SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath

tom_norris · 09-05-12 10:15 am

Question for Tom Norris: Do I have to keep the Sabbath to be saved?

Answer: First off, no Christian is saved by trying to observe any Jewish law. In the New Covenant, salvation is not based on law keeping, but faith in Christ. So the answer is NO.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Furthermore, those that think they are pleasing God by their law keeping, will NOT be saved. They have misunderstood the Gospel teachings of Christ.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

In addition, this popular idea that Christians are to “Keep the Sabbath” by refraining from work, is very wrong. Jesus does not teach that the New Covenant Sabbath is to be a resting, passive doctrine, where work or play is sinful. This is what his enemies, the Old Covenant minded Pharisees taught. See link

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Jesus promoted an active, Sabbath were it was not a sin to work on the 7th day Sabbath. Thus, the Gospel Sabbath of Christ does not conform to the 4th commandment, which is why the Pharisees became so upset.

Christ teaches a very different Sabbath from the SDA’s and all others for that matter. And of course this is the Gospel Sabbath that the church must follow. No other.

Today, those who claim it sinful to work on the Sabbath, like the SDA’s, do not understand the Gospel teachings of Christ any more than those who promote the Sunday Sabbath or this new idea that Jesus supposedly fulfilled the Sabbath and thus abolished it, changing it into an Every Day spiritual doctrine of rest (NCT). See link

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

While the SDA’s have the correct day, the 7th, for the New Covenant Sabbath, so too did the Jews; but they rebelled against Christ and Gospel Sabbath. This is why they sent him to the cross, - because they hated his new view of the Priesthood and the Sabbath.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

Today the SDA’s do not understand or embrace the correct doctrine of the Sabbath as they claim. Until they get this doctrine correct, they should stop trying to instruct others about things they so badly misunderstand. The Adventist need to seek for more truth. They have not cornered the market on truth as they pretend.

Luke 6:42 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

According to Jesus, the SDA’s have no right to teach others until they first remove all error and understand the Gospel correctly. To date, they have not done this, nor are they even trying.

The SDA’s are great hypocrites. They are wrong about the Gospel, the Judgment and even the Sabbath. So why do they presume they are error free when it is clear to everyone that this is not the case. They have many “logs” of error that must be repudiated and removed, including their incorrect view of the Sabbath.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for All Experts.com and Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 09-12-12 3:33 pm

Question for Tom Norris:

OC Sabbath Keeping

TSDA's rationalize OC Sabbath keeping by reframing the debates between Jesus and the Jewish establishment as Jesus simply battling the Pharisaical laws that governed Sabbath keeping. So to them they dont see Jesus as reforming the OC Sabbath but redeeming it back from those who made it a burden with extra laws not found in the Decalouge. Why are they wrong?

Also, for those of us who have been raised in traditional Adventism, reformed Sabbath Keeping seems too good to believe (like the Gospel), are there any other laymen, commentators, theologians, pastors or historians advocating reformed Sabbath keeping?

Marvin, from Florida

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Tom Norris replied:

Yes, the Gospel Sabbath of Christ sounds too good to be true. (Just like the genuine Gospel.) No doubt many SDA's wished they had been raised on the Reformed Sabbath of Christ as opposed to the OC Sabbath of Moses. How much happier their lives would have been. What a pity that the SDA's have embraced the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath. Such an OC doctrine has turned off many, as well it should. However, without the OC, there could be no NC. So the errors of the past were meant to lead us to truth today. Let's be thankful that truth is progressive, and that we are free to find it.

SDA’s Misunderstood

The historical context of the SDA’s has often been overlooked and misunderstood. The eschatological reform introduced by the Millerites, (the original Adventists), was fundamentally true and correct. Which is why all denominations have since embraced the pre-millennial corrections about the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment that Historic Adventism featured.

Today, every church and denomination in the land embraces Adventist theology. Every church today has followed Millers breakthrough eschatology about the Second Coming. But few, if any say thank you to the Adventists. The SDA’s should be thanked for making such a dramatic correction to church doctrine, one that still stands correct today.

Adventists and the Sabbath

The Advent Movement, like both the Roman Catholics and Protestants, embraced Sunday as the New Covenant Sabbath, aka the Lord’s Day. This view of the Sabbath was also Old Covenant as it prohibited work on the 1st day.

Consequently, both the 1st and 2nd Angels Messages (1840’s) were 100% Sunday based, with no doctrine about a 7th day Sabbath or the “pre-advent judgment,” which would not be introduced until 13 years after the great disappointment. At this point in time, the Adventists have the wrong day, and the wrong, OC view of the Sabbath doctrine.

It was not until the development of the 3rd Angels Message, in 1847, that the 7th day Sabbath became a doctrinal pillar for this small Millerite group that would eventually become the Seventh-day Adventist Denomination. Here is where the 7th day entered the Three Angels Messages, also known as the Adventist Apocalyptic. But it was still Old Covenant in practice and theory.

Moreover, the SDA’s not only embraced the 7th day as the weekly Sabbath for the church, they also tied this doctrine to the last day events that would precede the 2nd Coming. Thus “Sabbath Reform” became part of their mission and eschatology. They claimed it was a necessary church reform that must take place before the world could end.

Within 20 years, this new, Sabbath focused, Advent denomination would surpass all other Advent groups, including Millers original Adventist denomination that held fast to Sunday as the correct, New Covenant Sabbath.

Battle Creek, Michigan soon became the headquarters for this reformed Advent Movement, which would feature a new and unique view of the Sabbath unlike any in church history.

The SDA’s also claimed to be the defenders and protectors of the original Three Angels Messages, which they defended as the correct eschatological path for the last church. They were not giving up any of the previous pillars, but rather, adding the 7th day to the progression of truth within the Three Angels Messages.

Sunday vs. Saturday

It is important to understand that during much of the 19th century, especially in the 1870’s and 1880’s, there was a great movement for Sunday Sacredness. In fact, many different denominations joined together to promote Sunday sacredness, establishing “blue” laws to enforce a civil policy of no working on the Sunday Sabbath.

(Of course such a point about not working is a feature of the OC Sabbath, but the SDA’s missed this opportunity to elevate the debate, being guilty of the same basic error, though on a different day.)

See:

National Sunday Law
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm

The SDA’s viewed this Sunday / Sabbath debate as the reason why they existed. They insisted that Sunday was false doctrine associated with a false Gospel. At the end of time, they predicted that the 7th day Sabbath would emerge as a separating point for those who would go on to embrace the genuine Gospel and be saved. Thus they tied the doctrine of the Sabbath to salvation and the end of the world.

The SDA Sabbath

It is important to understand that the SDA’s did not have a different doctrine of the Sabbath, -- only a different DAY for worship. While many denominations were promoting Sunday as a non working day, the SDA’s promoted this same view for the 7th day. Thus both the 19th century Sunday keepers, and the SDA’s, had the same basic Old Covenant view of the Sabbath; just different days.

The early SDA’s were not mature enough to understand that there is more to Sabbath Reform than days on the calendar. Even today, they fail to follow Jesus Sabbath teachings about the Priesthood or the NC Sabbath. So long as they are correct about the 7th day, they feel they have the full doctrine.

Such a trite view explains why they are now unable to defend their long held view of the Sabbath, much less explain away the genuine 7th day as taught by Christ in all four Gospels. The SDA’s have been stunned by the emergence of a new, 7th day doctrine of the Sabbath. They never thought there could be a different view from what they embraced and promoted, much less a different view of the Gospel, which they also have very wrong.

(If the Denomination was rendered unable to grow because of the IJ debate in 1980, just imagine the ramifications when the people today understand that their leaders are also WRONG about the Sabbath, and tithe, etc. It will be the end of the SDA's and the beginning of a new, more advanced Advent Message).

See:

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

The REFORMED, 7th day Gospel Sabbath

The SDA’s are very correct to teach that there is no such doctrine as a Sunday Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day. They are also correct to understand that only the 7th day can be the correct day for the New Covenant Sabbath. Good for them.

However, they have failed to fully understand the Gospel, or Jesus teaching about the New Covenant Sabbath. They also misunderstand what the apostles teach about the Gospel Sabbath. So they are very confused right now. They never knew there was an ACTIVE, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. They only know the 7th day Sabbath of Moses.

The Reformed, 7th Day-Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

The SDA’s have embraced the same errors as the Sunday keepers, in that they too think it wrong to work on the Sabbath. But nowhere does Jesus teach a resting, non-working 7th day Sabbath. Rather, he teaches an active, working Sabbath where no Gospel believer is guilty of breaking the 7th day by any kind of work.

The SDA’s have embraced the correct day but the wrong doctrine. They have embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews, even as they have misunderstood the Gospel itself. Hardly a new error in the history of the church. But one that need not have happened.

Today, the SDA’s are not even aware that there is an active, New Covenant, Sabbath of Christ. All they know is the Old Covenant, non- working Sabbath of the Jews, for which they have made their own special rules and regulations. This is because they do not understand nor embrace the genuine Gospel of Christ. They are judaizers in the fullest sense of this term, even as they cling to many additional Old Covenant doctrines, like tithe and Jewish food laws.

At this point, the SDA’s have been unable to respond to the reformed Gospel Sabbath that has been brought to their attention. Their leaders have long ago run away from any public discussion about the Judgment, Gospel Reform, or the Sabbath. So they may be too far-gone. But those that are honest with the Word will embrace the clear teachings of Christ about the Sabbath and all else.

When the Gospel is correctly understood, - so too the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath. This theological fact condemns every church and denomination, - starting with the SDA’s. They claimed to be the Sabbath experts all these years. Too bad they were only partially right.

Too bad they rejected the Gospel and misunderstood the doctrine of the Sabbath. At this point, no church or denomination has a correct view of the NC Sabbath, least of all the SDA’s.

Today, there are no organized groups following the correct New Covenant Sabbath. This is because no church or denomination fully understands the Gospel of Christ. This is the great sin of Laodicea; all are blind to the Gospel, full of false and worthless doctrine.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

At some point, there will be a major correction to all this false doctrine and religious corruption. A final Gospel Reformation will take place in the church.
There will be genuine repentance and Gospel Reform, which will also include Sabbath Reform.

The SDA’s were correct to predict such a phenomenon. And they were also correct to teach that the 7th day Sabbath would be a part of this future Reformation. Too bad they misunderstood the Gospel Sabbath and embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses. They have acted like the Jews who killed Christ or the Papists that burned their critics at the stake. Sad.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev 18 shows this last theological Reformation taking place just before the great time of trouble. This last Gospel movement will testify to the teachings of Christ with great clarity and power. This spirit filled movement will also include Jesus’ view of the Sabbath, which is very different from what any church is teaching today.

Matt. 24:14 “This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

This final Gospel message will separate the legions that follow tradition from those who follow Christ and his Word. The ACTIVE, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath will become a public marker for the genuine teaching of Christ, even as new congregational models are developed that will focus the local church on serving, helping, and loving people as opposed to supporting a corrupt, anti-Gospel, hierarchy.

John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

SDA’s Have Partial Truth

No one should misunderstand how Gospel truth unfolds or think the SDA’s have no worthwhile doctrines or truths. While they are awash with error and corruption, they still have important theological insights to help the church better understand the Gospel at the end of time.

Without the Adventists, the church would be even more confused about eschatology than they are today.

As for the Sabbath, even though the SDA’s have it wrong, they did get the day correct, even as they associated this doctrine with the Gospel and eschatology, elevating it to a very important concept at the end of time. The Seventh-day Baptists never made such a connection. But they too did their duty, preserving the truth about the 7th day for those who would come later.

It turns out that there is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church. But it is not what the SDB’s or SDA’s teach, nor is it what any church in Laodicea teaches.

All are wrong! All have misunderstood the Gospel teachings of Christ and the NC Sabbath. However, this is the normative context for a Reformation. This is how the Gospel started and why Luther made such an impact. So too with the Advent Movement, all had a false view of the 2nd Coming. Thus great error leads to great truth and revival.

This explains why the Spirit was pushing the early Pioneers so hard in this direction. No wonder Ellen White had visions about the importance of the Sabbath. The 7th day Sabbath is part of the Gospel Story and the teachings of Christ.

The NC Sabbath is part of the final Reformation at the end of time where Gospel truth becomes clear, correct; separating those who follow Christ from the many pretenders who will not receive Eternal Life.

Too bad the SDA’s failed to fully understand the Gospel and the Sabbath. They came very close during the 1888 debates. But not close enough as their sad history demonstrates.

Regardless, today we must give the SDA’s credit, like the Jews, or the Roman Catholics, or the Protestants, for moving truth forward, - however imperfectly.

Today, it is time for the 21st century church to move forward, - with or without the SDA’s. They have played their role in history and made some important contributions. But if they refuse to repent and fully embrace the Gospel, they must be cursed and left behind. So be it.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Apparently it is time for a new Gospel organization to replace the Adventists, embracing their noble mission to prepare the church for the 2nd Coming and the end of the world. Because the SDA’s have failed, others will end up completing Sabbath and Gospel Reform.

SDA Contribution

While the SDA’s deserve to be cursed for their false Gospel, all should remember; without them, there would be no contemporary context to understand the correct 7th day Sabbath. Without such a context, how could anyone find the genuine 7th day teaching of Christ that has only recently become public? Why would anyone care?

The Sunday crowd was not looking for any such truth. Nor is a Sunday mind-set compatible with the discovery of new truth about the 7th day. So the SDA’s have helped locate Gospel truth, even as the anti-Sabbatarian, NCT crowd has invented their own error about the Sabbath to add more confusion to the discussion.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

The fact that SDA’s have also failed to locate the correct 7th day Sabbath doctrine is sad, but beside the point we are making. Without the SDA’s, the last church could not have known the genuine Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which has been overlooked by the church for many centuries.

Out of error and darkness; truth and light emerge.

The Gospel emerged out of great Jewish error and corruption. But for all the Jews had wrong, - which was a lot, - they also had some important Gospel truth, without which, the kingdom of God could not have advanced.

If there had been no Judaism, there could have been no Church. And if Jesus had not been killed, there would have been no Gospel or the forgiveness of sin. So error can lead to truth.

The Seventh Day Baptists, and the Adventists, then the SDA’s are all part of the progression of truth, (along with many others). Even though the SDA’s are now following the same false path as did the Jews and Judaizers, that does not mean they have no truth or should not be given a chance to repent and embrace Gospel Reform.

Truth is progressive, often being almost extinguished before progress can be made. So the search for Gospel truth goes on, and so too the progression of Gospel knowledge in the Laodicean church. Too bad the Adventists no longer care about the search for truth. Too bad they have turned their backs on the Gospel and have degenerated into a dishonest, money grubbing, cult.

Conclusion

Today, the church, meaning all denominations and believers, stands on the brink of a paradigm shift of apocalyptic proportions. But only for those who determine to honestly follow the genuine Gospel of Christ as contained in the New Testament.

Let all keep close to the Gospel teachings of Christ as the church moves forward to better understand the Gospel and last day events.

Jesus is the greatest of all theologians and teachers. He is the head of the church. What he teaches, all must follow, including his clear position about the ACTIVE, New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath, which is featured in all four Gospels.

Let all carefully study the Gospel teachings of Christ, embracing his Words for Eternal Life. Including what he teaches about the ACTIVE and Reformed, 7th day Sabbath.

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com and Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 09-16-12 3:19 pm

Follow -up question for Tom Norris:

Like many SDA's I found myself having to choose between my job that now required me to work during 'Sabbath hours' and the Adventist teachings concerning Sabbath observance in these current economically uncertain times we now face.

This became a source of frustration for me as well for my wife coming from traditional SDA backgrounds.

Not knowing about Sabbath reform, I resolved to keep my job thinking it a greater sin not to take care of my family than to 'break the Sabbath'.

I found your exposes on Sabbath reform to be a relief from my frustration since I had not yet shed the Old Covenant mindset from traditional SDAism.

I must add, however, that I was a bit skeptical at first.

Since you also come from Traditional Adventism, I must ask, what lead you to the Reformed Gospel Sabbath that you now advocate? Where/how did that begin?

Marvin, Florida

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Tom Norris answers:

A Short History of (modern) Sabbath Reform

The SDA’s promoted the 7th day Sabbath as the greatest and most public of their doctrines. This doctrine, which is part of their name, separated them from the rest of the Christian world, making Sunday a badge of error as well as a point of contention and reform.

As part of this doctrine, only a few would be allowed to work on the 7th day, --like the Pastors and those in Health Care. For all others, it was a great sin against the Moral law. As a result, there were many rules and regulations that had to be observed, as any SDA will admit.

In addition, the SDA’s teach that all will be forced to embrace the Sunday Sabbath, which they claim is the “mark of the beast”. They also taught that the US Constitution would be repudiated at the end of time, thus ending freedom of religion and starting the Tribulation. Only those who remain true to God’s law and his 7th day Sabbath will be saved.

Mark of the Beast

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/faq/advance … beast.aspx

To say that the SDA’s are obsessed with this Sunday / Sabbath debate is an understatement. Their view of eschatology is focused on a great war between those who remain true to the 7th day Sabbath and the Sunday forces, who claim the 1st day of the week is the Lord’s Day. This is how they view the last day events; Sunday versus Saturday.

Of course, the SDA’s were not living in a vacuum. During the 19th century, an ecumenical Sunday Sacredness movement took place. It was such a popular success, that the US Congress considered a National Sunday law in the late 1880’s.

National Sunday Law
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ay-Law.htm

Moreover, some SDA’s were actually imprisoned in the South for their refusal to comply with the popular Sunday blue laws. So their fears were not without foundation or cause. They viewed such things as harbingers of what was to come, taking encouragement that their views were correct.

The Riddle of Liberty
http://www.libertymagazine.org/index.php?id=636

Consequently, in 1901, the SDA’s formed the “Religious Liberty Department” whose mission it was to fight for those Adventists who were being persecuted or forced to work on the 7th day. By 1906, the Religious Liberty Magazine was launched.

See Religious Liberty links:

http://www.adventist.org/mission-and-se … berty.html

http://www.adventistliberty.org/

http://religiousliberty.info/

http://www.libertymagazine.org/

The Blue Laws
http://www.libertymagazine.org/index.php?id=1850

After the great Battle Creek schism, the 20th century SDA’s continued to embrace their eschatological focus about Sunday persecution. They were so serious about this theology that they actually moved to Takoma Park, a suburb of Washington DC, just so they could be closer to the Nation’s Capitol where they intended to fight for religious liberty and Sabbath Reform.

SDA Persecution Complex

As an SDA born and raised in Takoma Park, I routinely witnessed testimony meetings where members would stand up and tell their stories of religious persecution. They told how they had to quit their jobs because their employers would not accommodate their Sabbatarian views. Many would rather quit their jobs or find other employment rather then work on the Sabbath, thus showing the sincerity of their faith. They also refused to go to a restaurant on the Sabbath, or buy gas for the car, etc. It was a very restrictive doctrine.

Such a mind set drove many SDA’s into the health care industry because such work had to be done on the Sabbath and thus they were given a special exemption by the church. This also explains why so few SDA’s start businesses, like restaurants, where Saturday work is required. Consequently, SDA’s are not known for their business acumen, unless in is in the area of Nursing Homes or Health Care.

Regardless, the modern SDA’s made their point about religious freedom. The courts now support their religious beliefs regarding the 7th day Sabbath. To be specific, the 1964 Civil Rights Act prohibits any employers to “refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment because of such individuals race, color, religion, sex, or national origin…”

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/titlevii.cfm
http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/vii.html

Today, a number of SDA’s routinely sue their employers over the Sabbath. Even some who work in Health Care have taken the position that they should not be required to work on the 7th day Sabbath, which starts on Friday evening. So some SDA’s still try and uphold their non-working views about the 7th day.

See:

Charlotte Hotel Faces Religious Bias Raps for Firing Seventh-Day Adventist Employee
July 31, 2012

Charlotte, N.C.—The United States Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has filed a discrimination case against Comfort Inn Oceanfront South Monday for allegedly terminating a former employee because of her religion.

According to EEOC’s press statement, the Nags Head-based hotel company failed to reasonably accommodate the request of Claudine Neal, a front desk clerk employee, to be assigned into a different shift to give way to her religious obligations.

Reports say that Neal is a practicing Seventh-Day Adventist and she observes her Sabbath from Friday sundown until Saturday sundown.

In the lawsuit, it was stated that the company’s managers assigned Neal to work on a Friday evening shift. Knowing that she cannot work on the said shift because of her religious observance, Neal requested to be assigned into another work schedule.

The company reportedly did not entertain the request of the employee and fired her instead.

EEOC said that the action done by Comfort Inn violated the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employers to discriminate against employees based on their religion.

www.mesrianilaw.com/Charlotte-Hotel-Faces-Religious-Bias-Raps-for-Firing-Seventh-Day-Adventist-Employee.html

See also:

In U.S., workplace religious freedom legislation finds traction
http://news.adventist.org/archive/artic … -local-lev

Over the past 150 years, the SDA’s have invested much time and treasure in fighting for their right to worship on the 7th day Sabbath without being forced to work. Now that they have succeeded in not only protecting their rights, but also in making the 7th day more normative and acceptable, what is next for them? How does the 7th day fit into our 21st century world?

To date, the SDA’s have not been able to answer this question, nor are they even trying. Their leaders have long ago refused to speak honestly about doctrine, much less consider that they have any error. Such a cultic mentality has shielded SDA theology from correction and reform, which explains why so many have left the church with such bitter feelings. The SDA’s most fierce critics are their former members.

SDA’s Confused and Divided

Today, the SDA’s have the right to worship on the 7th day, without discrimination or the threat from Sunday Blue laws. However, such a success has not come without a price. The more rights that are granted for their doctrine of the Sabbath, the less plausible their views about how the world will end.

Consequently, their 19th century views about Sunday worship being forced on all, under penalty of death, seems absurd and out of date. Which is why Sunday persecution is no longer a featured topic in any SDA church today. While the Denomination still holds this position, few members take it seriously, and thus many question the church’s views on eschatology and many other doctrines.

In addition, during the 1970’s, there was great debate about both SDA history and theology. Many members questioned the church’s views about the law and the Gospel as well as the Sabbath and the teaching about the Investigative Judgment and Ellen White’s authority.

However, these issues were not honestly dealt with by management. As a result, millions have left the Denomination over the past 30 years. While those that remain are less legalistic about the Sabbath and less concerned about Sunday persecution, the SDA’s now lack relevancy as well as credibility. Which explains why they can no longer grow in North America. Their outdated and dubious doctrines make little sense to anyone.

To be specific, few modern SDA’s really believe that the US will enforce anyone to worship on Sunday. Although the Adventists still promote this tired and strange eschatology through such media outlets as Amazing Facts, it has little impact because Federal law protects all those who embrace various religions. Thus, the modern SDA’s have largely moved away from their historic eschatological positions, leaving them with little rational or credible eschatology. Without Sunday persecution, the SDA’s don’t really know how to promote their view of the Sabbath.

See:

Sabbath Truth- Amazing Facts
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/

Adventist Reform

In the late 20th century, Dr. Desmond Ford became the leading voice for Gospel Reform within the Denomination. Unfortunately, the leaders refused his call to better understand the Gospel and up-date Adventist eschatology. In fact, not only did they refuse to honestly examine the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment, they refused to admit the church held any error about any point.

Dr. Ford was exiled following a very unfair religious trial that was held at Glacier View, Colorado in 1980.

Dr. Ford
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/bioford.cfm

Sanctuary Review Committee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_Review_Committee

Dr. Ford and Glacier View
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … r-View.htm

After the debacle of Glacier View, legions of SDA’s repudiated the Investigative Judgment, as well as the 7th Day Sabbath and left the church. Some of the best and brightest went off to start their own independent ministries, free from the arrogance, error, and control of the Denomination that no longer allowed freedom of speech or the search for more truth.

New Liberal Independent Adventist Churches
http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-K-L/Liberal-inde.pdf

Latest Attack on the Sabbath- Dr. Bacchiocchi
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/end … ti_13.html

Liberal Adventism
http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-D/Damascus-rd.pdf

As the post Glacier View church fell into confusion, division, and schism, millions of once loyal SDA’s left the church of their youth. The leaders countered with Pluralism, which was a less judgmental and legalistic policy designed to allow for different points of view. But this only made matters worse and more confused.

In a desperate attempt to stop the damage from Glacier View, the leaders even went so far as to marginalize the Traditional SDA’s who were responsible for pushing Dr. Ford out of the church. This changing situation forced many to recalibrate their position on the Sabbath, even as it angered the Conservatives who were losing their grip on power.

As the 21st century drew near, the Seventh-day Adventism was fragmenting for all to see. But even so, the leaders refused to embrace meaningful reform or admit that the church was self-destructing for all to see. Denial and cultic delusion was the order of the day, and that problem has not changed. So many thinking SDA’s left the church, a phenomenon that is still taking place today.

Some SDA’s joined the Jews for Jesus Movement and found a church home. This was a natural fit as this group observed the 7th day Sabbath. They also upheld the Moral law and the Old Testament in a familiar manner, including tithe paying.

Others joined local evangelical churches that were Sunday based. This situation was problematic because all SDA’s knew that Sunday was not the correct day for the Sabbath. So they were forced to re-think everything they knew about this doctrine, from which there was no escape even outside of Adventism.

Other former Adventists took a middle road and formed churches that met on both Saturday and Sunday. But such a solution begged the question as to what day was the right day? And why? So there was a period of time, in the 1990’s, when the discussion turned to the doctrine of the Sabbath. Not for those who had stayed in the church, but for those that were leaving or had left.

Where Are They Now?
http://www.adventistreview.org/2000-07/story3.htm

As confusion swirled around the Sabbath doctrine, many turned to Dr. Ford for guidance. After all, he had helped everyone better understand that the IJ was against the Gospel and very wrong. In spite of how badly he was treated by the SDA’s, he was still a brilliant, kind, world class Protestant scholar who understood all sides of the Sabbath debate. What would he say about the Sabbath now that he was no longer an SDA in good standing?

While Dr. Ford was an enemy of Traditional Adventism, he never waivered about the 7th day Sabbath. Ford declared that the Gospels are full of Jesus Sabbath teaching, and thus the 7th day is part of the Gospel Story, while Sunday is not the correct day for the church to meet and worship.

To underscore his point, Ford separated from those evangelical Adventist churches that were moving forward with Sunday worship. According to Dr. Ford, Gospel Reform includes the 7th Day Sabbath, not the Sunday Lord’s Day, which has no basis in either the OT or NT.

Although Dr. Ford refused to support the switch to Sunday, which was taking place by those who had also repudiated the error of the IJ, it made little difference. Most all of the breakaway SDA’s were turning their backs on the 7th day Sabbath and finding an excuse to worship on Sunday.

Many embraced a new anti-Sabbatarian doctrine, - invented in the 1970’s, called New Covenant Theology, which claimed that Jesus had “fulfilled” the Sabbath, turning it into an Every Day spiritual rest. Thus there was no 7th day or even a 1st day Sabbath. Ironically, all those that embraced this position, ended up meeting on Sunday, proving that such a viewpoint was not only impractical, but without any theological basis in fact.

NCT Exposed As Error
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=953

It was at this point that I interviewed Dr. Ford and started to re-examine the doctrine of the Sabbath, - not from the point of the SDA obsession over Sunday laws, but from the point of the Gospel teachings of Christ. To my shock, the Sabbath of the SDA’s is the same as the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Pharisees, the enemies of the Gospel.

Reflections on Adventism-by Tom Norris
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm

It soon became apparent that Jesus taught a much different, and very controversial, New Covenant view of the 7th day Sabbath. He taught there is no guilt for anyone that works on the 7th day Sabbath, which enraged the Jews and led them to kill him. Jesus view of the New Covenant Sabbath is the OPPOSITE of what the SDA’s teach about the Old Covenant Sabbath.

How could the SDA‘s have missed such a point?

Answer: Because they had misunderstood the Gospel. This is also why they have some much false doctrine.

While the SDA’s get credit for promoting the correct DAY for the Sabbath, they have the WRONG doctrine. They have embraced the non-working, OC Sabbath of Moses, not the NC, priestly, active Sabbath of Christ. Here was a paradigm shifting point for the Advent Movement that the leaders suppressed and ignored. But this Gospel doctrine will not go away. The NT is very clear about the Gospel Sabbath, and it has always been clear for those looking for truth.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

So Dr. Ford gets the credit for pushing the Gospel forward within Adventism and discovering the New Covenant, 7th Day Sabbath. Thanks to his Gospel instruction, courage, and insight, a new understanding about the Sabbath has come into view for the church.

Who saw that coming? Not me. No SDA had any idea that there could be a new and improved doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. Adventists just assumed they had all the truth on this topic when this was obviously not true.

Dr. Ford defended the fundamentals of the Gospel and the Advent Movement when many thought he was wrong about both. But he was correct to demand the removal of the IJ, and to protect the 7th day from those who claim it a false, worthless doctrine. There is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath, and it is not what the SDA’s have been teaching all these years. Who knew?

While the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath is false and against the Gospel, there is a correct and true doctrine of the 7th day for the Laodicean Church. Let all thank Dr. Ford for his Gospel insights, which is the basis for Adventist Reform.

Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Let all SDA’s repent of the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Pharisees and rejoice that there is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church. Such a theological fact changes everything for Adventists. Now there is a clear path of Gospel Reform for the Advent Movement to follow. What a pity it has taken so long to unfold.

I hope this helps explain the background and emergence of the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. No one today that embraces Christ should think it sinful to work on the 7th day. He does not teach such a false, Old Covenant view of the Sabbath. Shame on the SDA’s. They have acted like the 1st century Jews that hated the Gospel and crucified Christ. Pity.

It is time for the Advent Movement to repent and go forward…

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for All Experts.com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 01-14-13 11:45 am

Working on the Sabbath

The NC Gospel Sabbath is being discussed at Adventist Online. While we have been discussing it for years, it is a shocking new doctrine for them, -- for some, one that seems like from hell.

Someone posted: Wow! According to Tom Norris, who knows what he is talking about, this is a revolutionairy wonderfull sentence, explaining that the sabbath like all the other 9 commandments are to be kept in freedom and love. Basically Tom is saying that this verse means that we shouldn t judge each other concerning the way in which we keep the sabbath. And if we see how Jesus kept the sabbath, he taught us to do good works on the sabbath! Which is quite different than the Old Testament sabbath.

i personally am convinced that the New Covenant sabbath theory is worth investigating because most of us have been taught the 4th commandment in an old testament fasion, whereas the New Testament sabbath is so much better!

Tom Norris said: Working on the Sabbath? Good to see that some are open to Gospel truth. However, for many SDA's, this new view of the 7th day Sabbath makes as much sense as it did to the Jews in the 1st century. Such an idea must come from mind of a “hellish false prophet, empowered by Satan to deceive God’s elect into breaking His commandments.” This is exactly how the Jews reacted.

John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, (on the Sabbath) can he?”

Listen to this typical Jewish, err, I mean SDA reaction:

The anti- Gospel Sabbath SDA said: I've read enough to know that it's not worth reading.

He then correctly quoted Tom Norris who wrote:  "All that follow Christ are free to work on the 7th day, not just those who work in the health field as the SDA’s teach. There is no distinction between a person that has to repair a car on the 7th day or operate on a person, or paint the house. All are free and guiltless according to the Gospel teachings of Christ."

Then he continued: It's very clear. You can paint houses, fix cars, or do any kind of work on the Sabbath, not just emergency, or ministerial, work. Why keep reading? Obviously, this is too good to be true. So, it's not the truth. This man is nothing, but a hellish false prophet, empowered by Satan to deceive God's elect into breaking His commandments. Open, and shut case.

My condolences to you, brother, for the time you've invested in these spurious teachings. I mean that with all the love, and respect, and sympathy I can express on such a medium as this.

Reply by a Gospel Sabbath supporter: -- You are quick to judge and slow to learn. You wish to be a Pharisee rather than follow the instructions of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus prophecied that the endtime church would be in a pathetic state spiritually:

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

See: Why Do We Hold On to the Old Covenant?
http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/to … %3A3613672

Tom Norris said: Note the reaction from the law keeping SDA. He thinks the idea of working on the Sabbath is impossible and “too good to be true.”

So it can’t be true because it seems too wonderful and free. God is not that nice, nor is religion so easy. No doubt this legalistic SDA has never read much of the Gospels, but yet he thinks the SDA view is so correct that this is an "open and shut case." The SDA's have the best possible doctrine of the Sabbath. It is without error or any need of correction.

This is the same reaction to the Gospel as the Jews experienced. Which is why this SDA goes on to claim that Adventist Reform is promoting “cheap grace.”

In other words, Tom Norris must be promoting a false Gospel, because any such doctrine that would allow anyone (except for a special class), to work on the Sabbath must be wrong and sinful. But yet, this is exactly what Jesus teaches over and over in the Gospels. Christ is changing the OC into the NC, and the Sabbath doctrine must be reformed in the process. But the Jews hated the NC, along with Jesus’ new doctrine about the priesthood, Sabbath, and Temple. It is the reason why he was sent to the cross.

When the Gospel Story is correctly understood, and the teachings of Jesus are honestly embraced, both the Gospel and the Reformed Sabbath will become clear to those who want to see truth. For those wedded to a false, legalistic view of the Gospel, they will never understand, --just like the many 1st century, tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Jews that choose the Law over the Gospel.

Let all be careful how they view the Gospel teaching of Christ. Their eternal fate will be determined by how they react to Jesus’ words, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 03-03-13 1:27 pm

Adventist Reform has entered the public domain. There is nowhere to hide from so much online material. As a result, the SDA’s Forums often discuss AR, including the active Sabbath of Christ.

Too bad that most posts by those who want Reform are censored and taken down. This is the way the cultic SDA’s operate; they live in denial of the facts that prove them wrong, even as they try to protect their members from hearing truth. Sad.

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/to … d-too-much

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/to … %3A3650930

Note the reaction about the NC Sabbath from a typical, law keeping, SDA. He, or she, thinks the idea of working on the Sabbath is impossible and “too good to become true.” It makes no sense to those who have been trained to embrace a false Gospel as if it were true; and to think that obedience to the law is part of the Gospel.

How can any Christian dare break the Moral law and not be guilty? This makes no sense to a legalist. Jew or SDA.

This is the same reaction that the Jews had towards Christ’s Gospel Sabbath.

Then this SDA goes on to claim that Adventist Reform is based on “cheap grace.”

Attached below is an SDA response to the reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ, (which has since been censored and removed from the site).
----------------------------------------------

Adventist Online:

SDA said: I've read enough to know that it's not worth reading.

He then quoted Tom Norris who said:   "All that follow Christ are free to work on the 7th day, not just those who work in the health field as the SDA’s teach. There is no distinction between a person that has to repair a car on the 7th day or operate on a person, or paint the house. All are free and guiltless according to the Gospel teachings of Christ."

The SDA continued: It's very clear. You can paint houses, fix cars, or do any kind of work on the Sabbath, not just emergency, or ministerial, work.
Why keep reading? Obviously, this is too good to be true. So, it's not the truth.

Tom said: While the world teaches that something “too good to be true” --is not, this is NOT what Jesus teaches. The Gospel gives us Eternal Life, based on our faith in Christ, not our law keeping. This seems impossible, but in fact is exactly what the NT teaches.

The Gospel is much better than people imagine, and so too is the genuine New Covenant Sabbath, which the SDA’s have never understood correctly. They are only now hearing about it. It stuns them, seeming “too good to be true.”

SDA said: This man (Tom Norris) is nothing, but a hellish false prophet, empowered by Satan to deceive God's elect into breaking His commandments. Open, and shut case.

Tom said: This is exactly how the Jews viewed Christ and his Reformed 7th day Sabbath. They thought he had lost his mind and was controlled by the devil.

Such a similar reaction today, speaks volumes for those paying attention to the NT.

SDA said: My condolences to you, brother, for the time you've invested in these spurious teachings. I mean that with all the love, and respect, and sympathy I can express on such a medium as this.

Reform minded SDA replied: You are quick to judge and slow to learn. You wish to be a Pharisee rather than follow the instructions of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus prophecied that the endtime church would be in a pathetic state spiritually:

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/to … %3A3651085

See: Reply by rush4hire on January 9, 2013 at 2:37pm)
--------------------------------------------------------

At one point, this site was full of discussion about Adventist Reform. But most of it has since been taken down. Today, the SDA’s can only use censorship to defend their confused doctrines. They have no champion to come online and defend their errors. And when someone steps forward, like Herb Kersten, to try and defend the IJ, they soon give up and run away in tears for all to see.

IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173

Today, the SDA’s run AWAY from truth when they should be running towards it. What a pity that Gospel truth and facts of history and theology no longer matter to them. With such a bad attitude, they will never find the Gospel or understand correct doctrine. Which is why they must repent before it is too late, apologize to Dr. Ford, and embrace Adventist Reform.

Tom Norris for AR

tom_norris · 09-25-15 3:47 pm

Question about the Seal of God:

From where do the Adventists get the doctrine that God's seal is upon those that keep the 7th Day Sabbath holy?

Does not the Bible say that God's seal is the Holy Spirit?

Darren, from Illinois, United States

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm

-----------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris answers::

The Seal of God & The Sabbath

This question about the SDA’s claiming the 7th day Sabbath to be a “seal” and a “sign” is calculated to prove Adventist theology wrong and Ellen White a fraud. But such intent is misguided because the SDA’s do have serious truth for the church, which is progressive and counter-intuitive. While it cannot be denied that they have embraced much myth and error, they have also contributed serious theological truth for all Laodiceans to honestly consider.

Many today fail to understand that the Bible is an ancient and complex story, which has given rise to many theological variations, denominations, and opposing doctrines, none of which are fully correct and without error. No one is doctrinally perfect, except Christ. Which is why theological correctness is not required for salvation. If it were, none could be saved, including the apostles, who were often confused and wrong about doctrine, both before and after the cross.

So the fact that the SDA’s embrace error is not news. The critics are also full of error, lacking a credible doctrine of the Sabbath as well as eschatology. The fact of the matter is that error is legion in the church today, and it has been so from the beginning. There has never a time when Christian doctrine was without error or mistake, even as the last church has been judged by Christ to be the worst, blind to the Gospel.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

The point to understand is that doctrinal error, especially as it relates to eschatology, is normative at every stage of church development, including the 19th century, when the Advent Movement was launched. Eschatology and prophecy have always been very difficult to understand, and thus the Adventist Pioneers should be praised for their attempts to find more truth in this most difficult area of theology. It is remarkable that they were able to find so much truth, especially because they stood alone in promoting a literal, pre-millennial 2nd Coming that would destroy the world.

Some in the early church also had difficulty comprehending the 2nd Coming, even though Paul was their personal instructor. One church thought the 2nd Coming had already taken place and they had missed the event. But Paul corrected them, reminding them of his previous instruction on this point.

2Th. 2:5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

2Th. 2:1-2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Those that try to understand the Bible, including the difficult prophetic passages of Revelation, are not to be censured for seeking Gospel truth about the end of the world. The NT teaches that we are to be “alert,” “paying attention” to eschatology, even as there are specific “blessings” promised to those read and hear “the words of prophecy.”

Matt. 24:42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

2Pet. 1:19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev. 22:7 “And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”

The Adventists have already contributed a great deal to the modern church’s understanding of theology, specifically when it comes to the 2nd Coming. In fact, every denomination today now embraces Pre-millennialism, which is the foundation of the Advent Movement. What every 19th century church and seminary dismissed as error and false doctrine, has now been universally embraced as Gospel truth. And correctly so. This pattern of discovering error and finding more Gospel truths will continue until the end of time. It is a process of theological maturation that represents fulfilled present day prophecy.

Dan. 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

Eph. 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Eph. 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

Eph. 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

Regardless of the error about timing, Miller was essentially correct about pre-millennialism and the doctrine of the 2nd Advent. The SDA’s were also correct to 1) repudiate the Sunday Sabbath. They are also correct to 2) make the point that only the 7th day could be the New Covenant Sabbath, and that 3) the final “division” in the last church would be over the doctrine of the Sabbath. These three points stand, although though there are many additional errors that must be corrected, even as there are also more truths that have been preserved, like Luther’s doctrine of soul sleep, also known as the State of the Dead. Here is another point where the SDA’s have found Gospel Truth.

The Sabbath, the Seal of God, & the Sealing

The “Seal of God” and the “sealing” are two distinct points, both referenced in Rev 7. This passage 1) speaks to a time, just before the great Tribulation, and 2) features the “seal of God” being uplifted for all to see. It also deals with 3) the sealing of the 144,000 that are loyal to God.

Rev. 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

Rev. 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,

Rev. 7:3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

Rev. 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

This complex topic cannot be explained away because the Holy Spirit seals the saints.

Eph. 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What is this “seal of the living God” that is brought to view from the East in v 7.2? It is not the Holy Spirit, because angels do not bring the Spirit, which has been in the church since the beginning. Nor does the Spirit come from any specific direction.

John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

John 3:8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Eph. 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

While the SDA’s were not denying the role of the Holy Spirit, they were trying to promote their new view about Sabbath Reform. The fact that they have not fully succeeded is beside the point. Understanding eschatology is a very difficult process, and no one should be faulted for trying to comprehend what is so difficult.

Moreover, there is not one singular definition of a “seal” or “sign” in the Bible. In fact, there are numerous “seals” and “signs” that range from the “mark of Cain” to rainbows in the sky. Even the baby Jesus was a “sign,” as was Circumcision, the Sabbath, and Baptism. Paul even refers to the Corinthian church as the “seal of his apostleship.”

Rom. 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,

Rom. 4:12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

Rom. 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Luke 2:12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”

The SDA’s were not denying that the Spirit “seals” the believer; rather, they were looking to discover more specific details about the Sabbath, which they claimed had eschatological significance. No doubt, this is why James White wrote in 1850:

“…The Sabbath is the seal, and the Holy Spirit is the sealer.” Advent Review, 1:57, September 1850

The SDA’s teach that the 7th day Sabbath was a “sign,” and so it was for the Jews. They are correctly making the point that Sunday was never given such status in the Bible. Thus they viewed the last day events as if it was going to be a Sunday versus 7th day battle. They were obsessed with being right about the day, which they were. But there is more to the Sabbath doctrine than just the day.

Ex. 31:17 “It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”

The Bible is full of “signs” and “seals” and it would be a mistake to think that the fate of the Sabbath doctrine is determined by such dubious interpretations. Here are some articles about sealing, note how easy it is to connect this or that doctrine to the sealing:

Sealing In The Bible
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictiona … /seal.html

Seal As Spirit
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/ … nd-pledge/

Seal As Baptism
http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/40202

Gospel Sealing

Holy Spirit Seals People “In Christ,” as a “Pledge” of Salvation:

Eph. 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Eph. 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph. 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

2Cor. 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,

2Cor. 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Church As Seal- By Paul

1Cor. 9:2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

Two Seals About Trust & Behavior – By Paul
2Tim. 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.”

Jesus was sealed
John 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Jesus Tomb was sealed
Matt. 27:66 And they went and made the grave secure, and along with the guard they set a seal on the stone.

Belief As Seal: John the Baptist
John 3:33 “He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true.

Prophetic Sealing-SDA

The Adventists were focused on prophecy and the end of the world. In such a context, they claimed that the 7th day Sabbath had eschatological significance, specifically in Rev 7; 1-4. The subject of the sealing foreseen in Revelation 7 caught the attention of Adventists when they discovered that Jesus had begun the final preparation for His return. They saw clearly in the Bible that Christ's sanctuary ministry entails much more than His "cleansing" work in heaven. Simultaneously with His heavenly work He is "cleansing" a people, preparing them to meet Him at the Second Advent.

(See P. Gerard Damsteegt, "The Sanctuary and Adventist Experience," Ministry, October 1994, pp. 34-38).

Intensive study of Christ's ministry in the most holy place shed new light on God's "testimony," His ten commandments (Rev :9; Ex 25:6, 22). This study brought to the fore the role of the decalogue as the unchanging standard of conduct by which people will be judged. In the process, it opened their eyes to the permanent validity of the fourth commandment, with its seventh-day Sabbath.
Seal of God

http://www.andrews.edu/~damsteeg/seal.html

Sabbath as Seal- By Bates

In 1847, Joseph Bates first proposed that Sabbath-keeping was the Seal of God and Sunday-keeping the Mark of the Beast in his book, Seventh Day Sabbath. Adventist historian George Knight writes in the Adventist Review:

"Bates set forth what would become the Sabbatarian understanding of the mark of the beast. Building upon Revelation 12:17 with its idea that God would have a last-day remnant that would 'keep the commandments of God,' he noted that 'there will yet be a mighty struggle about the restoring and keeping [of] the seventh day Sabbath, that will test every living soul that enters the gates of the city' (SDS [1847], 60).”

“God’s people would be 'persecuted for keeping the commandments' by those who had the mark of the beast. 'Is it not clear,' Bates asked in examining Revelation 14:9-12, 'that the first day of the week for the Sabbath or holy day is a mark of the beast[?]' Thus at the end of time only two groups would live on earth—those having the mark of the beast and those keeping God’s commandments, including the seventh-day Sabbath (ibid. 59)."1

In 1849, Bates published a book entitled, A Seal of the Living God, in which he writes:

"Now all advent believers that have, and do, participate in the advent messages as given in Rev. 14:6-13, will love and keep this covenant with God, and especially His Holy Sabbath, in this covenant; this is a part of the 144,000 now to be sealed.

"The other part are those who do not yet so well understand the advent doctrine; but are endeavoring to serve God with their whole hearts, and are willing, and will receive this covenant and Sabbath as soon as they hear it explained. These will constitute the 144,000 now to be sealed with 'a seal of the living God,' which sealing will bear them through this time of trouble."2

Joseph Bates wrote:

Sealing, signifies to close, settle, confirm, ratify, make sure between two parties for ever. In this case the parties are God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, with 144,000 men and women on the earth, witnessed by all the holy angels in heaven. When the 144,000 on the earth, individually, keep God's Holy Sabbath according to the commandment, see the example in Luke 23:56, and decalogue, Exo. 20:8-10, then the sign of that Sabbath is manifest, and this sign will be a seal of their righteous act and faith, as circumcision was to faithful Abraham, Rom. 4:11, and the act ratified, by their being "sealed by the holy spirit of promise unto the day of redemption".

FOREHEADS, meaning public profession, or character, Exo. 28:36-38; Rev. 9:4; 13:16. This last text is still in the future, and has a direct bearing on this very sealing message. This ungodly power from which God's people have been called out, Rev. 18:4) will yet, as it now appears, enact a law for the express purpose of making all bow down and keep the Pope's Sabbath, (Sunday,) and all who do not, will have to cease their intercourse, for this law will not allow them to buy or sell, 17th verse. This will test the power there is in the true Sabbath, "the seal of the living God" I say amen, and amen.

Also in 14:9-11. Here we got the mark out of our foreheads and hands, by leaving her (Babylon) and embracing the true Sabbath. So when it is fully settled in our hearts, and we are sanctified through keeping it, it will be as fully known what our profession is, and that we are marked with it in our foreheads, as it was when we got our sectarian mark out of our foreheads, &c., by leaving the churches. The 12th verse shows that we were called out from them to keep the true Sabbath, for this is even now, the only commandment in dispute.

http://temcat.com/L-1-adv-pioneer-lib/J … -Bates.pdf

See: Seal As Sabbath- SDA View

The Seal of God and The Mark of the Beast
http://biblelight.net/seal.htm

Ellen White Supports 7th Day

The Whites soon adopted Bates' teaching and Mrs. White began having "visions" supporting Bates' idea. It is apparent that Bates, Mrs. White and other early Adventists believed the sealing process to have already commenced because Mrs. White wrote an article in January of 1849 entitled, "To Those who are receiving the seal of the living God". In that article she writes:

"Now is the time for the law of God to be in our minds (foreheads), and written in our hearts. ... Time has continued on a few years longer than they expected, therefore they think it may continue a few years more, and in this way their minds are being led from present truth, out after the world. In these things I saw great danger; for if the mind is filled with other things, present truth is shut out, and there is no place in our foreheads for the seal of the living God. This seal is the Sabbath."3

To Ellen White, the Sabbath marked the difference between those loyal to God and those disloyal:

"The Sabbath is the great test question. It is the line of demarkation between the loyal and true and the disloyal and transgressor. ... It is the seal of the living God."4

"Thus the distinction is drawn between the loyal and the disloyal. Those who desire to have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Thus they are distinguished from the disloyal, who have accepted a manmade institution in place of the true Sabbath. The observance of God's rest day is a mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not."5

http://www.nonegw.org/nsl/egw23.htm

Doctrinal Development of the 7th day Sabbath

Many think the SDA’s arrived at their view of the Sabbath all at once. This is incorrect because it took a number of revisions, which are not yet complete, even today. The SDA Pioneers made a number of changes to the Sabbath doctrine. The most dramatic was their initial change from Sunday to the 7th day version, which was also accompanied by placing this doctrine in the center of last day events. Then, almost a decade later, they changed the start and stop time from 6 o’clock to Sundown, thanks to JN Andrews correction of this error.

Then in 1888, the Sabbath doctrine was challenged from within by EJ Waggoner, AT Jones, and Ellen White. However, this remarkable attempt to shift the Denomination forward to a New Covenant view of the Sabbath not only failed, it divided the Denomination and destroyed the Battle Creek Empire, sending the SDA’s in full retreat to Takoma Park.

While Uriah Smith defended the 4th Commandment to his death, Ellen White surprisingly supported Waggoner’s new view of the Two Covenants. She became the theological enemy of Uriah Smith because she pushed for major doctrinal reforms that would have demanded yet another revision of the 7th day Sabbath, one that was as unthinkable as it was undefined and unspoken. But this post 1888 New Covenant revision never took take place, nor did the Advent Movement fully embrace the Gospel or move forward to the next Advent Message, the 4th, as Ellen White hoped.

Once in Takoma Park, the leaders hid, then falsified the 1888 debate, preventing the modern Adventist Community from knowing what happened, or that Sabbath Reform is still unfinished and ongoing.

Listen to Ellen White:

“Let the law take care of itself. We have been at work on the law until we get as dry as the hills of Gilboa. . . . Let us trust in the merits of Jesus" (1888 Materials 557).

She went on to amplify this response: "Some of our brethren have expressed fears that we shall dwell too much upon the subject of justification by faith, but I hope and pray that none will be needlessly alarmed; for there is no danger in presenting this doctrine as it is set forth in the Scriptures. If there had not been a remissness in the past to properly instruct the people of God, there would not now be a necessity of calling especial attention to it. . . .”

Today, very few SDA’s understand why the 1888 debate was so heated, divisive, and destructive. It was because the doctrine of the Sabbath was at issue, the greatest of all SDA doctrines. And the leaders could not imagine there could be any more “new light” that could ever change their views about the 4th Commandment.

But Ellen White did not agree:

“We must not for a moment think that there is no more light, no more truth to be given us. We are in danger of becoming careless, by our indifference losing the sanctifying power of truth, and composing ourselves with the thought, “I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing.” [Revelation 3:17.] While we must hold fast to the truths which we have already received, we must not look with suspicion upon any new light that God may send.”

Gospel Workers 1892, p. 390.1

Ellen White knew that Waggoner’s new light about the Law in Galatians would impact the Sabbath doctrine, and so too did Uriah Smith. Which is why he made sure that the Denomination would never allow any such change to the official SDA doctrine.

However, Ellen White made it clear to Smith that the SDA’s did not have all the truth about the Sabbath, as they claimed.

“There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation…”

“We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed.”

Counsels to Writers and Editors, pages 33-42

Today, we know that Bates and the SDA Pioneers, including Ellen White, embraced many hermeneutical and doctrinal errors. For example, this popular assumption that the Moral Law will judge us is false. The NT teaches that Christ and his teachings will judge us. Those that “reject” Jesus theology will be judged by that faithless omission, not by the 10 Commandments.

John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

So here is a fundamental correction of error that must take place within Adventist theology before they can comprehend the 7th day Gospel Sabbath correctly. There was never a time when the church was without doctrinal error or debate. So error is nothing new in the church, especially when it comes to eschatology and how the world will end. The SDA’s have made a great error to promote the 4th Commandment as if it represents the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. It does not. And they have better wake up and repent before it is too late.

1Cor. 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

However, theological error is not the same as fraud. The SDA Pioneers were as sincere as they were uneducated, even as they lived in a very different world from ours. But yet, they managed to make some remarkable contributions to modern theology, including their insistence that only the 7th day can be the New Covenant Sabbath for the church.

Truth is progressive and painfully slow and it is past time for the Advent Movement to grow up and repent for their many errors and move forward to find more truth. The work of Sabbath Reform is not complete, and neither is the work of clearly defining Gospel eschatology. It is time for the Adventists to meet their 21st century destiny and move forward to the next level, which the Pioneers called the 4th Angels Message.

1Cor. 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

Admit Error & Seek Truth

Let all admit that the 19th century SDA’s were full of theological error, as were all others. No denomination back then was free from false doctrine, or any now. But regardless, during this time period, many were searching for relevant Bible truth in a land where they had freedom to believe whatever they wanted. The SDA founders were honestly searching for more Gospel Truth about how the world would end. The doctrine of the Sabbath became part of the last day events, even as the 7th day Baptists encouraged all to repudiate the popular Sunday Sabbath, which was standard doctrine for Miller and all Adventists.

Consequently, the SDA’s developed a very unique, eschatological view of the 7th day Sabbath, one that was scripted to play a dramatic role in last day events. The 7th Day became the seal of God and a sign of loyalty to the creator, while Sunday was the false Sabbath, even the Mark or seal, of the beast power that persecutes Christians. This is why the SDA’s launched into a Sunday versus 7th day battle. It was not as if they were champions of religious liberty. But rather, those pushing for Sunday laws had the wrong day. More than that, they feared Sunday keepers would persecute to death those that had the truth about the Sabbath.

However, the SDA claim that the 4th commandment is binding on the church is great myth, legalism, and error. But they were not wrong to declare Sunday false doctrine, for so it is.

So who else has the truth about the Sabbath? No one. There is no true or correct doctrine of the Sabbath as yet in the church. But the SDA’s were honestly trying. And they were making progress. At least until the infamous 1888 debates, which put to rest any possibility of further Sabbath Reform or improved eschatology.

Many during this 19th century time period, including Bates, were very legalistic. Not only did Bates think the Moral law was still binding on the church, including the 4th Commandment, he also associated the sealing process of Rev 7 “with the development of character.” Thus, from the very beginning of SDA eschatology, there were legalistic errors embedded deep in their eschatology, before Uriah Smith became the champion of such awful theology. Had Bates participated in the 1888 debates, he would have been on the wrong side of the debate. Which also explains why his view of the Sabbath, and that of all SDA’s, is wrong.

Today, as we look back at the history of the church, and of Adventism, the object is not to focus on error, which is legion, but to find truth, which is often hidden, covered up with generations of myth, prejudice, and tradition. It was the search for Gospel truth that drove the Early Church, the Reformers, and the Adventists forward. It must be the same for us today.

The Adventists were a Protestant group, and as such they promoted a number of very correct points. While we know that they had many errors and mistakes in their theology, few seem to care about the truths that have been discovered, and are yet to be discovered, because of their work. This is wrong.

Critics Wrong

Here is a typical response from a critic that assumes everything SDA is false. But guess what? The SDA’s are correct on this point about the Sabbath being a doctrine of division, and on a number of other points. The NT shows that the Sabbath doctrine of Christ was a very divisive issue, separating those that followed him from those that did not. So the critics are the ones looking foolish on this point, not the SDA’s or Ellen White. (See below)

The critics mock the SDA’s by saying:

Sabbath a Dividing Issue? - Is the Sabbath the great separating truth that will decide who the true believers are? According to the prophet Ellen White, the Sabbath is what separates real believers from false believers:

"I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers; and that the Sabbath is the great question to unite the hearts of God's dear, waiting saints."17

Critics conclusion: Such a teaching is contrary to the New Testament. Never is the Sabbath described as a dividing issue by Jesus or the Apostles.

http://www.nonsda.org/study7.shtml

Critics Wrong! The NT shows that Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath caused great division, even as his Sabbath miracles became “signs” of the NC Gospel for all to see.

The fact of the matter is this: When the Gospel was preached by Christ, there was great debate and division about his active and very different doctrine of the Sabbath. The SDA’s are very correct on this point. Where they are wrong is their claim that the New Covenant Sabbath is the 4th Commandment. Jesus was not promoting the 4th Commandment, or Sunday. Rather, his new Sabbath doctrine started a war between the Old Covenant Sabbath doctrine versus the NC version, where the Law of Christ clashed with the Law of Moses and the 4th Commandment. Jesus teaches an active, 7th day Sabbath for the church, for which he was sent to the cross. He does not teach the resting, “schoolmaster” or “Tutor” Sabbath, which is the 4th Commandment, referenced in Galatians.

So not only did Jesus' NC doctrine of the Sabbath cause great debate and division all during Christ’s ministry, it also sent him to the cross. The Sabbath doctrine is a litmus test to see who is really following Christ and who is clueless. The Jews refused, and clung to the 4th Commandment, and so too have the SDA’s made this same mistake, which has caused them great debate and division that is still ongoing today.

The critics need to criticize less and study more. Finding error is not difficult, even as they too are guilty of embracing their own brand of false doctrine and myth. The SDA’s are correct: the record shows that Jesus was furious with the Jews for rejecting his New Covenant doctrine of the 7th day. From the very beginning, the Jews were so enraged about Christ’s new view of Sabbath that they plotted to kill him. There was great division over the Sabbath all during Christ’s ministry.

Too bad the SDA’s embraced the WRONG 7th day Sabbath. This is their great error. They have embraced Moses and the 4th Commandment instead of Christ and his active, guilt-free, 7th day Sabbath. The SDA’s have played the role of the unbelieving Jews, for which they must repent or suffer even more consequences.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

Luke 12:51 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;

Mark 3:4 And He said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save a life or to kill?” But they kept silent.

Mark 3:5 After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He *said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored.

Mark 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately began conspiring with the Herodians against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

See also:

http://www.truthorfables.com/Seal_Of_God.htm

http://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/957.2#

http://www.nonsda.org/study7.shtml

The critics should remember what Jesus teaches about correcting others. In this application, unless one has a fully functional Sabbath doctrine, they should not criticize others that don’t. The fact of the matter is that no critic, church, or denomination has a correct doctrine of the New Covenant Sabbath, which explains why Jesus judges the last church as the worst church, demanding repentance of all. No exceptions for the SDA’s or their many critics, much less the confused Sunday keepers.

Luke 6:41 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Luke 6:42 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

Conclusion:

Without the SDA’s paradigm shifting work, which included many errors, few would know the truth that the Sunday Sabbath is false. More than that, their emphasis on the correctness of the 7th day has positioned the church to find the genuine Gospel, including the New Covenant Sabbath of Christ and thus complete Sabbath Reform and prepare the church for the Eschaton. (2nd Coming)

Jesus’ active, guilt free, doctrine of the 7th day will surprise, condemn, and divide the last church, showing that all in Laodicea are “blind” to the genuine Gospel of Christ, unprepared for the 2nd Coming and the Judgment of the world, which is near.

All will be stunned at the discovery of such long-standing error. After all, the Gospels are full of Jesus’ Sabbath instruction. How could the SDA’s be so blind as to get this wrong? How could the Sunday keepers?

There is only one Christ and one New Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. When the New Covenant Sabbath teachings of Christ are fully understood, so too will the Gospel of Christ be comprehended, as well as credible, contemporary, eschatology.

It is time for the SDA’s to go forward and repent of their many errors, including their false view that Jesus teaches the 4th Commandment. Christ teaches an active, guilt-free, 7th Day Sabbath for the church, which is the completion of Sabbath Reform. Here is genuine, Gospel truth for the last church.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 10-23-15 9:30 pm

Seal of God & the Sabbath

Darren rates Tom Norris’ Answer:

Knowledgeability - 2
Clarity of response - 10
Politeness - 10
Nomination - No
Prestige Point – 10

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm

Darren said: I do realize you did some research and put forth some effort into the answer however, many of your points was in no way related to my question, and the way I see it, was only an attempt to put down or show how you believe the Seventh Day Adventist Church is wrong in most of their beliefs.

(Some of which were wrong as they happened before they were, before the SDA church was created. It was the Millerite movement and not the SDA church, many others also make this common mistake though, as the church did derive out of it, but not until 1863.)

Tom replied: I suggest you re-read my answer, because you have misunderstood many things.

First, my answer was not a “put down” of the SDA church, but rather, a defense of their 19th century quest to find the New Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath.

Today, the SDA’s are best positioned to find the genuine Gospel Sabbath of Christ, as well as explain the final events. So I am encouraging them to become honest and go forward with their end time work, which includes the completion of Sabbath Reform.

Second, as you know, the SDA Pioneers viewed the Seal and a specific Sign in Revelation as the 7th day Sabbath. My answer addressed your question about these points and underscored the fact that the SDA’s transformed the Sabbath into an eschatological doctrine that would play a role in last Gospel movement (in Rev 18, just before the great Tribulation and the end of the world).

No one had ever made the Sabbath a Gospel test as the SDA’s have done. This is one of their theological contributions to the Laodicean Church, which is not fully correct as yet. Now they need to update this misunderstood Sabbath doctrine and get it fully correct, stunning the world and the church in the process.

Third, as for errors, I was defending the SDA’s by 1) making the point that even the apostles embraced theological error; and 2) that the SDA critics today are themselves full of error. Which is to say that 3) no one should throw stones at the SDA Sabbath, unless they have the fully correct Sabbath doctrine.

However, NO church today has a fully correct doctrine of the New Covenant Sabbath. NOT ONE!

Consequently, people should not be so hard on the SDA Pioneers, especially Ellen White, when they get things wrong. Every church is full of error, even as eschatology is very difficult to understand. Moreover, Ellen White never claimed to be infallible, much less theologically correct at all times, regardless of her visions.

The White Estate has done a horrible, incompetent, job explaining Ellen White’s life and views, for which they must repent and correct the record.

I make no apologies for pushing back against this idea that everything SDA is wrong. The SDA’s have a lot of truth, which needs to be better understood and utilized by the church today.

Fourth, I also made the point that the SDA’s are correct about the 7th day, as far as the day is concerned. Sunday cannot be the New Covenant Sabbath. However, they are wrong to think Jesus teaches the 4th Commandment. They need more study on this point to see what kind of 7th day Sabbath Jesus promotes.

The Reformed Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Fifth: My over-arching point was for the SDA’s to keep pushing TRUTH forward. This is where they went wrong in Battle Creek and this is still their problem today. They no longer want new truth, rather, they are content to try and defend the errors of the past.

This is what happened in 1888. Unable to resolve the theological controversy about the law and the Gospel, the leaders, over the strong objections of Ellen White, stopped the discussion. The old view prevailed and both Ellen White and Waggoner were exiled, as if removing the reformers from Battle Creek would make the issues go away.

It did not work. Within 12 years after 1888, the unfinished and unresolved conflict led to theological confusion and pluralism; then to the collapse of Traditional SDA theology and the Battle Creek Empire.

This is why the SDA’s retreated to Takoma Park, where they proceeded to hide the 1888 record and repeat their same mistakes, including this arrogant, anti-Gospel attitude that they have no errors and need no new truth.

In the 20th century, Dr. Ford was treated at Glacier View much like Waggoner and Ellen White were treated in 1888, with the same predictable results. The leaders refused Gospel Reform, which resulted in confusion, debate, and pluralism, which caused another great SDA schism.

After Glacier View, the Takoma Park Empire collapsed, and millions of former SDA’s left the church, leaving it empty and corrupt, like a rotten tree in the forest, ready to fall with the next storm. This is where the SDA church is today, and it is not a good place.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

How much more damage has to take place before the SDA’s repent and tell the truth about 1888 and then the Sabbath, and then the IJ?

It is time for the SDA’s to repent for being so wrong, about so, much for so long. They need to 1) stop denying the facts of history and theology and 2) start searching for new Gospel truth and insight.

The Advent Movement needs serious Gospel Reform and theological correction, and it must start with the unresolved issues from1888 and then Glacier View. Neither of these theological debates have been honestly or correctly explained to the Adventist Community. Nor have these critical issues been resolved.

When they are; there will be a paradigm shift in Adventist theology, including a new and improved Sabbath doctrine. Then the Advent Movement can go forward.

Darren said: Please do not ask me for specifics. I will not respond. You are the one claiming to be the expert. Do more homework. I only had one simple question. You gave a whole thesis on many points of what you thought wrong of Seventh Day Adventist theology.

Tom replied: First, I am not asking you for any information. I have more than enough sources to correctly understand Adventist history and theology without your opinions.

Second; You have also asked others this same question about the Seal:

God's Seal
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Moreover, it seems you asked the question in such a way as to get a negative response from the critics, which you approved with an 8 out of 10.

So you are not searching for truth about the Sabbath, but for a way to show up the SDA’s and make them look wrong and foolish about their view of the Sabbath.

No wonder you did not like my response, because it backfired. I did not say what you expected or what you wanted to hear. I defended the SDA Pioneers in their quest for more truth, and said that such an attitude should continue today. The church needs more truth about the Sabbath doctrine, because what everyone is teaching is flat out false and wrong.

So I stand by the answer, even if you are having difficulty comprehending it.

Darren said: It is not my intention, sir, to be demeaning or disrespectful in any way. I know you meant well and wanted only to be thorough in leading me in the right direction, which I gather is away from wrong doctrine. I thank you for that. Truly I do. I am neutral, believing in religious freedom. But you are wrong about other accounts of what their current beliefs are as well, even with your supposed background.

Tom said: First, no one is neutral about religion. Making such a plea on the Judgment Day is suicide. On that Day, you had better understand the Gospel and confidently tell the Judge, Jesus, that you stand 100% for the Gospel. Otherwise, you have no hope my friend.

Second, if you have any facts to show where I am wrong about either history or theology, please educate me, and all others. It is truth that we want, so correct away.

Third, the real point of my answer was to encourage the Adventist Community to stop censoring the critics, and defending error. Rather, they need to admit error so they can make corrections and focus on more truth, pushing Adventism forward to a higher Gospel level.

Fourth: The 3rd Angels Message, as a prophetic paradigm, is full of myth and error and is in fact dead. Terminated. Completed. Finished. The SDA’s must now move forward to the next level of prophetic truth, which the Pioneers called the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18. This is what they predicted all along would take place at the end of time, and now there is no other option.

Today it is a waste of time and resources to try and defend the many errors of the past. The focus must be on repentance and on the search for more truth so that the Advent Movement can reach the next theological level, the 4th. The 3rd is past.

Darren said: I also never believe in anyone saying that a person or group is wrong and should repent for in doing so is judging them and who gave you the right to judge?

Tom said: Jesus is the judge, even as his words judge us in the Judgment Day, which is the 2nd Coming.

John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

How we react to the Gospel teachings of Christ, determines our eternal fate. Thus, if we fail to confess the genuine Gospel, and can’t explain the teachings of Christ correctly, we are lost. Religious double-talk and sanctification will be worthless on the Judgment Day.

Matt. 12:37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;

Jesus teaches that the Gospel is about judgment, even we must judge between truth and error; between a false Christ and the true.

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Jesus often asked questions of his followers that would force them to think, question, and make a judgment on a topic. Contrary to your view, he trained his disciples to make judgments about people and theology.

John 7:23 “If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath?

John 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

In the above passage, Jesus is teaching about the New Covenant Sabbath. He was scolding the Jews for not understanding or believing in his active Gospel Sabbath. Their judgment was very wrong. And so too is anyone today that refutes what Jesus teaches about the Gospel or the Sabbath.

Luke 7:40 And Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he replied, “Say it, Teacher.”

Luke 7:41 “A moneylender had two debtors: one owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.

Luke 7:42 “When they were unable to repay, he graciously forgave them both. So which of them will love him more?”

Luke 7:43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.” And He said to him, “You have judged correctly.”

In the example above, Jesus is asking his disciples to judge which people love the most. And he used money, debt, and forgiveness to help make them understand his point.

They actually got it right. But you did not. Because you think Jesus teaches we are not to judge people or question their theology. But this is false. Jesus teaches that to understand the Gospel, one must make many judgments about both.

As for condemnation; everyone is already judged as guilty and condemned. This is the default position for all mankind.

Rom. 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

John 3:17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

2Cor. 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

Those that teach or preach the Gospel must acknowledge this default status, presenting the Gospel as the only way of salvation. Thus, there must be an awareness and judging of the situation, so that repentance and faith can take hold. Then, if the Gospel is rejected, condemnation stands.

Mark 6:12 They went out and preached that men should repent.

Mark 6:11 “Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.”

The Gospel is not a game. It is a serious, life and death formula that few today comprehend correctly. Misunderstand it at your own risk.

1Pet. 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Darren said: I'd be very careful of doing so (Judging). The Pharisee's did the same of Jesus and picked up stones against many of His disciples and they and the Romans put them all to death, thinking they were right in doing so and the Jews thought they were doing God's will just as you are.

Tom said: Jesus teaches that judging others is not without rules or consequences.

Matt. 7:2 “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Those that teach the Gospel have nothing to fear by judging sinners as doomed or defending false doctrine. They are offering pardon through the Gospel, even as they will be judged, by the same Gospel.

The Jews misunderstood the scriptures and rejected Christ. They judged Jesus to be a false prophet and his Gospel from the devil. The fact that the Jews claimed to be right is beside the point; they were very wrong. The apostles were correct to stand up and condemn their great error and so are we today.

Acts 7:51 “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Acts 7:52 “Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become;

Acts 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.”

No doubt you feel this is too strong. But the truth is never too strong. Truth is truth. The Jews were great sinners that killed their Messiah. This should not be a difficult judgment to make, because this is what the facts show, and it is the judgment of Christ and the apostles.

The Gospel demands that we follow the genuine Christ and not the legion of imposters. This means we must also make the correct judgment over and over about good and evil, always seeking truth, even as we recognize error and false doctrine and run from it. Those that follow the genuine Christ have an obligation to warn those that are following a fraud.

The Gospel is not a potluck affair whereby one can choose whatever doctrines they want. Which is why there has always been those in the church to reprove and correct, showing the difference between truth and error.

2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

2Tim. 4:5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

I make no apologies for bluntly promoting the genuine Gospel of Christ, which is accompanied with his active, 7th day Sabbath.

Darren said: Wrong as they indeed may or may not be it is not for us to say or to judge. We are to love them. Along with Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Atheists, etc. etc. without judging them. Share the gospel with them and see them through the heart & eyes of Christ & in His love. Period.

Tom said: If you can’t understand how wrong it was for the Jews to reject the Gospel and murder their Messiah, then you are a very confused, lost soul. And if you think the JW’s, Mormons, RC’s, etc are promoting Jesus’ Gospel correctly, then your ability to judge anything is obviously broken. Christ does not agree.

Those that follow Christ will think and judge like Christ.

1Cor. 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

Many misunderstand the words of Christ and thus misunderstand the Gospel, which is not meant to unite good and evil, but to divide them. While the Gospel features love, it also judges everyone, including those that promote it.

Luke 12:51 “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;

John 7:43 So a division occurred in the crowd because of Him.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.

To reject the Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, is the greatest of sins, for which there is no forgiveness. This is what the Jews did, and so too the Gentile Church. Anyone, or any denomination, like the Mormons or SDA’s, etc. that refuse to repent of their many false doctrines, and embrace the genuine Gospel, are doomed. THIS is part of the Gospel.

So the final Gospel proclamation begins with the premise that all are under the judgments of God and thus all must repent and believe the Gospel.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

In conclusion, Jesus has judged the last church as being blind, naked, and lost. I agree with his assessment in the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church (Rev 3).

It is time for the Adventist Community, and all others, to agree with Christ and repent of their many sins and false doctrines. Including the universal errors about the Sabbath.

It is time for all to seek for the genuine Gospel, which includes Jesus active, guilt free, 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

tom_norris · 06-04-16 10:48 am

Sabbath Views From a New Adventist
Posted in the Seventh-day Adventist Forum
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/sev … 8RSLVEOHQG
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Tom Norris said: The Old Covenant Law, including the 10 C’s, was only given to Moses and the Jews. Christians, the New Israel, are not under the Old Covenant. They live under the New Covenant; under the “law of Christ.”

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith

1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

While the SDA’s were correct to declare Sunday Sabbath false doctrine, their version of the 7th day Sabbath is also wrong. They have embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews, not the New Covenant version from Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath. They are following Moses, not Christ.

The 4th Commandment was very strict. It was both a Moral and Ceremonial law, even as the Sabbath was a perpetual sign of God’s ownership of Old Covenant Israel. The 4th Commandment is not to be confused with the New Covenant Sabbath that Christ teaches in the Gospels. Same day, different Covenant and doctrine.

Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Ex. 31:16 ‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’

John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

Jesus was not following the 4th Commandment as some assume. He does not teach a resting, non-working, Sabbath, either for Sunday or the 7th day. Christ did not practice, promote, or endorse the 4th Commandment as the SDAs claim. Which is why the Jewish leaders were so upset with him. Jesus pushed back against the Jews and declared that the NC Sabbath is also for WORK, not rest. Such a point stunned and confused the Jews, just as it does today.

John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Few today understand that Christ claimed his Father told him to explain the active, priestly, New Covenant Sabbath to the Jews. But the Jews were horrified at such a claim by Christ, as well as such a lawbreaking doctrine. It was beyond their comprehension, just as it seems today.

The SDA’s have made a tragic assumption to think that Jesus teaches the 4th Commandment; or that the original Sabbath in Eden, was the same as was given to Moses and the Jews and then to the church. These points are wrong.

There was no Old Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath until Judaism, and even then, it was a temporary religion that would be surpassed by the New Covenant and the teachings (law) of Christ. The church is not bound by Moses and his law, but by Christ and what he teaches about all things, including the Sabbath.

Gal. 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

This passage is about the Moral law, not just the ceremonial law, as the SDA’s have claimed all these years. This is what the 1888 debates were all about. Ellen White came down on the right side of the Gospel and agreed with this correct view of Galatians.

Christians are NOT under any Old Covenant Law, whether it is Circumcision, Jewish food laws or the Festivals, like Passover, or even the weekly Sabbath law of the 4th Commandment. Such have been abolished in the NC.

Heb. 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

SbG said: Just as you are a "murderer" without actually killing someone if you hate them, you are a "Sabbath-breaker" by your attitude about the Sabbath before you actually do (or don't do) that which God asks of you ... and that covers everything from flat out refusing to keep the Sabbath to believing it's a day to catch up on your own entertainment.

Tom Norris said: While Jesus teaches that thoughts such as murder and lust are sinful, he does NOT teach that thinking about working on the Sabbath is sinful. In fact, he teaches that those that follow him can work on the 7th day and remain innocent.

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Matt. 12:7 “But if you had known what this means, ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Let everyone understand, Jesus teaches that it is LAWFUL to work on the 7th day Sabbath. But yet, many SDAs think he teaches it is sinful to even “think” about work. Most who claim to follow Christ are only following a legalistic mirage, a religious delusion that does not exist in the Word.

Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

The fact that you placed such legalistic words in Jesus mouth is telling and very wrong. No wonder people can’t understand the Gospel Sabbath; they refuse to let Christ teach them because they are too busy instructing Christ and twisting his words to fit their religious opinions. Pity. Your Christ is false.

SBG said: Anyone who has the spirit of the law written on his heart would never claim the Sabbath is not a moral issue.

Tom Norris said: I agree that the OC Sabbath is a moral issue, and so too the NC Sabbath that Christ claims to be its’ Lord and protector.

Second, there is no such Bible phrase as “the spirit of the law.” This is a made up term that neither Jesus nor anyone else used. Why are you adding fictitious doctrines to the Bible? (Answer: to support false doctrine).

It is the “spirit of Christ” that we must have, NOT the spirit of the law. Away with such Old Covenant, legalistic, anti-Gospel views. You have been indoctrinated into a false view of the Gospel by the SDA’s and it is time for all to repent.

Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Rom. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Rom. 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Those that seek the spirit of the law and try to obey the law, including the 4th Commandment; have fallen from grace. They are Judaizers that stand on the wrong side of the Gospel.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The truth about the New Covenant Sabbath condemns every church in the world, starting with the SDAs. Let everyone read what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels and repent.

SBG said: Tom Norris, your premise that the priests worked on the Sabbath, therefore, there are two versions of the Sabbath commandment, and that the Sabbath of the 4th commandment is irrelevant today, is false.

Tom said: This discussion about the Sabbath is not about personal assumptions or opinions. It is a self-evident fact that there were TWO different doctrines of the Sabbath in the Old Covenant.

Moreover, Jesus makes this specific point during his Sabbath debates. Why deny what Jesus teaches? Why not accept the truth that there were TWO very different doctrines of the 7th day Sabbath?

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

In addition, Jesus does not teach that the Sabbath is irrelevant for the church. Rather, as Lord of the NC Sabbath, he is changing it from an Old Covenant doctrine of forced rest under penalty of death to a New Covenant doctrine of Gospel freedom and salvation.

What a pity that most Christians today (both Sunday and 7th day keepers) have embraced the OC Sabbath, proving that they do not understand the Gospel or follow Christ as they assume.

SBG said: What the priests did in connection with the sanctuary service, although it was "work", was NOT commerce, working to earn a living or for personal gain or work that can be done on one of the other six days of the week which is what the 4th commandment forbids.

Tom Norris said: Why are you playing word games? The 4th Commandment did not allow for any type of work, commerce or otherwise. Thus gathering sticks for a fire was a capitol crime worthy of death. UNLESS you were a Levite, then you could do all manner of work, including building fires and cooking and cleaning, etc. Proving that there were TWO different doctrines of the Sabbath; one for the people and another for the Priests.

Do not deny what is so clear and plain. The fact that most everyone today has overlooked these facts, is beside the point. Jesus is a theological genius. He has not overlooked these critical details that explain and define his Gospel Sabbath.

It is time for all to stop defending their many false views and assumptions about the Sabbath and learn from Christ. Let all go to the Gospels in search of truth, not to defend what they think is truth.

While Jesus has set the proper example of going to church and worshipping God on the 7th day, he also teaches that it is not a sin to work or play on the Sabbath. This idea that only healthcare workers can work on the Sabbath for money is utter nonsense.

All that follow Christ are free to do any personal or commercial work on the Sabbath. As priests of God, they are guiltless. Such a Gospel Sabbath seems too good to be true, but yet, this is what Jesus teaches. Those that think otherwise are following a false Christ.

If this active Sabbath seems sinful and wrong, then congratulations, you think like the Old Covenant Jews that killed Christ.

It is time for Old Covenant Adventism to shift forward to the New Covenant.

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

tom_norris · 06-09-16 10:25 am

Someone said: There is nothing in scripture about Jesus telling the Jews to stop worshipping on Saturday, nothing about telling them to work on his sabbath day, nothing about him having his shop open on Saturday, nothing about him telling the Jews to worship on Sunday.

Tom said: Jesus did not teach that worship of God should be stopped on the 7th day, rather, it was the prohibition against work that was being changed in all four Gospels. Jesus reformed the 7th day Sabbath, he did not change it to Sunday or teach that it was sinful to work on this day.

Someone said: In teaching that Jesus healed during the sabbath day was work you take up the same flawed logic the Pharisees tried to use against Jesus. Jesus disagreed with the Pharisees and made it clear that healing, watering your animals, saving them from drowning if they fall in a well or pit, and feeding yourself wasn't work by doing good.

Tom said: Jesus teaches that that those who follow him can work on the 7th day without sin. They can even move furniture on the 7th day as well as gather food, light fires, cook, etc. This is why the Jews became so angry with their Christ. Read all four Gospels and see for yourself.

Someone said: Jesus ministry wasn't about "fulfilling" the law so the rest of the world wouldn't have to become Jews, it was about teaching us to do good for others, animals and nature.

Tom said: Jesus teaches salvation by faith, not by doing good and following the law. Most do not understand Jesus or his Gospel, much less his Gospel Sabbath.

Someone said: Stopping at a strangers field while you were traveling and picking grapes or grain to feed yourself wasn't work Tom.

Tom said: Wrong. As the Jews traveled from Egypt to the promised land, they needed food. God provided manna 6 days a week. Why? Because they were not allowed to harvest food on the 7th day Sabbath. So from the early days, it was FORBIDDEN to do what Jesus disciples did, and everyone knew this theological fact. Jesus was making a point, which you have missed. The Pharisees did not.

Ex. 16:29 “See, 1he LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”

Ex. 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Ex. 16:35 The sons of Israel ate the manna forty years, until they came to an inhabited land; they ate the manna until they came to the border of the land of Canaan.

Someone said: The teaching of God in the Old Testament reveals God allowed this and instructed his people to let travelers do so. God never intended that someone traveling through Israel should starve on the sabbath because no businesses were open to sell them food. This custom was designed to let travelers, that often included children to stop and have a bit to eat. God said it would be a good thing for the traveler in need and the owner of the field that shared.

Tom said: Wrong. God taught the Jews—for 40 years-- that under no circumstances were they to gather food on the 7th day. Under the Old Covenant, it was very sinful and wrong to do what Jesus disciples did. However, Jesus represents the NEW COVENANT, where things are very different, including the Gospel Sabbath where work is no longer sinful.

Matt. 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.

Matt. 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.”

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple 1break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

When the Gospel teachings of Jesus are fully understood, so too his active, 7th day Sabbath.

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

See: Sabbath Views From a New Adventist
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/sev … 8RSLVEOHQG

tom_norris · 06-09-16 3:39 pm

SDA said: Tom, a stranger gathering a bit of raw grain in their hands from your field so they wouldn't starve as they traveled by was a bit different then the owner of the field harvesting his crop. The Hebrews traveling through the wilderness eating manna has nothing to do with a stranger traveling through Israel and stopping at the field of a Jew and picking a handful of grain. The Hebrews in the wilderness didn't own any fields, didn't grow anything.

Tom said: Wrong. First, neither Jesus nor his disciples were considered “strangers.” They were Jews traveling in their own County.

Second, there is nothing in this passage about starvation, so this was not an emergency situation whatsoever. They could have waited until the Sabbath was over, or better yet, used the “preparation day” to prepare food, like all good Jews were supposed to do.

Third, the prohibition against gathering food (manna) on the Sabbath was given to the Jews at a time when none of them owned any farms or fields. They were all “strangers” traveling to their new County. So there is no disqualifying “difference” here as you pretend.

All your points fail.

The Torah is clear; no gathering of food on the 7th day. Jesus knew this law and had earlier in Matthew cited the manna story. But Jesus was not promoting the OC. He was teaching the NC, which contains an active 7th day Sabbath.

Matt. 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”

Let all understand; The Sabbath debate in Matthew 12 is directly linked to God giving Manna to the Jews in the wilderness. Here was a 40 year test about Sabbath obedience-relating to gathering food, which Jesus refused to embrace or follow. This stunned the Jews, even as it should shock us today. JESUS DID NOT DEFEND OR PROMOTE THE 4TH COMMANDMENT. He taught a very different doctrine, based on the Gospel and the Priesthood of all Believers.

Here is the manna story. The Jews were enraged that Jesus was breaking the Sabbath for all to see. They had a point.

Ex. 16:16 “This is what the LORD has commanded, ‘Gather of it every man as much as he should eat; you shall take an omer apiece according to the number of persons each of you has in his tent.’”

Ex. 16:17 The sons of Israel did so, and some gathered much and some little.

Ex. 16:18 When they measured it with an omer, he who had gathered much had no excess, and he who had gathered little had no lack; every man gathered as much as he should eat.

Ex. 16:19 Moses said to them, “Let no man leave any of it until morning.”

Ex. 16:20 But they did not listen to Moses, and some left part of it until morning, and it bred worms and became foul; and Moses was angry with them.

Ex. 16:21 They gathered it morning by morning, every man as much as he should eat; but when the sun grew hot, it would melt.

Ex. 16:22 Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,

Ex. 16:23 then he said to them, “This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and ball that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.”

Ex. 16:24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.

Ex. 16:25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.

Ex. 16:26 “Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.”

Ex. 16:27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.

Ex. 16:28 Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?

Ex. 16:29 “See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”

Ex. 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Ex. 16:31 The house of Israel named it manna, and it was like coriander seed, white, and its taste was like wafers with honey.

Under the Old Covenant, it was a capitol crime to gather sticks on the 7th day. Those that disobeyed and tried to gather manna on the Sabbath could find none. So unlike gathering sticks, no one was ever stoned to death for trying to break the law about gathering food. The Jews learned that they would go hungry if they failed to properly prepare on Friday.

The Pharisees correctly understood that Jesus was not following the law of Moses, of which the manna was a “test” by God to see if the Jews would obey. Jesus disregard of such OC traditions branded him a rebel and lawbreaker.

Deut. 8:1 “All the commandments that I am commanding you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to give to your forefathers.

Deut. 8:2 “You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

Deut. 8:3 “He humbled you and let you be hungry, and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the LORD.

SDA said: Love fulfills the law. If the law was abolished love is meaningless.

Tom said: Law defines sin, not the Gospel. They are very different and opposing paradigms.

See: Law & Gospel; http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

1John 3:16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

The Gospels are full of Jesus New Covenant Sabbath teaching. No church or denomination today follows his Sabbath sayings. Not the Sunday keepers or the SDAs that claim to be Sabbath experts.

It is time for all to understand the Gospel and the New Covenant Sabbath and follow Christ.

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

tom_norris · 06-24-16 9:43 am

Good Works or Good Rest?

Tom Norris wrote:

Jesus teaches good works on the 7th day Sabbath, not good rest.

SDA said: No, he teaches rest from that which gives us increase, entertains us, in other words, benefits self ... a lesson in unselfishness!

Tom Norris said: Wrong! You are not paying attention to the Word. You, and many others, have allowed the SDAs to train your mind to think this way. Such religious spin has made legions blind and deaf to the genuine Gospel of Christ.

It is time for everyone, on all sides of the debate, to re-study the Gospel Story with an open mind, seeking only Gospel truth. We must go the Gospels and hear/understand the teachings of Christ, being careful not to add or takeaway from his holy theology.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

So stop all the spin and the double-talk that is only calculated to defend tradition. Do not embrace the doctrinal platform of any denomination, but rather, open your eyes to the Light of the World.

John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

Legions of Sunday and 7th day keepers assume the doctrine of the Lord’s Day, or the Christian Sabbath, involves rest. This was the doctrinal predicate for the Blue Laws, which made it illegal to work on Sunday. But where does Jesus teach a resting Sabbath? Moses teaches such a doctrine, but not Christ. While there was a time when Jesus took his disciples away for rest, it was NOT on the 7th day.

Mark 6:31 And He said to them, “Come away by yourselves to a secluded place and rest a while.” (For there were many people coming and going, and they did not even have time to eat.)

Mark 6:32 They went away in the boat to a secluded place by themselves.

Unless you can find Jesus teaching Sabbath rest from that which gives us increase, entertains us, or benefits self; you must repent for promoting such error. The apostles speak for Jesus; what they wrote about Jesus view of the Sabbath is genuine, unchangeable, truth. No one has any right to revise and spin Jesus teachings. So stop doing it.

Let everyone understand; Jesus did not teach anyone to rest on the 7th day Sabbath. Nor did he follow the 4th Commandment and remain inactive. Rather, he teaches that the Gospel view of the 7th day Sabbath is not about rest-- but activity. Which is the OPPOSITE of what the 4th Commandment teaches.

Jesus also claimed that his new Sabbath was designed by God, even to the point of setting things up for Christs Sabbath breaking lessons.

John 9:3 Jesus answered, It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

John 9:4 We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

John 9:5 While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.

The Gospel Sabbath is not the same as the Sabbath of the Old Covenant Jews. Under the New Covenant, the 7th day is not only for Gospel Worship and fellowship, but also for work, NOT REST.

There are scores of passages in the Gospels where Jesus debates and teaches about his New Covenant Sabbath. What he teaches in those passages is what those that follow him must also embrace. (The fact that so few have any idea of what he teaches is beside the point.)

Let everyone pay attention to Jesus view of the 7th day Sabbath. He does NOT teach, nor did he observe, the OC doctrine of the 4th Commandment. It never happened any more than he changed the Sabbath to Sunday, or declared himself to be the Sabbath, as some claim today.

This popular claim that Jesus teaches a resting, non-working Sabbath is pure fiction. There is no such Gospel teaching as you assume. Many are making up doctrines and pretending that Jesus supports this or that point, when he does not. The SDAs also claim Jesus paid tithe, observed Jewish food laws, and believed in the IJ. But none of these wishful points are true, and neither is this easily refuted claim that Jesus teaches obedience to the 4th Commandment.

Let everyone stop defending fiction and tradition, and repent for misunderstanding what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.
[
Tom wrote: Christ was not, not, not, promoting, defending, or obeying, the 4th Commandment, as the SDAs so foolishly teaches. He was breaking the Old Covenant Law for all to see. Which is why the Jews became so angry with Christ over the Sabbath. The Gospels are clear on this point.

SDA said: No, the gospels are quite clear that what Jesus was against was the dozens of man-made laws and traditions the Israelite leaders had come up with regarding the Sabbath.

Tom said: God taught Moses that no Israelite could work on the Sabbath unless they were a Levite. Jesus was not a Levite. Thus, by Gods command, the Jews were not allowed to gather sticks or light a fire, or do any work, including healing on the Sabbath. Which is why the 1st century Jews told Christ he could heal on the other 6 days but not on the Sabbath.

So this is not about man made traditions but about the transition from the OC to the NC. The Jews loved the OC and thus they refused the NC. The SDAs have done the same thing. That is why they pretend that Jesus teaches the OC doctrine of the Sabbath, paid tithe, and observed Jewish food laws. The SDAs are following a false and worthless Christ, even as their view of the Sabbath is very wrong.

SDA said: The 4th commandment did not forbid taking care of our necessities or the necessities of others or the necessities one's animals.

Tom said: The 4th Commandment did not allow for much of any necessities, (unless one was a Levite). No fires, no cooking, no writing, no healing, etc. etc. Moreover, Jesus Sabbath healings were never emergencies. They all could have waited until the Sabbath was over.

In fact, history shows that the Jews were not allowed fight on the Sabbath, even if attacked. Many died because they refused to defend themselves on the 7th day. The fact that the Jews made up additional rules does not invalidate the original laws.

SDA said: No one need go hungry, thirsty or neglected on the Sabbath.

Tom said: False. That is exactly what happened if a Jew refused to follow the Sabbath laws for gathering manna. Your view that the 4th Commandment allowed people to take care of their food need on the Sabbath is false. Those that failed to gather twice as much manna on Friday, went hungry on the Sabbath. You really don’t know the Bible as well as you assume.

Ex. 16:23 then he said to them, “This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is a sabbath observance, a holy sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.”

Ex. 16:24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.

Ex. 16:25 Moses said, “Eat it today, for today is a sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.

Ex. 16:26 “Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the sabbath, there will be none.”

Ex. 16:27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.

Ex. 16:28 Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions?

Ex. 16:29 “See, the LORD has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”

Ex. 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Those Jews that followed the 4th Commandment, had food on the 7th day. Those that refused to obey God’s Old Covenant commandments went HUNGRY. Here was a 40-year lesson about how important it was not to work on the Sabbath.

Deut. 8:16 “In the wilderness He fed you manna which your fathers did not know, that He might humble you and that He might test you, to do good for you in the end.

SDA said: The Sabbath was to be a "delight" ... not a drudgery as the Israelite leaders had made it. That was the point that Jesus was making by consistently healing on the Sabbath.

Tom said: Wrong. Jesus was not showing the Jews how to observe the 4th Commandment. If you think so, then show us where in the Gospels he teaches such observance? Jesus Sabbath healings showed that 1) God was pleased with him, and 2) that God had planned an active, new and improved, doctrine of the Sabbath for the church.

SDA said: He did not "break" the 4th commandment. To say he did is to say he sinned. He did not live differently from the way he commanded Israel to live. He succeeded where Israel failed.

Tom said: Jesus broke many Old Covenant laws, including the 4th Commandment, as he taught the New Covenant. But that does not mean he sinned. He did not. Jesus is greater than the Law or the Temple, even as he is the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath.

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

Tom wrote: Moreover, when Jesus instructed the healed man to pick up his bed and walk around town on the Sabbath, he was teaching that manual labor is not a sin on the New Covenant Sabbath. Neither is lighting fires, harvesting, traveling, or doing anything that was forbidden under the Old Covenant.

SDA said: He didn't tell the man to pick up his bed and walk around town with it.

Tom said: Jesus healed 7 days a week. Moreover, it was his style to ask the healed person to pick up his bedroll and go home. Thus advertising and proving the miracle for all to see.

Mark 2:9 “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’?

Mark 2:10 “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” — He *said to the paralytic,

Mark 2:11 “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.”

Mark 2:12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”

Jesus did not stop healing on the Sabbath. Moreover, he gave the same command to pick up the bedroll on the Sabbath as he did on the other six days.

John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”

John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”

John 5:11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’”

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

SDA said: Once again, your understanding of the 4th commandment is totally legalistic. The spirit of the law is love. If you forget that, you get lost in legalism.

Tom said: Ha! Yes. The Law is very legalistic. Moreover, there is no such term as the spirit of law. You are making things up because you don’t know what you are talking about. You do not understand the Gospel correctly, much less how the law functions and for what purpose. You and all the SDAs are lost in a dense forest of anti-Gospel legalism.

No Christian is under ANY Old Covenant Laws. Period. Not circumcision, food laws, or keeping the 10 Commandments, of which the 4th Commandment is a part. Christians are only under the teaching of Christ, which is the law of Christ and the Commandments of God in the New Covenant. Whatever Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is correct doctrine for the church. He does not teach what you claim.

Tom Norris wrote: Read the Gospel debates in John 5, 7, and 9 and learn the truth about the Gospel Sabbath from Christ, not from Moses or the legalistic SDAs.

SDA said: Here's the thing: it's your view of the 4th commandment that is legalistic. The gospel didn't change the ten commandments. The gospel was necessary precisely because God can't change his principle of love of which the Ten Commandments are merely an expression.

Tom said: The Gospel does not serve the Law as you assume. The 10 Commandments are part of Jewish teaching, law, and history. The Gospel has surpassed Judaism, rendering it obsolete. The Law is not the Gospel, even though many think otherwise.

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith;

Moreover, Christ is the definition of Love, not Law, even as he commands us to love one another. Jesus nowhere commands obedience to the 4th Commandment.

John 15:12 “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

Whatever Jesus teaches about 10 C’s, is what the church must follow. Jesus view of the Sabbath trumps Moses. So why is anyone trying to follow Moses? Jesus teaches an active, guiltless Sabbath, which is very different from the 4th Commandment. Moreover, he links his Gospel Sabbath with Eternal Life.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

There are so many passages where Jesus is teaching his active, 7th day Sabbath, that it is astonishing that the SDAs missed all this material. While they are correct about the 7th day, they are very wrong about the Sabbath doctrine. This must be corrected before the Advent Movement can go forward.

Tom wrote: Few comprehend what Jesus teaches about the law and the Gospel, much less the Sabbath where these two opposing paradigms clash. When the Gospel is better understood, so too the Sabbath. Let everyone take a closer look at the Sabbath debates in all four Gospels and learn the genuine New Covenant Sabbath from Christ, the Lord of the active, 7th day Sabbath.

SDA said: I honestly don't think you comprehend what you are implicating.

Tom said: I sympathize with your lack of Gospel understanding. Few religious leaders understand the Gospel today, so no wonder there is so much gross error. The Jews also had a very difficult time comprehending the New Covenant Sabbath. They thought Christ had lost his mind and did not know what he was saying.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

The quest today to understand the Gospel Sabbath is important for the church. However, it requires a serious re-study of Jesus Sabbath teachings, --with a mind open to the Gospel facts. The New Covenant is not the same as the Old Covenant. Those that try to blend them together, or keep them equal, will never be able to understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath.

SDA said: The Sabbath is today what it has always been. Jesus didn't change the Sabbath.

Tom said: Wrong. Like the Jews, you are fighting against the Gospel. The OC Sabbath is not the same as the NC doctrine. While the day is the same, the 7th, one prohibits work and the other embraces it. Jesus teaches a better Way, with a better, guiltless and free Gospel Sabbath.

Heb. 8:8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

Heb. 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Saved By Grace wrote: You are wanting the answer to be a law that doesn't have the 4th commandment in it so you don't have to obey it. But James quoted from the law that DOES have the 4th commandment in it so as to leave no doubt:

James 2:11 - For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Tom said: First, James is not Christ, nor is he the Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus is the primary source to understand the New Covenant Sabbath. Second, James did not mention the 4th Commandment, nor does he teach anything about the Sabbath. Third: Christians are not under the ceremonial or moral laws of Judaism, which includes the 10 Commandments. Fourth: James had a problem with the law, which is what the book of Galatians is about. Misunderstand the debate between James and Paul and you will never understand the Gospel correctly.

This is very simple: ALL Christians must follow what Jesus teaches about all things, including the Sabbath. This is the point. Many follow a false Sabbath from a false Christ. This is the problem. Moses in not Christ. Jesus does not serve Moses. The Law is inferior to the Gospel.

SDA said: The reason you continue to insist on separating the "two" from the "ten" even though Scripture does no such thing is because you have stated plainly that you "refuse" to remember God's Sabbath to keep it holy. That's the doctrine you have made to justify your refusal.

Tom said: Where does Jesus teach holy Sabbath keeping? Answer: NOWHERE! While this myth is popular, it is still a myth.

Christians are NOT under ANY of the 10 Commandments. Rather, they must follow what Jesus teaches about each and every commandment, including the Sabbath. Why is this so hard to understand? Answer, because most do not understand the New Covenant. The SDAs don’t know Jesus or what he teaches, much less what Paul is teaching in Galatians.

SDA said: The "works" that are shown by our "faith" are none other than that which love produces. Once again, which of the Ten Commandments does love NOT fulfill? And remember, love always does more, not less, than is asked of it.

Tom said: You speak like a Catholic. They played the same word games about love in an effort to silence Luther's Gospel. For example, they tried to convince him that JBF was not "alone", and that it was a mistake to remove sanctification from the Gospel equation.

In fact, the Papists went to 1 Cor 13 where Paul talks about the superiority of love over faith. With brilliance and logic they reasoned that faith has value only if it is done with love. Thus, they claimed that true saving faith is NEVER alone, it must at least have "love" to accompany it.

Thus the papists declared that faith is not alone as Luther claimed. Love, which is work, is a necessary component of the Gospel; proving that salvation embraces much more than JBF.

But Luther understood the mind of Paul and refuted Rome's attack. Not even for "love" would he agree to link sanctification and law keeping with JBF, as Rome demanded. Rather, the Protestant version of JBF was ALONE, that is, separated from our law keeping and sanctification, including our "love."

Luther's papal opponents rejected that we are justified by faith alone, - in part on the grounds of 1 Co. 13:2, "If I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." They also used 1 Co. 13:13 "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love."

His opponents stated that "faith alone" (as in JBF) does not justify, but rather that "faith formed by love," justifies. In other words, they claimed that love, and sanctification, must be added to JBF if faith is to justify and save.

But Luther would have none of it. He showed that faith, as in JBF, was the number one priority, and that Paul is not trying to add our "love" or good works to the Gospel. We are not saved by law or our works of love.

Luther said:

"The sophists have transgressed in a masterly manner as regards this verse. They have made faith vastly inferior to love because of Paul's assertion that love is greater than faith and greater than hope. As usual, their mad reason blindly seizes upon the literal expression. They hack a piece out of it and the remainder they ignore. Thus they fail to understand Paul's meaning;" Luther's Sermon on Cor 13.

If Luther were alive today, he would curse the false SDA Gospel. There would be no question for him that they are in league with Rome, like most others. JBF is ALONE, separate and distinct from sanctification and law keeping. This is the only valid and credible Protestant version of the Gospel.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122

In Conclusion, the SDA Sabbath is wrong. While they have the right day, they have the wrong doctrine. They have embraced the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses, even as they are blind to Christ’s active and guilt free, 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

When the Gospel is fully understood, so too the 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

tom_norris · 06-25-16 2:34 pm

Tom,

Torah law was not in force during Christ's life, Roman law was. Jesus and the disciples were not Jews traveling through their own country when they picked handfuls of grain in the field, they were citzens of Galilee traveling through another Roman providence, so in fact they were strangers. Israel did not exist during the time of Christ, nor had it existed for a long time.

Jesus went to church every sabbath, "as was his custom". Sabbath keeping at this time, in the Roman Empire was not a law, it was a Jewish custom Roman law allowed. Therefore Jesus was not attending church because it was the law of the law he lived in, it was a custom that he chose to do.
Jews did not go around killing other Jews and Gentiles that worked on the sabbath because the Torah required them to. The Torah was not the law of the land. Israel was not a nation, it did not exist.

sitkahappy
Anchorage, AK

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/sev … VEOHQG/p45
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Tom Norris said: The Gospel Story makes it clear that Jesus was sent to the Jews in the land of Israel. He was not sent to the Romans, - but to the house of Israel.

Matt. 2:21 So Joseph got up, took the Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel.

Matt. 8:10 Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.

Matt. 9:33 After the demon was cast out, the mute man spoke; and the crowds were amazed, and were saying, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”

Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;

Matt. 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matt. 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

John 1:49 Nathanael answered Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.”

Forget this idea that there was no Israel, or that the Romans prohibited the Jews from following the Torah. That is an absurd attempt on your part to defend false doctrine. The 1st century Jews were allowed by Rome to follow the Torah and showcase Judaism from their great Temple, which was a wonder of the ancient world.

Or do you think Roman law was being followed in the Jewish Temple? Of course not. The Torah was in full effect for the Jews, complete with a high priest, Priests and Levites, and Temple sacrifices, etc. The Passover was not Roman, and neither was the 7th day Sabbath. The 1st century Jews followed the Torah. Which is why were so many theological debates over the Torah between Jesus and the Jews.

Jesus was not called the King of the Romans, even as his followers were Jews, living in Israel. The fact that Rome had conquered Israel and everyone else is beside the point. Rome allowed every nation to keep their own religion, even as special consideration had long ago been given to the Jews, especially when it came to their Sabbath. Jesus and the Jews viewed Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, regardless of Rome. Thus Jesus was not a stranger or Gentile, as defined by the Torah.

John 1:31 “I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel,

John 12:13 took the branches of the palm trees and went out to meet Him, and began to shout, “Hosanna! BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD, even the King of Israel.”

As for the Gospel Sabbath, Jesus absolutely worshiped every 7th day, as did all good Jews. His New Covenant Sabbath does the same thing. Moreover, the Sabbath was his favorite topic. Which explains why there is so much written about it in the Gospels. The Romans have zero to do with this doctrine, except that they had long ago given the Jews special Sabbath privileges, dating back to Caesar. (This is why the Jews were exempted from being drafted into the Roman army.)

Let all understand: Jesus takes Old Covenant Jewish Law and converts it to Gospel law and doctrine. Just as the Passover became the Eucharist, and Circumcision became Baptism, so too, the Old Covenant Sabbath is transformed into a New Covenant doctrine that is active and guilt free, where the Law has no power to condemn.

Jesus 7th day Sabbath doctrine is a living metaphor for the Gospel; complete with the freedom it gives to the saved individual from the Law. If you cannot see or understand this important doctrine, then you will not be able to see or understand the Gospel.

SDA said: Sounds like you want everyone to go back into bondage in Egypt making bricks seven days a week.

Tom said: Christ is not leading his sheep back to Egypt. Those that think it sinful to work on the Sabbath, either Sunday or the 7th day, are in bondage to a false Christ and worthless Gospel. Better to make bricks and enjoy Eternal Life than embrace worthless doctrine.

The Gospel represents salvation and freedom, not fear from breaking the law. Those that follow the genuine Christ will understand and embrace the Sabbath doctrine of the Good Shepherd. (A term from the great Sabbath debate in John 9.)

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

SDA said: At creation Jesus who made this world rested on the seventh day which he called the sabbath. Jesus said come into me all you that labor and I will give you rest. Therefore there remains a rest......a certain day.

Tom said: Jesus is our spiritual rest 7 days a week. However, there is still a 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church. I am not saying otherwise. Moreover, the church does not correctly embrace what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. Meaning they they are blind to the genuine Christ. This is the point. Both the Sunday keepers and the 7th day crowd have the wrong, wrong, wrong, doctrine of the Sabbath.

SDA said: Jesus said I was a stranger, and you took me in. I was thirsty and you gave me water, I was hungry and you fed me, I was naked and you clothed me; these are the works we should not leave undone be they on the sabbath or any other day of the week. Doing so is not work, it is love; love that fulfills the law and reveals the Lord is at work in your life.

Tom said: Stop the double-talk. In the Old Covenant, work is work. Even picking up sticks for firewood was punishable by death, unless one was a Levite. The Jews had very strict rules from God and Moses about the Sabbath and it is very dishonest to pretend otherwise. Jesus changed those rules on multiple levels, including the Sabbath.

Jesus teaches that all good work, paid or unpaid, for people or animals, cars or plants, is allowed on the New Covenant Sabbath. Even if someone works at their job, it is good work because it feeds and clothes the family. The Christian has no rules against working on the 7th day Sabbath. Those legions that think otherwise, are not following Christ, but Moses and the Old Covenant Jews.

Neither the NC or OC doctrine of the Sabbath is for us to define. Moses makes it clear how it works in the OC and so too Jesus in the NC. Christ is the head theologian of the church, what he teaches about the Sabbath is what the church must follow. Period!

The Jews refused to understand, much less embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. Consequently they were cursed and doomed, called blind by Jesus for their repeated refusal to believe his guilt free view of the Sabbath.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

The SDAs are correct to declare Sunday wrong. But they too have embraced great Sabbath error. It is time for all that are serious about following Christ to repent for their many false doctrines and understand what he teaches.

Tom Norris for the genuine 7th day Gospel Sabbath

tom_norris · 06-26-16 11:49 am

SDA said: You must not call the Sabbath, Sabbath, but, Labor Day; actually, Laborers', Day. Not "The Lord's Day", but Workers' Day.

Tom said: We must define the Sabbath as Christ teaches. Although Jesus worked on the 7th day, he did not call it Labor Day, so we cannot. Sorry.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

SDA said: Jesus said come onto me and I will give you rest. If that only involves a spiritual rest and Christians are lost unless they are working seven days a week to feed and cloth their family then the promise of rest is worthless because there is none, and is no different then the false teachers that demanded everyone go back into bondage in Egypt where they were forced to work seven days a week.

Tom said: Your debate is with Christ, not Tom Norris. Jesus made it clear to the Jews that there was a change in Judaism about the law and the Sabbath. But the Jews hated and refused this change, even as they killed Christ and made war against the Gospel. Why are you acting like the blind and deaf Jews?

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Many so-called Christians today are taking the same position as the Jews. They are blind to the Gospel for all to see.

SDA said: I would rather follow a Jesus that offers a physical rest on the seventh day of the week as well as a spiritual rest all the time then one that demanded I work seven days a week under the threat of pain, death, and dam nation.

Tom said: Many want their own personal Christ so they can make him say what they want to hear. Such religion is worthless. Jesus did not offer physical rest to the Jews on the 7th day, nor did he teach such a point. Rather, he gave them Gospel Light, which they rejected. So your Jesus is fiction, a made up character in your head that does not exist in the Gospels.

John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

John 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

The SDAs must repent for their confusion about the Law and the Gospel. Jesus nowhere teaches a resting Sabbath. That was Moses!

Christ teaches an active and free 7th day Sabbath, of which he is the Lord and protector. The SDA Sabbath is a Jewish slap in the face of Christ. Proof that they do not understand the New Covenant teachings of Jesus.

SDA said: Scripture says Jesus attended synagogue and worshipped on the Sabbath as a custom. I didn't make that up to suit my own doctrine.

Tom said: Yes, it was the custom of all Jews. Why because the 7th day Sabbath was a great Jewish doctrine, world famous. Jesus teaches that Christians are also supposed to meet and worship on the 7th day. He is the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine.

SDA said: The land Jesus was born into was Roman and under Roman law. The Romans did not enforce a Sabbath law on the Jews so attending synagogue was a custom not all Jews observed.

Tom said: I don’t understand your point. The Romans do not control the Gospel Story. The land of Israel was given to the Jews by God, regardless what Empire was in control. Thus it was considered their land no matter what. Moreover, not all Jews had to go to the synagogue; it was primarily a male requirement.

SDA said: The Romans allowed the Jews to maintain some of their customs and temple laws within certain areas of the temple but kept Roman soldiers housed right next to the temple to ensure they didn't take things to far.

Tom said: So what is your point? The Romans controlled the Jews, but allowed them religious independence to run the Temple and practice Judaism, which included circumcision, animal sacrifices, pilgrimages to Jerusalem, etc. Again, I don’t understand your point? Do you?

Let everyone understand: Jesus teaches an active and guilt-free, 7th day Sabbath. He is promoting a New Covenant doctrine. He is not, not, not, promoting the Old Covenant doctrine of the 4th Commandment as SDA tradition teaches.

Christ does not teach a Sunday or 7th day rest, as most assume. Nor does he claim to be our Sabbath rest, thus eliminating the doctrine of a weekly, 7th day Sabbath. Unless the SDAs repent for this major error, they are doomed, just like the Jews they emulate.

Mark 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … _70484.htm

tom_norris · 06-28-16 7:34 pm

SDA said: You correctly said Jesus came to the house of Israel (his people). Now you are saying Jesus came to save some land. Jesus didn't come to take back a piece of land from the Romans, that's the same argument the Pharisees used when they rejected Jesus, they wanted an earthly kingdom. The nation of Israel did not exist during Christ's time; it was overthrown long before Jesus was born.

Tom said: You are misquoting me, even as you continue to ignore the real issues. Whatever Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath is what the church must embrace. Not what the SDAs say or anyone else. Jesus does not support or defend the 4th Commandment, and you need to re-evaluate your position and follow the Word.

SDA said: If Sabbath keeping was the law of the land as you claim the Jews were have been forcing the Romans to observe it. The Gentiles were not under the Sabbath law; therefore it was a custom some Jews observed as a tradition of their religion.

Tom said: The 4th Commandment was a very important and strict law for Jews. The Romans did not follow Judaism. Jesus did not teach his followers to keep the Sabbath holy by not working. Rather, he teaches a very different doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

SDA said: This is false doctrine Tom. Jesus spoke the fourth commandment himself to the people, and wrote it with his own finger.

Tom said: You are playing games with the Word. The Torah is not, not, not, part of the New Covenant. Nor is the Gospel to be found in Judaism. What is the matter with you to speak this way?

What JESUS teaches IN THE GOSPELS, is what all Christians must follow. To claim that Jesus gives Sabbath instruction in the Torah is absurd nonsense and heresy.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Here is the big problem with the blind and vailed SDAs; they have, like the Circumcision Party and later, the Roman Catholic Church, blended the Old and New Covenants together, thus ruining the Gospel. Sad.

While I can show Jesus teaching an active, guilt free Sabbath in all four Gospels, -over and over; you cannot show Christ teaching the 4th Commandment once. Your claim that Jesus Sabbath instruction can be found in the Torah is outrageous heresy, disqualifying you as a serious student of the Word. Unless you can prove your pro-4th Commandment position from the Gospels, you must admit your error and repent.

Can you do this? Or will you be like the Jews and cling to the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses, and lose Eternal Life?

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

tom_norris · 07-09-16 11:10 am

The Two Covenants & the Sabbath; SDAs Wrong!

Here is an outrageous attempt to defend the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath. It is so convoluted and heretical that it boggles the mind, showing how legalistic and anti-Christ some modern Adventists have become. Listen as the SDAs confuse Moses with Jesus, thinking the Old Covenant is equal with the New Covenant.

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/sev … VEOHQG/p54

SDA said: I'm not talking about the Torah Tom; I'm talking about the BIBLE! Jesus said he was the I AM of the OT. Jesus spoke to Adam, Jesus spoke to Abraham, Jesus spoke to Moses, Jesus is the WORD, which is the entire BIBLE.

Tom said: The Christian Bible contains the Old and the New Covenants. These two are not the same, nor are they of equal authority. The New Covenant far surpasses the Old Covenant, even to the extent of making it obsolete, which was the plan of God.

Heb. 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Heb. 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

The first five books of the Bible, written by Moses, are called the Torah. They represent Old Covenant Judaism. The first four books of the New Covenant are called the Gospels, written by Jesus’ apostles for Christians. You must choose between these Two Covenants, as they cannot be blended or joined together. You cannot follow Moses and Christ.

Judaism 101
http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

Heb. 7:22 Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Heb. 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete.

Mark 2:22 “No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”

Heb. 12:18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind

Heb. 12:19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.

Heb. 12:20 For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.”

Heb. 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.”

Heb. 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

Heb. 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Heb. 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Heb. 12:25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking.

It is the greatest of theological mistakes to confuse and conflate the Two Covenants, thinking they are equal. They are not. Judaism, including obedience to the 10 Commandments, is obsolete, not to be followed by the Christian. There can be no ritual circumcision or sacrifices, clean or unclean foods, no tithing or a separate priesthood, much less Old Covenant Sabbath keeping, all of which is Old Wine.

Christians are not under Old Covenant Law; they are under the Law (teaching) of Christ.

Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

Heb. 8:13 When He said, A new covenant, He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Galatians covers this Two Covenant debate in the apostolic church (This was the same issue that destroyed the SDA Empire in Battle Creek in 1888). This idea that certain Old Testament Laws can be added to the Gospel, such as circumcision or Sabbath keeping, or tithing, is a huge mistake that prevents legions from comprehending the correct Gospel Sabbath. The SDAs, like the Jews they emulate, have made fools of themselves for being so blind for so long.

Here is the famous passage that destroyed the 19th century SDAs. Unless they can repent for 1888 and Glacier View in 1980, they are doomed. The word law means the Moral Law, as well as the Ceremonial. After 1888, Ellen White admitted that this passage applies to the 4th Commandment, which means that the SDAs have an incorrect view of the NC Sabbath.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal. 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The SDAs need to repent for rejecting the truth about the Two Covenants in 1888. They need to stop acting like they are Jews, embracing one OC doctrine after another, as if Moses were Christ. The Christian Faith is not Judaism lite. The Old Covenant has been abolished, including obedience to the 4th Commandment, which Jesus never promoted or defended. Those that try to add any Jewish law keeping to the Gospel, such as circumcision, tithe paying, food laws, or Sabbath keeping, have fallen away from Christ. They do not understand the Gospel nor do they have salvation.

Listen to Luther on this point:

"This difference between the Law and the Gospel is the height of knowledge in Christendom. Every person and all persons who assume or glory in the name of Christian should know and be able to state this difference. If this ability is lacking, one cannot tell a Christian from a heathen or a Jew; of such supreme importance is this differentiation. This is why St. Paul so strongly insists on a clean-cut and proper differentiating of these two doctrines." (Martin Luther, Sermon On Galatians, 1532).

Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122

Gal. 3:12 the Law is not of faith;

Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The SDAs have long ago fallen away from the Gospel. Their obsession with OC Jewish laws like; tithing, food laws, and Sabbath keeping, has prevented them from comprehending the genuine 7th day Sabbath of Christ. They represent the Circumcision Party in the Gospel Story. Sad.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Many SDAs have confused Moses with Christ. They see very little difference between the two. Which is why they cannot understand the guilt free Sabbath of Gospel liberty that Christ teaches. It seems impossible and sinful to their legalistic minds. Which is also how the Gospel hating Jews felt.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Unless the Adventists reject Moses and all OC Law, including food laws, tithing and Sabbath keeping, they are doomed. All must choose between the teachings of Christ or Moses. The two paradigms cannot be joined.

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

2Cor. 3:5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

2Cor. 3:6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Cor. 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

2Cor. 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

2Cor. 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

2Cor. 3:10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.

The Gospel is far superior Judaism. Just as Christ is greater than Moses, and so too his teachings, commandments, and laws.

Christians are not under the OC, which is why Jesus does not follow, teach, or defend the 4th Commandment. Christ is not wrong, the SDAs are blind. The SDAs must repent for their false, Old Covenant view of the Sabbath and push forward with Gospel based, 7th day Sabbath Reform. This is the destiny of the Adventism.

SDA said: Jesus wrote the Ten Commandments on stone, cut out of throne of God.

Tom said: Your attempts to pretend the Law and the Gospel are the same, is very wrong and anti-Gospel. Jesus, the Christ, is a New Covenant figure. While he pre-existed in another form during the OC period, - when he became human, he was called Jesus. His mission was not to uphold Judaism and their many laws, but to complete and fulfill the OC, bringing the New Covenant to the Jews and then to the world, through the church. We must listen to what Jesus teaches and only follow his Gospel commandments and laws, which are contained in the NC, not the OC.

Heb. 10:5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;

Heb. 10:8 After saying above, “SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them” (which are offered according to the Law),

Heb. 10:9 then He said, “BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second.

Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

Luke 21:33 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Legions are confused and very wrong about the Two Covenants, even as they follow a false Christ and an impossible view of the Sabbath as a result. All SDAs have been indoctrinated by the White Estate to believe the legalistic nonsense from Uriah Smith, which was not supported by Ellen White in the 1888 debates. Shame on the SDAs for covering up what really happened in Battle Creek. The SDAs have been following a false Christ ever since.

Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Pay attention: The Gospel Story does not, not, not, show Christ giving the Old Covenant Law to Moses. That is just wishful thinking for those obsessed with the Old Covenant and the 4th Commandment. The NT contains no such impossible passage and it is heresy to pretend otherwise. You have been greatly deceived about the law and the Gospel, which is why you defend such an Old Covenant view of the Sabbath, which Christ does not teach.

Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

SDA said: Jesus spoke the Ten Commandments from the top of the mountain to all the people.

Tom said: Where does the NT make such a claim for Christ? There is no such Gospel passage that shows Christ giving the Law. You are twisting the scriptures to make them say what you want to hear. You refuse to be taught by Christ or believe the Gospel Story. Moses is not Christ. The Old covenant is the not the New Covenant.

While SDAs obviously think the Old Covenant is something to be preserved, defended, and embraced; merged into the New Covenant, this could not be more wrong. God has made it clear that we are to listen to his Son, whose New Covenant teachings can only be found in the Gospels. Anyone that thinks they can find Jesus and the Gospel in the Old Testament are only fooling himself or herself and forfeiting Eternal Life. Christians must listen to the New Covenant words of Christ in the Gospels, and follow only what Jesus teaches.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Rom. 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

SDA said: The NT says the same gospel that is preached to us was preached to those of the OT so how can you teach that the gospel isn't there?

Tom said: You misunderstand scripture. While there are shadows of the Gospel in Judaism, the New Covenant is not to be found in the Old Covenant. Stop looking in the wrong place for the Gospel Sabbath. It is not to be found in the Torah, but only in the Gospel teachings of Christ.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

Note to all SDAs; Stop trying to twist the Word to make it support false doctrine. Those under the Old Covenant did not know the Gospel; it was a mystery. Nor is it known today by those, like yourself, that have chosen to live under the same OC. Sad.

The NT teaches, over and over, that the Gospel was hidden from those that lived under the Old Covenant. This point is not up for debate. However, all Old Covenant minded SDAs need to repent for so badly misunderstanding the Gospel Story. They have been misled for generations, and now they are as blind as the 1st century Jews that hated the Gospel and Christ’s active, NC Sabbath.

Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

Eph. 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Eph. 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Eph. 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Eph. 5:32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

Eph. 6:19 and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me bin the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,

Col. 1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

The Gospel was unknown to those under the Old Covenant. Moreover, it is also a great mystery today to all SDAs. They have it so very wrong, yet they think they are smarter than all others, the favored people of God. Like the Jews they emulate, they are doomed unless they repent.

SDA said: The NT says the Rock that followed the Hebrew in the wilderness and gave them water was Jesus so how can you teach Jesus wasn't there?

Tom said: This passage is warning Christians not to take their salvation for granted, like the Jews in the wilderness. This reference about the pre-existent Christ being a spiritual rock that produced living water for the Jews does not change the facts about the Two Covenants; much less make moot the Gospel teachings of Jesus. The Gospel is different from Law. They are not the same theological paradigms. Paul understands this, but you do not.

1Cor. 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

SDA said: The NT says Jesus created everything and nothing was created without him, so how can you teach that Jesus didn't create this world, the sabbath, and the Ten Commandments.

Tom said: I never said what you claimed. Jesus created the world, including the first 7th day Sabbath, and later, the Old Covenant, which is Judaism, and then the New Covenant, which is the Church.

The OC Sabbath of the 4th Commandment is NOT the same Sabbath doctrine that Jesus teaches in the NC. This fact cannot be refuted. Rest and Work are opposing concepts.

It is a great mistake to assume that the first Sabbath was non-working. It was not. There was no law, guilt, sin, or death penalty associated with the Genesis Sabbath. Neither Adam nor Eve were under the Old Covenant, which did not exist at this time. Only after Abraham and Moses, did the Sabbath become a Jewish Law with serious penalties, and even then, the Jewish priests were excluded.

Many today misunderstand the concept of Law; from a NC perspective, OC Law is for bad people, not good or perfect people. Adam and Eve were not instructed to obey the 4th Commandment as the SDAs claim. While there was a 7th day Sabbath in Eden, it was not punitive or restrictive. They were free and guiltless on the Sabbath, regardless of their activities.

1Tim. 1:6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,

1Tim. 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

1Tim. 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

1Tim. 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

1Tim. 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

1Tim. 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Christians are not under Old Covenant Law. They are only under the Law of Christ; the first one being Eternal Life by faith in Christ. Not by faith in the law.

SDA said: If Jesus didn't support the sabbath he wouldn't have observed it his entire life. Jesus clearly taught the keeping of the sabbath by keeping the sabbath and attending synagogue when he could.

Tom said: STOP - you misunderstand: Jesus did not, not, not, observe or teach the 4th Commandment as the SDAs claim. While I understand this is what many have been taught to believe; such teaching is not from Christ or his apostles.

Jesus never rested on the Sabbath. He teaches an active, guilt-free, 7th day Sabbath, which means you have been following a fraud all these years! Your Jesus is Moses in disguise. The SDA claim that Jesus teaches the 4th Commandment is FALSE! The Gospels refute that position over and over and over. So rather than admit this truth, they run to Moses and pretend Jesus was part of the Old Covenant, which they view as equal to the New. This is all wrong.

Jesus caused great division and debate because he refused to follow the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews. While Christ still worshipped on the 7th day, he refused to rest as he introduced an active, working view of the Sabbath, one that was based on his new teaching about the Priesthood of all Believers.

The Gospels are full of Jesus promoting and defending his active, New Covenant view of the Sabbath. How could the church miss all this material? Why do the SDAs pretend Jesus teaches the 4th Commandment, when he does no such thing? Stop defending and embracing the Old Covenant. Stop defending the wrong side of the 1888 debates.

SDA said: No where in the NT can I find an example of Jesus working for pay on a sabbath after he rose from the tomb, or telling his disciples to do so. If Jesus changed the sabbath it would be reflected in his actions and deeds after the tomb.

Tom said: You misunderstand the NT. The Gospels contain the genuine New Covenant teaching of Christ for the Church. Most all of these teachings take place prior to his ascension, even though they were all written long after. Whatever Jesus teaches in the Gospels, about anything, including the Sabbath, is what the church must follow. Your attempt to disregard the Gospels is telling. It shows you do not seek Gospel truth.

It is clear to all that are honest: that Jesus promoted a CHANGED DOCTRINE of the Sabbath from the very beginning of his ministry, which is why Mark shows Jesus debating about the Sabbath in Mark 2.

Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

SDAs need to learn how to read the Bible. The Gospel is not to be found in the Old Testament, nor should any of Jesus teaching before his ascension, be disregarded. Whatever Jesus teaches in the Gospels, about the Sabbath or anything, is what the church must follow. Period! Jesus is the head theologian of the church, we must listen to him above all others.

SDA said: Jesus gave the eleven disciples the gospel commission just before he returned to heaven; it reads go and teach the world all that I have taught you.

Tom said: The Gospel Commission includes what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Jesus taught his disciples a New Covenant version of the Old Covenant Sabbath. From the very beginning of his ministry, Christ taught an active, guilt free Sabbath that he represented as new wine.

Mark 2:22 “No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”

Mark 2:23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain.

Let all repent, both Sunday keepers and Sabbatarians, and learn the genuine Gospel Sabbath from Christ. It is a critical part of the Gospel Story that must be preached to the world.

SDA said: There is no record in scripture of Jesus working for wages before the cross to feed his family, no record of him doing so as an example for the disciples to show them what they would do and teach after the cross. If Jesus taught them to work for wages on the sabbath it would be recorded in the NT.

Tom said: This issue about wages is an irrelevant diversion. The 4th Commandment does not allow for any work, --for wages or not. Which is why a man was put to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. He was not working for wages was he? Of course not. The 4th commandment does not allow for any work, unless one was a Levite. Then the 4th Commandment did NOT APPLY. (Here is the theological predicate for Jesus’ active, NC Sabbath).

Jesus taught that under the NC, work on the 7th day was no longer sinful. Regardless what kind or type; paid or not paid, the issue is work and activity versus complete rest, (non-work).

Let all understand: Jesus introduced a dramatically new kind of 7th day Sabbath for Christians, one that the Jews hated. This is why all four Gospels contain passages where Jesus debates about the Sabbath. The Sabbath debates play a featured role in the Gospel Story, and there is no excuse for anyone to overlook this topic, much less get it wrong. Jesus is very clear about his 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

Too bad the church has been so foolish as to think that Sunday, or the 4th Commandment, reflects what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. Neither position is correct because the church today is blind to the Gospel. And the SDAs are the worst, because they claim to be experts on the Sabbath, like the Jews. But they are as wrong about the Sabbath as were the Jews.

When the Gospel teachings of Christ are correctly understood, so too what he teaches about the ACTIVE, 7th day, Sabbath. At this point, the church is blind to the Gospel and to the New Covenant Sabbath of Christ.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

tom_norris · 07-15-16 6:34 pm

Adventism and the 4th Commandment

The Advent Movement was Sunday based until the 3rd Angels Message was developed in 1847. At that point, 7th day Sabbath Reform became an important part of their eschatological mission. But something happened in 1888 and the 3rd Angels Message collapsed. Although the SDAs retreated from Battle Creek and re-established their Sabatarian focus in Takoma Park, they once again imploded, as another great schism rocked the Movement.

What went wrong with the Advent Movement? Were they wrong to reject Sunday in favor of the 7th day? Were they wrong to claim that the Sabbath is an important and telling doctrine, part of the Gospel?

Few understand that the Two Covenants and the Sabbath were the core issues in 1888. EJ Waggoner discovered, through the study of Luther’s Galatian Commentary, that the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath was WRONG. Waggoner correctly realized that no Christian was under the 4th Commandment, which set off a firestorm that confused, divided, and destroyed the Battle Creek Empire.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Today, the SDAs have so hidden and covered up the 1888 debates, that they don’t realize what was at stake, much less what Ellen White thought. Few understand how close the Advent Movement came to moving forward towards the genuine Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which is unknown to them in the 21st century. Like today, the 19th century leaders assumed they had all possible truth about the Sabbath, when they were sitting in darkness, fighting against Gospel truth.

It is time for the Advent Movement to understand how they have gone wrong and why. Their incorrect view of the Sabbath has ruined them. Thus they need to repent for both 1888 and Glacier View. They must turn away from Moses and the shadows of the Old Covenant, which has blinded them from the Gospel. Then they can go forward to better understand the New Covenant, complete Sabbath Reform, and update their confused eschatology. THIS is how to save the dysfunctional and dying Advent Movement.

Let all SDAs understand: Jesus Does NOT teach or support the 4th Commandment. However, as Lord of the New Covenant Sabbath, he does support a Gospel version of the 7th day. So the SDAs were on the right theological track, until they fell into a ditch of legalistic confusion, where they have been stuck since 1888. Time to repent and crawl out of the ditch so they can find the true 7th day Sabbath of the Gospels, which is NOT the 4th Commandment.

The Jews viewed their Laws and traditions very seriously, including the 4th Commandment. As a result, the active, guilt free Sabbath of Christ stunned and angered them. Try as Jesus might, he was unable to convert these Old Covenant loyalists to follow his active and guilt free New Covenant Sabbath. In response, Jesus calls them blind; bad sheep that refuse to follow the Good Shepherd. So it is today. The SDAs are acting like blind sheep for all to see.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

These words of Jesus were spoken in the context of a great Sabbath debate. He was telling the Jews that they must stop following Moses and his non working Sabbath law, and instead, follow Christ with his priestly based, guilt free, Sabbath. These two different Sabbath doctrines represent the Two Covenants.

Non-SDA said: Amen. But the SDAs never seem to understand the difference in the old and the new. To them these are one and the same. Incredible!

Tom said: The SDAs have blended the OC and NC together, thus ruining the Gospel. It is RC theology that blends the Two Covenants together; Protestant doctrine refutes this great error. The SDAs are following RC theology, which is why they do not understand the Protestant Gospel. They have been blinded by the Old Covenant, which they love.

When it comes to the Sabbath, Jesus teaches that it is difficult for those that pretend to be blind, to actually see and understand the Gospel Sabbath. Such a lack of honesty, along with spiritual prejudice and legalism has left the SDAs incapable of rational or spiritual thought. They have closed their eyes to truth for so long, they now lack the ability to understand Jesus teachings. They are blind to Christ, and to his active Gospel Sabbath. Just like the Jews!

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

Jesus teaches that those who hear and reject his active, guilt free, NC Sabbath; remain in a sinful state. They receive no benefits from the Gospel because they refuse to follow the Lord of the NC Sabbath. They are bad, sinful sheep that think Jesus is the Insane Shepherd, not the Good Shepherd. They prefer Moses and his Sabbath law to be their good shepherd.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

Non SDA said: No one should be trying, here is the year 2016, to force any day of worship on Christians. It's not a DAY that is important, but WHO we worship, and why. Paul left no room for doubt on this subject, to the quibblers. Those who want to overlook his instructions will continue to do so.

Tom said: Hold on: There is a correct, weekly, Sabbath doctrine for the church. And the SDAs were correct to state that Sunday cannot be the NC Sabbath. Why? Because Jesus never teaches a Sunday Sabbath.

Moreover, they are also correct to claim that only the 7th day can be correct; because Jesus only teaches a weekly 7th day Sabbath for the church. These two points cannot be refuted. So the SDAs deserve some credit.

However, they are NOT correct to claim Jesus taught the 4th Commandment. He did not. It was the Jewish leaders that followed and defended the 4th Commandment, not Christ. This SDA claim has no support from the Gospels or the rest of the NT. The SDAs have misunderstood the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ, for which they must zealously repent.

Jesus teaches a very specific, weekly, 7th day Sabbath, which all Christians must understand and follow. To understand Jesus is to also understand what he teaches over and over about the 7th day Sabbath, which teaching will never change. So there is importance and meaning to the 7th DAY as part of the Creation Story. But there is more meaning for Christians, because of what Christ teaches about this guilt free DAY of Gospel liberty and hope.

Non-SDA said: "You will get to heaven only if you do so Gods way, by personal faith in Jesus Christ as Gods Substitute Who bore the penalty of your sin, and Who is Gods provision of the righteousness which you lack for eternal life."

Tom said: Gods Way is to follow the Good Shepherd, with his active and guilt free, 7th day Sabbath. But many refuse, preferring Moses to Christ. But Moses is the wrong way to God. He does not represent truth, but laws, shadows, and death.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Jesus did not follow, teach, or defend the 4th Commandment. He promoted an active and guilt free, 7th day Sabbath. To deny this Gospel fact is to deny Christ.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

SDA said: Tom, I didn't confuse Moses with Jesus. Jesus said the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God because Jesus created this world. Moses didn't say the sabbath was a form of worship that happened on the seventh day of the week because he created the Jewish world.

Tom said: Read the Gospels; Jesus does not teach a resting, inactive, Sabbath. He does not, not, not, promote or embrace the 4th Commandment. This SDA myth is tiresome, anti-Christ heresy. (Sunday Sabbath is also heresy).

Let this sink into your brain: Moses and Jesus represent DIFFERENT Covenants. The Old Covenant, which is Judaism, is not the same as the New Covenant, which is the Christian Faith.

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

If one cannot separate and distinguish between these two theological paradigms; the Gospel will become incomprehensible, and the Sabbath absurd. Which is why so many cannot correctly understand what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath, which is brilliantly showcased in his NC Sabbath doctrine for all to see. Moses has neither grace nor truth to offer. Only law, guilt, and Capitol punishment.

Jesus is not to be instructed about the Sabbath, or anything, by the SDAs or the Sunday keepers. What he teaches in the Gospels is what all must follow. It is such a simple point, but yet, many want to run to the Old Covenant and find Jesus there, pretending the OC is equal with the NC, or even superior, when this is NOT true. Only the words of Jesus, in the Gospels, are salvific and full of truth. The words of Moses represent death. Listen only to Jesus.

Matt. 10:24 A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.

Luke 6:47 “Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:

Luke 6:48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.

Luke 6:49 “But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

Jesus, the great Gospel teacher, does NOT teach a resting, non-working, Sabbath. Those that think otherwise have built their spiritual house on sand. Those so-called Christians that practice and follow the 4th Commandment will be ruined. The Law is the wrong foundation for Eternal Life.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

SDA said: Paul asked is Jesus the God of the Jews only; no he says, Jesus has always been the God of the Jews and the Gentiles. Therefore Jesus is the God of the entire Bible; the great I AM, the Rock that Hannah spoke to, the God that gave manna, the voice that filled the sanctuary and sit on the mercy seat over the ark of the covenant in the sanctuary. It's the everlasting gospel, not just the NT gospel.

Tom said: Do not pretend that Paul supports your gross confusion about the Two Covenants. He condemns Uriah Smith and the SDAs for their obsession with the 4th Commandment. In fact, in Galatians he condemns Peter and James for blending the OC with the NC, which is exactly what the SDAs have done. This is why they practice tithe, food laws, and Sabbath keeping. Which makes them Judaizers.

Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

The SDAs have not been straightforward about the Gospel or the New Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath. And neither have the Sunday keepers or the Every Day Sabbath crowd.

The OC is not the same as the NC. If you continue to embrace this fatal theological error, you will never be able to comprehend the Gospel, much less the genuine Gospel Sabbath and credible eschatology.

SDA said: The last six commandments of the ten are moral laws. The first four deal with worship of Jesus; who, how, where, and when. If the first four are ceremonial laws that Jesus made obsolete with the NC then no Christians should be worshipping Jesus on any day, in any way.

Tom said: First, forget whether the 10 Commandments are moral or ceremonial. They are actually both, but it makes no difference. Second, Christians are not under either! Third: Jesus will Judge the world based on our response to his teachings, which also include what he teaches about the Sabbath. Moses is not the Judge of the world. Christians are not under the Moral or Ceremonial laws of the Old Covenant.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Moreover, the first 4 Commandments are not about Jesus as you recklessly claim. Where do you see the name Jesus in the Old Covenant Law?

Jesus is not about Law. He is not Moses. Nor is he an Old Covenant figure. You are blind to speak this way.

Do you think the Jews, or any Church scholar, agrees with you that the Law, given by Moses, referred to Jesus? If you think this way, you need to find a doctor and get some medication. You are delusional. You are living in a fantasy world of nonsense and fabricated history. Sad.

While the legalist always wants more law and guilt, this is not the New Covenant Way. The Gospel is not about the Moral law, which is why the NC Gospel Sabbath is active and guilt free for all to see. The 7th day Gospel Sabbath is not the same as the 4th Commandment!

SDA said: Every Christian must be born again and understand that they were wild branches that have been grafted into Israel and are spiritual Jews. Paul says in Ephesians that the two have become one because Jesus has always been the God of the Jews and the Gentiles.

Tom said: All spiritual Jews will embrace the Genesis Story and embrace the history of Judaism, understand the meaning of the Gospel and the importance of the 7th day Sabbath, which is primarily a Creation ordinance from the Torah. Thus the Sabbath lives on in the NC, but only in the active, priestly, form that Jesus teaches and approves. He does not validate Sunday or the 4th Commandment. The entire church today is blind to the correct Gospel Sabbath.

In addition, the Old Covenant does not teach that anyone is to be born again. That is a NT doctrine.

Moreover, Christians are not to become Jews, as you assume. In fact, Paul makes it clear that for Christians, there is no longer any Jew or Gentile, much less man or woman, all are New Covenant creatures in Christ, following the Good Shepherd with his guilt free, active Sabbath.

Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

While the Jewish Sabbath is governed by the 4th Commandment, the Christian Sabbath is defined and controlled by Christ, the Lord of the active and guilt free, 7th day Sabbath. Christians are to only follow Christ Sabbath teachings.

SDA said: Scripture is clear that the same gospel that was preached in the NT was the same gospel that was preached to Abraham and those in the OT. The gospel has always been about grace and faith in Jesus.

Tom said: The word GOSPEL cannot be found in the OT. So how can you claim it was preached when there is no such term or doctrine? You misunderstand. The Gospel is a unique New Covenant term invented by Christ. It is used 99 times in the NT. However, it is used ZERO times in the OC. The first use of this term can be found in Mark.

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

So your position is not clear or correct. The OC did not contain the Gospel, nor did the Jews understand the Gospel. You misread the Bible. The OC is not about the Gospel. Stop pretending and repent for your many false views.

Although you claim faith in Christ, so too did the Circumcision Party. But Paul made it clear to this legalistic group, which included Peter and James, that they were wrong about the Law and the Gospel, and so too are you, for the same reasons.

Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

The SDA Gospel, which pretends the Moral law is in full force in the NC era, is false and very distorted, contrary to the teachings of Christ, which includes what he teaches about the Sabbath. Jesus never taught the 4th Commandment and they need to understand this fact and repent. The SDAs are not the great experts on the Sabbath as they pretend. Rather, they have become legalistic fools for all to see.

SDA said: I have faith that Jesus created this world and was present in the lives and events throughout the OT and the OC. That Jesus led the Hebrews out of bondage in Egypt, parted the Red Sea, provided manna, spoke the Ten Commandments from the mountain top saying the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord because he is Lord.

Tom said: Your faith is worthless nonsense. You are not an apostle, or even a rational person, so no one cares what you believe. Sincerely believing fiction does not make anything true. Your Law giving, tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Christ is a false delusion. He is Moses in disguise.

The Jews were certain Jesus was wrong about the Sabbath. His active and guilt free Sabbath views, which were based on the New Covenant doctrine of the Priesthood of all believers, seemed impossible and very sinful. But they were wrong, and so too are the SDAs. They have the WRONG 7th day Sabbath!

SDA said: Jesus was the Rock back in Zion that they stumbled over, not a rock that only appeared in the NT as you teach. Just because those in the OT couldn't recognize Jesus in the OT doesn't mean Jesus wasn't the light of the world shining throughout the darkness of the OT.

Tom said: Those in the OC did NOT understand Jesus or his Gospel. Such things were a “mystery” to the Hebrews. In fact, when Christ came to the Jews, they failed to recognize him, even as the Gospel was unknown and unexpected. You need to become educated on how to read the Bible. No Christian is under the Old Covenant Law, nor should Moses or the OT guide them. The Gospel is from Jesus in the New Covenant.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Mark 1:15 The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

Col. 1:25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

Col. 1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

Stop pretending that Jesus and the Gospels are part of the Old Covenant. They are not. Ritual shadows and prophecy about the Gospel is not the same as the Gospel, which was unveiled to the Jews in the 1st century.

SDA said: If everything wasn't made by Jesus; the world, man, the week, the Sabbath day, etc. If the laws of this world, the laws of nature, the moral laws of mankind, the laws of worship, etc didn't come from Jesus then the gospel is a lie.

Tom said: While you think you know all truth, you do not understand Judaism or the Gospel, much less the Sabbath teaching of Christ. So the truth eludes you, even as you have embraced legions of false doctrines. God the Father is not Jesus. Did you forget about him? What is the matter with you to think that God the Father and Jesus are the same person? The pre-extant Christ was co-creator with God the Father. Once human, he was forever lower than the Father, dependant on him. So once again, you don’t have a correct grasp of the Bible or the Gospel Story.

John 8:38 I speak the things which I have seen with My Father;

Matt. 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

Listen to Jesus claim that God the Father instructed him to teach an active, working Sabbath to the Jews. However, the Jews refused the Gospel and the Gospel Sabbath, just like so many SDAs today.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

Then Jesus connects his NC, active/guilt free Sabbath doctrine with Eternal Life. This should be contrasted to the OC Sabbath of Moses that is connected to sin, guilt, punishment, and death.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Pay attention: the Old Covenant is not to be confused with the NEW Covenant. The house of Moses is not the same as the house of Gods Son, Jesus. In fact, these houses are at war with one another.

Jesus is a NC apostle and teacher, sent from God. That is why he is referenced as an apostle. He is not an agent sent from Moses or the OC to bring more law and guilt to mankind.

Heb. 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

Heb. 3:2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house.

Heb. 3:3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.

Heb. 3:4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.

Heb. 3:5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things, which were to be spoken later;

Heb. 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house — whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The minds of the SDAs have turned to stone. Their obsession with Old Testament Law has prevented them from understanding the New Covenant Gospel. They need to repent and turn away from Moses, only following Christ and his active, NC Sabbath of liberty.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The active and guilt free, 7th day Sabbath of Christ is a living parable about the Gospel. Those that reject the true Sabbath of Christ, claiming that the Sabbath of Moses is preferred, or the myth about Sunday, are rejecting the Gospel, spiting in the face of Christ, the Lord of the New Covenant Sabbath. Big mistake.

SDA said: Jesus was the light shining in the darkness of the OT but they didn't comprehend him.

Tom said: There was no Gospel light shinning in the OT. Nor was Jesus teaching the Gospel to the Jews in the OT. Stop pretending that the OC and the NC are one and the same. They are NOT! Gospel light is only found in the New Covenant.

John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

The Jews rejected Jesus because they loved their OC Law over the Gospel. They failed to understand that Judaism was temporary, made to be replaced by the Christian Faith. Many today, like the SDAs, have also rejected Christ, for the same reason. They stand in legalistic darkness, but think they are in the light.

John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

John 3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

Those that reject the active, guilt free, Sabbath of Christ, - live in darkness; they are defying Christ by embracing the 4th Commandment of Moses (or Sunday). Such will not receive Eternal Life.

SDA said: There is nothing that says the man gathering sticks on the sabbath wasn't doing so for wages.

Tom said: There were no companies or wages during this ancient period, so forget such nonsense. The OC Sabbath Law did not allow for any activity, or work, on the 7th day, UNLESS you were a Levite. (The Levites had a very different Sabbath law and were NOT under the 4th Commandment.) Work is work is work. Paid or unpaid.

SDA said: In a sense you are correct about saying the forbidding of work on the sabbath wasn't about wages even though it is. Since the wages of sin is death, in sinning the man was gathering his wages.

Tom said: Spoken like a Jew. No doubt the SDAs would have been standing at the front of the rock throwing line, happily killing this Sabbath breaker. Why? Because the 4th Commandment called for death for those non-priests that worked on the Sabbath. Wages or no wages, it does not matter. Which also means they would have rejected Christs active, guilt free Sabbath, calling him an insane Sabbath breaker.

Ex. 31:14 Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex. 31:15 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

SDA said: The man's problem wasn't so much working as it was about worship.

Tom said: Stop trying to spin the Bible to make it fit your false delusions. Your problem is that YOU refuse to be honest or tell the truth about spiritual things. The text does not say what you claim. The issue was about violating the Sabbath law, which forbids any type of work under penalty of death.

Those Sabbath keepers today that are so foolish as to think they are under the 4th Commandment are guilty of death, because they are not keeping the law good enough. All SDAs do more work on Sabbath than just picking up sticks. So they are NOT following the Moral law as they pretend, nor do they understand the Gospel, as they also pretend. They are following Moses, Peter, and James of the Circumcision Party.

SDA said: In his gathering of the sticks to be used to fuel cooking fires the man was clearly rejecting God as the one that needed to be worshipped on that day. The man's heart, and therefore his worship was focused on the gain to be obtained by gathered firewood rather then worshipping God. The focus of the Sabbath commandment isn't about work, it's about worship.

Tom said: This Jewish man broke the 4th Commandment Law. Period. The Sabbath Commandment was very strict about not working on the 7th day, (unless one was a Levite). So this OC story was really about the Law, not worship. This Sabbath doctrine is certainly not the same Sabbath version that Christ promotes in the Gospel. Which is why Jesus never teaches the 4th commandment, but remains active every 7th day.

Bottom line: You and the SDAs refuse to let go of the Old Covenant and embrace the New Covenant teaching of Christ, which includes his active, guilt free, 7th day Sabbath. You are following a false, worthless Christ of your own legalistic imagination. You have been misled and deceived by the White Estate. The tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Jesus of the SDAs, - is a fraud. No one should follow this distorted, worthless theology.

Luke 21:8 And He said, “See to it that you are not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not go after them.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

In one of the longest Gospel passages about the Sabbath, Jesus claims to be the Good Shepherd, after he heals a man born blind on the 7th day. More than that, he also claims that this Good Shepherd can be identified by his active and guilt free doctrine of the Sabbath that the Jews hated. Read John 9 and 10 and learn the NC Sabbath directly from the Lord of the Sabbath.

In this great Sabbath debate, Jesus portrays himself as the Good Shepherd (sent from God) to promote an active and guilt free Sabbath doctrine for the Church. A doctrine that leads to Eternal Life and protection by God the Father. Christ teaches that his true Sheep will understand this new Sabbath, while most will follow the worthless hired hands, later to be eaten by wolves.

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

John 10:29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Jesus mighty Sabbath works, done in his Fathers name, represented a major change in the Two Covenants. The OC Sabbath of the 4th Commandment was being replaced by the Priestly version where the Levites could work on the 7th day without sin or guilt. The healed Jew confessed his belief in Jesus, as well as in this new, working Sabbath that gave him his sight on the 7th day. No more 4th Commandment for him. As a result, he was thrown out of Jewish community.

John 9:24 So a second time they called the man who had been blind, and said to him, “Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner.”

John 9:25 He then answered, “Whether He is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.”

John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”

John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”

John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.

John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.”

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”

John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

Today, legions follow Moses, even as they think they are following Christ. John 9 & 10 shows that Jesus does not promote or defend the Sabbath of Moses. He teaches an active, guilt free 7th day Sabbath that is unknown to any church today.

Pay attention: Those alleged Christians that follow the 4th Commandment; are following Moses, not Christ. The sign of the Good Shepherd is not keeping the 4th Commandment or Sunday worship. Rather, it is understanding and embracing the active, guilt free, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.

When the Gospel is clearly and correctly understood; so too the Gospel Sabbath.

Luke 6:40 A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

Mark 1:15 The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Mark 4:23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

tom_norris · 07-23-16 10:23 am

Adventists & the Sabbath

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/sev … VEOHQG/p61

The SDAs have the WRONG doctrine of the Sabbath. They reject Christ and his active, guilt free, New Covenant Sabbath. They prefer the Torah instead of the Gospels, claiming there is no Sabbath for the church but that of Moses and the 4th Commandment. Such anti-Christ legalism is fatal, because it blinds the mind from seeing Christ and the Gospel.

2Cor. 3:14-16 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The only hope for SDA’s is Jesus, not Moses; Gospel, not Law. This is was what the 1888 debates were all about. Those, like Uriah Smith, refused to embrace the New Covenant. They were fully committed to the Old Covenant Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. As a result, the SDA Empire in Battle Creek imploded as a result.

Once in Takoma Park, the Adventists tried to make some minor theological adjustments, even terminating Uriah Smith from the Review and promoting Christ as more important than the Law. But there was never any revision to the doctrine of the Sabbath, which is what ignited so much drama and debate in 1888.

In fact, the Takoma Park leaders declared the history of 1888 classified and top secret, even as they purchased the White Estate in order to take control of Ellen Whites writings and keep them hidden from the Adventist people. Thus the SDAs have never been told the full story about 1888, much less Ellen Whites true views about this great Sabbath debate. Which is why no SDA today thinks the 1888 was over the Sabbath, but this is exactly what it was. An in house debate, between 7th day Sabbatarians that has never been honestly addressed, much less understood or completed.

Today, Adventists are unaware that the 1888 controversy represents a great debate about the Sabbath; a debate that shows the SDAs have embraced false doctrine. But the history of 1888 has been discovered decades ago, which is why a new, active, and guilt free doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath has emerged for all to see. Sabbath Reform is not correct or complete and it is time that the SDAs understood this fact.

While the SDAs were correct to declare Sunday false, they must now repent for embracing the 4th Commandment instead of the active, guilt free, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. They must also repent for 1888, where they doubled down on the Old Covenant Sabbath, and again for covering up this important Gospel debate all these years. Shame on the White Estate!

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … uments.htm

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

SDA said: Jesus said all power has been given to me, in heaven and in the earth. Since he had all the power to create he needed to create, I'm putting all the creation of this world on Jesus, so that everything that was created was created by him.

Tom said: You have no right to change the Gospel Story. There is God the Father and then his Son. They are not the same. Nor are they equal. Jesus, as co-creator, is subordinate to God the Father and so too are we all. Moreover, Jesus claims that his active, guilt free, Sabbath doctrine comes from his father. Just as the father granted the Son to be Lord of all, so too has he given him authority to teach the New Covenant doctrine of the Sabbath. (Not to be confused with the 4th Commandment).

1Cor. 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished call rule and all authority and power.

1Cor. 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

1Cor. 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

1Cor. 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Jesus is clearly teaching an active, working, 7th day Sabbath. He is not, not, not, teaching the Old Covenant Sabbath of Moses, as the confused, dishonest, SDAs claim.

SDA said: there is a difference between teaching the law and the commandments. Love which is the end product of the Ten Commandments is different then the law which pointed to Jesus.

Tom said: Judaism contains many more laws than the 10 Commandments, but all are part of Judaism. Christians are not under any Old Covenant law; not the Moral or Ceremonial law.

I repeat: Those that embrace the Christian Faith cannot also claim to be under the 10 Commandments, or practice ritual circumcision, or Jewish food laws, etc. Such are Judaizers, following the Circumcision Party. They are not true Christians; Paul condemns them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaizers

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictiona … izers.html

Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

Moreover, the end of the law is not Love, but Gospel salvation, imputed to the sinner by faith, not law keeping. Faith in Christ takes one away from the Old Covenant. Why? Because the law has no power to accuse or inflict guilt on those in Christ. Which is why the Gospel Sabbath is active, and yet, guilt free.

Gal. 2:19 “For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

Gal. 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE” —

Gal. 3:14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Rom. 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

Rom. 10:2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

Rom. 10:3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Rom. 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

It is not enough to be zealous and passionate about religion. Legions embrace foolish and impossible theology, including the SDAs. However, Salvation is only for those few that understand the Gospel and carefully follow Christ. To follow Moses is certain death.

Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

SDA said: Jesus taught that if we loved him we wouldn't abuse our bodies by getting drunk, abusing harmful drugs, eating things that were not good for us/unclean (it's what goes in that defiles a person). Are you trying to say that the health laws God gave us are now evil because Jesus died on the cross?

Tom said: First, those that followed Christ were often beaten and abused. So this idea that following Christ is good for the body is absurd. It was very unhealthful to become a Christian.

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you, A slave is not greater than his master. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you;

Acts 22:4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons,

Acts 22:5 as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify. From them I also received letters to the brethren, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem as prisoners to be punished.

Second: Jesus teaches that the OC dietary laws ended at the cross. In the NC there are no clean or unclean foods, and so too does Peter and Paul, who learned this from Christ. In fact, you have misquoted Christ on this very point. He says the opposite of what you quoted. (No surprise!)

Matt. 15:10-11: After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand. It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

Mark 7:18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,

Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

Mark 7:20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man.

Mark 7:21 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,

Mark 7:22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.

Mark 7:23 “All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

No Christians are under any Old Covenant Food Laws, which were given to the Jews, not the Gentiles. There is no such theology as unclean or clean foods in the New Covenant. Period! While certain foods may not be healthy, no food or drink is sinful. (Drinking in excess is sin, but not the drink itself).

SDA said: Judas was in Christ. The other disciples were sure they were in Christ yet they fled. When the beliefs they were sure of came under pressure they folded up and denied Christ. They were sure they could trust their beliefs, doctrines, knowledge, ideas and would rather die then give them up, but when what they considered to be a sure thing changed before their eyes they ran away in terror.

Tom said: Many that argue for this or that religious point of view, do not know what they are talking about. The SDAs have far more error than truth, but yet they deny this obvious fact, which prevents them from repenting and moving forward to fulfill their eschatological destiny.

You are wrong about Judas. He was not in Christ; nor would he repent of his own views and learn the Gospel from Christ. In fact, Satan was in Judas. Thus Judas had his own satanic, anti-Gospel, agenda all along, as do many today.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”

Regardless, none of the disciples understood the Gospel, especially Peter, who tried to stop Jesus from going to the cross. Only after the resurrection did the apostles comprehend that Jesus was the Lamb of God, the sacrifice for all sin. Thus the New Covenant has surpassed the Old Covenant, even as the Church is the New Israel. But even then, Peter fell away from the Gospel and supported the Circumcision Party, a group that wanted to add Old Covenant law keeping (including the 4th Commandment) to the New Covenant. Peter was corrected by Paul in public for all to see.

Gal. 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

Key point: The Gospel is very difficult to understand. If Peter and all the others misunderstood it, while under the personal instruction from Jesus, it must be very hard to comprehend. And so it is, which is why so few will be saved. And why so few today correctly understand the Gospel, which includes the active, guilt free, NC Sabbath of Christ.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Second point: Once the Gospel is understood, it can be lost to legalism. After Peter correctly understood the Gospel, he fell back into keeping a number of Old Covenant doctrines, such as ritual circumcision, food laws, and Sabbath keeping. Paul corrected him, but the SDAs refused to be instructed by this Galatian Controversy, which is a litmus test for understanding the Gospel. This has been fatal for them:

Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Gal. 2:15 “We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles;

Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

SDA said: Tom, You talk a good game, but your resorting to rudeness and name calling makes it clear your teachings are fragile and based on misunderstanding of scriptures rather then the truth.

Tom said: This discussion is not about my opinions or views; rather it is about the genuine Sabbath teachings of Jesus. While I admit this active, guilt free doctrine of the 7th day is very surprising, even shocking to any SDA, (also to the Sunday keepers) it has nonetheless been in the Gospels since the beginning of the church. It is Gospel truth, (new wine), which cannot be denied.

Mark 2:22 “No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”

You have been presented with one Gospel passage after another where Jesus teaches his active, guilt free Sabbath. But you ignore the Word, preferring the Old Testament to the New; Moses instead of Christ.

Second: The active and guilt free Sabbath doctrine, though virtually unknown, is solid as a Rock: The Gospels contain scores of texts where Christ promotes, explains, defends, and teaches his active, guilt free, 7th day Sabbath. There are zero passages where he supports the 4th Commandment.

The Gospels contain the authentic teaching from Christ about the Sabbath. Period! There is nothing fragile or ambiguous about his theology; its just that you, like the Jews, are blinded by the Law and do not like Gospel Truth. You do not want to follow the genuine Christ, and neither do the Sunday keepers.

Third: You have the wrong spirit. It is those without the Spirit that refuse to read, remember, or understand the words and teachings of Jesus. The Spirit does not lead any Christian to read or follow Moses and the Old Covenant. Gospel Truth resides exclusively with Christ in the NT, not in the OT. The true Spirit points to Christ; NOT MOSES!

John 15:26 When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

John 16:13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

John 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Gal. 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

1Cor. 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Fourth: Jesus and the apostles referred to their enemies as liars, fools, and blind men; hypocrites, Sons of the Devil, and Dogs, etc. Such blunt names were not meant to be rude, but to defend and protect the Gospel. Truth must identify error and call out those that promote false doctrine.

Matt. 23:17 “You fools and blind men!

Matt. 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites,

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.

Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;

Titus 1:10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,

Titus 1:11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

Titus 1:12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”

Titus 1:13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,

Titus 1:14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

Paul bluntly told the Jews that they were blind and stupid to have rejected Christ. He wanted them to repent and embrace the Gospel. Thus he went out of his way to stir them up so they could repent. I feel the same way about the SDAs. They are very much like the Jews. They need to wake up!

Rom. 11:11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

Rom. 11:14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Rom. 11:15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Those that teach the Gospel will follow the example of Jesus and the Apostles and bluntly slam the enemies of the Gospel. Thus people learn the Gospel through contrast and debate.

While I do not know you, I do understand your theology. So I have to be honest and tell you that you do not know the Gospel, and that your tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Jesus is a worthless fraud. Repent and find the true Christ before it is too late!

Here are some names that fit your theology: They are not meant to be rude, but to motivate you to repent so that these names would no longer apply. You are against Christ, blind and deaf to the Gospel; a wretched judiazer, a member of the Circumcision Party, naked and unsaved unless you repent. Sorry.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Rev. 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

SDA said: 1). Saul became a new man with a new heart. He was born again right there in the OT.

Tom said: Stop trying to find the Gospel in the Old Testament. It is not there. Moreover, stop trying to find the Gospel from the book of Hebrews. Rather, learn the Gospel Sabbath directly from Christ in the Gospels. Why are you afraid to learn from Christ? He is the primary source that you must understand, or you are lost. At this point, you do not know Jesus. (Nor do you understand the story of Saul. He was a wicked King that displeased God.)

1Sam. 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.

SDA said: 2). Same gospel was preached to them in the OT. Even though the word gospel doesn't appear there, the gospel was preached there.

Tom said: Stop being so dull. Shadows and prophecy about the Gospel are not the same as the Gospel, which was a mystery to those living under the Old Covenant.

Stop pretending the OC and the NC are interchangeable and equal. They are neither. You, like all those that think they are living under the Old Covenant, need to learn the Gospel, because it is still a mystery.

Rom. 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

SDA said: If Jesus wasn't present in the OT then He is not the bread of life that came down from heaven, nor is He the water of life.

Tom said: You do not control history or make the rules. Jesus in only the bread of life if you understand the New Covenant Gospel and follow him. You do neither. Your Christ is a tithe paying, Sabbath keeping fraud that was first invented by the Circumcision Party. He is Moses in disguise. If you continue to refuse to comprehend Galatians, then you and the SDAs are doomed.

SDA said: To be honest no one has ever gotten so mad about me proving them wrong that they called me Moses in disguise.

Tom said: First, I am not mad at you. I am sorry for you because you are clueless about the Gospel, unsaved, and in the dark. You and the SDAs do not comprehend the New Covenant because you are obsessed with the Old Covenant. Very sad.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

Second, you have not come close to disproving either the Gospel or the NC Sabbath of Christ. The fact you think otherwise is sad.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing, and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Third, there are many bad names that you deserve to be called because you refuse to embrace the genuine Christ. Theologically speaking, you are a blind Pharisee fighting against Christ in a Sabbath debate. Thus Christ has judged you blind, your sins remaining unforgiven.

Moreover, you are a child of the Circumcision Party, a confused Judaizer, following Moses and Christ, as if there were the same. The Gospel does not allow for such willful, blind error. Your Christ is a fraud, and so too is your Old Covenant based, SDA religion.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

The SDAs are blind. Their Jesus is Moses in drag, even as they have been following a false, worthless Christ. No wonder Jesus calls the SDAs blind and naked in the Laodicean Message, for so they are!

SDA said: I fully believe that Hannah, was talking about Jesus, that her "rock" was Jesus Christ. 1 Samuel 2:2

Tom said: Those that have the Spirit will seek Gospel Truth directly to the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. Whatever he teaches, about any point, including the Sabbath, is what his true followers must embrace. There should be no debate about this point. The words of Jesus are the source of Eternal Life. (Those that have a false spirit will run everywhere, never finding truth. 2Tim. 3:7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.)

Matt. 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

However, those that run away from Christ, seeking to find the Gospel in the Old Covenant, are not being honest. These legalists do not know Christ or his Gospel as they claim. Their own words condemn them for all to see.

Hannah, an Old Covenant Jewess, has no teaching authority over any Christian. However, Christ has all authority over every Christian. Listen and learn the Gospel from Christ. Follow the Good Shepherd, which includes his active and guilt free, 7th day Sabbath.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 15:7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

SDA said: Isn't it interesting that Hannah moved by the Holy Spirit would call her people "saints" and mention the same gospel message Jesus preached.

Tom said: Only a false spirit would lead you to the Old Covenant words of Hannah. The Gospel cannot be found where you are looking. Why are you running away from the Spirit, and from Christ, who stands ready to teach you from the Gospels? Seek Christ, NOT Hannah.

Rom. 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Gal. 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Eph. 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.

I have shown you many Gospel passages from Christ about his active and guilt free Sabbath. But you ignore Jesus genuine teachings in favor of Hannah, an Old Covenant Jewess in the book of Samuel. Those that prefer the Old Testament to what Jesus teaches in the New Testament are in the flesh, lacking the Spirit of Christ. Their minds have become like stone, and so too their ears and eyes. The Gospel is beyond their comprehension. And so it will remain until they repent.

Acts 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead — by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

Acts 4:11 He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.

SDA said: Genesis 30:27-28: And Laban said unto him, I pray thee, if I have found favour in thine eyes, tarry: for I have learned by experience that the Lord hath blessed me for thy sake. 1). Tom says wages were unheard of in OT times yet here is an example of wages being earned and paid.

Tom said: I was speaking about the wilderness time period. After the Jews had escaped from Egypt. The man gathering sticks on the Sabbath was doing so for his personal use, and no doubt for the warmth of his family. We cannot assume he was hired by anyone. But regardless, no work was allowed on the 7th day, even if one was a servant working for wages. (Except the Levites, they could work on the Sabbath).

Num. 15:30 ‘But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Num. 15:31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.’”

Num. 15:32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day.

Num. 15:33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation;

Num. 15:34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him.

Num. 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”

Num. 15:36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

The 4th Commandment requires careful, serious obedience, or death will result. Those today that claim to obey it are only fooling themselves. First, they come nowhere close to obeying this law as given, and second, the Christian is not under the Jewish Sabbath law. So there is no point in trying to obey what is impossible and what has been abolished. Thank heaven for the active, guilt free Sabbath of Christ. It is far superior to the Sabbath of Moses, which leads to death.

SDA said: 2) It's interesting that the Holy Spirit would move you to use to post Exodus 31:14 that proves you wrong. Death came to the man because he "profaned" the Sabbath, not strictly because he was working on it.

Tom said: First, you do not speak for the Holy Spirit, so stop pretending. If you had the Spirit, you would understand that the Spirit does NOT direct anyone away from the Gospels. Rather, the Spirit directs people towards the words, sayings, and teachings of Christ in the Gospels. Not to Moses or to Hannah in the Old Covenant. Christ is the source of the Gospel.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Second: The passage makes it clear that working on the 7th day was the issue. Not worship. The 4th Commandment required complete rest; no work by anyone, not even a stranger or gentile, (except the Priests)

Ex. 31:15 For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Ex. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Ex. 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

Ex. 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

SDA said: 3). Since he was gathering sticks rather then working for wages I can say his problem was with worship just as easily as you can say it was about working.

Tom said: You are blind. The man broke the law of the 4th Commandment and was put to death by the command of God to Moses. This was about law breaking, not failing to worship.

Take a good look at the law you profess to cherish and follow. No SDA comes close to observing the Sabbath correctly, nor have they ever done so. They do far more than pick up sticks on the Sabbath; thus they stand guilty of Sabbath breaking over and over, just like the man picking up sticks. But yet, they profess love and obedience to the 4th Commandment, which is death to them.

John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

All that try to obey the 4th Commandment will not only fail, they will also lose out on Eternal Life, because they do not understand the Gospel. Note how different Jesus active, guilt free 7th day Sabbath is; which is unknown to the blind SDAs. They do not know Christ or his Gospel Sabbath.

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”

Gal. 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.

Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.

SDA said: 4). I can see now where your loving Christ like heart is coming from.

Tom said: Sarcasm is not a fruit of the Spirit. To be Christ like is to tell the truth about the Law and the Gospel. You do not know how the law functions, nor do you know Christ or his Gospel Sabbath. You have allowed the SDAs to brainwash you with worthless, Old Covenant thinking. You and the SDAs are in great darkness.

Luke 11:34 “The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is 2bad, your body also is full of darkness.

It is time for the Jews, err, I mean the SDAs to repent of their Old Covenant ways and learn about the active, guilt free, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. This is their only hope.

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Rev. 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

John 12:48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Are the SDAs listening to Christ? If so, they will repent?

Luke 8:18 So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.

Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!

Mark 4:23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewforum.php?id=11

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