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Have any of you seen this ad on Facebook side column ads:
http://www.faithreclaimed.com/
This makes me wonder why Doug Bachelor doesn't come on to forums like ours and engage us directly rather than using canned prepared sermons and see why some of the Adventists are leaving. Recently I listened to one of Doug Bachelor's sermons at Sacramento's Central SDA church. He suggested to people with grown children, that when they come home, that if they don't want to keep the Sabbath like the church member, to ask them to stay in a hotel so they do not disrupt their keeping of the Sabbath/Saturday.
I wrote to Doug Bachelor and pointed out that if he is giving this type of advice that not too many "missing" or "backslidden" individuals would be too interested in his advice and invited him to engage us here at www.atomorrow.com about some of these issues. Hope rains eternal but don't hold your breathe. Some of you that wish to suggest such to Bachelor, use the above website. Notice it is over next weekend that he is giving his prepared sermons/presentations on Hope Channel.
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Sorry, I meant to say I invited Bachelor to www.atomorrow.net not .com. Also, for those interested in access to the Hope Channel, you can view the channel on your computer with access at www.adventistreview.com . There are TV and radio connections at the bottom of the page.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-07-12 2:47 pm)
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Inviting Doug Batchelor to come over here and discuss Adventist Reform would be like inviting Caiaphas, the high Priest of Old Covenant Judaism, to discuss the New Covenant with Jesus. It could never happen.
Gal. 3:12 the Law is not of faith;
Luke 11:23 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters.
The OC, which features law, control, and force, does not mix with faith, mercy, and freedom. The OC and the NC are mortal enemies, with very different views about God, man and salvation; only one can survive.
See:
A Perfect Christian
http://www.yourchristianspace.com/blog/ … batchelor/
http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2010/0 … -converged
Doug Batchelor represents the OC, thus he will never come Online with us to discuss Adventist Reform, which is a NC paradigm. He is the High Priest of Traditional Adventism, and as such he has no intention of admitting any error or losing control of his religious empire that he has worked so hard to build over the years. Those in power plan to stay in power, regardless what anyone says, and regardless if what they are doing is a scam. If it makes money, that is all that matters to those in control. This is business. Serious business. But not Gospel business.
John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.
John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”
John 11:49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,
John 11:50 nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish.”
John 11:53 So from that day on they planned together to kill Him.
Batchelor is very much like his ancestor, Caiaphas; he too is committed to defend his OC worldview and his position in it. Thus, Caiaphas, err, I mean Batchelor, would rather shut this site down and force everyone to listen to his mindless propaganda and doctrinal delusion, if he could. But he can’t.
So he just ignores the issues and pretends all the critics are wrong and that only the SDA hierarchy knows all truth and should control the world. He, like Caiaphas, has staked his life on tradition and dishonesty.
Moreover, Batchelor knows that he would fare no better at defending Traditional Adventism over here than Clifford Goldstein, who ran away in utter defeat and humiliation in front of the entire Online community. So rather than admit that there is a problem with TA, he pretends all is well.
Back in 2007, Batchelor wrote an article about Perfection and used Noah and Job to prove his point. The link no longer works. But a discussion still stands at JR’s site called:
Doug Batchelor's Perfectionism
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 12415.html
If Doug Batchelor has anything to say, he needs to start by responding to what has already be posted on that thread by Tom Norris.
But don’t hold your breath. He is not able to be post any rebuttal, much less come online and answer questions. He does not understand the Gospel, much less be willing to discuss it in public. The NC is beyond the comprehension of those who champion the OC. And so it will ever be unless people can confess their false doctrines and repent.
AMAZING MYTHS AND BLASPHEMIES, by Tom Norris
As for the Amazing Facts article: Amazing Facts should be called "Amazing Myths" or "Amazing Blasphemies." The late Joe Crews was a great legalist that championed Traditional Adventism. Neither he, nor Doug Bachelor understands the Gospel, much less Historic Adventism or the fundamentals of Protestant theology. Their teachings represents that of Uriah Smith and the Battle Creek SDA's as they too promoted the confusion of character perfection through the power of the Holy Spirit.
Such doctrine is horrible and very wrong at every level, even as it is full of double-talk and error. It is the typical SDA garbage that led to the destruction of the Battle Creek Empire in the 19th century as well as the same result in the 20th century after Glacier View.
But the SDA's just don't get it. They never seem to learn anything.
This article is so confused and wrong that it makes no sense unless you understand that the goal is to promote the unique brand of Sabbatarian perfection from the confused and dishonest SDA's. Then it makes sense because there is a plan behind it, as well as a hierarchy that is out of control.
Amazing Facts is the modern voice of Traditional Adventism. They promote convoluted and dishonest propaganda that the vast majority of Adventist's have already repudiated, and correctly so. Thus, both the Hierarchy and Amazing Facts are wasting their time because this absurd and twisted theology will never catch on with anyone anymore. It will never grow the church as the leaders hope. On the contrary, it will destroy the Advent Movement, which it is doing for all to see.
MISUSE OF SCRIPTURE
As for the confused Jew, Doug Batchelor, no one should pay any attention to his cultic garbage. He is like a naked man sitting in a dark cave called Traditional Adventism, refusing to turn on the lights and examine what he is teaching. He is neither a theologian nor a historian. Rather, he is paid by the SDA church to promote this awful propaganda that is destroying the Advent Movement.
To illustrate this point, note how the author speaks of Noah and Job as the paragons of virtue, even using scripture to make his point. However, the confused Batchelor ignores the fact that Noah was a manufacturer of wine, and a sloppy drunk that committed incest. Does this behavior represent the ideal? Is this the "righteous behavior" that all should strive to emulate? Hardly.
So why point to Noah and pretend that he was really righteous, and that he had achieved some wonderful level of Sanctification when it is obvious that he was a great sinner and a drunk?
Batchelor also misunderstands the book of Job and ignores the fact that Job was not really righteous and without sin when the story concludes. So he must have only read the front part that seemed to support his views, because the rest of the book tells a very different doctrine from what he is teaching
In fact, at the end of the book, things are very different from the beginning. Which is why when Job declared himself innocent, and not a sinner, God did not buy it for a second and strongly disagreed. Job had not reached sinlessness or any such vaunted spiritual position.
So the story of Job is not about a "righteous" or fully sanctified person as the author claims. It is about the futility of any mortal claiming to be righteous, without guilt or sin.
It shows that while Job THOUGHT he was sanctified and "righteousness in his own eyes," he was not, not, not any such thing. He too was a great sinner as far a God was concerned. This is the way that heaven views all mortals. But the SDA's have their own spin on Job and everything else.
Here are some passages from Job that proves Doug Batchelor is ignorant of the scriptures, and that he is using them in a very dishonest and self-serving manner. Let all see how the TSDA's manipulate the scriptures to support their false doctrines.
Job 32:1 Then these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
Job 32:2 But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God.
Job 32:3 And his anger burned against his three friends because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.
Thus, Elihu correctly chastised Job for thinking he was "righteous" and without sin.
Job 33:1 “However now, Job, please hear my speech,
And listen to all my words.
Job 33:5 “Refute me if you can;
Array yourselves before me, take your stand.
Job 33:6 “Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay.
Job 33:8 “Surely you have spoken in my hearing,
And I have heard the sound of your words:
Job 33:9 ‘I am pure, without transgression;
I am innocent and there is no guilt in me.
Job 33:10 ‘Behold, He invents pretexts against me;
He counts me as His enemy.
Job 33:11 ‘He puts my feet in the stocks;
He watches all my paths.’
Job 33:12 “Behold, let me tell you, you are not right in this,
For God is greater than man.
The story ends with God rebuking Job for his self-righteous position, and with Job repenting for thinking that he was without sin.
Job 40:6 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm and said,
Job 40:7 “Now gird up your loins like a man;
I will ask you, and you instruct Me.
Job 40:8 “Will you really annul My judgment?
Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?
Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD and said,
Job 42:2 “I know that You can do all things,
And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.
Job 42:3 ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
“Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand,
Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.”
Job 42:4 ‘Hear, now, and I will speak;
I will ask You, and You instruct me.’
Job 42:5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear;
But now my eye sees You;
Job 42:6 Therefore I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes.”
So much for the example of Job being righteous. He was not righteous or sinless and both Job and Doug Batchelor were very wrong to think otherwise.
Therefore, the story of Job does not support the point that we can be "perfect Christians." In fact, it teaches the OPPOSITE because even as good as Job was, (and he was a sincere, dedicated, and heaven acknowledged follower of God), he was not really righteous, or sinless, and thus he deserved all his bad fortune like any other sinner.
Which is why he had to "repent in dust and ashes" at the end of the story. This is hardly the same as reaching a sinless state of being as the SDA's teach. In fact, it is the opposite!
The story of Job proves the opposite of what the SDA's are trying to teach. Shame on the incompetent SDA Apologists. They are deceivers and blasphemers, unable to understand the Gospel or treat the Word with respect or honesty. They all need to follow the example of Job and "retract" their confused doctrines and "repent in dust and ashes."
So neither the book of Genesis nor Job supports what Batchelor and the SDA's teach about sanctification, and neither does any other books of the Bible. The TSDA's are legendary for their misguided attempts to manipulate the Word and teach false doctrine. And here is but another example of their deceit and incompetence.
Through the use of the proof text method, Batchelor makes a mockery out of the Protestant hermeneutic as he manipulates the Bible for his own self-serving ends. Such dishonest behavior is outrageous and unacceptable.
The SDA's have obviously come to the place where they are so full of double-talk and deception that they are not able to deal with scriptures or church history in a responsible or honest manner. They just grab a text here and there to make their points, along with some Ellen White, also taken out of context, so that they can promote their false doctrines to the ignorant. It is very wicked behavior, especially coming from those that preach about sanctification and sinlessness.
The TSDA's are the world's greatest hypocrites. They will ignore whatever they don't like and overlook what they don't understand, which is a lot, all so that they can make their confused and legalistic points. These worthless apologists, with their endless personal stories and proof texting are making fools out of themselves, even as they are far away from comprehending the true Gospel.
There is no place in the Adventist Movement for such false shepherds and their confused doctrines. Amazing Facts is a cesspool of false doctrine, even as Doug Batchelor is a self-condemned wolf for all to see. Shame on those that teach a false Gospel.
IMPOSSIBLE DOCTRINES
While the author admits he has not achieved full and total sanctification, neither has he stopped sinning as yet, he goes on to say that this is nonetheless the proper goal of all that are not "counterfeit Christians."
So the SDA's have set up a doctrine for all to embrace, even as they admit to not achieving it. What is the point of such double-talk? Why promote fantasy doctrines that will never be achieved? As if cognitive dissonance were a gift of the Spirit?
Why promote doctrines that are against the Gospel and against the Word?
This is madness as well as blasphemy. The SDA's are the worlds most confused and dishonest church, having no idea what the Gospel actually means, or how one is saved. They do not understand the Word or Historic Adventism, even as they promote a false spirituality that they admit they have not yet achieved. What a mess.
In fact, the confused Batchelor claims that we "are commanded to be perfectly surrendered." But that is not even a term found in scripture. So the SDA's rush to invent new doctrines to accompany their delusions about the IJ, another term that does not exist in the Bible.
To be "perfectly surrendered" is SDA code for promoting Sanctification as part of the Gospel. It is the same nonsense that Venden promoted as he tried to present legalism in a more palatable package to counter Dr. Ford's correct, Protestant Gospel.
But there is no such doctrine as salvation by relationship or surrender. Salvation is by faith in the finished work of Christ, not by our works of surrender or relationship. Thus the church is not commanded to proclaim either sanctification or the need for perfect surrender, none of which is the Gospel.
Thus the false Gospel of the SDA's is being featured in this article, even a Roman Catholic "process" Gospel that no Protestant should ever support or follow. Traditional Adventism is cultic nonsense and no one should think otherwise. Such theology is blasphemy, as is this teaching that Jesus asks us to be "fully surrendered" or "sinless."
Where does Jesus say that our sanctification is part of the Gospel? Where does the NT teach that our obedience to the law is part of the Gospel? And that we must achieve a certain level of righteousness and sanctification to be saved? Who has reached this level? Where are these special men and women?
The Bible does not teach that any Christian has achieved full sanctification or sinlessness, nor that such a state is necessary for salvation. Although Job was called "righteous," he was only so by imputation, and thus in reality he proved to be a great sinner in need of repentance, just like all sinners.
Thus no Christian is to ever think or claim that they are not sinful, and in need of repentance. Not because they are really good, like Job or Noah, but because they are really bad--like Job and Noah. There are no really good people in the Bible, except Jesus. All the others were very sinful.
Luke 18:10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luke 18:11 “The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luke 18:12 ‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’
Luke 18:13 “But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’
Luke 18:14 “I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
But the good news is this: our salvation is not predicated upon our obedience to the law or the level of sanctification achieved. Which is why both Noah and Job could be saved. In fact, it is the only way; because they never reached any state of sinlessness as the SDA's incorrectly claim, and neither will we.
Thank Heaven for the Gospel.
I say again: If salvation were predicated on our sanctification--as the SDA's teach, no one would be saved. Not Noah or Job or Peter or Paul because there is no such thing as a sinless human being (except for Christ). And it is blasphemy to teach that such a sinless state can exist here on earth, prior to the Second Coming.
Miller repudiated such a doctrine and would not allow it into the Advent Movement. But apparently this has not stopped the SDA's from bringing this false doctrine into the church anyway. How sad.
MORE MISUSE OF SCRIPTURE
Although Batchelor also quoted from John to make his point, he did so in a dishonest manner. While he selectively cited John 1:9, he purposefully omitted the two texts that surround it. Why? Because they both teach the opposite of what he is saying.
But this is how the SDA's deal with the evidence; they manipulate scripture. They make it say whatever they want, while ignoring what it clearly teaches. Such is an amazing and despicable fact for all to see.
1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
This is yet another irresponsible use of scripture and another deliberate attempt to manipulate the Word, that all should be warned away from anyone that is so hermeneutically challenged as Mr. Batchelor. Only a wolf would treat the Word in such a manner. Lambs do not treat the Word like this.
MISUSE OF ELLEN WHITE
Those that support Traditional Adventism are not able to be fair or honest with the evidence. They ignore the fundamentals of Protestant theology and routinely misquote Ellen White to sustain their false doctrines. So they cheat at every opportunity, even as they slander those, like Dr. Ford, that correctly understand Protestant theology and church history.
This article promotes the SDA legalism of the 1970's when the emphasis was on Jesus, who "left us a perfect example." Jesus was the "model man" that all were to follow and emulate. This was but one of many methods that were used to promote a false version of sanctification and the Judgment. Another was Ellen White.
Not surprisingly, Mr. Batchelor also brings Ellen White forward, but she too is taken way out of context, and made to say the opposite of what she actually teaches in the Book Steps to Christ.
This becomes evident when one takes the time to read this 1892 book that actually refutes character perfection. What is amazing is that Ellen White does not endorse what Doug Batchelor would have us believe. He has been caught taking her words out of context and manipulating her writings to support his dishonest viewpoint.
This is what all SDA's do. They rummage though the Bible and the SOP in order to find the passages that they think supports their doctrines, ignoring the context and any contradictory information.
Such historical dishonesty and hermeneutical incompetence results in a circus of blasphemy and false doctrine, and this is what Amazing Facts is really all about. Mr. Batchelor is self-condemned for his disgusting and dishonest use of sources, as well as for his legions of false doctrines.
Listen to how the post 1888 Ellen White repudiated character perfection in Steps to Christ. How could Mr. Batchelor have overlooked this passage?
"The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,-- perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized."
"It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. "
"But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted (ACCOUNTED) righteous."
"Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned." (Page 62.)
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This concept that "Christ's (imputed) character (His sanctification) stands in place of your (sanctification) character" cannot be found in the pre 1888 Ellen White. In fact, it is a break through concept for the SDA's that repudiates what Uriah Smith taught and promoted all his life.
Thus Ellen White, after 1888, is repudiating this idea about making our characters "safe to save." She is not supporting Traditional Adventist legalism or the Gospel of Glacier View. Here is a very "amazing" fact for Mr. Batchelor to ponder. Ellen White does not support the Gospel or the eschatology of Amazing Facts. And neither do the Apostles or the Reformers. Now that is truly "amazing."
Prior to 1888, all the Battle Creek theologians taught that "character perfection" was a prerequisite for salvation, and that sanctification, and thus the IJ, was part of the Gospel Plan. But after 1888, thanks to Waggoner and Luther, Ellen White grew up and understood that sanctification is not a part of the Gospel. And that our character development was not salvific at all.
See also:
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST50531
CONCLUSION
There is no doctrine about any Christian having to live a certain way without a mediator. This was not a concern of the apostolic church, nor is to be one at the end of time.
Moreover, the NT teaches that nothing in the future will ever separate us from the love and mercy of God. Not even when Christ leaves the Most Holy place and travels to Earth. At no time during this period is any Christian in theological peril.
Nor is their any doctrine about sinless perfection, or even striving for such a righteous status as the SDA's teach. No sinner will ever get to heaven because of their sanctification or good works. Not Job or Noah, Peter or Paul. And certainly not any SDA's.
Our sanctification is not part of the Gospel, and it never was a part of what saves any Christian. Thus it is wrong for the SDA's to promote sanctification as they do, and to obsess about obedience to the law. Our obedience is not part of the Gospel and anyone that says otherwise is not a Protestant or a true Adventist.
Mr. Batchelor has proven himself to be very incompetent and dishonest with the Word. He teaches false doctrine from the Bible and from Ellen White, even as he is guilty of promoting a false Gospel and a false Christ.
Thus Amazing Facts blasphemes heaven with their "wretched" and worthless propaganda that is an embarrassment to the Advent Movement.
Such wicked behavior is hardly called "obedience."
So it is a good thing that Mr. Batchelor does not claim to have reached the sinless state that he teaches all must strive to achieve, because he is much further away then he thinks. He has one foot in hell already, and if he does not repent, he is a doomed man.
Those that promote TA should not lecture others about "real repentance" because they are guiltier than all others. They are the ones that need to repent and reform their awful doctrines. They are the worst of all; being hypocrites, liars, and false prophets.
The Amazing Facts crowd has the wrong Christ and the wrong Gospel, even as they have repudiated the very Fundamentals of Historic Adventism.
Ellen White does not support their doctrines, and neither should any Protestant or Adventist. Which is why none the Apostles, Reformers, or the Adventist Pioneers support what they teach. And this goes double for Ellen White. She does not support Traditional Adventism as all have been misled to believe. She does not support what Amazing Facts teaches.
Shame on the SDA church for allowing Amazing Facts to promote this cultic and legalistic garbage that is destroying the Advent Movement. They are a big reason why the church is floundering. What an amazing fact for Mr. Batchelor to process?
Let's only hope that Amazing Facts and those that control and support it will wake up and understand that Traditional Adventism is false and destructive. It is incompatible with the Gospel and the genuine version of the Three Angels Messages that Ellen White endorses. The Advent Movement will continue to self-destruct with such awful theology.
Tom Norris for Advent Reform
Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1185930477
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As Ronald Reagan use to say, "Well........" there you go again, Tom. WOW!! No hope for the lot of them, EH? If any one of us are still members, especially, should at least engage "the other side" so that they have to answer for the "Faith" that is within them, hopefully using scripture in context to, SHARE, with others what they and we believe.
Tom, personally, I wish you would use lower case "r" when talking of Adventist reform. What you are seeking is not Luther's Reformation but institutional reform. You know how I feel about your Reformed Sabbath theory. If there was an larger SDA church in my area like a Sligo or a Loma Linda, I would have no trouble worshipping on Saturday with the brethern, as long as Col 2:16, 17 is followed, which is not your suggested REFORM, but is New Covenant Theology.
For you to suggest Bachelor is OC in his Theology, shows that you do not believe there is any discontinuity between Old and New Covenants. He would probably agree with most of what you tout, Tom, up to the end of the Gospel of John, and skipping to Revelation. The reform that is necessary is not a Norris Reformation, but a correct reading and studying of the Bible in context. With that the Covenants flow as they should with the proper PUNCTUATION, like a period after the OC or something to indicate the proper transition in the proper way. The OC was not demolished, but is obsolete as Heb 8:13 says. It is there for all to learn from, but New Covenant Theology is not Reformed SDAism, but if done correctly would be reformed, lower case ,"r", from Seventh day Adventism to Adventism with New Covenant Theology. As long as you do not see Christ fulfilling the Sabbath in Himself and Christ's Law in effect, your Reformed SDAism would fail like Bachelor's theory.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-07-12 6:29 pm)
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Did any of you catch Doug Batchelor, or any part of his sermon tonight. I caught the last part. Did any of you get the impression he was preaching collective salvation. He told of how the tall red woods stand together because their roots are tangled together. Then he appealled to wayward church members, that you can only grow if you are in the church. Any church other than the Adventist Church was considered the world, compared to the vacuum of space, and the space walking astronauts dare not float too far from the mother ship because he might get lost.
The message of salvation, is that what it is, organized religion???
http://www.hopetv.org/watch-now/watch-l … h-channel/
Last edited by bob_2 (01-14-12 1:07 am)
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I saw some of the 'Reclaiming your Faith" by Bachelor. The premise starts out false that returning to membership in the SDA church, will reclaim one's faith. Your faith is not your membership. It is an individual relationship with God. Bachelor errs on this opening premise!!
Last edited by bob_2 (01-24-12 4:19 am)
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