If you were making a joke here Tom, I could have a laugh with you, but I know you are serious, therefore it is a very sad comment. Jesus did not teach any New Covenant Gospel sabbath. If He had He would have made it clear in the numerous engagements that He had with the elders of Israel, and to all he spoke to while here in His physical presence and by revelation to Paul and the other New Covenant Apostles.

What He did teach, by revelation to Paul, was that some keep one day or another, and some keep every day alike. He also said to not let anyone judge you about food or drink or Sabbath days.

When one has the Holy Spirit in them, they have the indwelling presence of God, the anointing. That's what makes the fulfillment of "Christ in you, the hope of Glory" and we "sit with Him in heavenly places", in the "Jerusalem above which is free". We are set at liberty because the true rest is the anointing of the Holy spirit in us which is freely given to all who sincerely seek Him. As we partake of the "Bread of life" daily, His Word, the Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding and we become more intertwined with the mind of God and walk ever closer in "The way, the truth, and the life".

When we walk in the Spirit through daily communion with Him in Hearing Him speak to us in His word and meditation in depth on it, we are in Sabbath with Him. We are at peace even in the midst of chaos. We fear not what happens to the physical body, because it's just a vessel for the indwelling of the Spirit with our spirit. To us Shiloh, tranquility, has come,and we sit with Him in heavenly places. There is no day that saves us. What do you think the Holy Spirit, God, was saying through Paul when He said "and some keep every day alike" in Romans 14?

You also stated in reply to Bob2 when he quoted "We can not work FOR our salvation, only FROM our salvation." that "This saying is neither interesting or from the Bible, nor does it refute the Gospel Sabbath under discussion."

Actually Tom, Bob2 is correct. We work because of our salvation, not for it, so it is "from our salvation". We do works of compassion to the poor, as Jesus, Peter, James and Paul spoke of, and to the widows and orphans as James spoke of. We also do works of obedience by the direction and correction over inherited and cultivated traits of character as God gives us revelation through His word through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Only hearts obedience by willful submission, not duress, but in pleasure having come to trust Him rather than the impulses and urges of self; the natural heart. When we truly see the difference between the kingdom of darkness and the fallout of evils throughout the world, and even our own past experiences, we will no longer bow to that king of darkness nor contribute to his ways. We trust God against our own inclinations of the flesh as we overcome our ungodly traits and come to support His eternal kingdom of Light and all that is righteous because we realize that there is no life otherwise and there is "no good thing in the flesh". But we do not do this to earn our salvation, but in gratitude for it and in recognition that there is no other way of life, but His "Way, Truth and Life.

You are locked in the SDA structure and you think that you, like Dr. Ford, who I really appreciate are trying to bring the SDA church about to a true understanding of the Gospel, but it's not going to happen. they will not change their views on the IJ, nor Sundays Laws, unclean meats, alcohol, vegetarianism, and legalism, or they would have to dump their infallible prophet and their Jack Blanco bible, etc, etc, etc...! They will be ever in confusion, and have been with their differing factions. They waited for Jesus to come and preached He could come any day, but He can't come until the time of the ten toes government (Daniel 2) is set in place, the New World Order, which will come together as a world alliance of ten sections of the earth governed by ten leaders of common global law, but it will not hold. World uprising, the time of trouble such as never was and never again shall be will ensue and the plagues shall be poured out and the Lord will come in the midst of it and gather the elect from the four corners of the earth and establish His kingdom.

I hope this helps Tom.

cadge · 03-27-12 12:02 pm

Furthermore Tom, the SDA’s would have to break away from this nonsense: “I saw the state of the different churches since the second angel proclaimed their fall. They have been growing more and more corrupt; yet they bear the name of being Christ’s followers. It is impossible to distinguish them from the world. Their ministers take their text from the Word, but preach smooth things. The natural heart feels no objection to this. It is only the spirit and power of the truth, and the salvation of Christ, that is hateful to the carnal heart. There is nothing in the popular ministry that stirs the wrath of Satan, makes the sinner tremble, or applies to the heart and conscience the fearful realities of a judgment soon to come. …Satan has taken full possession of the churches as a body….. They are Satan’s own faithful servants, notwithstanding they have assumed another name. {1SG 189.1}
I saw that since Jesus had left the Holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary, and had entered within the second vail, the churches were left as were the Jews; and they have been filling up with every unclean and hateful bird. I saw great iniquity and vileness in the churches; yet they profess to be Christians. Their profession, their prayers and their exhortations, are an abomination in the sight of God. Said the angel, God will not smell in their assemblies. Selfishness, fraud and deceit are practiced by them without the reprovings of conscience. And over all these evil traits they throw the cloak of religion. I was shown the pride of the nominal churches. God was not in their thoughts; but their carnal minds dwell upon themselves. They decorate their poor mortal bodies, and then look upon themselves with satisfaction and pleasure. Jesus and the angels looked upon them in anger. Said the angel, Their sins and pride have reached unto heaven. Their portion is prepared. Justice and judgment have slumbered long, but will soon awake. Vengeance is mine, and I will repay, saith the Lord. The fearful threatenings of the third angel are to be realized, and they will drink the wrath of God. An innumerable host of evil angels are spreading themselves over the whole land. The churches and religious bodies are crowded with them. And they look upon the religious bodies with exultation; for the cloak of religion covers the greatest crimes and iniquity. {1SG 190.1}

And:
Early Writings : Page 54 End of the 2300 Days
I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." Before the throne I saw the Advent people--the church and the world. I saw two companies, one bowed down before the throne, deeply interested, while the other stood uninterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their prayers and look to Jesus; then He would look to His Father, and appear to be pleading with Him. A light would come from the Father to the Son and from the Son to the praying company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son it waved over the people before the throne. But few would receive this great light. Many came out from under it and immediately resisted it; others were careless and did not cherish the light, and it moved off from them. Some cherished it, and went and bowed down with the little praying company. This company all received the light and rejoiced in it, and their countenances shone with its glory.
I saw the Father rise from the throne, [See page 92.] and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace.
I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children. **
This is untrue Tom. These statements essentially say that the only ones with the Holy Spirit are the Seventh Day Adventists and that to be saved one would have to come into them. [The “funny” part of this is the view of William Johnsson in his book, THE FRAGMENTING OF ADVENTISM , where he stands in contradiction of Ellen White’s statement on the Holy Spirit’s breathing on other denominations: “…let me state how I regard the Seventh Day adventist Church in relation to other faith communions. I do not believe that we alone are God’s people. I do not believe that we are without fault. I do not believe that god is working only through us. God has His people everywhere—His true followers--- and He knows who they are. Nor is God’s Spirit bound or limited. God is sovereign, free, and works where and through whom He chooses”. Well that’s nice of Johnsson to be so gracious, but the SDA Church still sells the books and pushes the views of Ellen White that are clearly in direct opposition of what Johnsson states. Just more reason of why there is so much confusion in SDAism, and why so many have had to leave.] However God says “That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ , both which are in Heaven and which are on Earth; even in Him” .(Those who are filled with His Holy Spirit from Heaven and all denominations) It’s those whom ‘after we have believed were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession (when He comes to gather us together from all denominations) unto the praise of His glory” Eph 1:13-14.
Until then, by the power and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, through all denominations, “He gave some Apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ (Of which there are many members; denominations) till we all come in the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God, (until then we see through a glass darkly. But then we shall all see Him as He is and we will be like Him, all one with the Father; He in us and we in Him.) unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine.” Eph 4:10-13.

There are only two Gospels; The one of faith that the overcomers that will sit with Him in His throne have through the Power of the Holy Spirit as told in Romans 8:13, 2Cor 3:18 and Revelation 3:21.
The other is salvation by works. These are the ones who honor Him with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. They are the ones who try to proclaim all their wonderful works in His name, but He says, “I never knew you”. They would not allow the Holy Spirit to convict them of what they needed to overcome and they did not avail themselves of the power to do it. They had no intimate relationship with Him. He never knew them. These are those who are of the virgins who had no oil in their lamps; would not receive direction and correction to become one with Him.
These two factions exist in every church. They are known as the “wheat and the tares”, and will be separated at the harvest, not shaken out before He comes.
The judgment of the heart however, began at the victory of Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit. “NOW is the judgment of this world, NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out, and if I be lifted up from the Earth, will draw all men unto me”. Jn 12:31,32.
Rev 12:7”And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night”.
The “books” record when we receive or when we reject the direction and correction of God; whether we choose to avail ourselves of the Power of the Holy Spirit, or whether we choose to cleave to the ways of self; independence from “the Way, the Truth and the Life”. We accept the Holy Spirit’s instruction, or we grieve the Holy Spirit by rejecting what we are convicted of as truth. It didn’t start in 1844 and it doesn’t begin at His appearing. When He comes His reward is with Him. The judgments at the end are the plagues and time of trouble and the separating of the sheep and goats; wheat and tares; the harvesting by the angles with the sickles in Rev 14.
But Tom, if you think that you have to keep a Seventh Day Sabbath, then you’d better do it because only hearts of willing obedience spurred on by a loving relationship with God will be in the eternal society of beings after the restoration of all things.
I really hope this helps.
Cadge

bob_2 · 03-27-12 7:50 pm

Tom, Hebrews 9 tells you when the New Covenant started, when Christ's blood was spilt. That was at His death. Again, you must read what Christ says in the Gospels and at the end of the Gospels, His death.

The Gospels do not have the beginning of the NC until Christ dies. You will have to show me in scriptures anything different. If we are to do everything He talks about in the 4 Gospels before His death, we would need to do all the Festivals and animal sacrifices also. That is not what the Bible tells us to do after His death, is it???

cadge · 03-28-12 8:30 am

And Tom, the really strange and confusing thing is that Ellen White "borrowed" from the contemporary Christian writers of her time (Edersheim, Boyd, March etc.) that she claimed were of the apostate churches filled with "every unclean and hateful bird". These being the Sunday keepers that did not follow Jesus from the Holy place to the Most Holy place in 1844, did not accept the Sabbath and IJ teachings, and as she claimed were not breathed upon by the Holy Spirit when they worshiped and prayed, but by Satan impersonating Jesus and breathing upon them his spirit where their prayers and worship went no further than the abandoned Holy place which was then occupied by Satan? One of many troubles here is that Satan was already then cast out of the heavenly realm.
Can you even begin to grasp the BIG problems here? They are still selling the books that make these absurd claims.

Last edited by cadge (03-28-12 8:35 am)

bob_2 · 03-28-12 1:38 pm

Tom said: Sorry. Your attempts to defend NCT are worthless. Jesus teaching in the Gospels is all about the NC. Including his new and active doctrine about the Sabbath, for which he was sent to the cross.

Tom there were two stated reasons for Christ's death, His claim to be God, and His doing things on the Sabbath that are not stated in the Bible as being disallowed by the original laws of the Sabbath. If you are saying the only rules for Sabbath were those based on a desert economy, you would have to say the Synagogue was also against the original Sabbath. Who authorized the Synagogue worship ? It was Jesus custom to worship in the Synagogue during His life under the Law (OC).

John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Tom where does the Bible state that anything He was doing on the Sabbath was illegal the way God had commanded the Sabbath. I think you will find man's laws only that the Pharisees had thought up, not God/Jesus. So Christ really went to the cross for claiming to be God. God and His Son had before the foundations of the earth worked out salvation for man, and Jesus was intimately acquainted with this plan. The Sabbath desecration could only be claimed to be desecrated by the Jews. No one else had been given the Sabbath. Jesus wasn't reforming the Sabbath for the NC, but clarifying how the Pharisees had corrupted the Sabbath since it was given. Jesus never said it was wrong to do good on the Sabbath and then reformed it to something else. He fulfilled the Law of Moses, Luke 24:44.

Read Psalms 23, is that not talking about the rest the Shepard/Jesus was to bring. Col 2:16, 17 states the reality of the Sabbath is found in Jesus. Tom you want a reformed Sabbath whether Jesus commanded it or not. "We can't work for our Salvation, only from our Salvation"

Last edited by bob_2 (03-28-12 1:42 pm)

tom_norris · 03-31-12 9:43 am

Bsheilds said; Tom, If Jesus started changing the covenants at birth, which there is no evidence of that happening, then He must have told an untruth there in Matt 5 when He elaborated 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. He had not changed any part of the law during His ministry. For some reason I have to believe Jesus over you Tom. I wonder why?

Tom said: Jesus represents the NC, not the OC. When he was born, the NC arrived on earth. (Christmas.) Then Christ went public with his NC Gospel. This is when he taught a big “change in the Covenants.” The Gospel Sabbath was a part his NC teaching and behavior.

Those that refute the NC teachings of Christ, and argue against his position on the Sabbath, are not following the genuine Christ. They do not understand nor believe the teachings of Jesus. They are acting like the Jews, who also hated his view of the Sabbath.

Tom further said in reply to Bob2: Jesus teaching in the Gospels is all about the NC. Including his new and active doctrine about the Sabbath, for which he was sent to the cross."

Cadge replied: If you were making a joke here Tom, I could have a laugh with you, but I know you are serious, therefore it is a very sad comment. Jesus did not teach any New Covenant Gospel sabbath.

Tom said: Ha! The joke is on you! The Gospels are clear that Jesus teaches a very different Sabbath from Moses, - for the church. Only a blind person could deny such a fact, as well as ignore the long history of the church. No church has never embraced NCT, and for good reason.

Cadge said: If He (Jesus) had He would have made it clear in the numerous engagements that He had with the elders of Israel, and to all he spoke to while here in His physical presence and by revelation to Paul and the other New Covenant Apostles.

Tom said: The Gospels are very clear about this point. Deny the words and teachings of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, at your own risk.

Which is to say; be ready to explain to Christ, on the Judgment day, that his Sabbath doctrine, as well as many other things, was not clear. And that you thought the Moral law was abolished, and that Christ had fulfilled the Sabbath, and blah, blah, blah…

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Cadge said: What He did teach, by revelation to Paul, was that some keep one day or another, and some keep every day alike. He also said to not let anyone judge you about food or drink or Sabbath days.

Tom said: Jesus did not teach anything different to Paul, from what he taught the rest of the apostles.

Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath, nor the inventor of the Gospel Sabbath.

Nor was Paul sent to the Cross because of his controversial Sabbath teaching, like Christ.

Those who follow Christ must do so. They are not to ignore his Gospel teachings so they can run to Paul and twist is words into something they like better.

Jesus teaches a NC, Gospel Sabbath in all four Gospels. This NCT idea that he failed to do this, or that he was promoting the OC Sabbath of Moses, is absurd and against the clear, recorded evidence of the NT.

Cadge said: When one has the Holy Spirit in them, they have the indwelling presence of God, the anointing. That's what makes the fulfillment of "Christ in you, the hope of Glory" and we "sit with Him in heavenly places", in the "Jerusalem above which is free".

Tom said: We only have the genuine Spirit if we follow the genuine teachings of Christ in the Gospels. Those who follow a false Christ are following a false Spirit, as well as a false view of the Sabbath.

2Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless indeed you fail the test?

Those who embrace a false Sabbath, which is all of Laodicea, have embraced a false Christ. The Christ they think is “in them” is a fraud of their own making. They have FAILED the test.

Cadge said: We are set at liberty because the true rest is the anointing of the Holy spirit in us which is freely given to all who sincerely seek Him. As we partake of the "Bread of life" daily, His Word, the Holy Spirit illuminates our understanding and we become more intertwined with the mind of God and walk ever closer in "The way, the truth, and the life".

Tom said: No professed Christian is at liberty to marginalize, revise, or repudiate the Gospel teachings of Christ, which are also known as the “law of Christ.” This goes for the Sabbath as well as everything else.

Cadge said: When we walk in the Spirit through daily communion with Him in Hearing Him speak to us in His word and meditation in depth on it, we are in Sabbath with Him. We are at peace even in the midst of chaos. We fear not what happens to the physical body, because it's just a vessel for the indwelling of the Spirit with our spirit.

Tom said: STOP. There is no such Every Day Sabbath as you claim. This is a false, made up, doctrine by the NCT crowd. There is no such phrase or teaching in the Bible that states we should be “in Sabbath with Him.”

Jesus does not teach this nonsense about the Sabbath. Those who have the genuine Spirit of Christ will respect and follow his Words. Not make things up to defend false doctrine.

While the SDA’s, Mormons, and others have embraced a host of false doctrines, so too the NCT crowd. Their view of the Sabbath is very wrong, and so too their Gospel and many others things.

Mark 7:7 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’

Cadge said: To us Shiloh, tranquility, has come, and we sit with Him in heavenly places.

Tom said: This point about “realized eschatology” does not refute or diminish the Gospel Sabbath of Christ whatsoever.

Cadge said: There is no day that saves us.

Tom said: I never said otherwise.

Cadge said: What do you think the Holy Spirit, God, was saying through Paul when He said "and some keep every day alike" in Romans 14?

Tom said: First off, the correct source to understand the Gospel Sabbath, - is Jesus. Christ is the author, defender, and promoter of the Gospel Sabbath, not Paul. All must go to Christ to learn the Gospel Sabbath.

Second, the Spirit cannot invent new doctrine. It can only promote what Christ has already spoken and taught. Thus Jesus teaches that the Spirit focuses on the words of Christ, not the words of Paul.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

All that follow Christ must follow his Spirit and teaching, embracing his view of the Sabbath. Period.

Cadge said: Actually Tom, Bob2 is correct. We work because of our salvation, not for it, so it is "from our salvation."

Tom said: Such bumper sticker religion is dangerous. Why not quote the actual words of Jesus to make your point? Why quote nameless authors when we can go directly to Christ?

Cadge said: We trust God against our own inclinations of the flesh as we overcome our ungodly traits and come to support His eternal kingdom of Light and all that is righteous because we realize that there is no life otherwise and there is "no good thing in the flesh". But we do not do this to earn our salvation, but in gratitude for it and in recognition that there is no other way of life, but His "Way, Truth and Life.

Tom said: Any that repudiate the Gospel teachings of Christ are not “trusting God.” Rather, they are enemies of the Gospel, playing fast and loose with the Word.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Luke 6:47 “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:

Luke 6:48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.

Luke 6:49 “But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

Cadge said: You are locked in the SDA structure and you think that you, like Dr. Ford, who I really appreciate are trying to bring the SDA church about to a true understanding of the Gospel, but it's not going to happen.

Tom said: I am locked into the Gospel and to the fundamentals of the Protestant Faith.

Moreover, the SDA church has routinely repudiated the Gospel, and thus I have no illusions that they will ever repent and change their ways.

But truth goes on regardless. Eschatology is not going to wait for the SDA’s to get their act together.

If the leaders refuse to repent and reform, so what?

The Adventist Community can go forward without them. This is how the SDA’s started. Bates and the Whites were unhappy about how the post disappointment leaders were ignoring their views about the 3rd Angels Message. --So they started their own branch of the Advent Movement, which soon grew into the largest of all the Millerite organizations.

Cadge said: they will not change their views on the IJ, nor Sundays Laws, unclean meats, alcohol, vegetarianism, and legalism, or they would have to dump their infallible prophet and their Jack Blanco bible, etc, etc, etc...! They will be ever in confusion, and have been with their differing factions.

Tom said: You may be right. I have never held out too much hope for the SDA leaders, who are locked up within a corrupt, hierarchical, anti-Gospel system, that is all about propaganda and control. Like the 1st century Jews, all they care about is their own positions of self-serving power.

John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

But guess what? The vast majority of the SDA Community has already REJECTED the IJ and Traditional Adventism. Millions have left and many keep leaving all the time, thus there is a very large, disenfranchised Adventist Community that has no place to go, and nothing to do worthwhile but criticize and lament their sorry situation.

So the paradigm shift from the failed 3rd Angels Message, to the final, Gospel based, 4th Angels Message is taking place in front of our eyes. Adventism is poised to go forward, with or without the SDA’s.

Cadge said: They waited for Jesus to come and preached He could come any day, but He can't come until the time of the ten toes government (Daniel 2) is set in place, the New World Order, which will come together as a world alliance of ten sections of the earth governed by ten leaders of common global law, but it will not hold.

Tom said: The NT teaches that the 2nd Coming is always near. So don’t slam the Adventists for promoting such fundamental eschatology.

Luke 21:31 “So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near.

1Pet. 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev. 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Moreover, don’t flatter yourself that you have discovered genuine 21st century eschatology. NCT is just making things up without sufficient study or hermeneutical discipline.

For example, one of the greatest signs of the 2nd Coming is “peace and safety.” But few pay attention to what Christ teaches about the end of the world. Many are too busy speculating and making things up.

Matt. 24:37 “For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

Cadge said: World uprising, the time of trouble such as never was and never again shall be will ensue and the plagues shall be poured out and the Lord will come in the midst of it and gather the elect from the four corners of the earth and establish His kingdom.

Tom said: While it is good to see that you still believe in some concrete eschatology, the last day events need to be much better understood. While the SDA’s are wrong about Sunday starting the Time of Trouble, what is the trigger?

These are important things that still need to be studied and better understood. It is not enough for anyone to declare the SDA’s wrong. The object is to find truth. How will the world really end?

This is what the 4th Angels Message is all about. It represents the final Advent Message.

Cadge said: I hope this helps Tom.

Tom replied: It has not helped you in any way defend NCT and this rubbish about the Every Day Sabbath. There is not a word you posted that can undo or refute the Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

There is only one Sabbath for the church, and it is the 7th day, NC Sabbath as taught by Jesus in all four Gospels. Why any Christian would have a problem with something that is so clearly and repeatedly taught by Christ? Very strange.

Cadge said: Furthermore Tom, the SDA’s would have to break away from this (Ellen White nonsense: “I saw the state of the different churches since the second angel proclaimed their fall. They have been growing more and more corrupt; yet they bear the name of being Christ’s followers. It is impossible to distinguish them from the world…. {1SG 189.1} …

Tom said: Ellen White is not an apostle or an OC prophet. She has no doctrinal authority. So yes, the SDA’s would have to repent for how they have been promoting Ellen White. But Ellen would not mind whatsoever.

Every denomination must repent and return to the Gospel teaching of Christ, including the SDA’s. Jesus is the primary and most important source for church doctrine.

I agree that the SDA’s need to move beyond the immature and legalistic views of the 19th and 20th century. They can do it if they want. But if not, others will go forward and figure out the final events.

Cadge said: These statements essentially say that the only ones with the Holy Spirit are the Seventh Day Adventists and that to be saved one would have to come into them. [The “funny” part of this is the view of William Johnsson in his book, THE FRAGMENTING OF ADVENTISM, where he stands in contradiction of Ellen White’s statement on the Holy Spirit’s breathing on other denominations: “…let me state how I regard the Seventh Day adventist Church in relation to other faith communions. I do not believe that we alone are God’s people. I do not believe that we are without fault. I do not believe that god is working only through us.

Tom replied: The object is to find truth, not error. The modern Advent Movement can only survive and come back to life if it returns to a serious search for truth.

Stop looking at what the Pioneers got wrong and pay some attention to where they were correct. Adventism contains some profound and relevant truths; it is foolish to pretend otherwise.

Cadge said: Well that’s nice of Johnsson to be so gracious, but the SDA Church still sells the books and pushes the views of Ellen White that are clearly in direct opposition of what Johnsson states. Just more reason of why there is so much confusion in SDAism, and why so many have had to leave.]

Tom said: First off, Bill Johnsson is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He is the one that shut down the very active AToday site, trying his best to kill Adventist Reform in its infancy. This inspired JR to start ATomorrow, and for Adventist Reform to gain traction and become established online for all to see. You know the story.

Site History
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=224

So he is not a gracious man, but an enemy of the Gospel, a dishonest Pharisee who is part of the reason why the SDA’s have crashed and burned for all to see. Just like the Review was the problem in 1888, so too in the 1970’s, and at Glacier View. The Review is a bad actor in all this, along with the White Estate. So please, be careful whom you endorse.

Secondly, everyone needs to stop thinking that Ellen White had any doctrinal authority. While I understand that is how the White Estate brainwashed everyone for generations, this was never true when she was alive. So the entire context of how people view Ellen White is not correct historically or Biblically.

So get over all this nonsense and confusion about Ellen White that comes from the White Estate. The fraud in the White Estate must be confessed and corrected. Otherwise, those like you will continue to make war against a fictional character.

Adventist Reform promotes the Gospel of Christ, not Ellen White. All must go to Christ for their theology, including for their definition of the Sabbath and eschatology.

Cadge said: There are only two Gospels; The one of faith that the overcomers that will sit with Him in His throne have through the Power of the Holy Spirit as told in Romans 8:13, 2Cor 3:18 and Revelation 3:21.  The other is salvation by works…These two factions exist in every church. They are known as the “wheat and the tares”, and will be separated at the harvest, not shaken out before He comes. 

Tom said: First off there were “many Christ’s” in the 1st century, and thus many false views of the Gospel.

2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

1Cor. 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.

1Cor. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

If you look closely at the church in Corinth, they had at least four different views of Jesus and the Gospel. No doubt there were many more invented as well, which is something that the Gnostics became famous for in the 2nd century.

Today there are numerous views of Christ and the Gospel, not just two as you claim. Look at all the different denominations, each with their own special version of Christ. And then there is NCT, which is not a church, but a group of people that have invented a 1970’s view of Jesus, along with “another” Gospel and another view of the Sabbath, which is different from what any other church has ever practiced.

Thus there are thousands of Christ’s and a legion of different and false Gospels. However, the object is to find the genuine Christ, and the real Gospel, including the correct NC Sabbath for the church.

Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Cadge said: The “books” record when we receive or when we reject the direction and correction of God; whether we choose to avail ourselves of the Power of the Holy Spirit, or whether we choose to cleave to the ways of self; independence from “the Way, the Truth and the Life”.

Tom said: Those that embrace NCT are rejecting the Words of Christ about the Gospel and the Sabbath, as well as the law and the priesthood. They are NOT following the Spirit or the Word as they pretend. They are acting full of self and ego, independent from the law of Christ and his Word. Pitiful and sad.

Cadge said: The judgments at the end are the plagues and time of trouble and the separating of the sheep and goats; wheat and tares;

Tom said: Wrong. The separation of the sheep and goats takes place at the 2nd Coming. Not during the plagues.

Cadge said: But Tom, if you think that you have to keep a Seventh Day Sabbath, then you’d better do it because only hearts of willing obedience spurred on by a loving relationship with God will be in the eternal society of beings after the restoration of all things. 

Tom said: Jesus did not teach anyone to “keep the 7th day OC Sabbath.” In fact, he broke that OC view of the Sabbath and taught his followers to also break the law of the 4th Commandment and not be guilty.

So this is not about a “loving relationship” but about understanding and embracing the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which is very different from the OC Sabbath of the Jews or SDA’s, or the Sunday keepers.

Cadge said: I really hope this helps. 

Tom replied: It did not help your cause in the slightest. NCT is utter nonsense and double-talk. It is as bad as the IJ or the secret rapture. The NT does not support this false Sabbath doctrine, or the false Christ and Spirit that is behind it.

Bob said: Tom, Hebrews 9 tells you when the New Covenant started, when Christ's blood was spilt. That was at His death.

Tom said: Those who try and pretend that Jesus did not come and preach a NC Gospel to the Jews, as recorded in the four Gospels, are delusional. This NCT idea that Jesus did not teach a Gospel Sabbath before the cross is so against the facts as to be absurd.

Jesus preached the NC Gospel, including the NC Sabbath, before the cross. This is a well-accepted fact of theology and church history.

Bob said: Again, you must read what Christ says in the Gospels and at the end of the Gospels, His death.

Tom said: Again. You must read the Gospels to discover the NC Sabbath. It is there for all that want to find it.

Bob said: The Gospels do not have the beginning of the NC until Christ dies. You will have to show me in scriptures anything different.

Tom said: Bob, sometimes I think that you may have never read the Gospels. How can you possibly think that the Gospel Story starts with the cross?

The NC starts with the birth of Christ, - with the Angels rejoicing. Then, the Gospel goes public with the ministry of Christ. Then the Cross inaugurates the NC and fulfills the may OC prophecies about the Messiah.

Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;

Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Luke 2:12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a 1manger.”

Luke 2:13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,

Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”

Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Luke 24:46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,

Bob said: If we are to do everything He talks about in the 4 Gospels before His death, we would need to do all the Festivals and animal sacrifices also. That is not what the Bible tells us to do after His death, is it???

Tom said: It is clear that the NCT crowd does not want to embrace or follow Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath, - so they make up one excuse after another to ignore and repudiate his Reformed Sabbath doctrine. Including the excuse that Jesus teaches too many things, thus making it difficult to know which doctrines to embrace.

Such a lame attempt to trivialize and marginalize the Sabbath will not work, nor will your attempt to pretend that Jesus taught the OC. These are absurd positions that show NCT to be worthless drivel that cannot be defended.

The NCT crowd is following a Jesus of their own making, an -Every Day Sabbath / No Sabbath Jesus, who failed to articulate a Sabbath doctrine for the church, thus leaving it up to Paul, we said almost nothing about it.

What a stupid and confused Jesus they follow?

He is an imposter, and so are they. The real Jesus is the author of the 7th day, NC Sabbath, and he has left passage after passage, - in all four Gospels, - to make sure no one could misunderstand his view of the Sabbath.

But yet, look around…no church promotes the correct, NC view of the Sabbath. NONE! Not the SDA’s, who have the right day, or the Sunday keepers that don’t. NCT is not the answer, because their view is also wrong, even absurd.

So what is the answer?

The 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath.

This is the true Sabbath of Christ, which must be proclaimed along with the correct Gospel Story and a warning about the nearness of the Judgment to come, which is the 2nd Coming. (Rev 18)

The SDA’s are the closest to the true Gospel Sabbath. Sabbath Reform is a featured part of the Three Angels Messages and there is no reason to stop now. The Advent Movement needs to move forward and embrace the correct, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, the one that Jesus teaches, and the one that reflects the Priesthood of all Believers.

If ever there was a time for the SDA’s to wake up and take action, it is now. Adventist Reform represents a paradigm change for the Advent Movement. It is where the modern Movement must go, - forward to the 4th Angels Message…

It is time for the Advent Movement repent for its many errors, and go forward, gathering every possible truth from the past, including the correct attitude to find new truth and correct eschatology.

It is time for the church to understand the Gospel Sabbath, and to prepare for the final Tribulation that precedes the 2nd Coming.

It is time for the Advent Movement to come alive…

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bshields · 03-31-12 10:13 am

Was the primary reason Jesus was nailed to the Cross because he healed on Sabbath or because He proclaimed He is God? Tom said because of the Sabbath. Does Tom say about anything just to make a point? My theory is not to put all my eggs in Tom's basket. Is it safe to put any eggs in his basket? I'll stick with scripture something Tom doesn't usually use unless he is using it to condemn those that are not in agreement with his false theories.

Tom wrote: "It is time for the Advent Movement to come alive…"

Getting them to come alive for junk like yours is like pushing a chain. They already have their plate full of junk.

tom_norris · 03-31-12 11:52 am

Bsheilds asked: Was the primary reason Jesus was nailed to the Cross-because he healed on Sabbath or because He proclaimed He is God?

Tom said: The problem with many (former) SDA’s is that they have been so brainwashed about the Sabbath, that they think they understand how to debate this issue. But their many warped assumptions are not based on the facts of the NT. They are not experts as they assume.

Jesus was sent to the cross because he was changing the OC into the NC. Thus he taught a very different Sabbath, as well as a very different view of the Priesthood and the Temple, as well as God and eschatology.

The NC Sabbath of Christ is a paradigm shifting doctrine that was controversial from the start of his ministry. It stunned and “amazed” the Jews every week, even as the Gospel Sabbath infuriated the leaders, who determined that Jesus, and his so called NC teaching, had to be destroyed in order to protect OC Judaism and the law.

Moreover, the SDA view that Jesus was upholding the law of the 4th Commandment, and thus establishing the law is absurd. It was the Pharisees that were trying to uphold and defend the Sabbath Law, not Jesus.

Jesus was doing the opposite. His view of the Sabbath did not uphold the law, but the Gospel. Which is greater than the law. But the Jews repudiated this point, which is why they sent him to the cross.

Bsheilds said: Tom said because of the Sabbath.

Tom said: The NT is clear that Jesus’ Reformed, Gospel Sabbath, which he taught in public, was the specific teaching that led to his death. The fact he claimed God taught him this doctrine, and supported this Gospel teaching, spelled his doom.

Bsheilds said: Does Tom say about anything just to make a point? My theory is not to put all my eggs in Tom's basket. Is it safe to put any eggs in his basket? I'll stick with scripture something Tom doesn't usually use unless he is using it to condemn those that are not in agreement with his false theories.

Tom said: Jesus is the author of the Gospel Sabbath. Not Tom Norris. Those that refuse to learn correct doctrine from Christ will have no excuse in the Day of Judgment.

Moreover, this charge that Tom Norris does “not use” scripture is an obvious falsehood. It is the NCT crowd that refuses to use the scriptures honestly. They are experts at ignoring the many Sabbath teachings of Jesus, pretending that he taught no Sabbath for the church.

Tom wrote: "It is time for the Advent Movement to come alive…"

Bsheilds replied: Getting them to come alive for junk like yours is like pushing a chain. They already have their plate full of junk.

Tom replied: The Advent Movement is not the same as the SDA’s. Adventism was not started by the SDA’s, nor does it look like they will complete the Three Angels Messages. They hate the Gospel and thus have no plans to move forward to the 4th Angels Message and complete the mission of Adventism.

Thus, it is the Adventist people that will go forward to deal with the final Gospel message, leaving behind the many errors and false doctrines that have become so noxious to so many.

Furthermore, for those who are so dismissive of anything Adventist, where is their vision for the church? What do they say is truth? (Besides this nonsense that Jesus fulfilled and then abolished the Sabbath). How is their Gospel defined and what do they say about eschatology?

NCT offers no eschatology, much less a correct view of the Gospel or the Sabbath. So why pretend?

Adventist Reform is the correct path for the Advent Movement and the entire Laodicean church. If there is a better path, show us?

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 03-31-12 8:50 pm

Tom said:
The NC Sabbath of Christ is a paradigm shifting doctrine that was controversial from the start of his ministry. It stunned and “amazed” the Jews every week, even as the Gospel Sabbath infuriated the leaders, who determined that Jesus, and his so called NC teaching, had to be destroyed in order to protect OC Judaism and the law.

Tom, Christ was born under the Law:

Galatians 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Therefore He had to keep the OC perfectly that included the Decalogue. Jesus instructed in the Sermon on the Mount and other times in His life, some of the OC and pointed to some of the NC. More was shown to Paul:

Gal 1:15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

Christ's Law was the New Covenant behavior standards.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Hebrews 10
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Colossians 2: 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

2 Cor3: 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Last edited by bob_2 (03-31-12 8:53 pm)

tom_norris · 04-06-12 10:35 am

Bob said: Tom, Christ was born under the Law:

Tom said: Yes. Jesus was born a Jew, born under the religious law of OC Judaism and under the laws and power of Rome.

Thus, the Law of Moses (and the law and power of Rome) was the historical, cultural, and theological context for the NC Gospel. This is why the OC existed, (and also Rome) - so that the Messiah would have a civilized place to develop the NC and set up the church, which would then spread to all nations.

Thus, the OC is the foundation and source for the NC, which was hidden within Judaism, waiting for the proper moment to become manifest in world history. When Judaism needed reforming the most, along comes Christ and the NC, which is the Gospel. This is reformed OC Judaism.

But the Jews misunderstood this point and refused to admit that their OC religion had failed, much less that there was another level of Judaism to understand and embrace. Thus they repudiated Gospel REFORM and killed their Messiah, even as they did it in the name of God.

The Jews were content to embrace the OC forever, but that was never the point of the OC or God’s plan. The OC existed for the benefit of the NC. It was never supposed to last forever, nor did it represent the best way to understand God or save mankind.

The OC was created by God, so that it could change into the NC. This was the “kind intention” of God, even a mystery, which was hidden within the OC.

Eph. 1:9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention, which He purposed in Him

Eph. 1:10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Eph. 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Eph. 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Eph. 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Without the OC, there could be no forward progress to the NC. The first must come to prepare the way for the latter.

John the Baptist represented the OC, - Jesus the NC. Thus we see John at the start of Jesus ministry realizing that a paradigm shift is taking place. The OC is “decreasing” as Christ shifts the paradigm forward to the NC.

John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease.

John 3:31 “He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

Bob said: Therefore He had to keep the OC perfectly that included the Decalogue.

Tom said: While Jesus worked out a perfect righteousness by obedience to the law and his fathers will, that does not mean that he was subject to the OC law as you think. He was not. And neither was his mother who broke the law by the very way that Jesus was conceived and born.

So forget this false idea that Jesus must play by all the OC rules and regulations, or somehow he would become a sinner. Such a view comes from the minds of legalists, not the NT. Jesus broke the law often, and taught others to do the same. This is why the leaders were so angry with his NC Sabbath and other teachings. It was based on law breaking.

Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”

Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

Mark 7:5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?”

Jesus is above the law, even as he is the Son of God and the Lamb of God. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that Jesus is just like us. He is not. He routinely broke the OC law and was still sinless, even as this is how God views all that are in Christ.

Jesus is greater than the moral law and all the ceremonial laws combined. Which is to say that he is not bound by any of them. The law was made for evil humans, not for the sinless Christ.

1Tim. 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

Don’t try and force Christ into your mold of false doctrine. He does not “have to obey the law perfectly” as you claim. Nor did he do so.

Jesus is greater than law, which is why the NC trumps the OC, and why the Gospel Sabbath reflects this fact. When properly understood, the 7th day Reformed Sabbath of Christ reflects the superiority of the Gospel over law. This is why Jesus taught it. This is why it is still duty and doctrine for the church.

Jesus Sabbath doctrine was a law breaking doctrine, which is why it infuriated the Jewish leaders. And guess what? It will anger those today like the SDA’s that have a legalistic view of the Sabbath, even as it confounds the Sunday keepers and the anti-Sabbatarians.

When the Sabbath of Christ is correctly understood, so too will the Gospel and its relation to the law.

Sabbath Righteousness

Moreover, let me explain another point; the righteousness that is imputed to us for salvation, is a 7th day Sabbath righteousness. Which means those who deny the law or the Sabbath, are also denying Christ’s Righteousness, by which we are saved.

In other words, there is no such thing as any Sunday Sabbath and thus there is no such thing as a Sunday righteousness, much less an Every Day Sabbath as NCT teaches. These are phantom and fictional doctrines.

Christ can only impute to us his OC, 7th day Sabbath keeping Righteousness, even as he teaches us a different NC view of the Sabbath, which subordinates law over Gospel. This is the law of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.

Bob said: Jesus instructed in the Sermon on the Mount and other times in His life, some of the OC and pointed to some of the NC. More was shown to Paul:

Tom said: This idea that Jesus failed to articulate and teach a NC Sabbath for the church is laughable. How could anyone take such a view after reading the Gospels, which are full of Jesus NC Sabbath doctrine?

Moreover, this view that Paul “was shown more than the original apostles” is absurd. Paul was not even an eyewitness to the Passion or Ascension. Such positions are false and without foundation. Which is why Paul could never have written the Gospels. He was not an eyewitness to Jesus ministry.

Jesus is the author of the Gospel Sabbath, not Paul. Those who want to follow him, must understand and embrace his view of the Sabbath, which is anything but legalistic.

Furthermore, Paul supports the Sabbath of Christ. Colossians 2: 16 does not negate, refute, or abolish the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ in any way. Nor does Paul anywhere try to explain or define the NC Sabbath.

The anti-Sabbatarians need to stop misusing this passage as well as a number of others, which they claim supports their views. They are not being honest with the writings of Paul, much less with the Gospels or church history. It’s as if they don’t care about the facts, or what Jesus teaches. Pitiful.

In conclusion, those who want to follow Gospel Truth, must embrace the teachings of Christ about all things, including the NC Sabbath. Those so-called Christians, who refuse, for whatever reason or excuse, are not following the genuine Christ. They have embraced a false Christ, with a worthless Gospel.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 04-06-12 12:34 pm

Tom said:

Jesus is above the law, even as he is the Son of God and the Lamb of God. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that Jesus is just like us. He is not. He routinely broke the OC law and was still sinless, even as this is how God views all that are in Christ.
Jesus is greater than the moral law and all the ceremonial laws combined. Which is to say that he is not bound by any of them. The law was made for evil humans, not for the sinless Christ.

Had Jesus not lived a perfect life under the Law given to Moses, including the Decalogue, He could not be our Savior. Right? The laws that he condemned about the Sabbath were not given by God but polluted doctrine of the Pharisees, if not show one law in the OC that he did not follow? Bible texts only please!!

bob_2 · 04-07-12 12:09 am

Tom said:

So forget this false idea that Jesus must play by all the OC rules and regulations, or somehow he would become a sinner. Such a view comes from the minds of legalists, not the NT. Jesus broke the law often, and taught others to do the same. This is why the leaders were so angry with his NC Sabbath and other teachings. It was based on law breaking

.

Then read this:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

bshields · 04-07-12 10:17 am

F

Tom wrote:

furthermore, for those who are so dismissive of anything Adventist, where is their vision for the church? What do they say is truth? (Besides this nonsense that Jesus fulfilled and then abolished the Sabbath). How is their Gospel defined and what do they say about eschatology?
NCT offers no eschatology, much less a correct view of the Gospel or the Sabbath. So why pretend?
Adventist Reform is the correct path for the Advent Movement and the entire Laodicean church. If there is a better path, show us?

What true NC Christians believe is that Jesus message to the World is LOVE. The Gospel is all about Jesus love. On the other hand all Tom thinks and writes about is his NC Sabbath idea. I have never seen him write about Jesus an His love for mankind. His admonition found in 1Jn 3:23 commands us to love. Tom's writings are all about commanding duty to his pie in the sky NC Sabbath, something Jesus nor the Apostles never talked about.

I am sure Tom wonders why he has been so rejected by both formers and members. It is because he cannot truly defend his theory. Paul, in Gal 3, tells us the law existed until Jesus. Tom's theory is that somehow a do nothing Sabbath command squeaked past the ended law and is not beckoning all to adhere to Its new commands that he is never explicit about and the scripture doesn't admonish.

Tom could be a real force in exposing the doctrines of SDAs, but he clings to ellen and will not allow the scriptures to speak for their selves. He ignores the fact that ellen supported the IJ and sanctuary message to the hilt and was the driving force in promoting it as the answer to the Advent failure. He is quick to call the White Estate trustees deceitful and will never recognize those who call him out for being the same. Every one else is merely a misfit in his eyes. You have only to read his posts to see what I mean, how sad.

Adventists for Tomorrow

Announcement

#376 01-31-12 11:02 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#377 02-01-12 12:32 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#378 02-01-12 2:26 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#379 02-01-12 7:15 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#380 03-07-12 1:20 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#381 03-08-12 1:04 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#382 03-09-12 1:04 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#383 03-12-12 5:00 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#384 03-25-12 10:05 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#385 03-26-12 9:15 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#386 03-26-12 9:48 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#387 03-26-12 11:19 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#388 03-27-12 8:47 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#389 03-27-12 12:02 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#390 03-27-12 7:50 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#391 03-28-12 8:30 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#392 03-28-12 1:38 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#393 03-31-12 9:43 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#394 03-31-12 10:13 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#395 03-31-12 11:52 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#396 03-31-12 8:50 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#397 04-06-12 10:35 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#398 04-06-12 12:34 pm

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#399 04-07-12 12:09 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

#400 04-07-12 10:17 am

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

Board footer