Adventist Christmas Trees

don · 12-24-09 11:13 am

Adventist Christmas Trees I ran across this interesting account dated way back in 1879:<blockquote>The Christmas Tree. ACCORDING to the recommendation of the General Conference Committee in the Supplement to REVIEW, Vol. 52, No. 25, that all the churches should provide a Christmas tree, and suspend thereon their gifts for the cause, the Battle Greek church entered with alacrity into the work. A beautiful tree was donated by a sister in the church, and appropriate exercises were prepared for the evening of Dec. 25. The tree well loaded down with its gifts made a beautiful appearance. The exercises consisted chiefly in the singing of some choice and select hymns and pieces of music, short addresses by different ones, and a general exercise of repeating the promises of Scripture applicable to the various ages and conditions of life. The gathering of the fruit of the tree showed quite a bountiful yield. With the one hundred dollars each from Bro. and Sr. White, there were gathered seven hundred and thirty dollars and two cents ($730.02) in cash, besides some jewelry and keepsakes which wore heartily devoted to the cause. This, with the exception of a little devoted to foreign missions, was all for the Tabernacle. The house was crowded, the occasion was a very pleasant one throughout, and was considered a very successful effort. Review and Herald, January 2, 1879, page 5 <a href="http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18790102-V53-01__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=5" target=_top>http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH1879010 2-V53-01__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=5</a> DjVu Browser Plugin needed to view this: see **<a href="http://www.adventistarchives.org/GetDjVuControl.asp" target="_blank">HERE</a>** </blockquote>Some Comments<ol><li>This was for the benefit of the Tabernacle's expenses, mainly. <LI>Notice that one third of the money raised came from James and Ellen White. <LI>This practice of a church Christmas tree comes from an action of the General Conference Committee. <LI>This seems to be one of the first Adventist endorsements of Christmas Trees for fund-raising. Later, the Christmas Tree fund-raising focus helps in Northern Europe especially. <LI>If "mainstream" Adventism rallied around the Christmas Tree for fund-raising, from where, and when, did this idea that Christmas is not to be celebrated? I suggest that many people, including some Adventists, have a natural tendency to be severe. I have not found very much evidence that the "mainstream" Adventists of 1878 were that severe. </li></ol>

cadge · 12-24-09 5:24 pm

Well, as long as it was for the temple. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to put on a Bar-B-Q too, as long as the meat was only sold and not eaten by the church members. Are these the same Whites that had the wrong Gospel until 1888 and their followers are still having problems with it? Didn't Paul say something about people preaching the wrong Gospel as having another Jesus and another spirit and that they were cursed? If they didn't have the same Spirit that Paul was partaker of, then whose spirit was it for forty some odd years? If you can worship on Tammuz's day, the day the Catholic church agreed to, then what's the big deal about criticizing the days others worship on, especially when Paul told you in Romans 14 not to judge others on which day they keep or what they eat?

don · 12-25-09 3:15 am

1896, A. T, Jones on Christmas American Sentinel, December 24, 1896, page one.<blockquote>As this number of our paper is dated the day before Christmas, it might be expected that we should have something to say about the institution. If such be the expectation of any, they shall not be disappointed. We are willing to contribute what we may for the benefit of those who would celebrate this universal festival. We say this universal festival, not because, we would be understood to say that Christianity is universal; but because the period now referred to as the "Christmas season" has been celebrated from time immemorial by all nations. That which is now particularly celebrated As the Christmas, is the remains of the ancient festival whose celebration covered a longer period of time. This festival season was celebrated in honor of the Sun; and December 25 especially in gladness and rejoicing at his annual birth and the beginning of his return victorious over the powers of darkness or night. In the reigns of Domitian and Trajan, Rome formally adopted from Persia the feast of the Persian sun-god Mithras, with December 25 as the birth festival of the unconquered sun—Natales invicti Solis. In the Louvre at Paris is the original of a mythological representation of this, which was found at Rome in a vault under the Capitol. It is entitled "Mithra Sacrificing the Bull." The central object of the piece is Mithra in a cavern sacrificing a bull. As already stated, Mithra represented the Sun; the bull was the symbol of the powers of night. The blood of the bull was to impart the power of regeneration. At the right hand in the cavern stands the Genius of Night with his torch turned down, extinguished. At the left stands the Genius of Day, with his torch held up, aflame. An inscription on the body of the bull reads: ' 'To Mithra, the invincible Sun-God." The piece is intended to rep- resent the victory of the Sun over the powers of darkness. This sacrifice was made annually at the winter solstice—the period that is now Christmas-time. Thus this annual festival was an established thing in the State and City of Rome. About the middle of the fourth century, the church of Rome adopted this festival, making the birthday of the Sun, December 25, the birthday of Christ. And in a few years the celebration of this festival of the sun had spread among the churches through- out the whole empires-east as well as west. In one of the homilies of Chrysostom, sup- posed to have been delivered on this festival day in A. D. 386, he expresses his own pleasure and "congratulates the people upon the progress made, through their zeal in establishing this new festival, which they had borrowed from the Western Church"; and "seems to speak of it as a custom imported from the West within ten years." The perverse- minded clergy readily sanctioned the practice and relieved all doubts, with the assurance that the festival which had been formerly celebrated as the birth of the real sun was a type of the festival of the birth of Christ, the Sun of Righteousness. And thus was established the Church festival of Christmas. There are other items connected with the celebration of the day, whose origin and meaning are also worth mentioning. One of these is the Christmas tree. Just as the day itself and its celebration were adopted from pagan Rome, the use of the tree was adopted from the pagan Germans. And just as the day is a relic of sun-worship, so also is the tree. In The Ladies Home Journal, for December, Mrs. Lyman Abbott says of "The Christmas Tree": "A German friend tells me that the true Christmas tree is 'not a mere show, decorated for the momentary amusement of children. It is a sublime symbol of the soul life of the Germanic people for a thousand years.' . . . The tree itself 'is the celestial sun-tree.' " Another item is the decoration of the houses and churches with vines, branches of trees, etc. This is derived from the sun- worshiping Druids of Britain. An early English writer says that the "trimmyng of the temples with hangyngs, flowers, boughs, and garlands, was taken of the heathen people, whiche decked their idols and houses with suche array." The ivy particularly was used in honor of Bacchus. Thus it is that Christmas day, the celebration of the day, and the appurtenances thereto, are all heathen and only relics of sun-worship. <a href="http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/AmSn/AmSn1896-V11-51/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=1" target="_blank">http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/AmSn/AmSn189 6-V11-51/index.djvu?djvuopts&p age=1</a> </blockquote>_________________________________ Comments<ol><li>A. T. Jones sought to live consistently with the principles he espoused. This made him logically right yet inflexible regarding popular practices, or did it? <LI>Did the Battle Creek church of his day, twenty years later, have a Christmas tree?</li></ol>

don · 12-25-09 4:00 am

If you can worship on Tammuz's day, the day the Catholic church agreed to, then what's the big deal about criticizing the days others worship on, especially when Paul told you in Romans 14 not to judge others on which day they keep or what they eat? As I understand it, Adventists don't consider Christmas a holy day. It has no standing with us as a religious festival. Yet, we are not against enjoying the season, finding spiritual refreshment in its celebration. The spiritual error is in changing a divinely established holy day, i.e. the seventh-day as made holy at Creation. Adventists have, and still do, conduct worship services on Sunday. This is not wrong in and of itself. .

tom_norris · 12-25-09 3:33 pm

David said: Well, as long as it was for the temple. The Whites were all about the 3rd Angels Message. And James White, the CEO, was always dealing with money, debt, and the lack thereof. The Christmas tree fad was used by the Whites to bring money into the Cause. That is what is going on here. This is why they gave such a large amount to prime the pump and make it a successful model. If this fundraiser worked for the Battle Creek Church, then all the others could follow and bring in some much needed funds for all the local SDA congregations. Tithe had been put in place a few years earlier, which explains why this holiday money did not go to pay for the pastors. It was for local church expense. Perhaps there was a deficit created by the new doctrine of tithe, and thus the local churches suffered? I have not researched that detail to know. Remember this took place a long time ago, and we need to update the meaning of these funds to better understand what was taking place. The real amount, in today’s value, was closer to $20,000. The White’s gave closer to $5,000 total. <a href="http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/" target=_top>http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/</a> History shows that this fundraiser was taking place at a time when the Christmas tree was sweeping the County. It was a fad, as well as a religious symbol for an important part of the Gospel Story. <a href="http://www.benbest.com/history/xmas.html#trees" target=_top>http://www.benbest.com/history/xmas.html#trees</a> <a href="http://www.clubfemina.com/history-of-the-christmas-tree.html" target=_top>http://www.clubfemina.com/history-of-the-christmas -tree.html</a> So this is all that is going here. There is no doctrinal debate, much less any doctrine being articulated. Rather, it was a clever and successful fund raising endeavor. David said: Are these the same Whites that had the wrong Gospel until 1888 and their followers are still having problems with it? Tom said: The same. However, do not underestimate their genius or their gifts. We need to remember that Peter and James also embraced the same wrong Gospel, so we should not be too harsh on the Pioneers, as if they did something rare. David said: Didn't Paul say something about people preaching the wrong Gospel as having another Jesus and another spirit and that they were cursed? Tom said: Paul said this to Peter in Galatians 1. But guess what? We never find Peter refuting Paul, and in fact, we find him speaking very highly of him. So we know that Paul and Peter reconciled over the Gospel, even as they had the same Spirit. The testing debate for SDA’s took place in 1888. At that time, Waggoner played the role of Paul and condemned Uriah Smith and others for their incorrect view of the Gospel. Ellen White, a woman of the Spirit, joined in and not only supported Gospel Reform, but she also condemned those who fought Waggoner's message, even predicting the demise of the Battle Creek Empire if the leaders did not repent and reform. We will never know how James White would have reacted to this infamous debate that destroyed the Battle Creek Empire. He suddenly died a few years before the discussion started. However, Ellen White had the right Spirit and she played the role of a hero and Gospel Reformer. It’s just that the Takoma Park leaders hid this fact and deceived everyone about church history. This fraud led to Glacier View and the present schism. Today, the SDA’s operate under a great curse of their own making. Such a curse is never lifted without zealous repentance. But they refuse to admit any error about 1888 or Glacier View. David said: If they didn't have the same Spirit that Paul was partaker of, then whose spirit was it for forty some odd years? Tom said: You could ask that same question about Peter, James, and the early church. Whose Spirit did they have for the 20 or 30 years before Paul joined them? The HS works long and hard with sinners. It does not run and hide easily. David said: If you can worship on Tammuz's day, the day the Catholic church agreed to, then what's the big deal about criticizing the days others worship on, especially when Paul told you in Romans 14 not to judge others on which day they keep or what they eat? Tom said: For Christians today, the words of Paul to the Colossians apply. When he speaks about religious Festivals, he says no one is to judge how we relate to them or the foods that comes with such events. Col. 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day — For us, Christmas, falls under this “festival” category. The date is not valid, nor is there any basis for such a celebration in the NT, but the story is real, and thus it has some obvious value. So all are free to deal with Christmas as we think best, but not to think myths are true, or pretend that it is a “sacred” time, because it is not. Nonetheless, no one is to judge anyone about Christmas; if they give gifts, or decorate a tree, or eat too much. Or if they do none of these things. Happy Holidays to all Tom Norris (Message edited by tom norris on December 25, 2009)

cadge · 12-26-09 3:06 pm

Well, the pope says that we should honor All saints Day too. I guess it'd be okay to do the Halloween festival, also known as all hallows day. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween</a> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints" target=_top>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints</a> Jesus didn't instruct anyone to keep his birth date, but to remember him by the communion supper. He did however, keep Channuka (John 10:22). But it wouldn't be convenient for SDA's to do that, because it would bring too much attention to the error of the 1844 IJ doctrine and the truth of Daniel 8:14 and Antiochus Epiphehes as Cottrell discovered. In SDAism, Christmas becomes a convenient "truth" even if it was brought about by the "Whore" of Revelation 17 and her Church/State alliance. I guess a little confusion/Catholocism is ok as long as we can make a party out of it. It's a fine way to plant the seeds of greed and covetedness in the little ones. 'It's all about Jesus; what did you get'?

cadge · 12-26-09 4:12 pm

Then we've got the Santa/Satan deception. BTW how many use the tree for the collection of monies for the temple? Isn't it true that SDAism is pulled into the traditional Christmas affair as does the rest of denominationalism demonstrate. Giving lip service to Jesus does not do away with the worldly influence that the non-biblical event exudes. Ellen White had no more authority to institute the keeping of the Christmas tradition amongst the professed Christians of her followers than the Pope did. Proving the existence of Santa - in a Brooklyn bar By Samantha Gross Associated Press Published: Thursday, December 24, 2009 11:06 AM EST NEW YORK - Jamie Hook wants all those Santa doubters out there to know he was once one of them. It wasn’t long ago that a friend’s son demanded the truth, and Hook and the father looked in the boy’s solemn face and said Santa was a lie. It was only in the weeks afterward, watching the despondent 7-year-old drag his book bag on the floor behind him as he shuffled off to school, that it occurred to Hook: How could he know what in this wide, unlikely world was truly true? Ever since, Hook has been a little obsessed with Santa. And now he’s arranged a public lecture in the back of a Brooklyn bar, hoping to convince a group of adult New York skeptics that magic, mystery, and even Santa Claus are very much alive. * Billing his lecture as a philosophical proof of the existence of Santa, Hook flicks through the evidence in a computer slideshow, wearing a dark blue turtleneck, cardigan, and glasses that lend him a professorial air. He runs through history and evidence — largely from children — but notes there are some things even he can’t explain. “We don’t know the truth at all,” Hook says. “There’s mysteries that bubble up within us that we can’t explain and we can’t understand. And those are humbling mysteries.” Attendees like Jenna Barvitski weren’t so ready to be swayed. The 23-year-old — formerly from what she calls a “naive suburb” in Ohio, now very much a jaded New Yorker — doesn’t exactly like the jolly, red-cheeked gift-bearer. “It’s something that American culture has manufactured to support capitalism,” she says. Santa is “pretty silly.” Hook has come to believe that the value of Santa extends far beyond anything the figure has offered to advertising executives, or Christmas shoppers, or department store holiday displays. The man we know as Santa Claus has been around for centuries under one name or another, Hook tells his audience. At one time, children were told if they misbehaved that Santa’s sidekick would come and drag them off to Hell. Later, he was sometimes imagined as an odd-looking elf. It wasn’t until the 1930s that Coca-Cola advertising helped turn him into the jolly, white-haired man now embedded in our collective imagination. In his lecture, Hook turns to the real experts: showing videos of his interviews with children about Santa Claus, and even interviewing audience members live about their memories and the moment they became nonbelievers. One woman in the audience remembers the arrangements her father made so they could go to the coast with a two-way radio and talk to Santa as he flew overhead. It was an experience filled with wonder. Another audience member, David Connelly, 26, says Santa is “part of the world being magical as a child.” “I still have a warm, not completely describable feeling around Christmas that I wouldn’t have if I hadn’t believed as a kid,” he says. Even adult believers aren’t as rare as you might think. On Facebook, the “I Believe in Santa Claus” group has passed the 230,000-member mark. Eileen Migliacci-Smith, one of the group’s officers, says even when she sees Santa in the Thanksgiving Day parade or in the mall, she gets teared up. “It used to be said that it’s for kids, but I don’t think it is,” she says. “Santa Claus represents giving and being with family to me.” For Hook, confronted at the Brooklyn bar with a room of skeptics who had been promised a demonstration of the truth of Santa Claus, the ultimate proof is one of faith. Because, in the end, it can only be faith: in the spirit of giving, and in the unknown. “When you watch these kids, you realize that there is such a thing as belief. … We here in this room are in a world that lacks belief, profoundly.” Even Barvitski, so disdainful of St. Nick at the start of the evening, by the end says she’d consider telling her own kids about Santa Claus - to help them grow up in a world with a sense of magic and a belief in possibility. The lights go dark, as if in a blackout. Hook lights some candles, and yells out to ask what’s wrong. Then, a booming “Ho, ho, ho …” can be heard throughout the room. It is the voice of Santa Claus, speaking to these adults who have long since stopped leaving cookies by the fireplace. A moment later, the barkeep walks in with proof of his own: “Santa left a whole bunch of free beers on the bar!”

don · 12-27-09 10:25 am

Review and Herald, January 16, 1879, page 8<blockquote>Is It Right To Have Christmas Trees To Correspondents. Is it right to have Christmas trees and festivals? Is there any authority in the Bible for so doing ? E. M. W. ANS. We do not see any necessary connection between Christmas trees and festivals. A church festival, in its common acceptation, is an abomination. We can have a Christmas tree without that. Such trees as were provided in Battle Creek and Oakland, and we trust in many other of our churches, last Christmas, to bear our gifts to some important enterprises in the Lord's cause, we believe are all right. Is there anything in the Bible against so doing ? <a href="http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18790116-V53-03__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=8" target="_blank">http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH1879011 6-V53-03__B/index.djvu?djvuopt s&page=8</a> (James White, J. N. Andrews, and Uriah Smith listed as editors.)</blockquote>________________________________ Cadge wrote: Ellen White had no more authority to institute the keeping of the Christmas tradition amongst the professed Christians of her followers than the Pope did. I agree. Notice in the Review exerpt above, James White, J. N. Andrews and Uriah Smith put their name to the opinions offered. Notice especially, their appeal to authority of Scripture, "Is there anything in the Bible against so doing ? " Cadge also wrote: BTW how many use the tree for the collection of monies for the temple? Isn't it true that SDAism is pulled into the traditional Christmas affair as does the rest of denominationalism demonstrate. Giving lip service to Jesus does not do away with the worldly influence that the non-biblical event exudes. I will have to check further to see how our local church made use of the Christmas Tree in the Sanctuary. I assume it served a seasonal decorative purpose rather than as a fund-raiser. Giving Lip Service to Jesus This is a strong accusation; a mind-reading one. If a person celebrates "Christmas" in the "traditional affair", do they do so with mere lip service, insincere. the worldly influence that the non-biblical event exudes. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say the celebration has no Biblical mandate. The birth of Jesus is certainly Biblical. What is the worldly influence? I agree that selfish influences seem to have captured Christmas. Is this the worldly influence you refer to? What about Christmas as a generator of charity? . .

elaine · 12-27-09 3:33 pm

the 1930s that Coca-Cola advertising helped turn him into the jolly, white-haired man now embedded in our collective imagination. My son-in-law's maternal grandfather was the model for this Santa Claus advertising Coca-Cola. At his mother's recent funeral, this was on display with other photos and mementoes.

cadge · 12-27-09 8:17 pm

Cadge said: Ellen White had no more authority to institute the keeping of the Christmas tradition amongst the professed Christians of her followers than the Pope did. -- Don said: I agree. Notice in the Review exerpt above, James White, J. N. Andrews and Uriah Smith put their name to the opinions offered. Notice especially, their appeal to authority of Scripture, "Is there anything in the Bible against so doing ? " --- Cadge says: Is there anything in the bible against gambling? --- Don said: What is the worldly influence? I agree that selfish influences seem to have captured Christmas. Is this the worldly influence you refer to? --- Cadge said: Yes --- Don said: What about Christmas as a generator of charity? --- Cadge said: What about a casino as a generator of charity?

don · 12-27-09 9:22 pm

What about a casino as a generator of charity? You have mentioned gambling twice comparing it to Christmas. I don't see the similarities to be that compelling. Of the two, Christmas seems far more benign. Gambling, when it becomes addictive, destroys a person's life. Christmas appeals to one's selfishness and altruism, both, but it is not addictive in the same way, if at all. Gamblers Anonymous testifies to the devastation of Gambling. Ever hear of Gift-givers Anonymous? Consider the difference: For the problem gambler, gambling creates an irrational hope for more money returned than put in. Charitable giving at Christmas is not so set in false hope. It is true that Gambling can help to finance some worthy causes. But, it does so on the backs of addicts. Funds raised at Christmas time don't seem to have the same evil fruitage as Gambling. .

cadge · 12-27-09 11:08 pm

..."gambling creates an irrational hope for more money returned than put in." I see. Would you consider playing the stock market gambling?

tom_norris · 12-28-09 11:35 am

David said: Well, the pope says that we should honor All saints Day too. I guess it'd be okay to do the Halloween festival, also known as all hallows day. Tom said: The Puritans, knowing that Christmas was not a NT doctrine, tried to outlaw the holiday. But it did not work. The SDA’s knew this and tried to make the best they could of the situation. Here is Ellen White’s view of this. The Observance of Christmas; Over the past few years, the Adventist Review has received several letters and e-mails from church members asking about the appropriateness of Christians celebrating Christmas. This year, the Adventist Review presents a selection of the Ellen G. White writings on Christmas that offers guidance and counsel on the topic. The document was compiled by the Biblical Research Institute, based at the General Conference. Ellen White wrote: As the twenty-fifth day of December is observed to commemorate the birth of Christ, as the children have been instructed by precept and example that this was indeed a day of gladness and rejoicing, you will find it a difficult matter to pass over this period without giving it some attention. It can be made to serve a very good purpose. On Christmas, so soon to come, let not the parents take the position that an evergreen placed in the church for the amusement of the Sabbath-school scholars is a sin; for it may be made a great blessing. <a href="http://adventistreview.org/article.php?id=889" target=_top>http://adventistreview.org/article.php?id=889</a> David said: Jesus didn't instruct anyone to keep his birth date, but to remember him by the communion supper. Tom said: Correct. The church never focused on Jesus’ birth until the 2nd century when the Gnostics denied he was a real flesh and blood person. Thus Christmas was a reaction to this heresy, even as it became an early, post apostolic doctrine. There should be no doubt that Dec 25 is a false date for something not practiced in the apostolic church. (There should also be no doubt that the SDA view about wine being grape juice is also a total myth.) David said: He did however, keep Channuka (John 10:22). But it wouldn't be convenient for SDA's to do that, because it would bring too much attention to the error of the 1844 IJ doctrine and the truth of Daniel 8:14 and Antiochus Epiphehes as Cottrell discovered. Tom said: Few Christians understand Judaism. Although the SDA’s follow the Sabbath and embrace some of the Jewish food laws, they do not understand Jewish theology or history very well. If they did, they would know the meaning of Dan 8:14. David said: In SDAism, Christmas becomes a convenient "truth" even if it was brought about by the "Whore" of Revelation 17 and her Church/State alliance. Tom said: The SDA’s learned early on that there is MONEY in the doctrine of Christmas. The leaders used the Christmas tree to bring in money. Tithe had just been developed in the late 1870’s, so they were on a roll… David said: I guess a little confusion/Catholocism is ok as long as we can make a party out of it. Tom said: If SDA’s were honest Protestants, they would teach the true history of the church, including the fact that Christmas is a false doctrine from Rome, just like the Sunday Sabbath. The two are very closely related in that they are both very popular frauds. David said: 'It's all about Jesus; what did you get'? Tom said: The Laodicean Church has been judged to be the worst of all church periods. They have one false doctrine after another, and Christmas has to be on the top of the list. It will be interesting to see how the repentant Laodicean church will deal with Christmas. We know that there cannot be a Sunday Sabbath, so why would there be a false celebration about the birth of Christ? While Paul speaks in Romans and Colossians about not being too harsh on those that believe in some religious myths, would his instruction cover Christmas today? Rom. 14:1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. Rom. 14:2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, (or observe Christmas with Tree and presents) but he who is weak eats vegetables only. Rom. 14:3 The one who eats (embraces Christmas) is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Rom. 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. Rom. 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. Rom. 14:7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; I agree with the SDA’s that it is not a sin to have a Christmas tree in the church or home. But this is no excuse to be stupid about doctrine or church history. A T Jones was correct about the history of Christmas, and many agreed with him. But Christmas is a powerful tradition not easily removed. For those that understand history and theology, Christmas is a problematic and false doctrine. But for those that do not, it is something very worthwhile and endearing. The former should not look down on the latter, nor “pass judgment” on them for being so naive. I hope this helps, Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

john8verse32 · 12-28-09 5:39 pm

how bout a wedding cake? should we have those, since originally they were false offerings to the gods to promote fertility.... how bout the groom having groomsmen....who originally were there to defend against the neighboring village coming to take back their virgin which had been abducted by the groom and his best man? and should the bride walk on the left side to ensure that the groom could reach on his left hip for his sword to fight right-handedly against the villagers coming to rescue their virgin? should we kneel and bow our heads when we pray? since this used to be to show reverence to a king, and the stretching out of ones neck in the bowed position was to enable the king to lop off your head if you displeased him....after all, our loving God isn't going to do that...it is said that He'd prefer to burn us to death.... and when you raise your glass in a toast, especially if you "clink" glasses, do you acknowledge the ancient method of ensuring that if anybody put poison in your glass, by clinking and spilling your drink with everybody else, that the poisoner present would get some spilled into his glass too? so many ways we observe the past and traditions without realizing the original meaning. Dec 25? the old new year? adopted by Christians since it was being celebrated anyway? Saturnalia? the Sabbath?

don · 12-28-09 6:02 pm

..."gambling creates an irrational hope for more money returned than put in." I see. Would you consider playing the stock market gambling? I don't understand the stock market that well. But, I understand that there are at least two ways to work with stocks. One is highly speculative, the other is to be wisely informed. Consider the difference. Casino Gambling, eg. Spinning that wheel... There is no foundation to one's investment of money. Sheer luck, we hope. On the other hand, imagine... Invest in a new venture which meets a human need. Of course much depends on success of marketing, design, etc. but, the foundation is solid, a good idea. Of course, there are many ways to buy and sell stock based on a whim, or solid news. Perhaps, someone who understands the stock market can explain further. I presume that the gambling addict can get hooked on the stock market, as well. .

don · 12-28-09 6:48 pm

1879, WHAT THE TREE BORE. Here is another report regarding that 1879 tree at church headquarters:<blockquote>OUR (Battle Creek Tabernacle) Christmas tree was kept standing till the evening of New Year's, when another meeting was held in the Tabernacle. The object of the occasion was to bring in gifts, in money, clothing, or provision, for the poor. The exercises consisted of prayer, an address by sister White, choice selections of vocal music, and the gathering of the fruit of the tree. And this is what the tree bore (list structure mine): <ul><li>Cash, $67.83; <LI>orders on groceries and provision stores to the amount of $14.50 ; <LI>and articles of clothing, including <ul><li>25 coats, <LI>2 overcoats, <LI>21 pairs of pants, <LI>22 vests, <LI>30 shirts, <LI>27 prs. of ladies' and children's hose, <LI>12 ladies' sacks, <LI>17 dresses, besides <LI>boots, <LI>shoes, <LI>hats, <LI>caps, <LI>mufflers, <LI>scarfs, <LI>sacks, <LI>items of provision, <LI>etc., <LI>etc., <LI>too numerous to mention,</li></ul> <LI>amounting in value to $169.92. <LI>The total contributions amounted to $252.25.</li></ul>Some of the citizens of the place, not connected with our denomination, added their offerings to the general store. It was left with the committee of the Maternal Association and the deacons of the church to see that the articles were judiciously distributed among the needy. Review and Herald, January 8, 1880, page 8 <a href="http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH18800108-V55-02__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=8" target="_blank">http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH1880010 8-V55-02__B/index.djvu?djvuopt s&page=8</a></blockquote>_________________________________ Comments:<ol><li>By their fruit you shall know them. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <LI>I wonder what the total would be for all the charitable enterprises worldwide, today? (Not just the Adventist church, but from all charitable groups.) <LI>Another difference between Christmas and gambling. Christmas provides coats without taking some of them off the backs of addicts. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/sad.gif" ALT=":-(" BORDER=0></li></ol> .

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