Prayer: How Effective Is It?

elaine · 05-02-09 9:43 pm

Christianity Today May 2009 reports: "What Do Prayer Studies Prove? Three years ago a landmark study carefully designed to put the debate to rest went public. The study: "The Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP), conducted under the auspices of Harvard Medical School, is the largest and most comprehensive of its kind. The study required 10 years and $2.4 million, and was mainly underwritten by the John Templeton Foundation, a suporter of studies that explore the intersection between religion and science. STEP was simple and elegant, conforming to standard research norms and protocols: 1,802 patients, all admitted for coronary artery bypass graft surgery, were divided into three randomized groups. Two of the groups received prayer from committed Christians with experience praying for the sick. But only one group's member knew they were being prayed for. The result: The group whose members knew they were being prayed for did worse (ital. supl) in terms of post-operative complications than those whose members were unsure if they were receiving prayer. The knowledge that they were prayed for by a special group of intercessors seemed to have a negative effect on their health. The two groups that were unsure of whether they were receiving prayer were also compared. One group actually received prayer (the same group mentioned above), while the other did not. This time, the group that had received prayer experienced more major complications than the group without additional prayer. In other words, the study seemed to show that prayer--at least prayer from strangers--might be bad for one's health. The real scandal of the study is not that the prayed-for group did worse, but that the not-prayed-for group received just as much, if not more, of God's blessings. In other words, God seems to have granted favor without regard to either the quantity or even the quality of the prayers.

bob_2 · 05-03-09 12:40 am

May God's will be done, we are taught to pray. I saw a minister of our church die of cancer after many a prayer and an annointing and laying on of hands. Do the results surprise you Elaine, if so you are naive. God never promised to say, Yes, every time, but to answer prayers, which could be no, yes, maybe, eh???? Check out what happened after the pleadings of Hezekiah: 2 Kings 20 Be careful what you pray for, and obey God and take him seriously. Hezekiah was healed after prayer, but did evil during his extended life, only to embarass God's chosen people. One of the best stories in the Bible about answered prayer and using the time badly.

elaine · 05-03-09 7:56 pm

No, the results would have surprised me if such a case had been miraculously "cured." The question is: why pray if God is all-knowing or do we believe and hope that our prayers will influence Him to go against nature when someone's life has been filled with cancer? If you know of a miraculous cure that was answered by prayer, please share it with us. Otherwise, keep fantasizing. How is that different from the priests of Baal who Elijah said to "pray louder, to make sure your god will hear you." If imprecations to God were effective, please share them with us.

bob_2 · 05-03-09 10:35 pm

What is the Purpose of Prayer? <a href="http://www.focusongod.com/Exodus-4_1-17.htm" target=_top>http://www.focusongod.com/Exodus-4_1-17.htm</a> Elaine, maybe not the answer you are looking for, but: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Your life’s struggles should be the content of prayer. Discovering God’s mission for your life is the focus of prayer. Accepting God’s provision is the means to living out God’s mission. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Was just selfish gain you were looking for, Elaine??

john8verse32 · 05-04-09 9:50 am

its not enuf to be right.... ...Was just selfish gain you were looking for, Elaine but its also important to be persuasive: is there a bad, a good, and a better way to say things at times? ..."I wonder if God places as much interest in fullfilling our personal gains and needs as He does in seeing that the overall picture is complete?" (thereby taking the personal, sarcastic barb out of the statement) George Carlin sure doesn't think so!!!!! or at least he didn't (RIP) <a href="http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=George_Carlin" target=_top>http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=George_Carlin</a>

george · 05-04-09 3:36 pm

Actually, Elaine, I can give you a story that looks like a miracle of healing as a result of prayer. The husband of one of my former students here in Nova Scotia was diagnosed with a tumor right behind one of his eyes. He had gone to see a doctor because of terrible head aches and visual problems and the tumor was discovered by ultrasound (or something). He was scheduled for surgery at the university affiliated hospital. Before surgery they did another scan to map out the perimeters of the tumor as they prepared for surgery and found the tumor was gone - not to be found anywhere. the doctors were truly baffled. This guy comes from Ireland and was a marginal SDA when he met this girl who was touring the Irish churches with her sisters as part of singing group. I know the story very well since the girl is my daughter's good friend. Her family has always been extremely straight laced and a source of a few unusual happenings. I was incredulous at first but the story seems legit. The truth is, there can be no miracle that convinces people of God's intervention. There are always reasons to think that something else happened, either by misdiagnosis or some kind of spontaneous remission. Those who believe will believe all the more, but those who don't can't be convinced. I guess that's why Jesus refused to do miracles on request because they prove nothing. Yes, welcome back Don.

john8verse32 · 05-04-09 4:07 pm

I know 2nd hand of a miraculous answer to prayer..... the story was told to me around the campf...ah, dinner table, up in Anchorage, AK..... it seems that years ago, there was a terrible blizzard, and folks were worried about a widow there, living alone, probably snowbound, whom they had not heard from for some time..... the church all prayed for her safety.... the widow told the story later that she also prayed for her safety, and sure enuf, almost immediately, the Lord sent an angel who came down from up above, brought her food, and relit her kerosine stove for her...saved her life as she told it to the SDA paper up there in the NW.... apparently folks from the GC even verified the miracle, and published it...I saw the article, talked with the lady who was the recipient of the miracle. But later, the old guy who kept care of the church admitted to me, under secrecy, that it had been he who had snowshoed up the snow drifts blocking her door, and he climbed thru a 2nd floor window, wearing his WW2 white camo parka, looking like a big white angel... he descended the stairs... she saw him and fainted.... he relit the fire, left some food, and when she seemed better, he ascended upwards to heav...ah, climbed up to the 2nd floor to exit the window into the snowdrift.... later her phone got reconnected, and she told the tale of the miraculous angel of the lord who had come to save her. but I do believe that miracles can happen....just finished watching the Celtics beat the Bulls in 7 games, after a half dozen nerve rattling overtimes!!! hope there's another miracle left for the Red Sox as they battle the Dmn Yankees tonite. Btw, the real reason we had to invade iraq? Saddamn was a vile supporter of the evil empire. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/89/1188.jpg" alt=""> usually, Saddamn had made his own miracles, but even he finally came to the end of his rope....

john8verse32 · 05-04-09 4:19 pm

I know 2nd hand of another miracle.... my best friend here in NE was diagnosed with a brain tumor, as was my cousin out in Cal.... both were fundy SDA's, seemingly happy, vegetarians, non drinkers, never smoked, with supportive wives and good jobs with no financial hardships.... and (good news), their tumors were NOT located on the side of their heads where they (rarely0 used their cell phones. Churcheson the Righteous and Leftist coasts all prayed for their speedy recovery after surgury to remove the out of control growths... Both had radiation to kill off any remaining cancerous cells. Here on the east coast, my friend got wide spectrum rads, and he lost his hair, then the use of one side of his body, then despite prayers from all over, eventually he succomed to the disease. My cousin, out in Loma Linda got bombarded by the proton gun (thank you, congressman jerry pettis) with such a narrowly focused beam that he got away with no side effects, and after 3 yrs, appears to have beaten it, and is back teaching at an SDA school. so prayer works....but only for some!!! God has a plan? and if you're not in it, too bad? or was the difference the narrow proton beam vs the wide spectrum radiation? iow, man's invention in Loma Linda provided the opportunity to make a miracle that God alone could not help accomplish back in Boston with just wide spectrum radiation? Good news: Mass General in beantown now has their own atom smasher...finally.....so if my prostate acts up, or one of those golf balls shows up inside my brain, I don't need to move to shakeytown. But even Kennedy isn't sure of the doc's experience with it yet, so he went out of state for his tumor treatment.

elaine · 05-04-09 6:14 pm

Then there are "reverse miracles." My husband (who did not diagnose the original pathological slide) knew of a woman who was diagnosed by another physician as having breast ca. She had a mastectomy. After surgery, the specimen revealed not a sign of ca. Voila! She was healed of the breast ca she never had! Simply a misdiagnosis. It happens, folks. If in doubt, always get a 2nd or 3rd opinion.

renie · 05-04-09 8:19 pm

Sirje...... My 28 year old daughter had cervical cancer that spread to her brain. Her church had special prayer for her. Since she and her two little boys were living with me at the time, we prayed and prayed for her recovery. No miracle happened. She died in a lot of pain, leaving her two boys for my husband and I to raise. Because her ex was a brutal man, both boys ended up in prison. She was only 28 when she died. Why miracles for others but not for my daughter or me? renie

john8verse32 · 05-04-09 10:07 pm

Why miracles for others but not for my daughter or me? its almost better to think there are NO miracles, than to be confronted with the unfairness of personally directed miracles for some, but not all...

don · 05-04-09 10:16 pm

Why miracles for others but not for my daughter or me? This has got to be the hardest of all questions. We have no contemporary voice from God explaining why. Any attempt to explain "by faith" creates more problems than it solves. All that I (we) can do is wait on the LORD and live on. Renie, because of what you have gone through, you can help where others can't. My Grade 6 school teacher lost her husband that year. When my Dad died, she came over to be with Mom. She understood and was a compassionate help to Mom. Our griefs qualify us to share the griefs of others. .

elaine · 05-04-09 10:17 pm

Renie, your sad story should be a reminder that those who pray hard and long for miracles are setting themselves up not only for disappointment but refusing to believe in God who failed them. This did not happen to you, but it surely has to others.

bob_2 · 05-05-09 12:25 am

Welcome back, bro, although, your profile was always here, you were just busy, I tried to tell the group. However, I think they liked to believe the part of being behind the protected castle wall, you and Hubb. But, anyway.... I remember, that lady that helped Mom, not just helped Mom, but when Mom was so distraught she couldn't even tell her own kids that their father had died, this lady took that role for Mom and was the one that told all us kids that Dad was gone, passed on, I don't remember exactly the words she used but it was definitely SDA prose, eh??

lijhakim · 05-05-09 1:17 am

Arrows from the Castle wall Excuse the above remark, Renie. Let me offer some thoughts. I believe that God hears every prayer, and answers every prayer. Faith is not always the issue, as many people of faith have died in spite of prayers and anointing services. However, at the same time, we know of others who have been healed because of the prayer of faith. Another issue is: Is it best for the person him/her self? For some people to die is a merciful release from present or future troubles. If a person is healed, will his witness be enhanced by his/her death, or more by his/her healing. We live in a world of sin, disease, death. Some will be healed, particularly when their healing honors the name of God. For those not healed, remember that Jesus has promised to be with us till the end of time. We can always ask for His presence and comfort. Healing for many will be delayed until the second coming. I know that these things are of little comfort to you, and you have heard them before. But please hang on by faith to the hand of your God and ask for His comfort. --------------------- I had two younger brothers who were killed from hazardous sports -- one from a motorcycle accident, and the other from flying a home built plane (BD-5). In 2004 a very dear son-in-law, with whom we had lived close by for 24 years, died of an unexpected heart attack. These are life-changing events. For one, life is just not so much fun anymore. For another, there is a sadness that hangs over many of the common things of life that we shared, and can do so no longer. Friends will often express their regrets. I always respond with appreciation. Once in awhile a person will seem to be really interested, and I will begin to unburden my heart. In every such instance, I was immediately cut off. It seems that there is a universal inability for people to face death -- even the death of just an acquaintance. I mentioned this to another doctor several years ago. He immediately broke down in tears. His mother had died and there was no one to whom he could talk. He was so relieved to be able to talk to the several of us present at that time. (I never had a chance to talk out my grief for my two brothers. But that is OK.) I don't know if these things help at all. I have prayed for you, and know that Jesus will be with you as He has promised.

lijhakim · 05-05-09 1:30 am

Elaine, That is a very good question:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:"The question is: why pray if God is all-knowing or do we believe and hope that our prayers will influence Him to go against nature when someone's life has been filled with cancer?"<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>This is something that I get from reading the Bible, can't give any specific references. I believe that prayer gives God authority to act when He otherwise would not be able to do so. Satan claims to own this world and everyone in it. When a person prays to God, he is asking for His help, he is asking for God to intervene in Satan's kingdom. Lacking these prayers, Satan can simply claim that the person is his, and that he does not care. (Probably did not say it right)

george · 05-05-09 2:29 am

Renie, Your losses are truly heart wrenching. I'm an only child and I lost my mom while still in college and my dad was left alone just as my life was getting started - this after my parents had survived bombings and dramatic escapes from the war. Each of our losses are equally painful to those who experience them. I posted the story of an apparent miracle because that is what it was purported to be. Until it happens to you, we have questions. The one thing I can't accept is that God somehow allows innocence to suffer just to teach some kind of lesson. These little kids who are abducted, tortured, and killed don't deserve any of it, and I'm sure plenty of prayers are said on their behalf. It is better to think that there are no miracles than to believe that God allows some of this horror to take place, for whatever reason.

john8verse32 · 05-05-09 10:41 am

The one thing I can't accept is that God somehow allows innocence to suffer just to teach some kind of lesson. These little kids who are abducted, tortured, and killed don't deserve any of it agreed. now, how do we explain THIS? (CEV) Exodus 6:1 The LORD God told Moses: Soon you will see what I will do to the king. Because of my mighty power, he will let my people go, and he will even chase them out of his country. 2 My name is the LORD. 3 But when I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I came as God All-Powerful and did not use my name. 4 I made an agreement and promised them the land of Canaan, where they were living as foreigners. 5 Now I have seen how the people of Israel are suffering because of the Egyptians, and I will keep my promise. 6 Here is my message for Israel: "I am the LORD! And with my mighty power I will punish the Egyptians and free you from slavery.. ..... Exodus 10:1 The LORD said to Moses: Go back to the king. I have made him and his officials stubborn, so that I could work these miracles. 2 I did this because I want you to tell your children and your grandchildren about my miracles and about my harsh treatment of the Egyptians. Then all of you will know that I am the LORD. ... 27 This time the LORD made the king so stubborn 28 that he said to Moses, "Get out and stay out! If you ever come back, you're dead!" .... Exodus 11:1 The LORD said to Moses: I am going to punish the king of Egypt and his people one more time. Then the king will gladly let you leave his land, so that I will stop punishing the Egyptians... you Egyptians will know that the LORD is good to the Israelites, even while he punishes you. 8 Your leaders will come and bow down, begging me to take my people and leave your country.... 10 So the king of Egypt saw Moses and Aaron work miracles, but the LORD made him stubbornly refuse to let the Israelites leave his country... 21 Moses called the leaders of Israel together and said: Each family is to pick out a sheep and kill it for Passover. 22 Make a brush from a few small branches of a hyssop plant and dip the brush in the bowl that has the blood of the animal in it. Then brush some of the blood above the door and on the posts at each side of the door of your house. After this, everyone is to stay inside. 23 During that night the LORD will go through the country of Egypt and kill the first-born son in every Egyptian family.... 24 25 After you have entered the country promised to you by the LORD, you and your children must continue to celebrate Passover each year. 26 Your children will ask you, "What are we celebrating?" 27 And you will answer, "The Passover animal is killed to honor the LORD. We do these things because on that night long ago the LORD passed over the homes of our people in Egypt. He killed the first-born sons of the Egyptians, but he saved our children from death."

elaine · 05-05-09 1:10 pm

Death comes to all of us; some much too early, some later. We have little control over the time and we have never been promised immortality here. Who wants to live forever in this world, anyway? I have lost many very close relatives, some much too early, but prayer had nothing to do with it. When someone is going to die, since the beginning of history, we know they will die. It is only the illusion (or delusion) that allows the belief that prayer "changes things." The ony thing it changes is our attitude of acceptance, just as the Serenity prayer says: God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; Courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference. That's the only prayer God has promised to hear.

george · 05-05-09 2:44 pm

John, How do I explain that... It was the Hebrew perception of God's hand in whatever happened there. that goes for the rest of Hebrew history with regard to God's leading and directing stuff that the NT God, as represented by Jesus, would never do.

elaine · 05-05-09 7:33 pm

Sirje, How can Christians convince non-believers that Jesus is God--the God of the OT when there are so many differences? Can it all be blamed on the Hebrews' descriptions? Or, can we believe all the NT Hebrews who described Jesus so differently? Or, perhaps it was really those church fathers in the fourth century who tried (rather unsuccessfully for some) to create a "Trinity" with three representing God? There is nothing written by the Bible writers describing either the deity of Christ, the Trinity, or the human/divine nature of Christ. It all came centuries after Jesus was resurrected. Would it be so confusing if we simply accepted that there was a God described in the OT, and that Jesus was seen as a "Son of God" or "Son of Man" (as He described himself) in the NT, without trying to also give him the dual nature?

george · 05-05-09 8:45 pm

Elaine, For me the ONLY thing that places Jesus in a league of his own compared to other religious figures that are worshiped, is the resurrection story. It all hangs on whether or not Jesus lived after he died - and I wasn't there. Scientifically, it doesn't make sense, however, taking quantum physics to account and the fact that science is continually growing and evolving, I don't know what's ultimately possible. If the accounts of the resurrection are to be believed then Jesus is, as J.B. Philips describes, the aperture that reveals God in human form - which is the only way we could possibly relate to that kind of being. The operative word is IF... . That is where, as Paul says, we practice "the good fight of faith". -and for me the battle rages on. Faith, as I see it, is the choice we make to believe one thing or another, as far as reason and common sense allows each of us personally. There is nothing to argue about. Most things people believe have no reason behind it and, I think you'll agree, that is what faith is meant to be. If you believe only what you can prove then it wouldn't be faith.

elaine · 05-05-09 10:11 pm

Sirje, Had there been no resurrection, there would be no Christian church; something that too few SDAs seem to recall, emphasizing much more the primary doctrines in their name. Yes, it does take faith and that's why all the discussions trying to "prove" so many stories in the Bible. One either believes, or doesn't.

george · 05-06-09 7:17 am

Elaine, I think we miss the significance of Jesus calling himself "the Son of Man". Sometimes I dare to think that we are all Sons of God in the sense that He created man in his own image. The only sense in which we can be in God's image, it seems to me, is in our innate characteristics - ability to go beyond ourselves and love; being able to be creative; and the ability to laugh at ourselves (recognizing absurdities, which presupposes normatives - which connects us to the ultimate realities we have corporatively forgotten). If Jesus is our "brother" then he is just like us in every aspect and became the ultimate "Son of God", not at birth, but, as declared, at his baptism. Just a thought...

elaine · 05-06-09 1:22 pm

'religious' means belief in something that you have no factual basis for, and are unwilling to listen to arguments why your religious belief is not rational.

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