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Tom, whether you believe everything in this lesson, I'm sure you will agree with what is said about tithing:
http://ids.org/featured/ids-weekend-rad … 7-tithing/
By the way I think I. miller has Geoff Volker for a Senior Pastor. How can he or you not believe in NCT after listening to this guy.
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NCT believers pays tithe? Now that really got my attention!
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I. Miller, They may pay tithe, that is why I haven't condemned the practice, however that is not what your Senior Pastor Geoff Volker believes. I listened to one of his studies at IDS Weekend Radio Show: Episode 27, Law of Christ, Part 5, Tithing http://ids.org/featured/ids-weekend-rad … 7-tithing/. Note the story in Acts 5 of Ananias and his wife who were killed for lying about what they would give to the church, and then kept all the proceeds of a piece of property they sold. It wasn't tithing, but a promise of a certain amount of money.
I. Miller, tithe away, but the SDA church, who I worked for, for a period, required double tithe on certain level positions, and required their taxes to be done internally so they could verify the giving. If your job depends on tithing we are into a whole different "ball of wax', wouldn't you agree??? No where in the NT after Jesus died did you ever hear a command to tithe. Find it and I will eat my words, Miller.
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Miller, listen to Volker's study here:
http://ids.org/featured/ids-weekend-rad … 7-tithing/
Do you believe what he preaches?? This is NCT Giving 101.
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Geoff Volker made some good points, but he is still wading in the shallow end of the pool. He is still embracing great error and false doctrine. So he needs to get deeper into the Word.
He was fascinated by the story of Ananias and Sopheria, and correctly admits that tithe was not taking place in the church. Good for him. Few TSDA’s will make such a true confession. So good for him. This singular passage forever disproves the myth that there could be tithing in the church.
Acts 5:1 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property,
Acts 5:2 and kept back some of the price for himself, with his wife’s full knowledge, and bringing a portion of it, he laid it at the apostles’ feet.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Acts 5:5 And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came over all who heard of it.
V4 Proves there was no tithing. The SDA’s teach that everyone owes them 10% on any income that would come in from the sale of property. But Peter specifically says the opposite. So tithe is a scam, used by those that do not know the Gospel and could care less if it is true or not. Evil has no conscience, much less a desire to follow the Word.
Volker also correctly teaches that giving in the NC is between the individual and God. He called such giving in the church Love gifts, which is different from the required tithe of the OC.
He also correctly denounces this idea of a double tithe, as if the first 10% is assumed as a starting place for NC giving. Good for him. He correctly teaches that there can be no tithe in the church, much less a sin to not tithe as many teach.
So far so good; while the OC law of Moses contained tithe, the NC law of Christ has no tithing. This is correct.
However, the author failed to articulate why there is no tithing in the church.
He failed to explain how the changed priesthood made tithe non-functional. In the OC, only the Levites were priests, and only they were supported by tithe. The Priests were not equal with people, but above them, thus making two classes in the OC.
By contrast, everyone in the NC is EQUAL, even a priest of God, with Christ the high priest. There is no separate priesthood, thus the famous Protestant doctrine called the Priesthood of all believers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthood … _believers
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top … -believers
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona … 0believers
If there is no separate Priesthood in the church, how can there be tithe? How can their be a top down organization ruled by elites?
Tithe is not for equals, but for an inferior to give to a superior. For a non-priest to give to a priest. But in the NC, everyone is priest, and all are equal. This is why the apostolic church taught, “sharing.” They were all equal. Men and women, which was an astounding concept in the ancient world. When the members gave to the church they were giving aka sharing, with their fellow brothers and fellow priests.
Acts 2:45 and they abegan selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
Eph. 4:28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather ahe must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.
Tithe is not shared but paid; - from a non-priest to a priest. There should be no such configuration in the church. But yet this is how the RCC is organized and so too the SDA’s, and others.
The SDA’s have followed the OC system by pretending their pastors are like priests, who are paid by the tithe. This establishes a class of religious elites that controls the church through a religious hierarchy, - which always goes corrupt and suppresses the Gospel. (Look around, this is what the SDA's have been doing for years).
So the discussion about tithe goes very deep, even to the heart of the differences between the Two Covenants, which this author does not fully understand as yet. But he will in time. So long as he stays honest with the Word and open to new truth.
Moreover, he does not correctly comprehend the connection between tithe and the Sabbath. Both doctrines must be understood in the context of OC / NC views of the priesthood. When there is a change in the Covenants, so too with the priesthood, which in turn forces dramatic doctrinal change.
NC Priests do not pay tithe or collect tithe.
NC priests can work on the Sabbath Day and not be guilty of sin, even though they are breaking the law.
Which is to say, the church is not to practice tithe or a hierarchical system, nor are they to teach it sinful for any believer to work on the 7th day Sabbath of Christ. This was always the special privilege of the OC priests and now Christ, the high priest, is extending it to everyone in the church. This is a very important point that helps explains the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Volker makes the mistake of equating the Sabbath with tithe, and concludes that Christ teaches neither. But this is a huge mistake. Christ DOES teach a NC version of the Sabbath in all four Gospels. Over and over and over.
Thus NCT is built on denial of the facts and misunderstanding about what Jesus teaches. When this crowd better understands the Gospel, and the Two Covenants, they will also come to understand the NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
The fact that they understand tithe to be a false doctrine, is a good step towards the Gospel. And so too their correct view that Sunday is not the Sabbath, and neither is the 7th day Sabbath of the SDA’s. So good for them to repudiate tithe, and the many false Sabbaths that abound. But they are not finished. They need more truth.
Now they need to keep pushing forward and learn the Gospel Sabbath directly from Christ, renouncing these silly myths about Jesus “fulfilling the Sabbath” so that he can “abolish” it, and then make it an “EveryDay spiritual rest,” for the “Sunday keeping” church. Wow! What a bunch of double-talk. The NCT view of the Sabbath is absurd and impossible. Period!
Out of all the different views of the Sabbath, NCT’s view is one of the most confused and impossible, easily refuted by anyone that can read the Gospels and hear the teachings of Christ, the Lord of all, even the Gospel Sabbath.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (05-19-12 2:41 pm)
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Tom, shame on you that you do not go on to tell the group here how those preaching the Gospel for a living were to be sustained:
1 Cor 9: 13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
You would probably say your words to Paul, so you would not have to give. The story of Ananias leaves out the fact that they probably had promised the whole proceeds from the land they sold. Rather than leave the impression the tithe is no more, tell what took it's place. As with the commands of God being more expansive than the 10 Commandments under the Jews, so giving is more expansive. As the early Church grew, stewardship must also have been talked about. There was some sort of plan for Paul to ask for the collection to be done before he got there, not to waste time with that when he came.
All that are discussing this, Tom does not tell you that what is given from a sale of land, if promised to the Lord, it could be 100% giving, not a 10% of the sale. That is why Ananis and his wife were killed for lying. They didn't do what they promised to do, give 100% of the sale.
Last edited by bob_2 (05-19-12 5:58 pm)
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Bob, as usual, you failed to deal with the points raised. Why is that?
Bob said: Tom, shame on you that you do not go on to tell the group here how those preaching the Gospel for a living were to be sustained:
Tom said: Ha! This is comical? Are you serious?
First off, I have no powers to hide any texts from anyone. Everyone has access to the Bible, and thus there can be no hiding of any texts as you claim.
Second, the passage you cite does not uphold tithe in the church. Paul is only drawing a parallel principle from Judaism, from the Temple services, to show that “those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.”
Paul is not teaching tithe in this verse or any other. And neither was Jesus when he gave the original Gospel instruction about how the Gospel preachers were to be sustained.
Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
Matt. 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt. 10:7 “And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
Matt. 10:8 “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.
Matt. 10:9 “Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts,
Matt. 10:10 or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support.
Matt. 10:11 “And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city.
Matt. 10:12 “As you enter the house, give it your greeting.
Matt. 10:13 “If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
Matt. 10:14 “Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words,
as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
Did you see any reference to tithe? No. There is none, because this is not the method to finance the church.
Note that when a doctrine is found in any of the apostle’s writings, it is not original. It can be traced back to the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. Why? Because Jesus is the source for all Christian doctrine. Thus Paul’s teaching in Cor 9 can be traced directly to Jesus, -like everything else that Paul teaches.
Jesus teaches: “for the worker is worthy of his support.”
Paul agrees and says in Cor 9: “In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.”
Bob said: You would probably say your words to Paul, so you would not have to give.
Tom said: Paul needs no instruction about giving in the church. He correctly understands, and even quotes Jesus while he makes his point. You are in the dark if you think Jesus or Paul is promoting tithe in the church. Impossible. Absurd. There is no tithing in the church in any form or fashion. Period!
Bob continues to defend the false doctrine of tithe that he was taught by the SDA’s. After a lifetime of cultic indoctrination on this point, many believe this myth true.
Tom said: I also grew up thinking tithe true. It made so much sense the way the SDA’s promoted it. But so too did many other errors they promoted.
However, once I discovered the genuine Gospel, and learned how to read the NT, the error of tithe was easily discovered. It then became an awful doctrine that creates two distinct classes in the church, even as it robs the local church of resources, - and finances an anti-Gospel hierarchy that is not fit to manage the church.
When the Gospel is correctly understood, so too tithe and the Sabbath, and many other doctrines as well.
Bob said: The story of Ananias leaves out the fact that they probably had promised the whole proceeds from the land they sold.
Tom said: The story is not hard to understand. It is not about tithing, but about sharing. They lied about the doctrine of sharing, a doctrine that was being promoted in the church as the only method to finance the early church.
I think you need to read the passage again, and pay close attention to v4.
Acts 5:4 “While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
V4 Proves there was no tithing. The SDA’s teach that everyone owes them 10% on any income that would come in from the sale of property. But Peter specifically says the opposite.
So tithe is a scam, used by those that do not know the Gospel and could care less if it is true or not. Evil has no conscience, much less a desire to follow the Word.
Bob said: Rather than leave the impression the tithe is no more, tell what took it's place.
Tom said: TITHE IS NO MORE! It was replaced with SHARING. What don’t you understand? Even the NCT crowd that you hang out with agrees.
Volker correctly teaches that giving in the NC is between the individual and God. He called such giving in the church Love gifts, which is different from the required tithe of the OC. He correctly repudiates tithe. Why don’t you?
Answer: Because your brain has been indoctrinated to believe in many cultic, SDA errors, tithe being one of the most powerful and wrong. While many leave Adventism, they leave with a warped view of the Bible, for which they must repent and work hard to find genuine truth.
Bob continued to try and defend tithe by saying: As the early Church grew, stewardship must also have been talked about.
Tom said: Of course the church spoke about “stewardship.” But not tithe.
2Cor. 9:5 So I thought it necessary to urge the brethren that they would go on ahead to you and arrange beforehand your previously promised bountiful gift, so that the same would be ready as a bountiful gift and not affected by covetousness.
2Cor. 9:6 Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
2Cor. 9:7 Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
This passage also destroys the myth about tithe in the church. Tithe is based on law, not on whatever “we have purposed in our hearts.” One type of giving is controlled by the Law, while Gospel giving is left up to the individual and God.
Bob said: There was some sort of plan for Paul to ask for the collection to be done before he got there, not to waste time with that when he came.
Tom said: The church shared their resources with other churches in need. But tithing was not involved at any point.
Moreover, if you read this account, the receiving church was to pay back the freely given “gift” and “contribution” when they were able, thus keeping an “equal” relationship within the church.
Did the Priests ever give back the tithe? Were the Levites trying to be equal with the people? No. Tithe is not a “gift” but the law. It was not optional in the OC. Nor was “equality” featured in the OC.
2Cor. 9:12 For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
2Cor. 9:13 Because of the proof given by this ministry, they will glorify God for your obedience to your confession of the gospel of Christ and for the liberality of your contribution to them and to all,
Bob protested and said: All that are discussing this, Tom does not tell you that what is given from a sale of land, if promised to the Lord, it could be 100% giving, not a 10% of the sale. That is why Ananias and his wife were killed for lying. They didn't do what they promised to do, give 100% of the sale.
Tom said: The point of the story is this: the early church embraced sharing, not tithing. When A & S lied about sharing, they were judged so that all the church could understand that this method of church finance was not optional. God was showing that honest sharing within the church is how the Gospel is to be financed.
Moreover, this doctrine of sharing is found all over the NT. In fact, the gift from one church to another, was not based on tithe, but on sharing and “equality.” Tithe is based on neither.
Read this account and understand what is taking place:
2Cor. 8:1 Now, brethren, we wish to make known to you the grace of God, which has been given in the churches of Macedonia,
2Cor. 8:2 that in a great ordeal of affliction their abundance of joy and their deep poverty overflowed in the wealth of their liberality.
2Cor. 8:3 For I testify that according to their ability, and beyond their ability, they gave of their own accord,
2Cor. 8:4 begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints,
2Cor. 8:5 and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God.
2Cor. 8:6 So we urged Titus that as he had previously made a beginning, so he would also complete in you this gracious work as well.
2Cor. 8:7 But just as you abound in everything, in faith and utterance and knowledge and in all earnestness and in the love we inspired in you, see that you abound in this gracious work also.
2Cor. 8:8 I am not speaking this as a command, but as proving through the earnestness of others the sincerity of your love also.
2Cor. 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich.
2Cor. 8:10 I give my opinion in this matter, for this is to your advantage, who were the first to begin a year ago not only to do this, but also to desire to do it.
2Cor. 8:11 But now finish doing it also, so that just as there was the readiness to desire it, so there may be also the completion of it by your ability.
2Cor. 8:12 For if the readiness is present, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have.
2Cor. 8:13 For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality —
2Cor. 8:14 at this present time your abundance being a supply for their need, so that their abundance also may become a supply for your need, that there may be equality;
2Cor. 8:15 as it is written, “HE WHO gathered MUCH DID NOT HAVE TOO MUCH, AND HE WHO gathered LITTLE HAD NO LACK.”
2Cor. 8:16 But thanks be to God who puts the same earnestness on your behalf in the heart of Titus.
Let all understand what is taking place here. A local church with abundant resources supported another local church that was in poverty. Not with tithe, but with a free will gift. Not only that, it was a gift that was expected to be paid back, further proving that this was not tithe, or anything like it.
2Cor. 8:13-14 For this is not for the ease of others and for your affliction, but by way of equality — at this present time your abundance being a supply for their need, so that their abundance also may become a supply for your need, that there may be equality;
Do you see it? “Equality” in giving is a doctrine in the church. Tithe is not based on “equality,” but on the superiority of a class of elite priests that rule over the people and are supported by the non-priestly class. A very unequal situation, which was law.
There can be no unequal giving in the church; that is, to a hierarchy that will not give back. The SDA hierarchical system is not built on equality but on the OC doctrine of tithe and on the superiority of the priesthood over the people, called pastors. It is a false system that repudiates the Gospel.
Once the Gospel is correctly understood, it will become apparent that tithe is a false doctrine in the church. There is absolutely no defense or justification for such OC doctrine in the church. It is a great evil that must be confessed and corrected before the SDA’s can go forward. They are stuck in the OC, which is why they are self-destructing. No one should defend their many false doctrines.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, go back on your own thread and blow hot air the other direction. You can remove posts over there to control the content as you have to me. You have nothing to contribute here. Most of the posters have gotten wise to you self appointing yourself to bring your non existent Reformed Sabbath to the SDA church. How deluded can you get???
Last edited by bob_2 (05-20-12 5:07 pm)
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