You are not logged in.
Hey, guys, what do you think happens after this proclaimation and Jesus coming:
Rev 22:11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
At some point sin ends. Even if you believe we sin until..... Jesus comes????
Offline
Tom,
Who, do you think, outfitted with hard hat, pick and shovel, is going to enter the inner caves of the White Estate and dig out the post 1888 Ellen White for you?
The Silver Springs crowd is busy plugging the holes in the church's foundation with Finley and Boonstra as they rush from coast to coast every summer - and those camp meeting tents are becoming less and less crowded every year, where the brown heads are the compliments of Clairol, and the 21st century version of what looks like the flower children of bygone days are there for oat burgers and soy milk.
What mechanism of the church is going to take this job when graduates from Andrews are scrambling to find pulpits and are carefully wording their applications to secure jobs? The rest are silently rushing between their two to three "and sometimes five" churches every Sabbath, grateful they have a job.
All that's left is you, crying in the cyber wilderness; and you could use a brand new thesaurus to spike up your posts - and possibly a nice vacation.
Offline
It's sad to watch this repair job go on from year to year. Guys like Ford , Norris , and Sorensen differing over the impossible task of trying to patch the holes in the leaky roof of SDAism while all the time the problem is the foundation built on shifting sand.
1843, then the spring of 44, then the fall etc. was supposed to be the coming of the Lord. Of course, in order for that to take place, the three angels message of Rev. 14 and the angel of Rev 18 also would have had to sound before the closed door;. This message would have to go around the world first. The signs would have to be in the heavens. The Great time of trouble would have been ongoing and the sequence of plagues falling.
So, of course, to hold the building together the three angels message had to be prominent in the SDA message with the soon coming and get ready, get ready, get ready drum beating loudly.
Miller was preaching the 1st angel, but all the other prophetic fullfillments were missing. When he realized that he was in error, he humbly walked away, as did thousands of others.
The whole fiasco was premature, and still is. The "writings" were built along the already designed framework of the bible and like a paint by numbers piece of artwork it was only a matter of gleaning the commentary of many Spirit filled Christians starting at Genesis and proceeding on through Revelation. Other writings were gleaned from current health teachings of the day. Still other were of a design that she did not follow herself and/or contradicted herself in.
False Christs and false prophets shall arise and show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the very elect.
2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
In the Church, women are not to hold authority over men. See: 1Tim 2:12. To do so is to confuse Heaven's system of order. For anyone to try to say that Ellen G. White held no authority over the Church, which included directives to men, is to not be dealing with reality.
The time of trouble, the 144,000 with the final warning, the three angels messages are yet to come. They were never a part of the false prophecies of 1843, 1844 etc. There was never any judgement starting then either. That teaching defies biblical confirmation. The rightous are not the ones who come into judgement anyway. It's all bunk!
Satan does not come to decieve with mediocre teachings, he comes with powerful deceptions using powerful twisting of scripture. He knows the bible and what it portrays better than we do.
When Daniel did not understand, he waited until he recieved clarity on it. He didn't go teaching any "I was showns" and then have to retract them. Or teach something and then say that he was confused because he couldn't understand the language of heaven when any thing he claimed was truth was eventually proved to be error.
If you want to believe that God chose a woman that couldn't understand the saving message of the Gospel to start His remnant Church, then you believe in a God that loves confusion.
If you believe in a God who uses a man that was a 33 degree Royal Arch Mason to lay out His prophecy, go ahead. What does God have to do with Satan? Does he have to go to a satanic organization to find a faithful soul to bring end time light, a soul, that then does not persevere with it? If you want to believe in a God that isn't smart enough to choose the right end time messenger, go ahead. I would hope He'd be more careful, due to the importance of it all. After all, peoples eternal lives are at stake here.
Cadge
Offline
on the mediator issue Bob wrote: "To bad we can't study the Bible on these topics instead of what she said. Eh???
Indeed we can Bob, we just have to use it before we analyze Ellen White. The Bible says:
Heb 7:25 NIV Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Ellen White has nothing for her statement except that some give her authority to contradict the Bible. Those are the ones who don't care if she supplies extra Biblical information. But then again that whole probation close is more of that extra Biblical fiction. It is a great case study in how something that seems so minor can lead to such huge errors.
Offline
Don Sands said: I am looking forward to Tom's answer on this. ... To be fair to the process, I chose the relevant sections (minus two paragraphs in the middle) and returned an email asking if my decision suited their request. It did. Now, I could say, "Look, they are hiding something." Or, I could say, "Look, how careful they are to manage sensitive material."
Tom said: Today, the White Estate is trying to act professional and polite. They have legions that hate them, and thus they are trying to keep a low profile. They would prefer to forget Arthur White and Glacier View and live in denial about the past. This is why the church now promotes Pluralism.
But what criminal enterprise would not like to pretend they are innocent? The church has made millions, even billions on this fraud. Now that it is not so profitable, they have little appetite for TA. Which means, it was all about the money, and still is.
Don said: I imagine that there are many letters still not released. What we make of such is a matter of trust, I suppose.
Tom said: Today, I think most everything has been released. But so what? Few have any idea what to make of all this material. And that is just fine with the White Estate. They thrive on confusion and double-talk. They are content to let everyone remain confused and perplexed about Ellen White. Because to straighten out this mess, is to condemn the White Estate. So they prefer the present chaos.
As for trust, the White Estate deserves none. They have been a criminal enterprise for years. They have not confessed or repented in the slightest. Nor have they corrected the record. They refuse to discuss the issues, even as they routinely deny any wrongdoing. But none of this will work any longer. They have been caught, and they must face up to what they have done and correct the record. Period.
This is what both Ellen and James would want to happen. They want the truth to be known about Ellen White, and if the White Estate has to be dragged into court for this to happen, the so be it. The truth is going to become public regardless of the efforts of the White Estate to ignore the issues.
Don said: It is easy to fan the flames of distrust. "Imagine what they are holding back," etc. Now, Tom has been there. He saw practices and decisions with which he did not agree. That is different.
Tom said: I discovered a crime in the White Estate. Period. I confronted the leaders and they could not deny the facts. So they just covered it all up and pretended that they did nothing wrong.
I was a young man at the time, not even 30 years old when all this took place. I am almost twice that age now, and I know what must be done. The White Estate is not going to get away with this crime. They are running out of time to avoid a class action suite.
Don said: In my own experience with the White Estate, a whole two episodes, I have found them to be open and forthright.
Tom said: No doubt if you dealt with the Madoff firm for the last 40 years, they too would be very professional and apparently open and forthright. But all the while, they were pulling off the greatest Ponzi scam in history. Billions of dollars vanished with a smile. So criminals can be very polite and professional. That is part of their plan, that is part of the scam. So don't be fooled with the smiles of the guilty.
If you want to test the White Estate about truth and honesty, why not confront them about Adventist Reform? Why not ask them to explain why they were hiding so many documents in their vaults until 7 years AFTER Glacier View? See how polite they are when you try and deal with the real issues?
Ask them why they have refused to come online and discuss the issues with Tom Norris? What are they afraid of?
Why are they so fearful of having an open and public discussion about Ellen White and her writings? I would love to hear their answer.
Don said: The other, a minor concern to some (not me): I noted that one released manuscript used the pronoun "it" for the Holy Spirit while another used "He". I think this was a letter EGW had written to Haskell. I emailed a question to the White Estate asking why the difference. They admitted that at one point the people at the Estate considered it their task to make these minor adjustments.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. At what point, did the "people at the White Estate," meaning Arthur White, thought it was their task to hide thousands of documents so that they could manipulate Ellen White to say whatever they wanted her to say. The also wrote on original documents, took things out of context, and broke most every rule of Archival protocol. There is no excuse for what has gone on in the White Estate and it is time that this place is cleaned up and the truth told.
Don said: Then, they came to realize that it was not their task to make such adjustments. They returned the "it" to the document released. Now, it bothers me that the people at the White Estate could ever think that way.
Tom said: Ha! When did they realize it was wrong to hide documents and fabricate Ellen White's life story? No doubt it was after Arthur White was gone and Tom Norris had caught him in a massive scam? But the damage has already been done.
Besides, where is the confession for all this error and fraud? Where are the corrections? They refuse to make such a confession or correct the record. This is very wrong. It will not stand.
Don said: After all, EGW's writings are not only "inspired", they are a matter of history. To change even these small items in the record is to tamper with the historical record; at least the released part. They did not tamper with the actual letter kept in the files.
Tom said: While it is very dishonest for any archivist to change historical documents, it is even worse to hide thousands of them so that a fabricated story could be published and sold to the public. This is called consumer fraud. It is illegal. It is a crime. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise that must be cleaned up. Period.
Don said: This is not totally unique. The Greek manuscripts of the New Testament don't always read exactly the same. There are variants; some accidental and others intended.
Tom said: Don, there was never any serious attempt by the White Estate to be honest with Ellen White's writings or church history. They never tried to understand what she was saying or why. In fact, they were far more interested in hiding her documents and keeping everyone away from them. This is so wrong, that it boggles the mind.
From the very beginning of the Takoma Park White Estate, there was an official and stern policy of suppression and fraud. It did not develop gradually or over time. No. It was policy from the very top. Young Arthur White just did what he was told. Then he grew up and became a cultic monster, and no one, not even Froom, could control him.
So this entire plan of Daniels to temporarily hide the 1888 Story took on a life of its own. This is the root cause for all the confusion about Ellen White. This is why the truth must be told and the record corrected.
Don said: Regarding Ellen White's writings, my appeal, and apparently the present generation at the White Estate agrees, "You are not only managing a spiritual trust, you are managing an historical one. Even if the spiritual trust seems to be in conflict with the historical one, the historical one must prevail."
Tom said: I agree with this position. But it comes a little late to save the White Estate. If they have decided to start telling the truth, then they need to go back to the beginning and confess what has taken place. Then they need to correct the record. This is the only way to judge their intentions today and see if they are going to be honest.
At this point, they are still trying cover up a massive fraud and pretend they are innocent. They are still trying to protect not only Arthur White's reputation, but also the fraud of TA, which Glacier View made official.
Maggie Bockmann said: It's not as though we're responding to an ordinary individual. This woman gave us messages from God's lips to our ears, and we ignored them on pain of the fate of Korah.
Tom said: Ha! I see you are still letting Arthur White control your mind. The 19th century Ellen White does not have either the authority or the power that you have assumed for her. Until you can expel Arthur White from your mind, you will never understand the historical Ellen White.
Maggie said: And...for forty-four years, she marched us around the desert of legalism.
Tom said: Wrong. While we were all taught that Ellen White was the leader and spiritual guide for the SDA's in Battle Creek, this was never true. Her role has been greatly exaggerated and embellished by the White Estate, which is why they need to correct the record.
Maggie said: When, with help from presumably less-inspired friends, she saw the light that Luther saw in the sixteenth century, she demonized the brethren who were only continuing the "inspired" path she had only recently trod and promoted.
Tom said: You should be glad that Ellen White finally understood the Gospel and repudiated character perfection. All should rejoice at her strong stand in favor of the Gospel. Too bad the White Estate covered it up. Too bad the highest leaders made it a policy to hide Ellen White's involvement with the 1888 debates. What a mistake this has turned out to be.
Maggie said: The Adventists boasted that they were progressing the Protestant Reformation. The "Fallen Churches" saw through that, and that's why they were so labeled.
Tom said: Adventism addressed and corrected some serious eschatological errors. This is a fact. It is wrong to think otherwise. If they do nothing else, they still have a place in church history. They can still point to some reforms that have endured and that were correct.
Maggie said: There is no way to sort this out but for SDA's to individuate and think for themselves.
Tom said: Wrong. The facts of history are what they are. It should not require independent thinking to understand such things. But it does require some discipline and independent thinking to separate the facts of history from myths and propaganda.
It is not difficult to understand SDA history if one has the facts. The problem is that the White Estate hid the facts and manipulated the record. They lied about both history and doctrine, thus confusing the church and leading it into schism.
Shame on the White Estate. And shame on anyone that supports them today. The true record has been found. 30 years ago. It's just that the White Estate does not want anyone to know what they have done. They are embarrassed for good reason. So they covered up the 1979 discovery of their fraud. You only know about it because I went online and laid it all out in detail. Had it not been for Tom Norris, no one would know any of this.
This is why the church leaders destroyed two SDA Forums; they don't want people to know what they have done. They don't want to go to jail, nor do they want to be viewed as corrupt liars. They like things the way they are-with themselves in control of a billion dollar enterprise. It works fine for them, but the Advent Community, including the Pioneers, is getting a bad deal.
Maggie said: Ellen White left a mess that cannot be sorted out without doing violence to one's mental and moral faculties, IMO.
Tom said: Speak for yourself, not for me.
Many years ago I decided to try and "sort it all out" and succeeded in doing so.
I found the missing documents and caught Arthur White in the act of a crime. I have sorted this mess out, in detail. Much to the dismay of the White Estate. They were hoping no one would ever discover the truth. But it was a false hope.
At the time, I was naïve and trusting. Little did I know that the church was so dishonest and corrupt that they never wanted the facts anyway. Little did I know that were going to cover up the discovery as soon as I walked out the door. The White Estate never cared what Ellen White said; they had their own agenda. This is why they hid this dramatic discovery, which was no discovery to them, and continued on to ambush Dr. Ford at Glacier View. The facts made no difference to them, and neither did Ellen White.
I have the facts and I understand the history associated with Ellen White's life, and her writings. It is very different from what the White Estate has promoted all these years.
Pauli K. Heikkinen observed; IMHO 40 years in denomination will leave its permanent marks to one's faculties, quite independent of one's leaving the fold or remaining there,
Tom said: 40 years of association with anything will leave a permanent imprint. Not just with the SDA's. Too bad that so many years of Adventism will leave a negative outcome, if not a damaged brain. This is the way of all cults, and this is what the SDA's are until they confess and reform.
Pauli said: How much I've mentally, morally, intellectually, economically etc forfeited to the denomination?
Tom said: So many have sacrificed so much for the Advent Cause. What a pity that it has gone corrupt and has become worse than worthless. But regardless, they did give us a much-improved version of eschatology, as well as Corn Flakes and Veggie Burgers. It could have been worse.
Don Sands said: I agree that thinking for one's self is key.
Tom said: No. The NT does not teach such a doctrine.
Rom. 15:5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
Rom. 15:6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cor. 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.
These passages teach the opposite of "independent thinking." Rather, Paul is calling for unity of thought and doctrine. The goal of the church is to think like Jesus, which is to have the mind of Christ.
1Cor. 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1Cor. 2:15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
1Cor. 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
Religious faith must rest on solid evidence. Our thinking is not evidence.
Moreover, when it comes to doctrine, we are not to think but believe. There is only one Gospel, regardless how many think they have discovered another version. They are just fooling themselves because doctrine cannot be established by independent thinking. Rather, the key is to follow the Word and understand the Gospel. Thus the goal is to think like Paul or think like Jesus, and to have their minds.
There is no such thing as "independent thinking" in the church when it comes to doctrine or prophecy. This is the talk of Pluralism, division, and schism.
2Pet. 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
2Pet. 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
2Pet. 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
The Gospel calls for the church to think like Christ, and to become unified on Gospel doctrine, including prophecy. There is no call for "independent or creative thinking." In fact, there is a warning against such people. The church must strive to think like Christ and thus reflect his mind, not ours.
Phil. 1:27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Phil. 2:2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Phil. 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
The NT is full of instruction about how we are to think and act. There is no such thing as thinking for ourselves in these matters. No, we must follow the thinking of Jesus and the Apostles, even as we use our minds to avoid the many frauds that abound.
Col. 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col. 3:2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
Col. 3:3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col. 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Peter was famous for his independent thinking and strong leadership. But every time he tried to show his courage or brilliance, it would often blow up in his face. Note the response of Jesus when Peter tried to interfere with the unfolding of the Gospel. Peter was thinking for himself, as he determined to protect Jesus from harm.
But Peter was not thinking like Jesus. Nor did he know what to think about the Gospel, even though he thought he had it all figured out.
Matt. 16:22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.”
Matt. 16:23 But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
Peter would continue to think incorrectly, as the book of Galatians proves.
Bob Shields said: How can one say that they think for themselves and hold to the belief that Mrs. White's council was from God and must be followed or at least some semblance of following?
Tom said: First off, the historical facts do not support what you assume. Ellen White's contemporaries did not embrace this view that she "must be followed." Not only was this not the case, but Andrews underscored the opposite point by proving her wrong in the 1850's. He DID NOT follow her, and he stood up and let everyone know it.
At the end of the day, he prevailed. The fact that the White Estate suppressed this history, is beside the point. We are discussing the real Ellen White, not defending the fraudulent version from the White Estate. You need to understand the difference.
Moreover, Ellen White was not responsible for any doctrine. The Sabbath, as well as all the other Pillars, came from others. She discovered no doctrine.
Don’t confuse what all 20th century SDA's were taught by the White Estate with the 19th century facts. They are very different. You need to ask the White Estate why they forgot to inform you about J.N. Andrews and Ellen White. See what they say?
Bob said: She was famous for whipping the brethren into compliance with her wishes. How could/can anyone grow by making their own mistakes when they were/are under her control?
Tom said: The fact of the matter is this: It was James White who did most of the screaming at people. He was far stronger than was his wife, and he is the one that ruled and controlled the young church by fear and intimidation. And guess what? The White Estate has known this forever. It was hardly a secret that James White was a tough and no-nonsense leader that yelled and screamed often. Ellen White represents the softer side of that couple.
So you need to remove the myths of Arthur White from your mind so you can understand the historic Ellen White. I know it is difficult, but it must be done. And at some point, the White Estate will correct the record, by force or otherwise. This would help many.
Bob said: "Good" Adventists are nothing but robots to the system. They are judged by how well they comply with the council of Ellen.
Tom said: You are describing the 20th century TSDA's. This is what they were taught. This is how the modern TSDA's acted. But it is not how the Battle Creek TSDA's viewed Ellen White. They did not have a White Estate, and they did not view things the way Arthur White would later. In fact, after James White died, Uriah Smith was far more powerful and influential then Ellen White. And he never thought of Ellen White in the same manner, as did Arthur White.
This is why the 19th century leaders could so easily dismiss and exile her. She was not viewed as a super prophet at all. They did not think she had any authority like the Bible writers, because she never did. So they pushed her out of Battle Creek, and she had no power to resist.
Bob said: For the 44 years that Mrs. White taught the falsehood of legalism, how many went to their graves not ever knowing the real joy of living a vibrant Christian life? What a pity and yet she is revered by some.
Tom said: This is not fair. You could say that about the apostolic church too. How many years did it take for them to let the Gentiles have access to the Gospel? How many people went to their graves thinking there was no salvation for them?
Falsehood is present at every phase of church development, and thus there is nothing unique taking place in the Adventist Community. So you need to have some historical perspective.
Besides, the SDA's were Protestant. And they did not teach legalism right away. It was a gradual result of promoting the Sabbath.
By the 1870's, they were indeed teaching legalism. And it got worse in the 1880's, which is why someone stood up in 1886 and protested. This is what made E. J. Waggoner famous. Then Ellen White embraced Gospel Reform. It is a great story that mirrors the past development of the church.
The fact that all this was covered up and not explained honestly or correctly is beside the point. It is the facts we want to deal with, not myth and historical fraud.
Bob said: Those Adventists who deny her council, but still support the church are doing a real disfavor to those new souls who blindly buy into the system and are taught that she is God's special messenger.
Tom said: Today, no one should support SDA doctrine or the corrupt hierarchy. Tithe is an outrageously false doctrine, and thus no one should ever practice this scam, which supports a corrupt religious hierarchy. The SDA church is full of error and historical fraud. This is why the record must be corrected and leaders must repent.
Bob said: When I realized she was not all the church taught she was, I stopped proselytizing and withdrew my support.
Tom said: Many people have done this. This is why Walter Rea also left the church. Millions have left because they realize that the church was not being honest about Ellen White or the Gospel. Who can blame them? Not me! The SDA church is going to collapse if they refuse to repent and correct the record. It is just this simple.
Sirje Walkowiak said: When I first started to study on my own, trying to "nail down" SDA teachings, only to find that they could not be found in the Bible, I asked a pastor/friend what one should do if they have earnestly prayed for guidance but found that the Bible disagrees with EGW. His response was to pray again. In other words, pray until the Bible agrees with EGW.
Tom said: Listen very carefully; this would not have happened in Battle Creek. In fact, had this been the case, the church today would have still thought that the Sabbath started and ended at 6 pm.
J. N. Andrews proved that Ellen White did not have any doctrinal authority. Thus if you had a doctrinal issue in Battle Creek, no one would have told you to "pray, until you agreed with Ellen White's view." Not one of them! Rather, they would have studied the problem and reached a conclusion based on the Bible. Which is exactly what happened, on the record, for all to see.
And Guess what? During this process of BIBLE STUDY they discovered that Ellen White's views, as well as her own interpretation of her visions, were WRONG. So they all made the necessary corrections. She was proven wrong in public, and thus she also switched her views in front of all.
This historic account represents the opposite of what all 20th century SDA's were taught. Once again proving that the White Estate is the cause of great trouble and deceit. They are great deceivers.
Elaine Nelson said: I don't recall her coming right out and saying, "I was wrong."
Tom said: No doubt that is because the White Estate would never highlight such history. The story about JN Andrews was well known to the White Estate, but who has ever heard of it? Not many. Why? Because it disproves what they were trying to promote about Ellen White.
Who knows what else is in the vault about this? There is much more research that needs to be done about Ellen White. I was only in there for a few months, and I was only focused on the 1888 period. There is much work yet to be done in the White Estate.
Elaine said: Nor should it be expected of a prophet. Her status would go down the tubes had she ever admitted to a mistake or being wrong. (Even I was wrong once---I think).
Tom said: You have missed the point. The Andrews situation forced Ellen White to admit she was wrong about the Sabbath. Did her status "go down the tubes" as a result? Not at all. So you, like many others, are ignoring the facts and embracing White Estates propaganda. Can you admit that you are wrong about this?
Don Sands said: Now, I don't view Ellen White's counsels as "marching us around a desert of legalism".
Tom said: The Ellen White of the White Estate is very guilty of leading the Advent people in dishonest circles. But not the real EW of history. It was really Arthur White, pretending to be Ellen White.
Thus the SDA's today are going to have to look at the evidence to determine the truth of the charges that are being leveled against the White Estate. They would be foolish to let this church institution refuse to answer the questions or get away with this monstrous fraud. Thinking people want the real answers. While the guilty want no investigation.
Every thinking SDA should want to see an open and honest investigation of the White Estate. Why is this topic never discussed? Why is this possibility never pushed forward?
There has been a private investigation by Tom Norris, and there will also be a public one by the civil authorities if they do not repent. The White Estate has been caught and their only option is to confess and correct the record. If they need to be forced. So be it.
Don said: As a Christian, I think for myself in the presence of Jesus who is in the presence of Almighty God. But, even in their presence, I think for myself. Part of thinking for myself is having a teachable spirit.
Tom said: Forget this idea about thinking for oneself. When it comes to Gospel doctrine, we are totally dependent on the Apostles. Thus their Word is what we must think about, not our own ideas.
A true Christian will think the thoughts of Christ and have his mind. Those that "think for themselves" about doctrine, rarely think like God.
This recent idea that SDA's should now view church history by thinking for ourselves is nonsense. This is really code for giving the White Estate a pass, and winking at the myths we were all taught. That is not right. These myths must be identified and removed, and the record corrected.
The church should not have to try and "think" about what Ellen White believed and what she did not. We can know for certain what she said and what she did not say. We can know for certain what she would think of TA, and it is very different from what we have all been taught.
History is what it is. Not what we think it should be. The SDA Community is owed the facts. They deserve to know the truth about Ellen White, even if it means that the church has been perpetrating a massive and wicked fraud on everyone. While this is immensely embarrassing, and full of legal implications and damages that are staggering, that is the price of sin. There are consequences for wrongdoing, and the White Estate has yet to understand this fact.
Sirje Walkowiak said: No, think for yourself, Don Sands. As did I and so, here I am. This happened when I was totally immersed in Adventism and found what I was discovering very upsetting; but I couldn't deny what was right in front of my face as I studied on my own.
Tom said: While none of us are authorized to think up doctrine, we must use our minds to understand truth versus error. So here is where "thinking for oneself" is proper and necessary. Not to invent doctrine, but to honestly tell the difference between solid evidence and nonsense. We must think for ourselves to make the right choices when it comes to the evidence of our faith, as well as judge the credibility of those who teach us.
Those that work for the church are blind to the evidence that others see. Those paid by the church are not thinking for themselves, but allowing their employers to pass judgment on both evidence and doctrine. Their minds are directed away from the facts, even as fear and coercion is applied. This is also why a hierarchy is so wrong. Those at the top live to control those below, and thus all are forced to think a certain, false way.
Sirje said: It's not that easy to "follow the lamb wherever he goes". Sometimes he goes right out the door, and you wish he didn't.
Tom said: Don't cry just for the SDA's. Every church and denomination in the world has been judged wrong, blind, and worthless at the end of time. This is what the LM is saying. Jesus wants to lead people out of every one of them.
But where is the true Gospel church in the last days? Where is the final Gospel church that fully represents Jesus?
It does not exist as yet.
The true church will be the one that responds to the words of Jesus and repents, and reforms. So far, they are all going their own way, including and especially the SDA's.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris, who knows the real Ellen White
Offline
Don Sands said: I am looking forward to Tom's answer on this. ... To be fair to the process, I chose the relevant sections (minus two paragraphs in the middle) and returned an email asking if my decision suited their request. It did. Now, I could say, "Look, they are hiding something." Or, I could say, "Look, how careful they are to manage sensitive material."
Tom said: Today, the White Estate is trying to act professional and polite. They have legions that hate them, and thus they are trying to keep a low profile. They would prefer to forget Arthur White and Glacier View and live in denial about the past. This is why the church now promotes Pluralism.
But what criminal enterprise would not like to pretend they are innocent? The church has made millions, even billions on this fraud. Now that it is not so profitable, they have little appetite for TA. Which means, it was all about the money, and still is.
Don said: I imagine that there are many letters still not released. What we make of such is a matter of trust, I suppose.
Tom said: Today, I think most everything has been released. But so what? Few have any idea what to make of all this material. And that is just fine with the White Estate. They thrive on confusion and double-talk. They are content to let everyone remain confused and perplexed about Ellen White. Because to straighten out this mess, is to condemn the White Estate. So they prefer the present chaos.
As for trust, the White Estate deserves none. They have been a criminal enterprise for years. They have not confessed or repented in the slightest. Nor have they corrected the record. They refuse to discuss the issues, even as they routinely deny any wrongdoing. But none of this will work any longer. They have been caught, and they must face up to what they have done and correct the record. Period.
This is what both Ellen and James would want to happen. They want the truth to be known about Ellen White, and if the White Estate has to be dragged into court for this to happen, the so be it. The truth is going to become public regardless of the efforts of the White Estate to ignore the issues.
Don said: It is easy to fan the flames of distrust. "Imagine what they are holding back," etc. Now, Tom has been there. He saw practices and decisions with which he did not agree. That is different.
Tom said: I discovered a crime in the White Estate. Period. I confronted the leaders and they could not deny the facts. So they just covered it all up and pretended that they did nothing wrong.
I was a young man at the time, not even 30 years old when all this took place. I am almost twice that age now, and I know what must be done. The White Estate is not going to get away with this crime. They are running out of time to avoid a class action suite.
Don said: In my own experience with the White Estate, a whole two episodes, I have found them to be open and forthright.
Tom said: No doubt if you dealt with the Madoff firm for the last 40 years, they too would be very professional and apparently open and forthright. But all the while, they were pulling off the greatest Ponzi scam in history. Billions of dollars vanished with a smile. So criminals can be very polite and professional. That is part of their plan, that is part of the scam. So don't be fooled with the smiles of the guilty.
If you want to test the White Estate about truth and honesty, why not confront them about Adventist Reform? Why not ask them to explain why they were hiding so many documents in their vaults until 7 years AFTER Glacier View? See how polite they are when you try and deal with the real issues?
Ask them why they have refused to come online and discuss the issues with Tom Norris? What are they afraid of?
Why are they so fearful of having an open and public discussion about Ellen White and her writings? I would love to hear their answer.
Don said: The other, a minor concern to some (not me): I noted that one released manuscript used the pronoun "it" for the Holy Spirit while another used "He". I think this was a letter EGW had written to Haskell. I emailed a question to the White Estate asking why the difference. They admitted that at one point the people at the Estate considered it their task to make these minor adjustments.
Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. At what point, did the "people at the White Estate," meaning Arthur White, thought it was their task to hide thousands of documents so that they could manipulate Ellen White to say whatever they wanted her to say. The also wrote on original documents, took things out of context, and broke most every rule of Archival protocol. There is no excuse for what has gone on in the White Estate and it is time that this place is cleaned up and the truth told.
Don said: Then, they came to realize that it was not their task to make such adjustments. They returned the "it" to the document released. Now, it bothers me that the people at the White Estate could ever think that way.
Tom said: Ha! When did they realize it was wrong to hide documents and fabricate Ellen White's life story? No doubt it was after Arthur White was gone and Tom Norris had caught him in a massive scam? But the damage has already been done.
Besides, where is the confession for all this error and fraud? Where are the corrections? They refuse to make such a confession or correct the record. This is very wrong. It will not stand.
Don said: After all, EGW's writings are not only "inspired", they are a matter of history. To change even these small items in the record is to tamper with the historical record; at least the released part. They did not tamper with the actual letter kept in the files.
Tom said: While it is very dishonest for any archivist to change historical documents, it is even worse to hide thousands of them so that a fabricated story could be published and sold to the public. This is called consumer fraud. It is illegal. It is a crime. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise that must be cleaned up. Period.
Don said: This is not totally unique. The Greek manuscripts of the New Testament don't always read exactly the same. There are variants; some accidental and others intended.
Tom said: Don, there was never any serious attempt by the White Estate to be honest with Ellen White's writings or church history. They never tried to understand what she was saying or why. In fact, they were far more interested in hiding her documents and keeping everyone away from them. This is so wrong, that it boggles the mind.
From the very beginning of the Takoma Park White Estate, there was an official and stern policy of suppression and fraud. It did not develop gradually or over time. No. It was policy from the very top. Young Arthur White just did what he was told. Then he grew up and became a cultic monster, and no one, not even Froom, could control him.
So this entire plan of Daniels to temporarily hide the 1888 Story took on a life of its own. This is the root cause for all the confusion about Ellen White. This is why the truth must be told and the record corrected.
Don said: Regarding Ellen White's writings, my appeal, and apparently the present generation at the White Estate agrees, "You are not only managing a spiritual trust, you are managing an historical one. Even if the spiritual trust seems to be in conflict with the historical one, the historical one must prevail."
Tom said: I agree with this position. But it comes a little late to save the White Estate. If they have decided to start telling the truth, then they need to go back to the beginning and confess what has taken place. Then they need to correct the record. This is the only way to judge their intentions today and see if they are going to be honest.
At this point, they are still trying cover up a massive fraud and pretend they are innocent. They are still trying to protect not only Arthur White's reputation, but also the fraud of TA, which Glacier View made official.
Maggie Bockmann said: It's not as though we're responding to an ordinary individual. This woman gave us messages from God's lips to our ears, and we ignored them on pain of the fate of Korah.
Tom said: Ha! I see you are still letting Arthur White control your mind. The 19th century Ellen White does not have either the authority or the power that you have assumed for her. Until you can expel Arthur White from your mind, you will never understand the historical Ellen White.
Maggie said: And...for forty-four years, she marched us around the desert of legalism.
Tom said: Wrong. While we were all taught that Ellen White was the leader and spiritual guide for the SDA's in Battle Creek, this was never true. Her role has been greatly exaggerated and embellished by the White Estate, which is why they need to correct the record.
Maggie said: When, with help from presumably less-inspired friends, she saw the light that Luther saw in the sixteenth century, she demonized the brethren who were only continuing the "inspired" path she had only recently trod and promoted.
Tom said: You should be glad that Ellen White finally understood the Gospel and repudiated character perfection. All should rejoice at her strong stand in favor of the Gospel. Too bad the White Estate covered it up. Too bad the highest leaders made it a policy to hide Ellen White's involvement with the 1888 debates. What a mistake this has turned out to be.
Maggie said: The Adventists boasted that they were progressing the Protestant Reformation. The "Fallen Churches" saw through that, and that's why they were so labeled.
Tom said: Adventism addressed and corrected some serious eschatological errors. This is a fact. It is wrong to think otherwise. If they do nothing else, they still have a place in church history. They can still point to some reforms that have endured and that were correct.
Maggie said: There is no way to sort this out but for SDA's to individuate and think for themselves.
Tom said: Wrong. The facts of history are what they are. It should not require independent thinking to understand such things. But it does require some discipline and independent thinking to separate the facts of history from myths and propaganda.
It is not difficult to understand SDA history if one has the facts. The problem is that the White Estate hid the facts and manipulated the record. They lied about both history and doctrine, thus confusing the church and leading it into schism.
Shame on the White Estate. And shame on anyone that supports them today. The true record has been found. 30 years ago. It's just that the White Estate does not want anyone to know what they have done. They are embarrassed for good reason. So they covered up the 1979 discovery of their fraud. You only know about it because I went online and laid it all out in detail. Had it not been for Tom Norris, no one would know any of this.
This is why the church leaders destroyed two SDA Forums; they don't want people to know what they have done. They don't want to go to jail, nor do they want to be viewed as corrupt liars. They like things the way they are-with themselves in control of a billion dollar enterprise. It works fine for them, but the Advent Community, including the Pioneers, is getting a bad deal.
Maggie said: Ellen White left a mess that cannot be sorted out without doing violence to one's mental and moral faculties, IMO.
Tom said: Speak for yourself, not for me.
Many years ago I decided to try and "sort it all out" and succeeded in doing so.
I found the missing documents and caught Arthur White in the act of a crime. I have sorted this mess out, in detail. Much to the dismay of the White Estate. They were hoping no one would ever discover the truth. But it was a false hope.
At the time, I was naïve and trusting. Little did I know that the church was so dishonest and corrupt that they never wanted the facts anyway. Little did I know that were going to cover up the discovery as soon as I walked out the door. The White Estate never cared what Ellen White said; they had their own agenda. This is why they hid this dramatic discovery, which was no discovery to them, and continued on to ambush Dr. Ford at Glacier View. The facts made no difference to them, and neither did Ellen White.
I have the facts and I understand the history associated with Ellen White's life, and her writings. It is very different from what the White Estate has promoted all these years.
Pauli K. Heikkinen observed; IMHO 40 years in denomination will leave its permanent marks to one's faculties, quite independent of one's leaving the fold or remaining there,
Tom said: 40 years of association with anything will leave a permanent imprint. Not just with the SDA's. Too bad that so many years of Adventism will leave a negative outcome, if not a damaged brain. This is the way of all cults, and this is what the SDA's are until they confess and reform.
Pauli said: How much I've mentally, morally, intellectually, economically etc forfeited to the denomination?
Tom said: So many have sacrificed so much for the Advent Cause. What a pity that it has gone corrupt and has become worse than worthless. But regardless, they did give us a much-improved version of eschatology, as well as Corn Flakes and Veggie Burgers. It could have been worse.
Don Sands said: I agree that thinking for one's self is key.
Tom said: No. The NT does not teach such a doctrine.
Rom. 15:5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus,
Rom. 15:6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cor. 1:10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.
These passages teach the opposite of "independent thinking." Rather, Paul is calling for unity of thought and doctrine. The goal of the church is to think like Jesus, which is to have the mind of Christ.
1Cor. 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
1Cor. 2:15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
1Cor. 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
Religious faith must rest on solid evidence. Our thinking is not evidence.
Moreover, when it comes to doctrine, we are not to think but believe. There is only one Gospel, regardless how many think they have discovered another version. They are just fooling themselves because doctrine cannot be established by independent thinking. Rather, the key is to follow the Word and understand the Gospel. Thus the goal is to think like Paul or think like Jesus, and to have their minds.
There is no such thing as "independent thinking" in the church when it comes to doctrine or prophecy. This is the talk of Pluralism, division, and schism.
2Pet. 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
2Pet. 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
2Pet. 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
The Gospel calls for the church to think like Christ, and to become unified on Gospel doctrine, including prophecy. There is no call for "independent or creative thinking." In fact, there is a warning against such people. The church must strive to think like Christ and thus reflect his mind, not ours.
Phil. 1:27 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
Phil. 2:2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Phil. 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
The NT is full of instruction about how we are to think and act. There is no such thing as thinking for ourselves in these matters. No, we must follow the thinking of Jesus and the Apostles, even as we use our minds to avoid the many frauds that abound.
Col. 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col. 3:2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
Col. 3:3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col. 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
Peter was famous for his independent thinking and strong leadership. But every time he tried to show his courage or brilliance, it would often blow up in his face. Note the response of Jesus when Peter tried to interfere with the unfolding of the Gospel. Peter was thinking for himself, as he determined to protect Jesus from harm.
But Peter was not thinking like Jesus. Nor did he know what to think about the Gospel, even though he thought he had it all figured out.
Matt. 16:22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.”
Matt. 16:23 But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
Peter would continue to think incorrectly, as the book of Galatians proves.
Bob Shields said: How can one say that they think for themselves and hold to the belief that Mrs. White's council was from God and must be followed or at least some semblance of following?
Tom said: First off, the historical facts do not support what you assume. Ellen White's contemporaries did not embrace this view that she "must be followed." Not only was this not the case, but Andrews underscored the opposite point by proving her wrong in the 1850's. He DID NOT follow her, and he stood up and let everyone know it.
At the end of the day, he prevailed. The fact that the White Estate suppressed this history, is beside the point. We are discussing the real Ellen White, not defending the fraudulent version from the White Estate. You need to understand the difference.
Moreover, Ellen White was not responsible for any doctrine. The Sabbath, as well as all the other Pillars, came from others. She discovered no doctrine.
Don’t confuse what all 20th century SDA's were taught by the White Estate with the 19th century facts. They are very different. You need to ask the White Estate why they forgot to inform you about J.N. Andrews and Ellen White. See what they say?
Bob said: She was famous for whipping the brethren into compliance with her wishes. How could/can anyone grow by making their own mistakes when they were/are under her control?
Tom said: The fact of the matter is this: It was James White who did most of the screaming at people. He was far stronger than was his wife, and he is the one that ruled and controlled the young church by fear and intimidation. And guess what? The White Estate has known this forever. It was hardly a secret that James White was a tough and no-nonsense leader that yelled and screamed often. Ellen White represents the softer side of that couple.
So you need to remove the myths of Arthur White from your mind so you can understand the historic Ellen White. I know it is difficult, but it must be done. And at some point, the White Estate will correct the record, by force or otherwise. This would help many.
Bob said: "Good" Adventists are nothing but robots to the system. They are judged by how well they comply with the council of Ellen.
Tom said: You are describing the 20th century TSDA's. This is what they were taught. This is how the modern TSDA's acted. But it is not how the Battle Creek TSDA's viewed Ellen White. They did not have a White Estate, and they did not view things the way Arthur White would later. In fact, after James White died, Uriah Smith was far more powerful and influential then Ellen White. And he never thought of Ellen White in the same manner, as did Arthur White.
This is why the 19th century leaders could so easily dismiss and exile her. She was not viewed as a super prophet at all. They did not think she had any authority like the Bible writers, because she never did. So they pushed her out of Battle Creek, and she had no power to resist.
Bob said: For the 44 years that Mrs. White taught the falsehood of legalism, how many went to their graves not ever knowing the real joy of living a vibrant Christian life? What a pity and yet she is revered by some.
Tom said: This is not fair. You could say that about the apostolic church too. How many years did it take for them to let the Gentiles have access to the Gospel? How many people went to their graves thinking there was no salvation for them?
Falsehood is present at every phase of church development, and thus there is nothing unique taking place in the Adventist Community. So you need to have some historical perspective.
Besides, the SDA's were Protestant. And they did not teach legalism right away. It was a gradual result of promoting the Sabbath.
By the 1870's, they were indeed teaching legalism. And it got worse in the 1880's, which is why someone stood up in 1886 and protested. This is what made E. J. Waggoner famous. Then Ellen White embraced Gospel Reform. It is a great story that mirrors the past development of the church.
The fact that all this was covered up and not explained honestly or correctly is beside the point. It is the facts we want to deal with, not myth and historical fraud.
Bob said: Those Adventists who deny her council, but still support the church are doing a real disfavor to those new souls who blindly buy into the system and are taught that she is God's special messenger.
Tom said: Today, no one should support SDA doctrine or the corrupt hierarchy. Tithe is an outrageously false doctrine, and thus no one should ever practice this scam, which supports a corrupt religious hierarchy. The SDA church is full of error and historical fraud. This is why the record must be corrected and leaders must repent.
Bob said: When I realized she was not all the church taught she was, I stopped proselytizing and withdrew my support.
Tom said: Many people have done this. This is why Walter Rea also left the church. Millions have left because they realize that the church was not being honest about Ellen White or the Gospel. Who can blame them? Not me! The SDA church is going to collapse if they refuse to repent and correct the record. It is just this simple.
Sirje Walkowiak said: When I first started to study on my own, trying to "nail down" SDA teachings, only to find that they could not be found in the Bible, I asked a pastor/friend what one should do if they have earnestly prayed for guidance but found that the Bible disagrees with EGW. His response was to pray again. In other words, pray until the Bible agrees with EGW.
Tom said: Listen very carefully; this would not have happened in Battle Creek. In fact, had this been the case, the church today would have still thought that the Sabbath started and ended at 6 pm.
J. N. Andrews proved that Ellen White did not have any doctrinal authority. Thus if you had a doctrinal issue in Battle Creek, no one would have told you to "pray, until you agreed with Ellen White's view." Not one of them! Rather, they would have studied the problem and reached a conclusion based on the Bible. Which is exactly what happened, on the record, for all to see.
And Guess what? During this process of BIBLE STUDY they discovered that Ellen White's views, as well as her own interpretation of her visions, were WRONG. So they all made the necessary corrections. She was proven wrong in public, and thus she also switched her views in front of all.
This historic account represents the opposite of what all 20th century SDA's were taught. Once again proving that the White Estate is the cause of great trouble and deceit. They are great deceivers.
Elaine Nelson said: I don't recall her coming right out and saying, "I was wrong."
Tom said: No doubt that is because the White Estate would never highlight such history. The story about JN Andrews was well known to the White Estate, but who has ever heard of it? Not many. Why? Because it disproves what they were trying to promote about Ellen White.
Who knows what else is in the vault about this? There is much more research that needs to be done about Ellen White. I was only in there for a few months, and I was only focused on the 1888 period. There is much work yet to be done in the White Estate.
Elaine said: Nor should it be expected of a prophet. Her status would go down the tubes had she ever admitted to a mistake or being wrong. (Even I was wrong once---I think).
Tom said: You have missed the point. The Andrews situation forced Ellen White to admit she was wrong about the Sabbath. Did her status "go down the tubes" as a result? Not at all. So you, like many others, are ignoring the facts and embracing White Estates propaganda. Can you admit that you are wrong about this?
Don Sands said: Now, I don't view Ellen White's counsels as "marching us around a desert of legalism".
Tom said: The Ellen White of the White Estate is very guilty of leading the Advent people in dishonest circles. But not the real EW of history. It was really Arthur White, pretending to be Ellen White.
Thus the SDA's today are going to have to look at the evidence to determine the truth of the charges that are being leveled against the White Estate. They would be foolish to let this church institution refuse to answer the questions or get away with this monstrous fraud. Thinking people want the real answers. While the guilty want no investigation.
Every thinking SDA should want to see an open and honest investigation of the White Estate. Why is this topic never discussed? Why is this possibility never pushed forward?
There has been a private investigation by Tom Norris, and there will also be a public one by the civil authorities if they do not repent. The White Estate has been caught and their only option is to confess and correct the record. If they need to be forced. So be it.
Don said: As a Christian, I think for myself in the presence of Jesus who is in the presence of Almighty God. But, even in their presence, I think for myself. Part of thinking for myself is having a teachable spirit.
Tom said: Forget this idea about thinking for oneself. When it comes to Gospel doctrine, we are totally dependent on the Apostles. Thus their Word is what we must think about, not our own ideas.
A true Christian will think the thoughts of Christ and have his mind. Those that "think for themselves" about doctrine, rarely think like God.
This recent idea that SDA's should now view church history by thinking for ourselves is nonsense. This is really code for giving the White Estate a pass, and winking at the myths we were all taught. That is not right. These myths must be identified and removed, and the record corrected.
The church should not have to try and "think" about what Ellen White believed and what she did not. We can know for certain what she said and what she did not say. We can know for certain what she would think of TA, and it is very different from what we have all been taught.
History is what it is. Not what we think it should be. The SDA Community is owed the facts. They deserve to know the truth about Ellen White, even if it means that the church has been perpetrating a massive and wicked fraud on everyone. While this is immensely embarrassing, and full of legal implications and damages that are staggering, that is the price of sin. There are consequences for wrongdoing, and the White Estate has yet to understand this fact.
Sirje Walkowiak said: No, think for yourself, Don Sands. As did I and so, here I am. This happened when I was totally immersed in Adventism and found what I was discovering very upsetting; but I couldn't deny what was right in front of my face as I studied on my own.
Tom said: While none of us are authorized to think up doctrine, we must use our minds to understand truth versus error. So here is where "thinking for oneself" is proper and necessary. Not to invent doctrine, but to honestly tell the difference between solid evidence and nonsense. We must think for ourselves to make the right choices when it comes to the evidence of our faith, as well as judge the credibility of those who teach us.
Those that work for the church are blind to the evidence that others see. Those paid by the church are not thinking for themselves, but allowing their employers to pass judgment on both evidence and doctrine. Their minds are directed away from the facts, even as fear and coercion is applied. This is also why a hierarchy is so wrong. Those at the top live to control those below, and thus all are forced to think a certain, false way.
Sirje said: It's not that easy to "follow the lamb wherever he goes". Sometimes he goes right out the door, and you wish he didn't.
Tom said: Don't cry just for the SDA's. Every church and denomination in the world has been judged wrong, blind, and worthless at the end of time. This is what the LM is saying. Jesus wants to lead people out of every one of them.
But where is the true Gospel church in the last days? Where is the final Gospel church that fully represents Jesus?
It does not exist as yet.
The true church will be the one that responds to the words of Jesus and repents, and reforms. So far, they are all going their own way, including and especially the SDA's.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris, who knows the real Ellen White
Offline
The only issue here is that EGW should be declared devotional, not infallible or used in anyway to finalize what is true doctrine.
Offline
bob-2 wrote:
The only issue here is that EGW should be declared devotional, not infallible or used in anyway to finalize what is true doctrine.
Bob, why would anyone knowingly want to use a book for devotion that is full of error and plagiarism? All her writings should be ditched. There are plenty of authentic devotional books that pass the test of scripture out there.
Offline
Tom said: Many people have done this. This is why Walter Rea also left the church. Millions have left because they realize that the church was not being honest about Ellen White or the Gospel. Who can blame them? Not me! The SDA church is going to collapse if they refuse to repent and correct the record. It is just this simple.
I thought Walter Rea is still a member. You have more info than I do, so thanks for the update.
Offline
Desire of Ages is a beautifully written book and can certainly give a blessing in a devotional setting. However, when you get into Great Controversey and speculation not grounded in SoloScriptura, problems arise. This is my point.
Offline
If ATomorrow does not tone down its rhetoric about the church about to "implode" or "collapse" if does not "repent" , it probably won't gain many main stream SDAs to study the issues. We need to reduce the extreme rhetoric and discuss the issues with simple "SoloScriptura" and leave it at that. That their Scriptural position and state ours and let the Spirit move, not Norris or Shields or Sands or.....
Offline
Bob 2 said: If ATomorrow does not tone down its rhetoric about the church about to "implode" or "collapse" if does not "repent”, it probably won't gain many main stream SDAs to study the issues.
Tom said: The correct preaching of the Gospel is ALWAYS accompanied by warnings of judgment and doom. The Bible is full of such examples, including the Laodicean Message, which is the Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church.
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; bI wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Those that refuse to understand this point are only showing their ignorance of the scriptures.
Moreover, the Gospel is not a popularity contest, nor is it entertainment. So it cannot be marketed as if it were. It is full of blood, debate, and talk of sin, Judgment and doom. It is a life and death matter.
Many are called to face up to their sinful mortality and prepare for the coming Judgment Day. Many are asked to understand the serious nature of their fatal predicament and find salvation. But only a few will understand and embrace the Gospel.
Luke 13:23 And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them,
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Furthermore, the point of the Adventist movement was to warn the church that the world was about to “collapse” and explode into fire. It was no tame message, which is why it caused controversy and schism wherever it was preached.
Rev. 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
Then the SDA’s came along and added to this Millerite eschatology. They introduced the controversial doctrine of the Sabbath as well as the collapse of democracy and a more articulated view of the Tribulation. They warned that the America would soon act like ancient Rome and persecute Christians.
Rev. 14:8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”
Rev. 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev. 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev. 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Rev. 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
The final Gospel call to mankind, which the SDA’s called the 4th Angels Message, also contains a warning about the Judgment and the end of the world. It is a message that contains doom and hope.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev. 18:3 “For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”
Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;
Bob 2 said: We need to reduce the extreme rhetoric and discuss the issues with simple "SoloScriptura" and leave it at that.
Tom said: The Gospel is an extreme doctrine that requires extreme rhetoric, as well as a very different and surprising Sabbath. This is what the scriptures clearly teach and so too the Holy Spirit.
The Gospel is about Judgment, even as it is about the end of the world. So what you call extreme is normative for those familiar with the Word.
While the Gospel contains some elements of peace, it is not primarily a message of peace, but one of division and judgment.
Matt. 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt. 10:35 “For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Matt. 10:36 and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
No one should ever “tone down” or misrepresent the Gospel in any way. This is the great sin of Laodicea, including the SDA’s.
Tom Norris for the genuine Gospel
Offline
Adventist Online is currently discussing Ellen White, as understood by Adventist Reform.
Someone found an All Experts post about Ellen White and has used it for discussion. It is always interesting to see the various reactions, which are very predictable.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-true.htm
Was Ellen White Elevated Too Much?
“This is an essay by Tom Norris regarding Ellen White. I have been debating on how she should be regarded. I have been thinking that she has been elevated too much. I have also wondered about certain things she said, if they carry truth or not. Well, Tom Norris claims that the church has been taught wrong things about her.
Here is the essay:
http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/to … d-too-much
Apparently this group has no idea that we have been online, having a long, detailed, and documented discussion about Ellen White for years?
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1237985658
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/6198/7881.html
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/1010.html
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/958.html
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1021986869
We wish them well as they study and seek answers.
Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
Offline
Edgar said: I dont get it. I read your answer to SDA's "Under Law or Faith" and completely agreed with your answer but then I read on your expertise column the following: "the role and authority of Ellen White, a unique and accomplished religious writer that had remarkable spiritual gifts"
Do you truly believe this? Her being the one who poisoned the whole SDA with her false teachings/visions even plagiarism. Jer 23:30 What is your position on EGW?
Edgar
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Norris replied:
The SDA’s have confused everyone about Ellen White, including themselves. There is probably no Adventist topic more misunderstood and full of myth, legend, and fiction than the life story of Ellen White. It is the root cause why the SDA’s are so confused, divided, and self-destructing.
The White Estate has never been an honest broker for Ellen White as their charter demands. Rather, they have dishonestly suppressed and manipulated her writings, promoting doctrines in her name that she never advocated and covering up areas where she changed her mind, like on the law and the Gospel, as well as tithe.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm
The Denomination has created a fraudulent version of Ellen White, and it is this dishonest farce that stands in the Public Domain to be relentlessly attacked by the critics as a legalist, plagiarist, and fraud. So round and round the Ellen White debate has gone over the years. But in hindsight, it was all a useless diversion from the real person of history. The real Ellen White has never been honestly or correctly presented to the modern Adventist Community, and until this happens, the SDA’s will continue to be disoriented, useless, and irrelevant.
While you read my answer about Law and Faith, (which you approved), you must have overlooked my many posts about Ellen White. I suggest that you look up and read this material, including an ongoing Forum Discussion about Ellen White at the Adventist of Today website.
See: Under Law or Faith?
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -Faith.htm
See: Ellen White Forum Discussion:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
See: Ellen White links:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-true.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-3.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ite-13.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rs-E-G.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -white.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rophet.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-10.ht...
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ipture.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … rophet.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-5.htm
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/1780/1010.html
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/messages/6198/7881.html
After reading all this material about Ellen White, a different perspective should emerge. One that is more honest and historical, grounded on the facts.
I trust this helps.
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform
Offline
I learnt last autumn from an SDA Division official in his sermon that Loma Linda Univ. has published the long awaited list of all the books in Ellen G. White's libraries at her death. This list can be obtained / downloaded from LLU at http://lluweb2.llu.edu/heritage/EGWPriv … Search.asp. It turns out that this list was published quietly in 1993 by the E.G. White Estate.
EGW had 3 libraries: 1. Her private sitting room library (395 books); 2. Her office library, where her literary assistants worked (1047 books - 41 of her own); 3. She bought C.C. Crisler's library (517 books) and she also bought some of A.W. Spaldings books (33). Even this published list is not complete: bizarrely, 70 books have not been listed, these were not on the list that was made at her death, but later found in the EGW Estate Library; only those published before 1916 are on the list. There are bookplates from 1916-30 which were in the EGW Estate - it seems as though the EGW Estate (son Willie and others) may have been using other books for their compilations after EGW died. It is clear to me that her "inspiration" and information came from the Bible and perhaps some of these other writers.
Most of the books in her library (89%) were by non SDA writers. Almost all of the books in her own library were also in her office-assistants' library. All of Crisler's books and all but one of Spalding's books were in her assistants' library. This suggests that there was a lot of reading, compiling and editing going on with the publications of her books. It is claimed that Ellen White herself called Marian Davies who worked for her from 1879 - 1903, her "bookmaker" (Letter to George Irwin, 23 April 1900 / Letter 61a - Manuscript Release). I think Marian Davies and others should now be formally credited in all the books (29-31?) that she helped to compile or make. I also think a lot more research by a team of qualified researchers need to be done to discover just how much or little she borrowed or copied from those hundreds of authors.
We know that R. Numbers, W. Rea and F. Veltman have already done research into this area. Veltman researched the first 15 chapters of the Desire of Ages and found that approximately 31% of it had been copied or borrowed (Ministry Oct. 1990, pp 4-7 & Dec. 1990, pp 11-15). Veltman's full 958 page research document is locked away at the GC but it was also sent to some SDA universities & colleges, like PUC. Research now needs to be extended to all of the books attributed to Ellen G. White. I think she was a good woman, but lacked formal education after she was 12 because of being hit in the face by a stone. She obviously read very widely and largely taught herself. She did very well but was apparently poor at grammar and punctuation as some of her hand written letters show, therefore, she needed editorial and literary help (Frances Bolton, another employee's testimony, see Ronald Numbers, Prophetess of Health: A Study of Ellen G. White (1976), pp.195-96, note 36 on p. 256). Remember she was human, a sinner with faults and failures, in need of salvation like the rest of us!
I think Ellen White also had to project an image of a credible, educated religious leader, hence the borrowing, copying or what some may call plaigarising. It is known among SDA historians that her Sketches from the Life of Paul (1883) was largely plaigarised from Conybeare and Howson's Life and Epistles of the Apostle Paul (3rd ed., 1855)[Numbers, p. 194] - she also had this book in her library. Her book was withdrawn apparently after a complaint was made - some believe a lawsuit threat? Copyright laws did exist in the 19th century. She was not the only one plaigarising in the 19th century; apparently, many non scholarly, religious writers of that era plaigarised without citing their sources. It is also time that the church fully set the record straight on this matter. If we read Ellen G. White it should be for research or personal devotional purposes only: she leads people to Christ as I can personally testify while reading the Desire of Ages as a teenager. But she is not a prophetess, nor Rev. 19:10's spirit of prophecy; and she is not an authority on doctrine.
Every time I read an Ellen White book or quote e.g.: in every Friday's lesson of the Quarterly, I think to myself, good, but was this original or copied? We all need clarity in this matter.
Last edited by J. Knight (05-16-11 4:48 am)
Offline
Where did the myth of Ellen White having 2000 visions come from? Apparently this was written upon her gravestone! This is just not true, even when compared with the list of her visions in the Comprehensive Index to the writings of Ellen G. White (1962) 3:2978-84; there, I've only counted 346 visions. This is nearly twice the amount of Divine revelations Moses had, face to face with God’s Son (Exodus 33:11, 20; John 1:18).
Ellen White’s claimed visions are more than any single Bible prophet or character ever had! This is also more than most of the Bible prophets over thousands of years added together! Is the SDA church claiming that Ellen White was somehow more privileged than any Bible prophet or number of them added together? Remember that Jesus himself said that John the Baptist was the greatest prophet (Matt. 11:11). John the Baptist seems only to have had one vision recorded in the Bible, that of heavens opening and God calling Jesus his beloved Son, at his baptism (John 1:32; Mark 1:9-11).
Do all of Ellen White's "I saw" statements (4786); "I was shown" (2276) "my accompanying angel [said]" statements (58); refer to visionary experiences? When you check these out on the Ellen G. White Writings: Comprehensive Research Edition [DVD, 2008] - they come to a combined total of 7120! But these still do not explain where the myth of the 2000 visions came from? Maybe it just does not have any basis in fact.
What about the failed visionary predictions?
The Shut Door vision of 1849
The belief that the door of mercy and salvation was closed to the unbelieving world shortly after the Great Disappointment (1844); then applied to disappointed Adventists who stopped believing in the second advent and rejected the present truth about the 7th day Sabbath.
The Food for Worms vision of 1856
Some of those alive would be translated, Testimony, vol. 1:131-32, - failed (all have long died, last one was a baby at the time, her son Willie White died in 1937);
The prediction that England would declare war on America during its Civil War (1862), Testimony, vol. 1:259 - failed;
The prediction that a divided America in the Civil War would fall (1862), Testimony, vol. 1:260 - failed;
The Health vision of June 1863
For vegetarianism, as good and as healthy as this is, apart from Eden and the New Earth, vegetarianism is not Biblical, the resurrected Jesus ate fish and still went back to Heaven (Luke 24:36-43); God’s Kingdom does not depend upon food or drink (Romans 14:1-3, 17); according to Paul, abstinence from foods which the Lord made to be eaten is called a doctrine of demons in 1 Tim. 4:1-5; referring back to Gen. 1:16; 9:3-4 and Lev. 11. Ellen White herself struggled unnecessarily for 31 years before she stopped eating meat! According to the Bull and Lockhart’s book, Seeking a Sanctuary (2007) only about 28% of SDAs surveyed were vegetarians! This has never been a test of faith and SDA people are voting by the majority with their bellies. It is a personal matter and option if anyone wants to be a vegetarian or even a vegan, they may do so for health reasons, and perhaps for the logical reason, that no animals will be killed for food in God’s new creation (Isaiah 11:6-9; 65:25; Rev. 21:1; 22:1-2; Counsels on Diet, p. 380-81).
Deuteronomy 18:22 - if a prophet speaks and the thing does not come true, do not revere that prophet!
But Ellen White also predicted some things which are or came true, such as:
Her first view (Dec. 1844), Early Writings, pp. 13-17, that Jesus will return again and that the Second Advent Movement is right about this (John 14:1-3);
The Adventist message going like steams of light around the world (1848), Life Sketches, pp. 125-27; technology is making this happen.
The wide-spread of spiritualism (1849), Early Writings, pp. 43-45, 86 - has happened;
The increasing wickedness of humans would lead to increased disease in animals, their food products and in human beings, Counsels on Diet, pp. 366, 383-4, 412 - is happening.
Each claim must be carefully examined and weighed for the evidence. The things which are true we say amen to. But those things which are unbiblical or wrong, we say reform.
Ellen G. White was a good Christian woman in her era. She functioned as a non-ordained pastoress in the young SDA church and we should respect her for the great work she did in helping to build up the early SDA church, but even she held some un-Biblical ideas.
The Bible and the Bible only is our rule of faith.
Offline
The writings of Ellen White are full of contradictions. Ellen must not have remembered what she wrote previous when writing about the same subject. SDAs excuse her wrong thoughts saying that in other writings she taught the Biblical account. An example is her account of Jesus, The Father and the angels after the fall of man. She wrote that Jesus had to go into the Father 3 times before the Father would relinquish and allow Jesus to come to Earth and pay the ransom for mankind. In other writings she was clear with scripture on the subject.
"Sorrow filled heaven, as it was realized that man was lost and that world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with His Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came out from the Father, His person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and doubt, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. {SR 42.1}
He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that He had been pleading with His Father, and had offered to give His life a ransom, to take the sentence of death upon Himself, that through Him man might find pardon; that through the merits of His blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God and be brought into the beautiful garden and eat of the fruit of the tree of life. {SR 42.2}
At first the angels could not rejoice, for their Commander concealed nothing from them, but opened before them the plan of salvation. Jesus told them that He would stand between the wrath of His Father and guilty man, that He would bear iniquity and scorn, and but few would receive Him as the Son of God. Nearly all would hate and reject Him. He would leave all His glory in heaven, appear upon earth as a man, humble himself as a man, become acquainted by His own experience with the various temptations with which man would be beset, that He might know how to succor those who should be tempted; and that finally, after His mission as a teacher would be accomplished, He would be delivered into the hands of men and endure almost every cruelty and suffering that Satan and his angels could inspire wicked men to inflict; that He would die the cruelest of deaths, hung up between the heavens and the earth as a guilty sinner; that He would suffer dreadful hours of agony, which even angels could not look upon, but would veil their faces from the sight. Not merely agony of body would He suffer, but mental agony, that with which bodily suffering could in no wise be compared. The weight of the sins of the whole world would be upon Him. He told them He would die and rise again the third day, and would ascend to His Father to intercede for wayward, guilty man." {SR 43.1}
This was horrible false claims that people are still reading today. The church has done nothing to take these false writings off the market. Instead they tell us she corrected those thoughts in some other publication. What if the reader never reads the other publications and never reads in scripture that the plan of salvation was before the foundation of the Earth.
Then in "Great Controversy" she writes:
"Christ. Even after entering upon His earthly mission, the Saviour, wearied with the stubbornness and ingratitude of men, might have drawn back from the sacrifice of Calvary. In Gethsemane the cup of woe trembled in His hand. He might even then have wiped the blood-sweat from His brow and have left the guilty race to perish in their iniquity. Had He done this, there could have been no redemption for fallen men. But when the Saviour yielded up His life, and with His expiring breath cried out, "It is finished," then the fulfillment of the plan of redemption was assured. The promise of salvation made to the sinful pair in Eden was ratified. The kingdom of grace, which had before existed by the promise of God, was then established." {GC 347.2}
That is pure heresy. Ellen was in the business of selling books. This is how she made her generous living. She was not very savvy in making sure there were no mistakes. Bob
Offline
Ron asked:
I opened this file once but it won't open any more;
http://www.rhpa.org/newproducts/product … 0000533000
Where they able to take it down?
Ronald Robert Parmele
http://questions4adventist.blogspot.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Norris answered:
Ron,
The Hidden 1888 Documents, which were discovered by Tom Norris in the White Estate, in 1979, and published by the Review in 1987, are out of print. At least in book form. However, they are online.
Here are some links about the suppressed 1888 documents:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … nference.h
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … EAD-PLEASE
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … 8-Jones-Wa
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … s-1888.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -Smith.htm
The 1888 materials are online at the White Estate web site. Here is what the White Estate says about these materials online:
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials: About This Collection of Ellen G. White Documents
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials consists exclusively of Ellen G. White letters, manuscripts, articles, and sermons that relate directly or indirectly to the Ministerial Institute and General Conference session held by Seventh-day Adventists in Minneapolis, Minnesota, from October 10 to November 4, 1888.
No General Conference session in the history of the Seventh-day Adventist church has undergone such analysis and scrutiny, or has elicited as much comment as the 1888 meeting.
The White Estate Trustees believe that the key to understanding the 1888 General Conference session, as well as the history of subsequent years, is to be found in the writings of Ellen G. White. Mrs. White had much to say at the time, and in later years as well, about her experience in Minneapolis. In the decade following 1888, she frequently referred to Minneapolis and the spirit that was manifested there.
Since 1988 marks the centenary of the 1888 meeting, and since the attention of Seventh-day Adventists everywhere will be focused on 1888 throughout the year, the White Estate Trustees feel that there will be a keen interest in knowing what Ellen White had to say about the Minneapolis meeting.
Thus the Trustees are making available to our church members this comprehensive collection of all the E. G. White manuscripts and letters that in any way refer to Minneapolis.
In most cases the entire manuscript or letter has been included even though only a portion may be germane to this subject. Names have been left in just as Ellen White used them, except in one or two instances where the file copy has a blank instead of a name.
Nearly all the manuscripts and letters have been copied directly from the file drawers where they are housed, hence misspellings have not been corrected, nor have the documents been improved in any other way for publication.
Where complete letters or manuscripts have already been released, these are reproduced in their grammatically edited, more legible, “Manuscript Release” form. Otherwise, previously released materials are noted only on the margin of each page. Most of the materials in this collection have never been released or published before in any form.
Although the sermons given by Ellen White at Minneapolis have been published for many years in Thirteen Crisis Years (formerly Through Crisis to Victory) by A. V. Olson, they are repeated here. One sermon and portions of another not found in Thirteen Crisis Years have been added as well. We have made every endeavor to make this collection as complete as possible; however, if a pertinent sermon, letter, or manuscript has been inadvertently overlooked and comes to our attention later, it will be added to any subsequent printings of these materials.
This collection is not a compendium on the subject of righteousness by faith. Ellen White preached often on justification and sanctification by faith in the years following 1888, but only those sermons in which reference was made to the Minneapolis conference are included here. The reader is referred to the Ellen G. White book Faith and Works and the E. G. White Review and Herald Articles for additional presentations on the subject of Christ and His righteousness.
We regret that a number of pages are barely legible, but these are the best copies that could be made from the documents as they exist in our files. We feel it is better to make these materials available now, in their present condition, than to wait till some future date when grammatical editing and retyping can be done. All manuscripts and letters have their own pagination, though this has not always been reflected by the copy machine.
To all who seek to understand the 1888 event from God’s perspective, we recommend the study of these letters, manuscripts, articles, and sermons. We believe they will serve as a helpful guide to every Seventh-day Adventist who desires to benefit from lessons our spiritual ancestors learned or failed to learn one hundred years ago.
The Trustees of the
Ellen G. White Estate,
October, 1987.
http://egwtext.whiteestate.org/publicat … 888&lang=e
This set is also listed on the White Estate web site as being in circulation:
Ellen G. White® Books and Pamphlets In Current Circulation:
Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (4 vols.), 1988. 1,821 pp. Contains all of Ellen White's references to the 1888 Minneapolis Conference.
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/booklist.asp
See also:
1988 Ministry Book Review of the Ellen G White 1888 Materials;
http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive … -materials
1888 Materials Online
http://www.reocities.com/xbenson1888/EG … tents.html
I trust this information will be of assistance in your studies.
Tom Norris, for All Experts.Com and Adventist Reform
Offline
Tom Norris,
We just wanted to inform you of our recently launched ministry. Have you been made aware of this yet?
http://unpublishedellenwhite.com
Blessings
SDAnonymous
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear SDA Anonymous,
I visited your web site. Very nice.
http://unpublishedellenwhite.com
Good for your group to try and help the SDA’s tell the truth about Ellen White and church history! This is a worthy and necessary endeavor because the official story about Ellen White is very manipulated and false. Thus the record must be corrected, and it is only a matter of time before this takes place. You are part of this ongoing process to find truth.
Today, it has become clear to most everyone that the White Estate has not been honest about Ellen White’s writings or teaching, much less about church history or doctrine. This is the major reason for all the confusion and schism that has overwhelmed modern Adventism.
Once Ellen White's role in 1888 period is better understood, and the many myths in the White Estate uncovered and removed, a new view of Ellen White and Adventism will emerge; one that is very different from what the Takoma Park apologists promoted and the critics attacked.
I have been in the White Estate and the Archives and I know what Arthur White was hiding, and why. Once I understood that the leaders had no plans to tell the truth or correct the record, I went public, refusing to be anonymous.
Hidden Documents
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm
From the very beginning of the Takoma Park White Estate, the Denomination embraced a dishonest policy of suppression and cover-up, choosing to carefully suppress and manipulate Ellen White’s writings, especially those associated with the history of 1888. Thus the White Estate was, and still is, a criminal enterprise, specializing in publishing fraud and the manipulation of the facts.
While it is true that the leaders intended to tell the truth at some point, that time never came, and to this very day, the White Estate has not confessed or repented for their great sin of manipulating and suppressing Ellen White’s writings. Not only that, when the hidden 1888 documents were found in 1979, the leaders just covered up this discovery, pretending they were innocent, even as they failed to inform the church membership of this surprising historical discovery in the basement of the Takoma Park, General Conference building.
Let’s be clear; the SDA leaders are guilty of committing a long running and ongoing publishing fraud, which is a crime. They are guilty of misrepresenting Ellen White, even teaching false doctrines in her name that she does not support.
White Estate/ Hidden Documents
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm
The fact of the matter is this; The White Estate has been caught "red handed," hiding thousands of important documents from the 1888 period, - in the White Estate. These documents told a very different story from what the church had been publishing and teaching. Which explains why Arthur White was hiding them. But yet, the church leaders still refuse to confess and correct the record, pretending that they have done nothing wrong.
No wonder so many are angry with the SDA’s for their gross dishonesty, corruption, and desire to control and deceive. Which explains why those who work for the church, have to search for truth anonymously, fearing termination for promoting much needed reforms. Does anyone think the Teachings of Christ would support such a situation in the church? Hardly.
The White Estate is owned, controlled, and managed by the General Conference. It is not a separate or autonomous institution. From the beginning, it was directed by President Daniels to play the major role in this outrageous cover-up because Ellen White had written so much about the 1888 debates, and this tradition of deception was handed down even to the present day administrators. Although Neal Wilson, (and others before him), had an opportunity to do the right thing, he too refused to correct the record when informed of the fraud in the White Estate.
And so on and on it goes, the SDA’s are not able to be honest or repent. By keeping Ellen White’s writings of this 1888 period hidden, the apologists were able to revise and fabricate church history, even as they published one false book after another, like Crisis to Victory and Movement of Destiny, that claimed to honestly explain 1888 and silence the critics. But these books were fiction, which only made matters worse. But some church leaders, including Arthur White and Froom, knew all along they were false. Thus the top leaders have been purposefully misleading everyone about Ellen White’s true views, and they are still doing it today. This is very wrong, and it is going to take more then faceless protests to correct this criminal situation, which goes to the core of the problems that are destroying the Advent Movement.
Col. 3:9 Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
The church leaders have always known that they were not telling the truth about Ellen White or what happened in Battle Creek. They were hiding real story all along! This is why they suppressed and hid so many of her writings, and why after so many years, SDA’s are still struggling to make sense of Ellen White.
John 3:21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
Today, the SDA’s are reaping what they sowed and paying for their sins. Their steady descent into confusion, irrelevance, and schism, - after Glacier View, is a direct result of the fraud in the White Estate and the suppression of Ellen White’s writings. And little has changed today.
Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
Ellen White would not approve of such an evil plan to suppress, manipulate, and hide her writings, nor would she have approved of Traditional Adventism or what happened to Dr. Ford at Glacier View.
Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
It is time for the truth about Ellen White to become fully known and the record corrected. This is what everyone should be demanding, the truth about Ellen White and church history. This is what Ellen White would want, and so too should all those that are honest and true.
Is this too much to ask? Apparently it is for the SDA’s. Which is why they no longer use the term “truth” anymore. They can’t speak such a word with a straight face, nor do they want to. Truth has not mattered to the SDA’s for some time, even as many are fearful of looking for it.
Today, the Advent Movement is angry, confused, and divided about Ellen White. She is the number one reason why people leave the church. But guess what? The Ellen White of the White Estate, - the one that is in the public domain, - is fictitious. She is the creation of Arthur White, the most dishonest man in modern SDA history. Until this great fraud in the White Estate is explained and repudiated, the SDA church, and all those that support this corrupt enterprise, are doomed.
Let me be clear: Much of what all modern SDA’s have been taught about Ellen White is false, including her views about the law and the Gospel, hermeneutics, and eschatology. Even her views about the IJ and the Three Angels Messages, as promoted by the White Estate, do not reflect what she really believed and taught, nor is her view of tithe being properly communicated to the church.
All SDA’s must come to grips with this massive fraud that has taken place in the White Estate about Ellen White. The days of double-talk and cover-up are past. The truth about Ellen White and 1888 is now in the public domain for all to see.
Consequently, all should ask the White Estate WHY they were hiding so many Ellen White documents all these years? And when these documents were released in 1987, - 7 years AFTER Glacier View, why were they almost impossible to read and understand? And why was there no explanation about who found them or what they contained? Why was this “discovery” never explained to the church so that everyone could understand what had been found?
Think about it: How could a fair trial of Dr. Ford take place at Glacier View, when there were thousands of hidden documents that spoke to the issues under debate, - being hidden by the church? Documents that supported Dr. Ford. Such manipulation of the evidence overturns the pretense of a fair trial and condemns the General Conference leaders as very dishonest.
Matt. 19:18 Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
Here is all the evidence that anyone needs to understand that the SDA denomination has long ago gone corrupt. The White Estate has NEVER told the truth about Ellen White or church history and the leaders know this. But yet, they refuse to confess, repent, and correct the record. Pitiful.
Hidden 1888 Documents Online at White Estate Web Site
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-1888.htm
The Adventist Community, both those that have left, and the few that remain, should demand that the White Estate confess what they have done and CORRECT THE RECORD. Then the world will see a very different Ellen White, one that does not support Traditional Adventism as the church has incorrectly taught all these years. More than that, the church will understand that Dr. Ford was supporting the fundamental theology of Ellen White and the Three Angels Messages at Glacier View.
In conclusion, it is time for genuine and true Adventist Reform. It is time for those who want Gospel truth to find it. The Advent Movement does not need the SDA organization to move forward and find truth. They are the source of the problem, not Ellen White.
Adventist Reform- Tom Norris
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
It is time for the Adventist Community to move away from their dishonest, double-talking leaders and move forward to the final stage of Adventism, which the Pioneers termed the 4th Angels Message. It is time.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
There is more than ample ellen drivel out there consuming the time of the veiled SDA members. I, for one, am delighted that much of her writings have not been published and pray that SDAanonymous is not successful in distributing her unpublished drivel.
Because of ellen the membership cannot see the real truths proclaimed in scripture. She has clouded the minds of otherwise brilliant Christian people until the simple Gospel has become an unreachable cloud. They, because of her have become a bunch of legalistic law hucksters.
Last edited by bshields (04-06-12 9:36 am)
Offline
Bsheilds said: There is more than ample “ellen drivel” out there consuming the time of the veiled SDA members.
Tom said: I agree that there are legions of Ellen White materials in the public domain. And much of it is worthless, misunderstood, and even dangerous because it has been taken so badly out its historical context.
I also agree that the SDA’s are blind to the Gospel, unable to understand proper hermeneutics, church history, or the proper relationship between law and Gospel. This explains why they have embraced the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees instead of the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Bsheilds said: I, for one, am delighted that much of her writings have not been published and pray that SDAanonymous is not successful in distributing her unpublished drivel.
Tom said: It is apparent that you are one of those who have been traumatized by the misuse of Ellen White. I understand. But this is the fault of Arthur White, not Ellen.
However, the problems associated with Ellen White are not an excuse to run from the facts of history, much less whish that more materials were suppressed and hidden. Hiding documents and manipulating the writings of Ellen White is a recipe for disaster. So it is good to see a group trying to get the facts.
If on the other hand, SDAA is trying to support the many errors of Traditional Adventism, then they will not be successful. But I don’t think this is where they are coming from. But regardless, the more facts the better.
Bsheilds said: Because of ellen the membership cannot see the real truths proclaimed in scripture. She has clouded the minds of otherwise brilliant Christian people until the simple Gospel has become an unreachable cloud. They, because of her have become a bunch of legalistic law hucksters.
Tom said: I agree that Ellen White is the number 1 reason why people leave Adventism.
I also agree that she was a legalist for a large part of her life. But many people have fallen into this trap, including Peter and James, the leaders of the apostolic church.
So this error should not be how the critics define her, especially because she changed her views after 1888 and became a Gospel Reformer.
This is the part of Ellen White’s life story that was being suppressed and hidden in the White Estate. Why? Because the leaders liked the pre 1888 legalism of Ellen White and Uriah Smith, even as they hated the Gospel.
So the White Estate only published and promoted what they wanted the church to know, which was the legalistic version of Ellen White. Carefully hiding the Reformed Ellen White who went to war against Uriah Smith and Traditional Adventism after 1888.
THIS is what SDAA should be focused on. They should be focused on this massive fraud in the White Estate about Ellen White and 1888 that explains why the SDA’s are so confused and wrong.
Until this scandal in the White Estate is exposed and confessed, and the record corrected, the SDA’s are doomed. They will never be able to unite on the historic fundamentals of Adventism or the Gospel, because they know neither.
In conclusion, the Adventists are dying for lack of transparency and truthfulness. They are self-destructing because of the incompetence and dishonesty of the GC administrators, the White Estate, and the church historians, many of who have only made matters worse.
The Adventist Community should not tolerate such a dishonest and confusing situation. Let’s hope the SDAA will shine some much needed light on the misunderstood and suppressed history of Ellen White.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris, who has been in the White Estate and knows the facts
Offline
I've found it's not EGW why people leave but lack of Biblical reasoning for positions taken. When have you last heard a sermon on Hebrew 8:13, stating the Old Covenant is obsolete. Or one on Col 2:16,17, that shows that Jesus is the reality of the Sabbath shadow, our True Rest.
Notice the next time a sermon is preached in an SDA church, it uses OT scripture and more EGW than scripture. EGW claims that the greatest commandment is the 4th with a halo around it, Christ claims love God and one another as the greatest.
What would the SDA church look like with a little tweaking?
Offline
Bob said: I've found it's not EGW why people leave but lack of Biblical reasoning for positions taken.
Tom said: Today, it is clear that the many issues swirling around Ellen White, like her inspiration, legalism, plagiarism, and cultism, - is why the majority of SDA’s leave the church. This is not my opinion, but what people always say when they leave.
http://sabbatismos.com/our-testimonies/ … on-letter/
http://www.SeventhDayCult.com/
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/
I could post the testimony of one former SDA after another; all saying that Ellen White is the main reason why they left. Of course they also cite many other errors and reasons, but she is always at the top of the list. (Which is why the White Estate is so responsible for the modern meltdown of the SDA’s.)
David W. DePinho Leaves Because of Ellen White
…In the system of Adventist beliefs, EGW herself is a doctrine! While I know it is possible to support the doctrine of prophets living in the end of time by the Bible, it is not possible to test a person who claims to be a prophet (or a "messenger" which EGW said encompassed all the work of a prophet and more) without looking at the things they teach, wrote and said. Do not read further until you understand this paragraph.
For those Adventists who still believe that the Bible is the supreme authority and are willing to really test EGW against the Bible, consider this. If EGW is not "biblical" and contradicts the Bible when she says "I saw" or "I was shown" or relates the scenes of a vision, then Adventism is teaching false doctrine in supporting her role as a prophet in the church. That is clear, isn’t it?
Since Adventism is a system that is held to be truth, if acceptance of EGW as a prophet "falls" then all Adventist teachings must come under a fresh reevaluation, with the preface understanding that Adventism is wrong about EGW. This reevaluation, ultimately, was what led me to leave Adventism.
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/testimonydd.htm
Here is another typical testimony about why people leave the SDA church. Ellen White is at the top of a long list of issues:
Cherie Stark Leave Adventism BECAUSE OF ELLEN WHITE
It wasn't long before I realized that, like it or not, I had to test the prophet. I was seeing a lot of major contradictions between Mrs. White and the Bible.
Either I was majorly misunderstanding what the Bible was saying or she was not a prophet! I didn't want to be misled. It's a big issue to reject any true prophet of God. It's also a big issue to accept as a prophet someone who is not one - a false prophet. So I tested her carefully and prayerfully by the tests given in the Bible for true and false prophets. She failed every one.
The realization that so many things that I had been taught all my life were false made me sick. There were times when I felt so physically ill that if I had had food in my stomach I would have lost it. There were times I would have panic attacks and would feel as if I could hardly breathe. I couldn't get a full night's sleep for months because I would wake up in the wee hours of the morning crying out to God to hold me tight. There were days I could hardly eat anything at all. I cried almost every day. I became very depressed.
How could the very things I had been taught be wrong? How could the things I had spent so much time carefully teaching my son be wrong? How could the things that I had governed my life by be wrong? How could the church I loved so much be wrong?
I was terrified! I knew well what SDA doctrine taught. And it wasn’t what I was finding in the Bible.
I knew that what I was finding went against Mrs. White.
I knew that to be an SDA and not believe in Mrs. White was unacceptable.
I knew that what I was finding in the Bible hit at the base of many of our church doctrines - ie belief in Mrs. White as a prophet, Sabbath being the seal of God's end time people, Sabbath observance being a salvational requirement, clean and unclean foods being a salvational requirement, the investigative judgment, the sanctuary doctrine and 1844, the purpose of the law in our lives, the purpose of Christ's mission on earth and what He accomplished, and the basic gospel.
I knew that what I was finding went against almost everything that I had been spiritually taught. And I knew what it would cost me if I said anything. Everything. I knew I had two choices. Stand on Christ and the Bible alone, or stand on the teachings of Mrs. White and let her interpret the Bible for me. I couldn't do both.
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/testimonycs.htm
Like I keep saying; Unless the church corrects what they have been teaching about Ellen White, and repudiates what the White Estate has been teaching all these years, including this nonsense about Ellen White being a Prophet, the SDA’s will collapse.
This process is well underway, and it is only a matter of time before the inevitable takes place. Look around. That time is near.
However, the SDA’s are not the only ones that “lack Biblical reasoning.” All of Laodicea, meaning every church and denomination, is full of irrational myths and impossible positions, starting with the Sabbath doctrine, which none of them have correct.
This is why people like Bill Maher, Dawkins, Hitchens, etc. are so fed up with religion. They mock it so easily, because it is so wrong and stupid. Little do they know that this is also how heaven feels. Which is why Jesus condemns every church in Laodicea as being blind and naked, full of false doctrine and worthless works.
Consequently, when the SDA’s leave, they have nowhere to go. The rest of Laodicea is no more correct than the SDA’s. With their Secret Rapture, false Sabbath, and other mindless views, including this appalling idea that the Government should take away women’s reproductive choice and rights.
So there is a great crisis of faith in all churches today. None have the true Gospel or the correct doctrine of the Sabbath. And few care about such things. Religion today is not about truth, but about entertainment and money.
Bob said: When have you last heard a sermon on Hebrew 8:13, stating the Old Covenant is obsolete.
Tom said: The SDA’s have NEVER understood the Two Covenants correctly. In fact, this was what the failed 1888 debates were all about. Until they do, the Adventists are doomed.
But guess what? No one else teaches this point correctly. If they did, they would embrace the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Here is the correct NC Gospel for all to embrace. Here is a test doctrine to see if one understands the Two Covenants correctly.
Bob said: Or one on Col 2:16,17, that shows that Jesus is the reality of the Sabbath shadow, our True Rest.
Tom replied: It is a great error to think that Paul is repudiating the Sabbath of Christ. This is not what this text teaches. Nor should any church promote this utter double talk from the NCT crowd that Jesus is our Sabbath. The NT does not teach this drivel, it is great error, which should be obvious to anyone that reads the Gospels.
Bob said: Notice the next time a sermon is preached in an SDA church, it uses OT scripture and more EGW than scripture.
Tom said: I am not defending what the SDA’s teach, much less their misuse of Ellen White.
Moreover, when Ellen White was alive, the SDA’s did NOT use her writings from the pulpit or even place them in the SS Lessons. It was specifically forbidden. Why? Because she did not have any doctrinal authority. It was only after her death, when the White Estate started promoting Ellen White as a second scripture, that this nonsense overwhelmed the church and is now destroying it.
Bob said: EGW claims that the greatest commandment is the 4th with a halo around it, Christ claims love God and one another as the greatest.
Tom said: The SDA’s were correct about a number of points, including the fact that Sunday is false doctrine and that only the 7th day can be the correct NC Sabbath for the church. Too bad they misunderstood the Gospel and became legalists. This caused them to misunderstand the Sabbath and embrace a false view of the 7th day. This needs to be corrected asap.
Bob said: What would the SDA church look like with a little tweaking?
Tom said: If the SDA’s repent, they could go forward to develop the 4th Angels Message. This is the most correct and sophisticated of all the Advent Messages. Then they will have a correct view of the Gospel and the Sabbath, as well as hermeneutics and eschatology, which includes the Judgment.
It would be a church where Gospel truth is featured, and where people flock to find salvation, hope, and meaningful fellowship.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
Whoa horsie, where did you find that formers didn't leave because of ellen? Is there some new research out there that i haven't read? Ellen is the cause of lack of Bible reasoning. Her word trumps scripture and she embellished scripture so much that she couldn't be trusted. People leaving is all about wllen. She was the mastermind of the cult. I left because of her and so did the remainder of my family that has left. My, former SDA, friends left because of her. My companions on CARM reveal the same. Go to the anti SDA websites and read the testimonies of those who left. Almost all mention ellen and her falsehood. Again, where do your numbers come from?
Your second paragraph directly negates the first one.
It would take more than a little tweaking to morph the Adventist church into a mainline Christian church. I think you are hopeful this will happen and it did with the WWCOG. They had much less baggage to deal with. I believe we have to continue to give the Good News to individual SDAs one at a time and the Holy Spirit to work on their hearts. If we would all endeavorer to do this it wouldn't take long before Adventists would find the real truth and the SDA doors would start closing.
Last edited by bshields (04-07-12 10:57 am)
Offline
Bsheilds said; Whoa horsie, where did you find that formers didn't leave because of ellen?
Tom replied: It was Bob that took that view. Not Tom Norris. Of course this is why the SDA’s are self-destructing. The White Estate has ruined Adventism, even as they have destroyed Ellen White’s true contribution to the Advent Movement.
It was Bob who said: “I've found it's not EGW why people leave but lack of Biblical reasoning for positions taken.”
I refuted his point by saying: Today, it is clear that the many issues swirling around Ellen White, like her inspiration, legalism, plagiarism, and cultism, - is why the majority of SDA’s leave the church. This is not my opinion, but what people always say when they leave.
I could post the testimony of one former SDA after another; all saying that Ellen White is the main reason why they left…
Bsheilds said: Is there some new research out there that i haven't read? Ellen is the cause of lack of Bible reasoning. Her word trumps scripture and she embellished scripture so much that she couldn't be trusted. People leaving is all about Ellen.
Tom said: I agree! Today, Ellen White is the major reason why people stream out of the SDA church. And until the White Estate repents for what they have done, and corrects the record, the SDA’s are doomed to irrelevance and well deserved self-destruction. Look around, this is what is happening.
Bsheils said: She was the mastermind of the cult.
Tom said: Wrong. Here is where the myths from the White Estate cause problems. The fact of the matter is that James White was the “mastermind” and organizer of the SDA’s. This idea that Ellen White had great power and authority in Battle Creek is mythical nonsense by the White Estate. It was her husband who had all the power and the control. The White Estate overlooked such a fact of history because they wanted to market Ellen White like the Mormons promoted Joseph Smith. So they embellished her role and her authority, even creating a false hermeneutic that the Pioneers never endorsed.
To prove this point, just look at what happened to Ellen White after James died in 1881. She was not given any authority or power, even as she was out of the County for much of the time. And when she came back to America, and tried to get involved in the 1888 debates, the leaders rudely dismissed her views, even as she was exiled to Australia in 1891 for a decade in order to get rid of her.
Is this how “masterminds” are treated? Hardly.
The White Estate has so embellished the story of Ellen White as to be fictional. This is why the record must be corrected. Do not believe everything that White Estate teaches about Ellen White, much of it is false and wrong.
Bsheilds said: I left because of her and so did the remainder of my family that has left. My, former SDA, friends left because of her. My companions on CARM reveal the same. Go to the anti SDA websites and read the testimonies of those who left. Almost all mention ellen and her falsehood. Again, where do your numbers come from?
Tom said: I agree that Ellen White is the primary cause for the demise of modern Adventism. You must be talking about Bob, because he is the one who denied that Ellen is the problem, not Tom Norris.
Bsheilds said: It would take more than a little tweaking to morph the Adventist church into a mainline Christian church.
Tom said: I agree. But the SDA’s are closer to truth than many others. The Three Angels Messages is a remarkable path for the church to embrace, even as the SDA’s were correct to understand that there must be major doctrinal reforms prior to the 2nd Coming.
Besides, who says the “mainline” churches are correct? They are not. They are full of false and silly doctrine, including much confusion and error about the Sabbath and most everything else. Sorry.
Furthermore, the object is not to try and emulate the confusion and error of the mainline churches, most of which are dying themselves. But to find Gospel truth.
The goal is to find the genuine Gospel and to understand credible, 21st century eschatology that will prepare the church for the Tribulation and the 2nd Coming to follow. This is a noble and necessary mission, and the SDA’s were correct to embrace it.
Bsheilds said: I think you are hopeful this will happen, and it did with the WWCOG. They had much less baggage to deal with.
Tom said: Do not underestimate the Advent Movement. It has had a positive and lasting influence on the way that all denominations view eschatology.
The fact that the SDA’s came along and tried to keep this movement going forward is not the problem. It was a noble attempt to keep the search for truth active and progressive.
Moreover, at some point, the NT shows that a segment of the Laodicean Church will repent and find the genuine Gospel. See Rev 18. Will this group be the SDA’s? Not if they refuse to repent and embrace Gospel Reform.
But regardless, at some point, a portion of the last church will repent and go forward with Gospel truth. It is inevitable. Maybe not in our lifetime, but at some point, such prophecy will be fulfilled and eschatology will continue to unfold for all to see.
Bsheilds said: I believe we have to continue to give the Good News to individual SDAs one at a time and the Holy Spirit to work on their hearts.
Tom said: Where is this correct Gospel that you speak of? Ha! What a delusion. There is no such theology as you pretend. Which is why every church embraces a false view of the Sabbath and many other errors.
Only when the Gospel is correctly understood, can the doctrine of the Sabbath also be understood correctly. Those that think Jesus fulfilled and then abolished the Sabbath have a false Gospel that is no better than the SDA errors.
So what is the point? Today the blind are following the blind and all of Laodicea has fallen into the ditch of false doctrine.
Bsheilds said: If we would all endeavorer to do this it wouldn't take long before Adventists would find the real truth and the SDA doors would start closing.
Tom said: I have carefully followed the many pastors and theologians that have left the church. While there were correct to point out the many errors of the SDA’s, they offered very little corrections.
Nor have they found the Gospel Sabbath as they all pretend. In fact, they have found no worthwhile eschatology either. So what have they accomplished? They are all still stuck with great error and double-talk, not even able to understand the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Where is Gospel Truth for today? It does not exist within any organized religion or church, and neither does the NC Sabbath. Which is why Christ condemns every church in Laodicea, not just the SDA’s.
So I say again, Adventist Reform, with its’ correct view of the Sabbath, is the proper path, not only for the dying Adventist Movement, but also for all that want to follow Present Truth.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline