Blind to be cured by EMBRYONIC Stem Cells

neal · 04-19-09 6:29 am

Thanks W! While our scientists have had their hands tied behind their backs because they couldn't rescue embryos from being flushed down the toilet in fertility clinics in order to find cures for blindness and who knows what else, scientists in other countries that don't suffer from Religious Right Lunatic Disease have jumped way past us. Thanks for nothin' American Taliban. It would be interesting to make a list of every person that is on record against embryonic stem cell research and track to see whether they use the the new cures which will be coming from it. Come to think of it, how many anti-abortion activists have their kids immunized? Several major vaccines still use the same cells from babies aborted in Britain in the 60's whose tissue was used to start the vaccine lines. <blockquote>Blind to be cured with stem cells BRITISH scientists have developed the world’s first stem cell therapy to cure the most common cause of blindness. Surgeons predict it will become a routine, one-hour procedure that will be generally available in six or seven years’ time. The treatment involves replacing a layer of degenerated cells with new ones created from embryonic stem cells. It was pioneered by scientists and surgeons from the Institute of Ophthalmology at University College London and Moorfields eye hospital. This week Pfizer, the world’s largest pharmaceutical research company, will announce its financial backing to bring the therapy to patients. The treatment will tackle age-related macular degeneration (AMD), the most common cause of blindness. It affects more than 500,000 Britons and the number is forecast to increase significantly as people live longer. The disease involves the loss of eye cells. Under the new treatment, embryonic stem cells are transformed into replicas of the missing cells. They are then placed on an artificial membrane which is inserted in the back of the retina. Tom Bremridge, chief executive of the Macular Disease Society, said: “This is a huge step forward for patients. We are extremely pleased that the big guns have become involved, because, once this treatment is validated, it will be made available to a huge volume of patients.” Embryonic stem cells have the ability to develop into all types of body tissue. Their use is controversial, however, because it involves the destruction of human embryos. Laboratory trials completed by the British team have demonstrated that stem cells can prevent blindness in rats with a similar disease to AMD. They have also successfully tested elements of the technology in pigs. The team is led by Professor Pete Coffey, director of the London Project to Cure Blindness, working alongside Lyndon da Cruz, a surgeon at Moorfields. Coffey said the treatment would take “less than an hour, so it really could be considered as an outpatient procedure. We are trying to get it out as a common therapy”. He welcomed Pfizer’s agreement to manufacture the membranes, saying: “This is a major development because of the size of the partner. We need a big pharmaceutical company to scale it up. “We have nearly 14m people within Europe with AMD. This will ensure that the therapy gets through to clinical trials in a safe and effective manner.” Professor Peng Khaw, director of the Biomedical Research Centre at Moorfields and the UCL Institute of Ophthalmology, added: “This shows that stem cell therapy is coming of age. It offers great hope for many sufferers around the world who cannot be treated with conventional treatment.” He added: “All my patients say to me is, ‘When will this stem cell treatment be ready? I want it now’.” Pfizer’s role would be crucial in bringing production of the membranes to an industrial level. The team is applying for regulatory approval for trials from the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, the Human Tissue Authority and the gene therapy advisory committee. The clinical trial, due within two years, is expected to be the second in the world to use embryonic stem cells on humans. The first, on patients with spinal cord injuries, will start this year in America.</blockquote> <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article6122757.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=2015164" target=_top>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/ar ticle6122757.ece#cid=OTC-RSS&attr=2015164</a>

bob_2 · 04-19-09 2:08 pm

Note this about Stem Cells and Cancer: <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) -- In just a matter of weeks, Barack Obama may force Americans to spend millions for unproven embryonic stem cell research. Yet, scientists admit they are having significant problems overcoming one of the major hurdles that may prevent the cells from every helping human patients. While adult stem cells have helped patients with a wide range of dozens of diseases and conditions, embryonic stem cells have yet to help one patient and have had problems in animals. One major problem is that they tend to form cancerous cells or tumors after they are injected -- and scientists have yet to stop that from happening. A new article in Nature Reports Stem Cells highlights the work of Mickie Bhatia and colleagues at McMaster University that shows that the embryonic stem cells that look the best may perform the worst. "When it comes to embryonic stem cells, the very qualities researchers use to pick out a robust cell line may in fact be bestowed by precancerous transformations," the article suggests. “Current measurements are not capable of distinguishing the difference between great stem cells and cancer stem cells in vitro,” Bhatia explains. The researchers say the problem is and can't be determined before they transform into specific body tissues through the process called differentiation. As a result, solving the problem of tumors from embryonic stem cell injections may be difficult, if not impossible. "Ultimately it may be difficult or impossible to rule out with certainty that a given culture is totally free of abnormal cells," Martin Pera who studies embryonic stem cells at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, admits in the Nature article. Bioethicist Wesley J. Smith said that, if that is true, embryonic stem cells may never yield cures for patients. "Scientists have been working on this for nearly a decade now on making embryonic stem cells capable of being used directly in therapies," he said. "They have been stymied by three primary problems; the potential for tissue rejection the cells' propensity to form tumors called teratomas, and the problem of some embryonic stem cells appearing to be pre-cancerous making them very risky to inject into a living patient," Smith explained. "With regard to the latter issue, it turns out that the healthiest appearing embryonic stem cells may be the most dangerous," he said. He said this latest news "could mean that the potential cancer threat -- which is in addition to the teratoma tumor issue -- may be very hard to solve." Smith said this is another reason to look to ethical and more effective alternatives like adult stem cells. "Umbilical cord blood stem cells can be tissue typed more readily than bone marrow and so far as I have seen, have no tumor issues," he said. "Adult stem cells do not exhibit tissue rejection (since they are the patient's own cells), tumor formation, or cancer, and are in many early human trials for a variety of ailments." <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2160578/posts" target=_top>http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2160578/p osts</a> Neal, stem cells are the answer to every problem, held up by anti-abortionists. We need to proceed carefully down this "slippery slope".

bob_2 · 04-19-09 3:12 pm

The last sentence should have read: "Neal, stem cells are not the answer to every problem, ..."

neal · 04-19-09 4:10 pm

"Neal, stem cells are not the answer to every problem, ..." Neither I, nor any expert that I have ever read on the subject, have ever claimed that embryonic stem cells are the answer to every problem. In fact, it would be stupid to make that claim. However, its a double standard for religious hypocrites to protest stem cell research using fertility clinic embryos without protesting fertility clinics. They are saying a zygote is more important than a grandmother or mother or daughter. If Bush and the crazy right felt it was necessary to impede embryonic stem cell research they should have also shut down all the IVF clinics. Note my by-line quote from you. Do fetuses have free will? No. That's why I have put the quote up. You said they are not human and I agree.

bob_2 · 04-19-09 9:31 pm

At birth is when our laws recognize them as humans, except in creepy situations like the Peterson murder of wife and child in utero. Then our society is starting to see it as a double homocide, especially when the baby, not having been born washes up separately on the beach, eh?? Both Bushes and wives are not for over turning Roe v. Wade. I am one that doesn't feel it should be overturned either. But there should not be abortion on demand for sex determination, or regular contraception.

neal · 04-19-09 9:36 pm

Still, your definition that free will determines whether human or not, results in fetuses being non-human. Its your statement.

bob_2 · 04-19-09 10:42 pm

I stand by what I said, what's the problem? If they can not choose, they are not human yet, with rights, other than what we as humans bestow on them. I see no problem with that. If we wish to say abortion is totally illegal, we as humans have bestowed that on the fetus. We haven't except in the cases mentioned or other rare situations. Third term abortions are usually frowned on because the mother should have her mind made up by then. Society's general valuation of life in the womb and in the nursing home, are things for us humans to figure out. In the Nursing Home, it may appear they do not have a choice, but if a living will is written while the human is competent, it is the wishes of that human, and usually respected unless it can be documented that the human changed their mind about their living will and made it known to family, friends, doctors or attorneys.

neal · 04-20-09 3:38 pm

We haven't except in the cases mentioned or other rare situations. That is false. I believe Canada has no restrictions whatsoever on any type of abortion during any period of pregnancy. We Americans do have a few restrictions. Most conservative American citizens want to make almost ALL abortions illegal and some crazy right wingers want ALL abortions to be made illegal and are trying to sneak in these "life begins at conception" laws and regulations. Not sure if you have that problem in your country. Society's general valuation of life in the womb and in the nursing home, are things for us humans to figure out. I thought you followed the scribblings of the genocidal maniacs on these kind of questions. Your heroes the hebrews killed pregnant mothers right and left and its even implied that the priests had a special abortion brew which they made women drink. Shouldn't you adhere to that?

bob_2 · 04-20-09 7:10 pm

Neal, do you discuss this way with your business associates about these issues?? I bet they wonder about your sanity!!!! I do.

neal · 04-20-09 7:38 pm

I wasn't looking for an ad hominem response but an answer to why you have decided that a humanistic approach should be taken on the subject of abortion. You claim to be a theist, then go off humanist at the drop of a hat. Be consistent. The Bible has plenty of passages where the life or death of a fetus was involved giving ample opportunity to derive an objective, Biblical answer to this situation. Why do you abandon the Bible on this yet still claim that the Bible is the source of all truth and morals? Speculating about what my associates think of my sanity is a fallacious changing of the subject to divert attention away from your incoherent position.

neal · 04-20-09 7:40 pm

I bet they wonder about your sanity!!!! I do. I am not surprised that a person who is irrational and deluded would question the sanity of rational people.

bob_2 · 04-20-09 8:23 pm

The reason why abortion is such a hot botton issue is guys like you that can't change given differing situations. You need to watch the movie the Cardinal: <a href="http://turnerclassic.moviesunlimited.com/product.asp?sku=D63299" target=_top>http://turnerclassic.moviesunlimited.com/product.a sp?sku=D63299</a> I think you can get it at Blockbuster or Netflex. Help the Cardinal decide to save the junkie mother or the baby trapped in the birth canal. Someone dies, and it's in your hands.

neal · 04-20-09 8:46 pm

The reason why abortion is such a hot botton issue is guys like you that can't change given differing situations. In the case of abortion that's the response of a Humanist. What Biblical morals and laws do you, as a professed christian follower of Jesus, also rationalize? Lying? Cheating on your wife? Stealing? Murder? Greed? Envy? Giving to the poor? Forgiveness? You try to claim your morality comes from your sky god then try to wiggle out of the difficult rules, regulations, and examples that the transcendent deity has supposedly given through its unique son Yeshua, gnostic Paul, and the genocidal maniacs of the OT.

bob_2 · 04-20-09 9:05 pm

TTTHTFAL

neal · 04-20-09 9:47 pm

And you think people would actually want to spend eternity with smartass christians like you? It would be more like an eternal prison sentence in stupidville. *****Please dear sky god, PLEASE throw me in the lake of fire. PLEASE don't make me live with spirits like Bob's.

bob_2 · 04-20-09 10:00 pm

TTTHTFAL, go to the thread and produce an answer....not a question.

neal · 04-20-09 11:27 pm

Neal, do you discuss this way with your business associates about these issues?? I bet they wonder about your sanity!!!! We only have 1 christian at our company out of the 12 of us. The other eleven question HIS sanity. We had a company outing (plus my son) to the Hitchens-D'Souza debate in January. Had almost a whole row! As for the christian- he's a literalist, fundamentalist Lutheran. We were talking 5 years ago about the Torah and I told him I did not believe any Moses wrote it. He was shocked so I asked him how, in circa 1300 BCE 'Moses' told the Israelites when Rosh Hashana started by stating that it was in the 7th month of the Persian Calendar. Seeing how 1300 BCE is 800 years before the Persian Calendar began to be used in palestine it was impossible the he had written it and then it was preserved without change as jews and christians claim. He said he would study it and get back to me with an answer. Well, 5 years later I am still waiting for the answer so he doesn't bring up religion.

bob_2 · 04-21-09 12:52 am

TTTHTFAL until you give me what you promised, an alternate way to heaven, to eternal life. I'm afraid it will be like you and your friend, 5 years from now I'll still be waiting for you to produce.

neal · 04-21-09 6:47 am

Astronauts have been way past heaven. I gave an answer about immortality. Show me the dome and I'll give you directions to God's home on it. As a bonus, I'll give you directions to either Santa's or Cinderella's house. You even get to choose which one you'd like to visit!

bob_2 · 04-21-09 11:51 am

The dome is the words of the time and thought. Not modern science. You want Moses to be talking modern science, you state it with a one track mind. Most scholars of the Bible realize that the authors of the Books of the Bible spoke with words of their culture. You haven't gotten that simple concept, even though scholars have. Who do I choose Neal's way or the scholars of the Bible. Hard decision. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif" border=0>

bob_2 · 04-21-09 11:54 am

Your non-answer, but more questions and negativity, do not give anyone hope for eternal life. Producing "eternal life" through your children is an absurd, non-intellectual answer. Is that your FINAL ANSWER?

john8verse32 · 04-21-09 2:08 pm

the authors of the Books of the Bible spoke with words of their culture. maybe we are finally beginning to see the possibilities that what they "saw" and "heard" , may not always have been scientifically factual? maybe the Hebrews borrowed from the story of Gilgamesh which they read in cuneiform while being held captive in Babylon....and they came up with their ancestor Noah being the hero... similar to their borrowing the river reed-raft trip of a Sumerian General who was glorified by that story just like Moses was a thousand years later. maybe global warming WAS happening way back when, despite Al Gores claim that we humans are causing it...and rising oceans flooded coastal valleys where the ancients barely survived to tell the tale...which became the many legends of floods around the world.... maybe ancient cultures looked up at the night sky, and saw all the stars moving in unison...together since they are so far away... and not realizing it was the round earths rotation which caused it, they thought there was this firmament, this dome over everything...with tiny holes in it for the light of heaven to shine thru... and maybe even windows in heaven, to open and let in the rain.... and the 7 wanderers in the sky...(remember, planeta in Greek means wanderer!!) including the 5 planets we see with the naked eye, plus the sun and moon, after which the 7 days of the week became names...and the Hebrews copied the 7 into their lore about many other things.... they even doubled it for the number of years Jacob had to work for his two wives...then they tripled that (3 x 14) for the genealogy of Christ, despite contemporary writers listing more than 42 in jesus lineage, Mass uses the 3 x 42 to deliberately prove Jesus came at the mathemagically correct time.... 42 also shows up as the number of kids mauled by Elisha's bears... and also as what we take as a 42 x 30 prophecy, for 1260 "days" which we then convert to years... there is sooooo much symbolism going on in the ancient world, that the Hebrews were bound to be included in the many myths and stories...but they did more than accept those myths...they adopted and then ADAPTED them to become part of their family history...the Old Test....

bob_2 · 04-21-09 2:21 pm

How about sources so one can study what you think you are seeing, or are you just winging it [without capitalization]? Where is your positive alternative? Is your alternative to immortality your children?? as Neal suggests. You guys have critiqued my alternative long enough, now lets hear something contributed, positive, an answer, to the discussion from your side.

elaine · 04-21-09 6:45 pm

Bob, the "sources" you consistently request, are based on many years of reading and learning by John, Neal, and I. Just as you learned skills in school, can you give us all the particular sources for everything you have learned in the past twenty years? Asking for "sources" is a clue that you are unfamiliar wit the knowledge we offer and it's demeaning to ask for what you should have already learned if you had read and studied all the sources that we three have during a lifetime of study. Would you ask your college professors to document every statement they make when giving a lecture? If you are unwilling to learn, you are incapable of it.

bob_2 · 04-21-09 8:50 pm

So you want to hide behind your process, your nose in the book perpetually, never giving an answer to life and death questions. What is that the Bible says about people like you: 2Tim 3:7 always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. That about sums up the three of you, don't you think. One question is being asked yet you can't seem to get your mind around it, or if you admit what you believe, you have to admit faith, eh???

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