The Reformed Sabbath

l_miller · 11-19-11 5:48 pm

bob2 said: In fact Paul says he is under Christ's Law, not under the Law. I wonder which Law Paul is saying he is not under.
Tom said: Listen to Paul speak about the law. Read this passage over and over until you can clearly understand what he is saying:

1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Do you see how Paul is not under the Law, but yet, not without it either?

2Cor. 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

How fitting that there is a new Sabbath for this “new creature.” The OC Sabbath has “passed away,” replaced by the New and Reformed Gospel Sabbath.

tom_norris · 11-19-11 8:12 pm

Bob, is that all you can say after such long post debunking NCT? And even then, - you misunderstood.

At some point you should face up to the overwhelming evidence that disproves NCT and repent. Then you can learn from the Word instead of trying to manipulate it to support false doctrine.

Bob2 said: Tom and others, neither of these texts, 1John 3:23, 24, suggest the Decalogue. In fact Paul says he is under Christ's Law, not under the Law. I wonder which Law Paul is saying he is not under?

Tom said: I agree. I never said otherwise. This passage is speaking about the teachings of Christ, which Paul also refers to as the “law of Christ.” It is not saying what the SDA’s teach. It is not a reference to the 10C’s.

Jesus represents the Gospel, not the Law. He is greater than the Law, having authority over the Law, including authority over the 4th Commandment. This is why he could change and reform the Sabbath, which he did.

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

This is also why the Jews became enraged. They did not believe Christ had any authority from God to reform the Sabbath, much less with an exemption from the written requirement of the 4th Commandment. They were outraged that he would invent a new, active Way to view the Sabbath. One that is innocent and full of FREEDOM from the guilt and power of the Law.

THIS is the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. It is not at all like the OC Sabbath of the Jews or SDA’s, excepting for the 7th day.

Matt. 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of call the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Matt. 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”

John 7:16 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 7:17 “If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

These NT references to the teachings of Christ include his active and reformed Sabbath, which gives all believers an EXEMPTION from the requirements of the OC Sabbath Law.

Those who claim to follow Christ, must also embrace his Gospel teaching about the active and reformed Sabbath. To do otherwise is to repudiate Christ and ignore his teaching.

2John 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

At this point in time, the entire Laodicean Church, meaning all denominations, has embraced a false doctrine of the Sabbath. They are “not abiding in the teaching of Christ.” Which is why Christ calls the last church blind and naked and very wrong, needing to repent and reform or be lost.

The teachings of Christ, (His commandments) are NOT the same as the teaching of Moses and the 10 C Law. I never suggested otherwise. Jesus view of the Sabbath and the priesthood are very different from what Moses taught. Which is why the Jews killed him for changing their long held, law based, traditions.

No Christian is “under” the Moral law, and this includes the 4th Commandment, which Jesus has turned on its head to make this point. The SDA’s obviously missed this point.

The genuine Gospel Sabbath is an “active” doctrine, (as opposed to a “resting” doctrine), that proves the Christian is NOT under the law. This also explains why the SDA’s missed it. They rejected the Gospel in 1888 and have ever since embraced the OC view of the Sabbath with both hands. So they have no idea there is a NC Sabbath, nor do they want to learn. They are too much like the unbelieving the Jews. Pity.

To this day, the SDA’s are confused and very wrong about the Gospel, which is why they tithe and follow OC food laws, and observe the OC resting Sabbath of the Pharisees instead of the NC active Sabbath of Christ. How sad and pitiful. Unless they repent, they are doomed.

Those that chose to follow Christ will not allow themselves to be placed under the Law of the 4th Commandment or any other point of law. Nor will they be fooled into thinking there is no law or that there is no Gospel Sabbath for the church.

Christians are only saved by the imputation of Christ’s Righteousness, not by law keeping. Those that are destined for Eternal Life will be wise, embracing the teachings of Jesus, which includes his active, NC view of the Sabbath.

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”

Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for the amazing Gospel Sabbath

bob_2 · 11-19-11 8:45 pm

The end of Matt 7 says:

Matt 7:28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

Again, Jesus was fighting the oral law of the leaders of the Jews and all their legalistic rule, like how far someone could walk on the Sabbath, extending that distance if they lay a hanky at the end of the days walk and this hanky would then allow twice as long a walk. Nowhere are those laws given by God/Jesus. The law was to reflect God's character, but the Pharisees had added to rules that were not of heavenly origin. The quotes in your rather lengthy diatribes do not say what you claim they say. Why did Norris' letter not get considered at the G.C.? Because is was not true. They don't believe NCT either. But NCT has the Bible and Spirit directing it, not Tom and Des ONLY!!!

tom_norris · 11-22-11 2:40 pm

Bob2 said: Tom, you can't rewrite the NT like Thomas Jefferson did, you need to stay with the inspired word:

Tom said: We have been discussing how Marcion removed most all the Gospels and claimed they were not accurate or true. Then, free of the Gospels, he uses Paul in order to define church doctrine. This is the same formula that sustains NCT.

I made the observation that NCT has also glossed over the Gospels, pretending that Jesus did not articulate a Sabbath doctrine for the church, - when this is exactly what he did. Then, they too, run to Paul to try and find what they want.

NCT is trying to re-write the Gospel Story by ignoring the NC teaching of Jesus about the Sabbath. Not me. I am pointing to the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels. I am not trying to ignore or remove what is so clear and repeated in the NT.

Thomas Jefferson was not under discussion, but he is also guilty of changing the Bible to make it fit his personal views. Jefferson, like Marcion, removed many passages from the Gospels, including Jesus miraculous birth, divinity, and resurrection, because he did not believe they were true.

He actually cut “verse by verse” from the Gospels and pasted up a new version of the NT. Very much like Marcion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline … erson.html

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/moden … fJesu.html

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/05 … e-beliefs5

This is the great sin of Laodicea, they think they can manipulate and change the Gospel teachings of Jesus to fit their whims. But they have made a huge mistake. This is why Jesus condemns the last church more than any other. They have become blind to the Word and the Gospel, and NCT is a good case in point. So too the confusion of the SDA’s.

Bob2 quoted Galatians 3:19; Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

Tom said: While this text condemns the OC, “schoolmaster” Sabbath, it does not do so for the Gospel Sabbath. That Sabbath is not subject to the rules of the 4th Commandment against work on the 7th day. Thus when Jesus started his ministry, he REMOVED the OC Sabbath law against work, replacing it with the Reformed, Active, Gospel Sabbath that does not condemn or make guilty.

The NC Sabbath was changed by Christ because of the Gospel. He justified this new doctrine by another new doctrine, which is called the “Priesthood of all Believers,” even as he claimed that God told him to promote this new Sabbath teaching for the church.

Furthermore, the NC Sabbath does not define sin, but on the contrary, it helps define the Gospel, showing that it is above the law, and that those who believe in Christ are freed from the guilt and power of law.

While the OC Sabbath featured law, obedience, and forced rest, the NC Sabbath features the Gospel, innocence, and freedom from the law. The very opposite of the OC doctrine.

Bob2 said: I agree with you that Jesus answered the questions put to him about the Sabbath, but never gave a command that it would be in His new Kingdom and pointed out in Col 2:16, 17 that He was the reality of the shadow Sabbath.

Tom said: First, Jesus did far more than “answer some questions about the Sabbath.” He radically changed this “no work” tradition into an active, pro work, Gospel doctrine. He purposefully started the debate that raised all these questions.

Second, Jesus teaches over and over that we are to follow his teachings, and this includes his reformed view of the Sabbath that he teaches in all four Gospels.

Third, Jesus is not speaking in Col 2: 16 or 17, nor did he ever claim to be a “shadow” of the Sabbath or its fulfillment.

This fulfillment argument was used against Marcion in the 2nd century, to protect the Sabbath because he was claiming that it was abolished in the NT. How ironic that today, NCT is using the same argument to prove that Marcion was correct?

Regardless how the “fulfillment” argument is used, it was wrong then and it still is wrong today. The NT does NOT teach that Jesus is the “fulfillment” of the Sabbath.

NCT is being very dishonest about the teachings of Christ in the Gospels. Rather than take Jesus at his word, embracing what he clearly and repeatedly teaches about the Reformed Sabbath, this crowd of double-talkers insists that Paul has the answers they want, even as Jesus failed to make his will clear on this topic.

Such a view is absurd and easily defeated by a simple reading of the Gospels.

The NCT crowd is obsessed with their false and slick view of the Sabbath. They have launched a campaign of misinformation and theological double-talk, as if myths were facts and doctrine can be manipulated like political opinion, that is, whoever gets the most votes wins. No, no, no.

True doctrine is not to be confused with our opinions or traditions. Popularity is not part of any hermeneutic. Only the written words of Christ about the Sabbath, or anything else, is the primary basis to determine doctrine for the church.

Matt. 12:30 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Those that ignore the Gospel Sabbath, ignoring the words of Christ, will not receive Eternal Life. Period. They have been deceived into following a false Christ. They are “against” Christ; pretenders, wolves in sheep’s clothing, “scattering” the flock.

Bob2 said: Until Christ died He had to keep the Sabbath the way His father wished him to keep it, the true intent of the Old Covenant Sabbath, Christ didn't Reform the Sabbath but clarified what the OC law says about the Sabbath.

Tom said: When Christ started his ministry, he unveiled and taught his amazing and controversial NC, active Sabbath. (See Mark 1.)

When the Jews protested, Jesus further revealed that this new view of the Sabbath came directly from God. (See John) And that God fully supported this new doctrine. But of course the Jews disagreed and disbelieved, which is why they sent Christ to the cross--for OC Sabbath breaking, and for claiming that God gave him permission to change the law.

The OC Sabbath does not allow work.

The NC Sabbath allows all manner of work.

So this idea that Jesus was “clarifying” how the OC Sabbath was to be observed is absurd and wrong. The OC and NC Sabbath are OPPOSITES. While they both are memorials to the Creation Story in Genesis, one was temporary, legalistic, and confining, while the latter was permanent, joyful, and full of Freedom.

Jesus changed the Sabbath by his own authority, and that of God the Father. The same goes for the changed Priesthood, which became the basis for the reformed Gospel Sabbath. Fail to understand these points and you will also fail to understand the Gospel correctly.

Bob2 quoted more double-talk about NCT. Let’s see what this is all about?

NCT says; If, however, the Law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do.

Adventist Reform says: The Law of Moses does not have the same meaning for Jews, Gentiles, or Christians today. It does not have the same relationship.

Moreover, this idea that Jesus “fulfilled” the law is confused. Jesus “fulfilled” the prophecies about the cross, as well as about the Gospel. But there was never any prophecy that he would fulfill the Sabbath.

Acts 3:18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

Acts 13:33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.’

NCT says: On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today.

AR says: The assumption that Jesus’ “goal” was to fulfill the law and remove the Sabbath from the church is absurd. Jesus never taught such theology, nor did he “fulfill” all things as you claim.

In fact, the law is “fulfilled in us” when we embrace the teachings of Jesus and love one another.

Rom. 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom. 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

Gal. 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

If the Moral law has been abolished, how can it be fulfilled by love? How can something that does not exist, be fulfilled by people after the fact? The law does exist, it has not been fulfilled by Christ and then abolished, which is why it can still be fulfilled today!

NCT says: Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ—and thus remains as a binding legal system for today—then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling system.

AR said: Do not confuse the law-based system of Judaism with the Moral law. They are two very different paradigms. The former was fulfilled and abolished, but not the Moral law, which is not a "system" like OC Judaism. One cannot "fulfill" the Moral law in the sense that it can be obeyed, used up, and no longer functional. Because Jesus did not murder or commit adultery, does it now mean that he has fulfilled these laws and they are abolished and removed? Hardly.

Moreover, while Christ fulfilled the Messianic prophecies, there is no basis to think that Jesus was on a mission to fulfill the Moral law and abolish the Sabbath or abolish the law against murder or adultery. Rather it is more correct to say that he fulfilled all righteousness.

Matt. 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”

How does Christ fulfill the law of the OC Sabbath when he clearly breaks it in public for all to see? Fulfilling, breaking, and changing are not the same concept. However, he did abolish the OC Priesthood and changed it into an NC version, which is also not the same as “fulfilling” and removing it.

Jesus did not come to earth to “fulfill” the OC laws of Moses. In fact, this is easily proved by the fact he broke so many of the laws and traditions of Moses, which infuriated the Jews and led directly to his death. He came to start the NC and the Church.

So it is time to stop pretending that Christ fulfilled the Law and thus abolished the Sabbath. This is not what the NT teaches. It is an absurd theory.

NCT says: Jesus plainly said that not one “jot or tittle” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled that has never been embraced by the church at any time.

AR says: Ha! Guess what? Only after the 2nd Coming will all be fulfilled. Only when sin and the devil are exterminated, and the saints are safe in the New Jerusalem can anyone say, “all is fulfilled.”

Mark 13:2 And Jesus said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left upon another which will not be torn down.”

Mark 13:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately,

Mark 13:4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?”

Mark 13:8 “For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

Rev. 17:17 “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

Thus NT eschatology shows that all is NOT fulfilled. There is still more fulfillment to take place.

NCT says: Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose. Jesus fulfilled the law.

AR: Even at this late date in history, not all is fulfilled. So why pretend? While OC Judaism was no loner necessary after the cross, and Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system and made it moot, this is different than saying he fulfilled the Moral Law.

Jesus did not fulfill the law of the Sabbath, or any of the rest of the 10 commandments. How does one even do that? How does anyone “fulfill” the law so as to use it up and extinguish it? Jesus did not commit murder or adultery; does this mean that these laws have been fulfilled by Christ and abolished? Hardly. Such thinking is absurd and irrational.

Obedience to the law is not the same as fulfilling it.

Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Acts 3:18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

The Bible nowhere teaches that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, much less abolished it. This is the great lie of NCT. Marcion said the same thing, but for a different reason. Here is where the double-talk of NCT must be confronted with the Word and repudiated.

While Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies as they relate to the cross, and he would also fulfill, in the future, the Conquering Messiah prophecies when he comes back to Judge the earth. Which means that not all is yet fulfilled, and there was never any prophecy about Christ “fulfilling” the Sabbath.

Luke 22:37 “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”

Matt. 26:56 “But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets.” Then all the disciples left Him and fled.

John 15:25 “But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’

John 18:32 to fulfill the word of Jesus which He spoke, signifying by what kind of death He was about to die.

John 19:24 So they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be”; this was to fulfill the Scripture: “THEY DIVIDED MY OUTER GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST LOTS.”

John 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, *said, “I am thirsty.”

John 19:36 For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.”

Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Not only is the cross event the featured fulfillment of the Gospel, so too eschatology, which has not yet been fulfilled.

Luke 22:16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

Thus, not all has been fulfilled, even as the Sabbath was never a doctrine that can be fulfilled. Such points are fatal for NCT.

NCT says: Jesus fulfilled all of the law.

AR: This is not true, nor does it make any sense. While Jesus “fulfilled all righteousness,” this is not the same as saying he obeyed the law and then removed it.

Matt. 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”

NCT is trying to change the Gospel Story because they hate the doctrine of the Sabbath. They seem ashamed to admit that there is a Sabbath for the Church.

While they are correct to realize that every church is wrong about the Sabbath, they have failed to find the truth of the matter. And they never will, so long as they refuse to come to Christ and learn from his Words.

Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Bob2 said: We cannot say that Jesus fulfilled the sacrificial system, but did not fulfill the other aspects of the law. Jesus either fulfilled all of the law, or none of it. What Jesus' death means for the sacrificial system, it also means for the other aspects of the law.

http://www.gotquestions.org/abolish-fulfill-law.html

Tom said: Jesus was the Lamb of God and thus his death on the cross fulfilled and ended the sacrificial system. But that does not mean he has removed the Moral law, and that Christians are now lawless. Each of the 10 commandments are restated by Christ, including and especially the Sabbath, which he dramatically changes for the church.

Bob2 said: Again, Jesus was fighting the oral law of the leaders of the Jews and all their legalistic rule, like how far someone could walk on the Sabbath, extending that distance if they lay a hanky at the end of the days walk and this hanky would then allow twice as long a walk. Nowhere are those laws given by God/Jesus.

Tom said: Jesus was abolishing the OC and replacing it with the NC. He was dramatically changing the Priesthood and subordinating the law to the Gospel, which is based on faith in his righteousness imputed to sinners for salvation. The Reformed Sabbath reflected and advertised this new Jewish theology called the Gospel.

Christ was not, not, not, trying to improve the OC Sabbath of Moses. Rather, he was doing away with the passive, resting, non-working, schoolmaster, Sabbath. Replacing it with a doctrine of the Sabbath that fit with his amazing NC Gospel paradigm about God.

Bob2 said: The quotes in your rather lengthy diatribes do not say what you claim they say.

Tom said: You have failed to rebut any points posted. Besides, such a blanket denial is worthless. If you have any specific texts, point them out so we can all see. The last time you made that claim, you were clearly wrong.

Bob2 said: Why did Norris' letter not get considered at the G.C.? Because it was not true. They don't believe NCT either. But NCT has the Bible and Spirit directing it, not Tom and Des ONLY!!!

Tom said: First off, neither the Spirit nor Christ supports NCT. And neither does God the Father. In fact, we know this because Christ claims that his Reformed 7th day Sabbath came directly from God.

So your assertion about NCT is not only wrong, it is blasphemy. All that have the Spirit will understand that NCT is false doctrine. Jesus does not teach this doctrine. The SDA’s should be praised for not embracing this anti-Gospel heresy, even though many that have left have obviously done so.

Matt. 12:30 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Matt. 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Matt. 12:32 “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Second, the modern SDA’s are self-destructing because they repudiated the Gospel at Glacier View. Had they paid attention to Dr. Ford, being honest with the evidence, they would have soon discovered the amazing 7th day Gospel Sabbath that we are now discussing.

Then they could have shifted from an OC legalistic, paradigm to a NC version, with an amazing Sabbath doctrine that would lead to further Gospel truth.

Third: Why have the SDA’s repudiated Adventist Reform? Answer: Because they are just like the Jews.

Why did the religious leaders in the 1st century refuse the Gospel? Why did they repudiate the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, defend tithing and pretending that their view of the Temple and eschatology would endure forever?

OC Judaism was a Sabbath keeping, hierarchical based, male dominated system, all based on law, and so too the SDA’s. Just the Jews claimed they had no error,- so too the SDA’s. They refuse to repent and embrace Gospel Reform just like the Jews.

Thus the SDA’s are no different than the Jews. Just as they did not want to repent and reform their tithe based religious hierarchy, with all its perks, control, and bureaucracy, so too the SDA’s. THIS is why they leaders ignore Adventist Reform, they know it will take their “place” away and expose them as incompetent and blind leaders that need to repent.

John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

The religious leaders could not deny the overwhelming popularity of Jesus’ new views about the Sabbath, Priesthood, and God. They realized that unless force was used against the Gospel, all of Israel would embrace Christ, and their positions of authority and wealth would be lost.

Sending Jesus to the cross was really a decision based upon personal power, money, and greed. Those Jews in control sold out the Jewish Nation in order to keep their own place in society. A handful of men decided to kill their Messiah,- so they could keep their jobs. Within two generations their Nation and Temple would be exterminated by Rome, a direct result of their hostility to the Gospel.

The General Conference of SDA’s are doing the same thing as the reckless, tradition loving Jews. Rather than repent, accepting the authority and teaching of Jesus, and reforming their doctrines, including the Sabbath and their tithe-based system to fit his teaching, they deny they have any error. Even as they pretend that they are following God and doing his will.

The SDA’s have embraced the same delusion as the Jews, including their same OC view of the Sabbath. Thus, they are in great danger, just like the Jews.

It is time for those serious about the Gospel to pay attention to the teachings of Jesus. Including his doctrine of the Sabbath.

If anyone today is ashamed of Jesus Reformed view of the Sabbath, they will not be granted Eternal Life. Nor will they understand the Gospel correctly and thus they are doomed, even thought they think they are Christians.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ

bob_2 · 11-23-11 12:46 am

In one of Norris' answers in his AllExpert column, he sets up a straw man to break it down with his pet theory, a Reformed Sabbath.

What is NCT? Is it correct? Did Christ fulfill the Sabbath and remove it as an obligation of the Church?

Tom, you can not name one NCT scholar that abrogates the Four Gospels. Your accusation, now your source, eh? The Four Gospels do believe that Jesus was born and died, the full range of the Gospls. What have you been smokin' lately Tom. "Do not accuse falsely" is one of the 10 also, correct??? If so, quit doing it. You appear to do what I have claimed all along in my SDA teaching, an avoidance of Paul and his teachings. The Gospel is Jesus died for our sins, not plus anything, including your Reformed Sabbath. Because God mentions Sabbath under the OC does not mean it is still binding anymore than the Temple animal sacrifices which He and His Family brought at the various festivals from which we as Christians are free. Especially when he is the very fulfillment in His flesh, Tom.

Last edited by bob_2 (11-23-11 12:53 am)

bob_2 · 11-23-11 12:57 am

Tom says this in his AllExpert article:

Christ did not fulfill the Sabbath; much less abolish this weekly day of congregational fellowship for the New Israel, the church. Jesus claim to be Lord of the Sabbath, as well as his controversial teaching about how to act on this reformed Gospel day, precludes such an interpretation

.

Then too, Tom, we should as the WCG did before they saw the light, worship on all the Festivals of the Jews that Jesus did, because He did it and it must be a sacred act as you are trying to exegete. It is that silly!!!!

Last edited by bob_2 (11-23-11 12:59 am)

bob_2 · 11-23-11 9:08 pm

First let me say, that I usually go looking for words to make my point, other's words, why recreate the wheel. Tom if you are going to condemn me for that and claim no SDA Theologian or Reformed Theologian is meaned, just some no-name, someone not named Norris or Ford, you will never see the Kingdom. Here is my contribution through another, sorry, if you don't like it give a better source than your own word on AllExperts.

Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

So the Gospel was where Jesus started, not the OT/OC. If you don't believe the OC points with example and shadows, you don't discern what the whole Bible is saying.

Read this and see if your narrow view that can only be found in your own quotes of AllExpert, that you may miss the answer to salvation. Read this:

http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_ … 128-lk-65/

l_miller · 11-24-11 3:03 am

Thank you again, Tom.

I have been reading more of your posts and I must say that your analyses and knowledge are incredible and are very helpful to me as I go through scripture looking for answers. (Mike) # 237

Me too, tom. You are very very helpful to me, as I study and read more of Adventist Reform.

I would like quote what you said that help me understand between OC and NC Sabbath.

Tom said: The doctrine of the Sabbath is a good test doctrine to see if one understands the Gospel correctly. Let all “examine” their position on the Sabbath and compare it to what Jesus teaches. Is this the same Christ that is “in you”? If not, you have FAILED the test.

2Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless indeed you fail the test?

Those who embrace the wrong view of the Sabbath have failed the test. They are following a false Christ and a false Spirit. The Christ “in them” is a fraud.

1John 3:23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

1John 3:24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

NCT is false doctrine promoted by a false spirit. Those who defend and promote it are making a fatal mistake. Sad.

Mark 4:9 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath.

l_miller · 11-24-11 3:37 am

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

bob_2 · 11-25-11 1:08 am

I, Miller quoted Tom Norris that NCT is false doctrine, while not ever taking the time to show the basis for his Reformed Sabbath. Goggle it and you find his own words, never scripture or other scholars. This mainly because he has taken the term "Reformed" and confused in the with the Reformation of Luther and Calvin. The Sabbath that Jesus spoke of, was against he Oral Religion that the leaders spouted off about thinking they were helping the Jews understand the Sabbath as it transformed from desert worship to synagogue worship. There are principles within the OC but the Pharisees didn't stick with them but Tom thinks the Sabbath needed to be Reformed from the Decalogue to Christ's Death. Not too Biblical to me. All Christ was doing was clarifying the principles of the Sabbath God gave when he put the 4th Commandment in the Decalogue. What He did do is fulfill the Law the law as promised, had He not, He would have failed as our Savior. His main perpose as seen by Miller and Norris would make you think the Sabbath trumps the Gospel.

tom_norris · 11-25-11 11:08 am

Bob2 said: In one of Norris' answers in his All Expert column, he sets up a straw man to break it down with his pet theory, a Reformed Sabbath.

Bob2 then quoted Norris who said: What is NCT? Is it correct? Did Christ fulfill the Sabbath and remove it as an obligation of the Church?

See also:

http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/recov … y/stay.htm

http://www.cogwriter.com/news/wcg-news/ … iefs-book/

In conclusion, it is time for the Sabbath doctrine to be correctly understood by the church, meaning all individuals in every denomination. As knowledge of the Gospel is increased, many in all denominations have correctly questioned the status quo of their traditional doctrines. NCT has been a positive force in this attempt to move the church forward to a better understanding of the Gospel and the Sabbath.

Unfortunately, they too have become bogged down with their own myopic errors and false assumptions. They seem too proud to admit their own flaws and thus they are prevented from searching for more truth by their own egos. They live to defend their false doctrine, which they think has no error.

However, NCT has misunderstood a number of points, including the fact that Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches a Reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath for the church in all four Gospels. How could they miss such a large and obvious point? How could the SDA’s, the self-proclaimed Sabbath experts?

How can anyone today fail to see that Jesus NC Sabbath doctrine is very different from the OC version, as well as from what every church has been teaching all these years? Doesn’t anyone read the Gospels any more? Has that gone out of fashion?

One would have to be blind to miss what Christ teaches about the active 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church. But alas, that is exactly the problem with the church. They are in the dark, blind to the teachings of Christ. They cannot see or understand the Gospel clearly, even though they think otherwise.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Let all repent of their false traditions and go to Christ in the Gospels. Then they can learn the NC Sabbath directly from the greatest teacher the world has ever known.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 13:13 “You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

John 18:37 Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 11-25-11 8:36 pm

Tom, is the Gospel going to have everything it had in the OC. If it has a Sabbath you say it has to have a Sabbath also. So nothing was ever fullfilled. Why are we not sacrificing animals or religiously circumcising, or women wearing hats in church, Or making our wife camp in the backyard that time of the month. After all God doesn't change, right Tom???

Last edited by bob_2 (11-25-11 8:37 pm)

bob_2 · 11-27-11 12:13 am

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

What does the Law of Moses include Tom????or I. Miller??

l_miller · 11-27-11 1:59 am

Alas!and did my Savior bleed
And did my Sovereign die?
Would He devote that sacred head
For sinners such as I?
Refrain
At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light,
And the burden of my heart rolled away,
It was there by faith I received my sight,
And now I am happy all the day!

l_miller · 11-27-11 2:36 am

Verse 46 He told them this is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day. Jesus was speaking about his death on the cross. I have read bob2 and tom's post on #16 and it seem to be going over and over. But it helps to sink it in my head.

bob2: my response would be:

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Tom said: Wrong answer. We have already shown that Jesus was speaking about the CROSS-, not about fulfilling the Sabbath. Did you forget? And why did you not quote the proper context? Just look at the next few verses, they explain what he is talking about, and it is not the Sabbath.

Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Luke 24:46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,

Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Luke 24:48 “You are witnesses of these things.

Tom said: This idea about what might have happened, is not only irrelevant, it is not part of the Gospel Story. We must stick to the recorded version of the Gospel and not become sidetracked with myth, fiction, or speculation.

Last edited by l_miller (11-27-11 2:40 am)

bob_2 · 11-27-11 7:41 am

I. Miller, read and give me your take on this passage of scripture, don't speak for Tom or any other person, but yourself:

Galatians 4
1 What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces[a] of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[c] Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.
Paul’s Concern for the Galatians
8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces[d]? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
12 I plead with you, brothers and sisters, become like me, for I became like you. You did me no wrong. 13 As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, 14 and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15 Where, then, is your blessing of me now? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
17 Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them. 18 It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always, not just when I am with you. 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20 how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!
Hagar and Sarah
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[e]
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

bob_2 · 11-27-11 8:51 am

What does this scripture mean to you:

John 6: 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Does this not make Jesus the One that fulfills the Law???

l_miller · 11-28-11 2:10 am

I was looking what New Covenant Theology has to say about Galatian four verse 1 through 28. lucky, I happen to by accident find this link of Gal 4:1-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=NIV Can you throw us some light what interpretation NCT has to say?

tom_norris · 11-30-11 12:45 pm

Bob, you are protesting way too much. Relax; no need to fight truth so hard. Rather, you should be thankful for an increased and better understanding of the Gospel and the Sabbath.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

We are not to follow anyone but Christ. He is the primary source for all Gospel doctrine. No one is to “follow” what their denomination teaches, or what their parents hand down to them by way of family traditions, or any theologian.

No, no, no. We are to have no loyalties to anyone but Christ and his Gospel teaching. No one else. Not even Paul. All must agree on this point, even as there is to be no division in the church whatsoever. Christ is the primary source for all Church doctrine, including the Sabbath.

1Cor. 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1Cor. 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.

1Cor. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

It’s a great mistake for any denomination today to claim they have 100% truth, and that their doctrines are without error. This goes for the SDA’s as well as for those that support this new theory called NCT. It goes for everyone, in any denomination.

NCT is not ready for prime time. It is full of error and contains many false assumptions, even though it was correct to conclude that every church today has a false, unbiblical view of the Sabbath. So they get high marks for trying to address and fix a serious and universal problem in the church. One that highlights how wrong all are about the Gospel.

However, their proposed solution does not solve the problem. They failed to find the genuine Gospel Sabbath of Christ, and now they are on a campaign to promote their incorrect theory as if it were faultless. Many have been caught up in this drive to promote and defend error.

I suggest that you not view this discussion in a competitive manner, but rather as a serious search for more truth. You did not invent NCT, so why dig in your heels and defend some stranger’s new theology from the 1970’s? Follow Christ, not anyone else. Seek Gospel truth; don’t waste time defending false doctrine.

Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Luke 11:10 “For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

Bob2 asked: Tom, is the Gospel going to have everything it had in the OC.

Tom said: The OC and the NC are both Jewish. They are different sides of the same Semitic coin.

So yes, many things in the OC will also remain in the NC. Starting with God, and the teaching of the Torah about the Creation Story and the beginning of Judaism through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as the long history of the Jews, including the giving of the law to Moses, etc. All this is part of the Gospel Story.

John 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Most people fail to understand that the church represents NC Judaism. That is what Christianity is; reformed, NC Judaism. It is not a Gentile paradigm, nor a stand-alone religion.

Rom. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

Rom. 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

Rom. 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

Rom. 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

Rom. 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Judaism, both the OC and the NC version, is of God. There could be no NC without the OC, nor can there be any eschatology. The Gospel is a fully Jewish paradigm, which explains why the OT is part of the Christian Bible. Marcion objected to this view and fought against it, but he was wrong.

The OC is the context and background for the NC. It is full of truth and instruction, even though it has been replaced with a superior and clearer view about God, through Christ.

Bob2 said: If it has a Sabbath you say it has to have a Sabbath also.

Tom said: This is not about what “I say,” but what Jesus teaches. Christ could have easily taught that the Sabbath was fulfilled, abolished, and removed. He could have said that he was the new Sabbath rest and therefore, because he gives us spiritual rest 7 days a week, there is no reason for the church to meet on the 7th day. But he never said any such thing.

Rather, he claimed authority over the law and the Sabbath and reformed this public doctrine into a faith-based teaching that fit perfectly with the Priesthood of all believers. He even claimed that God instructed him to make this dramatic Gospel change to the Sabbath.

So who today is going to stand up and call Christ a liar?

Apparently most everyone, because no church or denomination today embraces the genuine, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Obviously not the Sunday keepers or the Judaizing SDA’s who do have the right day, but the wrong doctrine. Thus all are condemned, fulfilling the Pre Advent Judgment of the Laodicean Church, which is the Laodicean Message.

No wonder the last church is the worst church. It does not know the genuine Christ or his Gospel; much less his amazing reformed Sabbath that is featured in all four Gospels.

Those Laodiceans today that have the Spirit, and repent, as directed by Christ, will embrace Christ’s view of the Gospel Sabbath and only his view. Why? Because there is no other view taught by Christ or his apostles. There is no other option given to the church.

Bob2 said: So nothing was ever fulfilled?

Tom said: The NT teaches that many OT prophecies were fulfilled about Christ. But at no point was there a time when the Messiah was supposed to fulfill the Sabbath. Which explains why Jesus NEVER teaches that he fulfilled the Sabbath, much less abolished it.

Both Jesus and the early church clearly taught that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies about the suffering Messiah. For example, they both viewed the betrayal of Judas as part of the fulfillment of the Passion predictions.

Acts 3:18 “But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

John 13:18 “I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’

John 17:12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Acts 1:16 “Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

There were many things written about the Christ that were fulfilled by Jesus, but at no time was the Messiah supposed to fulfill the Sabbath. There were no such prophecies in the OT. NONE!

Luke 22:37 “For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”

Thus NCT is based on a false premise. The very point they claim is truth, has no basis in the Bible. Jesus was never meant to “fulfill” the Sabbath. There were no such OT prophecies, much less any NC fulfillment. Such a view today is fiction, myth, and false doctrine.

Bob2 said: Why are we not sacrificing animals or religiously circumcising, or women wearing hats in church, Or making our wife camp in the backyard that time of the month.

Tom said: The Temple system, with it’s thousands of bloody sacrifices, and endless rules and health regulations, were temporary Jewish symbols of both law and Gospel. Many were fulfilled in Christ, but not all, as some relate to the end of time and thus are still future.

Jesus is the Lamb of God, even as he is our High Priest. The Temple is now the church, of which he is the cornerstone. And the Israel of God is no longer an earthly nation; rather, it is the church, -without borders or armies, marching as followers of Christ to the New Jerusalem.

Many things that the church correctly embraces, like Baptism, comes directly from the (purification) practices of OC Judaism, even as the Eucharist is only the updated version of the Passover Supper by Christ.

Of course the weekly meeting that the church has followed all these years, (mostly on Sunday), is a direct reflection of the Jewish Sabbath and their synagogue system, which Jesus supported. And on and on, whether it is prayer or singing, or praising the Jewish God, it first had its basis in OC Judaism.

This change in the Two Covenants was planned by God, including the dramatic change in the Sabbath doctrine. It was not a mistake or a back up plan. The NC would not exist were it not for the OC. We should all be thankful to be born in the more civilized and faith based NC era.

Gal. 3:21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Bob2 said: After all God doesn't change, right Tom???

Tom said: God is a master of change. He is the one that creates life where none previously existed, and thus he obviously delights in changing things from dark to light.

Gen. 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Gen. 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Gen. 1:4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.

2Cor. 4:6 For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

God also invented the Old Covenant, so that it could be changed one day into the much better New Covenant. So God is all about change.

In fact, God is a master of mystery and change. He took everyone by surprise, including the devil, when he rolled out the Gospel for all to see.

John 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”

Up until the first century, the gods were closely tied to various cities and nations, who fought against others in the name of their gods. But then there was a great change. The Jewish God of Israel would now cease to be the National God of the Jews. Rather, this God would create a new Nation of Israel that had no borders or armies. One that would be loyal to King Jesus, the leader of this new Israel, which is the Church.

Gal. 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Col. 1:25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

Col. 1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

1Pet. 1:10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,

1Pet. 1:11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

1Pet. 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven — things into which angels long to look.

Eph. 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph. 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

Eph. 2:15 1by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Eph. 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Eph. 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Eph. 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

No one saw this stunning change from an OC National religion based on Law to a NC version of Faith, which established the church as a new spiritual Nation, without boarders or armies, where Christ was both Lord and King.

Thus the Church represents a great change for mankind, both Jew and Gentile. It was always part of God’s master plan. Thus God is the mastermind of this great change from the OC to the NC.

The doctrine of the Reformed Sabbath highlights and anchors this amazing change. Misunderstand the Two Covenants, and the Sabbath will also be misunderstood. This is because ones view of the Sabbath is a reflection of their Gospel knowledge, and at this point, the Laodicean Church has failed.

Eph. 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

Eph. 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Eph. 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Eph. 3:11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

More Change

At the end of the age, at the 2nd Coming, there will be more mystery and change. The resurrection of the dead will be the greatest day of change that the church has ever experienced. At that time, all believers will be CHANGED from mortality to immortality and given Eternal Life. All thanks to the change from the OC to the NC.

1Cor. 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

1Cor. 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Those who refuse to repent and change their OC ways, will not be “changed” into immortality. Nor will any that refuse to embrace the genuine Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

If the change from the non-working, “schoolmaster” Sabbath to the active, NC version is rejected, so too the change into Eternal Life.

Those who seek Eternal Life must embrace the Gospel on Christ’s terms. This means that the Words and teachings of Christ must be understood, believed, and taken to heart, by faith and the Spirit. This includes his amazing teaching about the NC Sabbath. Those, like the Pharisees, that rejected this active, 7th day doctrine of Christ will be shut out of the Kingdom of God, doomed by their unbelief.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris, for the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ

bob_2 · 12-01-11 10:34 pm

Tom, I could never protest longer than you . Just compare the lines by linear inches or feet and you protest more than I ever could.

How you belittle God/Jesus' servant Paul. You seem to trash him while God/Jesus made him his missionary to all nations and showed Him more than Paul had seen with his own eyes. For you it sounds like the Bible is made of the OT, Gospels........then Revelation. Look again, brother Norris.

Acts 26: 9-23. Are you calling Paul a liar????

Last edited by bob_2 (12-01-11 10:41 pm)

tom_norris · 12-07-11 11:10 am

Bob, as usual, you are not addressing the real issues that prove NCT false, nor are you using the proper NT terms. A serious Gospel discussion requires correct context, language, and terminology in order to edify.

I am not so much “protesting,” as teaching the genuine Gospel to those that are interested. You, on the other hand, have embraced a false Christ, and thus you are fighting against the Gospel and repudiating the teachings of Christ 24/7. You are protesting against clear, written, NC truth.

So the term “protest” does not really fit with our discussion. Perhaps we need some NT perspective about this idea of Gospel “protesting.” There actually is such a NC doctrine.

Gospel Protesting

As Jesus’ ministry became more popular, organized, and closer to Jerusalem, he organized, trained, and sent out a rather large number (35) of advance teams to prepare the way for his public appearances. These first missionaries were meant to make sure there was a good turnout to meet this New Covenant Healer and Jewish Celebrity in the many towns and villages on the way to Jerusalem. These Gospel agents were to prepare the way for Christ, which featured Jesus’ reformed and very controversial doctrine of the Sabbath, which amazed the people and enraged the religious establishment every Sabbath.

Luke 10:1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

Luke 10:2 And He was saying to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.

Luke 10:3 “Go; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.

Part of Christ’s marketing instruction to these very first, lamblike missionaries was this: how to act when the Gospel is rejected. Christ taught that they should publicly “protest” before moving on to the next town.

As part of this Gospel Protest, Jesus instructed his laborers to go out into the streets and denounce those who refused the Gospel. They were to repudiate the very dust of that town, warning these residents that they would now share a worse fate than Sodom in the Judgment.

Luke 10:10 “But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say,

Luke 10:11 ‘Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’

Luke 10:12 “I say to you, it will be more tolerable in that day for Sodom than for that city.

So this Gospel Protest was not long, but it was public. Because all should be warned that rejecting the Gospel is fatal. Of course the Gospel teachings of Christ include his active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath. And many Jews did in fact reject Christ’s new view of the Sabbath; this is why the leaders killed him. Because they would not believe his reformed view of the law, Sabbath, or the Priesthood.

Jesus invented this idea of Gospel Protest. It is not what you have been doing, which is following a false Christ with a false view of the Sabbath.

The NT also shows that Paul understood and followed Christ’s teaching about the Gospel “protest.”

Acts 13:49 And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region.

Acts 13:50 But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.

Acts 13:51 But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.

Acts 13:52 And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

THIS is how Gospel Protest is to be understood and defined.

I am on the record as protesting your false view of the Gospel and the Sabbath, and warning you of the consequences. You are on the record as a great supporter of NCT, thus refusing to “receive” the genuine Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

If you were a village, I would walk your streets and cry out in protest, wiping my feet for dramatic effect, condemning you to hell like Sodom. But you are not a village, and we are on the Internet.

So I will continue to promote and defend the genuine Gospel, as well as the Sabbath of Christ, while you continue to follow a false Christ and a worthless gospel, with a confused Sabbath doctrine. So be it.

But understand that your many attempts to defend NCT; by ignoring the Gospels and misusing Paul, has failed. This should be obvious to all by now. But perhaps not, -because the Gospel is very difficult to comprehend. This fact often comes as a surprise to many, but it is very true.

Only a small minority of people, less than 25%, are able to read the Gospels, repent, and receive the Spirit. While salvation is open to all, only a few take the time or effort to grasp the Gospel correctly, and thus be saved. This is the teaching of Christ.

The Gospel is difficult:

While many teach that the Gospel is an easy concept to understand, accept, and believe, this is not true. Christ does not agree with anyone who thinks the Gospel is easily grasped and believed. In fact, he teaches the opposite, claiming that the Gospel is hard to find and comprehend, and that it is hidden from the religious leaders and the wealthy, those who naturally take control.

Luke 10:21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

Luke 18:24 And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!

Luke 19:41 When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,

Luke 19:42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.

The very fact that the Jews failed to embrace Christ and understand his Gospel is all the proof, and warning, that anyone needs to prove how difficult it is for people to understand and be saved. If anyone should have understood and welcomed the Gospel, it was the Jews. But they killed their Messiah and spurned the Gospel.

John 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”

The Gospel is counter-intuitive and very hard to comprehend. “Few” will understand the teachings of Christ even as “many” will embrace a false Christ and worthless Gospel.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Luke 13:22 And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem.

Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

This difficulty to understand the Gospel explains why the apostolic church in Jerusalem became so quickly divided, and why the Gentile Christians were also very confused about the teachings of Christ. The Gospel is not easy to comprehend, much less believe.

Which is why the Corinthian church had at least FOUR (4) different views of the Gospel! No wonder they was no peace in the Corinthian church? Today, in Laodicea, there are 4000 different versions of Christ, and every church is full of false and divisive doctrine, driven by an evil spirit.

1Cor. 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.

1Cor. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”

2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Christ is not divided, and neither is the Gospel or the Spirit. There is only one God and one Christ. There is also only one Sabbath doctrine taught by Christ. And it is the active, reformed, 7th day Sabbath, recorded in all four Gospels. The very fact that no church or denomination today is following the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, speaks volumes about the horrible state of the last church.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

There should be no division or debate about this obvious Sabbath teaching of Christ. But not only is there great debate, not one denomination in the world has correctly embraced this genuine NC doctrine, including the SDA’s, the self-proclaimed Sabbath experts. They are all blind, naked, divided, and wrong, following a “different” Gospel and “another” Christ, with a confused view of the Sabbath and many other things as well.

1Cor. 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Those who pursue Eternal Life cannot be trite, gullible, or lazy when it comes to making sure they understand the Christ of history. Salvation is NOT granted to those too lazy or naive to understand the Words of Christ correctly. Thus many have followed a false Christ and embraced one myth after another, including a false view of the Sabbath.

Matt. 24:5 “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.

The Jews paid a horrible price for rejecting the Gospel of Christ and his reformed, 7th day Sabbath. So too anyone today that emulates the unbelieving 1st century Jews.

Let all today pay close attention to the Word, making sure they understand what the genuine Christ is teaching about Gospel doctrine. Including his view about the reformed and active 7th day Sabbath for the church.

John 18:37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

It is not legalism to work hard to understand the Word of truth, or to “strive” to understand the Gospel. Such efforts are necessary to find saving faith and claim Eternal Life by faith.

Matt. 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Matt. 6:33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Today, the SDA church and all others are following a false Christ, with a false Sabbath. They are all, according to Christ, on a direct course to hell if they do not repent and embrace Gospel Reform.

However, the religious leaders today are just like the 1st century Jews that killed Christ and attacked the emerging church. They are full of double-talk and false doctrines, unable and unwilling to understand the Gospel; thus they refuse to repent and are doomed. Sad.

It is time for all those; in whatever denomination they find themselves, to repent of their many false views, honestly seeking the genuine Gospel of Christ, which includes his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 12-08-11 2:01 am

Tom: Jesus own disciples up to his ascension did not understand the kingdom of God . Look at Luke 24:44. When Peter toke a sword and cut off a soldier's ear you could tell the four Gospels did not clearly teach what is elaborated on in Paul's epistles. You fight this, Tom, and God made Paul his servant to minister to those that would want to be part of His kingdom. The disciples were so scared after the crucifixion, they hid because they were afraid of the Jews.

Tom, answer me this, if the Gospel message was preached so clearly in the Gospels why this fear:

John 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

By the way, this verse tells you what the Gospel is all about, "Peace (Jesus)be with you". Only He can forgive and give a restful state.

Last edited by bob_2 (12-08-11 2:02 am)

bob · 12-09-11 4:22 pm

Tom and I-miller, please explain what you believe the following verses mean:

Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

1Jn 3:21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Col 2: 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

l_miller · 12-10-11 8:39 pm

bob, I have been focus all week what tom say about Luke 13:24 makes sense to me. The Gospel is difficult:

While many teach that the Gospel is an easy concept to understand, accept, and believe, this is not true. Christ does not agree with anyone who thinks the Gospel is easily grasped and believed. In fact, he teaches the opposite, claiming that the Gospel is hard to find and comprehend, and that it is hidden from the religious leaders and the wealthy, those who naturally take control.

Luke 10:21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

Luke 18:24 And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!

Luke 19:41 When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,

Luke 19:42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. The very fact that the Jews failed to embrace Christ and understand his Gospel is all the proof, and warning, that anyone needs to prove how difficult it is for people to understand and be saved. If anyone should have understood and welcomed the Gospel, it was the Jews. But they killed their Messiah and spurned the Gospel.

John 12:38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”

The Gospel is counter-intuitive and very hard to comprehend. “Few” will understand the teachings of Christ even as “many” will embrace a false Christ and worthless Gospel.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Luke 13:22 And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem.

Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Last edited by l_miller (12-10-11 8:54 pm)

l_miller · 12-10-11 8:47 pm

Biblos.com: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages New International Version (©1984)
"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"Work hard to enter the narrow door to God's Kingdom, for many will try to enter but will fail.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

International Standard Version (©2008)
"Keep on struggling to enter through the narrow door, because I tell you that many people will try to enter, but won't be able to do so.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But Yeshua said to them, “Strive hard to enter the narrow gate, for I say to you, many shall seek to enter and they shall not be able.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"Try hard to enter through the narrow door. I can guarantee that many will try to enter, but they won't succeed.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Strive to enter in at the narrow gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

American King James Version
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

American Standard Version
Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.

Darby Bible Translation
Strive with earnestness to enter in through the narrow door, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in and will not be able.

English Revised Version
Strive to enter in by the narrow door: for many, I say unto you, shall seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Webster's Bible Translation
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say to you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Weymouth New Testament
"Strain every nerve to force your way in through the narrow gate," He answered; "for multitudes, I tell you, will endeavour to find a way in and will not succeed.

World English Bible
"Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in, and will not be able.

Young's Literal Translation
'Be striving to go in through the straight gate, because many, I say to you, will seek to go in, and shall not be able;

Last edited by l_miller (12-10-11 8:58 pm)

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