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Hub, while I obviously do not agree with NCT or Bob’s definition of the Every Day Sabbath, I also cannot agree with your OC, legalistic views about the 4th Commandment.
Hub said: There is nothing in the Bible that says that the New Covenant replaced the Decalogue.
Tom replied: Wrong. Hub, like a typical SDA, you are obsessed with the Moral Law, which is why you can’t understand the difference between the Two Covenants. The NC does indeed replace OC Law. The NC is not the same as the OC, nor is it to be confused with it.
The OC is replaced by the NC.
No one under the NC is under the OC Decalogue. NONE! Which is why Jesus teaches that the 4th Commandment is moot. Christ does not teach that we are to obey the 4th Commandment as the SDA’s teach. They have a wrong view of the Gospel as well as the law and the Sabbath.
There is no battle between the OC Decalogue and the NC Gospel, only the latter is salvific. The Gospel is a paradigm of faith, not of keeping the OC Moral law. It is the OC that features and includes the Decalogue, requiring obedience. Not the NC, which features the “law of Christ.”
While Uriah Smith pretended that the Moral law was not part of the OC, so the SDA’s could promote the OC Sabbath in the NC, he was wrong. The Moral law, given to the Jews, does not stand outside this Old Covenant, it is part of it.
Ellen White condemns your views, just as she did Uriah Smith’s.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
The law referenced in Galatians is both the Ceremonial and Moral law of the Jews. Paul is saying that we are no longer under either. Faith in the Gospel has replaced Judaism and law keeping.
The OC is Judaism, including the Moral Law, which was given to the Jews. After the NC has arrived, there is no need to fall under the laws of the OC, including the Moral law. Thus, Christians are not under OC law as you claim, but only under the teachings of Christ, also known as the law of Christ.
On this point Bob, and NCT, is correct. You, and the SDA’s, are not.
Hub, what you are really teaching is Battle Creek Adventism, before 1888. You are trying to take Adventism back to the days of their gross OC legalism, to a time when they were clueless about the law and the Gospel. Had you been around in 1888, it is clear that you would have sided with Uriah Smith against Ellen White, Waggoner, and Jones.
You are an OC SDA and proud of it. Very sad for anyone to be so theologically blind in the 21st century. Uriah Smith is your hero, even as Ellen White would condemn you.
Hub said: Nor is anything said that Christ's fulfillment of the law replaces our need to keep the law.
Tom replied: Wrong. NC Christians are “no longer under the Decalogue.” This was only a temporary, tutor type law. The SDA’s are OC Christians, they don’t understand the Gospel, much less salvation or the NC doctrine of the Sabbath. This is why they are self-destructing.
Jesus teaches that we are saved by faith, without works, or obedience to the Moral law. Salvation is not based, or sustained, by law keeping, also known as Sanctification. This is Roman Catholic theology, which is exactly what AT Jones accused Smith of believing. Jones was correct.
Here is a thread that deals with these doctrinal issues. It contains some posts by you that defends legalism and proves that you do not understand the Gospel, nor are you are Protestant. So at least you are consistent, consistently wrong, that is.
Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122
Hub said: It is clear that Christ did not sin, He kept the Ten Commandments.
Tom said: First, there is no debate that Christ sinned. That is not the question.
Second, Christ did not keep the 10 Commandments, as you claim. This is just SDA propaganda that you assume is true. But it is not. The Gospel Story makes it clear that Christ refused to obey the 4th Commandment, even as he taught others to break this law by working on the Sabbath. This is why he was sent to the cross. How could you miss this?
John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Few people understand that not only did Jesus “break” the 4th Commandment, he claimed that God, his Father, had shown him this new, active view of the 7th day Sabbath. Thus Jesus taught that God too is a Sabbath breaker, which infuriated the Jews.
Pay attention: Jesus not only refused to obey the 4th Commandment, he taught others to also work on the 7th day, claiming they would not be guilty of sin.
So what you think is so clear, is not. You are in the dark about the law and the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath. Silly SDA’s, they claimed to be the experts about the Sabbath, but they have embraced the wrong doctrine. Which is why they must repent and only embrace the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ.
Hub said: He was not accused of breaking them in His trial! He declared that even Satan "hath nothing in Me." Meaning that Satan, who has an accurate record of all sins, had none that he could hold against Christ.
Tom said: Stop the selective reading of the Gospels to support your false views. One does not have to get very far into the Gospel Story to see that Jesus teaches a very different view of the Sabbath.
Mark 3:1 He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered.
Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
From the start of his ministry, Jesus broke the Sabbath in a public manner for all to see. Rome did not care about the Sabbath or Jewish laws, nor was Jesus charged as a Sabbath breaker by Rome.
So the Gospel Story cannot be defined by what the Romans did or did not do. You are wrong to focus on the trial of Christ to understand the teachings of Christ about the Law or the Sabbath.
Hub said: The apostle John, who probably gives the clearest picture of the character of Christ. He had a lot to say about sin in his later books; 1 John 1:6-10; 2:1, 3; 3:4, 6, 7, 9.
Tom said: The clearest picture of Christ is to be found in the four Gospels. John’s Gospel contains numerous Sabbath debates and thus no one should be confused about what Jesus teaches about Eternal Life or the 7th day Sabbath. How could you miss this?
Hub said: Jesus had some very specific things to say about keeping the law.
Tom replied: Jesus has much to say about Eternal Life as well as law. Too bad the SDA’s are clueless about both. Eternal Life is not given to anyone because they obeyed the law, especially the 4th Commandment, which Christ teaches is NOT to be obeyed. So you are very confused.
Hub said: A rote keeping of the law is not pleasing to God.
Tom said: Who said otherwise? But guess what? NO ONE can please God by his or her law keeping, love, or sanctification, by rote or from the heart. The fact you don’t know this makes you a flaming legalist. Shame on you!
Hub said: The law must be kept (obeyed) from the heart. It is this rote keeping of the law that is "legalism."
Tom said: Wrong. Keeping the law from the heart is the definition of love. But this is not salvific. No one is saved because of his or her love or sanctification. Your views are not Protestant, nor do they fit with Ellen White and the 1888 Gospel Reformers.
Rom. 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph. 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
No wonder the SDA’s have lost millions and millions of members. These confused Gentiles are OC fools, who have no proper understanding of the Gospel or church history. They sound very much like the Judaizers, minus the call for ritual circumcision. They teach that the 4th Commandment must be obeyed for salvation, which is wrong, wrong, wrong. It is not to be obeyed at all, much less for salvation.
Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
It was those who proposed circumcision in the church that also wanted to enforce OC Sabbath keeping. The SDA’s have a very wrong view of the Gospel, Law, and the Sabbath, for which they must repent.
Hub said: Grace and the New Covenant are given to empower the Christian to keep the law.
Tom said: Wrong. You speak like the pre-1888 SDA’s of Battle Creek. This is exactly what they taught. Jesus gives us power to obey the law for salvation. This is not Protestant theology. It is gross legalism. It is a false Gospel. Shame on you!
Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom. 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom. 9:31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
Rom. 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Hub said: This grace is expounded in Exodus 20:2, where it is by the power of God in their deliverance from Egypt that He would fulfill the promises of the Decalogue in their lives. The same promise of grace is given with the Sinai covenant in Exodus 19:4.
Tom said: So you think the Gospel can be found in the Torah? Really?
Hub, you are a blind fool. There is no other way to say it. After all these years, you have regressed back to your cultic, legalistic SDA roots. You have learned nothing over the years. At this point, you will go to your grave a lost man, like Uriah Smith, unless you repent and embrace the genuine Gospel.
I suggest that you stop trying to defend OC Adventism and try harder to understand the NC Gospel of Christ as presented by Adventist Reform. This is your only hope.
Hub said: Just a personal note: To deny the Law of God and the Sabbath is to leave one without a cover in the day of judgment. As you must know, we are entering the "time of trouble NOW." There is not much time left to get ready for His Coming.
Tom said: While I agree the end of the world is closer then ever, any that think they must obey the 4th Commandment, or any other Law, to pass the Judgment, has fallen from grace. Law keeping, in either Covenant, will not save anyone. Any that think this way are as lost as were those in the apostolic church that embraced ritual circumcision and OC Sabbath keeping.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
OC Adventism is a curse to all that embrace it. It is poison. If you don’t repent and stop embracing this blasphemy, you will forfeit Eternal Life. Is this really what you want to do at the end of your life?
OC Adventism is self-destructing for cause. The only hope for the Advent Movement is to transition to the NC. This will entail updating every doctrine to fit with the Gospel, including eschatology and the Sabbath, and removing those, like the IJ and tithe, which are false and anti-Christ.
I hope this helps, but I fear you are too old to change. I know many SDA’s of your age group, and many have lost the ability to reason or understand the Gospel. Their brains have been ruined by so many years of cultic Adventism. Sad.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism
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Hubb, I do not agree with Tom's position, although at least I have gotten him to "Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism". The Decalogue was fulfilled by Christ in His flesh, Luke 24:44. Also, Col 2:16-17, and Eph 2: 14-18. However, there is nothing wrong about worshiping on Saturday. After all we are instructed:
Heb 10: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
On the point Tom raises about Jesus not keeping the Decalogue, I disagree.
Galatians 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Which law was He born under, the OC/OT Law, the Decalogue. In order to be our Savior He had to keep the law he was under perfectly. If this was not important, He could have allowed the Devil to tempt Him on other points. Jesus disagreement with the Pharisees about the Sabbath had to do with their man made laws since the desert economy to one in an urban or suburban life. Jesus clarified the principle of the OC 4th Commandment for the Jews. BUT, neither He nor the Apostles ever indicated a mandated Sabbath for the New Covenant. Maybe an assembly day, but not the legalistic day that risked separation from the Jewish camp in the desert or excommunication from the urban/suburban Jewish lifestyle. Col 2 :16-17 states it clearly enough.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-02-14 7:26 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Hubb, I do not agree with Tom's position, although at least I have gotten him to "Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism".
Tom said: Bob, you have never been able to defend NCT, much less show that Adventist Reform, aka NCA, is wrong. Nor have you given me any worthwhile insight about the Gospel, which you do not understand.
Bob 2 said: The Decalogue was fulfilled by Christ in His flesh, Luke 24:44. Also, Col 2:16-17, and Eph 2: 14-18.
Tom said: This makes no sense, nor does the NT teach any such thing. One can fulfill prophecies, but not the Decalogue. Which is why there is no such doctrine as Jesus “fulfilling” the Sabbath or the Moral Law.
While Jesus is the Lamb of God, and thus he is the fulfillment of the sacrificial system, this is a reference to the Ceremonial law. Jesus is not the Moral Law, nor did he fulfill it. In fact, he teaches that the 4th Commandment is not to be obeyed, and he refused to do it. Proving that he is greater than the Moral law.
Bob 2 said: However, there is nothing wrong about worshiping on Saturday. After all we are instructed: Heb 10: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Tom said: Wrong. It is very wrong for any Christian to try and obey the 4th Commandment, as the SDA’s teach. Jesus teaches an active, working view of the 7th day Sabbath, not one that creates guilt and focuses on law keeping. It was the enemies of Christ, meaning the Jews, that embraced the 4th Commandment with both hands. Not Christ. He ABOLISHED the OC Sabbath, making the 4th Commandment moot.
While the 7th day is the correct day for the church to meet, those that think it sinful to work on this day have fallen from grace. They are Judaizers that do not understand Christ or his Gospel, much less his doctrine of the NC Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: On the point Tom raises about Jesus not keeping the Decalogue, I disagree.
Tom said: It is too late too change the Gospel Story. Jesus was sent to the cross for Sabbath breaking, not Sabbath keeping. Stop trying to change the facts to fit your false doctrine.
Bob 2 quoted: Galatians 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Tom replied: While Jesus was born a Jew, under the laws of Judaism, that does not mean he obeyed all their laws. We know he did not. Nor does the Gospel Record say otherwise. For example, Jesus refused to obey the 4th Commandment. Such a fact cannot be denied or spun away with double-talk.
Bob 2 asked: Which law was He born under, the OC/OT Law, the Decalogue.
Tom said: So what? Legions of Jews were born under the OC/ OT law and they failed to follow all the rules. John the Baptist seems a good case in point, and so too Moses, Samson, and David, - all types of Christ.
It does not follow that because one is born a Jew, that they obeyed all the laws. The opposite would be more normal.
Bob 2 said: In order to be our Savior He had to keep the law he was under perfectly.
Tom said: Where did you get this idea that Christ had to obey the 4th Commandment, or he could not be our savior? Answer: From the legalistic SDA’s. They have poisoned your mind with this double-talk.
Jesus refused to obey the 4th Commandment. To deny this is to deny the Gospel Story. It was the Jews that said Christ must obey the law or he was a fraud. Jesus never agreed with this position, which was used against him by his enemies.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
Bob 2 said: If this was not important, He could have allowed the Devil to tempt Him on other points.
Tom said: Stop the double-talk. This is not about the devil, but about what Christ teaches about the NC Sabbath. Stop the diversions.
Bob 2 said: Jesus disagreement with the Pharisees about the Sabbath had to do with their man made laws since the desert economy to one in an urban or suburban life.
Tom said: It was God that gave the 4th Commandment to Moses. Thus the law against working on the Sabbath, even to light a fire, was forbidden and considered very sinful BY GOD. This was God’s law, not mans. So you need to stop with these lame excuses that make no sense. Jesus broke the 4th Commandment on a regular and public basis for all to see. Only a blind person could miss this part of the Gospel Story.
Bob 2 said: Jesus clarified the principle of the OC 4th Commandment for the Jews.
Tom said: Wrong! Jesus abolished the OC Sabbath with its’ 4th Commandment that prohibited work on the 7th day. More than that, he created and taught a NC, Gospel Sabbath that was based on the Priesthood of all Believers, where freedom from the law was showcased every 7th day for all to see.
Bob 2 said: BUT, neither He nor the Apostles ever indicated a mandated Sabbath for the New Covenant.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus teaches that his view of the 7th day Sabbath is for all mankind, just like the Gospel. He also claims that God his Father taught him this new doctrine, making the point that the genuine Christ is the one with the active, guilt free Sabbath, and that we should follow him like sheep follow the Good Shepherd.
Jesus did not call himself the Lord of the Sabbath for no reason. He was doing this to make it clear that he has the authority to teach a new doctrine of the Sabbath, and that those who refuse to embrace it, like most of the Jews, are blind and unsaved.
Bob 2 said: Maybe an assembly day, but not the legalistic day that risked separation from the Jewish camp in the desert or excommunication from the urban/suburban Jewish lifestyle. Col 2 :16-17 states it clearly enough.
Tom said: Stop the double-talk. What is this “maybe” about the Sabbath? So you think Jesus teaches a “maybe” doctrine of the Sabbath, and a “maybe” doctrine about Eternal Life as well? Maybe he is correct and maybe not? Who knows? Such reasoning is absurd and blasphemous.
There is no doubt that Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, teaches a NC doctrine of the Sabbath in all four Gospels. Such a fact is beyond rational dispute. Those who pretend Jesus failed to articulate a Sabbath for the church are clueless about the Gospel Story. Not only are they wrong, they are also lost, because they do not know how to recognize the Good Shepherd and thus they are following frauds to perdition. Stupid lambs, out witted by wolves.
Traditional Adventism is blasphemous heresy, with one false doctrine after another. NCT is no improvement. It too is based on myth, error, and false hermeneutics. There is only one Gospel and one NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, and few there be that find it.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Bob and Hub, I suggest that you both stop the insanity and repent before it’s too late. It may already be.
It is time for Adventist Reform. It is time for the Gospel to come out of the shadows and into the bright light of the NC.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Bob and Tom,
You both throw around the terms Old Covenant and New Covenant, but you do not bother to describe either of them. Until you know exactly what these terms mean, your discussions are fruitless.
God offered to Israel the Abrahamic Covenant in Exodus 19:4-6. Verse 4 was an invitation to have faith in the God who delivered them from the Egyptians. Through faith in the grace of God and His power, they would be made a "peculiar treasure, ... a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." He asked them to "obey my voice ... and keep my covenant." Here He is referring to the Ten Commandment law, which is also termed "the covenant."
When Moses presented this covenant to the elders, they answered, "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do." Nothing was said about belief, faith, grace, nor did they fall on their face as did Abraham. They were going to do what God asked in their own strength. They did not refer to the promise of grace in Exodus 19:4. They offered to covenant with God as equals!
In Exodus 23:20-23 God tried to tell them what they were trying to do. In verse 21, they were told to "provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him." In other words, in the promises of the people, there was no provision for forgiveness of sins!
The Ratification ceremony is described in Exodus 24:3-11. God took them seriously, and ratified this covenant with the blood of animals. Twice during this ceremony the people again said, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." This was the "Historical Old Covenant." It's identifying mark is the attempt for people to try to save themselves by their own efforts. Moses went up into the mountain with Joshua, and after 46 days, God warned them to quickly return to camp, as the people had corrupted themselves. Moses found the people involved in a rebellious, heathen festival. They had broken their covenant in just 46 days.
The Experiential Old Covenant returned as the people forgot the Messiah to whom the sacrifices pointed. They developed a heathen concept of salvation and grace through the blood of animals. This view was deeply rooted by the time that Jesus came to live on earth. (See Acts 15, 2 Cor. 3, Galatians 3,4, Hebrews 8-10). To this day, the Jews deny that Jesus sacrifice was effective or necessary.
In contrast, the New Covenant is based on the Everlasting Covenant, whereby we are saved by what Jesus does FOR us. We are saved by faith in His sacrifice for us, and the grace He has provided for us through His sacrifice. If we consent (God gave mankind "free will" and He will not override our free will. Thus consent is necessary) we can open the way for the Holy Spirit to change our lives.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubb: in Ex 19:3-6 nothing is asked of the Israelites to have faith, only to obey. Where are you picking up that point that faith was something discussed with them?
Ex 19:3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[a] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”
Tom, why were these flawless sacrifices required? Exod. 12:5, Lev. 3:1, 4:3 Because Jesus had to be perfect in His life, and keeping of the law.
Look in the new testament what was required of Jesus as our Saviour: Heb.4:15; 7:26; 9:14; 1 Pet. 1:18, 19
Also, Tom, look at John 15:10
John 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
Tom, you essentially call our Savior a breaker of God's commands. If so, he could not be the blemishless sacrifice. He was under the Old Covenant Law, Mosaic Law. The New Covenant Law, Christ's Law was not in force until He died on the cross. So He had to have kept the 4th and all commandments perfectly. Keeping the intent of the law, not just the letter of the law was accomplished here by Christ.
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Hubb, the two Covenants are:
1st, Old, Mosaic Covenant - This is the Covenant with the Israelites that was broken by their unbelief. It was the Ten Commandments and all the other 613 rules given to them. It all pointed to Christ, the Saviour of mankind. But in it's failure, the New Covenant was put in place, a Covenant that could not be broken but only rejected by mankind individually.
2nd, New Covenant - This is also known as the Kingdom of God. Only the gift of Jesus stainless life and death could offer the basis of the New Covenant, the Cornerstone.Matt 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11. All shadows of the Old Covenant would be fulfilled in the New Covenant. Luke 24:44: Col 2:16-17. Christ's Law was the standard of behavior, based on God's Law that had ruled in Heaven. 1 Cor 9:19- 23 The Universe was created before the Earth and had God's Law as it's standard of behavior. A gift of eternal life is offered to all who accept Christ's sacrifice for their sin and permit the Holy Spirit to empower their lives to bear the fruit of good deeds "prepared by God for them". John 3:16 ; Ephesians 2:8-10
Because salvation was to come of the Jews, the Abrahamic Promise had to be part of the New Covenant to permit non-Jewish mankind to be adopted to sonship in this New Covenant, Salvation, and Eternal Life. Romans 8:15, 23; Romans 9:4; Gal 4:5; Eph 1:5.
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Hub you need to address the points under discussion, not invent reasons why you will not reply.
Here are some questions for you to answer:
1. What is the law in Galatians? Is it only the Ceremonial law or is it also the Moral law?
2. Do you think Christians are “under” the Moral law in the NC? Is law keeping salvific in the NC?
3. What do you think the SDA’s were debating in 1888?
Here are the answers:
1. Law in Galatians is both Ceremonial and Moral. A point that stunned the Battle Creek SDA’s, most of which refused to believe this fact.
2. Christians are not under the moral law in the NC. They are only saved by Faith in Christ, not the law. Nor does their sanctification keep them saved.
Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Rom. 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
3. The SDA’s were debating the Law in Galatians and the definition of the Two Covenants. The leaders never understood this debate correctly, nor do they today. Ellen White supported the correct view, which is why she was exiled and the 1888 debates hidden from the church.
Hub said: Bob and Tom, You both throw around the terms Old Covenant and New Covenant, but you do not bother to describe either of them. Until you know exactly what these terms mean, your discussions are fruitless.
Tom replied: While I will not speak for Bob, it is very easy to define both the OC and the NC. Moreover, most all Gospel discussion with OC SDA’s is “fruitless.” They have become so blind to the Gospel that they are almost beyond help. Hub, you are a good case in point.
The OC = Judaism. Period. This is the most simple and correct definition of the OC, which includes both the Ceremonial and Moral laws given to the Jews. The OT represents the sacred writings of the OC, starting with Moses and the Torah. The Gospel is not found in the OT. So stop looking in the wrong place.
The NC = Christianity. It starts with the Gospel teachings of Christ in the four Gospels. Faith in Christ is featured over law keeping for salvation. The NT = the sacred writings of the church.
Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Hub said: God offered to Israel the Abrahamic Covenant in Exodus 19:4-6. Verse 4 was an invitation to have faith in the God who delivered them from the Egyptians. Through faith in the grace of God and His power, they would be made a "peculiar treasure, ... a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation."
Tom said: Stop the diversions and double-talk. The NT has much to say about Abraham, specifically in the book of Galatians. What does the NT teach about Abraham, the law, and the Two Covenants? See Galatians for the answer.
Hub said: He asked them to "obey my voice ... and keep my covenant." Here He is referring to the Ten Commandment law, which is also termed "the covenant."
Tom said: The 10 C’s are part of the OC. Period. Stop paying any attention to Uriah Smith. That man was an uneducated fool. He is the source for all that went wrong with the SDA Empire in Battle Creek.
Hub said: When Moses presented this covenant to the elders, they answered, "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do." Nothing was said about belief, faith, grace, nor did they fall on their face as did Abraham.
Tom said: There had to be faith in God and faith in his rules and ceremonies from the start. So faith was involved, even as they were saved by their faith and participation in the sacrificial system, which was as close to the Gospel as it gets in the OC.
Moreover, this idea that the Jews at Horeb answered incorrectly is myth. God was pleased with what they said. He did not want them to stand up to God, and thus he scared them almost to death. That was the point of all the fire and lightening.
However, God said he would send them a Jewish prophet, who would speak the Gospel to them and they should listen because he not coming with fire and fury. Too bad so few pay any attention to Jesus today. Some, like the SDA’s are still trying to follow Moses.
Deut. 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.
Deut. 18:16 “This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’
Deut. 18:17 “The LORD said to me, ‘They have spoken well.
Deut. 18:18 ‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Deut. 18:19 ‘It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
Deut. 18:20 ‘But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’
Hub said: They were going to do what God asked in their own strength. They did not refer to the promise of grace in Exodus 19:4. They offered to covenant with God as equals!
Tom said: Stop the double-talk and false spin. This SDA view about trying to obey the Moral law in your own strength versus getting power from God is absurd nonsense. This false Gospel is what they all said in Battle Creek, which led them to try and get the necessary “strength” from God to obey the Law. This is legalism.
The backlash to such legalism was the 1888 debates, which focused on Galatians and the definition of the Two Covenants.
The Battle Creek SDA’s self-destructed because of this false Gospel and so too did the Takoma Park Adventists. You are on the wrong side of the Gospel and church history.
Hub said: In Exodus 23:20-23 God tried to tell them what they were trying to do. In verse 21, they were told to "provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him." In other words, in the promises of the people, there was no provision for forgiveness of sins!
Tom said: You poor man. What is the matter with you? It was the sacrificial system that provided for the forgiveness of sins. THIS was the provision to deal with sin.
Hub said: The Ratification ceremony is described in Exodus 24:3-11. God took them seriously, and ratified this covenant with the blood of animals. Twice during this ceremony the people again said, "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient." This was the "Historical Old Covenant."
Tom said: You need to get your head out of the OC and into the NC. No one is going to understand the Gospel today by reading the OT. The SDA’s are OC Christians and this is why they are so confused and wrong. Go to the NT to learn the Gospel, not to the Torah.
I repeat. God was pleased with their response at Horeb. The fact you are not, is too bad. Stop trying to manipulate the Bible to support your false, SDA views of the Gospel.
Deut. 18:17 “The LORD said to me, ‘They have spoken well.
Hub said: It's identifying mark is the attempt for people to try to save themselves by their own efforts.
Tom said: Absurd. These people were uneducated slaves. They knew nothing. The outcome could not have been any different. But regardless, God was PLEASED with their response. Read the text over and over until you understand.
Hub said: Moses went up into the mountain with Joshua, and after 46 days, God warned them to quickly return to camp, as the people had corrupted themselves. Moses found the people involved in a rebellious, heathen festival. They had broken their covenant in just 46 days.
Tom said: So what? They were slaves. This was to be expected. How does this in any way explain the Gospel of Christ? Why are you trying to understand the Gospel from the errors and sins of the Jews? Why not pay attention to the point that Christ would come and instruct all about the Gospel? Why not listen to Christ and his apostles?
Those who want to understand the Gospel must go to Christ in the Gospels, not to Moses in the Torah. This is the point of the Horeb story. Not this nonsense about getting strength from God to obey the law to please God. Absurd.
Hub said: The Experiential Old Covenant returned as the people forgot the Messiah to whom the sacrifices pointed. They developed a heathen concept of salvation and grace through the blood of animals.
Tom said: The OC was not an experiment. It was the context for the Gospel, designed to be temporary, replaced by the NC when time was right.
Hub said: This view was deeply rooted by the time that Jesus came to live on earth. (See Acts 15, 2 Cor. 3, Galatians 3,4, Hebrews 8-10). To this day, the Jews deny that Jesus sacrifice was effective or necessary.
Tom said: Most people today deny Jesus and the Gospel. The SDA’s stand at the front of the line of such heretics. They have no idea how to define the Gospel, much less understand the OC or the NC.
Hub said: In contrast, the New Covenant is based on the Everlasting Covenant, whereby we are saved by what Jesus does FOR us. We are saved by faith in His sacrifice for us, and the grace He has provided for us through His sacrifice. If we consent (God gave mankind "free will" and He will not override our free will. Thus consent is necessary) we can open the way for the Holy Spirit to change our lives.
Tom said: We are not saved because Jesus helps us obey the law. In fact, he does not even teach that we are to follow the 4th Commandment. Law keeping, with or without our own strength, is not part of Gospel salvation.
The SDA’s have misunderstood and rejected the Gospel of Christ over and over. This is their problem and this is why they have self-destructed in 1888 and again in 1980, and even today. Unless they repent, they are doomed, and so too any that follow their false Gospel.
Hub, you are a long time Jew, err, I mean, OC SDA. There is no salvation for any that are so foolish as to ignore the past Gospel debates, thinking that Jesus gives us the power to obey the law. This is not the Protestant Gospel, but SDA legalism. Law keeping, much less paying tithe and trying to follow the OC Sabbath law of the 4th Commandment, saves no one. If you cannot see this, and you obviously can’t, then you are doomed. Your Christ is only Moses in disguise. Sad.
Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph. 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2Tim. 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
2Tim. 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Three points that I think Tom does not make well:
1. Why did Christ wither the fig tree?
2. What is Christ's Law?
3. When did the New Covenant begin?
Response by bob_2 to #1: Jesus used the fig tree to demonstrate what is expected of the Christian when the Holy Spirit is poured out in the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit will empower the Christian to do the good deeds prepared by God for him."
Eph 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Response by bob_2 to #2 : The whole discussion of law and grace causes most Protestant Churches to deny the power of God/Holy Spirit:
2 Tim 3:5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
Christ's Law is what Paul says He is under, which he also calls God's Law in:
1 Cor 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
This settles the Sabbath issue and some other debates about good deeds. All Jesus directives for His Kingdom and those of the Apostles teaching are included in Christ's Law.
bob-2 response to #3: The New Covenant could not have begun before Christ's death. It was not untill the last supper that he said:
1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
And notice this text where Jesus tells the disciples/apostles and others present:
Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
Until the Holy Spirit was poured out on them, they did not have the power to do what would be done in the New Covenant.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-04-14 5:00 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Three points that I think Tom does not make well:
1. Why did Christ wither the fig tree?
Tom said: Jesus condemned and cursed the OC Jews for not believing the Gospel and refusing the NC, including his active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
Listen to the words of Jesus, they have a 21st century application for us today.
Luke 13:5 “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”
What Jesus teaches to the Jews, he teaches to all. Thus the Advent Movement is on probation, given a little more time to repent. Otherwise, they are just wasting time and resources. They too will be cursed and cut down.
Luke 13:6 And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7 “And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’
Luke 13:8 “And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”
Note the context and the connection with the NC Sabbath. The very next verse moves into the Sabbath debate, which the religious leaders refused to consider, much less believe and embrace. But Jesus “humiliates” his enemies as the “crowd rejoices” over his remarkable Sabbath exploits and views.
Luke 13:10 And He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.
Luke 13:11 And there was a woman who for eighteen years had had a sickness caused by a spirit; and she was bent double, and could not straighten up at all.
Luke 13:12 When Jesus saw her, He called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your sickness.”
Luke 13:13 And He laid His hands on her; and immediately she was made erect again and began glorifying God.
Luke 13:14 But the synagogue official, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, began saying to the crowd in response, “There are six days in which work should be done; so come during them and get healed, and not on the Sabbath day.”
Luke 13:15 But the Lord answered him and said, “You hypocrites, does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead him away to water him?
Luke 13:16 “And this woman, a daughter of Abraham as she is, whom Satan has bound for eighteen long years, should she not have been released from this bond on the Sabbath day?”
Luke 13:17 As He said this, all His opponents were being humiliated; and the entire crowd was rejoicing over all the glorious things being done by Him.
Had the Jewish leaders embraced the NC, including Jesus active and reformed 7th day Sabbath, they would have produced much fruit. But they would not let go of the OC and their obsession with the Law, which they never obeyed very well anyway. The SDA’s have followed in the cursed footsteps of the Jews. Unless they repent of their OC ways and embrace the NC with both hands, including an active view of the 7th day, they are as doomed as were the 1st century Jews.
Listen to Ellen White speak about this in the context of 1888, and the failed debate about the Two Covenants.
"The character and prospects of the people of God are similar to those of the Jews, who could not enter in because of unbelief. Self-sufficiency, self-importance, and spiritual pride separated them from God, and He hid His face from them. . . .
"The Jews despised the good that was proffered them in the time of Christ, and after the long forbearance of God, the things that were for their peace were hidden from their eyes—that which, if received, would have been to them their greatest blessing became their stumbling block. Thus it is today among us. . . .
"The light of truth is shining upon us as clearly as it shone upon the Jewish people, but the hearts of men are as hard and unimpressible as in the days of Christ, because they know not what they oppose.
Many who claim to be standing in the light are in darkness, and know it not. They have so enshroud themselves in unbelief that they call darkness light, and light darkness. They are ignorant of that which they condemn and oppose. But their ignorance is not such as God will excuse, for He has given them light, and they reject it. They have before them the example of the past, but they will not be warned, and unbelief is enclosing them in impenetrable darkness. They refuse to accept the testimonies they ought to believe, and are ready to accept tidbits of gossip and testimonies of men, showing their credulousness and readiness to believe that which they want to believe." 11MR 286-287.
I repeat: if the Adventist Community does not soon repent of their false views of the Law, Sabbath, and Judgment, they too will be cursed. It looks like this has already happened, which means things will only get worse for this rebellious group that was once focused on finding truth and promoting the Gospel Sabbath to the last church. Sad.
2. What is Christ's Law?
Tom said: The teachings, sayings, and commandments of Christ as contained in the Gospels = the law of Christ. This includes what he teaches about his reformed and active 7th day Sabbath, including the fact that his NC Sabbath is made for all mankind.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 7:23 “Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
John 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Those who reject what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, are rejecting Christ. Period.
3. When did the New Covenant begin?
The birth of Christ marks the beginning of the NC. The ministry of Jesus is the public proclamation of the NC Gospel. Jesus death on the cross closed his earthly ministry and inaugurated the NC.
What Jesus teaches in the Gospels, about salvation, the law, and the Sabbath, as well as eschatology and all else, is what the church must understand and embrace today.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
Last edited by tom_norris (01-06-14 12:50 pm)
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Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant. He is now mediating for His people in the heavenly sanctuary. What is He mediating?. He is mediating the blood He shed on Calvary for our sins.
Hebrews 9-10 makes it clear that the blood of bulls and goats were ineffective. Hebrews 9:15 tells us that it is only by the sacrifice of Jesus that sins are forgiven -- in the Old Testament as well as in the New.
The New covenant was to "put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts." The "Law" here referenced is the Ten Commandment law. Jesus even called it "the covenant" on several occasions.
When God confronted Adam, Eve, and the serpent in Eden, He included a very significant action: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;" (Genesis 3:15).
That word "put" is from two different Hebrew words, but have essentially the same meaning. In each case, God took the initiative, and "put" something into the hearts and minds of His people. In one case it was an "enmity" against evil, in the second it was His law. You don't need a PhD to understand that it was one and the same thing. The bottom line is that God has always worked through the "New Covenant." He has always changed the lives of men through the supernatural power of His grace. He gave to Adam and Eve the "New" covenant. That is when it began!
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubb you will confuse the readers of the Bible seeking for truth if you do not use the same language. How could Adam receive a New Covenant when he had received no other covenant. The Old Covenant was to the Israelites, the New through the Jews to all men, Abraham's Promise from God he received by faith allowing non Jewish people to partake of the salvation. The word law is used in 1 Cor 9:19-23 so many times that one may not need a PhD to figure what is the meaning of each law, but he certainly needs some discernment.
What did Christ come to earth to do?
Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
When something is fulfilled, it is completed. Why was the Holy Spirit now needed for the Apostles? To lead them into all truth. Didn't they already have it? Why did Jesus have to open their minds to something they already knew, how the Ten Commandments fit into the Plan of Salvation.
John 16: 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Hubb, a new message or a rehash of the Old Covenant. Not so simple as you make it to be.
1 Cor 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
A mystery, Hubb? I thought it was simple to all us non-PhD types?? What was the mystery, an old revelation or a new revelation????
Last edited by bob_2 (01-09-14 9:28 am)
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Hub, why did you ignore the three specific questions put to you? Are you fearful of answering and letting everyone know that you are really a flaming legalist, like Uriah Smith? That you stand against Ellen White, Luther, and all Protestants?
1. What is the law in Galatians? Is it only the Ceremonial law or is it also the Moral law?
2. Do you think Christians are “under” the Moral law in the NC? Is law keeping salvific in the NC?
3. What do you think the SDA’s were debating in 1888?
The first question alone would flush you out as a flaming Battle Creek legalistic, which is what you are. Which is why you ignored it. But this is what the SDA’s do. They just close their eyes to whatever they don’t like, pretending they are correct about everything. Such disgusting behavior violates the NT on many levels. This is the theological definition of being “blind.”
Hub, it is clear to me that you have no intention of honestly dealing with the issues or the facts. I don’t think you can, even if you wanted to. Like the OC Jews, you are in too deep, unable to admit any errors, much less repent. You are not open to correction or doctrinal education, much less to understanding the Bible correctly. You are only a blind apologist for Traditional, OC Adventism. How very sad.
However, this is your right to reject the fundamentals of the Protestant Faith and misunderstand Adventism as well. You are not alone. Many SDA’s have gone to their grave without the Gospel, so you will not be alone. There will be plenty of your kind condemned at the Judgment.
It is your life, which is almost over, and your choice. Too bad you have made the wrong one. No Eternal Life for you my friend. Your false view of the Law and the Gospel will be your undoing at the Judgment Day of the 2nd Coming. Not at the IJ, because there is no such fiction.
Don’t ever say you were not warned, or that no one tried to help you.
Hub said: The New covenant was to "put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts." The "Law" here referenced is the Ten Commandment law. Jesus even called it "the covenant" on several occasions.
Tom said: Those who selectively quote what they want to hear in the Bible, ignoring mountains of evidence that refutes their views, are blind to Gospel Truth. Obeying the Moral law saves no one, as the cultic SDA’s have indoctrinated you to think. Nor do they have the correct Sabbath doctrine, even though they claim to be the experts on this subject.
Hub said: When God confronted Adam, Eve, and the serpent in Eden, He included a very significant action: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed;" (Genesis 3:15).
Tom said: Stop the double-talk and diversions. The book of Genesis is not the proper source to understand the law or the Gospel, or the NC Sabbath of Christ. So why are you trying to run from the issues? Why are you babbling on about things in the Torah? What is the matter with you?
Hub said: That word "put" is from two different Hebrew words, but have essentially the same meaning. In each case, God took the initiative, and "put" something into the hearts and minds of His people. In one case it was an "enmity" against evil, in the second it was His law.
Tom replied: Stop with the silly nonsense. Like a typical SDA, you are trying to find linguistic tricks to support your false views. This is how they support the IJ, and tithe, and other errors, - with false word games. Enough of these silly stunts. You are way off point. You need to get out of the OT and back into the NT to understand the Gospel.
But of course neither you, or the SDA’s that you defend, are looking for Gospel truth, nor do either of you know how to read or understand the NT. Thus you both feel better running in circles in the OT, like fools, playing word games. Pathetic.
Hub said: You don't need a PhD to understand that it was one and the same thing.
Tom said: Hub, are you senile or just a cultic fool? How much education does it take for a person to understand that the Gospel is to be defined and understood by the NT, not the OT?
The Torah is not a safe or proper place to learn the Gospel or understand the Two Covenants; and everyone should know this. What is the matter with you? A child should know this fact.
The cultic, OC minded SDA’s have brainwashed you. All you know is what you have been indoctrinated to believe. Pitiful.
Hub said: The bottom line is that God has always worked through the "New Covenant." He has always changed the lives of men through the supernatural power of His grace. He gave to Adam and Eve the "New" covenant. That is when it began!
Tom replied: So the Gospel began in Genesis? Wow! I think that is the most bizarre excuse yet to embrace the law and reject the NC teachings of Christ. I really don’t want to waste my time with someone so twisted and committed to error. You are a lost case.
The bottom line is that you are so full of double-talk and error that you don’t know what you are saying, much less how to define the Two Covenants or the Gospel. God has NOT always worked through the NC; he invented the OC and worked through it for many thousands of years. How can you deny such a historical and theological fact? What is the matter with you? Thus the SDA’s see no difference between Moses and Christ. They are the same person, promoting obedience to the Moral law for salvation.
Wow! Who do you think you are to be making such false pronouncements in the name of God and his Gospel? Who are you to change the Gospel Story and re-write the history of the Jews, changing Christian theology in the process?
You and the SDA’s are really full of yourselves aren’t you? Just make up whatever you want, spinning the Bible this way and that, all to support a chain of false doctrine that is worthless and futile.
Hub, if anyone ever wondered how the OC Jews could get things so wrong as to reject their Messiah, and the NC, - just take a look in the mirror at the tithe paying, Sabbath keeping SDA’s. They have done the same thing, for the same reason.
2Cor. 3:12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
2Cor. 3:13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
The SDA’s, like the Jews, have been unable to let go of the law based OC. They won’t accept that it was a “fading” and temporary paradigm that is replaced by the NC.
They love to “read the Old Covenant,” praising God for his Moral Law, thinking it still binding on the church, when it is not. Thus they have made war against the NC, making up their own false, OC based doctrines, pretending God and Christ supports their twisted views, when nothing could be further from the truth.
This is very sad. I am sorry for you. You are just wasting your time writing books to defend SDA legalism. It is a great waste of time, which is running out for you.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (01-07-14 11:38 am)
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Tom's arguments are a little off the wall, but I try to find answers in the Bible to salvific issues and other scholars, sometimes not of the church denomination I am familiar with. Here is a position of a writer that I felt was logical and true:
Only Divine Law Can Define Sin
Since a law capable of defining sin must proceed from God, and since, as we have shown, the Mosaic system has been abolished by Christ, what law now furnishes the standard of judgment for the world? Under what law are Christians?
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son” (Heb. 1:1-2). God’s requirements can be made known to men only by revelation, and this he made known “unto the fathers by the prophets” in various ways and at different times. Do not overlook this fact; it is important. As we showed in a preceding chapter, divine revelation was by necessity a gradual, progressive process, in accommodation to human conditions. For this reason, commandments and obligations that God has laid upon men in one period of time have often been superseded, in the order of God’s plan, by something of a higher and more perfect nature. If men fail to understand this principle, they may, like the Israelites of old, attempt to perpetuate some of God’s appointments long after he himself is done with them.
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Have you ever wondered what God's Law in heaven was. The one the Devil and his angels trampled on and were thrown out of heaven for?? It couldn't have been the 10 Commandments, there was no man created yet or deliverance from Egypt. So what is God's Law, Christ's Law and New Covenant Law.
1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.
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What is the law. It is a reflection of God's character, partial for anything man has seen and we will be learning more and more about his goodness, his character throughout eternity. The Ten Commandments was one codification of his law/character, Christ's life another more perfect reflection of God's character, Christ's Law another codification or God's character. God's Law according to 1 Cor 9:21 appears to be superior to all other laws. However, until we are in His and Jesus presence, we will not learn as much as we could, just reading words, though the Holy Spirit can help with bringing about our understanding of how the law fits into the plan of Salvation. This is my understanding from my study, and I expect progression in that understanding as I grow with the Holy Spirit's direction.
Here's something to think about:
http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/the … s-god.html
http://www.churchofgodtwincities.org/vc … mirror.htm
http://carm.org/christianity/christian- … and-gospel
Not sure I agree with all stated in these articles, but there is some good to think on in each. We are not saved by the Law but it directs us to Christ who has kept it perfectly, no matter what version or reflection of God.
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Bob 2 said: Tom's arguments are a little off the wall, but I try to find answers in the Bible to salvific issues and other scholars, sometimes not of the church denomination I am familiar with.
Tom replied: My arguments cannot be refuted, which is why Hub cannot reply. Christians are not under the Moral Law, which was only given to the Jews. What is the point of trying to ignore what happened in the Reformation or Battle Creek?
The RCC fell apart because of their false views of the law and the Gospel. The world was turned upside-down because of this Gospel dispute. How can you not know this history? The SDA’s also self-destructed in both Battle Creek and Takoma Park because they misunderstood the Gospel and embraced a false view of the Law in Galatians. A position they still incorrectly hold today. (Even though Ellen White tried to correct this error.)
Those who deny history are destined to repeat it.
Hub is trapped in an SDA time warp, leaving him with limited knowledge from the 1950’s, where the facts were officially denied about doctrine and church history. He has done this by choice. Unless he can figure out a way to break out of this delusional loop, he will fade away in an assisted living facility, having lived a life of religious delusion and error.
His only hope is to process the latest information about theology and church history and repent for defending so much error, myth, and propaganda. But like the cultic SDA’s he defends, he refuses to admit any error, even as he ignores the facts that prove him wrong.
How many thousands of SDA’s have gone to their graves with a legalistic, confused, and worthless view of the Gospel? Very Sad.
Bob 2 said: Here is a position of a writer that I felt was logical and true:
Tom said: You have found a lot of confusion that is neither logical nor true.
Bob 2 then quoted: Only Divine Law Can Define Sin. Since a law capable of defining sin must proceed from God, and since, as we have shown, the Mosaic system has been abolished by Christ, what law now furnishes the standard of judgment for the world?
Tom said: Rather confusing. But a good question.
Bob Quoted: Under what law are Christians? “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son” (Heb. 1:1-2). God’s requirements can be made known to men only by revelation, and this he made known “unto the fathers by the prophets” in various ways and at different times. Do not overlook this fact; it is important. As we showed in a preceding chapter, divine revelation was by necessity a gradual, progressive process, in accommodation to human conditions. For this reason, commandments and obligations that God has laid upon men in one period of time have often been superseded, in the order of God’s plan, by something of a higher and more perfect nature. If men fail to understand this principle, they may, like the Israelites of old, attempt to perpetuate some of God’s appointments long after he himself is done with them.
Tom said: Fine. Jesus is the highest and best revelation of God. I agree that he supersedes Law and trumps it. Absolutely. Christians are only under the Law of Christ, not the 10 C’s given to the Jews via Moses.
Christ’s reformed doctrine of the 4th Commandment underscores and demonstrates this point. He has the authority and theology to change the Sabbath doctrine, and this is what he has done. Too bad so few are clueless.
Bob, your constant point that the Law of Christ trumps the OC Moral law is correct. I agree, the church must obey what Christ teaches about behavior, including the 4th Commandment. Jesus says we can work on the 7th day Sabbath and not be guilty of sin. I agree. The SDA’s do not. They fail to understand that Christ’s Sabbath law is different from the OC Sabbath of Moses. Same day, but different doctrine.
NCT has also failed to find the correct NC Sabbath of Christ. But they were correct to try. But now the true NC Sabbath has become public for all to see. Be careful how you respond.
Bob 2 mused: Have you ever wondered what God's Law in heaven was. The one the Devil and his angels trampled on and were thrown out of heaven for?? It couldn't have been the 10 Commandments, there was no man created yet or deliverance from Egypt. So what is God's Law, Christ's Law and New Covenant Law?
Tom replied: There is no male or female in heaven, which proves that the 10 C’s were custom made for Planet Earth.
Don’t let your cultic SDA background, with its obsession about Law; keep you from clear thinking about the Gospel Sabbath. For the record, Ellen White said that the law was unknown to the sinless angels in heaven. Which is to say it was not something that was promoted, embraced, or feared. Only after something went wrong, did the law emerge, along with its’ guilt and penalty.
Paul says the law is for bad people, not for sinless beings in heaven. Once sin emerged, so too did Law to condemn it.
1Tim. 1:6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
1Tim. 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
1Tim. 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Tim. 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Tim. 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
1Tim. 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
Christians are not to listen to, or follow, the law. Rather, they are to listen to, and follow, the teachings of Christ, not the Law.
The reason why the SDA’s have embraced the wrong Sabbath doctrine is because they are following the Law of Moses and not the Law of Christ. Moses and Jesus teach two very different doctrines of the 7th day Sabbath. Only one is the Gospel Sabbath. Embrace the wrong doctrine and the Gospel will become distorted and worthless. Look around at the Adventist wasteland and understand what has taken place and why.
Bob 2 said: What is the law. It is a reflection of God's character, partial for anything man has seen and we will be learning more and more about his goodness, his character throughout eternity.
Tom replied: Forget the law! It is a “fading” reflection of God. We are not to learn anything from the law. Rather, Jesus is the correct and perfect source for all Gospel instruction, behavior, and salvation. He represents God, freedom and liberty. NOT THE LAW.
2Cor. 3:11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
2Cor. 3:12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
2Cor. 3:13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
John 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”
John 14:8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 14:10 “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
John 14:11 “Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
Bob 2 said: The Ten Commandments was one codification of his law/character, Christ's life another more perfect reflection of God's character, Christ's Law another codification or God's character.
Tom said: In the NC, Jesus represents God and his character. Not the fading law of the 10C’s.
Bob 2 said: God's Law according to 1 Cor 9:21 appears to be superior to all other laws.
Tom said: Paul is saying he is “free” from Moses, but not Christ. Thus the law of Christ, which is his sayings, teachings, and commandments, is the law for all in the NC. Of course this includes what he teaches about the 4th Commandment.
1Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Bob 2 said: However, until we are in His and Jesus presence, we will not learn as much as we could, just reading words, though the Holy Spirit can help with bringing about our understanding of how the law fits into the plan of Salvation. This is my understanding from my study, and I expect progression in that understanding as I grow with the Holy Spirit's direction.
Tom replied: First off, no Laodicean that refuses to repent of their false doctrines is going to stand in front of Christ and receive Eternal Life. If you have not learned the correct Gospel before you die, including how to understand the Law and the NC Sabbath of Christ, it will be forever too late.
Second, those who turn from the written words of Christ in the Gospels, claiming they are being taught from the Holy Spirit, are delusional fools. True faith comes from the Words, sayings, and teachings of Christ. The HS can only remind us what Jesus has already said and what the apostles wrote. There are no new doctrines available from the HS. Sorry.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Third: There can be no doubt that Jesus teaches an active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath for the church. His written words are too clear and plain, and so too his actions and that of his legalistic enemies. There is no excuse for any Laodicean to misunderstand the Gospel Sabbath. Any that reject this Gospel doctrine, have rejected Christ and Eternal Life.
Bob posted: Here's something to think about:
http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/the … s-god.html
http://www.churchofgodtwincities.org/vc … mirror.htm
http://carm.org/christianity/christian- … and-gospel
Tom replied: Bob, the first link is OC SDA, it is one of their many “stealth” sites where they refuse to admit that they are SDA. Such behavior is dishonest and deceptive, as well as delusional.
"Since having a denominational name gives Satan something to attack and many Christians have the tendency to judge truth by denomination rather than the Word of God, we have chosen not to reveal denomination. This decision was made with much prayer and ultimately so this ministry could be more effective in spreading truth to the world."
http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/about.html
This site also includes a defense of Uriah Smiths view of the law in Galatians that caused the 1888 debates and destroyed the Battle Creek Empire. There is even an OC Jew on this site, Steve Wohlberg, trying his hardest to promote the law and fight the Gospel. Pitiful.
http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/gal … allaw.html
Why would I want to “think about” this awful site? It is full of false, anti-Christ doctrine blasphemy. Ellen White would also hate this site; it represents everything that is wrong and stupid with Adventism.
It is hard to believe, in this age of knowledge, that the SDA church is still promoting such outdated legalism and gross error. They can’t seem to learn from their past mistakes of 1888 and Glacier View. What fools they are.
Wow! This site is delusional, even claiming that because the SDA’s have so many enemies attacking it, that this proves they have the truth. Really?
Listen to this SDA hubris:
WARNING: The most accurate of these Churches is the one that has the most criticisms and attacks coming against it. Never underestimate the ability of the enemy to make a Church with the most Biblical truth and the best understanding on Bible Prophecy to be labelled falsely as a cult. It should be obvious to us that Satan will attack truth the hardest and has no trouble finding those he can deceive to accomplish his task very convincingly.
http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/sab … rches.html
Here is the second site. It too is full of gross legalism and character perfection. Thus the first two sites have the wrong view of the law and the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath. They feature Roman Catholic theology. The Carm site seems more Protestant.
Here is some more typical error:
The Law - God's Design for Our Lives
God is telling us that if we want to be in His family and in His Kingdom, we have to become like Him. His law describes Him. He wants His values to be our values; He wants us to take on His character. When people look at us, they should be able to see the reflection of Christ.
Those Christians who turn aside from keeping the commandments are essentially saying, “We don’t want to be like God, but we want to be in His Kingdom and His family.” The Bible gives very strict warnings about this kind of misguided and wrong thinking. You cannot have the Kingdom of God without His commandments.
The commandments have not been abolished nor done away with; they are living spiritual laws. The apostles clearly taught this, and Jesus Christ’s authority confirmed it. The word of God has made this issue incontrovertible and unmistakably clear.
Let’s heed God’s commandments; let’s do His will. Let’s follow the example of Jesus Christ, and let’s keep God’s holy commandments, for they will bring blessings and life to all who keep them.
http://www.churchofgodtwincities.org/vc … -lives.htm
This is not the Gospel. These legalistic zealots sound like the SDA’s. Which is why they also practice OC Sabbath keeping, tithe, and Jewish food laws. Unlike the SDA’s however, they also observe Passover and the Jewish Festivals. They are OC Christians. Judaizers. They don’t understand the Gospel correctly. No Sabbatarian understands the Gospel Sabbath correctly, least of all those that misunderstand the Two Covenants.
Bob 2 said: Not sure I agree with all stated in these articles, but there is some good to think on in each. We are not saved by the Law but it directs us to Christ who has kept it perfectly, no matter what version or reflection of God.
Tom replied: Wow! The first two were worthless and wrong. They are OC, Anti-Christ, and anti-Protestant. Why would you even quote such error?
Bottom line; it is time for all Sabbatarians to get serious about the NC Sabbath of Christ, starting with the SDA’s, they are the largest, the one that claims to be the greatest of all Sabbath experts.
While the Adventists should be congratulated for understanding that Sunday is false, and that only the 7th day can be the Lord’s Day, there is more to this NC doctrine then which day is correct. Much more.
There is only one correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath, and the SDA’s have not found it. Until they repent for being so wrong about the 7th day, they will continue to self-destruct for all to see. If they want to survive, then they must repent and follow Gospel truth, paying careful attention to what Jesus, the head theologian of the Church teaches.
Is anyone listening?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (01-11-14 3:35 pm)
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Tom said:
True faith comes from the Words, sayings, and teachings of Christ. The HS can only remind us what Jesus has already said and what the apostles wrote. There are no new doctrines available from the HS. Sorry.
Tom, Jesus never commanded a Sabbath OC or NC be kepted. He claimed to have fulfilled it, Luke 24:44. You also diminish what Christ said He was going to do:
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom, you give a false version of Jesus words to his disciples, and you diminish the Apostles by you lack of understanding of the above passage. Jesus does not say the Holy Spirit will only say what Jesus has already been said on earth. He says, "I have much more to say to you...." John 16:12 Jesus does say the HS will only speak what He hears, but not old words Jesus has already said. This is where you diminish what Jesus authorized the Apostles to do and to receive. You believe that all that is to be said of the Gospel and HS empowered living, was said in the 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The NC could not have started until after the command at the Last Supper (1 Cor 11:25) and at His Ascension. “This cup is the new covenant in my blood;" and Luke 24:"49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." These signs are the anticipation of the beginning of the New Covenant and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. You diminish Paul and the other Apostles by ignoring their words.
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Tom Wells, in Chapter 11, compares the Old Covenant and New Covenant to the transformation of "caterpillar" to "butterfly" , a metamorphosis that would not be understood if each step was not closely watched. The Old Covenant had "shadows" of the "New Covenant" that has the better promise and/or reality. Better Promises: Hebrews 8:6 Shadows: Colossians 2:16, 17.
Was there a new law for this New Covenant, YES. Heb 7:12
What was it? : 1 Cor 9: 21
God's Law: God's Law is what is completely God, which we will never understand and study for eternity.
Christ's Law : All of Christ's directives given during His life and all directives of the writing Apostles that were Holy Spirit inspired. They are recorded throughout the New Testament, more numerous than 10 for sure, just at the Sermon on the Mount.
the law: Mosaic Law given to the Jews. Exodus 34:28 A unique people, a)created by God and b) delivered from Egypt (Deut 5).
Can't apply to you and I, we never qualified. A New Covenant based on the Abrahamic Promise qualified us to sonship and Salvation if we believed in Jesus gift of forgiveness allowing the Holy Spirit to live in and change them to the likeness of Jesus.
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Bob 2, refuses to repent of his false Sabbath views. After admittedly being wrong for most of his life as a cultic SDA, he is now certain that he has found solid truth with the NCT crowd and their Every Day/No Day Sabbath. Absurd and sad.
Bob 2 said: Tom, Jesus never commanded a Sabbath OC or NC be kept.
Tom said: Bob, you are free to deny Christ’s teachings. Many do this, so you are not alone. However, Eternal Life is not for the blind or trite, or for those like Hub that walk in the footsteps of the legalistic, anti-Gospel Jews. It is only for those humble enough to repent, embracing Christ with both hands by faith.
The Gospels contain about 200 verses of Sabbath instruction. Within this large subset, reside the words of Christ about the NC Sabbath, starting with his famous teaching that the Sabbath was made for all mankind.
Those why deny what Jesus so clearly teaches, promotes, and defends, are not following Christ, the Good Shepherd, but a false Jesus. Such confused sheep are very foolish. They are lost in the woods, food for wolves. Sad.
Bob 2 is now telling flat out lies to defend his false views: Bob said: He claimed to have fulfilled it, Luke 24:44.
Tom said: Bob, why do make such false statements? Why would you ignore scores of Sabbath instruction in the Gospels, only to embrace some other passage that is not speaking about the Sabbath? And why do you make up doctrines, trying to pretend they come from Christ?
Jesus never teaches, or says, that he is the Sabbath, or that he fulfilled the Sabbath. Such myth is only that. What is the matter with you? Hub ignores what he wants and so too do you. You both have no idea how to understand what the Bible teaches, nor do either of you seem care. You both are obsessed with your own false and personal views of the Gospel, most of which are worthless and wrong. Sad.
Bob 2 said: You also diminish what Christ said He was going to do, (re HS).
Tom said: All theology must be grounded in the Gospel teaching of Christ. Not in what we think the Holy Spirit is trying to tell us personally. Such a hermeneutic is made for false doctrine, which is why you like it.
Both you and Hub are going down in the Judgment. Heaven is not going to put up with your silly games for a second. So the joke is on all who waste their time promoting false doctrine. You both had better repent before its too late. There is no more arguing doctrine once in the grave. You had better get it right, -now, while you still have a slight chance to find Eternal Life. Stop fighting Christ. There is no future in it.
Bob 2 said: Tom, you give a false version of Jesus words to his disciples, and you diminish the Apostles by you lack of understanding of the above passage. (Jn 16: 12)
Tom said: Ha! This is comical. You refuse to believe that Jesus teaches that his NC Sabbath was made for all mankind, and yet, I am accused of misunderstanding and misrepresenting what Jesus teaches. Really?
I believe in the words of Christ, and you don’t; so that makes me the bad guy? Hardly. Your mind is broken; your ability to think and reason has been ruined by so many years in cultic Adventism. Hub is in the same sad situation, with his religious dementia that has locked his brain into 1950’s cultic Adventism. Sad.
Bob 2 said: Jesus does not say the Holy Spirit will only say what Jesus has already been said on earth. He says, "I have much more to say to you...." John 16:12
Tom replied: Wrong. The “much more to say to you” was about the Gentiles coming into the church, as well as about eschatology and the future of the church. However, all these points can be found in the Jesus Gospel teaching, as well as the book of Acts and Revelation, where we see Christ interacting with his apostles, including Peter about the Gentiles and John about eschatology in the book of Revelation.
Bob 2 said: Jesus does say the HS will only speak what He hears, but not old words Jesus has already said. This is where you diminish what Jesus authorized the Apostles to do and to receive.
Tom said: Look at 16:2. The subject is Christ words. V 13 is a reference to the words of Christ in v 12. V 14 says the HS “will take of mine,” meaning Jesus words and “disclose it” to his believers. That is, the words of Christ.
John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
John 16:14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
John 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
This idea that the HS has given Zaspel and Wells new doctrine about the Every Day/NO Day Sabbath is ludicrous. It is blasphemy.
So too Hub, with his SDA errors about the IJ, etc. This is where you get this false spin about the HS. It comes from the cultic SDA’s who also teach that “new doctrines” are supposed to come into the church through the HS. This is how they defend the IJ, which Jesus never taught or promoted.
Both of your brains needs to be de-programmed of cultic SDA habits or you will never be able to understand the Gospel. The HS does not support any false doctrine, much less about the Judgment or a false view of the Sabbath, which refutes what Christ teaches in the Gospels.
Let all understand: The Sabbath doctrine shows who is following the genuine words of Christ, and who is not. The Gospel Sabbath distinguishes those who are following the Good Shepherd from the legions of lost sheep that have foolishly followed a false Christ and his anti-Gospel hired hands.
Bob 2 said: You believe that all that is to be said of the Gospel and HS empowered living, was said in the 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Tom said: The words of Christ are found in the Gospels. Jesus teaches that the HS will “help” us “remember” his words, not hear new doctrines from someone else. Why did you omit a number of other passages where Christ speaks very clearly about the role of the HS? Did you think if you ignored them, they would not count? You and Hub are both so very dishonest with the Bible. I find it disgusting. Sad.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 15:27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
Does the NCT version of the EveryDay/No Day Sabbath “testify” about the genuine Christ of the Gospels or reflect his words? NO!
Does the IJ “testify” to the Gospel teachings of Christ? NO!
The HS can only “testify” to the words of Christ, which were written by his apostles. Period. This is what Jesus clearly teaches. He does not say that new doctrines can come into the church from his apostles or the HS, much less the Pope, Ellen White, or Zaspel and Wells. Sorry. Like it or not, it is the words of Christ that matter for doctrine. Those that seek Eternal Life will LISTEN TO HIM. Those that are foolish, blind, or “insane,” will not.
Mark 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
Luke 15:1 Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him.
Luke 21:38 And all the people would get up early in the morning to come to Him in the temple to listen to Him.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
Eternal life is only for those who “listen” to Christ. Not for those that refuse.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 7:23 “Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
John 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Those, like the SDA’s or the NCT crowd, that reject what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, are rejecting Christ. Period. Shame on the SDA’s, and all others that follow a false Sabbath and a false Christ.
Bob 2 said: The NC could not have started until after the command at the Last Supper (1 Cor 11:25) and at His Ascension. “This cup is the new covenant in my blood;" and Luke 24:"49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high." These signs are the anticipation of the beginning of the New Covenant and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. You diminish Paul and the other Apostles by ignoring their words.
Tom said: Those who pretend that the words of Christ are not part of the NC, and not sufficient for Eternal Life, are disqualified from any Gospel discussion. They stand outside the Kingdom of God. They are fools that would rather make up their own personal version of the Gospel Story instead of repenting and embracing the genuine Gospel of Christ. Such are lost, lost, lost.
It is time for the words and teachings of Christ to take center stage in every church and denomination, starting with the wretched SDA’s. When this happens, another Reformation will take place, with one false doctrine after another thrown out the door.
Is anyone listening?
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (01-13-14 7:12 pm)
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Tom, please supply one directive Christ gave in his ministry to keep the Sabbath. Plain and simple. You have claimed 100s of verses do this. Supply one command, and one anticipation that the Sabbath will be part of His Kingdom the New Covenant. Until then go back to your thread on the Reformed Sabbath, unbiblical, and talk to yourself because you aren't responding to people trying to talk to you.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-14-14 1:28 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, please supply one directive Christ gave in his ministry to keep the Sabbath.
Tom said: We have played this game before and you lost, nothing has changed since the last time you tried this stunt.
Pay attention: Jesus teaches, among other things, that his NC Sabbath is made for all mankind, just like his Gospel, of which his 7th day Sabbath is part.
So here is your “one directive” from Christ, the creator of the world and of the Sabbath that disproves your false view. Here is a very plain “Jesus said.” Listen to him and learn the NC Sabbath.
Mark 9:7 “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”
Jesus teaches a 7th day Sabbath for humanity. “Plain and simple.” He never claimed to be the fulfillment of the Sabbath, much less to abolish it, or change it to Sunday, or into an Every Day spiritual head-trip of allegorical rest. Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for all mankind. (And he is not talking about the OC Sabbath of the Jews, where work is forbidden and sinful.)
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Moreover, Jesus’ NC Sabbath is not to be “kept” as per the 4th Commandment, like the Jews, err... I mean, the SDA’s teach. No. Jesus teaches an active doctrine of the Sabbath that features congregational fellowship in his name as well as freedom from the law. Christ teaches it is no longer sinful to work on the 7th day.
But you don’t believe this is what Jesus teaches, even though every translation of Mark says “mankind” and not Jew. Thus you close your eyes to the Gospel facts that prove you wrong, refusing to admit any error. This is what the Jews did, and many others…
See:
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 983#p11983
So there you have it: you don’t believe the first point Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath, nor do you understand the many other points from the Lord of the Sabbath and the head theologian of the church.
Bob snarked: Plain and simple.
Tom replied: Yes. It is very plain and simple. You do not respect or follow the words, teachings, or saying of Christ about the 7th day Sabbath or anything else. Sad. You are a confused and disoriented SDA sheep, lost in the woods, food for wolves.
Bob 2 said: You have claimed 100s of verses, supply one command, and one anticipation that the Sabbath will be part of His Kingdom the New Covenant.
Tom said: While there are many verses in the Gospels where Jesus promotes, defends, and debates his NC Sabbath, it only takes a few to prove that Christ does teach a NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for all. It is an irrefutable point. Why keep trying to deny it?
Here are three verses that show 1) the authority for the NC Sabbath, 2) the application of this NC doctrine, and 3) the consequences of disbelief.
1 Authority for NC Sabbath,
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
2 Application –All Mankind
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
3. Consequences of disbelief
3) Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Most all today are very ashamed of what Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, teaches about the Sabbath, Law, and the Gospel. Thus many have made up their own doctrines, without any authority, that fit better with their false views and traditions.
The SDA’s are one of the worst, and thus they have embraced the OC Sabbath of Moses, repudiating the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. They claim all others should follow their worthless, anti-Christ, doctrine or be lost.
Wow! The SDA’s are as blind as were the tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Jews that also fought against Christ and his active Sabbath for all mankind. They too will pay a heavy price for rejecting the Gospel and promoting false, anti-Christ doctrine.
Bob, Hub, you both need to repent for disbelieving what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. Bob, you need to repent for NCT and Hub for his OC views.
No need to be ashamed of Jesus’ view, his doctrine of the NC Sabbath is pure genius, calculated to expose those who are only pretending to follow the Good Shepherd.
Bob said: Until then go back to your thread on the Reformed Sabbath, unbiblical and talk to yourself because you aren't responding to people trying to talk to you.
Tom said: Ha! Your bluff was called and you lost. What you claim does not exist in the Gospels, does exist. Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath for all mankind. The fact you don’t like this is just too bad. Only what Jesus teaches matters. He is the author, defender, and protector of the NC Sabbath, not to be confused with the OC Sabbath of the SDA’s. Those who follow Christ will understand and embrace the same, NC doctrine.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
As for the Reformed Sabbath thread: the last post showed 30 different versions of Mark 2: 27, all showing the word for man, mankind, human kind, humans, human beings, and people, etc. Proving that you are wrong. So regardless of the thread, NCT is wrong on all of them. And so too the OC legalism of the SDA’s. For Hub to defend what is so clearly wrong and against the Gospel is sad.
Bob, you have lost this debate so badly that there is no hope of a comeback. Your NCT views are easily exposed as nonsense. When are you going to understand this reality? When is Hub, the OC SDA?
Bob, you are not capable of having a serious or honest discussion about the Gospel or the Sabbath, and neither is Hub. You both are living in your own different fantasy worlds where the Bible is twisted to mean whatever you want it to mean. What is the point of such false religion? Pitiful.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom, if you read any scholar of this issue, Christ was not saying every man was expected to keep the Sabbath. And there is only an OC Sabbath, Christ fulfilled the OC Sabbath by becoming our REST. Col 2:16-17 Eph 2:14. The stone tablets of the 10 Commandments had the fate as outlined here: 2 Cor 3:7. You don't seem to disagree with me that the OC took the stone tablets away, and the New Covenant with new promises and new rules/laws are written on the heart and can be verified by reading the post-Cross part of the Bible. Christ never said all men were obligated to keep the Sabbath. This was one of the barriers that Christ removed as stated here:
Eph 2: 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-15-14 12:46 am)
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Bob, a former SDA, is still refusing to repent of NCT and learn the correct Gospel Sabbath from Christ. Hub is also refusing to change his false, SDA, views, and is unable to comment.
Bob 2 said: Tom, if you read any scholar of this issue, Christ was not saying every man was expected to keep the Sabbath.
Tom replied: Ha! So we are to listen to “any scholar” rather than Christ? Is this what you mean to say?
It is clear that you prefer Zaspel and Wells to what Christ teaches. Legions also follow this person or that scholar, rather then Christ. No one will receive Eternal Life from anyone but Christ, so it is a fatal mistake to follow anyone else.
The words of Christ in Mark 2: 27 need no spin or explanation, much less from the anti-Sabbatarian crowd that is obsessed with destroying the weekly doctrine of the Sabbath in the church. Jesus words are not to be filtered or revised by any scholars. He is the master teacher, the greatest theologian the world has ever seen. When Jesus speaks, we must listen, not turn to others to see what he means, much less change or deny his words.
Christ is not confused in the least about what he is saying about the Sabbath. The sooner you can admit this fact and stop arguing and debating with Jesus the better off you will be.
There can be no denial that Christ teaches a weekly, Gospel Sabbath for all mankind. While this text does not explain the theological basis for Christ’s reformed Sabbath, others do. Thus when all the Gospel passages about the Sabbath are studied, it becomes clear that Jesus does teach a NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for all mankind. Which explains why the church has been meeting once a week since the 1st century, without fail, even to this very day, even if they are in error about the day and the doctrine.
The last church will get the Sabbath doctrine right when they understand the Gospel fully and correctly. To do this, they must repent and pay close attention to what Christ teaches. His views must be our views and this includes what he teaches about the 7th day and the 4th Commandment.
Bob 2 said: And there is only an OC Sabbath, Christ fulfilled the OC Sabbath by becoming our REST.
Tom replied: Wrong. There is an OC and a NC doctrine of the Sabbath. To say there is only the OC Sabbath is the same as saying there is only an OC Christ. But this is obviously wrong. Jesus represents the NC, not the OC. He teaches a NC Sabbath, even as he claims authority over the 7th day.
There is a NC Christ, with a NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. This is what the Gospels show. It is beyond rational dispute.
Any that refuse to embrace the Lord of the Sabbath, with his NC Sabbath, will be locked out of the Kingdom of God. Any that refuse to follow Jesus Sabbath teachings will be doomed in the Judgment. Just like the Jews that also hated Jesus’ NC Sabbath.
We must listen to Christ:
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 7:23 “Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
John 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Bob 2 said: Col 2:16-17 Eph 2:14. The stone tablets of the 10 Commandments had the fate as outlined here: 2 Cor 3:7. You don't seem to disagree with me that the OC took the stone tablets away, and the New Covenant with new promises and new rules/laws are written on the heart and can be verified by reading the post-Cross part of the Bible.
Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, you need to understand and quote the words of Jesus. He is the one that makes doctrine for those that follow him, not Paul. The words, sayings, and teachings of Christ matter most. What does Jesus teach about the NC Sabbath? This is the question.
The OC, which is Judaism, is abolished, including the 4th commandment. Jesus understood this theological change and necessity, thus he teaches that no Christian is to follow the law of the 4th Commandment by resting and not working. Christ changed the Sabbath law, granting Priestly Freedom from the law for all to see.
Love is the fulfilling of the law. That is what is written on the heart in the NC believer. Love. Not law keeping. Thus the NC Sabbath is not about the OC law of the 4th Commandment, which is ignored, but about Christ and his NC law, which features not only “love” but also, freedom from the guilt and penalty of the law.
Bob 2 said: Christ never said all men were obligated to keep the Sabbath. This was one of the barriers that Christ removed as stated here: Eph 2: 14.
Tom said: First, Christ teaches that there is a NC Sabbath for all mankind. Period. He also said that those that follow him must also follow what he teaches about the Sabbath.
You refuse to believe what Jesus teaches about the 7th day, claiming that he meant to say the Sabbath was made only for the Jews. But this is not what he said and every scholar in the world knows this linquisticall fact.
Moreover, to then say that Jesus teaches he fulfilled the Sabbath, which is now changed to an Every Day / No Day doctrine - is absurd. There are no passages in the Gospels that say any such thing. Away with such worthless myths.
Jesus teaches freedom from the 4th Commandment. He does not teach what the SDA’s claim, which is, that we should obey this OC law.
So yes, Christ never teaches OC Sabbath keeping, and I have never said otherwise. Rather, Jesus teaches an active and reformed 7th day, where the Gospel trumps the law for all to see. He teaches a NC Sabbath, where the church is to meet in Gospel fellowship and praise on this day, without any rules against work, travel, cooking, etc. This is very different from the OC Sabbath.
The better one understands the Gospel, and the teachings of Christ, the clearer the doctrine of the NC Sabbath will become. A confused and incorrect view of the Gospel will always result in a confused and incorrect view of the Sabbath doctrine. Only when the genuine Gospel is fully and correctly understood, can the Gospel Sabbath emerge.
It is time for the genuine Gospel teaching of Christ to replace the chaos, legalism, and error that has overwhelmed the Adventist Community. While no denomination today is free from false doctrine, and none have the Sabbath correct, the SDA’s should be the first to repent and finally understand the correct NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. They need to repent and set an example for all to see.
Those SDA’s that embraced NCT, thinking they had finally found the true doctrine of the Sabbath, have made a big mistake. There is no such Every Day / NO Day doctrine as they claim, nor have they found the solution to the error of the SDA’s.
Time for everyone to understand the genuine Gospel, which includes the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. It is very different from what the SDA’s have been teaching, and all others as well. It will come as a great surprise to all, precipitating Gospel debate, division, and genuine Reformation.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism
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OK, Tom, don't ignore the quote of Eph 2:14. That's more than ceremonial talk. I read part of Des Ford on the Covenants and not sure if he is still a Covenant Theologian or what he is. But he believes in continuity of the two covenants more than you do. Your problem is you don't believe Jesus had to conform to the law He was born under and could only talk anticipatorily about His Kingdom, the New Covenant. Yes things like the Sermon on the Mount are New Covenant talk, but He had to comply with the OC while introducing the NC. He ran out of time with the disciples as explained here
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Your second problem is your denigration of the Holy Spirit's work, and the allowance to be convinced in your own mind, Romans 14:5.
Also, this might help with your interpretations:
Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-19-14 12:37 pm)
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Bob, refuses to listen to Christ. He thinks Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath and the Good Shepherd combined.
Eph. 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
Eph. 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into done new man, thus establishing peace,
Eph. 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
Bob 2 said: OK, Tom, don't ignore the quote of Eph 2:14. That's more than ceremonial talk.
Tom said: While Paul correctly teaches that Christ is our “peace,” he does not say that he is our Sabbath, or our Sabbath rest. There is also no such phrase as “Sabbath peace” in the entire Bible. Nor is Jesus to be compared to any day of the week, much less its “fulfillment.”
Why do you think the word “peace” means the 7th day Sabbath? Jesus never says what you claim, and neither does Paul. Stop with the myths and fiction.
As for which law was “abolished:” it was both the Moral and the Ceremonial laws. It was Judaism, in total, that was abolished, including the 4th Commandment, which Christ teaches we are not, not, not, to obey. While such a point stuns the legalistic SDA’s, it is time for them to face up to what Jesus really teaches about the 7th day and repent for their false, OC views.
Bob 2 said: I read part of Des Ford on the Covenants and not sure if he is still a Covenant Theologian or what he is. But he believes in continuity of the two covenants more than you do.
Tom said: Dr. Ford is a great Gospel theologian. No doubt you are having a hard time understanding him because he does not support NCT whatsoever. He separated from Richard Fredericks when he embraced NCT, and so too should everyone repudiate this false and absurd theology that is based on myth and error. Dr. Ford does not support NCT or what the SDA’s teach about the 7th day. But he does support the NC Sabbath of Christ. Which is why he never rejected the 7th day as the correct Lord’s Day.
Bob 2 said: Your problem is you do (not) belief Jesus had to conform to the law He was born under and could only talk anticipatorily about His Kingdom, the New Covenant.
Tom said: You don’t know what you are saying, so how can I understand what you don’t understand? Jesus taught the Gospel prior to the cross.
He is also above the law, thus he does not have to conform to Judaism as you think. Just because the SDA’s have made the law greater than Christ and God, thinking it is the meaning of life, this does not make their obsession true. It is not. Jesus trumps the law, which is why he can curse and abolish Judaism and change the law of the 4th Commandment.
All SDA’s have a big problem with the law. Like the Jews, they think it is the greatest thing in the world, when that was never true. The Moral law is “contrary” to Gospel Faith; it is not complementary to it.
Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”
Bob 2 said: Your second problem is your denigration of the Holy Spirit's work, and the allowance to be convinced in your own mind, Romans 14:5.
Tom said: It is absurd to ignore the many texts in the Gospels that contain Jesus teaching about his NC Sabbath so that you can run to Paul and claim his few comments explain the Sabbath. This is so dishonest and against the rules of hermeneutics, that it shows you are not dealing in good faith in these discussions. You are an apologist for false doctrine, not a seeker for Gospel truth from Christ. Shame on you.
Moreover, Jesus teaches that the HS functions to remind us of Jesus’ words, sayings, and teachings in the Gospels. He does not give anyone new doctrine, which is impossible. I showed you a number of texts that clearly teach this point. But yet, you routinely ignore the words of Christ because you are obsessed with defending false doctrine. Fatal mistake.
Does Christ teach that we should ignore his words and run to others to find what we want to hear? Or does he teach something very different? Here are the words of Jesus, which condemn you:
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Matt. 24:35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Luke 7:23 “Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
John 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Those that follow Christ for Eternal Life must pay close and careful attention to what Jesus says in the Gospels. You and Hub, have both refused to be honest with Jesus’ Sabbath teachings. This will be fatal if you do not repent and embrace the Gospel correctly, including the NC Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
It is time for the words, sayings, and teachings of Christ to take center stage and amaze us all.
The best way to show that anyone is listening to the genuine Christ, it to understand and embrace his active, amazing, and reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath.
Jesus teaches this NC doctrine is the sign of the Good Shepherd. Thus he even knows the names of his sheep that follow his NC Sabbath, because they have been written in the Lamb’s book of life.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Rev. 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
The SDA’s were correct to understand that the 7th day Sabbath doctrine is very important in the last days. However, they have misunderstood the Law and the Gospel, especially the Sabbath, and now they are self-destructing in error and great confusion as a result. Those that fight against the Gospel Sabbath are, like the Jews, blind. They are fighting against Christ and rejecting Eternal Life.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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