You are not logged in.
TEST
Offline
Tom, the book New Covenant Theology has a Table of Contents and shows it is bigger than just the Sabbath and Law:
PREFACE
Approaching a New Covenant Theology
Chapter 1
The Christian Appeal of a New Covenant Theology
Tom Wells
Chapter 2
A Brief History of Divine Revelation
Fred Zespal
Chapter 3
The Description of the New Covenant (Part One)
Tom Wells
Chapter 4
The Description of the New Covenant (Part Two)
Tom Wells
Chapter 5
Matthew 5:17-20--A History of its Interpretation
Fred Zaspel
Chapter 6
Matthew 5:17-20--Contextual Observations
Fred Zaspel
Chapter 7
Matthew 5: 17-20--The Messianic Mission
Fred Zaspel
Chapter 8
Matthew 5:17-20--The Law of Christ in Matthew 5:18-20 and Related Passages
Fred Zaspel
Chapter 9
The Continuing Relevance of Divine Law
Tom Wells
Chapter 10
The Meaning and Source of Moral Law
Tom Wells
Chapter 11
Critiquing a Friendly Attack (Part One)
Tom Wells
Chapter 12
Critiquing a Friendly Attack (Part One)
Tom Wells
Chapter 13
The Sabbath a Test Case
Fred Zaspel
Chapter 14
The Sabbath: Some Criticla Texts in Paul
Tom Wells
Chapter 15
Our Creeds and How They Affect Our Understanding
Tom Wells
Appendices
1 The Relation of Law to the Work of Evangelism
2 The Relations Between the Biblical Connections
3 "Covenant" and its cognates in the NT
4. The Promises of the Abrahamic Covenant
5 A Table for Studying the Decalogue as Commanded by God in the NT
6 John Bunyan on the Creation Sabbath
Bibliography
Indices
So Tom there is a lot more to the book than the Sabbath and I don't plan to be goaded to get to your favorite subject of a non-biblical Reformed Sabbath. It ain't in the rest of the book or in the Bible. If inspiration stops with Christ's Ascension, you are missing out on a lot the Bible has to offer. I studied in our schools and I think Bible is taught up through John, and jumps to Revelation. Paul is treated as you are treating him. IMO.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-01-13 7:19 pm)
Offline
Tom said:
Here is where the NCT people become dishonest with the Word. They claim Jesus has the most authority, but yet, they overlook what he teaches about the Sabbath so that they can run to Paul to hear what they want. This is no way to understand what Jesus teaches.
The point being made is from Jesus himself as He ends His ministry on this earth. Note this text:
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom this gets to your point, all that needs to be said on a given subject, including the Sabbath, had not been said by Him when he Ascended. The Holy Spirit would speak through men Jesus had appointed. To say Paul's writings are not inspired will get you in a lot of trouble, since most of the NT is Paul speaking.
This maybe is a point that is very telling. We, you and I, will always be at odds if we don't agree on the Holy Spirit speaking truth through appointed men after Christ's ascension. I told you that the book was more than just about the Sabbath. It is also about how we view inspiration and the Holy Spirit's work.
Tom you keep pushing on the Sabbath, assuming that that is the critical point to this book and yet it has caught you in a fallacy about the Holy Spirit. Are Jesus words the only inspired words we are to accept as doctrine? Impossible!!!!!
Offline
OK, Tom, you said:
Don’t misunderstand, NCT is correct to claim that the Sunday Lord’s day is wrong, and so too what the SDA’s preach. Good for them to understand that every church as a wrong view about the law and the Gospel, which is underscored by their wrong view of the Sabbath or Lord’s Day.
However, they have FAILED to understand what Jesus teaches about the 4th commandment. They too have embraced much error and false doctrine about the Sabbath. They have not resolved the debate and in fact have only made it more confusing by introducing additional errors.
Adventist Reform has the correct solution to the Sabbath debate, not NCT. Let those who seek Gospel truth pay attention to what Christ teaches.
I haven't seen you present "the correct solution" other than to say work is OK on the Sabbath. That's enlightening. Amongst your good works do you include, is it OK to shop for groceries for a sick old lady, and fill your car with gas on your way to her house. What other rules are contained in "the correct solution"? If it is OK to buy the groceries, is it OK for me to run my Grocery store on Saturday???Can I drive a gas truck to refill the gas station you get your tank of gas from???
Jesus simplified this by fulfilling the Sabbath rest at the cross. He can give you rest by FORGIVING you. What a simple answer!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (07-01-13 11:46 pm)
Offline
Tom said and quoted:
Bob 2 said: I have asked before who else believes as you do on the Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: Jesus. Jesus is the primary source of the Reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. He believes it, and he taught his disciples to also believe and follow him in this new view of the 7th day Sabbath.
So, Tom, you were the only human to get it right???? Just you and Jesus?? You mock what He said with that line. Who else has published what you are saying is truth. What congregation has congregates that can state it exactly as you have?
Offline
These two paragraphs at the end of Chapter 2 of New Covenant Theology is important:
This is a most significant promise so far as we are concerned today. a very important line of questions asked at some time by most Christians is,
"How can we know the NT is the word of God? How can we be sure? How can we know it is truth? How can we know it is accurate? Must we rely on an inner witness? Must we rely on the 'self attesting' nature of it?"
No, as helpful as these are. we have something much better. We have Christ's own word on it. He chose and commissioned these men for exactly this purpose. He invested them with his own authority and sent them His Spirit to teach and guide them infallibly. The apostles' witness to Christ and His and His teaching and work will not be there own invention nor mere reliance on their own memory. No. It is the very word fo the Son himself. Such is our Lord's promise.
Accordingly, when we read of the NT Scriptures coming to us by the inspiration of the Spirit, we should not think of the Holy Spirit acting on his own. He came to further the teaching of Christ. This also is how we should think when we read of "the law of Christ"---it is not the red letters only, but the entire body of writings given by the Spirit of Christ through the apostles.
Tom and this text is one that should be read seriously if you wish to demote Paul and the apostles, from the position given them by Jesus Himself with the Holy Spirit:
1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-01-13 11:42 pm)
Offline
When was the church established and who were parts of the foundation along with Christ as the Corner Stone? Note:
Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
In order for the church to be built Jesus had to commission apostles and prophets. Were they inspired when they spoke and wrote. They had to be for the "temple" to grow. Jesus was not the last word with His words and works while He was alive and reminds the Apostles He will send the Holy Spirit that will tell them the truth that the Spirit heard from Jesus. Here is another text that speaks to this also:
Acts 26:15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
If we ignor Paul's commission we ignor Jesus who commissioned him. And we are hopelessly lost.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-03-13 1:23 am)
Offline
Were the Apostles given authority by Christ and the Holy Spirit to speak and write officially in Christ's name and the Holy Spirit? Yes. Was the new church built with one Covenant and two Administrations? No. Two distinct covenants are spoken of Heb 8:13. The New Testament speaks of apostles and prophets in their current time they were in parts of the foundation of the church. When did the church start?? If Peter is the Rock upon who Jesus would build His church it could not be after Peter's death.
Offline
Those that try to demote Paul and belittle the commission and revelation given to Paul forget this part of Paul's life:
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
During this time Paul, through revelation from Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit was shown the message/gospel he was to present. Notice he did not consult with other apostles appointed before him. His message was not to be a rehash of Judaism. We should search his writings for the truth rather than reject Jesus Christ and His Holy Spirit directly or indirectly as Tom has admitted. Tom said:
Bob 2 said: You have never supplied what I have asked for many times. Who collaborated with you? You, yourself and you?
Tom replied: Asked and answered many times. I follow the 1st century theologians named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The books they wrote are the basis for my theology, as well as for understanding the NC doctrine of the Sabbath. Of course there are many others, including Dr. Ford, but the primary source for all doctrine has to be the Gospels.
Tom ignors Christ's own words:
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
If Tom relies only on the Gospels for his Reformed Sabbath truth, he is basing it on an incomplete source by Christ's own admission that He had not given His complete message to them, but the Holy Spirit would "finish" the job. Some may have been aware that Tom's puts Paul and the Apostles he interacted with in an uninspired position. Does he teach the Bible is uninspired from Acts to Jude? I have heard him quote Revelation, so his Reformed Sabbath is based on the Gospels and Revelation. He misses a lot by this admission.
Offline
The question is, did Jesus support the OC Sabbath or make a Reformed Sabbath for the New Covenant? Jesus when He was sent by His Father had to keep the Law perfectly at the time He lived. He claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath, not to perpetuate it but to let those listening that He had the power to change the Sabbath law, or abrogate it if He chose. The Pharisees had corrupted the Sabbath with all the burden of does and don't. Jesus never created or reiterated the Sabbath to be in His Kingdom/Gospel about to be started at his death. Further clarification of the Gospel Message was to be completed by the Holy Spirit as shown in John 16:12-15. It now becomes apparent what Tom Norris is trying to do. Demote Paul and the other Apostles and prophets to something less than Jesus commissioned them to do!!! WOW!!!!
I told those of you reading, that the book, New Covenant Theology is more than just about the Sabbath. Issues as Tom has brought out I am sure Wells and Zespal heard all this before and write about it because others have raised the same questions. Christ actually states that no laws can be changed until all is fulfilled. What is fulfilled mean and when would it happen:
Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Did that happen or should we be looking still for that fulfillment:
Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.”
One might could argue that the New Kingdom/New Covenant did not start until Pentecost. Jesus' words on the cross, "It is finished," may speak to the fulfillment of the Old Covenant. Col 2:16-17 also speak of a fulfillment:
Colossians 2:16-17
Amplified Bible (AMP)16 Therefore let no one sit in judgment on you in matters of food and drink, or with regard to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath.
17 Such [things] are only the shadow of things that are to come, and they have only a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-03-13 3:23 pm)
Offline
The real question is for some, including Tom. Were the Ten Commandments separate from Moses Law/OT. The answer is no. Why? read:
Exodus 34:27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.
Offline
Bob, you are not being responsive to the points raised. Denial of the issues is not going to work.
How can you possibly embrace any theology that claims Jesus did not teach a doctrine of the Sabbath in the Gospels? One which greatly offended the Jews, who called for his death. How can anyone deny what is so clear and obvious in all four Gospels?
While there may be many different interpretations about what Jesus means with his reformed Sabbath doctrine, there should be no debate about the fact that he taught a doctrine of the Sabbath. Such a fact is fatal to NCT.
NCT is based in fiction, error, and delusion. Let all run from such doctrinal fraud.
Bob 2 said: Let me just interject. I don't believe NC scholars have the Sabbath as their major item that must be dealt with. But because worshipping on Sunday is the "Elephant in the Room" It does have to be dealt with.
Tom replied: NCT targets the Sabbath, (both the Sunday Lord’s day and the 7th day versions), claiming that neither exists in the NC. This major conclusion is the point of NCT.
So they have many critics who protest the claims of NCT that the church does not have a weekly Sabbath.
Bob 2 posted: Chapter 2 A brief History of Divine Revelation - Fred Zaspel; In the 2nd Covenant, and the build up to it at the cross and Pentecost, who after Christ was gone was to be the one we could turn to for truth??
Tom said: This idea that Jesus did not fully explain the Gospel Sabbath is absurd and very dangerous. The SDA’s play this same game and declare that the IJ was later revealed to mankind as truth. But all scholars have rejected this nonsense, because there is no such thing as adding to the Gospel of Christ.
Stop looking to others for the definition of the NC Sabbath. Look first and last to Jesus, - in the Gospels. He has the truth of the matter. He is Lord of the Sabbath doctrine and the head theologian of the church. To run from his view of the Sabbath is to run from Christ.
Bob 2 posted: Zaspel in his 2nd Chapter; Jesus teaching to his disciples was not complete when he died, but through his replacement, the Holy Spirit, he had provided for its continuation and completion.
Tom said: Wrong! Jesus teaches a complete Gospel and a fully articulated, NC, 7th day Sabbath. He sent out his disciples to be his “witness” for him and for his Gospel teachings.
He did not send them out to invent new doctrine in his name. Jesus’ words are the basis for all Gospel doctrine, including and especially about the Sabbath.
John 6:67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”
John 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
The Holy Spirit directs our minds, not to new teaching by others downstream, but to the Gospel Words of Christ.
Mark 13:31 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Acts 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”
What Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels, is what the church must embrace today. Period. NCT teaches error and blasphemy. They do not embrace or follow what Jesus teaches, even as they encourage others to turn away from Christ, pretending that new light about the Sabbath has been given to others after Christ went to heaven. Such views are cultic and very wrong.
Bob 2 said: Tom, you have been goading me about the Reformed Sabbath you say Jesus taught the disciples.
Tom said: I have been trying to educate you about the Gospel and point you to Christ, the source of all true doctrine. But you don’t want to learn. You think Paul is the Lord of the Sabbath, which is nothing more than an excuse to reject what Jesus teaches about the 7th day.
Regardless of your blindness, NCT has been exposed and destroyed for all to see on this site. At least for those who can admit that Jesus teaches an active and reformed, 7th day, Lord’s Day. Neither denial nor delusion can change this empirical fact.
Bob 2 said: With this text showing incomplete knowledge given to the disciples, I believe one must carefully read scripture after Christ's death.
Tom said: It is blasphemy to declare that Jesus did not fully teach the Gospel or the NC Sabbath in the Gospels. Those who look to others, outside the Gospels for their Gospel doctrine, are not following Christ.
Let all carefully and prayerfully read the Gospels and learn directly from Christ what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. What he teaches is truth for the church.
Do not run to Paul or anyone else. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath doctrine and thus all must learn it from him or not at all.
Bob 2 said: The Spirit was to be sent to "give them illumination, fuller revelation, and new revelations. This 'other helper' will bring the climactic revelation of the Son to its culmination.
Tom replied: Wrong. The Spirit guides all back to the words and teachings of Christ in the Gospels. It does not lead anyone into new or false doctrines that Christ did not teach, much less to NCT, which is promoting a wrong view of the Gospel and the Sabbath.
Bob 2 posted: Heb 2:2 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Tom replied: This passage points all back to Christ and his Gospel teachings, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Tom, you cannot argue the whole revelation of salvation was given by teaching of Jesus after reading these texts.
Tom said: The NT teaches that Christ is the complete and total revelation of God. He did not hold back on the Gospel, nor did he leave it to others to complete. Eternal Life is only for those who know Christ and embrace his Gospel teachings.
John 17:3 “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Col. 1:19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
John 14:8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
John 14:9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Those who run from the teachings of Jesus, claiming they are incomplete or not fully defined or salvific, are not going to pass the Judgment. This goes double for the NCT crowd that is so foolish as to deny Christ’s Gospel Sabbath.
Bob charged: Your Reformed Sabbath is nothing but a ruse while knowledge is still being given to the Apostles by the Holy Spirit and direct revelation from Jesus Christ.
Tom said: Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine, not Tom Norris. You need to let your mind grasp this point.
Jesus is the first apostle of God. He is the one that defined, defended, and promoted a reformed 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. This took place all during his ministry on earth as the four Gospels prove.
Jesus’ Sabbath doctrine was not an afterthought passed down to Paul after the cross.
Christ claimed that his NC Sabbath doctrine came directly from God the Father. But the Jews would not believe. They thought his Sabbath doctrine was great error and blasphemy. They rejected it, just as you are doing today. Thus you are not on the side of Christ, nor do you follow him as you pretend.
Bob 2 said: Your assumption is that Jesus in His New Covenant must have a Sabbath Day associated with it.
Tom said: All that follow Christ, must carefully follow the Gospels. No need to make any assumptions or second guess the Words of Christ. What Jesus teaches, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath, is doctrine for the church. Period.
It is Jesus who insists that the church is to have a weekly Sabbath.
Jesus is the one that took personal control over the 4th Commandment and revised it to fit his NC agenda. This is why the church has always had a weekly Lord’s Day, even if they got it wrong.
The church has always known that there is a weekly Lord’s Day, and so there still is today. But it should be on Saturday, and all should be encouraged, not to rest, but to work on this active, NC Lord’s day, as well as to meet in the name of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Tom, you have offered presuppositions to make your points. How about some scripture?
Tom replied; I have offered you the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels to prove the NC Sabbath. The fact you refuse to read these many passages, is your problem. Denial is pointless.
First off, you don’t believe Jesus when he says the Sabbath was made for all mankind. This is your problem.
Do you think you are wiser than Christ, and that you can ignore and revise his teachings at will? You are the “foolish man” that Jesus speaks about.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
NCT is built on sand. It will not hold up in a light breeze, much less in a storm.
Bob 2 said: I find no place that Jesus says the Sabbath is to continue in His Kingdom, in fact Hebrews 4 says.
Tom replied: How would you know? You seem to have never read the Gospels. You always quote the wrong passage so you can pretend NCT is true.
Is Jesus a temporary Lord? If so, who is going to replace him? Was his claim to be the “Lord of the Sabbath” only for a short time or was it forever? Is he not Eternal and forever? If so, so too is the Sabbath doctrine, which he has taken personal control.
While you claim to find “no place” where Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath, I don’t think you are looking very hard. In fact, you often run away from the Gospels, which is the source for this information. You must go to Jesus in the Gospels to learn about his NC Sabbath. This is the source. The fact you refuse, speaks volumes, even as it condemns you and NCT.
As for Heb 4, you are wrong. This passage teaches that there is a Sabbath doctrine for the Church; even as the same book goes on to encourage people to not neglect their church meetings.
Heb. 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
Heb. 10:24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Heb. 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
But again, Hebrews is not the place to learn the Gospel Sabbath. Rather, all must go to the Gospels to learn directly from Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: The Rest that Jesus is speaking of is not a day, it is a state of rest, forgiveness, which Col 2:16, 17 is talking about.
Tom said: Jesus does not teach a resting Sabbath, so why do you say otherwise? I dare you to find Jesus teaching the resting, OC Sabbath. Go ahead, show us this phantom passage?
Pay attention: When Jesus speaks of the Sabbath, he is only talking about the weekly, 7th day Sabbath of the Jews. He is not, not, not, talking about rest or forgiveness, which is why you cannot find Jesus teaching such things about his NC Sabbath.
Again, stop quoting Paul until you first learn the Sabbath from Jesus.
Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and the head theologian of the Church, not Paul. Eternal Life is only for those who follow Christ.
1Cor. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”
1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Bob2 said: Sabbath of the OC was a shadow of the saved state of the Christian.
Tom said: Wrong. The OC Sabbath was a training Sabbath for the Jews. So in that sense, it was a shadow of what was to come later in the NC. It was not the final Sabbath doctrine, which Christ would later teach the church.
The OC Sabbath Law does not represent the Gospel, which is why it was so harsh and punitive. It represents law. This is why Jesus had to revise the law based Sabbath into a NC doctrine that fits the Gospel. Thus, for those that follow Christ, they can work on the 7th day and not be guilty. This is what Jesus teaches.
Bob 2 said: Do I have a problem with you making up a Reformed Sabbath that you and only you "keep"? Nope!!!
Tom said: If I am promoting false doctrine, you should have a big problem. So once again, you are on the wrong side of the issue. Those who understand the Gospel have a duty to repudiate false doctrine.
NCT is horrible doctrine; I have a big problem with this dangerous doctrine that fails to solve the Sabbath debate and teaches people to ignore and repudiate Christ. You should also object for the same reasons.
Furthermore, the apostolic church understood and embraced the NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. So don’t think this doctrine is brand new, like NCT. The NC Sabbath of Christ dates from the 1st century. NCT dates from the 1970’s.
Bob 2 said: Accordingly, when we read of the NT Scriptures coming to us by the inspiration of the Spirit, we should not think of the Holy Spirit acting on his own. He came to further the teaching of Christ. This also is how se should think when we read of "the law of Christ" --it is not the red letters only, but the entire body of writings given by the spirit of Christ through the apostles. -- Fred Zaspel, page 39
Tom replied: Jesus teaches that the Holy Spirit directs our minds to the words of Christ. It does not direct anyone to invent new theology that is not taught by Christ. NCT is being very dishonest with this idea that others need to take over and complete the Gospel teachings of Christ. Blasphemy!
Bob 2 said: That defining of the "Law of Christ" is significant, don't you think??
Tom replied: The teachings of Christ are what all Christians must follow. This is known as the “law of Christ,” which includes his reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath. To say otherwise is blasphemy.
Bob 2 posted: In his comments on Ephesians 2:20 ("The foundation of the apostles and [NT] prophets") John Stott sums up our point well "In practical terms this means that the church is built on the New Testament Scripture. They are the church's foundation documents.
Tom said: Why not quote what Stott says about the Sabbath? This is the topic. What is the matter with you? Did you know that he rejects NCT? Why do you quote someone in support of NCT, when they do not support it?
Here is Stotts view on the 4th Commandment:
The Fourth Commandment; Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
The Jews’ sabbath and the Christians’ Sunday are a divine institution.
The fourth commandment, to set one day in seven apart, is not just a human arrangement or a social convenience.
It is God’s plan.
He made the sabbath for man, Jesus emphasized, and since he also made the man for whom he made the sabbath, he adapted it to man’s need.
Man’s body and mind need rest, and man’s spirit needs the opportunity for worship.
The sabbath is therefore a day of rest and a day of worship.
Not only are we to keep it as such ourselves, for our own good, but we are to do all we can for the common good to ensure that others do not have to work unnecessarily on this day.
So Sunday is a ‘holy’ day, set apart for God. It is the Lord’s day, not our day. It is therefore to be spent in his way, not in ours, for his worship and service and not just for our selfish pleasure.
http://www.healthy-elements.com/fourth_commandment.html
BASIC CHRISTIANITY, JOHN STOTT:
“The Jews’ Sabbath and the Christians’ Sunday are a divine institution. To set one day in seven apart is not just a human arrangement or a social convenience. It is God’s plan. He made the Sabbath for man, Jesus emphasized this in Mark 2:27-28.
•Mark 2:27-28 (NIV) Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
•Since he also made the man for whom he made the Sabbath, he adapted it to man’s need. Man’s body and mind need rest, and man’s spirit needs the opportunity for worship. The Sabbath is therefore a day of rest and a day of worship.
http://home.md.metrocast.net/~adamosbor … thcomm.htm
While I cannot agree with some of this Sunday based error, at least Stott is not denying that Jesus teaches a Sabbath for the church. He correctly rejects NCT. Stop quoting him to support your errors.
There is no escaping the Gospels. They contain the full and complete Gospel of Christ as well as the doctrine of the NC Sabbath, which is part of the Gospel and the law of Christ. Those who deny what Jesus teaches will not receive Eternal Life.
Bob 2 asked: How is all this important for the point at hand? It demonstrates the priority of the NT Scriptures. Only now, with our NT canon, do we have "all truth" (John 16:13) The era of Christ and his apostles marked a quantum leap forward in redemptive history. It brought about both a qualitative and a quantitative advance.
- Fred Zaspel page 40
Tom replied: Stop the double-talk. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, - is truth for the church. Period. NCT is utter nonsense and garbage. It is full of blasphemy, denying the words of Christ in the Gospels.
Bob 2 said: Tom, I'll be brief, NCT says the Gospel is the Gospel + nothing. The scholars you use say it is the Gospel + Sunday and argue that the Ten Commandments are still in force. GO FIGURE.
Tom replied: I use Jesus as the primary source to understand the NC Sabbath, and so too should you.
In addition, the Gospel contains many doctrines, including the NC Sabbath of Christ. Here is a thread that discusses the law and Gospel:
Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122
Bob 2 said: At least NCT is consistent and scriptural.
Tom laughed: Ha! This is too comical. NCT is dishonest, blind, and incompetent. They deny what is so clear and obvious that they are not to be trusted to tell the truth about anything. Anyone who seriously expects to receive Eternal Life had better run from this doubletalk, which is as bad as what the SDA’s do to defend their many errors.
Bob 2 said: There is no scriptural basis for a mandated Sunday or a mandated Rest Day.
Tom replied: I agree about Sunday. It is a fraud.
However, the OC does teach a “mandated Rest Day.” In fact, at least one Israelite was put to death for violating the law of the 4th commandment. So once again, you are WRONG!
Furthermore, Jesus teaches a very different NC Sabbath, not one where rest is involved, but one where works are featured, along with the meeting of the congregation to worship and praise God.
Bob 2 said: The Rest God and Jesus mean is spoken of in Heb 4. 2 Cor 3 is pretty clear about the 'the letters... engraved letters on stone".
Tom said: Jesus speaks for himself. His words do not need to be re-interpreted or second-guessed by others. If Jesus teaches that the Sabbath doctrine is all about rest, then we must find him making such a point. But he makes no such statement about the Sabbath, because there is no such doctrine in the NC as a resting Sabbath.
Those who want to understand what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath, must go to Jesus, in the Gospels, to learn. Nowhere else! What Jesus teaches is true doctrine. Period!
Bob 2 said: I have not seen you or anyone else refute this. Maybe it is hidden somewhere in the long epistles that I am beginning to think of as "diarrhea of the mind". Sorry if that is too graphic but one has to wade through a lot of your unnecessary stuff to get to your point.
Tom said: The discussion of the Gospel should not be brought down to a crude level. Let’s try to keep this discussion civilized.
I fear NCT has blinded your mind, leading you away from the Gospel teachings of Christ. You need to stop quoting others about the Sabbath and only go to Christ in the Gospels. This is what those who follow Christ will do without being told.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Bob 2 said: Why not work on that, or copy the sentence with the conclusion to your vast writing. It might help the discussion go a little more quickly. I say this, because I believe you want people to think this is a vast area of study. It really is pretty simple.
Tom said: You have lost the debate my friend, but you seem too blind to know it. Pitiful. If you don’t understand this discussion after all these years, I doubt you will ever understand. But others may profit from your confusion, so that is the hope.
Bob 2 quoted Tom who said:” Moreover, we don’t have to assume that the NC Sabbath would be as strict as the OC Sabbath. On what basis do you reach such a conclusion?”
However, Bob failed to quote the balance of the thought, which explained proved the point:
Tom said: Nonsense. Who says God is against change? This is absurd. God invented the OC with the plan in mind to change it into the NC through Christ. So God is all about planned and controlled change, a point that the Jews denied.
Moreover, we don’t have to assume that the NC Sabbath would be as strict as the OC Sabbath. On what basis do you reach such a conclusion?
The NC is full of mercy and grace, so one should assume that the NC Sabbath would also reflect such concepts. It does.
The Gospel Sabbath represents freedom from the guilt of the law, - not legalism. In fact, the weekly NC Sabbath is so light and easy that it is impossible for any believer in Christ to break the Sabbath, as there are no longer any rules against work on the 7th day.
----------------------
The NC Sabbath, while stunning the Jews, is very logical and doctrinally sound. Christ is a theological genius, and thus his NC Sabbath reflects the Gospel in a brilliant way that is amazing to behold.
The 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ is a paradigm shifting doctrine for the last church. Let all that vow to follow Christ for Eternal Life understand and embrace only what Christ teaches.
Bob 2 said: Just about every other of the 10 Commandments are expanded on, example Adultery is now Lust also, killing now becomes Hating also. Don't play so dumb. But the Sabbath he clarifies to a simple doctrine at least while he is alive.
Tom replied: NCT DENIES that Jesus teaches a NC Sabbath. While they admit he teaches about 9 of the 10 Commandments, they claim he forgot the 4th and thus it has been omitted from the “law of Christ” by design.
Such a view is madness. It is absurd and untrue. Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches a NC Sabbath in all four Gospels. To deny this is to deny Christ, who clearly addresses all 10 commandments, including and especially the 4th.
NCT stands or falls on this point. It cannot exist if Jesus teaches any doctrine about the 4th commandment.
He does.
Thus NCT is flat out wrong. It is fiction and false doctrine for the naïve and foolish.
Bob 2 said: He never declares the Sabbath the greatest Commandment or brings it up even in the Sermon on the Mount or when he visits the Disciples after His death before His Ascension or at His Ascension.
Tom said: Wow! You are not paying attention? Which of the 10 commandments did Jesus claim to be special? Which one did he claim to own, defend, and protect? All but the Sabbath?
Did Jesus declare himself to be the Lord of Murder or Adultery? No and no.
So which one of the 10 commandments does Jesus claim to be in charge as its protector and Lord?
Answer: The 4th commandment! But yet, NCT is based on the premise that the “law of Christ” includes only 9 of the 10 Commandments, minus the 4th!
How can this be? Did Jesus teach a weekly doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels? Of course he did. This fact destroys NCT and shows it to be an impossible theory of false doctrine. Its’ very premise is totally false, and so too its absurd conclusion.
Jesus, as the creator of the world, made the first Sabbath. No wonder it is so special to him. He wanted all mankind to embrace his Gospel Sabbath, not just the Jews.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
By declaring himself to be the Lord of the weekly 7th day Sabbath, Jesus shows how special this NC doctrine is to God, himself, and the church.
The fact Jesus does not promote the Sabbath in this or that passage is proof of nothing. You must go to the many passages, in all four Gospels, where he teaches and debates the Sabbath to learn the doctrine.
Don’t try to learn about the Sabbath in the wrong place. That is just silly. Or are you doing this on purpose? Go to the Gospels and find out what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. That is truth for the church.
Bob 2 said: He never explains, nor you, why the 4th Commandment is the first Appointed Festival of Leviticus 23?
Tom said: Say what? I don’t understand what you are saying or why. Jesus will explain his view of the 7th day Sabbath to everyone that seeks to follow him. Repent. And go to the Gospels and learn the Reformed Sabbath of Christ from Christ.
The Gospels contain the NC Sabbath of Christ for the church. This doctrine of the Lord’s Day has been hiding in plain site; it has only now come into view from within the SDA Community.
Bob 2 said: Also, look at His opportunity to tell the Samaritan woman at the well, that He knows WHERE everyone, Jew and Gentile, will worship, but not on what day, if it is as significant as you say.
Tom said: You don’t get to change the Gospel Story, much less criticize Christ for what he did or did not say to any person. The sheep do not correct the Shepherd; much less refute where he leads or what he teaches. Many do just this, proving they are lost and confused, following a false Christ of their own imagination.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
I am amazed at the many diversions you create, all in order to avoid dealing directly with the Sabbath teachings of Christ in the Gospels. But then again, you have to do this because NCT is BASED on the myth that Jesus teaches 90% of the 10 Commandments, minus the 4th.
The moment you admit Jesus teaches a doctrine about the Sabbath in the Gospels, NCT self-destructs.
So you keep pretending this NCT myth is true, even though anyone can read the Gospels and discover otherwise.
Jesus does address the 4th commandment in specific theological detail, over and over in the Gospels. Such a fact, regardless what he teaches about the Sabbath, is fatal for NCT.
The very fact Jesus teaches about the Sabbath exposes the premise and the conclusion of NCT as utter nonsense and anti-Christ error.
Jesus would be insulted and outraged with NCT. So too should anyone that has ever read the Gospels. In the PAJ, he demands that all repent of NCT, as well as the many other false views of the Gospel and the Sabbath. Repent and follow the Gospel!
Bob 2 said: Most of NCT opponents realize that it isn't just about the Sabbath, it is about the restructuring of Covenant Theology to the New Covenant Theology. That job is apt to have some parishioners get up and walk out with their substantial donations.
Tom replied: First off, if you read the Preface, the authors admit why they wrote this book; it was in response to their critics who charged them with antinomianism for their disregard of the Sabbath. (The fact you don’t know this shows you are not paying attention.)
NCT is all about the Sabbath, and so too this latest book, which is nothing but religious propaganda; a defense for false doctrine. This is why the critics started screaming, because NCT refutes the (Sunday) Sabbath.
Stop pretending. NCT represents a strange and false view of the Sabbath, and most everyone knows this fact by now.
Second, the Book index shows that the Sabbath is mentioned more then any other doctrine or topic.
Third, at the conclusion of the book, there are two chapters about the Sabbath; #13, The Sabbath, A Test Case and #14, The Sabbath: Some Critical Texts in Paul.
Too bad they could not write a chapter called; "The Sabbath: What Jesus Teaches in the Gospels."
Fourth, an article about John Bunyan and the Sabbath is also in the appendix.
And I don’t have the book. But I could see all this from the Amazon website. No doubt the book is full of legions of references about the Sabbath in the other chapters.
http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/1928965113
Bob 2 said: Can you imagine the Sunday morning that one of the preachers say he now is going to teach New Covenant Theology and gets to the place where he says the 10 Commandment will no longer be the center of our behaviorial standards, but Christ's Law that you have to study to have it revealed to you, Christ's life, the Apostles and what was revealed to them, ....
Tom said: No one would care except the SDA’s. Few groups are as law based as the SDA’s. They value the 10 Commandments above the teachings of Christ, which is why they, like the Jews, rejected his working, NC Sabbath. So yes, the SDA’s would be upset to hear genuine NC theology, but few others would object.
Adventist Reform advocates the development of NC Adventism, which is a Gospel based extension of OC Adventism, complete with an improved view of eschatology and the correct doctrine of the 7th day, Lord’s Day.
First off, NCT is correct to teach that there is no such doctrine as a Sunday Lord’s Day in the NT. So too are the SDA’s who made this same point long before NCT was invented. (No doubt NCT picked up this knowledge from the SDA’s.)
Secondly, the teachings of Christ should be at the center of the church anyway. Why should that be shocking to any Christian, (except the SDA’s)?
However, Jesus teaches a 7th day Sabbath that is not based on the law, and in fact gives an exemption from sin for violating the 4th commandment.
So why is Jesus’ Reformed Sabbath being ignored by so many?
Why do so many Christians refuse to comprehend and follow what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath?
Bob 2 said: I can see an empty church by the time he drops the "bomb" of New Covenant Theology!
Tom said: You make no sense. NCT has nothing to offer but sand. It is not a credible system of theology. It has no eschatology or pedigree. It is worthless, arrogant double-talk that leads people away from the genuine Christ of the Gospels.
Bob 2 said: Again this is not just a Sabbath issue, as you tend to make it. That shows you do not have a handle on it, just that it goes against your Reformed Sabbath, and as much as you have written, I see your face paling as you realize the writing you will have to do to explain yourself.
Tom said: I already proved that the book you are promoting was written to defend NCT from the critics who charged antinomianism. The authors have admitted such in their Preface. Thus this is a “Sabbath issue.” They authors are trying to prove that their strange view of the Sabbath is correct. THIS is what is going on. Don’t be so dull.
I don’t like NCT because it attacks the Sabbath of Christ. So yes, it goes against the Reformed Sabbath of Jesus that is featured and promoted in all four Gospels. That is why it is wrong and why it must be repudiated.
Bob 2 said: The most startling thing you do is quote Sunday keepers saying there is no change with the NC. Very telling.
Tom said: The Sunday keepers are part of this discussion. They have some strong views about the Sabbath, some of which are correct. Just as some points made by the NCT crowd is also correct, and so too the SDA’s.
Those who embrace Sunday as the Lord’s Day, which is the vast majority, do so because they acknowledge there is a change in the Covenants. Sunday was a big change from the 7th day, and the early church assumed such a change in the day was part of the change in Covenants.
What they should have done was better understand the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ and embrace this NC, active, doctrine as the Lord’s Day. But they did not. So this correction must still take place.
Bob said: Tom, the book New Covenant Theology has a Table of Contents and shows it is bigger than just the Sabbath and Law:
Tom said: Why not stop playing games and bring us the two chapters about the Sabbath.
We don’t need to go through an indoctrination process before we can understand what is being said about the Sabbath. Just tell us straight out what they conclude about the Sabbath.
Is there a weekly Sabbath for the church in the NC? And if so, how is it defined?
No doubt the answer will be found in:
Chapter 13, The Sabbath, A Test Case,
Chapter 14, The Sabbath: Some Critical Texts in Paul.
Why not go to those chapters and see if you can tell us in plain English:
Is there a weekly Sabbath for the church in the NC? And if so, how is it defined?
Bob 2 said: So Tom there is a lot more to the book than the Sabbath and I don't plan to be goaded to get to your favorite subject of a non-biblical Reformed Sabbath. It ain't in the rest of the book or in the Bible.
Tom replied: First, NCT is all about the Sabbath, and so too the book you are reviewing on this thread. And so too this discussion, which you started.
Second, the Reformed Sabbath of Christ can be easily found in all four Gospels. Such a fact cannot be denied.
Bob 2 said: If inspiration stops with Christ's Ascension, you are missing out on a lot the Bible has to offer. I studied in our schools and I think Bible is taught up through John, and jumps to Revelation. Paul is treated as you are treating him. IMO.
Tom replied: The Gospel was fully preached by Jesus Christ and made part of the NT record. Part of Jesus' Gospel preaching was his reformed, 7th day Sabbath. What he teaches about this doctrine is what the church, including Paul, must follow.
If anyone wants to know what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, they must first go to the Gospels and learn from Christ. He has much to teach about the Sabbath, far, far more the Paul ever wrote.
Bob quoted Tom, who said:
“Here is where the NCT people become dishonest with the Word. They claim Jesus has the most authority, but yet, they overlook what he teaches about the Sabbath so that they can run to Paul to hear what they want. This is no way to understand what Jesus teaches.”
Bob replied:
The point being made is from Jesus himself as He ends His ministry on this earth. Note this text:
John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom this gets to your point, all that needs to be said on a given subject, including the Sabbath, had not been said by Him when he Ascended.
Tom said: Wrong. The passage does not teach that Jesus is going to give Paul a different view of the Sabbath from what he taught during his ministry.
This passage does zero to discount or nullify what Jesus teaches in the four Gospels about the Sabbath. Why would you think so?
We have the genuine words of Christ about the Sabbath. Over and over he teaches a unique view of the 7th day Sabbath for all to see. How can you join a group that denies Jesus teaches a doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath? Have you lost your mind? Can’t you read? Jesus’ favorite doctrine was the NC Sabbath!
Bob 2 said: The Holy Spirit would speak through men Jesus had appointed. To say Paul's writings are not inspired will get you in a lot of trouble, since most of the NT is Paul speaking.
Tom said: I never said Paul was not “inspired.” I said Paul is not the author of, or the Lord of, the Sabbath. That is the role of Christ, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Gospel Sabbath, which is for all mankind. (Jesus made the Sabbath when he made the world.)
Paul does not conflict with Jesus view of the Sabbath. If you think so, then you don’t understand what Jesus or Paul teach about the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: This maybe is a point that is very telling. We, you and I, will always be at odds if we don't agree on the Holy Spirit speaking truth through appointed men after Christ's ascension.
Tom said: The only telling point is that NCT REFUSES to admit that Jesus teaches a clear and articulated doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels.
NCT denies Christ. They ignore Christ and pretend he has nothing to say about the 4th commandment, so they can run to Paul and try to remove the Sabbath doctrine from the church.
Such behavior is anti-Christ, anti-Gospel, and anti- Word. It is an outrageous and dishonest theory, unfit for those who follow Christ. I don’t know how any of this crowd can sleep at night. It is as bad as the awful SDA doctrine of the Investigative Judgment that the SDA’s pretend is true, when everyone knows better.
Bob 2 said: I told you that the book was more than just about the Sabbath. It is also about how we view inspiration and the Holy Spirit's work.
Tom said: Your were wrong. The authors have already admitted that this is an apologetic to defend their view of the Sabbath. You should not speak so much for others, because you are having a hard time grasping what people think.
The only reason the authors speak about the Holy Spirit is so they can claim some justification for their false view of the Sabbath from Paul. It is a ruse. The HS points us back to the words of Christ, who has already placed on the record the correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath.
The HS points us to the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Period.
Bob 2 said: Tom you keep pushing on the Sabbath, assuming that that is the critical point to this book and yet it has caught you in a fallacy about the Holy Spirit. Are Jesus words the only inspired words we are to accept as doctrine? Impossible!!!!!
Tom said: So you don’t like the words of Jesus? You want to find others who have the “inspiration” you seek? Those who speak like this are not Christian.
Pay close attention: Only the Words of Jesus can give you Eternal Life. No one else. If you continue to deny what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, and continue to repudiate his Gospel views, you are a lost man. NCT will not save you, and neither will Paul.
It will be only you and Jesus in the Judgment day. You will claim you should have Eternal Life. But Jesus will respond:
Why did you choose darkness and not Gospel light?
Why did you reject my Sabbath “sayings” and “not keep them”?
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Did you not read in the Gospels how God the Father told me teach this new view of the 7th day Sabbath?
Eternal Life is only for those who believe and follow Christ. Not for those who deny and repudiate what he teaches.
John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 12:49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
John 12:50 “I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
Bob said: I haven't seen you present "the correct solution" other than to say work is OK on the Sabbath.
Tom said: If you want to see Gospel light, you must be able to admit you are wrong and repent. Otherwise, you will never be able to judge the Gospel correctly. Listen to the words of Christ; they were spoken in the context of his Reformed Sabbath, which the Jews would not accept.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Adventist Reform stands for the completion of Sabbath Reform. The active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ is the genuine Lord’s Day for the church. Those that want to follow the genuine Christ will understand and embrace truth.
Bob 2 asked: That's enlightening. Amongst your good works do you include, is it OK to shop for groceries for a sick old lady, and fill your car with gas on your way to her house.
Tom replied: Yes, it is OK to shop or even work at the store on the 7th day.
It is also OK to fill gas or work at the Gas Station on the Lord’s day. It is also OK to light fires and cook, or travel, or do all the things that the Jewish Sabbath prohibited.
In other words, the Sabbath of Christ has NO rules against work or play, or cooking, or travel, moving furniture, healing harvesting, etc, etc. NONE!
Bob 2 asked: What other rules are contained in "the correct solution"?
Tom said: It is the lack of rules that is stunning about the NC Sabbath. The OC Sabbath doctrine is full of rules and regulations enforced by the death penalty. The NC Sabbath is the opposite. No rules against work, everyone is allowed to work without guilt from the 4th commandment.
The OC Sabbath had no freedom from the law, except for the Levites. However, the NC gives Freedom to all, without distinction, because all are Priests of God. The Sabbath is Freedom Day, a day where the law is no longer in charge because grace prevails for those who follow Christ.
Bob asked: If it is OK to buy the groceries, is it OK for me to run my Grocery store on Saturday???
Tom said: Absolutely!
Bob 2 asked: Can I drive a gas truck to refill the gas station you get your tank of gas from???
Tom replied: Yes indeed!
Moreover, if you were a Roman Soldier who has accepted Christ, you are allowed to carry out your orders and work, march, fight, clean your weapons, dig a ditch, etc on the Sabbath. There is no longer any sin or guilt associated with working on the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. THIS is what Christ teaches and so too Peter and Paul.
This is why Roman soldiers became the first Gentile converts. There were no Sabbath issues for them or anyone in the NC. Work on the 7th day was no longer sinful for those who followed Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: Jesus simplified this by fulfilling the Sabbath rest at the cross. He can give you rest by FORGIVING you. What a simple answer!!!
Tom said: Jesus teaches a very clear doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church. And it has nothing to do with “fulfilling the Sabbath rest at the cross.” How is torture associated with “rest”? This makes no sense.
There is no such doctrine or concept as a “fulfilled Sabbath by Christ.” This is just doubletalk and amateur nonsense. Jesus does not teach a resting Sabbath. Which point is fatal point for NCT.
Nor does Jesus teachings about forgiveness in any way to nullify or repudiate what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. Why would you think such a thing?
Answer: Wishful thinking. NCT requires such myths to exist. Remove the myths and NCT cannot stand.
Bob 2 said: I have asked before who else believes as you do on the Reformed Sabbath.
Tom said: Jesus. Jesus is the primary source of the Reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. He believes it, and he taught his disciples to also believe and follow him in this new view of the 7th day Sabbath. They wrote it down in the Gospels, and thus we have Jesus’ Sabbath doctrine as part of the Gospel Record.
Who else needs to believe what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in order for you to believe? Paul certainly supports his view, and so too Peter. In fact, most Gentiles would not have joined the church if they had to embrace the OC, non-working Sabbath of the Jews. No Roman soldier would be able to be a Christian without first renouncing his State position as a soldier.
The fact that you don’t understand the early history of the church complicates matters for you. The apostolic church followed Jesus’ 7th day, active Sabbath. This is why the Gentiles could so easily join.
Many scholars know these facts, and Dr. Ford knows this history best of all. I suggest that you read his material about the 7th day Sabbath of Christ. He rejects NCT and so too should everyone.
Bob 2 said: So, Tom, you were the only human to get it right???? Just you and Jesus?? You mock what He said with that line. Who else has published what you are saying is truth. What congregation has congregates that can state it exactly as you have?
Tom replied: You misunderstand. The apostolic church understood and embraced the reformed, 7th day Lord’s Day. They did not embrace Sunday or what the SDA’s teach.
Don’t shoot the messenger. You act like I invented the NC Reformed Sabbath. I did not, and neither did Dr. Ford. This doctrine dates from the 1st century, Jesus is the its author and champion.
The apostolic church embraced the correct, active, and reformed Lord’s day. Which is why we see Paul preaching to the town on the Sabbath, and yet the people were free to go back to work, or cook, or do whatever, without any condemnation or OC instruction from Paul.
In other words, Paul understood how the Lord’s Day is to be observed. He was not promoting the OC Sabbath, but the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Bob 2 said: These two paragraphs at the end of Chapter 2 of New Covenant Theology are important:
Bob quoted: This is a most significant promise so far as we are concerned today. A very important line of questions asked at some time by most Christians is,
"How can we know the NT is the word of God? How can we be sure? How can we know it is truth? How can we know it is accurate? Must we rely on an inner witness? Must we rely on the 'self attesting' nature of it?"
No, as helpful as these are. We have something much better. We have Christ's own word on it. He chose and commissioned these men for exactly this purpose. He invested them with his own authority and sent them His Spirit to teach and guide them infallibly. The apostles' witness to Christ and His and His teaching and work will not be there own invention nor mere reliance on their own memory. No. It is the very word of the Son himself. Such is our Lord's promise.
Accordingly, when we read of the NT Scriptures coming to us by the inspiration of the Spirit, we should not think of the Holy Spirit acting on his own. He came to further the teaching of Christ. This also is how we should think when we read of "the law of Christ"---it is not the red letters only, but the entire body of writings given by the Spirit of Christ through the apostles.
Tom said: I agree with the above. Moreover, the Law of Christ INCLUDES Jesus Reformed Sabbath teachings. Those who claim otherwise, like NCT, are promoting error.
Bob 2 said: Tom, this text is one that should be read seriously if you wish to demote Paul and the apostles, from the position given them by Jesus Himself with the Holy Spirit:
1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.
Tom replied: When the passage says they “received” the word of God, it means the Gospel of Christ, which includes his NC, 7th day Sabbath.
This passage in no way nullifies, mutes, or removes, what Christ teaches about the Sabbath. The very idea that you want to run away from Christ and from what he teaches about the Sabbath is heresy. Why run from Christ? Why deny what he teaches about the 7th day?
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
NCT leads people away from Christ and away from his amazing doctrine of the 7th day, Lord’s Day. Let all beware of following a false and worthless Gospel.
Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Matt. 24:11 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Let all repudiate NCT as anti-Christ doctrine. It cannot be defended because it is based on myth and clear error.
Jesus has much to say about the 7th day Sabbath and it is time for the church to pay close attention. Their Eternal Life depends on it.
Tom Norris for the genuine, 7th day Lord’s Day
Offline
Tom, I plan to continue my book report and when you accurately portray what I say, I will respond, but not until (See responses on your thread). I have quoted Scripture clearly to you where you make me out to be a liar. Until you stop the practice, I wish you would stay on the thread you are moderator of. You will not get a response here until I get an apology or consideration of what I clearly have presented.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-03-13 10:08 pm)
Offline
Tom Wells in Chapter 3, Description of the New Covenant (Part 1) introduces his chapter this way:
To understand the subject of the New Covenant we will need to grasp two things. First we will have to have a clear idea of what the phrase "New Covenant" refers to. Following that we will want to see, in a rough way, the points at which a "New Covenant Theology" comes into tension with other understandings of the same phrase [New Covenant]along with a brief defense of each of these points.
...
One thing that all parties in the discussion agree upon is this essential element:there is something called "the New Covenant" spoken of in both the OT and the NT (e.g., Jer. 31:31ff.;2Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:8). What it is and when it prevails has been a point of endless controversy.
The century has witnessed the following variations among serious scholars.
Dispensationalists - some formerly held that there is not one, but two New Covenants in Scripture, one for the Jews and the other for the NT church. This understanding, however, has been almost completely abandoned in recent years so we will not need to pursue it. Other dispenstionalists have held that the New Covenant is still future. This position is also eroding among dispensationalists although some still hold it.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-04-13 1:57 am)
Offline
More pertinent to today's discussion is the view that the New Covenant is simply an extension of an earlier covenant. In Reformed (not Norris' Reformed but Presbyterian-like) circles one often hears of "one covenant with two administrations," language that reflects the Westminister Confession (chap. 7, se. 6) that says, "This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the Gospel...." Behind this language lies the idea that in redeeming fallen , God has made a single covenant, "the Covenant of Grace."Arrangements between God and man that come later than the Fall must be thought of as phases ("administrations") of this single covenant. In the words of the Confessions (cha. 7, sec.6),"There is not, therefore, two covenants of grace differing in substance, but one and the same under various dispensations."
This language underscores an important truth: God has a single purpose of redemption running throughout history. History proceeds toward a single goal of a redeemed world populated by a redeemed people. More than that, this goal comes to fruition by a single Redeemer, which means that in some important sense all Scripture is about him and his work(Luke 24:27; John 5:46). These truths are of paramount importance and we must never lose our grasp on them. Nevertheless, it now seems clear that a mistake has been made in speaking of this purpose as "the Covenant of Grace." We may agree in asserting the unity of God's purpose through the ages, but the selection of the word "covenant" to describe this unity has lent itself to important misunderstandings.
The reason for this is simple: in the NT the word "covenant" is almost always used to assert discontinuity.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-04-13 1:59 am)
Offline
There is a strong suggestion that Wells puts forward, no such covenant (the Covenant of Grace) is referred to in the NT. But, that the NT leaves no doubt there is indeed a "new covenant".
To be continued
Last edited by bob_2 (07-04-13 1:55 am)
Offline
That's where we pick up to close Chapter 3. There was an OC and it is the whole of the OT with the 10 Commandments as the sign that the Jews were His chosen people if they obey. Covenant usually indicates discontinuity, if one follows another. As Heb 8:13 an 1 Cor 3:7 indicates, the Old Covenant has past away and is obsolete.
The church did not exist in the OT. Why? Christ was the cornerstone and Peter was the Rock upon who the church would be built.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
Note that he broke down the barrier to make all believers one. What was that barrier? Circumcision and the Sabbath and the rest of the OT/OC. With in the Law, all of the Law of the OT, circumcision would not be demanded as pointed out to believers in Acts 15. The Sabbath in Col 2:16-17 makes it clear that Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Sabbath in His flesh:
"Eph 2:16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility".and became "our peace".
The Church, again, did not exist in the OT, but it is created by Jesus when he comes and baptises the members by His Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
The New Covenant/Church, then, is the bond between God and man, established by the blood (i.e. sacrificial death) of Christ, under which the church of Jesus Christ has come into being.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-09-13 2:08 am)
Offline
Two Testaments, Two Covenants. The word Covenant has discontinuity in it's meaning where their was one before. Was the Old Covenant truly obsolete as Hebrews 8:13 says? Was the New Covenant totally new or a reiteration of the Old???
Dispensationalist Theology - deny all connection between the two, Old and New
Covenant Theology - have tended toward an identification of the two as one body.
Offline
The Land Promise to Israel in the OC was given to Joshua and fulfilled:
Joshua 21:43 So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. 44 The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hands. 45 Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.
But what about all the other promises beside the land promise. We must read the Abrahamic Promise similarly:
Hebrews 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
This lead Covenant Theologians link Christianity with Israel. Even today the US has a close link to Israel. This though is the ethnic Israel. However the Christian Church and the remnant of the Jews that believed in the Messiah are part of the Church.
Romans 11 compares the Christian Church to an Olive Tree. Note:
Instead, the olive tree is the church of God's effectually called elect, formed after the death of the Lord Jesus, out of the believers of the Jewish nation (past and present) and believing Gentiles. -- New Covenant Theology, page 65
Last edited by bob_2 (07-10-13 1:18 am)
Offline
New Covenant Theology is quite different relative to Law than Covenant Theology. CT believe the OC was divided into civil, ceremonial and moral. Covenant Theology does this to be able to state that the Moral Law, or the 10 Commandments has continuity while the civil and ceremonial have discontinuity and stop at the cross. New Covenant Theology believes that the OT represents the whole OC and all has discontinuity.
Some evangelical churches play word games, that we are no longer under law but grace. This gives the impression that their acts after the institution of the New Covenant are covered by Jesus blood. This is true if they maintain the relationship with Jesus Christ. (Read Romans 11, Broken branches) But one thing that struck me with New Covenant Theology is they ask, "What law now governs the New Covenant community, the church of Jesus Christ?"
The next paragraphs are from the book directly:
First, we must be absolutely clear that the category "law" is indispensable to the church. Much confusion has existed over what is intended by it, but the category itself is basic to the relation between God and man.
Second, we must recognize that the NT speaks of "the Law of Christ" as the rule of the Christian (1 Cor. 9:21; Gal 6:2 ) whatever is intended by this phrase.
Third we must also acknowledge that the NT offers us little exposition that directly explains what this law is. Nevertheless, we have the materials for determining the question in what I have earlier called "the logical priority of the Lord Jesus". -- Page 66-67 New Covenant Theology
Last edited by bob_2 (07-09-13 4:46 am)
Offline
The New Testament is not clear in detail what is the "Law of Christ" yet we recognize from the Sermon on the Mount and His simplifying Law with the Golden Rule, "do unto other as you would like done to you".
Under the New Covenant however, it undergoes a subtle variation in that Christ sets himself forward as the comprehensive Lord, a position that we understand can only be accorded to God himself. The justification for this remarkable claim by Christ is twofold: first, by very nature he was God and, second, his person as the God-man was awarded the full title "Lord" (i.e. Yahweh) upon the completion of his mission in this world (Phil. 2:9-11). We should not be surprised, then, to hear him say, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me"(Matt. 28:18). While we understand that even such "absolute" authority has a single limitation (1 Cor 15:27), there can be no appeal for us from the rule of Jesus Christ.
Certain things follow from this.
First, for us, there is no competing authority in matters that pertain to God. This nothing logically prior to Jesus Christ to which we must look for the regulation of our lives. (The word "logically"is very important here, signifying the necessity of coming to the Lord Jesus first for instruction, even if he quotes from law that comes from a time earlier than the time of His public ministry.) The authority of Jesus is such that this is true for all men since the ascension of Christ.
Second, what is true of all men is especially true for Christians who have consciously owned the Lordship of Christ as the organizing fact around which their lives must revolve. That means they have no moral and ethical allegiance to anything, including the OT and its law, that is logically prior to Jesus Christ. That is what absolute authority claims and that is what absolute authority concedes. Whatever other authorities may exist in this world (and their are many others) each must be submitted to only out of the understanding Jesus Christ lays such submission upon believers in him. Any other acceptance of a prior claim is illegitimate. This is to say no more and no less than what is implicit in the confession, "Jesus Christ is Lord."
The Puritans said:
Because of easily-recognizable differences between the relation of men to the Law before and after faith [Jesus], it became customary to speak of the believer as related to the Law "in the hands of Christ."
Origen illustrated the same point:
We who belong to the catholic church [universal] do not reject the Law of Moses , but we welcome it, provided it is Jesus who reads it to us, so that as He reads we may lay hold of His understanding and interpretation --- Origens
....most Christians recognize that the OT remains the inspired word of God while at the same time acknowledging that the great mass of its legislation is no longer directly applicable to the practice of believers today. -- Page 69 of New Covenant Theology
Last edited by bob_2 (07-18-13 4:15 am)
Offline
....But most Christians recognize that the OT remains the inspired word of God while at the same time acknowledging that the great mass of its legislation is no longer directly applicable to the practice of believers today.
It is this priority of the Lord that is so evident in the Sermon on the Mount. There is no consensus among scholars on the precise aim of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 5:21-37 where He quotes OT law (or in one case, what apparently purported to be OT law, Matthew 5:43b) and proceeds to comment on it. Clearly he is not abolishing the law (Matthew 5:17-19), but is he modifying it, explaining it more fully and/or delivering it from the perversions of the traditions to which the Pharisees were heirs? As interesting and important as this question is, however, it does not yet come to the central issue. Whatever Jesus is doing, He is doing as the final authority on the subject, , and he is doing what no other contemporary Jew would dare to do. His repeated "But I tell you" (Matthew 5:22 28, 32, 34, 39 , 44) reveals the consciousness of an authority that transcends the work of all other interpreters. ....
The sovereignty with which Jesus speaks is so absolute that His fulfillment of the law seems to carry with it the invalidation of the law of Moses. pages 69-70, New Covenant Theology
The individuals that have put together the points of New Covenant Theology, insist that the law, which as you read above and the Sermon on the Mount you realize Jesus is changing the OT law and we must continue to read to see His objective and the rule of the way of the Christian, Christ's Law. 1 Corinthians 9:21
Last edited by bob_2 (07-18-13 4:19 am)
Offline
We come now to the final critical question: how does the priority of Jesus Christ work out in practice?
To answer this question we must first address a number of impressions often held in connection with the Mosaic law. First, when many speak of "the Law" they have in mind only the Decalogue or Ten Commandments. That meaning has an honored history in the church, but as far as I can see the Scripture does not use the phrase in that way. If it does, it is a rare and uncharacteristic use. Second, the idea that "the Law"is the Ten Commandments is often associated with another idea, the conviction that, generally speaking, the NT regulations and rites that parallel those in the OT are simpler under the New Covenant. Since the Decalogue is itself a relatively short statement, when these two ideas are combined they produce a demand that if the Decalogue is to be replaced, some very compact summary must be given for the rule of Christ.
We find a naive answer to this search for compactness in the popular notion that all God asks of us is that "we do as we would be done by," i.e., the "Golden Rule". ... All of these solutions founder on the same fact: the NT contains a multitude of commands and demands, the very things that we normally call "law".
Can these rules and regulations at least on their moral side, be reduced to the Ten Commandments? Or to put it another way, is "the law of Christ" identical to the Decalogue?There are important reasons for answering these questions negatively.
First, the highest and best revelation of God is found in the Lord Jesus himself. Yet it is beyond dispute that the display of the excellencies of God found in Jesus Christ is primarily the display of his moral excellencies. Can we really believe that all of this is fully anticipated in the Decalogue? Second, only on the assumption that the Ten Commandments explicitly or implicitly contain all of this same revelation can we think of putting them on the same level as the Lord Jesus himself.
I quoted the above directly from the content of the book that is being reviewed, because it is important to get the nuances exactly as the author desires them.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-22-13 10:58 pm)
Offline
To make assumptions the simple Ten Commandments are meant in NT verses, note the following verses given in the Presbyterian Larger Catechism offering just these three commandments as their assumption:
Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
In the Presbyterian Shorter Catechism, the scholars that drafted it took the fifth Commandment to this:
Q.64. What is required of the Fifth commandment?
A. The fifth commandment requireth the the preserving the honor, and performing the duties, belonging to everyone in their several places and relations as superiors, inferiors or equals.
Q.65. What is forbidden in the fifth commandment?
A. The fifth commandment forbiddeth the neglecting of, or doing anything against, the honor and duty which belongeth to everyone in their several places and relations....This is, surely, much too narrow a base from which to draw such a comprehensive conclusion. Further than that , assuming that Matthew 19:17,18,19 contains the best evidence for this opinion, we must note that it was not available to OT believers at all.
However, there was this separate from the Ten Commandments:
Leviticus 19:18 “‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-22-13 11:00 pm)
Offline
...In the Mosaic law the penalty for breaking the fifth commandment in some cases was death (Exod.21:15, 17;Lev. 20:9; 21:9; Deut. 21:18-21.) It is difficult to see on what grounds this penalty could be avoided among all the other relations that are thought to be in this text. If one argues that the case laws make this distinction, one comes very close, on this assumption , to setting the case laws against the fifth commandment itself.
The Ten Commandments, then, could not have functioned as a compact summary of all moral law. And they never did among the Jews. In a book written for the direct purpose of insisting that Christians must keep the Ten Commandments, we read:
The Jews did not divide up their Law into moral, judicial and ceremonial preceps. For them it was a whole, covering God's revealed will for all the areas of their common life . The Christians have had to divide it... ---Vidler, Strange Work, 54.
As soon as we see that the demand for a compact rule of life is neither implied nor explicitly found in the Scriptures we are prepared to receive from Christ a total law based on the New Covenant documents. No slogan, even of Scripture, can contain it, but it is clearly there, as it must be if Jesus Christ is Lord.
---pages 74-75 New Covenant Theology
Last edited by bob_2 (07-22-13 11:11 pm)
Offline