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Maggie Bockmann said: So, the SDA's would have been better off to just be Protestants and not take that God-inspired 44-year detour into legalism that Ellen White led us into.
Tom said: First, the Advent Movement is Protestant, and so too are the SDA's.
Consequently, the SDA's should have never forgotten the Gospel or confused the Judgment of the Second Coming with the IJ. These two pillars, the Protestant Gospel and the Judgment of the Second Coming, are foundational for all SDA theology and doctrine. There is no excuse for them to have gotten things so wrong.
Second, the SDA's formulated a correct Protestant Hermeneutic. They were clear that Ellen White, in spite of her visions, had zero doctrinal authority. In fact, this was such a major point for the 19th century SDA's, that they did not even allow any of Ellen White's writings to be used in the pulpit or in the SS Lessons.
But of course we did not live during that period of Adventism, so it seems strange for us to even hear of a time when Ellen White was not promoted in the same way as the Bible. How bad is that?
The hermeneutical problem begins in Takoma Park, after the founders were gone. Here is where the White Estate promoted Ellen White in an absurd and incorrect manner that she would never support. They claimed she was a prophet like in the OT, even as they gave her doctrinal authority and used her like a club to control the church with fear. Every sermon featured Ellen White's writings, and so too did every Sabbath School lesson. The SDA's became the cult of Ellen White. And it ruined many.
This misrepresentation of Ellen White or her theology was a huge mistake that has ruined many peoples lives, even as it has destroyed the SDA's. Unless this fraud is confessed and the leaders repent, this is the end of the line for SDA's. Others will step forward and complete the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages.
Third, Ellen White was not to blame for the church falling into legalism. All their scholars went in that direction, and so too did Ellen White. While this is wrong, the same thing happened to the apostolic church. If Peter and James can fall into legalism, and still be apostles in good standing at the end of the day, so too can Ellen White, who was not an apostle.
Fourth: Had it not been for Ellen White, no one would even know what happened in 1888, much less that she came out on the right side.
She is the one that stood up and protested the false Gospel of Uriah Smith. She is the one that made a record of this period so that the church would never forget what happened. And she is the one that has paid the price. Not only because she was exiled and rudely dismissed by her contemporaries, but also because the White Estate would hide her 1888 record and fabricate a different story of her life.
What a tragedy that the White Estate suppressed Ellen White's account of 1888. Even worse, they taught everyone that she supported Uriah Smiths legalistic theology when the opposite was the case. What wolves the SDA's have turned out to be. They have destroyed themselves. It is their own fault.
So don't blame Ellen White; blame the White Estate and the GC leaders who put this massive fraud into action before they even owned the legal rights to Ellen White's writings. The SDA church has been dishonest from their very first days in Takoma Park, and even in Battle Creek. And now look at the mess they have created?
When the smoke clears from this stunning fraud, Ellen White will be viewed as a Protestant hero. For that is what she has turned out to be. However, Arthur White, Froom, and others will be condemned in the process. Along with Spectrum, and the Review, and Atoday and all those that closed their eyes and let the White Estate continue on with their criminal activity.
Maggie said: That would "change everything" in that SDA's really don't have a reason to exist, except for an example of what not to do, i.e., follow a legalistic Prophetess around the desert of legalism for four years longer than the Israelites followed Moses around the desert of old.
Tom said; Maggie, your bitterness towards Ellen White is understandable. Many are angry about how they were raised and how their lives have been made worse because of Ellen White. But the Advent Movement was started before Ellen White was alive. She had nothing to do with its origins. She joined the Millerite paradigm and associated with those that pushed it forward. Good for her! Let her live her life as she chooses.
You need to stop confusing the White Estate's version of Ellen White with the real person of history. This is wrong. And you need to stop living in the past, like Spectrum. Many SDA's live in denial and in the past. But such a delusion solves nothing. Spectrum is a good example of this. All they have to offer is stale questions from previous generations. Questions that they never answered and still avoid answering today. Pitiful.
The SDA's have a reason to exist. But it has zero to do with Ellen White. They exist to follow and promote the Three Angels Messages and develop the 4th and final Message of Rev 18. They exist to prepare the church for the Great Time of Trouble and the Second Coming. They exist to proclaim the Protestant Gospel in the context of the end of the world and the Second Coming.
Too bad they have failed in their mission.
Maggie said: So Seventh-day Adventism is a cautionary tale: be very careful when people tell you they're getting messages from God. Right. I've got that one down.
Tom said: No; you don't have this straight as yet. You still think that your personal version of Ellen White, which is Arthur White's cultic fabrication, is the real deal. No doubt she is real enough to you, but it is a fraud nonetheless. The Ellen White of your youth is a dangerous fabrication. And the sooner you grasp this fact, the quicker you will be able to start a meaningful recovery from the cultic damage of Traditional Adventism.
Besides, what has happened to the SDA church is normative. The Jews double-talked themselves into oblivion, and so too the Apostolic church, they went bad very quickly and became a corrupt persecuting power for centuries. Even the Protestants went bad and so it goes over and over. By the time we come to the Last Church, the Laodiceans, they are viewed as the worst of all the 7 church eras. There is zero good said about them or any denomination in the last days.
So the SDA's are not the only ones condemned in the LM. They are hardly the first to get everything all wrong and backwards. It happens to everyone in the JC paradigm. This is why the SDA's must submit to the LM and repent for what they have done. There is no other option if they want to retain their association with the Kingdom of God.
Those, like Maggie, who are still angry about how a negative, legalistic, and pushy Ellen White ruined their lives, need to transfer that anger to the White Estate, as well as to the large supporting cast of fools. This includes Spectrum, a sham of a publication that after 40 years still can't seem to report the facts about Ellen White. They are still in denial about the real issues, even as they pretend that their snobby publication is relevant. They are a worthless, self-absorbed publication that has no idea how to define or save the Advent Movement. All they do is recycle worthless babble, never solving anything.
Today, every Adventist has the right to demonize and condemn Daniels, Arthur White, and Froom for what they have done, as well as the Review. Ellen White gave none of them permission to censor or misrepresent her writings. They had no right to fabricate her views about prophecy or hermeneutics, much less about the law and the Gospel.
Shame on the White Estate! And shame on those worthless papers like the Review, Spectrum, and Atoday that ignore the real issues so that can promote propaganda and fake reform. Don't be fooled by all this nonsense that has propped up the SDA church for decades. Fancy graphics do not save, and neither does double-talk nor false doctrine.
So get angry with those that have so misrepresented Ellen White and her theology all these years. They are the guilty party. They are responsible for all this confusion, false doctrine, and schism. Not the real Ellen White. She is the victim in all this White Estate fraud. All should stand up and protest the White Estate. All should demand that the record be corrected.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris, who knows the real Ellen White
Last edited by tom_norris (03-28-10 10:58 am)
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Third, Ellen White was not to blame for the church falling into legalism. All their scholars went in that direction, and so too did Ellen White.
Luther rediscovered The just shall live by faith, almost 500 years ago.
The SDAs, who were spurred on by Ellen White and the Brethren and the fear they promulgated, fell back into legalism.
Therefore, IMO, Adventism did not carry the Protestant Reformation forward, as claimed, but rather created a retroversion to a pre-Reformation type religious system.
That it took Ellen White four years longer than the Israelites wandering in the desert of old to figure out what Protestantism meant does not auger well for the stuff she put forth before 1888, which she never repudiated, confounding this movement hopelessly.
Why would God lead people backwards into legalism when He really wanted to lead them forward to Righteousness by Faith and the Eschaton?
The Protestants who never took that detour you know, the Fallen Churches were arguably in a better position than the Adventists.
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That it took Ellen White four years longer than the Israelites wandering in the desert of old to figure out what Protestantism meant does not auger well for the stuff she put forth before 1888, which she never repudiated, confounding this movement hopelessly.
I think Ellen White progressed in her views, as we all do. I have been posting on this forum for one or two years now, just one or two years, but my views have developed considerably.
When a person accepts, or submits, to Jesus as their Lord and Savior, I believe the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit takes on a new role in that person's life. They are no longer happy, or content, in their sins failings.
I believe that Ellen White's love of Jesus rescued her from herself, much as my love for Jesus has done that for me, or for anyone who follows Him. I recall reading how reverently exciting she and her help found their preparation of the Desire of Ages.
I have only been writing my views at atomorrow for a very short time, yet the experience has influenced me and developed me profoundly. Imagine the influence of writing volumes and volumes and essays and letters, etc, had upon EGW.
Ellen White certainly was not perfect. I sense a few blind spots that she had. My own mother had a few, too. I do as well. Perhaps you do, too. But, for the Christian, the love of Christ compels us. We are ruled by Christ's love. No longer are we content to be other than Christ-like in our character. All born again Christians, no matter the denominational stripe, have this experience. Ellen White did. I have.
Perhaps you have, too. This is not to brag, but just to be aware. The ideas of Jesus and the faith relationship established between the believer and Christ is deep and profound.
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Tom said that of EGW:
http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus … 89#POST389
She repudiated her error.
Tom, can you direct us to a repudiation statement. I don't recall ever reading where EGW admitted that she was in error. Even when she changed practice, such as when to start the Sabbath, the giving up of pork, etc., I don't recall her coming right out and saying, I was wrong.
There some of us here at atomorrow who are the same way, me thinks.
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif
Message edited by Don on February 21, 2009
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Tom,
Please clarify these points for me:
1. You say that the Review and Pacific Press published the 1888 materials that you discovered in the White Estate. Are these what are called the Manuscript Releases?
Do you claim that the White Estate, GC Archives, or both are still hiding documents?
Thanks,
Ryan
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Toms claim that the White Estate, GC Archives, or both are still hiding documents?
I am looking forward to Tom's answer on this. Thought I would mention something. I recently did
http://adventisthistory.wordpress.com/2 … -timeline/
He was an unknown to me. I ran across his name studying other matters. In the the archives I read of a letter from Ellen White addressing Alonzo Barry's situation. I looked and looked for it. Eventually, I sent an email to the White Estate, asking if they knew about it. They sent me
http://essaysbyellenwhite.wordpress.com … nzo-barry/
and asked that I only publish it on my blog information relevant to him. To be fair to the process, I chose the relevant sections minus two paragraphs in the middle and returned an email asking if my decision suited their request. It did.
Now, I could say, Look, they are hiding something. Or, I could say, Look, how careful they are to manage sensitive material.
I imagine that there are many letters still not released. What we make of such is a matter of trust, I suppose. It is easy to fan the flames of distrust. Imagine what they are holding back, etc.
Now, Tom has been there. He saw practices and decisions with which he did not agree. That is different.
In my own experience with the White Estate, a whole two episodes, I have found them to be open and forthright.
The other, a minor concern to some not me: I noted that one released manuscript used the pronoun ifor the Holy Spirit while another used He. I think this was a letter EGW had written to Haskell. I emailed a question to the White Estate asking why the difference.
They admitted that at one point the people at the Estate considered it their task to make these minor adjustments. After all, EGW clearly viewed the Holy Spirit as a person. Then, they came to realize that it was not their task to make such adjustments. They returned the it to the document released. Now, it bothers me that the people at the White Estate could ever think that way.
After all, EGW's writings are not only inspired, they are a matter of history. To change even these small items in the record is to tamper with the historical record; at least the released part. They did not tamper with the actual letter kept in the files.
This is not totally unique. The Greek manuscripts of the New Testament don't always read exactly the same. There are variants; some accidental and others intended. The scribes are long gone so no one remains to explain the differences. The KJV contains variants various editions. See Gary Amirault's presentation at
http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/KJV.htm
One edition is called the Wicked Bible because the not of the Thou shalt not commit adultery was left out, probably on purpose. Some translations, such as the New International Readers Version, take liberties with the Greek to help the flow of their translation, etc.
Regarding Ellen White's writings, my appeal, and apparently the present generation at the White Estate agrees, You are not only managing a spiritual trust, you are managing an historical one. Even if the spiritual trust seems to be in conflict with the historical one, the historical one must prevail.
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I think Ellen White progressed in her views, as we all do.
Ellen White certainly was not perfect.
It's not as though we're responding to an ordinary individual.
This woman gave us messages from God's lips to our ears, and we ignored them on pain of the fate of Korah.
And...for forty-four years, she marched us around the desert of legalism.
When, with help from presumably less-inspired friends, she saw the light that Luther saw in the sixteenth century, she demonized the brethren who were only continuing the inspired path she had only recently trod and promoted.
Just like she, some forty years earlier, demonized the Fallen Churches when they refused to take the Adventist cultic detour and reject Protestantism.
The Adventists boasted that they were progressing the Protestant Reformation. The Fallen Churches saw through that, and that's why they were so labeled.
There is no way to sort this out but for SDAs to individuate and think for themselves.
Ellen White left a mess that cannot be sorted out without doing violence to one's mental and moral faculties, IMO.
Message edited by maggie on February 21, 2009
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Maggie,
IMHO 40 years in denomination will leave its permanent marks to one's faculties, quite independent of one's leaving the fold or remaining there, as so many of us so eloquently - some unwillingly - testify.
Not until recent years I've started evaluating the problem:
How much I've mentally, morally, intellectually, economically etc forfeited to the denomination?
At the age 19, measured by scholarly aptitude admittedly an unofficial assesment, but I have on paper the calculations I have used as a basis for my claim, I belonged to the best 1/1000 of those born 1941 in Finland and still living 1960.
Actually I intended to couple this isssue with the ethics, mediacal vs. clerical title, but when I read your message, I could not resist the temptation.
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There is no way to sort this out but for SDAs to individuate and think for themselves.
I agree that thinking for one's self is key.
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I agree that thinking for one's self is key.
How can one say that they think for themselves and hold to the belief that Mrs. White's council was from God and must be followed or at least some semblance of following? She was famous for whipping the brethren into compliance with her wishes. How could/can anyone grow by making their own mistakes when they were/are under her control? Good Adventists are nothing but robots to the system. They are judged by how well they comply with the council of Ellen.
Where is Jesus and the Holy Spirit in this picture?
For the 44 years that Mrs. White taught the falsehood of legalism, how many went to their graves not ever knowing the real joy of living a vibrant Christian life? What a pity and yet she is revered by some.
Those Adventists who deny her council, but still support the church are doing a real disfavor to those new souls who blindly buy into the system and are taught that she is God's special messenger.
When I realized she was not all the church taught she was, I stopped proselytizing and withdrew my support.
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How could/can anyone grow by making their own mistakes when they were/are under her control? Good Adventists are nothing but robots to the system. They are judged by how well they comply with the council of Ellen.
When I first started to study on my own, trying to nail down SDA teachings, only to find that they could not be found in the Bible, I asked a pastor/friend what one should do if they have earnestly prayed for guidance but found that the Bible disagrees with EGW. His response was to pray again. In other words, pray until the Bible agrees with EGW. What does that say about personal prayer and confidence in the HS to lead us personally into all truth?
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I don't recall her coming right out and saying, I was wrong.
Nor should it be expected of a prophet.
Her status would go down the tubes had she ever admitted to a mistake or being wrong. Even I was wrong once---I think
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I asked a pastor/friend what one should do if they have earnestly prayed for guidance but found that the Bible disagrees with EGW. His response was to pray again.</font></b>
I think there is a better answer, though praying without ceasing is good, too.
http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif
Today in our Sabbath School class we read <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2012&version=50" target="_blank">1 Samuel 12:1-16</a>. The verse that caught my attention:<blockquote><font color="0000ff">11 And the LORD sent Jerubbaal, Bedan, Jephthah, and Samuel, and delivered you out of the hand of your enemies on every side; and you dwelt in safety. </font></blockquote>Jerubbaal is Gideon. Gideon was chosen and led of God. Yet, after his wonderful victory, <blockquote><font color="0000ff"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judg%208:22-29;&version=46;" target="_blank">Judges 8:27-29</a> <BR> <BR>
Gideon returned to his home in Ophrah and had the gold made into a statue, which the Israelites soon started worshiping. They became unfaithful to God, and even Gideon and his family were trapped into worshiping the statue.</font></blockquote>Gideon could rightfully be called God's man. Yet, he ended up setting up an idol. How were the people to be protected from a man of God, sent of God, who teaches error? Read:<blockquote><font color="0000ff"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut.%2013:1-3;&version=51;" target="_blank">Deuteronomy 13:1-3</a> (NLT) <BR> <BR>
1 “Suppose there are prophets among you or those who dream dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, 2 and the predicted signs or miracles occur. If they then say, ‘Come, let us worship other gods’—gods you have not known before— 3 do not listen to them. The Lord your God is testing you to see if you truly love him with all your heart and soul. </font></blockquote>Gideon was a man of God, a prophet (if you will). Yet, he led the people into worshipping of false gods. Think for yourselves, Israel. Don't let Gideon lead you astray. The only way out of this mess was for the Israelites to individuate and think for themselves. <BR> <BR>
Now, I don't view Ellen White's counsels as "marching us around a desert of legalism". But, what if I did. Think for yourself, Don Sands. If I lived in Gideon's day, I would have to. If I was one of Noah's sons and realized Dad was drunk and naked, I would have to think for myself. If I found out that my national hero, a musician and inspired man of God, had committed adultery and murdered to cover it up. What should I do? Throw out all the Psalms that David wrote? No, think for yourself, Don Sands. <BR> <BR>
What if I read of atrocities in the Bible that offend my view of God and His love? Think for yourself, Don Sands. Turn to Jesus. As a Christian, I think for myself in the presence of Jesus who is in the presence of Almighty God. But, even in their presence, I think for myself. Part of thinking for myself is having a teachable spirit. Thus, I am open to being taught by God. I am wary of what people teach me. God knows this. I think He likes it. <IMG SRC="
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No, think for yourself, Don Sands.
As did I and so, here I am.
This happened when I was totally immersed in Adventism and found what I was discovering very upsetting; but I couldn't deny what was right in front of my face as I studied on my own. It's not that easy to follow the lamb wherever he goes.
Sometimes he goes right out the door, and you wish he didn't.
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Think for yourself, but only from the <i>Approved Thoughts</i> list?
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...or else God will burn you alive.
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Those who are truly allowing the Holy Spirit to teach them are being led to the door. This happened to me Sirge. I had to decide whether or not to open it and be led further.
We have, on this forum, explained many of the reasons why the Spirit doesn't want us to remain inside that door, but those on the inside continue to either overlook pleadings or have decided to remain because of the comfort level. The unknown is sometimes frightening, especially if one does not accept and trust the Spirit that is gently tugging.
Those who have studied the writings of Mrs. White know of the threats she poses if her subjects decide to leave the fold. Once the truth is known, as formulated by the SDA Church, and we turn our backs on it, we are surely lost souls. Only by returning to the safety of the ship will we have a 1 in 20 chance of being saved. Is this mind control or what.
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Think for yourself, but only from the Approved Thoughts list?
Good thought Maggie. And over look the obvious, I might add.
Bob
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Bob Sands said: Christ's Son died for sinners, and those that don't accept his gift and continue to sin, will be punished, but if they repent they can become an activist about what Christians will receive because of Jesus. Even become Activists about that good.
Since you like to correct others I thought I might take the liberty to do unto you what you do to us.
Jesus was the one who died for us, not Christ's son. Christ didn't have children and only Jesus died for us.
Those that don't accept his gift will be punished, period. Even though we have accepted His redemption we all continue to sin.
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Bob Shields, corrections noted, thanks.
Maggie, live with your beliefs, and their consequences. Sin will be purged, thank God!!!
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Thanks Ryan, Tom started a very interesting thread and it is shameful that ..... has hijacked it. Lets go back to the thoughts of Tom and see if what he believes about Ellen being made into something she never was.
Tom said:
First off, let's understand that the real history of Ellen White is not in the public domain. So everyone needs to be very careful about any assumptions or conclusions they may have formed over the years. Propaganda, no matter how often repeated and published, can never become fact, much less doctrine for the church.
I have been in the White Estate, and have been studying this history for decades, and that is the only reason I understand what has taken place. This is why I can explain it. The fact of the matter is this: The Takoma Park apologists crafted a false version of Ellen White. They fabricated a fraud and marketed it to millions of trusting people.
Exhibit #1: The real Ellen White of Battle Creek had no doctrinal authority, nor were her writings allowed to be read from the pulpit or printed in the Sabbath School lessons. --But the White Estate took the opposite position.
About doctrinal authority, didn't Ellen sit in on the formation of doctrines? She said she did.
She along with others worked many hours, sometimes into the late hours trying to formulate the doctrines that have become the fundamentals of Adventism. She would go into vision and settle disputes that the body could not agree upon. To say that she had no doctrinal authority, to me, is a misnomer.
As to whether the writings of Ellen were ever read in Sabbath School or in church assemblies I have no information. I would like for Tom to further explain and give us written information as to how he came to this conclusion. And just because her writings were never published in the Quarterlies doesn't mean that her thoughts were never brought up in class of from the pulpit.
This is a good place to start and I would appreciate it if Tom would stay around and give us feedback.
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All the Sabbath School Quarterlies from 1888 - 1997 are available online at
http://www.adventistarchives.org/docume … Order=True
Determining when they began quoting from her could be time consuming, but the answer is within reach.
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H.M.S. Richards Sr. to C. Mervyn Maxwell - 1959 - EGW's Advice to a Preacher
http://www.andrews.edu/~jmoon/Documents … ine/07.pdf
Voice of Prophecy
P. O. Box 55
Los Angeles 53, California
[ca. 1956-1959]
Pastor C. Mervyn Maxwell
5555 S. Ingleside
Chicago 37, Illinois
Dear Brother Maxwell:
My father tells me his experience with Sister White was as follows: She came unexpectedly to Denver when he was ready to preach one Sabbath morning. He tried to get her to speak, and she insisted that he speak, since he had asked God for a message and believed that God had given him one. She was not willing to take the place of a man who was to speak under such conditions.
She listened to him, and at the close told him that his sermon had been a blessing to her, but she also told him that if he kept talking as he did, straining his voice, that he would soon die. In about fifteen minutes she gave him more instruction, he said, on how to use his voice and how to speak in public, than he had learned from his whole course in Battle Creek College. To my father’s dying day he had a sweet voice, as everyone testifies who heard him, both in the pulpit and over the radio.
Then my father asked Sister White how to use her writings in his preaching ministry. Here was her reply in brief: “When you choose a subject, go to the Bible and study it from the Bible thoroughly. Learn it thoroughly from the Holy Scriptures, learn everything the Scriptures have to say on that subject, so that you are complete master of the topic as far as the Scriptures are concerned. After this, go to these writings of the Spirit of Prophecy. See what they say on the subject for sidelights and true emphasis, and to be sure that you are absolutely right in your interpretation. Then go to the people and preach that subject to the people out of the Bible.” This was her definite instruction to him.
I suppose this would not preclude a reference now and then to some phrase or sentence or brief quotation. Certainly it does not mean that we should take a pile of books into the pulpit and read the wonderful things in the Spirit of Prophecy and call it a sermon.
In one of her books she says, [“The words of] “the Bible, and the Bible alone, should be heard [from] the pulpit”
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/pk/pk51.html
I am sure that you are acquainted with that quotation. May God bless you there in your ministry. Don’t forget us in your prayers.
Most sincerely yours in the message of Christ,
H. M. S. Richards
Note: Distributed by CMM with permission of Elder Richards.
See also: H. M. Richards Sr. with N. R. Dower,
http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/M … pts&page=5
The Editor Interviews H. M. S. Richards
http://www.celartem.com/en/download/djvu.asp
Ministry October 1976: 5-7.
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After this, go to these writings of the Spirit of Prophecy. See what they say on the subject for sidelights and true emphasis, and to be sure that you are absolutely right in your interpretation.
Don,
This all sounds great as far as it goes, but then you have the above which makes EGW the ultimate interpreter of the Bible. If anyone should find a different interpretation after they felt that God had given them a message, as did the pastor in the story above, then what?
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Is it possible to access the current SS lessons via the internet?
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