The Reformed Sabbath

bob_2 · 10-10-10 1:09 am

Tom, what is find are these texts:

John 5: 16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."

The word "rest" means to complete. God doesn't get tired and didn't stop working, maybe creating, but He nor His Son were tired for "rest".

Matthew 12: 3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Then look at Luke 24:44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Eph 2: 11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

bob_2 · 10-10-10 1:13 am

The barrier that Jesus is talking about is circumcision and the Sabbath. Those were the two things making a barrier between Jews and Gentiles. He fulfilled by becoming "our Peace". Saturday or Sunday are usually the meeting days because of our societal weekend. The congregation determines the meeting day, but it is not the Gospel, there is no day mandated that you can show me in the NT/NC.

tom_norris · 10-10-10 11:23 am

Bob, your proof texting methodology is worthless. You don’t understand what the NT is teaching, much less what Jesus or Paul are saying about Judaism and the church.

This “dividing wall” or barrier is OT Judaism, which includes circumcision, Sabbath keeping, and Temple worship, etc.

The “new man” is a Christian, (either Jew or Gentile). He has been brought near to God through the Gospel and the church. He is now, by faith, part of the New Covenant, “citizens” of spiritual Israel, even a spiritual Jew.

Eph. 4:17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

Eph. 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

Eph. 4:19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

Eph. 4:20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,

Eph. 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,

Those that have been taught the Gospel correctly, will understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath and everything else. The problem for the church today, (meaning every denomination), is that ALL have been “taught” a false Gospel, by a legion of organized and powerful Gentile wolves. Thus, their theology, and their organizational system, and their “works” and praise are nothing more than “wretched” Gentile ignorance, full of error and myth.

The doctrine of the Sabbath is a “quick test” to see who is paying attention to Jesus and who is not. Those who claim Sunday the NC Sabbath are just as wrong as those that embrace the 7th day, Schoolmaster Sabbath, like the SDA’s, or the “Every Day” Sabbath of the confused “No Sabbath” crowd. Such Gentile foolishness is fatal, unless there is “zealous repentance.”

There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath for the church. The sooner this theological fact is comprehended and admitted, the better for all concerned.

Anyone who thinks Christ, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Reformed Sabbath, eliminated the weekly, 7th day Sabbath for the church, does not understand the Bible or the Gospel correctly. And few have made this error, which is why millions go to church every week, and have been for the entire history of the church.

Today, as we look around, it is clear that no church or denomination teaches a correct Gospel, Judgment, or Sabbath. NONE. Least of all the SDA’s that claim to be the religious experts about such matters. This is a dangerous situation that demands action.

There is a reason why the last church, Laodicea, is the worst church of all seven periods. They are full of error. And it is the public preaching of the genuine Gospel, as well as the correct doctrine of the Sabbath and the Judgment, that exposes how bad things really are. Thus, Gospel truth will provide for a dramatic and final reformation in the church, just before the great Tribulation.

Rev 18 shows this future time when the final Gospel Reformation of the church will take place. THIS is why the Advent Movement exists. But the SDA’s have failed to do the will of God, and thus they are self destructing for all to see. They must repent of their false views of the Gospel, Judgment, and the Sabbath or be condemned. Everyone in Laodicea must also do the same thing or be lost.

Matt. 13:40 “So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Matt. 13:41 “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

Matt. 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt. 13:43 “Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 10-10-10 12:28 pm

Tom, I am tired of see individuals that can't produce a defense of thise theory or Doctrine quoting text as you do like Matt 13:40 to prove you point and essentially condemning your opposition without proving your point.

EGW even covers her bases by saying some of our greatest lights will go out without pointing to the light that will go out.

Tom I am not the only one that has asked you for this answer. You mercilessly knock the tSDA down, and you try to wear the cloak of reform, but I believe it is in name only.

New Covenant Theology is rather new but have numerous scholars, like John Reisinger, Jon Zens, Fred Zaspel, Tom Wells, Gary Long, Geoff Volker, and Michael W. Adams. Where are those other than yourself that support Reformed Sabbatarianism?

tom_norris · 10-11-10 10:07 am

Bob said: Tom, I am tired of seeing individuals that can't produce a defense of their theory or Doctrine quoting text as you do like Matt 13:40, to prove your point and essentially condemning your opposition without proving your point.

Tom said: You are in no position to criticize anyone for their views or their hermeneutic. You are not qualified to make such judgments. Sorry.

Moreover, you have not come close to defending your strange Every Day Sabbath, which was correctly rejected by church way back in the 2nd century. In fact, it is nothing more than a lame excuse to attack and reject the weekly Sabbath of the church, and thus it is just one more “stumbling block” of false doctrine that will be fatal in the Judgment. (See Matt 13:40).

Bob said: EGW even covers her bases by saying some of our greatest lights will go out without pointing to the light that will go out.

Tom said: I have no idea what you are saying or why? Such an incoherent remark makes no sense.

Bob said: Tom I am not the only one that has asked you for this answer.

Tom said: I have no idea what you are asking?

Bob said: You mercilessly knock the tSDA down, and you try to wear the cloak of reform, but I believe it is in name only.

Tom said: Ha! Who cares what you believe? Not me. You are not a scholar or a theologian, and your views are amateurish nonsense and so too are your criticisms. I suggest that you go find another site where your strange views are welcome. But this mythical doctrine is NEVER going to be welcome here.

In fact, I have already warned you before your Sabbatical t that you would have already been thrown off JR’s site because you have an anti-Sabbatarian, anti-nomian, anti-Gospel agenda that is not about reform, but about the destruction of the Advent Movement. Such posters were warned a few times and then locked out. This is what is going to happen to you if you keep this up.

So you are getting close to taking another Sabbatical if you don’t calm down and play nice.

Bob said: New Covenant Theology is rather new but have numerous scholars, like John Reisinger, Jon Zens, Fred Zaspel, Tom Wells, Gary Long, Geoff Volker, and Michael W. Adams. Where are those other than yourself that support Reformed Sabbatarianism?

Tom said: We have gone over this before. Did you forget? Dr. Ford supports the Gospel Sabbath; so stop pretending that no scholar in the world understands this doctrine. Dr. Ford, a world-class scholar, has understood this point for many years, and I learned it from him. Thus the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath is based directly on the teaching of the NT, with the strong support from this well-known and serious Gospel scholar.

Moreover, this group that you now follow, is hardly original or united. They seem to have all kinds of problems. Here is a site that attacks them as “ imposters, pretenders, and liars.”

http://www.newcovenanttheology.com/

Thus, Gary Anderson’s site, which claims to have the correct view of NCT goes on to say:

The guys like Reisinger and Downing are losers in the most important race ever run. They don't have the gospel, they don't care about the gospel and they don't represent the gospel. They have law, they care about law and they represent law.
--------------------------------------------

I don’t know what they are fighting about, nor do I want to get involved. No doubt some are trying to search for truth, which is not easy. So I understand what they are going through. But this group is hardly ready for prime time.

But if what you are saying represents their views, then spare me their confusion. Their views are NOT going to be part of the final Gospel proclamation, especially as it relates to the Gospel Sabbath.

However, if you like to follow these scholars, then leave this site and go post on their Forums and blogs. No problem. Good bye.

In fact, why not find one of these apologists that think like you and send him over here to see if he can do any better than you have. No doubt they have never heard of this NEW Gospel Sabbath that we are discussing. Few have. So it would be interesting to see how different people react to this very different view of the NC Sabbath.

But regardless you have lost this debate my friend, whether you accept it or not. Sorry.

Tom Norris for genuine Sabbath Reform

tom_norris · 11-02-10 8:48 pm

Bob, I finally did some research into NCT. What I found was not good.

Although the authors of this confusion claim to deal with the “vexing question of whether Sabbath law applies to Christians,” they are really nothing more than diehard anti-Sabbatarians.

These guys have a problem, not with the Moral law, but with the Sabbath. This is what they are all about, like so many over the years. They are very confused and wrong about many things, starting with their lazy and dishonest hermeneutic that seem to ignore and deny large portions of scripture they don’t want to take into account.

Like so many incompetent, biased pastors, they ignore systematic theology in order to focus on some obscure passages to determine the outcome. Such people most always end up seeing what they want to see. Rarely what the Bible is actually saying.

These guys want to see the Sabbath, on any day, go away, and they don’t seem to mind violating the Protestant Hermeneutic to make their anti-Sabbatarian case.

This is what they did with the Sabbath in their introduction to New Covenant Theology; see page 12.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Covenant-Theo … 1928965113

But others have also discovered their real, anti-Sabbatarian agenda.

In fact, after R C Sproul attacked them for being against the Moral law, they wrote a rebuttal, which defended 90% of the 10 Commandments. They like them all, EXCEPT for the Sabbath. Here is their real problem, and the point of NCT.

However, their position that only 10% of the Moral law has been abolished falls flat. It is absurd, illogical, and full of bias and sloppy hermeneutics. Let all beware the error and double-talk of these so-called theologians.

During this debate with Sproul, they revealed their thinking about how they really view the Sabbath.

In fact, they have made the classic mistake of thinking that only 90% of the Commandments are valid in the NT. What an amateur move!

I guess they forgot to read about the REFORMED SABBATH of Jesus, in all four Gospels, before they launched their worthless theory?

How can grown men, who claim to be Bible scholars, be so uneducated and wrong about the NT? Amazing. Perhaps their Bible is different from all others?

Here is what they said about the Sabbath. I suggest you read the entire link as they go through each of the 10 commandments, claiming to follow all of them, EXCEPT THE SABBATH. They are only against the 4th Commandment. What does that tell you? If the Moral law is abolished, as the anti-Sabbatarians claim, then why do they also say that 90% of the Commandments are still binding?

So they are great anti-Sabbatarians, full of double-talk, which is why you like them so much. But their views are so easily overturned that a child could do it. At least one that can read the Gospels.

Watch as John G. Reisinger answered a pointed question about the (Sunday) Sabbath from Sproul:

Sproul said: Four: Do you believe and teach that a Christian is duty bound to obey the fourth commandment - "Keep the Sabbath" - see Exodus 20:8-11.

Reisinger said: I believe and teach that Christ himself is our Sabbath and we "keep Sabbath with God" when we truly rest in Christ's finished work of atonement.

See our booklet, The Believer's Sabbath (Frederick, MD: New Covenant Media, 2002). I believe the Sabbath was the ceremonial sign of the Mosaic covenant (Exod. 31:14-18)…

Sproul said: The catch question that is often posed is this: "Do you believe that the Ten Commandments written with the finger of God upon the Tables of Stone are the rule of life for a Christian today?"

Reisinger said: Our reply is this: "We believe that the Ten Commandments, as they are interpreted and applied by our Lord and his apostles in the New Testament Scriptures, are a real and essential part of our rule of life."

According to Morton Smith's stated definition (page 10), the very most that I can be called is a 1/10 antinomian.

The heart of the issue with New Covenant Theology and myself concerning the Ten Commandments boils down to whether the Fourth commandment, the Sabbath, is an eternal, unchanging, moral law, or the ceremonial sign of the covenant God made with Israel at Sinai (Exod. 31:14-17).

As I understand it, the Sabbath alone is your real point of difference with New Covenant Theology. That one commandment alone is our only point of disagreement.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/jgr/index074.htm

So this so called NC crowd only has a problem with one of the 10 Commandments! Not the other nine. How interesting, and how absurd! This sounds like the same garbage that Richard Fredericks and Ratzlaff fell into. I thought it sounded familiar.

Such confusion and double talk is easily refuted by anyone familiar with the teaching of Christ in the Gospels. Jesus’ teaching about the active, 7th day, Sabbath IS clearly related to the 4th commandment, and thus ALL 10 Commandments are represented and made part of the Law of Christ in the NC.

So these guys are very wrong, and so too anyone, who tries to pretend that Jesus does not teach a Sabbath for the church. He does it in every Gospel. Over and over. If there were 5 or 6 Gospels, his Gospel Sabbath would be in those as well.

For more on the NCT:

http://www.reformationireland.com/artic … eology.htm

http://www.biblelighthouse.com/covenants/nct.htm

http://www.theopedia.com/New_Covenant_Theology

http://newcovenanttheology.org/

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/c … theol.html

http://www.newcovenanttheology.com/

http://www.angelfire.com/ca/DeafPreterist/compare.html

http://ids.org/?page_id=10

http://www.amazon.com/New-Covenant-Theo … 1928965113

http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreine … Zaspel.pdf

http://www.soundofgrace.com/

http://www.rbtr.org/owensdecaloguebarcellos.pdf

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/1181997

The Completion of Sabbath Reform

The final understanding, and the completion of Sabbath Reform, will come from the community that has the most knowledge and experience with the doctrine of the Two Covenants and the Sabbath. This is the SDA Denomination. They have over 150 years of dealing with this complex and “vexing” issue of the Two Covenants and the Sabbath.

Not only did they write, argue and debate these complex issues, they built up a religious empire based on these specific theological points. No modern denomination has promoted the Sabbath more successfully than the SDA’s, and it is going to take more than some sloppy theology to overturn this great SDA Fundamental.

In fact, Uriah Smith and the SDA’s invented a new and unique interpretation about the Moral law and the Two Covenants, (in order to protect their doctrine of the Sabbath). No one else has since embraced it. And for good reason, it is very wrong.

But the point here is to understand that the SDA’s have been dealing with the Sabbath and how it fits into the NT, long before this modern theory of NCT was invented.

Any theologian that wants to be an expert about such doctrines, (like this NCT group), must first understand the interesting and complex history of the SDA’s.

Here is a treasure trove of theological debate and knowledge about the Two Covenants and the Sabbath that is very instructive in the quest for truth. This rich history not only includes what they were saying, but also what their opponents, like D. M. Canright were saying in rebuttal. Canright is the greatest and most published of all the anti-Sabbatarians, and his work must also be understood by anyone who seriously wants to enter the Sabbath debate.

The SDA’s were self-proclaimed experts about the Sabbath and the Two Covenants, and everyone can learn from their successes and mistakes, the latter of which, almost destroyed them in 1888, and even now.

Today, few SDA’s know that the 1888 debate focused on the Two Covenants and the definition of the law and the Gospel. People don’t realize that the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, as understood by SDA’s, was under great attack from within the Denomination, and so too was the way that Smith had defined the Two Covenants.

Here was a very destructive fight over the Sabbath that was never settled or finished. Only when the SDA’s correctly understand this epic debate and repent for being so wrong about the Two Covenants and the OC Sabbath, can they move forward to complete Sabbath Reform by embracing the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath.

1888 & the Gospel Sabbath

The SDA’s concluded that not only was the Sunday Sabbath wrong, but that 7th day Sabbath Reform, must first take place before the 2nd Coming could occur. This was their post Millerite mission and their primary doctrinal message. Sunday was the Mark of the Beast, which must be shunned by all in the last days. It was a false Sabbath for the church.

Thus, the theology of the 3rd Angels Message featured the 7th day Sabbath. This is what the SDA’s were all about, as they set out to rehabilitate the 4th Commandment and correct the very popular and almost universal Sunday error.

Although the SDA’s promoted some other unique points, like the State of the Dead, the Sabbath was their main doctrine above all others. (The IJ would remain in the background, until the late 20th century.)

Progressive Understanding of the Sabbath

While the SDA’s became the self-appointed defenders of the 7th day Sabbath, they did not fully or correctly understand this doctrine at first, nor do they still have it correct today. The 7th day Sabbath is not an easy doctrine to understand, and it caused great problems for those in England that tried to promote it.

http://www.exlibris.org/nonconform/engd … rians.html

But Seventh day Adventism was an American religion. Thus they were free to promote the Sabbath in an organized and public manner, which was not permitted in England.

In spite of such religious freedom, the Sabbath doctrine turned out to be a work in progress for the SDA’s, even though few, if any were ever taught this point.

In fact, Ellen White was not an expert on the Sabbath as many assume. Even though she had spiritual gifts, as a Methodist, she was a Sunday keeper for many years, like all the Millerites, and others, except a few SDB’s. Then she switched to the 7th day, thanks to the influence and teaching of Joseph Bates and James White.

But even then, she was still not correct, and neither were any of the SDA’s, because they all observed the Sabbath from 6 pm to 6 pm for about a decade. However, when J. N. Andrews pointed out that this view of the Sabbath was not correct, a revision took place, thanks to more Bible study. James White admitted that Andrews, -not Bates or Ellen White, was correct.

So acting on more information from Bible study, Ellen White and all the SDA’s revised their Sabbath doctrine again, and switched to Sundown to sundown. This 1850’s Sabbath revision is still followed by the SDA church to this very day. (This is why they have “sunset calendars.”)

Ellen White has a clear track record of changing and revising her view of the Sabbath, even as she pushed hard for another revision during the 1888 debates. But few know the real story about what took place. Few realize that the SDA Sabbath doctrine received a great wound at this time. (This is because the debate was covered up by the leaders, and remains so today).

The 1888 debates were such a great failure, that there was no possibility of further revision to the Sabbath. In spite of Ellen White’s best efforts, it never happened because the SDA Pharisees, led by Uriah Smith, refused to make any revisions to the Two Covenants, or to any doctrine.

Smith was certain that Waggoner’s view of the Two Covenants and the Gospel, were wrong, and so too Ellen White for supporting him.

Many SDA’s have no idea that during the 1880’s, a serious Sabbath challenge occurred from within the Denomination by EJ Waggoner. This is why it became such a serious problem for the Denomination. (And why the 20th century leaders hid this debate, keeping it off limits.)

The Battle Creek leaders refused to take Waggoner’s views seriously because they thought they had a fully correct position on the Sabbath. Therefore, that was the end of the matter for Smith, Butler, Canright, and many others. After all, when you’re right, you’re right. As far as they were concerned, there was no room for improvement to their Sabbath doctrine.

However, Ellen White knew better, even as she challenged the leaders to deal with Waggoner’s “new light” and keep pushing truth forward. But the leaders rejected Ellen White’s calls to honestly study the issues. They refused to consider that they might be wrong about the law or the Gospel, much less the Sabbath. It was a hopeless situation.

As a result, Ellen White condemned the leaders, specifically Uriah Smith, for his dishonest debating tactics and incorrect views. She called him a Pharisee and warned that the SDA’s were repeating the same mistakes as the 1st century Jews.

As a consequence of the failed 1888 debates, there was no further Sabbath Reform for the SDA’s. Even the gains that had been made were almost wiped out, as the Battle Creek Empire collapsed into a great anti-Sabbatarian schism.

The vast majority of SDA’s no longer supported the 7th day Sabbath or Traditional Adventism. This is why the leaders retreated to Takoma Park. To start over in a place that did not hate them and their OC Sabbath.

The Great SDA Sabbath Debate

It is easy to see how Ellen White would view this modern discussion about the Sabbath. Why? Because the 1888 debates were all about the Sabbath. She was there, right in the middle of it, so we can see how she reacted then, and apply it to our discussion today.

Few people understand that when Waggoner rejected Smith’s view of the Law in Galatians, (which he learned from Luther); he was directly attacking the great Sabbath doctrine of the SDA’s.

Here was the theological problem: If Waggoner’s view of the “schoolmaster” Sabbath was correct, then the SDA’s had the WRONG Sabbath doctrine.

THIS is why Uriah Smith, and the other leaders, became so outraged and upset. They did not expect, nor did they appreciate, one of their own making such an anti- law, anti-Sabbatarian attack on the primary doctrine of the SDA’s. It made no sense. How could an SDA even question the Sabbath doctrine?

However, when the leaders asked Ellen White to censor and silence Waggoner, she refused, even as she pushed the debate out into the open for everyone to see. She wanted the church to study the issues of the Two Covenants and the Gospel, not censor such discussion.

Such a move by Ellen White stunned and further angered the leaders, literally causing George Butler, the President, to have a nervous breakdown. He was so upset about this confusion over the Sabbath that he could not even attend the 1888 General Conference.

Thus an epic, divisive, and disastrous Sabbath debate was unleashed within the Denomination that is not well known or understood today. It is still causing great damage and schism. It can only be stopped when the SDA’s repent of their false view of the Two Covenants and stop fighting the Gospel.

Uriah Smith was correct to understand that the heart of the 1888 debate was about the Sabbath. If the SDA’s had this doctrine wrong, then their whole mission would be in jeopardy, and they no longer had a reason to exist. If the Sabbath fell, so too did the SDA church.

To make matters worse, the Sunday Reform Movement was close to obtaining a National Sunday Law, which the SDA’s had long predicted as part of their Sabbatarian doctrine. Thus their eschatology was also wrapped up in the outcome of any Sabbath debate. If the Sabbath was wrong, then so too their view of last day events and the Time of Trouble.

So the stakes could not be higher, which is why the leaders reacted so vehemently against Waggoner’s view of the “Schoolmaster Sabbath.” There was great cause for alarm.

Waggoner’s View of the Sabbath:

Waggoner claimed that the 7th day Sabbath of the SDA’s was NOT supported by the NT. He refuted the SDA interpretation that the “Added Law” in Galatians was only “ceremonial,” as the SDA’s taught. He concluded that the “schoolmaster” law in Galatians was a reference to the Moral law, which included the Sabbath.

Gal. 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

Gal. 3:18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Gal. 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Smith and President Butler were both outraged at this challenge to the Sabbath- from within the Denomination.

It was clear to their minds that Waggoner’s theology was in direct conflict with the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath. For if it were true, the church is “no longer under” the 7th day Sabbath as the SDA’s had been so loudly proclaiming for the past 40 years. So it could not possibly be true.

Consequently, they countered with the typical SDA view that claimed the “schoolmaster” law was only a reference to the CERIMONIAL law and to the ceremonial Sabbaths; and not to the weekly Sabbath of the 4th Commandment.

This (incorrect) view was reinforced by claiming that Col 2: 16 was not a reference to the Sabbath of the Moral law, but only to the ceremonial Sabbaths.

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=242

Waggoner, the son of a leading SDA Pastor, was not trying to be anti-Sabbatarian. He had been raised an SDA, and thus he knew that Sunday was false doctrine. But he had been reading Luther’s great Commentary on Galatians, and thus he was trying to correct what he saw as a Gospel error relating to the theology of the Two Covenants.

While Waggoner was sincerely looking for more Gospel truth, the leaders were not. They thought they had all the truth necessary, and thus they became very defensive, protecting the Moral law and the great Sabbath pillar at all costs.

The Battle Creek leaders saw no reason, and had no room, to compromise with Waggoner. They were certain he was very wrong. Otherwise, what had they been preaching all these years? It was unthinkable that their Sabbath doctrine could be wrong.

Waggoner’s theological insight was not only upsetting, it created a firestorm of controversy for the SDA’s at the very time when the Sunday Reform Movement were pushing forward a National Sunday Law. The very thing that SDA eschatology had predicted! So Waggoner’s timing could not have been worse.

In this highly charged atmosphere of National Sabbath Reform, (meaning the Sunday Sabbath), Waggoner’s new view of the “schoolmaster Sabbath” had a quick and dramatic effect- two years before 1888. Although unintended, it underscored how volatile this debate would become, even foreshadowing the very collapse of the Denomination in Battle Creek that was only a dozen or so years away.

In 1886, D. M. Canright, one of the leading SDA’s, AGREED with Waggoner’s view of the schoolmaster Law and the Two Covenants. This led him to repudiate the 7th day Sabbath, shocking his peers.

At first, Canright resisted Waggoner’s Galatian position, but then, after a face-to-face debate, he realized it was futile. Canright, the best of the SDA debaters, and the man responsible for their tithe doctrine, concluded that the SDA’s were wrong about the Sabbath, the Two Covenants, and everything else.

Once a champion of the 7th Day Sabbath, and on track to become President of the Denomination, Canright now stunned the Denomination and switched sides, embracing the Sunday Sabbath, and attacking the SDA’s and their Sabbath.

This is exactly what Smith and Butler had feared. Waggoner’s new theology would ruin the Sabbath and destroy the mission and the message of the 3rd Angels Message. Canright’s defection only made them more resolute to defend the Sabbath and refute Waggoner’s new Galatian view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._M._Canright

http://members.tripod.com/~Help_for_SDA … right.html

Strangely, Ellen White did not share their fears, even after Canright bolted from the Denomination. She counseled Canright, Smith, and Butler not to overreact, but rather, to study the theological issues in order to find more truth.

In addition, she refused to condemn Waggoner’s new views or even censor him or his very different theology. This further confused and angered the leaders, even as it gave Waggoner, and many others, some hope that Gospel Reform was possible.

While the debate never went far enough, or deep enough, to deal with the Sabbath or eschatology, Ellen White clearly supported Waggoner’s view of the law in Galatians, and the Two Covenants, especially his emphasis on JBF.

She slammed Uriah Smith for rejecting Bible truth and for elevating Law over the Gospel, even as she made it clear that SDA’s have much more to learn about doctrine.

"Let the Law Take Care of Itself "—

The charge that this great emphasis on justification by faith would destroy the authority of God's law was particularly intense during the early months of 1890. This probably arose from the presentations that were being made at the lengthy "Bible School" in Battle Creek that had been called to promote the understanding of justification by faith. It was quite likely that most of these charges were generated by such persons as Uriah Smith and his supporters, who had been the main opposers of Jones and Waggoner (and, more subtly, of Ellen White) at Minneapolis and afterward.

It is significant that Ellen White (no mean defender of the law herself) was not deterred by such suspicions of anti-law sentiments. It was in this context that she made her startling challenge to the law partisans to "let the law take care of itself. We have been at work on the law until we get as dry as the hills of Gilboa. . . . Let us trust in the merits of Jesus" (1888 Materials 557).

She went on to amplify this response: "Some of our brethren have expressed fears that we shall dwell too much upon the subject of justification by faith, but I hope and pray that none will be needlessly alarmed; for there is no danger in presenting this doctrine as it is set forth in the Scriptures. If there had not been a remissness in the past to properly instruct the people of God, there would not now be a necessity of calling especial attention to it. . . .

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/wws/salv11.htm

While Ellen White battled the leaders over the definition of the Gospel, and the Law in Galatians, the Gospel Sabbath was lost in the debate. It was never really addressed, much less understood, as Waggoner’s theology inevitably required.

The leaders refused to consider that their Sabbath doctrine had error. Thus they blocked all roads to serious doctrinal discussion and reform. They flat out refused to consider that Waggoner’s view of the Two Covenants and the “schoolmaster Sabbath” could be correct.

In response, Ellen White accused the leaders of being like the Jews.

"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God. For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people." 1888, p. 166.

Ellen White bemoaned the lost opportunity for the SDA’s to find more truth about the Sabbath and the Gospel. She was saddened to realize that Waggoner’s “New Light” was not going to be accepted, nor would her calls for study result in confession or reform, at least not from the majority of the top leaders.

The 1888 debates would lead, not to greater Gospel insight and an improved Sabbath doctrine, but to great schism. The Battle Creek Empire came crashing down as a result of this unresolved debate over the law, Gospel, and the Sabbath.

Listen to Ellen White:

"I have been shown that Jesus will reveal to us precious old truths in a new light, if we are ready to receive them; but they must be received in the very way in which the Lord shall choose to send them. With humble, softened hearts, with respect and love for one another, search your Bibles.”

“The light may not come in accordance with plans that men may devise. But all who reverence the Word of God just as it reads, all who do His will to the best of their ability, will know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, notwithstanding the efforts of the enemy to confuse minds and to make uncertain the Word of God.”

“God calls every man’s attention to His living Oracles. Let no one quench the Spirit of God by wresting the Scriptures, by putting human interpretations upon His inspired Word; and let no one pursue an unfair course, keep in the dark, not willing to open their ears to hear and yet free to comment and quibble and sow their doubts of that which they will not candidly take time to hear.”

"Let men be careful how they handle the Word of inspiration, which has been preserved for ages through the power of God. If men were themselves controlled by the Holy Spirit they would bring heart and soul to the task, searching and digging in the mines of God for precious ore. They would be eager to come into harmony with the writings of inspired men.

If they are not controlled by the Spirit of God, they will give evidence of this by caviling over His word and by sitting in judgment upon its teachings just as did the Jews."

1888, p. 167.
-------------------------------------------------------

The 1888 debates, like Glacier view a century later, was a debacle for the Advent Movement. The leaders would not be honest with Waggoner’s theology any more than they were with Dr. Ford’s. They stonewalled and double-talked; slandered and misrepresented the facts, even as they laughed at the impossibility of his views, thinking him a heretic.

In fact, just like Glacier View, the Battle Creek leaders claimed that Waggoner’s views were AGAINST the teachings of Ellen White, and therefore he must cease and desist. However, even though this may have been true, Ellen White was alive and she refused to let this argument stand. Only the Bible could settle any theological argument, she said, not Ellen White, and thus she worked hard to push for more Bible study and public debate between the two opposing sides.

Ellen White paid a huge price for supporting Waggoner’s Gospel Reforms. She too was ridiculed, even as Uriah Smith no longer considered her inspired or even sane. He told her she had no idea what she was doing, and she told him that he was in the “dark,” heading for perdition, and that she had been “shown” that Waggoner’s views on the Two Covenants correct. But Smith would not listen.

Things ended very badly. Ellen White and Uriah Smith became theological enemies for the rest of their lives. She even supported his termination from the Review for his refusal to embrace Waggoner’s reforming views. Thus he died a confused and legalistic man, estranged from the Review and Ellen White. He never understood the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath.

Instead of Gospel Reform in 1888, the SDA’s self-destructed.

There was no Sabbath Reform following 1888. The leaders refused to admit that their theology had any error or needed any correction, (just like today). Thus Ellen White was removed from Battle Creek, separated from Waggoner and both exiled far away. Battle Creek became a hotbed of division and pluralism due to the unresolved debate that had a life of its own.

Within 12 years after 1888, many SDA’s no longer believed in Traditional Adventism or the OC Sabbath, or even the IJ. Thanks to Waggoner, Canright, and even Ellen White, there had been a paradigm shift taking place in Battle Creek, AWAY FROM THE OC SABBATH, with the majority of SDA’s no longer viewing the law or the Sabbath like Uriah Smith and the SDA’s had traditionally taught.

Even the fear of Sunday laws were rejected by many, (as the Sunday Laws faded in the late 1890’s), and the SDA leaders were literally run out of town, even losing the great Battle Creek San to Kellogg, as well as their National Health Magazine, in the process.

Traditional Adventism had suffered a critical blow. The eschatology of the Three Angels Messages was no longer credible or plausible, and thus the SDA’s had to retreat to Takoma Park to protect their eroding platform of questionable doctrines.

The Great 1888 Cover-Up

The SDA’s failed to complete their mission of Sabbath Reform in Battle Creek, which seemed to be going backwards after 1888. Once in Takoma Park, they vowed to cover up the great debate and pretend it never happened. Then they embraced the late Uriah Smiths view of things, and made him into a hero, when in fact he was the evil villain, who fought against Ellen White and stopped Gospel Reform in Battle Creek.

This great deception would allow the re-emergence of Traditional Adventism in Takoma Park, which would lead to a repeat of the 1888 debacle in 1980, at Glacier View. Which in turn, generated another great anti-Sabbatarian schism that can still be seen today. Had the church learned the proper lessons from Battle Creek, Glacier View, with its great schism, could have been avoided, and so too the great evil of pluralism.

How can a church learn anything from history when it is hidden and suppressed? The 20th century leaders plotted and planned how best to cover up the great 1888 debate, which had almost ruined the church, and thus they manipulated and falsified the writings of Ellen White to agree with Smith’s legalistic theology, even though this is the opposite of what took place.

In short, it was no accident that the church was denied the facts about the 1888 debate. The 20th century leaders went on to deceive and misrepresent SDA history and theology, 24/7 and this great fraud only led to more confusion and another great schism that started in 1980. Which is still ongoing to this very day. The blind were leading the blind all these years, which explains why the SDA’s are stuck in a great ditch for all to see.

How did the leaders cover up the 1888 debate?

The GC purchased the White Estate and took control and possession of all the documents, including many that gave a detailed account of the 1888 debates. The leaders censored and hid thousands of documents from the church and from the scholars that explained what took place in Battle Creek. In short, they fabricated a false version of the 1888 history for the modern church to embrace. Even though they were caught “red handed,” in 1979, they still refuse to confess or correct the record.

Thus the White Estate has been a criminal enterprise all these years; guilty of conducting a massive (publishing) fraud that is against their charter and against the law. Ellen White never gave the church leaders any permission to hide her words, much less so that they could change her views and falsify church history. In hindsight, Arthur White is a great liar and con man and so too all those, like Froom, who participated in this great fraud, which is still ongoing today.

There is no excuse for such gross dishonesty and manipulation. All should condemn the White Estate, and understand that they are a big reason why the SDA church is self-destructing, and why there has been no forward progress to complete Sabbath Reform and update eschatology.

Ellen White Condemns the SDA’s

Note below how Ellen White subordinates the law to the Gospel and how she refutes that the SDA’s “should preach the law.” She was trying to promote a paradigm shift to the Gospel Sabbath. She was trying to bring the SDA’s into the NC. But she failed.

Ellen White said:

You will meet with those who will say, "You are too much excited over this matter. You are too much in earnest. You should not be reaching for the righteousness of Christ, and making so much of that. You should preach the law."

As a people, we have preached the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboa that had neither dew nor rain.

We must preach Christ in the law, and there will be sap and nourishment in the preaching that will be as food to the famishing flock of God.

We must not trust in our own merits at all, but in the merits of Jesus of Nazareth. Our eyes must be anointed with eye-salve. We must draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to us, if we come in his own appointed way. O that you may go forth as the disciples did after the day of Pentecost, and then your testimony will have a living ring, and souls will be converted to God.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, March 11, 1890, paragraph 13
Title: Christ Prayed for Unity Among His Disciples
-------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless of Ellen White’s high standing in the church; the leaders would not listen to her. They could not elevate the Gospel over the Moral Law. They were so legalistic that they could not even understand the Gospel, or the Gospel Sabbath, which was trying to emerge and shift the paradigm forward to the 4th Angels Message.

Even though Ellen White urged them to move forward and embrace “additional light” they preferred darkness and error. Listen to Ellen White’s warning to the SDA’s:

"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God.

For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people."

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 166.

Ellen White was certain that Waggoner was on to something big, but the leaders would not budge an inch. They were so defensive, dishonest, and stubborn that she could hardly believe such a rude reaction to what she considered “additional light” from the Word about the Sabbath.

No doubt she remembered how serious and civil the debate was between Andrews and Bates about the time to begin and end the Sabbath, and how truth was discovered and unity prevailed. None of that happened during 1888.

Ellen White was certain that there was more for SDA’s to understand about the Sabbath.

"God will give additional light, and old truths will be recovered and replaced in the framework of truth; and wherever the laborers go, they will triumph...

RH Extra, Dec. 23, 1890.

But her words had no effect on Smith and many others. While the people were caught in the middle of this epic struggle for truth, many sided with Waggoner, even as the leaders refused to co-operate at all.

Ellen White concluded that the SDA’s had chosen their own Sabbath traditions over Bible truth. As a result, there would be no Sabbath Reform for the Denomination, only Sabbath destruction and a great schism.

"Even Seventh-day Adventists are in danger of closing their eyes to truth as it is in Jesus, BECAUSE IT CONTRADICTS SOMETHING WHICH THEY HAVE TAKEN FOR GRANTED AS TRUTH, BUT WHICH THE HOLY SPIRIT TEACHES IS NOT TRUTH."

TM 70, 71.

"What is the message to be given at this time? It is the third angel’s message. But that light which is to fill the whole earth with its glory has been despised by some who claim to believe the present truth.

Be careful how you treat it. Take off the shoes from off your feet; for you are on holy ground. Beware how you indulge the attributes of Satan, and pour contempt upon the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

I know not but some have even now gone too far to return and to repent."

TM 89, 90.
--------------------------------------------------

Uriah Smith was one of those that “went too far to return and repent.” And so today, there are many who are likewise so committed to his errors, that they cannot understand the Gospel or the Gospel Sabbath. Adventist Reform is beyond their ability to comprehend, and so too the Gospel. Pity for them.

Today, the SDA church is mired in so much false doctrine and fabricated history that they may have “gone too far.” This billion-dollar Denomination is presently based on a false Gospel and Judgment, as well as the wrong, OC Sabbath. They are in the “dark,” corrupt and dishonest, with no intention to repent and change course. Just like the tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Jews that killed Christ.

Missed Opportunity to Reform the Sabbath

In hindsight, the Battle Creek SDA’s missed a golden opportunity to revise and complete their doctrine of the Sabbath. In fact, because the leaders rejected the Gospel, and clung to the OC Sabbath, many that had embraced Waggoner’s view had no choice but to reject the SDA Sabbath, as well as the IJ, and Tithe.

As a result, many streamed out of the denomination at the turn of the 19th century, including Waggoner, AT. Jones, and even those who were pro-Sabbatarian, like Kellogg, whose wife was a life long SD Baptist.

Had the Battle Creek SDA’s been able to repent of their OC Sabbath and embrace the Gospel Sabbath, they would have baffled their theological enemies and stunned the religious world.

Why? At this time, many churches had joined together to promote the “sacredness” of the Sunday Sabbath. The SDA’s only protested because they had the wrong DAY, not because they ALSO had the wrong view of how to define and act on the Gospel Sabbath.

So the SDA’s only made headlines for the OC, 7th day, Sabbath, but not for the Gospel Sabbath, which was never developed.

The SDA’s managed to get an exclusion for themselves placed into the National Sunday law, (which Bill never passed.) Too bad they were not smart enough to explain to Congress that every church had not only the WRONG DAY, but also the WRONG GOSPEL and the WRONG view of the NC Sabbath.

Such a Sabbath bombshell would not only make the quest for Blue Laws appear needless and absurd, it would also go directly against the very Gospel that has been used to endorse and galvanize the pro Sunday forces in the first place.

In short, the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath would have surprised and astounded all that heard it. It would have upended the Sabbath Reform debate and sent it in a new Gospel direction, condemning and embarrassing all denominations in the process.

Both Congress, and the County, would have been flabbergasted to see the SDA’s roll out the 7th day, active, Gospel Sabbath. It would have made big headlines, because the (Sunday) Sabbath was a hot topic in all the churches and in the press. It was the equivalent of how the 20th century conservatives viewed abortion, and thus many 19th century religious zealots loudly demanded laws to keep Sunday holy and free from work.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm

Today, the Gospel Sabbath is still amazing and shocking to all ears. Not only because it is unknown and so different from all present Sabbath traditions, but because it also represents the theological genius and authority of Christ and his Gospel.

The GS is a perfect solution to the long running Sabbath debate, harmonizing the Two Covenants and underscoring their Semitic nature. This new Lord’s Day doctrine upholds the Moral law, even as it subordinates it to the Gospel, through the Priesthood of all believers and the authority of Christ.

The GS condemns all other Sabbath doctrines, and the false Gospels upon which they rest. Including and especially the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, for which the OC minded SDA’s, must repent.

Let ALL in the SDA Community run from the OC Sabbath, tithe, and the IJ, and REPENT for all such false doctrines promoted by the Adventists and others.

It is time to stop allowing the wolves to lead the sheep. It is time to understand the Gospel and the Reformed, NC, 7th day Sabbath.

Today, the completion of Sabbath Reform will go forward without the SDA’s, (just as the Gospel went forward without the unbelieving Jews). Others will formulate and proclaim the 4th Angels Message and thus the work of the Advent Movement to prepare the church for the great Tribulation, (which has nothing to do with Sunday laws) will continue without these wretched and blind legalists, who know not the Gospel.

Ellen White fully supports such forward progress within the Adventist Apocalyptic, and so too should all that seek truth.

Too bad the SDA’s have been overcome with a “spirit of stupor,” which makes them unable to see or hear truth. It is sad. But eschatology waits for no one, especially not for the disoriented, dishonest, and dysfunctional SDA’s.

It is time, for those few SDA’s that have the capacity to do so, to REPENT and embrace the true Gospel, and the genuine NC Sabbath with both hands. Their failure to honestly deal with the issues will be there doom. Thus many today will remain in the dark, unable to understand truth, just like the Jews.

Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”

Those that have the Spirit, and are honestly searching for truth, will understand the Gospel and discover the Reformed, 7th day, Sabbath of Christ. Those that do not have the Spirit will not understand the doctrine.

Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Luke 10:21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

I hope this helps those that are not too far-gone to repent.

Tom Norris for the 7th day, Active, Gospel Sabbath

tom_norris · 01-17-11 12:03 pm

BJ said: Tom, I have read much of your answers regarding NC Sabbath, and I was surprised to hear this view.

Tom said: The Gospel Sabbath surprised and amazed the Jews, even as it infuriated the 1st century religious leaders who repudiated the Gospel of Christ. None of the Jews had any idea that there could be a new Sabbath doctrine, and thus they were as surprised as the Laodiceans are today.

Mark 1:21 They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.

Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”

Mark 1:28 Immediately the news about Him spread everywhere into all the surrounding district of Galilee.

As it was in the beginning of the church, so too, at the end of the age. Thus it is normative to be surprised about this misunderstood and suppressed Sabbath doctrine, which amazed and divided the Jews and led them to murder Christ.

John 7:43 So a division occurred in the crowd because of Him.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Jesus deliberately used the reformed, Gospel Sabbath to wake up and divide the Jewish Community. This new, controversial doctrine provided the backdrop for his Gospel teachings, even as it reinforced the radical NC doctrine about the Priesthood of all Believers.

Both the 1st century Jews and the Laodiceans have much in common. Both misunderstand God and religion, yet all the while thinking they have 100% truth. Which is why the Sabbath doctrine will once again create controversy, division, and amazement in the New Covenant house of Israel, the church.

Just like in the NT, the REFORMED Sabbath of Christ will accompany the genuine preaching of the Gospel in the last days. Such a Sabbath doctrine is so different from what everyone has been teaching and practicing, that it will shock and stun the religious world, even as it condemns all Laodiceans, from EVERY denomination for having a false religion and a worthless Gospel.

Today, this same Sabbath doctrine that stunned and condemned the Jews, will also condemn the Laodicean church for also being blind to the genuine Gospel teachings of Christ. Thus the correct Sabbath doctrine will divide and separate the faithful and true believers from the many confused pretenders, even as it clarifies the Gospel for all to see.

Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

The way one reacts to Jesus NC Sabbath will determine their fate, just as it did for the 1st century Jews. To embrace Christ and his Gospel is to also embrace his very different doctrine of the, active, 7th day Sabbath. To repudiate it, as did the Jews, is to reject the Gospel and forfeit Eternal Life.

BJ said: But, everything I have read about Jesus and the Sabbath shows that Jesus is trying to bring proper understanding of the OC Sabbath to the Jews, not reform the Sabbath.

Tom said: Today, there is much myth, error, and confusion in the church. What all have been taught about the Sabbath, and many other doctrines, is very wrong, regardless of the denomination. This is why Jesus views the last church as the worst of all church periods, even as he called them all wretched, blind, and naked.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

I repeat: both the Sunday keepers and the SDA Sabbatarians are shockingly wrong, which is why the Laodicean Message has no exclusions for anyone. All are wrong about the law and the Gospel, including the Sabbath. None are following the words of Christ, nor do they understand or embrace his doctrine of the Gospel or the Sabbath. Which is why all in the last church are told to repent and embrace Gospel Reform.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

So all are going to have a choice to make about the Gospel and the Sabbath. All the Sunday keepers, as well as the Sabbatarians, and even those that embrace the allegorical, Every Day Sabbath fiction, must REPENT and only embrace the 7th day, guilt-free, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

Jesus & the New Testament

Jesus is a New Testament figure, which is why all four Gospels are placed in the New Testament. Go check your Bible, or any Bible, and see for yourself that all four Gospels are separated from the Old Testament and placed in the New Testament. This has always been the case and so it is today. Jesus represents the New Covenant, not the Old.

Consequently, when Christ’s’ ministry started, he immediately began preaching the New Covenant Gospel to the Jews, which included his REFORMED, active Sabbath, which caused an instant sensation. Thus Jesus was “trying to bring a proper understanding of the Gospel of God” to the Jews first, and then, through his apostles, to the Gentiles, which included his teaching about the Sabbath.

Jesus was not trying to show how the OC Sabbath was to be obeyed. This was something that John the Baptist would have promoted. His reforming message was a call to better obedience and law keeping. Do not confuse the Old Covenant theology of John the Baptist with the Gospel teachings of Christ. They are very different.

Matt. 3:4 Now John himself had a garment of camel’s hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.

Matt. 3:5 Then Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the district around the Jordan;

Matt. 3:6 and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.

Matt. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matt. 3:8 “Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance;

Matt. 3:9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,

‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

Matt. 3:10 “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Luke 3:10 And the crowds were questioning him, saying, “Then what shall we do?”

Luke 3:11 And he would answer and say to them, “The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise.”

Luke 3:12 And some tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?”

Luke 3:13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than what you have been ordered to.”

Luke 3:14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

John the B preached the law, not the Gospel. He did not promote salvation by faith, but fidelity and obedience to the law. His view of the Sabbath was very different from what Jesus taught.

Jesus Greater Than John the Baptist:

Jesus was doing something much greater than John the B. He was bringing in Gospel Righteousness and creating the Church as the New Israel of God. He was shifting the Old Covenant into the New, even as the bloody cross would forever immortalize his NC Gospel teachings, which included the reformed, 7th day Sabbath for his church.

Jesus dramatically overturned the status quo of Judaism by repudiating the Old Covenant and the Temple, changing the Priesthood and reforming the Sabbath. He also created the church, where all of his Gospel followers could now work on the Reformed Sabbath without guilt.

Thus the “Priestly Sabbath” in the OT became the basis for the NC Sabbath. All that followed Jesus, the new High Priest, are now exempt from the Old Covenant rules against working on the Sabbath, even as all the demands of the Law have been subordinated to the compassion and mercy of the Gospel.

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Moreover, Jesus claimed that God told him to promote this new and very different view of the Gospel Sabbath. Which led to the charge of blasphemy, and to his death.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Jesus Sabbath teaching, which is the genuine Lord’s Day of the NT, is holy instruction for the church. Forever. And so too many other doctrines as well.

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,

Thus Jesus teaches how we are to relate to God and man, even as he speaks the words of Eternal Life and those who are called Christians.

John 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”

John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

John 6:69 “We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Jesus, the greatest and most authoritative person in either the Old or New Covenant, articulates doctrine for the church, and for all those that follow his Gospel teachings. Which includes his 7th day, Reformed, Gospel Sabbath that is promoted, defended, and explained by Christ in all four Gospels, as recorded by his apostles.

Here is the genuine Sabbath for the New Covenant Church. It is a weekly 7th day doctrine where the Gospel is preached and celebrated, and none are guilty for working on the Sabbath Day. This is the real Lord’s Day. The Gospel Sabbath. It is a very public doctrine that determines who is following the Good Shepherd and paying attention to his words, and who is ignorant of the Gospel.

The Good Shepherd

Although few people know this Gospel fact, the context for the Good Shepherd motif is the Gospel Sabbath and the controversy that this new doctrine caused. The blind man that Jesus healed on the Sabbath naturally wanted to follow Jesus teaching, but the religious leaders disapproved of anyone, even the man who had received his sight, from following Jesus.

John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.

John 9:15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

John 9:17 So they *said to the blind man again, “What do you say about Him, since He opened your eyes?” And he said, “He is a prophet.”

John 9:18 The Jews then did not believe it of him, that he had been blind and had received sight, until they called the parents of the very one who had received his sight,

John 9:19 and questioned them, saying, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? Then how does he now see?”

John 9:20 His parents answered them and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind;

John 9:21 but how he now sees, we do not know; or who opened his eyes, we do not know. Ask him; he is of age, he will speak for himself.”

John 9:22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed Him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.

The healed man refused to denounce Christ and thus he was excommunicated from Judaism for defending the actions of Christ on the Sabbath. This meant he was outside the favor of God, a lost man. But at least he could now see. If being lost means gaining ones sight, then how bad can it be? He was determined to follow Jesus, the Sabbath breaker.

John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.

John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.”

John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes.

John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.

John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”

John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.

After Jesus is informed of his excommunication, he searches for the healed man and reveals himself as the Messiah.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”

John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

It is at this point that Jesus pivots back into the Sabbath debate, calling the Pharisees blind and guilty for not embracing his New Covenant teachings about the Sabbath. He them introduces the Good Shepherd theme, which in the context of the Sabbath debate, meant that those who follow Christ will also follow his active, reformed Sabbath,- where it was not a sin for anyone to work.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

Jesus teaches that those that follow him, the Good Shepherd, will also embrace his Gospel Sabbath. This is exactly what this passage teaches, and so too many others. Any that claim to follow Christ, must do so. Those that reject his Gospel Sabbath are pretenders and robbers. They do not know Christ or his Gospel.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Jesus Gospel teaching, which includes his controversial view of the Sabbath, is holy doctrine for the church. The fact that all in the early church were Jews is beside the point. So too is the NC and the Gospel! Consequently, whether Jew or Gentile, all must embrace and follow the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the NT. This is what it means to be a Christian.

This includes following Jesus doctrine of the 7th day, active Sabbath. This is the only Sabbath for the Church. It cannot be Sunday, nor can it be a 7th day, Pharisaical Sabbath of the Jews or SDA’s, where work is sinful. All today have the wrong Sabbath, and the wrong Gospel, even the SDA’s.

BJ said: Remember, the Pharisees added many of their own rules (not God's) to Sabbath keeping and many other things. This is always what Jesus rejected.

Tom said: First, Jesus supported the OC law as well as the basic instruction of the Jews to keep it. Listen to him make these points.

Matt. 23:1 ¶ Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,

Matt. 23:2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

Matt. 23:3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Matt. 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Matt. 5:18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Jesus knew the law and understood what he was doing. He was not attacking the law, as the Jews thought, but rather, promoting the Gospel, which is higher than the law. But they did not believe him. They choose the law over the Gospel and destroyed themselves in the process.

Second, Jewish law did not permit the healing works Jesus did on the Sabbath. Period. Jesus knew this fact. He was not a Levite, and thus he had no special privileges to work on the Sabbath as they did.

But regardless, the Priests were not healers anyway, and thus, healing was secular work that can only take place on any day-- except the Sabbath. In other words, the work of a 1st century physician, for which they were typically paid, was not permitted on the Sabbath. Healing was not a religious exercise, and thus it was not permitted on the Sabbath, like so many things in OC Judaism.

See: The physician in ancient Israel: his status and function.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article … 89/?page=1

To understand this point, note that many physicians had treated the woman in Mark for a period of 12 years. This resulted in her losing all her money to these primitive doctors, who only made her worse. None of her treatments, for which she paid, were given to her on the Sabbath, as that would have been illegal.

Mark 5:25 A woman who had had a hemorrhage for twelve years,

Mark 5:26 and had endured much at the hands of many physicians, and had spent all that she had and was not helped at all, but rather had grown worse —

Mark 5:27 after hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His cloak.

Mark 5:28 For she thought, “If I just touch His garments, I will get well.”

Jesus, as well as everyone else, knew that the OC law forbids the work of healing on the Sabbath. But he was not trying to follow the Sabbath Law of Moses. He was creating the Gospel Sabbath, which represents a different Covenant and a different priesthood.

Luke 13:10 And He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.

Luke 13:11 And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all.

Luke 13:12 When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your sickness.”

Luke 13:13 And He laid His hands on her; and immediately she was made erect again and began glorifying God.

Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”

While Jesus behavior on the Sabbath was not acceptable in the Old Covenant, he was promoting the New Covenant. Thus his reformed Sabbath is part of the “Law of Christ,” and part of the “obedience of faith” for those that follow the Good Shepherd.

Rom. 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

Millions today go to church every Sunday thinking they are following Christ. But they are not. They are following a false Shepherd, even many wolves in sheep’s clothing. And so too the SDA’s that have the right day, but the wrong, Old Covenant doctrine.

This confusion will not stand. At the end of time, the Gospel will become clear to everyone, and so too the Gospel Sabbath. This is what the SDA’s have been saying for many years. Too bad that they have embraced a false Gospel and a false Sabbath.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

BJ said: So my question is: How are you so certain that the Scripture, where Jesus talks about Sabbath, is talking about Sabbath reform and not about proper OC Sabbath keeping? What reasoning and evidence points to Jesus reforming the Sabbath, and not providing proper understanding of the OC Sabbath?

Tom said: Read the Gospels. They contain the Sabbath debates between Jesus and the religious leaders. These debates represent a clash between the Old Covenant and the New. Jesus was not trying to perfect the Levitical Priesthood, but REPLACE IT, with the Priesthood of all believers and many other things.

Nor was Jesus trying to preserve the Temple or its OC services. Rather, his followers would now become the new Temple of God, even as the church would become the New Israel of God.

1Cor. 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1Cor. 3:17 If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

1Pet. 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Pet. 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God’s OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

1Pet. 2:10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.

Gal. 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Just as the OC Nation of Israel had a High Priest, a Temple, and a weekly Sabbath doctrine, so too in the NC. Jesus is the High Priest, and all that follow him, and his Reformed Sabbath, are the Temple. Thus the church is the new Israel of God.

BJ said: I know that you passionately object to SDA false teachings and that you repeat this constantly in almost all of your answers, but I would ask that you please not get into that here (for the sure sake of simplicity). I am only interested in what the Bible teaches and not in how a denomination (like the SDA’s) are wrong about the gospel.

Tom said: First off, while the SDA’s should be condemned for their many false and absurd views, they do not have every point wrong as many assume. They have some very correct positions, including their claim that Sunday is a fraudulent doctrine, and that only the 7th day Sabbath can be the correct Sabbath day for the church.

Second, everyone should “passionately object” to the many false doctrines that have overwhelmed the Laodicean church. There is Gospel error in every church, and the many false and confused views about the Sabbath underscores this point.

Third, don’t ask a question, and then try to censor or control the answer. There is no way to honestly discuss the Sabbath doctrine and ignore either the contributions or the errors of the SDA’s. They have staked a claim to this doctrine, and thus they have earned a place at the table for these discussions.

Today, the Adventist Community is starting to discuss the Gospel Sabbath like never before. Although the SDA leaders are acting like the Pharisees of old, pretending that they have no doctrinal errors, they are only fooling themselves and those foolish enough to follow these blind guides and false shepherds. But for those who honestly want to follow the Good Shepherd, there is plenty of information available about the Reformed Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

Here are some discussion links about the Gospel Sabbath.

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=836

The REFORMED Seventh-day Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=228

The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=242

Tom Norris' Reformed Sabbath – Unbiblical
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=787

SDA’s and the New Covenant
http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=830

The discussion of the Gospel Sabbath is a large and complex topic. Because there is so much error in the church, many are very confused about most every doctrine, including the Sabbath. Those that want to find Gospel truth must start by honestly reading the Gospels to understand the teaching of Jesus. His words are the source for the Gospel Sabbath, even as he is the one who gives Eternal Life to those who follow his teachings.

John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Mark 13:31 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

I hope this helps you, and others, better understand the New Covenant Sabbath of Christ.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 01-23-11 11:55 am

QUESTION: Tom, I first want to thank you for your answer. You were very informative.

Look, when I asked you to not get into SDA stuff, my point was to not get into a long discussion about it, as that wasn't what my question was about (I don't care about it being mentioned). You did just that and I appreciate it a lot. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate anyone who passionately objects to mistruth in the church (of any denomination). I myself do agree with you that all denominations have at least some mistruth in them about God's Word.

Anyway, I have a follow-up question on part of your answer:

If Jesus broke OC Sabbath as you say he did because the healing he did was against Jewish law, doesn't that conflict with what Jesus speaks, when he says that no stroke of the law shall fail until all is accomplished?

It seems to me that Jesus is saying that the OC is in effect until his death and resurrection, as that is when all is accomplished (right?). How then he is allowed to break the OC Sabbath when he must still be bound by it, even during His ministry?

------------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris answered: Today, as we discuss the new and virtually unknown doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath, it is very instructive for everyone to understand how the SDA’s fit into the Gospel Story. While they have contributed greatly to our understanding of the genuine Sabbath doctrine, they are also playing the role of the evil Pharisees in the Gospel Story.

Like the Pharisees in the Gospels, the SDA’s are great defenders of the Old Covenant, 7th day Sabbath, as well as a separate Priesthood supported by tithe. There is no denomination in the world that is so obsessed with the doctrine of tithe as the SDA’s, and this fact only underscores their many Old Covenant errors, which so closely mimics the 1st century Jews.

So the SDA’s, who are Old Covenant Christians, are fighting against the Gospel Sabbath as well as against the Priesthood of all believers. They love to practice tithing on a weekly basis, and brag about how biblical, practical, and wonderful it is. Which means they do not understand the Gospel, and are not even Protestant as they pretend. They are enemies of Christ, blind to the Gospel and to the NC teachings of Jesus.

When the Gospel Sabbath is correctly understood, so too is the Gospel. And at this point, there are no denominations that properly or fully understand the Gospel or the Sabbath, including the SDA’s, the self-proclaimed Sabbath experts. They misunderstand the Sabbath more than all others. And because they love money more than Christ, like the Jews, they gladly follow the money trail of tithe and pretend that this is what the NT teaches, when the opposite is the case.

Thus the SDA's are great liars, following the father of lies:

John 8:41 “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:45 “But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.

John 8:46 “Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?

John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

Matt. 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

As for Jesus breaking the OC law by healing on the Sabbath, this is not an opinion, but a Gospel fact. The Record clearly shows that the religious leaders condemned Jesus for Sabbath breaking,- because of his healing activities.

Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”

So we have no basis to pretend that he was not breaking the Old Covenant law. He was. But this does not mean he was sinning as the Jews assumed. He was not. He was the new high priest of the church, the Lord of the Sabbath, and thus he was innocent of their Sabbath breaking charges.

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Jesus was born a Jew, under the OC. This is why he was circumcised. As he lived his life in Judea, there should be no doubt that he carefully followed the law, including the OC Sabbath law. In fact, he lived such an exemplary life; he could declare that no one could accuse him of being a troublemaker or sinner.

John 8:46 “Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?

However, when Jesus started his NC ministry, he introduced the reformed, NC Sabbath- where it was NOT sinful to do any kind of work on the Sabbath. This is when “some” of the Jews condemned him as a Sabbath breaker, along with his disciples that followed his behavior.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

Jesus ministry launched the New Covenant. While John the B was an Old Covenant reformer, Jesus was a New Covenant one. And thus Jesus made it clear that there was a big change coming—right now. Jesus NC Sabbath was part of this great change.

John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease.

Jesus reformed Sabbath was in great conflict with the OC doctrine of the Sabbath on a number of levels. Which is why it caused such great division among the people. But Jesus explained the theological basis for the change, and declared himself and his disciples innocent of the Sabbath breaking charges.

The Priestly Sabbath allowed for work on the Sabbath, and thus Jesus was not breaking the (priestly) Sabbath as they claimed. But they did not believe his claims to be a priest sent from God, so they considered him a great Sabbath breaker and killed him for it. (The OC penalty for Sabbath breaking was death).

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

This confused idea that Jesus had to obey the OC Sabbath is wrong. Once his NC ministry started, he was bound to reform the Priesthood, remove tithing, and change the Sabbath doctrine, and this is what he did. The fact that all today are very disorientated about his teachings only proves what the Laodicean Message predicted: That the last church is blind to the Gospel, and wrong about the Sabbath and most everything else. Just like the 1st century Jews.

Today, it is time for all that seriously wish to follow the Gospel to do so. The time for double-talk, and pandering to tradition is past. Those who seek Eternal Life can only obtain it from the Good Shepherd, not from the religious leaders who impose tithe and false views of the Sabbath and God upon the people.

Matt. 16:12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

The Good Shepherd clearly teaches a working Sabbath in all four Gospels. Those that deny such a clear fact are blind to the Gospel. They are following a false Shepherd and will forfeit Eternal Life.

While many Jews decided that the Gospel Sabbath was a doctrine from the devil, and from the mind of an “insane” man, all today must determine for themselves what is truth and what is not.

The Jews made the wrong choice about the Gospel and the Sabbath, and so too has the church throughout the long ages of history. Let all be very careful how they deal with this pivotal teaching of Christ that has been ignored, suppressed, and misrepresented all these years by the modern day scribes and Pharisees.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

Those who cannot understand the Gospel Sabbath, cannot understand the Gospel. They will be found fighting against God and lose out on Eternal Life. This is what happened to the Jews and what is presently happening with the SDA’s.

John 10:24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 10:29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

John 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

Those who attack the Gospel Sabbath are fighting against God and repudiating Christ. They are making the same fatal mistake of the Jews, for the same reasons.

Beware!

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com and Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 01-24-11 1:27 am

Tom and others, my understanding is Christ kept the Sabbath as it should have been kept under the Old Covenant. In the New Covenant He is the reality of the Sabbath rest that we can have Today. Further Jesus said:

John 5:17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

The Jews were the only ones, and those among them, that were to keep the Sabbath. Under the New Covenant we are to accept Christ as our TRUE REST (Col 2:16-17) and strive for the Heavenly Rest that Heb 4:9 speaks of. STRONG's #4520. There is no Reformed Sabbath, no day to be "kept" is added to the Gospel. You hang on to this, so the SDAs wont totally give up on you, in my opinion.

Last edited by bob_2 (01-24-11 1:35 am)

tom_norris · 01-24-11 10:34 am

Tom, I want to thank you for your answer to this and my previous question.

You have shown a different side of the Sabbath that needs to be examined carefully.

I will meditate and study on what you have said.

Tom replied: Thank you for your correct response. This is the proper manner to deal with new doctrine.

2Tim. 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

2Tim. 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 01-24-11 10:36 am

Tom,

Thank you for taking the time to do this for people. I have a single question about the Sabbath.

It is actually more of a clarifying question after reading your other answers.

I am a former SDA member myself.

I want to ask you to answer a single question, if you would please.

Are you saying that the Sabbath day of Saturday is correct, but the manner in which SDA's preach of what to do and how others are condemned is false?

Or are you saying that the Sabbath day as Saturday is wrong as well?

I understand the shortcomings and misguidance of the SDA church so I do not want to hear more about that please. I mean no offense, I just grew up in the church and left as an adult so I am well aware of their false teachings. I only wish to hear your clarification while answering my question.

Thank you so much, Tom.

Best,

Mike
-------------------------------------------------------

Mike, the SDA’s are CORRECT to teach that Sunday is false and that only the 7th day can be the weekly Sabbath for the church.

So the SDA’s do have the correct day, but the wrong doctrine. Just like the Pharisees in the Gospels.

Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 01-24-11 2:51 pm

Thank you again, Tom.

I have been reading more of your posts and I must say that your analyses and knowledge are incredible and are very helpful to me as I go through scripture looking for answers.

bob_2 · 01-24-11 3:51 pm

Tom, direct me to one of your posts, preferrable a moderately short one, that gives texts for your postion. Thanks!!

tom_norris · 01-24-11 4:40 pm

Bob, others are able to find the posts, read the texts contained, and understand this discussion correctly.

Why are you having such difficulty?

You have been at this for years, but yet, you still can’t seem to grasp this new Sabbath doctrine. Why?

As Paul says in 2Tim. 3:7, some people are “always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Let’s hope you are not one of those.

There are a number of posts over at the All Expert site. Perhaps some of these might work for you?

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … _70484.htm

bob_2 · 01-24-11 7:17 pm

That's enough of an answer for me that you have nothing to offer. I have supplied anyone who asked a site that would give verses that would show my reasoning on NCT. You have bad mouthed the SDA church and those that don't get or believe your shaky reasoning. I will write it off for what it is, Junk Theology.

The majority of the Jews rejected Jesus, because He claimed to be God's Son. Paul met on the Sabbath without any conflict about the Sabbath, but about Jesus as the Messiah. Show me a scripture that talks about Christ's difference with the Old Covenant, not what the Pharisee had done to the Law, but the way the OC was meant to be kept. You act as if that is clear to every one. Almost anyone that comments on your "writings" differ with your position, because it has no scriptural background. If it was truth, You could direct me right to the scriptures, your unwillingness to do this over the years speaks volumns .

Last edited by bob_2 (01-24-11 7:28 pm)

bob_2 · 01-24-11 7:51 pm

You talk of a “Priestly Sabbath” with no explanation. You are making things up out of whole cloth. The reality of the Sabbath shadow is found in the reality of Jesus Christ's rest for the Soul. You are teaching false, and murky with no acurrate scripture. Christ was bound by the OC until His death, and was only pointing out how the OC Sabbath was to be kept, and also stating that He can give "Soul Rest" if you trust in Him:

Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Last edited by bob_2 (01-24-11 7:54 pm)

bob_2 · 01-25-11 3:03 am

In my business, we had to educate our employees to keep them informed. We used to say if the student didn't get it, look first to the teacher and his lesson plan. I have looked at your empty words, that say nothing. There is no reformed Sabbath but a fulfilled Sabbath in Jesus flesh on the cross. It brings rest by forgiving sins. You have never shown a Reformed Sabbath even though you try to belittle others. Look inward bro at your lesson plan. It is self made and not from the Bible though the Bible is quoted, it does not say what you say.

tom_norris · 01-25-11 4:50 pm

Bob, every discussion needs a foil; a devils advocate to challenge every point and play the fool. This is what Pharaoh was to Moses, and what the TSDA’s were on the late JR’s site.

So don’t think your anti-Gospel work on this site is not necessary or appreciated. Someone has to play the fool. Thanks for volunteering.

Bob2 said: That's enough of an answer for me that you have nothing to offer… I will write it off for what it is, Junk Theology.

Tom said: All are free to take whatever positions they want about religion. No problem.

However, understand that Jesus theology, especially his view of the reformed Sabbath, was also considered by the leaders as worse than Junk Theology. So your anti-Gospel views are hardly new or different.

Bob2 said: The majority of the Jews rejected Jesus, because He claimed to be God's Son.

Tom said: This is not true. The issue of Jesus claiming to be God’s son was not the featured point of his ministry. Nor is this the point that stunned and amazed the crowds. Rather, it was his unique view of the Sabbath that amazed the people.

Mark 1:22 They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Mark 1:27 They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves, saying, “What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”

Mark 2:12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

Mark 5:20 And he went away and began to proclaim in Decapolis what great things Jesus had done for him; and everyone was amazed.

Mark 9:15 Immediately, when the entire crowd saw Him, they were amazed and began running up to greet Him.

You really need to study the NT better in order to understand the teachings of Jesus correctly. At this point, you are a blind man in need of healing.

Bob 2 said: Paul met on the Sabbath without any conflict about the Sabbath, but about Jesus as the Messiah.

Tom said: Wrong. Paul’s Gospel preaching, on the Sabbath, incited great trouble, many times. Thus the connection to the Sabbath and to the synagogue played a featured part in the development of the church.

Acts 13:44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.

Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.

Acts 13:50 But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district.

Bob2 said: Show me a scripture that talks about Christ's difference with the Old Covenant, not what the Pharisee had done to the Law, but the way the OC was meant to be kept.

Tom said: Jesus insistence of working on the Sabbath was a great point of departure about the Sabbath. This is why the Jews got so angry with him. Read the Sabbath debates and see for yourself.

Bob said: You talk of a “Priestly Sabbath” with no explanation. You are making things up out of whole cloth.

Tom said: I have repeatedly explained about the Levitical Sabbath. The Priests, unlike the people, were allowed to work on the Sabbath without sin or guilt. This is the theological basis used by Jesus to establish the Gospel Sabbath. In the NC, ALL are priests and thus all can work on the Sabbath without guilt.

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Do you think I made up this scripture? What is the matter with you?

Bob2 said: The reality of the Sabbath shadow is found in the reality of Jesus Christ's rest for the Soul.

Tom said: This is just childish double-talk. It makes no sense. Sorry.

Bob2 said: You are teaching false doctrine, and murky with no acurrate scripture.

Tom said: How would you know false doctrine from true? Your lack of theological knowledge is truly impressive, and so too your bad attitude.

Bob2 said: Christ was bound by the OC until His death, and was only pointing out how the OC Sabbath was to be kept, and also stating that He can give "Soul Rest" if you trust in Him:

Tom said: Wrong. Christ was not “bound” by the OC law or even the Temple, which was the visible manifestation of Jewish Law.

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Who are you to declare that Jesus could not teach the NC? Have you lost your mind? You sound like the Pharisees, who also thought that Jesus had to follow the law as well as their interpretations of it. Sad.

tom_norris · 01-25-11 5:02 pm

Bob2 said: Tom and others, my understanding is Christ kept the Sabbath as it should have been kept under the Old Covenant.

Tom said: Your understanding is very wrong. The Jews correctly kept the Sabbath the way that they were taught by Moses and God.

In the OT, Sabbath breaking was a crime that carried the death penalty. This was not a mistake, but the harsh rules of the OC to enforce the OC Sabbath law.

In the NT, Christ was promoting a very different Sabbath from what Moses taught the people. In fact, it was so different that it amazed and stunned all who heard it, even as it infuriated the leaders who greatly disapproved.

For example, Moses invented the Preparation Day, so that the people could prepare extra food on Friday, because they were not allowed to work, (harvest or cook, etc.) on the 7th day. However, Jesus teaches that all can work on the Sabbath, like the Priests, who alone could work on the Sabbath and not be guilty.

Thus there is no Preparation day associated with the NC Sabbath because it is not sinful to work on the Gospel Sabbath. It is not wrong to light fires, cook, travel, or harvest or do any such thing. Jesus Sabbath is not the same Sabbath as Moses taught. Same day, but very different doctrine. Until all grasp this Gospel Fact, confusion will reign.

Jesus NC view of the Sabbath was very different from the OC Sabbath doctrine. Which is why the Jews were so angry with him. What right did he have to make such a change in the law? What right did he have to change thousands of years of tradition?

Jesus was NOT an OC Reformer, but a NC one. He was a paradigm shifter, moving Judaism forward within the pre-ordained plan of God from the OC to the NC.

In the Gospels, Jesus is promoting a PRIESTLY version of the Sabbath for EVERYONE. He was teaching that ALL could now work on the Sabbath, just like the Levites, without guilt.

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Thus the Sabbath of Christ featured the Priesthood of all Believers, even as the Levites were no longer necessary or wanted in the church. Which is why they were banished, along with the doctrine of tithe that supported them.

Those today that pay tithe, have no idea what they are doing. They are embracing the OC and repudiating the Gospel. They are standing outside the kingdom of God, playing the role of the Judaizers.

Jesus’ reformed Sabbath was not, not, not, how the OC Sabbath was designed, taught, or administered.

In fact, no Jew had ever put forth such an amazing and unique view of the Sabbath, as did Jesus. Which is why all were stunned at his new view about the Sabbath, and why it caused such a great division. It will do the same thing today.

When the SDA’s finally comprehend the teachings of Jesus, if they ever do, they will be stunned at how stupid and wrong they have been about tithe, and their OC view that it is sinful to work on the Sabbath. They are making great fools of themselves for all to see.

ANYONE that pays tithe does not understand the Gospel. They have forfeited Eternal Life, choosing instead to embrace the OC of death.

So there is no chance that Jesus was trying to reform the OC Sabbath and correct Moses, as if he were wrong about the Sabbath. Rather, Jesus is teaching a very different, more mature, NC Sabbath for the church. Which was a very NEW and different doctrine from the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the OC.

Just as the Gospel Sabbath, with its repudiation of tithe stunned and divided the Jews, so too will it divide and condemn the wretched SDA’s, (and then all others). No wonder the SDA’s tried to censor and silence Adventist Reform? The power of the hierarchy is based on the error of tithe and when the people wake up and stop this false practice, their income for all the leaders and pastors will be cut off.

Tithe and the OC Sabbath are the SDA’s two greatest doctrines, the source of their power and control over people’s minds. When the people realize they are both false doctrines, administered by corrupt and incompetent wolves, the SDA church will fall. Watch and see…

Bob2 said: In the New Covenant He is the reality of the Sabbath rest that we can have Today.

Tom said: None of the Gospels teach this garbage about “Jesus is the Sabbath.” So please stop the double-talk and myth making. It makes no sense, nor does it fit with Gospel Story. It is tiresome. Jesus is the Lord of the anti-tithe, Gospel Sabbath, not the OC, tithe based Sabbath of Moses. Those that follow Christ will understand his doctrine of the Reformed Sabbath and embrace it.

Furthermore, this idea that we are to “rest” and not work on the Sabbath is an OC view of the Sabbath. The NC, Gospel Sabbath does NOT feature rest. Rather, it promotes ACTIVITY and good works on the Sabbath. Which is why Jesus is pictured as very active on the Sabbath. The NT does not show him lying around like the SDA’s, waiting until sundown to do anything.

Thus the NC Gospel Sabbath is not about rest at all. But about following the Gospel teachings of Christ and WORKING on the Sabbath. NOT RESTING, but working.

Matt. 12:12 “How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

Matt. 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

So Jesus does not teach that God is resting on the Sabbath, or that this is what we are do to. Rather, he teaches that God is working on the Sabbath. Which means that this typical emphasis on “rest” is not correct.

John 4:34 Jesus *said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.

Matt. 11:2 Now when John, while imprisoned, heard of the works of Christ, he sent word by his disciples

John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

John 5:36 “But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish — the very works that I do — testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”

John 14:11 “Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

John 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Jesus PROMOTES good works ON THE SABBATH. He does not promote OC Sabbath rest. Which is a great myth and error.

Bob2 said: The Jews were the only ones, and those among them, that were to keep the Sabbath.

Tom said: All that follow Christ must become spiritual Jews. So yes, the Sabbath, like the Gospel, is a Semitic doctrine. All that follow Christ, must follow his teachings about the Reformed Sabbath and all else.

Bob2 said: Under the New Covenant we are to accept Christ as our TRUE REST (Col 2:16-17) and strive for the Heavenly Rest that Heb 4:9 speaks of.

Tom said: The NC Sabbath is not about rest, but about doing good works. So your point makes no sense. The Gospel Sabbath is not about rest at all. Who knew?

Bob2 said: There is no Reformed Sabbath; no day to be "kept" is added to the Gospel.

Tom said: The Jews agree with you. They rejected Jesus’ Reformed Sabbath.

As for “keeping” the Reformed Sabbath; what is there to keep? Nothing in the sense of refraining from work. This is not correct. The SDA view of Sabbath keeping is all-wrong, and so too the Sunday keepers with their Blue Laws.

Bob2 said: You hang on to this, so the SDA’s wont totally give up on you, in my opinion.

Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. So you think I pander to the SDA’s so they might like me? Wow! You do have an active imagination.

The church has embraced a weekly Sabbath from the very beginning of its history. Are they also trying to pander to the SDA’s? Hardly. The reason the church embraces a weekly Sabbath is because this is what the Gospels clearly teach. The fact that it became Sunday, and also follows the OC formula of not working, is beside the point.

I hope this helps those that want to understand.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 01-26-11 1:20 am

Tom said:

Tom said: None of the Gospels teach this garbage about “Jesus is the Sabbath.” So please stop the double-talk and myth making. It makes no sense, nor does it fit with Gospel Story. It is tiresome. Jesus is the Lord of the anti-tithe, Gospel Sabbath, not the OC, tithe based Sabbath of Moses. Those that follow Christ will understand his doctrine of the Reformed Sabbath and embrace it.

The "soul" rest Jesus promises when you come to Him is not necessarily physical rest. If your discernment isn't working when you read about Jesus' soul rest, the result to you will be "tiresome". You will remain tired with your Reformed Sabbath, no rest for the soul that is. To argue against tithe is self defeating and odd if you are attempting to establish a chruch budget.

tom_norris · 01-27-11 1:00 pm

Bob said: the "soul" rest Jesus promises when you come to Him is not necessarily physical rest.

Tom said: Jesus is not speaking of physical rest, or the Sabbath. He is not claiming to be our rest, but to give us rest.

Bob2 said: If your discernment isn't working when you read about Jesus' soul rest, the result to you will be "tiresome". You will remain tired with your Reformed Sabbath, no rest for the soul that is.

Tom said: There is no rest for any that refuse to embrace the teachings of Christ. Why would you think that?

The Reformed Sabbath is a clear and repeated teaching of Christ in all four Gospels. However, your mythical views about Jesus being the Sabbath rest is not taught anywhere in the NT. So you need to give it a rest and repent. You are working way too hard trying to defend false doctrine and refute the teachings of Christ. Very tiresome.

Pay attention: The NT does NOT teach anywhere, that Jesus is our Sabbath “rest.” He NEVER said such a thing and neither did anyone else. You need to admit your views are impossible and wrong and stop pretending that you understand the NT. You are not even close to correct. Sad.

In fact, Hebrews makes it clear that there is a Sabbath doctrine for the church. But this is hardly the same as saying that Jesus is our Sabbath rest.

Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Furthermore, there are only two places in the NT where Jesus even uses the words “rest.” Your attempt to pretend that this rare passage does away with the weekly Sabbath is dishonest, irrational, and absurd.

The Gospels are full of Jesus discussion, debate, and instruction about the REFORMED Sabbath. To ignore so much scripture and focus on two passages that you like is nothing more than irresponsible proof texting.

Matt. 11:28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

Those who “learn” theology “from Christ” will come to understand the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Those, like yourself, that insist on making things up, refusing to be educated by Christ, are doomed. They need to first learn how to read the Bible and to be honest with Christ and the Word. You have not done this.

Bob 2 said: To argue against tithe is self defeating and odd if you are attempting to establish a church budget.

Tom said: Doctrine is not established because of financial needs. So forget this absurd logic. It is self-defeating to make up doctrine for supposedly practical reasons, especially about money. Jesus warns about such things.

Furthermore, the apostolic church did not practice tithing and it would have been a sin for them to try and do so. The fact that you do not understand this point only underscores your lack of Gospel comprehension.

No doubt your mind has been ruined by so many years of being an SDA. This is why cults are so dangerous. They ruin the mind and stunt ones ability to learn truth. Many never recover from such an unhealthy upbringing. I know many SDA’s whose minds are incapable of understanding the Gospel. Sad.

bob_2 · 01-27-11 2:30 pm

Tom, Colossians 2:16-17 is pretty clear,

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

You've seen this text before yet you claim Christ is never considered THE REST. I refuse to get into insulting or telling people their brains are ruined, I will continue to use the Bible as my guide.

Jesus pointed out how the Pharisees had made man made rules about the Sabbath, but he never pointed out a Reformed Sabbath. I will change my minde if your can show me a modern day scholar that claims such a thing as a Reformed Sabbath, showing the before and after. The back and forth with the Jewish leaders was chiding for the rules never given by God when the Sabbath was established. I am open minded, but I dare say, you can not produce even one scholar that teaches as you do.

tom_norris · 01-28-11 10:47 am

Tom, Colossians 2:16-17 is pretty clear; Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Tom said: There is nothing clear about your anti-Sabbatarian confusion. Marcion did the same thing. He too ignored and eliminated most of the Gospels because he did not like what they said.

He too paid more attention to Paul than to Jesus, pretending as you do, that Paul supported his views. So you are using an old trick that was refuted by the early church, which is why all four Gospels stand at the head of the NT.

First, you claim that Jesus is our Sabbath rest, (which he never says,) and now you claim he is our shadow? Which he also never says. So which is it? Is he our Sabbath rest or our Sabbath shadow? Whatever any of this nonsense means?

This is the problem when you lurch around the NT, ignoring large passages that you don’t like, looking for reasons to support false doctrine. You have to ignore so many passages to make your theory fit, that one may as well throw most of the Gospels in the trash. This is not how to understand the teachings of Christ.

Furthermore, Christ is the premier theologian of the church, not Paul. So you can’t ignore what Christ teaches about the Sabbath so that you can find some doctrine that you like better from Paul.

Paul has no veto power over Christ, nor is he Lord of the Gospel Sabbath. So your attempt to hide from the teachings of Jesus, by resting in the supposed arms of Paul is futile and absurd. This is not an honest or worthwhile hermeneutic. It is a big waste of time, and very dishonest. So what is the point?

1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath is not established by Paul, but by Christ. So you must go to Christ in the Gospels to learn what the Good Shepherd teaches about the Sabbath. Your refusal to embrace the Gospels, and to learn from Christ is your downfall. It is the downfall of all that are lost.

Bob2 said: You've seen this text before yet you claim Christ is never considered THE REST.

Tom said: The text you quoted does not contain the words of Christ, nor does it even mention the word rest.

I suggest you read it again, without inserting imaginary words, meaning, and false doctrinal authority.

You are clearly trying to manipulate the Bible to say what you want it to say. This is how all SDA’s have been raised and taught, so it is hardly surprising. This is how they come up with all manner of false doctrine, like tithe and the IJ. Sad.

Bob2 said: Jesus pointed out how the Pharisees had made man-made rules about the Sabbath, but he never pointed out a Reformed Sabbath.

Tom said: So you think the OC Sabbath was full of man made rules? And that Jesus corrected Moses and then went on to abolish the weekly Sabbath? Wow! Is there no end to your confusion?

Of course you are free to live in denial and delusion. Many embrace all manner of Bible nonsense. Some even handle poisonous snakes and claim they are following the NT. But those that are blind cannot see for good reason.

Bob2 said: I will change my mind if your can show me a modern day scholar that claims such a thing as a Reformed Sabbath, showing the before and after.

Tom said: I don’t care if you ever change your mind about the Gospel Sabbath or the Easter Bunny. Your confusion is your problem, not mine. You can defend tithe, pretend that there is no Sabbath, and follow whatever Bible teachers you want. You can even go to church and play with snakes if you want. Each to their own.

However, it’s time for me to stop wasting so much time with you. Others have real questions, and want to learn. It is not fair for you to take up so much time in worthless quibbling.

This is why Jesus teaches that Gospel Reformers are to move on and not waste their time in endless discussions with those who refuse to believe.

Mark 6:11 “Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.”

Bob2 said: The back and forth with the Jewish leaders was chiding for the rules never given by God when the Sabbath was established.

Tom said: Jesus was not trying to reform the Sabbath of Moses for the Jews. Rather, he invented a NC Sabbath for the church, which featured the Priesthood of all Believers. Fail to understand this point, and the little will make sense.

Bob2 said: I am open minded, but I dare say, you can not produce even one scholar that teaches as you do.

Tom said: The point is not to be open minded, but to understand proper hermeneutics, and to treat the NT with respect, care, and honesty. Anyone that so disrespects the words of Jesus, as you do, and refuses to embrace what he teaches, is standing on the outside of the Kingdom of God. Eternal Life is not for such people.

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Furthermore, the Gospel is not for everyone. Only a few will understand and be saved. It is obvious that neither the Gospel, nor the Gospel Sabbath, is for you. And that is fine by me.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Our views are so different that there is no hope of reconciliation. We will never agree on much of anything, except that it is a waste of time to continue further dialogue.

Thank you for participating, but please do not post in the Adventist Reform section anymore. It’s time for us both to move on, -in different directions.

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath

tom_norris · 08-21-11 9:51 pm

Bob2 said: I looked to see if at the time of Christ the Pharisees were keeping the Law as given by God at Sinai or had they corrupted the rules for the Sabbath keeping. Check this article:

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/hair/modernday.html

Tom said: Ha! How did you check out this ancient fact of history and theology? By going to an expert on ancient Judaism? Or by looking at the Torah itself to see what it says?

Answer: NO. You went online looking for anything, from anybody, to find something that you wanted to hear. This is not serious Bible study or research. It is foolish desperation to defend false doctrine. Pitiful.

Luke 6:39 “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?

There can be no doubt that Moses taught “no work” on the Sabbath. No cooking. No gathering food. No fires, no traveling, etc.

So this attempt to pretend that Jesus was not really teaching a different Sabbath from Moses, is dishonest nonsense. How do you sleep at night?

The OC says no work on the Sabbath, (unless one is a Priest); Jesus says, all are Priests in the NC, and thus not bound by the law of the 4th Commandment against work on the Sabbath.

Here are two very different Sabbaths.

The OC Sabbath is not only a “no work” under the pain of death doctrine, but it also had a separate, "all male" Levitical Priesthood as well as the Friday Preparation Day.

By contrast, the NC Sabbath is a “working,” active Sabbath where all are Priests of God, (men and women), and the Preparation Day is useless and discarded. These are very different 7th day Sabbaths and there is no excuse for the church today being so brain dead and wrong about this doctrine.

Sunday is the wrong day, and so too this idea that there is to be no work on this “holy rest day.” But the NC Sabbath is not a rest day at all. That was the OC Sabbath.

When will the church wake up?

No wonder the present state of the church makes heaven sick. The Gentiles have done no better at representing God than did the Jews.

Bob2 said: In this article, it talks about the Oral Law that developed from Sinai to the time of Christ. It was concocted. The Sabbath Law was still there, but the corrupted rules were what Christ was stripping away.

Tom said: Of course OC Judaism became corrupt. So what? That does not change “no work” into, “it is not a sin to work on the Sabbath.” These are opposing positions. Nor was there any written or oral tradition about everyone becoming a priest, and thus avoiding the Sabbath rules.

Jesus went far beyond tweaking the OC Sabbath. He turned it on its head. Moses said “no work,” except for the Levites, but Jesus said, all that follow me are Priests of God and thus all are free to work on the Sabbath, even as God does the same thing, without sin or guilt.

Bob2 said: There is no Reformed Gospel Sabbath,

Tom said: Ha! Maybe not for the Pharisees or yourself. But for those that seriously choose to follow Christ and his Word, they will understand the Gospel and embrace the NC Sabbath of Christ.

If there is no reformed Sabbath for the church, what kind of Sabbath is there? NCT says there is no Sabbath. But they also say that Jesus only taught 9 of the 10 Commandments, omitting the 4th. This is such an obvious and fatal error, that NCT has been exposed as a cultic joke. Any Pastor that embraces this garbage should be fired.

Bob2 said: but when Jesus warned the disciples about the Pharisee teaching, He was not claiming a Sabbath for His Kingdom to come, because He fulfilled the Sabbath shadow.

Tom said: Jesus teaches a reformed Sabbath in all four Gospels, which the Pharisees hated.

He did not fulfill the Sabbath, nor did he ever teach such a point. Why do you insist to making up your own version of the Gospel Story? This is wrong. We are stuck with the 4 Gospels. They are the primary source for the NC Sabbath. And they do not teach this silly delusion about Jesus fulfilling the Sabbath Shadow.

In fact, there is no such term or phrase as “Sabbath Shadow” in the entire Bible. Nor did Jesus ever teach any such point at any time. So stop making up your version of Christ. It will not get you anywhere but to hell.

Bob2 said: At the time of Christ He was pointing out the Oral Law that the Pharisees created to "help God" give manmade rules that are not the spirit of the Law.

Tom said: It was God that spoke the Sabbath Law. It was God that said “no work” on the Sabbath, (unless one was a Levite). It was God that caused the miracle of the double manna on the “Preparation Day,” and thus, this part of the schoolmaster Sabbath, was not created by man, but by God.

I repeat: the no working Sabbath of the Jews came from God, not the 1st century Pharisees as you claim. Wow! You just can’t be honest with the material can you? You just can’t admit that NCT is wrong. So you try and change the Gospel Story to fit your false views. Pitiful, - and suicidal.

Bob2 said: In one place in the article, the author says, the Pharisees made laws that God never created.

Tom said: Agreed. But so what? This proves nothing.

Jesus went far beyond anything that any Jew had ever taught about the Sabbath. He took a position that amazed and divided the Jews, shocking the religious establishment. And so it will happen again…

Bob2 said: Their interpretation of Sabbath keeping was corrupted.

Tom said: Agreed. But the OC view of the Sabbath was still based on a strict “no work” policy, plus a Friday Preparation Day, and a separate Priesthood.

Jesus challenged this OC view and transformed the Sabbath into a NC doctrine. Those who deny this are not part of the NC. They are not even literate, obviously being unable to read the Gospels.

Bob2 said: Jesus was pointing out this error not Reforming the Sabbath.

Tom said: Wrong. Jesus was teaching a new (covenant) doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church, a doctrine based on the Priesthood of all believers.

A doctrine that gives all NC believers an exemption from the OC Sabbath rules against work. Jesus was not trying to lead the Jews deeper into the OC, not at all. He was ending the OC and starting the New, and the Reformed Sabbath was a living, public doctrine that led the way.

The Sabbath doctrine is paradigm shifting in nature, and that is why it causes so much controversy. Those that understand Jesus, will also understand and embrace his view of the Sabbath. Which in turn stirs up the religious establishment, who fights to defend their false traditions.

All this will be repeated.

Bob2 said: Read the whole article. This is spiritual abuse which I believe you are doing and the tSDA is doing, neither is Biblical.

Tom said: Ha! So Tom Norris is “abusing” people by promoting the NC Sabbath of Christ? And NCT is not abusing anyone by promoting their anti-Sabbatarian, fictional, and heretical view of the Sabbath?

The article made some good points, but not enough to remove the Sabbath, or to pretend that Jesus Sabbath teaching is OC in nature.

However, there is great spiritual abuse taking place by those that refuse to submit to the authority and teaching of Jesus. It is very wrong to surf the Internet looking for answers to use in the defense of false doctrine. Such behavior is the fulfillment of prophecy.

2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

While you imagine that you have found some points that seem to support your false views, it will do you no good, because only the NT has any authority for doctrine. This is the problem for any that try to refute the Reformed Sabbath of Christ. Only the Words and actions of Jesus can establish the correct Sabbath for the church. He is the highest authority for the Church, and its greatest theologian.

Ignore and refute Jesus at your own risk.

Bob2 said: Tom, you have accepted the Pharisees man made laws by talking of a Reform of a legitimate law, which none of the Pharisees Sabbath Rules were, it was corrupt Oral Law.

Tom said: While the Pharisees are the bad guys in the Gospel Story, it is not true that everything they taught was wrong. In fact, Jesus supported much of what they taught because it was based on the written Torah.

Matt. 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,

Matt. 23:2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;

Matt. 23:3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Here Jesus admits to the authority of both the Torah and present Jewish leaders. So he is not saying that the present leaders should not be teaching the Law, rather he is saying that they are hypocrites for not really observing it correctly, from the heart.

Moses did not teach anyone to “tie up heavy spiritual burdens” on people and make life hard for them. This is not the purpose of God’s law.

Moses did not teach anyone to be arrogant and showoff their supposed spiritual accomplishments, being full of ego in the name of God. Many things that the Jews were doing had no approval from Moses, just like many things the SDA’s teach do not have the approve from Ellen White, as they claim. Thus many trust in a delusion.

Matt. 23:4 “They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

Matt. 23:5 “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.

Matt. 23:6 “They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,

Matt. 23:7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.

The Pharisees had the correct law, but an incorrect view of it and of God. They talked a good game in the name of God, but they were just pretending and lying. They were full of evil and false doctrine, which is no fault of the Law or Moses.

John 5:45 “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

John 5:46 “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

John 5:47 “But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Moreover, Jesus understood that the religious leaders would never repent or admit their errors, so he tries to separate the people from their authority and rule because they are unfit to represent God’s law or the Gospel.

This lesson should be clear for us today. We are not to trust those who claim to be spiritual leaders today, like any Pastor or any church leader. We are not to follow this person or that scholar, relying on their interpretations for our Eternal Life. ONLY the teachings of Jesus are salvific. Only the Jewish God is the real God, and only Christ is our leader.

Matt. 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

Matt. 23:9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Matt. 23:10 “Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

When it comes to any point of church doctrine, only the Words of Christ are primary. Those who embrace a doctrine of the Sabbath that is different from what Jesus teaches, which is every denomination on earth, are not following Christ or his Gospel. They are pretenders and hypocrites, just like the Pharisees.

Today, organized religion is fully corrupt and very wrong. The true PAJ of the church condemns all, and now it is easy to see why. They all have the wrong Gospel, which is evidenced by the wrong Sabbath, (or in the case of NCT, no Sabbath at all).

Bob2 said: Prove that the rules condemned were original from God. You won't find it.

Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, this is too funny. Is this NCT defense serious? How can you possibly think you have a chance to make this point stick?

The Pharisees were 100% correct to teach there was “no work” allowed on the 7th day, (except for the Levites). They were also correct to teach a Friday “Preparation Day” in order to facilitate the “no work” rules. Here are these “original rules” that disprove your point.

Ex. 20:8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Ex. 20:9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

Ex. 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

Ex. 20:11 “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The OC features a non-working, 7th day Sabbath, supported by a Friday “Preparation Day.” Jesus removed the Preparation Day, as well as any guilt associated with not working on the Sabbath. He changed the rules for all to see, but few have eyes to see such spiritual genius at work.

Here is the passage that not only supports the “non working” OC Sabbath, but also the Preparation Day, that precedes it. Note that this took place before Sinai, and that God himself is giving this “no work” Sabbath instruction to Moses.

The OC Sabbath and the Friday Preparation Day.

Ex. 16:15 When the sons of Israel saw it, they said to one another, “What is it?” For they did not know what it was. And Moses said to them, “It is the bread which the LORD has given you to eat.

Ex. 16:16 “This is what the LORD has commanded, ‘Gather of it every man as much as he should eat; you shall take an omer apiece according to the number of persons each of you has in his tent.’”

Ex. 16:17 The sons of Israel did so, and some gathered much and some little.

Ex. 16:18 When they measured it with an omer, he who had gathered much had no excess, and he who had gathered little had no lack; every man gathered as much as he should eat.

Ex. 16:19 Moses said to them, “Let no man leave any of it until morning.”

Ex. 16:20 But they did not listen to Moses, and some left part of it until morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.

Ex. 16:21 They gathered it morning by morning, every man as much as he should eat; but when the sun grew hot, it would melt.

Ex. 16:22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,

Ex. 16:23 then he said to them, “This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.”

Ex. 16:24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.

Ex. 16:25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.

Ex. 16:26 “Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.”

Ex. 16:27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.

Ex. 16:28 Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?

Ex. 16:29 “See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”

Ex. 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Jesus Reformed Sabbath not only ended the Friday Preparation Day, but he also embraces the Manna Story and declared that it points to him.

John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 6:48 “I am the bread of life.

John 6:49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

John 6:50 “This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

John 6:51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Sinners are sustained 7 days a week by the manna (bread) and wine (real wine) of the Gospel, which are contained in the Words of Christ. The result of this diet is Eternal Life.

John 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.

John 6:56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

John 6:57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.

John 6:58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Jesus Reformed Sabbath is part of the Gospel bread that saves our lives. His active, 7th day Sabbath does not require any Friday “Preparation Day,” nor does it forbid work on the Gospel Sabbath.

Of course the Jews looked for reasons to not believe, and they found it in Jesus radical view of the Sabbath.

John 7:23 “If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?

John 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

John 7:25 So some of the people of Jerusalem were saying, “Is this not the man whom they are seeking to kill?

John 7:26 “Look, He is speaking publicly, and they are saying nothing to Him. The rulers do not really know that this is the Christ, do they?

The Jews had no idea that their Messiah was going to greatly Reform their religion, which included the 7th day Sabbath, and they refused to co-operate.

Bob2 said: The Pharisees had created the extra rules that Jesus was condemning them for. Because they had loading/burdened the Jews with their own "oral traditions/laws".

Tom said: While the Pharisees had gone overboard with their legalism, they were still correct to teach a non working Sabbath, complete with a Friday “Preparation Day.” Nothing you can say will change this historic and theological fact.

Therefore, your theory that Jesus was only trying to improve OC theology and make Judaism a better, more honest religion is utter nonsense. Jesus came to establish the NC, not to improve the OC. Jesus came to transition the OC into the NC.

Bob2 said: This is not Reform but pointing out error.

Tom said: Jesus preached NC doctrine. His reformed, active, Sabbath is part of his Gospel instruction to the church. (Such a point disproves NCT, which teaches that Jesus did not teach any NC doctrine about the Sabbath.)

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”

NCT is built on sand. It will not hold up under examination, much less in the Judgment.

Bob2 said: Whether the Sabbath is part of the New Covenant, there must be a command by Jesus.

Tom said: Anyone that claims to follow Christ must do so. Those that misunderstand or ignore his teachings, including his often-repeated doctrine of the Reformed, NC Sabbath, will be locked out of the Kingdom of God.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

In case you don’t know it; you are standing outside of the NC. While you obviously have very little idea of who Jesus is, or what he teaches, you nonetheless refute him at every opportunity. Eternal Life is not granted to anyone under such circumstances.

I suggest that you repent of NCT and try to figure out the genuine Gospel before it s too late. But I fear it may already be for you, and for many others that were raised SDA.

Bob 2 said: Instead he talks of "spiritual rest" which Jesus is introducing as a Gospel concept, which He Himself can give, not abiding by manmade traditions.

Tom said: First off: Not working on the Sabbath is hardly a “man made tradition.” Such written rules on both stone and paper come directly from God to Moses. So you need to stop making such absurd comments.

Second: Jesus NEVER used the phrase “spiritual rest.” He NEVER even said the word “spiritual”! So why do you dare pretend he did? Why did you insist in trying to place false words in Jesus mouth and false doctrines in his head?

Moreover, Jesus only used the word “rest” (in your context) about 3 times. And none of these had anything to do with the Sabbath.

In addition, there is no such phrase in the entire Bible as “Spiritual Rest”! You are just making things up to protect this double-talk called NCT.

So you are a great liar and blasphemer. Jesus DOES NOT “talk” about a “Sabbath rest” or even say the words “Spiritual Rest,” much less that he has fulfilled the Sabbath and abolished it. NCT is a great deception. It is clearly against Christ and the Word. No Christian can repudiate and misunderstand the Gospel teachings of Christ, and still remain a follower of Christ. It is impossible.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Your views show that you do not comprehend the most basic points of the Gospel, and that you have no intention of learning or repenting. Just like the SDA’s who trained you. Pity.

Does the entire NCT crowd also act so incompetent, hypocritical and cultic? I think they may. This is the way of cults. They find some point and then try to get all others to follow, regardless of the facts.

NCT is garbage. It can only be supported by delusions and absurd proof texting, even to the extent of making up phrases and dishonestly twisting the Words of Jesus and the apostles to say the OPPOSITE of what they meant.

Let all run from this worthless double-talk!

Bob2 said: Show me in the Bible where the original law condemned healing on the Sabbath as work.

Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, are you for real? Have you never read the OT or the 4th Commandment? Healing is work according to the Jews, regardless how you, a Gentile, feel about it in the 21st century.

In other words, this discussion is not about your opinions, or mine, but only the facts. It is the Jews that determine what is work and who can do it on the Sabbath. Not you or anyone today. So stop trying to make up points and slip it into this discussion. Here are the facts:

Ex. 31:12 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying,

Ex. 31:13 “But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Ex. 31:16 ‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’

Ex. 31:17 “It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”

Ex. 31:18 When He had finished speaking with him upon Mount Sinai, He gave Moses the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written by the finger of God.

Not only was there to be no healing, there was to be no fires or cooking on the Sabbath. UNDER PAIN OF DEATH!

In the OC, no work, meant no work, (except for the Levites). The healers had no specific exemption. And if you think they did, then the burden of proof is on you to go find the evidence. Go ahead; show us the proof of your theory? You cannot prove these absurd positions because they are not true.

The Sabbath was so strict and limiting, that it required another day to make it tolerable, Friday. This is why there had to be a Preparation Day. Otherwise, there would be no food.

Under such strict rules, why would anyone think the healers were allowed to travel around and treat their patients, while no others were allowed to cook or light fires or travel? This makes no sense.

Only if this class were Levites could your theory make some sense. But the healers were not Levites. Thus those that practiced medicine and healing (such as it was), had to follow the same non working Sabbath law like everyone else –on pain of death!

Ex. 35:1 Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, “These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do:

Ex. 35:2 “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Ex. 35:3 “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

Moreover, it was not just healing that is the subject of the Sabbath debates. There was harvesting, preparing food, traveling, moving furniture (a bed), making (mining) medicine, (clay mixture for the blind man).

While the Jews had an exemption for healers to work on the Sabbath if the life of the patient was at risk, Jesus’ healings went far beyond this line. This is why we see Jesus selecting those with long time ailments, which were NOT emergencies. Like the man by the pool, and the man born blind.

These healings were not a matter of life or death, and thus any treatment was forbidden on the Sabbath. But this is the point. Jesus was trying to teach a very different view of the Sabbath. He wanted to make sure that everyone knew he was dramatically reforming the doctrine of the Sabbath as well as the entire Priesthood, even the Temple.

John 5:2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porticoes.

John 5:3 In these lay a multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame, and withered, waiting for the moving of the waters;

John 5:4 for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool and stirred up the water; whoever then first, after the stirring up of the water, stepped in was made well from whatever disease with which he was afflicted.]

John 5:5 A man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years.

John 5:6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He *said to him, “Do you wish to get well?”

John 5:7 The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me.”

John 5:8 Jesus *said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”

John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

Jesus was not operating a 911 service for the Jews. He was not looking to treat emergencies, (which are permitted on the Sabbath). This is why he selects those who are not supposed to be treated or healed on the Sabbath.

John 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.

John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”

John 9:3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

John 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

John 9:6 When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes,

John 9:7 and said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

Again, Jesus selects a disfigured woman to heal on the Sabbath who is not in an emergency situation. She has had this problem for 18 years, but her condition is not bad enough to keep her from attending the synagogue or living her life. This was no emergency.

Luke 13:10 And He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.

Luke 13:11 And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all.

Luke 13:12 When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your sickness.”

Luke 13:13 And He laid His hands on her; and immediately she was made erect again and began glorifying God.

Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”

Jesus was purposely breaking the Sabbath rules for all to see, even as he would also explain that he was teaching a new (covenant) Sabbath from God the Father. Those that ignore or repudiate Jesus Gospel, which includes his reformed Sabbath teaching, are doomed.

Here is some info about Ancient Healing in Judaism:

Ancient Jewish Healers:

The Jewish doctor's medical thinking was steeped in moralistic principles. To aid the sick and to preserve life, these constituted the ultimate expression of piety; love for man was complementary to love for G-d. Therefore, to treat a very sick patient (Gentile as well as Jew) on the Sabbath was considered not only no violation of that holy day on which all work was forbidden. Quite the contrary, it was in fact, esteemed as an act of great merit. No law of humanity ever exceeded in simple nobility the formulation of this oral tradition in the Mishnah.

http://www.buddychai.com/Religion/Healers.html

While there was an exemption, which allowed the Levites to work on the Sabbath, Jesus was not a Levite. Thus he could never be allowed to practice medicine, (such as it was) on the Sabbath, regardless. Only in a life and death emergency, would anyone be able to avoid the guilt of the law.

However, Jesus was not treating emergencies on the Sabbath, but long held defects that were not even life threatening. He did this to make sure everyone understood his Reformed Sabbath, which stunned the Jews and took them by complete surprise. And so it will today.

See: THE BIBLIOGRAPHY OF ANCIENT HEBREW MEDICINE

Unlike the Egyptians with their extreme specialization, the Hebrew doctor was a general practitioner, physician and surgeon.

In the Psalms(147:3) God is the Healer who "healeth the broken in heart and bindeth up their wounds". The word for physician was Rophe, which is derived from "to relieve", "to soften", (not as some suggest from "to sew").

The physician is the divine agent. There was a distinction among physicians; some are spoken of as "proved" or "expert", probably signifying "licensed" for it was taught that only one who is competent, should treat the sick, so that "the healer become not the murderer!"

No fatalistic view concerning disease and its cure prevailed; on the contrary, the Biblical statute (Exod. 21:19) of compensation for in- jury, that he whose fault it is "shall cause him (the injured) to be thoroughly healed," made medical care a duty! The Talmudic teachers looked upon the care of health and the cure of disease as paramount duties and permitted violations of religious ordinances for the sake of the sick. (Hullin10a)

Beside physicians, there were blood-leters, mid-wives, and circumcisers among the ancient Hebrews. Priests were not physicians; in their relation to leprosy, priests acted like the Health Officers of England. A few of the prophets appear to have had some medical knowledge (Elisha, Isaiah) but none is called physician.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article … 7-0003.pdf

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