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Tom said:
Tom said: The Gospel is an ancient plan that has been active on planet earth from the beginning of creation. Even the OC is part of the Gospel Plan. It was not an accident, but part of the Gospel Story.
To say the "idea" of the Gospel has been around since it was first agreed to between the Father and the Son is correct, but without Christ's sacrifice it would all be talk. Certainly it was no accident but if you are suggesting the New Covenant has always been in effect, is anti-Biblical. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
Hebrews 9:22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
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Bob2 said: Tom, what about Matt 5:17
Tom said: The OC is part of the Gospel Plan, even as the law of God is eternal. Such a passage hardly removes the many passages where Jesus teaches his Reformed Sabbath.
Bob2 said: As is indicated if the verses following, Jesus was not only referring to the 10 commandments but to the entire Torah.
Tom said: Jesus was not a lawless person, teaching anarchy. He is making the point that the OC has eternal truth. God, not man, invented Judaism. He was not here to challenge God or the moral law, but to better explain him through the Gospel.
Bob2 said: Your stance indicates you are in opposition to the very words of Jesus.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. You are the one that pretends Jesus does not teach a NC Sabbath for the church. Even though it is clear and obvious to all but a few that he does indeed teach a reformed Sabbath doctrine for the church in all four Gospels.
So you, and all who embrace NCT are in “opposition” to Christ. Even Sunday keepers are more correct than NCT.
Bob2 said: Jesus did not teach Jews to ignore old covenant requirements and observe New Covenant requirements. You are completely off the Beam.
Tom said: Wow! You are very confused about the Gospel Story. I don’t think I can help you. You have embraced too many myths and errors to understand things properly. Sad.
How can any Christian think that Jesus did not teach the NC Gospel to his disciples and to the Jews? How can anyone think that Jesus was not updating the OC and changing it into the NC?
I don’t think you will find anyone, even within the NCT crowd, who agrees with your confusion. You are just making things up in a desperate attempt to defend what is obviously false and impossible doctrine. Sad.
Bob2 said: Even after Jesus death the new converts kept the old law.
Tom said: While there were some, including Peter and James, that turned back to the OC, and away from the Gospel, it was not correct or approved, as Paul makes clear in Galatians.
Moreover, there was a large legalistic movement in the early church that promoted the OC and tried to improperly mix the Gospel with the law, including circumcision for all Christians. These Judaizers, who claimed to be followers of Christ, were enemies of the NC. They hated the Gospel, even though they claimed to embrace it.
So what was your point? That people misunderstood the Gospel right from the start? OK! They did, and they still misunderstand the Gospel today.
Which is why everyone has a false Sabbath, and why it is obvious that none are paying any attention to the written Words of Christ. They are all pretending.
Every denomination in Laodicea is full of false doctrine, great corruption, and much sin. The universally wrong Sabbath doctrine proves the point.
Bob2 said: They really didn't start leaning to New Covenant practices till after the destruction of Jerusalem.
Tom said: Bob, your history is confused. People started “learning” the NC the very moment that Jesus started preaching the Gospel.
In fact, right after John the Baptist, who represents OC Law, was silenced and arrested, Jesus introduces the NC, aka, the Gospel.
Jesus was/is the greatest NC teacher in the world. I suggest you pay close attention.
Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God 1is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Mark 1:16 As He was going along by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen.
Mark 1:17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.”
Mark 1:18 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him.
Mark 1:19 Going on a little farther, He saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who were also in the boat mending the nets.
Mark 1:20 Immediately He called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went away to follow Him.
Mark 1:21 They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.
Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
The Gospel teachings of Jesus are NC. To deny this is to deny the Gospel.
Bob2 said: They were a thorn in Paul's side. He had to write and rewrite New Covenant requirements in order for them to finally see the light of the New Covenant.
Tom said: There were many who refused to embrace the pure Gospel of Christ. They were Jews and they loved the law and wanted to make it more prominent in the church. But they crossed the line in a number of places, thus enraging Paul, who hated the Circumcision Party, as he derogatorily called them.
Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to beat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Gal. 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of 1the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
The apostolic church was divided over the Gospel and finally, after Paul was gone, so too was the Gospel. The Gentiles essentially embraced the error of the Judiazers, as they set up a separate priesthood and promoted OC minded doctrines, including a non-working Sabbath, on the 1st day.
Acts 20:29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Acts 20:30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
At the end of time, the church will repent and return to the primitive Gospel of Christ, including his active, reformed, 7th day Sabbath.
Bob2 said: I believe you will go to any extent to try to get followers to your theory. I see it isn't working because people know more than you think they do.
Tom said: Ha! I don’t need to go far to prove my position about the Sabbath. My sources are the Gospels; these documents speak for themselves, if we allow it. My position is firmly based on the teaching of Jesus in the Gospels. Period.
Moreover, those who understand the Gospel have a duty to preach and teach it to others. They cannot remain silent in the face of so much false doctrine and theological corruption. You’re welcome.
Bob2 said: Mostly we understand that there is no Sabbath requirements and the whole SDA teaching that there is such a requirement for Christians is pure bunk.
Tom said: Ha! There is not one denomination that embraces this NCT theory about the Sabbath being abolished. So why are you pretending that “most” people agree with NCT? They don’t! Less people embrace NCT than they do the IJ! What does that tell you?
Almost NO ONE in the church teaches that there are “no Sabbath requirements.” Why can’t you tell the truth?
Furthermore, the present SDA view of the Sabbath is dead wrong. I am not saying otherwise. And so too all the rest of the Sabbath views out there. There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath. Eternal Life is for those that understand these things. Not for those that are clueless and lawless.
It is time for true Gospel doctrine to emerge within the last church. Now is the time. Why delay? It is time for the church to repent and embrace Gospel/Sabbath Reform.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, remember there is a Bob and a Bob_2 when preparing your responses.
To suggest the New Covenant started before Jesus blood was shed is anti Biblical. Had Jesus not lived perfectly to the OC there could not be a NC and salvation for any of us. Jesus spoke of the gospel and His Kingdom in future tense. They could accept Jesus in the Gospel story but until He died, it was not possibly to be forgiven. To say other is not under stand the work of Jesus that was necessary.
The Decalogue is not the eternal law of God. First it was tied to other "ceremonial" laws and festival as shown in Lev 23. It mentions creation that others in the universe such as angels and other being not created in His image.
Think for yourself, not by yourself. I told you and I told you and I told you!!
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Bob2 said: To suggest the New Covenant started before Jesus blood was shed is anti Biblical.
Tom said: It is correct to say that when Jesus was born on earth, the NC began. This is what the Christmas Story is all about. While the date of Dec 25 is wrong, the rest of the story shows that the Lord of the New Covenant had arrived to save mankind, before the cross.
Luke 2:8 In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luke 2:9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.
Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Luke 2:12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
Luke 2:13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men 1bwith whom He is pleased.”
Bob2 said: Had Jesus not lived perfectly to the OC there could not be a NC and salvation for any of us.
Tom said: Who are you to instruct God about the Gospel? While Jesus was not a sinner, he had to break many OC rules in order to preach the Gospel and develop the NC Church. Your claim that he could not do such things is absurd. He can and he did. The Sabbath is a perfect example.
Bob2 said: Jesus spoke of the gospel and His Kingdom in future tense.
Tom said: Jesus often spoke of his kingdom as being very near and present as well.
Matt. 12:28 “But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Luke 9:27 “But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”
Luke 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
Luke 17:21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
So much for your opinions? It is the facts that matter.
Bob2 said: They could accept Jesus in the Gospel story but until He died, it was not possibly to be forgiven. To say otherwise is not to understand the work of Jesus that was necessary.
Tom said: You are the one that does not understand the Gospel. Jesus makes it clear, before the cross, that he has the power and authority to forgive sins. The fact that you disagree,- is irrelevant. You have no basis to say many of the things you say. You do understand nor follow the teachings of Jesus.
Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mark 2:6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
Mark 2:7 “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Mark 2:8 Immediately Jesus, aware 1in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, *said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?
Mark 2:9 “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’?
Mark 2:10 “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” — He *said to the paralytic,
Mark 2:11 “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.”
Mark 2:12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”
Mark 2:13 ¶And He went out again by the seashore; and all the 1people were coming to Him, and He was teaching them.
The account in Luke adds to the story by showing us that Jesus called this man his “friend” as he forgave his sins.
So Bob, stop refuting the Gospel Story. Stop pretending that you are being honest with the teachings of Jesus. You are not. And neither is NCT that you support. It is a very dishonest theory, for very dishonest people.
Luke 5:20 Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.”
Luke 5:21 The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?”
Luke 5:22 But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts?
Luke 5:23 “Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
Luke 5:24 “But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,” — He said to the paralytic — “I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”
Luke 5:25 Immediately he got up before them, and picked up what he had been lying on, and went home glorifying God.
Luke 5:26 They were all struck with astonishment and began glorifying God; and they were filled with fear, saying, “We have seen remarkable things today.”
Anyone that denies this account, and claims that Jesus could not do what he claimed to do, (which you just did), is an enemy of Christ. You have lost any right to even claim to be Christian. You are just a pretender, and your name is legion.
Bob2 said: The Decalogue is not the eternal law of God.
Tom said: Your own words condemn you, even as they show you standing outside the Kingdom of God.
Bob2 said: First it was tied to other "ceremonial" laws and festival as shown in Lev 23.
Tom said: Those that deny the Sabbath, must also deny the Law of God, as well as the Semitic nature of the Gospel, and the teachings of Jesus.
So Bob, deny all you want, and play whatever games you want, but your views of doctrine are based on misinformation and dishonest manipulation of the Bible and church history.
Let all beware of those that claim to follow Christ, but in truth, repudiate his teachings at every opportunity. They are wolves is sheep’s clothing…
Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Matt. 10:16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
Luke 10:3 “Go; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.
Acts 20:29 “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom now you are getting further away from the Bible. When did the New Covenant begin:
Heb 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
Note the clarity of this verse:
Heb 10:8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The curtain in the Temple never was torn from top to bottom until Christ's death. Please show your source that says the New Covenant begain at His birth, Tom.
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Tom quoted this text:
Luke 5:20 Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.”
Tom, yes, this was before Christ's death. But had he sinned before His death, none of us would be able to be forgiven even the ones in Luke 5:20. Think what you are saying. Without His perfect life, death and resurrection, none of us would have any hope of salvation.
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Tom you may be biased against the following source but it say what I'm trying to get across to you:
The new covenant is based on faith. There is nothing in the new covenant that says we are required to keep the Sabbath according to the rules of the old covenant. In the New Testament, we see examples of people keeping the Sabbath, and we see statements that tell us the Sabbath is a shadow pointing to the reality, who is Christ. That doesn't mean that the Sabbath is done away, but it means the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ. It means Christ is more important than the Sabbath. It means the Sabbath rest for Christians in Hebrews 4 is the new life in Christ, not just a day of the week. And Paul tells us in Romans 14 that we should not be involved in disputes over days.
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Bob2 said: Tom now you are getting further away from the Bible. When did the New Covenant begin?
Tom said: It is NCT that is heading away from the Bible and away from the teachings of Christ in the Gospels. They are so confused about the Two Covenants that they don’t know what they are saying.
Understand this: From the beginning of the Gentile church, people have always added things to the original teachings of Christ. It was a cottage industry by the 2nd century, with various groups teaching different versions of the Christian Faith.
These Gnostics went into wild speculation about things that were not true, even declaring that the nothing in the OC transferred into the NC. Marcion went so far and to claim that the God of the NT was different from the OT version.
Faced with such false revisionism, the church Fathers gathered all the original Gospels and letters together, and created the NT, in order to defeat Marcion’s variant theology.
The church fathers were correct to make sure there was a genuine record for which to understand the Gospel Story. Thanks to them, we have the genuine teaching of Christ as our guide. It must be used to defeat any new or strange ideas that do not fit with the record.
NCT is as false as anything the Gnostics promoted. In fact, it is even worse, because Marcion did not deny the weekly Lord’s day for the church, which is the point of NCT.
NCT is following the path of Gnosticism. Their repeated denials and double-talk about the clear Sabbath teachings of Jesus, recorded in all four Gospels, is proof positive that these modern day Gnostics are alive and well. Thus history is repeating itself on this point for all to see.
Bob2 said: The curtain in the Temple never was torn from top to bottom until Christ's death. Please show your source that says the New Covenant begain at His birth, Tom.
Tom said: The NC is not about the furnishing of the Jewish Temple. Nor is it to be defined by such things.
Besides, the symbolism of this incident was not that the NC had started, (which it already had), but that the Messiah had completed his salvific death on the cross, as predicted by the Prophets of old. The Lamb of God had been slain. This was the meaning of the torn Temple Curtain.
Bob2 said: Tom, (the forgiveness of sin by Christ) yes, this was before Christ's death. But had he sinned before His death, none of us would be able to be forgiven even the ones in Luke 5:20.
Tom said: Jesus was not a pretend healer or a “maybe” Savior. When he healed people, it was for real, and so too when he forgave sins.
Luke 5:24 “But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,” — He said to the paralytic — “I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”
This idea about what might have happened, is not only irrelevant, it is not part of the Gospel Story. We must stick to the recorded version of the Gospel and not become sidetracked with myth, fiction, or speculation.
One cannot develop theology on what might have taken place, when we know it did not. This is not how the Word is to be read, much less how doctrine is formulated.
When Jesus says to people that their sins are forgiven, it is so. He did not say, “However, it will not be true unless this or that takes place.” He did not say that, -- and thus we are forbidden to place such false words into the Gospel Story.
Jesus says it is an “easy thing” for him to forgive sins, but Bob says, no, it is difficult, and not possible before the cross, thus refuting Jesus and denying the Gospel Story.
Matt. 9:5 “Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’?
Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mark 2:9 “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’?
Bob, you need to repent for the way you disregard the Word. You are on very dangerous ground. You refute Christ at every opportunity.
Furthermore, those who follow Christ are duty bound to forgive others, just as they have been forgiven. Not in a pretend manner, but for real.
Mark 11:25 “Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.
Bob2 said: Tom, Think what you are saying. Without His perfect life, death and resurrection, none of us would have any hope of salvation.
Tom said: Think of what you are saying? Why do you want to argue with Christ? Why do you want to change the Gospel Story?
I am only pointing out what the NT teaches about many things, including the NC Sabbath. Those who make up their own version of Jesus, and refute what is so plainly written in the Gospels, have no hope of salvation. Unless they repent and embrace the genuine Gospel, they are doomed.
So the issue is not about the Sabbath, but about paying attention to the teachings of Christ in the Gospels. The Sabbath is a good litmus test to see who is actually reading the Word correctly, and following Jesus.
Most all that claim to know the Bible, and claim to follow Jesus, are blind and deluded. They know neither the Bible nor Christ. This is the problem with Laodicea; their views of the Gospel are very wrong and worthless. NCT underscores this epidemic of error and rebellion against Christ, and so too does the present state of the Sabbath doctrine in every church, including the SDA’s.
When the Gospel is correctly understood, - so too the doctrine of the Sabbath.
Bob2 said: Tom you may be biased against the following source but it says what I'm trying to get across to you:
Tom said: I am very biased against those who are not honest with the scriptures. NCT is full of double-talk and hypocrisy, as well as awful hermeneutics. I make no apologies for being against such error.
Let’s take a closer look at what you think is so great. Did you know that this same article, that double-talks the Sabbath away, does the OPPOSITE with tithe?
In other words, while the author admits that tithing is an OC doctrine, he nonetheless embraces it for the NC. Which makes no sense and only proves that this NCT crowd is just making things up without any basis or reason.
Listen to this outrageous defense of tithe in the church by a NCT advocate. It is full of error. There is no such doctrine as tithe in the NC, so why do they pretend otherwise?
“Under the new covenant the tithe is voluntary, done out of love and allegiance to Jesus Christ. And isn't that appropriate? Shouldn't our giving be done out of the measure of the love of God in our hearts? The new covenant stresses generosity more than the old did. The new covenant doesn't set a new percentage, but it requires greater sacrifice.”
“A person who has faith in Jesus Christ does not worry about whether tithing is commanded in the New Testament. A person who has faith wants to give all he can to Christ — within his means, of course. Christians should give generously to the church — but again, giving is a result of their relationship with God, not a basis for it. We are given access to the throne of grace through faith, not through tithing. But shouldn't our attitude be willingness to give more than the minimum?”
“Some people think that Christ liberates us from the law so that we can be more selfish. That is false! He liberates us from the penalty of the law so that we can be free to serve him more, as loving children and not merely as slaves under the lash. He frees us so we can have faith instead of selfish anxieties.”
“When it comes to tithing, the real question is, Is your heart in the gospel of Jesus Christ? Are you putting your money where your heart is? Or maybe I should state it as a fact: You can tell where your heart is by seeing where you are putting your money. "Where you treasure is, there will your heart be also," Jesus said (Matthew 6:21).”
Wow! While NCT may hate the Sabbath, it embraces tithing. This makes no sense. Why drag an OC doctrine into the NC, without any basis? And why remove the Sabbath, pretending there is no NC Sabbath for the church?
This is illogical and absurd. Tithing cannot be a doctrine in the church, and neither can the OC Sabbath of Moses. But the Reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ must be part of the NC. And so too the Priesthood of all Believers, that is so much a part of this Gospel Sabbath.
Bob2 quoted: “The new covenant is based on faith. There is nothing in the new covenant that says we are required to keep the Sabbath according to the rules of the old covenant.
Tom said: Agreed. The Reformed Sabbath under discussion does NOT follow the rules of the OC. This is why the religious authorities became so angry with Jesus. His NC Sabbath was breaking the OC rules.
While NCT is correct to say the OC Sabbath has been abolished, they are very wrong to think the reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ has been removed or done away with.
Bob2 quoted: In the New Testament, we see examples of people keeping the Sabbath, and we see statements that tell us the Sabbath is a shadow pointing to the reality, who is Christ.
Tom said: This is a sloppy, dishonest, and incorrect summary of how the Sabbath is portrayed in the NT. The author ignored many things, including the fact that Jesus and the Jews had angry debates over the doctrine of the Sabbath in all four Gospels.
He also failed to explain the real reason for the debates, much less to explain that Jesus’ view of the Sabbath was very different from the OC norm, even claiming that God showed him this new active Sabbath where all are Priests of God.
So here is where the NCT crowd just makes things up, pretending that the Gospels do not exist. And if they do, there is nothing in them to establish any type of Sabbath for the church. NCT is garbage. It is very dishonest theology.
Bob2 quoted: That doesn't mean that the Sabbath is done away, but it means the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ.
Tom said: Who says that the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ? Not Christ, and not the apostles. Jesus does not teach that he is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, and it is pure blasphemy to make such a claim. Sorry.
However, NCT is CORRECT when they say:
“Consequently, the way the Sabbath is to be observed under the new covenant differs from the way it was to be observed under the old covenant.”
http://www.gci.org/law/newcovsabb
This is a wonderful insight, which they need to follow up. Jesus does indeed teach a different version of the 7th day Sabbath for the church, but it is not what they are trying to teach.
Bob2 quoted: It means Christ is more important than the Sabbath.
Tom said: Of course Christ is more important than the 7th day, or any day. No day of the week died on the cross for anyone.
The real question is this: What does Christ teach about the Sabbath?
The answer to this is self-evident from reading the Gospels.
Bob2 quoted: It means the Sabbath rest for Christians in Hebrews 4 is the new life in Christ, not just a day of the week. And Paul tells us in Romans 14 that we should not be involved in disputes over days.
Tom said: It is very dishonest for anyone to ignore the Sabbath teaching of Jesus, in all four gospels, so that they can run to Paul for a definition of the Sabbath. Such a stunt is worthless.
Jesus is fully capable of articulating a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church and this is EXACTLY what he has done in all four Gospels.
Jesus is the head of the church and the author of the Gospel Sabbath. All must go to him, the Lord of the Sabbath, to understand the Sabbath.
It is obvious that Jesus has much to still teach those who claim to follow him.
I suggest that all run to Christ to learn the Gospel Truth about the NC, reformed Sabbath.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the genuine, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath
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Tom, so Paul is a liar, eh?? If Paul knew the Jewish teaching even killed the Christians, knowing all that is Jewish. Then what of this:
Acts 26:12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
If Jesus was to show Paul things he did not know yet, ought you not, yes know the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but don't overlook Paul's teach as given to him by Jesus?
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Tom said: Who says that the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ? Not Christ, and not the apostles. Jesus does not teach that he is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, and it is pure blasphemy to make such a claim. Sorry.
My response would be:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
and
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
If forgiveness for sin, and trying to make ourselves spotless by our works then peace and rest must be the ultimate goal of man, OT and NT man, Paul indicates that He, Jesus, Himself is our peace. How much clearer can it be, Tom. If you go over the WHOLE Law of Moses, not just the "ceremonial" aspects of the Mosaic Covenant, but all the 5 books plus the Prophets and the Psalms. Jus look at the 23rd Psalm. Who is it talking about, Jesus of course. Jesus declared all shadows have been fulfilled in the reality of Jesus our Shepard.
Psalm 23
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he refreshes my soul.
He guides me along the right paths
for his name’s sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the darkest valley,[a]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely your goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.
Is this not talking about rest that Jesus does and will give. Jesus said He fulfilled everything written about Him. He is our peace. Sabbath was a shadow of Jesus.
Last edited by bob_2 (09-28-11 2:11 pm)
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Tom said:
This idea about what might have happened, is not only irrelevant, it is not part of the Gospel Story. We must stick to the recorded version of the Gospel and not become sidetracked with myth, fiction, or speculation.
Tom, are you then saying that during His whole life, Jesus was not tempted in all ways that we might be?
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
Are you suggesting there was a part of His life up to His death that He was not in danger of being tempted???
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Bob2 said: Tom, so Paul is a liar, eh??
Tom said: No. It is those who misrepresent Paul and the Gospel of Christ that are liars and wolves. Paul supports the NC Sabbath of Christ, which is why he says that those who follow Christ are not to allow anyone to “judge” their Sabbath behavior and activity.
Paul makes it clear that Christ is the head of all knowledge and doctrine, and thus Christians are to walk like Christ “walked.” And this would include following Jesus controversial view of the Sabbath, which caused so much trouble.
Read the preview of Paul’s remarks about the Reformed Sabbath. Most everyone overlooks this context and thus many embrace a false view.
Col. 2:6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
Col. 2:7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
Col. 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Col. 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Col. 2:10 and in Him you have been made 1complete, and He is the head 2over all rule and authority;
Col. 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
Col. 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Col. 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col. 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Col. 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
-----------------------------------------
Now, with all that as prelude, here comes the point:
Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day —
Col. 2:17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Here Paul is fighting with the Judaizers, who wanted to observe the OC Festivals, including circumcision, as well as the OC, non-working, 7th day Sabbath.
Paul does not say the Sabbath is abolished, but rather, no one (meaning a Judaizer) is to judge our behavior on the 7th day, or to force us to observe the Jewish Festivals. (No Gentile would care).
This is what the Jews did to Christ. They judged his Sabbath behavior to be wrong, and even killed him for it. This was no secret. These Sabbath debates are featured in the Gospel Story.
Consequently, Paul teaches that no Christian should let anyone (meaning the Judaizers), start enforcing OC rules about Sabbath behavior. He would not stand for that and neither should we today. There are no rules against work on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath and Paul is making this point.
This Pauline passage supports the NC, Reformed Sabbath of Christ, even as it repudiates the OC Sabbath, and many other things, like the Jewish Festivals promoted by the Circumcision Party.
As for the Shadow remark, this applies mostly to the festivals, even as the “substance” of it all, including the Gospel Sabbath “belongs to Christ.”
This passage condemns the SDA view of the Sabbath. Their view of the Sabbath is OC based, even as they repudiate the Priesthood of all believers, and embrace tithing to underscore their confusion.
Bob2 said: If Jesus was to show Paul things he did not know yet, ought you not, yes know the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but don't overlook Paul's teach as given to him by Jesus?
Tom said: Paul was NOT taught anything new or different from what the rest of the apostles were taught. Nor does Paul make any such a claim as you are putting forward.
Paul does not claim originality for his Gospel.
In fact, Paul makes it clear that he wanted to meet the original apostles to make sure that he, (Paul) understood the Gospel correctly. In other words, he did not go there to educate them about the Gospel. They knew it long before Paul.
The very fact that Paul wanted to make sure he was not wrong about the Gospel, means he was not anymore advanced. He needed and wanted their approval and verification that he was following the genuine Gospel of Christ.
Thus, there is no basis for anyone to claim that Paul received secret information from Christ that was not taught to the original apostles. There is only one Gospel and Paul’s version is no different from the other apostles, the dispute in Galatians notwithstanding.
Gal. 2:1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also.
Gal. 2:2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.
Stop revising and changing the Gospel Story. Your attempt to defend NCT has failed. Admit it and repent.
Note: Not everything that NCT teaches is wrong. In fact, 2 of their 3 fundamental points are correct.
First, NCT is correct to state that every doctrine of the Sabbath in the church today is wrong.
Second, they are also correct to state that there must be a change in the doctrine of the Sabbath in the NC. The OC Sabbath cannot be the Gospel Sabbath.
However, they are very wrong to ignore the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ and pretend that he fulfilled the Sabbath and then abolished it. He did neither.
There is no excuse for such sloppy theology. While their premise was sound, they failed to solve the problem only making matters worse, not better.
There is no basis for anyone to say that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath. This is not taught anywhere in the Bible, much less in the Gospels, were it must be found in order to be true doctrine for the church.
Luke nowhere says that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath and you need to stop being so careless and dishonest with the Word.
Bob2 said: If forgiveness for sin, and trying to make ourselves spotless by our works then peace and rest must be the ultimate goal of man, OT and NT man,
Tom said: Stop the double talk. The NT makes it clear that the ultimate rest cannot take place until after the 2nd Coming. Such a point in no way means that Jesus is our Sabbath rest, as NCT claims. Sorry.
Bob2 said: Paul indicates that He, Jesus, Himself is our peace.
Tom said: Doctrine cannot be established on “indications,” but on the clear teaching of Christ. There can be no doubt that Jesus has made peace between God and Man. But there is also no doubt that he has articulated a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church in all four Gospels. These two, peace and the Sabbath, are not mutually exclusive doctrines.
Nothing that Paul or anyone else can say or write, will alter, change, or remove the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. This is the point that all must understand.
Jesus Reformed Sabbath is featured, defended, and debated in all four Gospels. How in the world the church has missed this doctrine all these years is astounding. How did the SDA’s miss this point?
Today, a person would have to be BLIND not to see the Gospel Sabbath of Christ in the Gospels. And so the church is. This is what Jesus is saying in the LM.
As for Peace, Paul refers to the “Gospel of peace,” even as he correctly teaches that Jesus is our peace, but he never says Jesus is our Sabbath, or that he has fulfilled or removed this famous weekly doctrine.
Rom. 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom. 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom. 12:18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.
Rom. 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Eph. 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Eph. 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
Eph. 2:17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
Eph. 4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph. 6:15 and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
Peace is a good thing. But it is not in competition with the Gospel Sabbath. They can both co-exist in the church.
Bob2 said: How much clearer can (Psalms) be, Tom. If you go over the WHOLE Law of Moses, not just the "ceremonial" aspects of the Mosaic Covenant, but all the 5 books plus the Prophets and the Psalms. Jus look at the 23rd Psalm. Who is it talking about, Jesus of course. Jesus declared all shadows have been fulfilled in the reality of Jesus our Shepard.
Tom said: NT doctrine cannot be established from the OT. So let’s not waste time quoting the wrong material.
In other words, unless Christ clearly teaches that he has fulfilled and then abolished the weekly Sabbath, there can be no such doctrine for the church. Not from Psalms or from any other book in the Bible.
If you want to understand the Gospel Sabbath, -go to Christ in the Gospels. It’s just that simple. Go to Christ; learn from him how to view the NC Sabbath.
This is the problem with NCT; it takes a position that is against the words and teachings of Christ in the Gospels. It ignores, refutes, and changes Jesus view of the Sabbath, inventing its own confused and impossible doctrine. This is all wrong.
Let all go to Christ and learn the Gospel Sabbath… How hard is this to understand?
Tom said: Who says that the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ? Not Christ, and not the apostles. Jesus does not teach that he is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, and it is pure blasphemy to make such a claim. Sorry.
Bob2 said: My response would be:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Tom said: Wrong answer. We have already shown that Jesus was speaking about the CROSS-, not about fulfilling the Sabbath. Did you forget? And why did you not quote the proper context? Just look at the next few verses, they explain what he is talking about, and it is not the Sabbath.
Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Luke 24:45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
Luke 24:46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:48 “You are witnesses of these things.
Tom said: This idea about what might have happened, is not only irrelevant, it is not part of the Gospel Story. We must stick to the recorded version of the Gospel and not become sidetracked with myth, fiction, or speculation.
Bob2 said: Tom, are you then saying that during His whole life, Jesus was not tempted in all ways that we might be?
…Are you suggesting there was a part of His life up to His death that He was not in danger of being tempted???
Tom said: Jesus had far more temptations than we will ever have. However, I have no idea why you think this is relevant to our discussion about the Reformed Sabbath.
Think about it: The great temptation for Christ was to call off his mission and destroy the earth. Why should he, the Son of God, put up with all the insults, grief, and pain from such stupid mortals? Why not say a word and slay all those who would not listen. This is what his disciples wanted him to do.
Luke 9:51 When the days were approaching for His ascension, He was determined to go to Jerusalem;
Luke 9:52 and He sent messengers on ahead of Him, and they went and entered a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him.
Luke 9:53 But they did not receive Him, because He was traveling toward Jerusalem.
Luke 9:54 When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?”
Luke 9:55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;
Luke 9:56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.” And they went on to another village.
John 10:18 “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
Matt. 26:53 “Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
If any of us had the powers of Christ, we would act the same as his disciples. We would misuse that power. But we have no such power and thus we have no such temptation. But Christ had such a choice, and thus great temptation to use his power the wrong way.
There can be no doubt that Christ was tempted to use force and power to achieve his goals, but he understood that the Gospel of God is not based on force or law, but love and forgiveness.
Phil. 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be 1grasped,
Phil. 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Phil. 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
It is remarkable, even beyond our comprehension, that Christ would willingly submit to being human and then submit again to the insults and torture of the cross, followed by the grave. It is a breathtaking story that deserves our serious attention.
So Bob, why not admit that NCT does not have the correct solution to the universal error about the Sabbath?
Why not rejoice that the answer is finally out in the open for all to see? The Gospel Sabbath was in the NT all the time, all these years. Who knew?
Why not follow the facts, and embrace the mountain of evidence that correctly leads to the active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ?
This is what all SDA’s should do; In fact, they should be the first ones to embrace this updated, doctrinal truth that is part of their theological history and mission.
Here’s an idea: why don’t all SDA’s get serious about the Word by embracing the one and only NC Sabbath? This is the true Gospel Sabbath and the culmination of their long struggle and mission to reform the Sabbath.
This is also the correct Sabbath doctrine of the 4th Angels Message. Which means that unless the SDA’s repent of their OC Sabbath, they will never be able to move forward to the last great Gospel Message that SDA’s have made their eschatological goal.
The Reformed, 7th day Sabbath is “Present Truth” for us today. It will lead to a better understanding of the Gospel and Prophecy.
Let all understand: this new doctrine can save the Advent Movement, placing it once more on a Gospel Path to the final Advent message, known as the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.
This is where the Advent Movement has been heading all along, and now it the time to admit that the 3rd Angels Message is no longer functional and has ceased, thus forcing the movement forward to the final and much improved message.
It is not every day when such a remarkable, new doctrine is placed on the table for all to see. But here it is.
New Light is here for the Advent Movement, and so too a new path of Present Truth.
It is time for all to grow up and understand the Gospel and the Sabbath teaching of Christ. The time for myths, false doctrine, and double-talk is past.
Time is short. The Advent Movement needs to wake up and move forward to the 4th Angels Message.
Rev. 3:2 ‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.
Rev. 3:3 ‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath of Christ
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Tom said:
Paul does not claim originality for his Gospel.
Really? Note:
Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14 I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus.18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.
To suggest the other Apostles had what took three years in the desert to receive is why you have created your own Reformed Sabbath and made it an idol, a god that is not anywhere part of Paul's Gospel given directly to him by Jesus. You are a man, you are teaching something of man's origination. I don't like to claim someone needs to repent because Jesus will be the judge. I will ask you one last question that I know you back away from when asked:
Is it necessary to keep the seventh day Sabbath to be saved? There is no command in the NT to do so. Christ never commanded it under the OC nor after the cross and before His ascension. He in Luke 24: 44 claimed to fulfill all that was written about Him in the OC. He fulfilled the Sabbath that is listed in Lev 23 as one of the festivals for the Jews to keep. Any rule the Pharisees imposed on the Jews were man made and not part of the Mosaic Law but was false doctrine. Nothing Reformed about what Jesus believed/gave about the Sabbath. He was correcting what the Pharisees had put in the Oral Law between Sinai and the Cross. Jesus had a right to be angry and the Pharisees adding to the Sabbath Law when one more important than the Temple was present, including the two tablets in the ark in the most holy place that was not holy after His death signified by the torn curtain from top to bottom, something that could only be done by God for His Son in whom He was well pleased.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-01-11 1:56 am)
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Tom, to show you that you don't know what you are talking about, that Jesus just clarified not reformed the Sinai Covenant/Law, note this:
The Pharisees (from the Hebrew perushim, from parash, meaning "to separate") were, depending on the time, a political party, a social movement, and a school of thought among Jews that flourished during the Second Temple Era (536 BCE–70 CE). After the destruction of the Second Temple, Pharisaic Judaism came to be known as Rabbinic Judaism, and then, simply as Judaism. The Pharisees were an ancient sect of Judaism; they existed during the time of rabbis Hillel the Elder and Shammai, and during the time of Jesus. They are the direct predecessor to what eventually became known as Rabbinic Judaism.
In contrast to other Jewish groups of the time, such as Sadducees, Pharisees held that the books of the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible, also called the written law) have always been transmitted in parallel with an oral tradition. They pointed as proof to the text of the Torah itself, where they said many words were left undefined, and many procedures mentioned without explanation or instructions; the reader is assumed to be familiar with the details from other sources. This parallel set of material was originally transmitted orally, and came to be known as "the oral law". By the year 200 much of this material was edited together into the Mishnah, the core document of rabbinic Judaism. Thus, from the Saduccee and Essene point of view, the Pharisees were the liberal party, which allowed for flexibility in the interpretation of the law.
The social standing and beliefs of the Pharisees changed over time, as political and social conditions in Judea changed; it is thus impossible to understand the Pharisees without understanding their historical context.
http://enc.slider.com/Enc/Pharisees
You should be able to see why Jesus was so angry at the Pharisees and their Oral Law, and see that you have called it in error, a Reformed Sabbath or a Reformed anything, that should be in place. It was man's rules as Jesus recognized!!!! Not God given law.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-03-11 5:23 pm)
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It seems to me that the only reformed sabbath that the SDAs's can have is the lunar sabbath. And, because it was used to calculate the 1844 event, in order to be consistent in claiming that the sabbath is still relevant in proving that they are God's remnant church, they will have to keep it. You can't have it both ways. Seems you must either drop the 1844 belief or the spurious saturnday keeping.
-------
How the Millerites Arrived at October 22, 1844
http://www.worldslastchance.com/yahuwah … -1844.html
Cadge
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Tom said: Christ, the Son of God is above the Mosaic Law. So he could break it all day long and not be guilty. And he did so with his teachings and actions about the Sabbath as well as many other things.
I can't believe you said it was alright for Jesus to sin!!!!! He was born under the Mosaic Law and had to keep it perfectly to save us, die and be resurrected and ascend to His prominent place on God right hand. Jesus only called the Pharisees on the Oral Law that was man made, not God given. Nothing Reformed but calling sin by it's right name.
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Tom said: Paul does not claim originality for his Gospel.
Bob2 objected and said: Really?
Bob2 quoted: Gal 1:11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. … I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus. 18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.
Bob2 continued: To suggest the other Apostles had what took three years in the desert to receive is why you have created your own Reformed Sabbath and made it an idol, a god that is not anywhere part of Paul's Gospel given directly to him by Jesus.
Tom said: The apostles spent three years living and working with Jesus during his Gospel Ministry. They were eyewitness to all that took place, including the many Sabbath debates, which led to the cross.
Paul was way behind about this Gospel history. And because there were no written accounts of Jesus teachings at this time, he was given personal instruction from the Living Word.
Paul was only catching up on what happened, not receiving new information about the Gospel, from Christ himself.
So my point stands. Paul’s Gospel is not original or even different, the anomaly in Galatians not withstanding. He received his Gospel from the same source as all the others, including us! From Jesus, --except we have the written Word and he did not.
So I say again, Paul received his Gospel from Jesus, and thus he was not being original or different. There is only one Gospel for all the apostles and for everyone else. Paul cannot, and does not, have a different Gospel from Peter, James, and John, nor does he view the NC Sabbath differently from them.
Bob2 said: You are a man, you are teaching something of man's origination.
Tom said: I am teaching the Sabbath of Christ. He is the man that all must understand and follow if they want Eternal Life.
If my view of Jesus Sabbath teaching is wrong, then please show the evidence. But the active, reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ is not wrong, which is why it cannot be refuted. It is clearly embedded in all four Gospels for all to see for themselves.
All should go to the Gospels, not to Tom Norris or Dr. Ford, and learn what Jesus really teaches about the NC Sabbath. He is the man that has the correct view of the Sabbath for the church.
Bob2 said: I don't like to claim someone needs to repent because Jesus will be the judge.
Tom said: Those that understand the Gospel, also understand that repentance is part of the Gospel Proclamation. In fact, it must precede anyone embracing the Gospel or receiving the Sprit.
Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 17:30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Furthermore, Christ makes it clear that the last church is so bad that they must all repent and embrace the genuine Gospel or be thrown out of the Kingdom of God.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
So I have no hesitation to tell the SDA’s, (or anyone else for that matter that does not understand the Gospel), to repent. This is the duty of all that teach and preach the Gospel. The fact that you did not know this only underscores your lack of Gospel comprehension.
Bob2 asked: I will ask you one last question that I know you back away from when asked: Is it necessary to keep the seventh day Sabbath to be saved?
Tom said: This is not a hard question; The Sabbath doctrine does not save anyone, especially the OC Sabbath where one is forced to rest and forbidden to work. Anyone that is following the nonworking Sabbath, either on Sunday, or on the 7th day, is following the wrong view of the Sabbath. They do not understand the Gospel fully or correctly.
Understand this: Anyone that rejects, refutes, and marginalizes the teachings of Jesus will not be saved. To have Gospel faith in Christ is to first accept what he teaches as true. Those who follow a false Christ will not receive Eternal Life.
Bob2 said: There is no command in the NT to do so. Christ never commanded it under the OC nor after the cross and before His ascension.
Tom said: There is no command for anyone in the NC to follow the OC Sabbath, much less pay tithe to a separate Priesthood in the church. This fact means the SDA’s are very confused and wrong about the NC theology. While they do have the correct day, they have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath.
As for the NC Sabbath, it is such a free and easy doctrine that it is almost impossible to break it. There are so few rules, even as all are guiltless to work or play on the 7th day.
Those that follow Christ, will also understand and embrace his view of the Gospel Sabbath. They are not ashamed of his REFORMED; NC Sabbath, and thus they follow the teachings of Christ in all things.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
Christ’s Sabbath teaching is the Word of God. He made this point very clear to the Jews. But of course they rejected Jesus and his Gospel Sabbath.
Today, there is no excuse for anyone claiming to follow Christ, to also reject his view of the Sabbath. Anyone that refuses to read the Gospels, and refuses to honestly process hear what Jesus is saying about the Gospel Sabbath is not a Christian. They are pretenders and fakes.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Bob2 said: He in Luke 24: 44 claimed to fulfill all that was written about Him in the OC. He fulfilled the Sabbath that is listed in Lev 23 as one of the festivals for the Jews to keep.
Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, Let these words sink into your head.
Jesus never made any claims that he fulfilled the Sabbath. Not in Luke or in any Gospel. He was speaking about his death on the cross.
Luke 9:44 “Let these words sink into your ears; for the Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.”
Stop trying to change the Gospel Story. You need to listen to the Word; honestly trying to process the meaning, as opposed to what you want the passage to support.
Bob 2 said: Any rule the Pharisees imposed on the Jews were man made and not part of the Mosaic Law but was false doctrine.
Tom said: The law against work on the Sabbath, except for the Leviticial Priesthood, was part of the Torah. This law against work on the Sabbath came from God himself, not the Pharisees as you pretend. Moses even had a man executed for gathering firewood on the Sabbath.
Again: stop trying to revise the Gospel Story to fit your false doctrines.
Jesus purposefully broke the OC Sabbath law so that he could teach the NC Gospel to the Jews and the church. He was not a Levite and thus he had no permission to act as if he were a Priest who could work on the Sabbath, much less declare that everyone was also a Priest of God.
Bob2 said: Nothing Reformed about what Jesus believed/gave about the Sabbath.
Tom said: WRONG! Jesus taught a revolutionary doctrine of the Sabbath, that not only allowed all manner of work on the 7th day, but one that also required a changed Priesthood, as well as an abolished OC, Temple based paradigm.
Jesus NC view of the Sabbath overturned the OC paradigm and changed everything, even as the Church was born by the direct design and plan of God.
Bob2 said: He was correcting what the Pharisees had put in the Oral Law between Sinai and the Cross.
Tom said: WRONG! Jesus came to transform Judaism into the Church. He was not picking a fight with the Pharisees, but because they so fervently supported the OC Law, they were natural enemies.
Jesus, a great healer, became famous in Israel for introducing, teaching, and preaching the Gospel. The NC Sabbath is an important and very controversial part of this Gospel teaching because it required a changed Priesthood, with himself as the new High Priest of all believers, both male and female.
No one had ever heard of such a religious configuration or teaching, much less one that seemed to go against thousands of years of careful tradition. Jesus view of the NC Sabbath shocked the Jews, even as his Gospel was the most amazing theology they had every heard.
Those who denied the many NC changes as proposed by Christ, like the Pharisees, also denied the Gospel. Those who embraced it, also embraced the Gospel Sabbath.
The SDA’s have been very correct to predict that at the end of time, the doctrine of the Sabbath will have a major impact on the church as shown in Rev 18. But they were a bit off. They fell short in their understanding of the Gospel and thus the Gospel Sabbath.
But no longer. Thanks to Dr. Ford, the SDA’s have access to the genuine Gospel, and thus it is time for them to go forward and understand the Gospel Sabbath correctly, which is very different form the OC, non working, guilt ridden, tithe based, Sabbath of the SDA’s.
Let’s go People! There is a new Sabbath in town; one that is paradigm changing for the Advent Movement.
Is anyone listening?
Bob2 said: Jesus had a right to be angry and the Pharisees adding to the Sabbath Law when one more important than the Temple was present, including the two tablets in the ark in the most holy place that was not holy after His death signified by the torn curtain from top to bottom, something that could only be done by God for His Son in whom He was well pleased.
Tom said: This idea that the Jesus was only correcting the oral traditions of the Pharisees is absurd and wrong, wrong, wrong.
Jesus was changing the OC paradigm and transforming it into a NC model. He was abolishing the Levitical Priesthood and changing the way the Temple was to be viewed.
He was REFORMING OC Judaism (Israel) into NC Judaism, which is the Church, the New Israel.
Gal. 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Gal. 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Gal. 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Jesus was greater than the law, and his NC Sabbath made this point very clear, as well as his intention to sweep away the OC system and replace it was the NC Church.
No wonder the Jewish leaders wanted to kill him, he was changing everything! He was overthrowing Moses and breaking the law, sending many of the religious elites into unemployment.
John 11:46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.
John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.
John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
The NC is very different from the OC. While they are both 100% Jewish, there are vast differences on many levels, even as there are many similarities.
Jesus was not only correct to be angry with the Jews for rejecting his Gospel, (and the NC Sabbath), he is also correct to be angry with the Laodicean Church today for its rejection of the Gospel and the same NC Sabbath.
Mark 3:5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He *said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
Mark 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.
Mark 3:7 Jesus withdrew to the sea with His disciples; and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and also from Judea,
Mark 3:8 and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and beyond the Jordan, and the vicinity of Tyre and Sidon, a great number of people heard of all that He was doing and came to Him.
Note Jesus getting angry with those that refused his Reformed, Gospel Sabbath. But also see his great popularity with the people.
The Greek wording in Rev 3:16 shows that Jesus is not so much angry as he is physically sick at the horrible state of the last church. They do not have the correct Gospel or the NC Sabbath. Which is why they must repent before they can go forward to do their Gospel duty.
The Reformed Sabbath of Christ demands the attention of the Advent Movement as well as every other church and denomination. Here is a Gospel doctrine that must be addressed, understood, and embraced by any that have the Spirit of Christ.
Mark 4:9 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Dear Pastor Norris,
Been reading extensively through your website. I would like to know if we are to appreciate this light and work together. I have a small church that we meet on a Sabbath.
However, if this message need be applied it will take me some months to share with them. Obviously the mainstream SDA refers to us as offshoots.
Let me know your strategies on your outreach, sharing the present truth, New light with others etc. That way we can rest assured we have Brethrens to team up and be supported if possible.
Also if you have written some books, would love to know so that I can share with my group members. Again if you have some of your DVDS" presentations would be fine. You can send us to listen. That way every one can judge the truth for himself or herself.
Let me know more details. Establishing churches with the new light and vision can help further the message more than online.
Here in Africa not many people do have computers or even Internet education, they are just a few.
Let me know your ideas and what you think.
God bless,
Pastor Langat
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Tom Norris replied:
Dear Pastor L,
Good to hear that you are interested in the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. This is a new doctrine for the church to study and embrace. It is “Present Truth” for the church today. Good to see that you understand this theological fact.
All those familiar with the SDA view of the Sabbath should especially pay attention, as this new doctrine represents the completion of their correct quest for Sabbath Reform.
However, while the SDA’s were correct about the 7th day as opposed to Sunday, they failed to fully understand the true nature of Jesus Sabbath teachings, and for this error, as well as for many others, they must repent and embrace Gospel reform.
While many are shocked at this new Sabbath doctrine, it is clear that the SDA’s have embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Pharisees; not the active Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which is a very different doctrine.
While I am glad to see that you want to teach your local church in Africa this important Gospel Truth, I am sad to say that few in the US seem to care about reforming the church or finding truth. Nonetheless, truth goes on, and so too eschatology, with its final destiny of Judgement for all.
I suggest that you research and discuss these issues online, as this will be the easiest way. In due time, there will be books and such.
Here are some websites for your study. The first two are active, allowing you to ask questions and discuss the issues, while the last two are only for research.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … opics.html
http://www.adventistreform.com/
Thanks again for your interest in the Gospel Sabbath and Adventist Reform. I wish you much Gospel success as you and your church strive to follow the teachings of Christ.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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I think it is good that you caution this guy from Africa to study for himself, rather than follow you or any other man.
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Tom, I would like your opinion on post #290 and it's reference to the Millerite/SDA pioneer determination of the Daniel 8:14 2300 day prophecy arriving at Oct 22 1844 by the Lunar calendar. Or, how can they use the Lunar calendar for that, yet disregard it for determining weekly Sabbaths?
http://www.worldslastchance.com/yahuwah … -1844.html
http://www.worldslastchance.com/view-vi … art-1.html
http://www.worldslastchance.com/view-vi … art-2.html
Thanks,
Cadge
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Cadge, Lunar phase on 27 September 2011 Tuesday is New Moon. Next Lunar phase on 26 October 2011 Wednesday is New Moon. Lunar sabbatarians believes not the weekly sabbath but the sabbath of the new moon is the sabbath day.
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An SDA Discusses Lunar Sabbaths. You can read Maggie B. on http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1192979402.
Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 10:00 pm:
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Cadge, I'm new here and you were asking tom a question. sorry.
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Tom says in post 292 above:
Tom said: The apostles spent three years living and working with Jesus during his Gospel Ministry. They were eyewitness to all that took place, including the many Sabbath debates, which led to the cross.
And what said of the Apostles as Jesus talked to them just before He Ascended to the right hand of God:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
He still had to "open their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. " Then promised the gift of the Spirit which would empower them in their sancitified living.
You can not ignor what God said to Paul that He would explain what He had seen of Him and what He would show him. The wording shows that their are things that had not been shown to others, does it not????
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Tom says in post 292 above:
Tom said: The apostles spent three years living and working with Jesus during his Gospel Ministry. They were eyewitness to all that took place, including the many Sabbath debates, which led to the cross.
And what said of the Apostles as Jesus talked to them just before He Ascended to the right hand of God:
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
He still had to "open their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. " Then promised the gift of the Spirit which would empower them in their sancitified living.
You can not ignor what God said to Paul that He would explain what He had seen of Him and what He would show him. The wording shows that their are things that had not been shown to others, does it not????
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