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#476 04-09-15 12:22 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

Debating the Sabbath

Many from the SDA Community have been so badly brainwashed that it is difficult for them to have a rational discussion about the Sabbath.  They act like the 1st century Jews that also could not “see” or process the NC Sabbath of Christ.  In fact, the Jews pretended that they could not understand what Christ was teaching about the 7th day.  But Jesus knew they were just pretending to be blind because they didn’t like his Gospel instruction.  Many today play the same game.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

Tom Norris wrote: The Gospel and the Sabbath; When the Gospel was first preached by Christ, it featured his New Covenant doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, which stunned and angered the Jews.

Louie replied:  You can write anything, but can you back up your theory with scripture?

Tom said:  Wow!  How can you not know what the Gospels teach on this point?  The book of Mark clearly shows Jesus debating the Sabbath from the very beginning of his ministry.

Every Gospel features Jesus debating about the Sabbath with the Jews.  To deny such a fact is to deny the Gospel Story.  What is the matter with you?  Why can’t you understand the Words of Christ?  Why have you become an enemy of the Gospel?  What is the point of such an ignorant, mindless, anti-Christ attitude?  To protect your false views of the Sabbath?  The Jews did the exact same thing.  Thus you are following the enemies of Christ, not the genuine Christ of the NT.

Tom wrote:  Consequently, all during his ministry there was an ongoing theological dispute between Jesus and the Jews over the Sabbath, which is the reason Christ was sent to the cross.  Misunderstand these Sabbath debates and the Gospel cannot be properly comprehended.  This is what has happened to the church, which is why every denomination today practices a false doctrine of the Sabbath.  They are all blind to the NC teachings of Christ.

Louie said:  Misunderstand or ignore Matt 5:18-19 and I guess you can write anything and think you are correct in your thinking.   It was not Jesus intention to change any of the law including the Sabbath while He was teaching and healing.  Jesus was not teaching a "working" (laboring) Sabbath for the Jews.  He didn't come to do that as He said in Matt 5

Tom said:  You have not only misunderstood Matt 5: 18-19, but also overlooked scores of passages where Jesus teaches, defends, and instructs about the NC Sabbath.  Why do you play such dishonest games with the NT?  The Gospels are the written record of Jesus teachings.  They are not to be ignored, manipulated, or misused.  But yet, you have done all three, all the while accusing me of making up stories about Jesus.  You are being very foolish for all to see.

Of course it was Jesus “intention” to change the OC into the NC, which also required a new view of the Sabbath, as well as the Temple and many other things.  Jesus was not debating the Sabbath for no reason, nor was he promoting obedience to the 4th Commandment as the SDA’s absurdly teach.  It seems that you, along with most others, have no idea who Jesus is, or what he really teaches.  It seems you have never read the NT, except for a few passages that you misapply in your cultic confusion and ignorance.  Sad.

Tom wrote:  Moreover, it is important to note the close relationship between the emerging 1st century Gospel and the Sabbath debates.  The NT record shows that when the genuine Gospel is preached, a debate over the Sabbath quickly surfaces.  On the other hand, if there is no serious Sabbath debate taking place, then the genuine Gospel is most likely not under discussion.  This Gospel pattern applies to us today.  Whenever the genuine Gospel is promoted, so too the amazing and controversial 7th day Sabbath of Christ.  This NC doctrine clashes with tradition, generating debate from those that do not want to follow Christ.

Louie replied:  Jesus never told anyone that they must observe Sabbath or any other day.  The Sabbath is not part of the Gospel.  Not one Apostle taught keeping a day.  Jesus was/is all about saving mankind from our sins.  It was the Jewish leaders who fought Jesus because of His healing and eating on their holy day.  Jesus didn't come to teach a new covenant sabbath.  That is pure bunk.

Tom said:  There is no salvation for any that call the teachings of Jesus “bunk.”  Such a hostile position proves that you are not following Christ, much less paying attention to his Words.  You are self-condemned for all to see.  Shame on you.  No Christian can talk this way.  You are no friend of Christ, nor does he know you.

Of course Jesus’ Sabbath teaching is part of the Gospel.  That is why every Gospel shows Jesus teaching, debating, and defending his active and guiltless doctrine of the Sabbath.  One must be blind to miss all this Sabbath instruction from the head of the church. 

Tom wrote:  Adventist Reform understands and promotes the genuine Gospel of Christ, which includes and features his NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

Louie said:  You mean you and your mouse understands.....  If there were a new covenant doctrine of Sabbath observance then why didn't Jesus' Apostles expound on the subject?   Again, yours is pure bunk.

Tom said:  Why do you think every denomination in the long history of the church practices a weekly Sabbath, even to this very day?  Because the Gospels show Jesus teaching a NC Sabbath for the church.  Sunday represents the NC Sabbath of Christ, even if it is not fully correct and needs to be corrected.

Those that call the Gospel Sabbath of Christ “bunk” are enemies of Christ, just like the 1st century Jews that also claimed Jesus was an agent of the devil.  You would have made a good Pharisee in the 1st century.  No doubt you would have stood up and mocked Christ, calling his Gospel Sabbath pure “bunk.”

Tom wrote:  This is turn creates push back and debate from those that do not know or appreciate the teachings of the genuine Christ.  They are content with myths and half-truths, even as they place tradition above the written and clear teachings of Christ.

Louie said:  Only in your eyes Tom.

Tom said:  The Gospel Story is told through the eyes of Christ and his apostles.  It is what it is, not what we may want it to be, or what we were taught.  Those that refuse to understand and embrace the genuine teachings of Christ, including what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, are self-condemned.  They are spiritually blind, having no hope of Eternal Life.

Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

Tom wrote:  However, the very debate itself, as well as the emergence of the genuine Sabbath teaching of Christ, is good news.  Why?  Because it shows that the authentic Gospel, which includes the “amazing” and unexpected Sabbath doctrine of Christ, has emerged for all to ponder.  Thus the church is getting closer to understanding the Gospel and the correct doctrine of the Sabbath.  Here is more recent discussion and debate over the Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ.  Let those that seek truth pay attention.

Louie said:  "Where is the meat"?  Give us some examples.  Matt 5 tells us He didn't change any laws while alive.  I guess you know something the remainder of the World is not privy to.

Tom said:  The meat of the Gospel are the words, teachings, and sayings of Christ.  They are not secret, but available to the entire world.  If anyone wants to understand the Sabbath teachings of Christ, they must study the scores of Gospel passages where Jesus teaches on this point.  Those that refuse to be guided by the words of Christ will never understand the Gospel, much less receive Eternal Rest.

John 18:20 Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret.

Matt. 11:28  “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Many only know how to ignore, deny, or change the teachings of Christ, twisting his words to mean what they want him to say.  Such unholy manipulation will not lead to truth, but away from it.  Congratulations, mission accomplished.  You are clueless about the Gospel, like most all that have been raised in the legalistic cult of the SDA’s.  Sad.

Louie asked:  Tom, where, in the New Testament, or for that matter in the whole Bible, did Jesus or the Father ever ask Gentiles to observe any day?

Tom said:  Jesus NC Sabbath teachings were for all mankind, not just the Jews.  The Gospels make this point very clear.  However, Jesus dramatically changed how the day, which is based on the Creation Story, was to be observed.  Misunderstand this point, and the theology behind it, and you will never comprehend the Gospel correctly.  Again, congratulations; mission accomplished for you.

Tom wrote:  First, you are asking the question incorrectly.  This issue is not about “observing” the 4th Commandment as you assert, but the opposite.

Louie said:  Don't evade the question by telling me I didn't ask the question properly.  That is very degrading.  There are no wrong questions, so please agree or if you can disagree with scripture.

Tom replied:  No evasion necessary.  You don’t know what you are talking about, much less what Christ is talking about.  You are lost in a cultic fog of confusion and error, courtesy of the SDA’s.  Sad.

Moreover, where do you get this idea that there are no wrong questions?  This is not true.  Those that ask snarky, insincere, repetitive, and anti-Gospel questions, trying to find fault with the teachings of Christ, are committing a great sin.  They are asking the WRONG questions on purpose.  This is what the Jews did to Christ.  But Jesus knew what they were doing and so too do I know what you are doing.

Matt. 16:1  The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven.

Matt. 16:4 “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.” And He left them and went away.

Matt. 22:15   Then the Pharisees went and plotted together how they might trap Him in what He said.

Matt. 22:16 And they sent their disciples to Him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are truthful and teach the way of God in truth, and defer to no one; for You are not partial to any.

Matt. 22:17 “Tell us then, what do You think? Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?”

Matt. 22:18 But Jesus perceived their malice, and said, “Why are you testing Me, you hypocrites?

The Jews were full of “malice” and hatred towards Christ, and so too were their wrong and insincere questions.  They were not searching for truth, only trying to prove Christ wrong.

Mark 10:2  Some Pharisees came up to Jesus, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife.

Often times Jesus refused to answer these insincere and “wrong” questions.  Why?  Because he knew it was a waste of time.  His enemies were not searching for Gospel truth, but for a way to attack and destroy the Gospel, just like you.

Mark 11:27  They came again to Jerusalem. And as He was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to Him,

Mark 11:28 and began saying to Him, “By what authority are You doing these things, or who gave You this authority to do these things?”

Mark 11:29 And Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one question, and you answer Me, and then I will tell you by what authority I do these things.

Mark 11:30 “Was the baptism of John from heaven, or from men? Answer Me.”

Mark 11:31 They began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’

Mark 11:32 “But shall we say, ‘From men’?” — they were afraid of the people, for everyone considered John to have been a real prophet.

Mark 11:33 Answering Jesus, they *said, “We do not know.” And Jesus said to them, “Nor will I tell you by what authority I do these things.”

Even at his trial, Jesus refused to indulge those that asked insincere questions, which “amazed” Pilot.  All of which proves that there are wrong questions, which are not to be indulged over and over.

Mark 14:60 The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?”

Mark 14:61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”

Mark 15:4 Then Pilate questioned Him again, saying, “Do You not answer? See how many charges they bring against You!”

Mark 15:5 But Jesus made no further answer; so Pilate was amazed.

Those that ask misleading and insincere questions about the Gospel are self-condemned.  No answer will satisfy those looking to defend false doctrine.  Many today are following the enemies of Christ as they also ask worthless and wrong questions.

Tom wrote:  Jesus teaches that his followers DO NOT have to “observe” the 4th Commandment by resting.  (Which does not mean there is no 7th day Sabbath for the church, but that Jesus, the Lord of the Gospel Sabbath, was making major modifications to this creation based, OC Law.)

Louie said:  Scripture please, the following is not teaching Jews to work on the Sabbath.  Remember Jesus didn't come to change even a tittle of the law.  You are definitely off on a tangent.

Tom said:  Jesus not only healed people in public on the Sabbath, but he also instructed them to do some public task that was “not permissible.”  In this case, Jesus told the man, --not to proclaim that he had been healed, --but to walk around town carrying his bedroll for all to see such forbidden activity. 

If you pay attention to this Sabbath passage, you will note that the Jews were not angry about Jesus healing on the Sabbath, which they probably did not witness, but about the man carrying his bed all over town on the Sabbath.  THIS is why they were upset.  They only learned later that Jesus was behind this Sabbath breaking stunt.

More people saw the healed man hauling his bedroll around on the Sabbath than witnessed the actual healing.  But this was by design.  Jesus instruction to the healed man was meant to showcase his controversial Gospel Sabbath, and it was very effective.  It was a well-designed advertising campaign for the Gospel Sabbath.

Christ knew that is was not permissible to move furniture on the 7th day, much less to do so in public for all to see.  This is why he instructed the healed man to break the 4th Commandment.  He was teaching a very important point about the NC Sabbath.  What was not permissible under the OC is now permissible in the NC.  It is now no sin for anyone to work on the Sabbath.  This is the correct viewpoint for all that listen to Christ.

John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”

John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk.  Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”

John 5:11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’”

John 5:12 They asked him, “Who is the man who said to you, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk’?”

John 5:13 But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

Had the sick man remained committed to Moses, refusing to work on the 7th day, he would have remained crippled and unsaved.  But why not listen to the one that healed him and saved his life?  The man had little to lose.  His life had been horrible.  The OC Law had not helped him.

Just imagine what took place.  This healed man is now openly breaking the Sabbath Law, in Jerusalem, by walking around in public, carrying a load of bedding for all to see.  People are no doubt shouting at him to stop, but he keeps carrying his bedroll for all to see, as if on a mission to cause trouble with the religious authorities.  Which is exactly what happens.  And exactly what Jesus wanted to take place.  Why?  So Jesus could teach about the active and guiltless Gospel Sabbath that was made for all mankind. 

Jesus used his healing powers to promote and advertise the NC Sabbath.  His healings were not the basis for the NC Sabbath, much less the point.  But they were the driving force to promote this new, creation-based doctrine for the church.

So Louis, you have misunderstood this Sabbath passage where Jesus clearly instructs a sick man to break the Sabbath Law for all to see.  Thus, Jesus teaches a very different doctrine of the Sabbath that stunned, amazed and outraged the Jews. 

At the end of time, the genuine Sabbath of Christ will also stun and madden the organized church.  Why?  Because, like the Jews, they too like their self-serving traditions.  They too refuse to embrace the Gospel teachings of Christ.  The leaders in the Laodicean church today are just as wrong and corrupt as were the 1st century Jews that killed Christ.  This is why they ignore the Gospel Sabbath of Christ and whatever else they don’t like.

The active and guiltless Sabbath of Christ is no side issue or tangent.  It is serious Gospel truth for the sincere of heart.  Misunderstand and reject what Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, and the Gospel will become impossible to comprehend.  Jesus called such people blind and lost.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

Tom wrote: Jesus teaches that the 4th commandment is NOT to be observed by his followers, even as he also teaches a guilt free, active Sabbath of Gospel liberty.  Here is true “religious freedom” from the guilt of OC law.

Louie said:  Scripture please, remember Matt 5?

Tom said:  One Gospel passage, taken out of context, DOES NOT wipe out scores of passages that you don’t like.  Such methodology is very dishonest, misleading, and unprofessional.  You need to stop playing games with the Word.  If you want to understand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ, then you must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him.  There are scores of such verses to process and learn.

Tom wrote: John 8:36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Louie screamed:  WOW! Talk about SDAs taking verses out of context, you are a pro.

Tom said: One of us is having a very hard time hearing the Gospel of Christ.  One of us is very blind and confused, lacking an honest hermeneutic.  I think it is you, my friend.  I think you are in the dark by choice.

John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is a living parable of the Gospel.  It underscores, on a weekly basis, that the Christian is free from the power and guilt of the Law, even though they are still sinners.

Tom wrote:  Second, the real question is this: what does Jesus, the head theologian of the church teach about the Sabbath?  Whatever it is, those that follow him must embrace and practice what he teaches.

Louie said:  You tell me with scripture.

Tom said:  Like the Jews, your eyes and ears are closed to the Gospel teachings of Christ.  As a result, you have failed all these years to learn the Sabbath teachings of Christ and thus you are in the dark.  You cannot, and do not, understand the Gospels because you refuse to believe the words of Christ.

John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
    WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
    AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
    OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
    HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
    AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
    AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Tom wrote:  Jesus never taught anyone to keep Sunday special, as if it were the NC Sabbath, much less to rest on the 1st or 7th day.  Nor did he teach an Every Day spiritual rest as some today claim.  The Gospels clearly define Jesus’ Sabbath doctrine for all to see.  Only a blind person could fail to see this.

Louie said:  True about Sunday, that is not the issue here.  Jesus didn't need to teach Sabbath rest.  That was indoctrinated into all of Judaism from Sinai.  He did tell us to come to Him for Rest and He didn't specify a day.  All days are open to rest in Him.

Tom said:  When it comes to understanding the Sabbath of Christ, it is necessary to deal with Sunday.  It cannot be ignored because most embrace this doctrine as the NC Sabbath.  But as you know, there is no such doctrine.  Good for you and for the SDA’s that taught you this correct point.

As for Jesus teachings about the Sabbath, he refused to promote rest on the 7th day and in fact promoted activity and action in place of rest.  This is why we see Jesus command those that have been inactive and crippled, resting on the Sabbath as the law teaches, to pick up their bedroll and walk around for all to see.  The Gospel is a fast moving, bloody action story; it is not about rest, much less on the 7th day.

John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”

John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk.  Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”

John 5:11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’”

While Jesus claimed to be all the spiritual rest anyone could ever need, 7 days a week, he refused to practice or teach that the 7th day was for physical or spiritual rest.  This is why the Jews were so angry with him.  They could not understand his active and guilt free Sabbath, or this new theology about everyone being a priest of God, which is the theological basis for Jesus NC Sabbath.  These strange NC ideas made no sense to the legalistic Jewish mind. 

The Sabbath doctrine of Christ is truly “amazing.”  It is a most under-rated and misunderstood doctrine.  Only when this doctrine is correctly comprehended, can the Gospel be fully understood.

Tom wrote:  Third, Jesus claims and teaches that his controversial NC doctrine of the Sabbath came from God, and that he was instructed to teach it by his Father. 

Louie said:  Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.  If He chooses to break the ritual law it is His privilege.  He didn't teach the Jews to break it indiscriminately.

Tom said:  First, Jesus is Lord of the NC Sabbath, not the OC version that he is repudiating. Christ breaks the OC Sabbath in order to promote the NC Sabbath.

Second, the 4th Commandment is both ceremonial and Moral, being given by the hand of God to Moses.  But Jesus is greater than Moses and the law, even the Temple.  He has authority over all doctrine, including the Sabbath for all mankind, which he created when the world was made.

Third, Jesus broke the 4th commandment every 7th day of his ministry.  And he taught others to do the same.  While Moses says the people must “rest” on the Sabbath, refraining from all activity and work; Jesus says the opposite.  We must work on the 7th day, and yet, remain guiltless.

John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

Misunderstand the active and guilt-free Sabbath doctrine of Christ and you can be sure that you have also misunderstood the Gospel, by which all are saved.  Congratulations, you have done both!

Tom wrote:  Fourth, The Gospel is for the WORLD, not just the Jews,

Louis said: You got that correct.

Tom said:  Yes, just as the Gospel is for all mankind, so too the Gospel Sabbath.  That is why Jesus uses the word MANKIND and not Jew in Mark 2: 27, 28, when he references the NC Sabbath.  While the OC Sabbath was made only for the Jews, the NC Sabbath was made, like the church, for all mankind, both Jew and Gentile.

Tom wrote: and so too Jesus’ active, working, 7th day Sabbath that is made for all mankind.

Louie said:  I believe the scripture says it was made for man not mankind, man being Jew man (Israelites) at Sinai Deut 5.

Tom said:  Wow!  So you think Jesus made up a new word called “Jew man?”  Really?

I believe you are being very dishonest and foolish.  You should know that the original language does not say Jew, or “Jew man,” but mankind, as in humankind.  Anyone can go online and establish this fact, fact, fact.  Why do you seek to make Jesus say what you want to hear?  You must play the roles of student and let Christ be the teacher if you want to learn the Gospel.

Every Bible translation in the world uses the word “mankind” in Mark 2:27 and 28.  Moreover, there is no such phrase or word as “Jew man.” Nor is Christ speaking about the OC Sabbath of the Jews as you claim.  You must stop trying to change the holy words of Christ to fit your false views.  This is blasphemy.

http://biblehub.com/mark/2-27.htm

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Jesus knew how to say the word Jew, but he did not.  He said MANKIND, which is not even close to the word Jew.  Jesus, a Jew, teaches that the NC Sabbath is for all humanity, both Jew and Gentile.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Jesus is not speaking about, nor promoting, a Sabbath for the Jews, which would be the 4th commandment.  Nor did he declare himself to be the “Son of the Jews” or the “Son of Moses.”  No.  He is the Son of God and also the Son of all mankind, both Jew and Gentile, thus the Son of Man (kind).

There is zero possibility that Jesus is promoting himself as the Son of the Jews, much less embracing or defending the OC Sabbath of the Jews. Jesus knows how to say the word Jew when he wanted to do so.  There is no chance he has become confused on this point.  You are the one in the dark.

John 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

John 18:20 Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world; I always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and I spoke nothing in secret.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Forget this fraud about the NC Sabbath being made for the “Jew man.”  Jesus does not teach any such thing.  Thus you need to repent, not debate with Christ.

Tom wrote:  Here is the correct Sabbath doctrine for the church, both Jew and Gentile.

Louis said:  If the Sabbath was made for everyone then why wasn't it proclaimed to all the World?  Why didn't the New Testament writers proclaim the day? Why hasn't all the World conformed ever to a day, any day, if God has made it for everyone?

Tom replied:  First, every church, Catholic or Protestant, teaches and practices a weekly doctrine of the Sabbath as part of the Gospel.  So the Sunday/Sabbath has been “proclaimed” to the entire world as part of the Gospel Story.  How could you not know this fact?

Second, the Gospel writers have written close to 400 verses about the Sabbath in the four Gospels.  So much that it cannot be missed except by the blind.  How much info does one need to understand what Jesus teaches about this topic?  There is more than sufficient instruction in the Gospels to understand the Sabbath for those that seek truth.

Third, the Gospels contain detailed 7th day Sabbath instruction directly from Christ.  The apostles not only made it clear what day Jesus was talking about, but also how it was to be observed, which is not by resting or refraining from work.  Only a blind person could miss so much Sabbath instruction from Christ.

Louie said:  Jesus came to save His special people.  He even told them that he didn't come to change the law.  In His ministry we do not see Him going to the Gentile nations and directing them to keep Jewish law.

Tom wrote:  Jesus teaches that he came to save the WORLD, both Jew and Gentile through the Gospel, not through the Law.  So why would you expect Christ to promote OC law? 

Moreover, to follow Christ, it is necessary to be born again as a “spiritual Jew.” Why?  Because the Gospel story is 100% Jewish.  Any follower of Christ is part of the new Israel of God, thus all that follow Christ are very special.  Those that follow Moses are doomed.

Louie said:  Jesus changed nothing before His death on the Cross.  The law stood until it was finished, finished on the Cross, which ushered in the new covenant by His shed blood on the Cross.

Tom said:  Jesus taught, preached, and lived the Gospel before his death on the cross.  To deny this fact is to deny the Gospel Story.

Mark 1:14   Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,

Mark 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Louie said:  Never once did He instruct Gentiles to observe any part of the Torah.

Tom replied:  Wrong.  Jesus instructed his followers to follow the God of Moses and to love him and their neighbors.  This instruction by Jesus comes directly from the Torah, as does many other things that Jesus teaches, including the Creation Story and the fact that there is a 7th day Sabbath.  Jesus also follows the Torah when he teaches that it is wrong to murder, etc.  So your statement is easily shown to be wrong and very foolish.

Louie said:  Jesus came to save the Jews.  He offers salvation to all.  He was teaching Jews to love, not Gentiles.  The lesson does apply to us, but he was directing Himself to the audience of Jews, that was his mission.

Tom said:  While Jesus was sent to the Jews, his Gospel teachings were for both Jew and Gentile.  This is why the Gospels show Jesus dealing with and healing Gentiles, like the Roman soldier.  Such became the first Gentile Christians.

John 10:16 “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Matt. 8:5  And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him,

Matt. 8:6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented.”

Matt. 8:7 Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”

Matt. 8:11 “I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;

Matt. 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matt. 8:13 And Jesus said to the centurion, “Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed that very moment.

Although you have been a Christian all your life, you really do not know Christ or his teachings.  The SDA’s have confused your mind about the Gospel and it shows.

Louie asked:  How do you come to the conclusion He was teaching Christians a new concept of Sabbath observance?   

Tom wrote:  First, how can anyone read the Gospels and conclude that Jesus was not teaching a new doctrine about the Sabbath?

Louie said:  I can, and so could you if you would read Matt 5: 18-19

Tom replied:  First, you have not read the Gospels.  If you had, you would know that there are scores and scores of passages where Jesus teaches and debates the Sabbath.

Second, taking Matt 5 out of context is no way to understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath.  Nor does any single text wipe out and repudiate scores of passages where Jesus teaches about the Sabbath.  To “learn” the Sabbath of Christ, one must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn from him.  It is a simple concept.

Matt. 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

Third:  Who wants to be like you?  You are a blind and naked man that thinks he is fully sighted and clothed.  You are unable to repent, much less deal honestly with the Word, even as you routinely ignore whatever teachings from Jesus you don’t like, which is a lot.  You are not a proper example for anyone trying to understand the Gospel.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

Tom wrote:  From the beginning of Jesus ministry and all the way through, there was great conflict and debate between Christ and the Jews over the 7th day Sabbath.  In fact, the Gospels teach that Jesus was sent to the cross specifically because of his position about the Sabbath.  Which means Jesus was not teaching the Sabbath of Moses.  He was teaching something very different, which they did not like. 

Louis said:  Jesus’ mission was not teaching the Sabbath in any form, it was to redeem mankind and the plan was to disgruntle people into thinking He was teaching opposition to Moses so that in a full blown issue would result in Jesus death.

Tom said:  The Gospels are full of Jesus NC Sabbath instruction.  To deny this fact is to deny the NT and repudiate Christ.  In fact, Jesus was so intent to promote and protect his NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath that he claimed to be its’ Lord and protector.  To deny what is so plainly written in the Gospels is to deny the genuine Christ.

Jesus saves mankind only through the Gospel, which includes his NC Sabbath instruction.  The Jews killed Christ because they did not want their OC traditions to change.  They hated the Gospel, including Jesus’ idea that all were priests of God and thus all are exempt from the 4th Commandment like the Levites. 

Such NC theology was hated by the religious establishment because it represented the end of their control and power over the people.  The end of their easy money.

John 11:45  Therefore many of the Jews who came to Mary, and saw what He had done, believed in Him.

John 11:46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things which Jesus had done.

John 11:47  Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.

John 11:48 “If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”

There is only one Good Shepherd in the Gospels.  This genuine Christ can be identified by his active and guiltless, 7th day Sabbath.  Those sheep that follow another Jesus, like the 4th Commandment keeping SDA’s, or the Sunday keepers, or even the Everyday Sabbath crowd, - are following a fraudulent Christ and a worthless religion.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Matt. 24:11 “Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

John 5:24  “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform/ New Covenant Adventism

Offline

#477 08-27-15 11:07 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

Sabbath Questions For Tom Norris:

Is the Sabbath in the Old testament different from that of the New Testament?

I have read from you past discussions that you stated that the Sabbath of the Old testament by Moses is different from that of the New testament.

Are you implying that the Sabbath commandment of the Old testament was a commandment by Moses?

i believe that the God of the Old testament is one and the same God of the new testament. whatever commandment He had given will never change for God is immutable.

Eugene
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ions-1.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom Norris replies:  Thank you for asking this very perceptive Sabbath question.  It is a critical and fundamental point that few have considered.  However, it sounds like you are an SDA that thinks there is no difference between the 4th Commandment and the NC Sabbath for the Church.  If so, you and the SDA’s are in for a great shock.

Consider these points:

1) There are TWO doctrines of the weekly 7th day Sabbath in the Old Testament. 

A) One for most of the people (the 4th Commandment), and

B) Another for the Levitical Priests. 

It is a serious theological mistake to think there is only one doctrine of the Sabbath in both Covenants.  False assumptions lead to incorrect conclusions.

2) Only one of these TWO Old Covenant Sabbath doctrines morphed into the NC Sabbath. It was the Priestly version, not the law based 4th Commandment, as the SDA’s teach.

3) Jesus teaches an active, priestly-based, guilt-free, 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels for all to see.  He never rested on the Sabbath or taught that anyone should follow the 4th Commandment, which he routinely broke.  Jesus does not follow, defend, or promote the 4th Commandment as the SDA’s teach.  Shocking, but true.

4) Christians are not under the 4th Commandment law at any point, as the Galatian debate makes clear.  Jesus created an active and free 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the Church.  It is not like the 4th Commandment whatsoever.  While it is the same 7th day, based on the same Creation Story, it is a very different doctrine, which the legalistic Jews hated.

Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

5) The Laodicean church must repent for their many false views of the NC Sabbath, or be condemned. (See Rev 3: 14, the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of the last Church, which is the Laodicean Message).

6) Jesus’ active, priestly view of the 7th day Sabbath is the sign of the genuine Christ and the Good Shepherd brand. This famous parable is part of a long Sabbath debate between Jesus and the Jews. (See John 9,10)  Those that follow Christ for Eternal Life will embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. 

7) Eternal Life is for those that “see clearly” what Jesus teaches; they will understand the genuine Gospel Sabbath, which features the active, 7th day instruction of Christ.  The Sabbath doctrine separates those who are following the genuine Christ from those who are not.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

Jesus teaches that those who refute his doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath are spiritually blind.  And guess what?  Those Jews that refused Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath were doing so in order to defend the 4th Commandment.  They value the OC law over the NC Gospel and the new priesthood of Christ.  The SDA’s have done the same thing!

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1  “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

The SDA’s, like the Jews they emulate, teach an OC, legalistic Sabbath.  They do not realize that they are not under OC law, much less under the 4th Commandment, where working on the Sabbath was punished by death.  Nor do they comprehend the genuine 7th day, priestly-based Sabbath of Christ.  They are spiritually blind, unable to tell the difference between the Good Shepherd or common thieves and robbers.

Question: Is the Sabbath in the Old Testament different from that of the New Testament?

Answer:  Yes. Yes. Yes.  Not only is the OC Sabbath different from the NC Sabbath, there are TWO very different weekly doctrines of the Sabbath contained in Judaism.  Before one can understand the genuine Gospel Sabbath of the NC, these different OC doctrines must be clearly understood.

Two Different OC Sabbath Doctrines

The Sabbath of the 4th Commandment was the primary doctrine for most Jews.  But not all.  The Levites were not bound by the 4th commandment.  They were allowed to work on the 7th day without sin or guilt.  Here was a special Sabbath doctrine ONLY for the Priests.

So there are TWO very different OC doctrines of the weekly 7th day Sabbath.  Jesus discards one of these doctrines, the 4th Commandment, while promoting the priestly Sabbath for the church, and all mankind.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Which Sabbath is Jesus promoting in this passage?  The 4th Commandment? 

No. 

He is speaking about the active, working, priestly Sabbath that will now represent the Gospel.  Moses is associated with the 4th commandment law that leads to fear, guilt, and condemnation.  The SDA’s have the wrong Sabbath doctrine, for which they must repent. 

The NC Sabbath of Christ

In the NC, Jesus does NOT teach, defend, or follow the 4th Commandment.  Rather, he teaches a Priestly based, active Sabbath.  Why?  Because all that believe in the Gospel, male or female, are priests of God.  Those in the NC are to follow Jesus’ priestly doctrine of the Sabbath, which is an active 7th day as opposed to the uncomfortable rest of the 4th Commandment. 

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Heb. 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Rev. 1:6   He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father — to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

The SDA’s, as well as everyone else, must repent of their false views of the Law and the Gospel.  There is not one church or denomination that teaches the correct NC Sabbath of Christ, including the arrogant SDA’s.  They were getting close, but then they fell into gross legalism and embraced the non-priestly Sabbath of Moses, the 4th Commandment.  Huge mistake.  Fatal, if not corrected. 

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Luke 6:46  “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

Let everyone understand:  The NC Sabbath is NOT, NOT, NOT, the 4th Commandment.  (Nor is it Sunday or the Every Day Sabbath)  While this seems shocking and heretical to SDA’s, it is nonetheless 100% true.  Jesus does not teach the OC resting Sabbath of the OC Jews.

Question:  I have read from your past discussions that you stated that the Sabbath of the Old Testament by Moses is different from that of the New Testament.

Answer:  Yes, the OC Sabbath is very different from the NC Sabbath. 

While both are on the same day, the 7th, and both are anchored to the Genesis creation story, one is focused on rest and the other works. 

The OC promotes a forced rest under penalty of death, as well as subordination to a separate and superior priesthood.  The NC Sabbath of Christ promotes good works, as well as a new and all-inclusive priesthood, which also comes with personal freedom from guilt, OC law, and sin.

There are over 20 verses in the Bible where the “law of Moses” is used.   This term includes the 10 Commandments. The “Sabbath of Moses” also means the 4th Commandment.  When Jesus claims to be the Lord of the Sabbath, he is not talking about the 4th Commandment, only his active, NC, guilt free Sabbath.

1Kings 2:3 “Keep the charge of the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to what is written in the Law of Moses, that you may succeed in all that you do and wherever you turn,

Luke 24:44  Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Moses Sabbath demanded complete rest from all activity and work on the 7th day.  No fires could be started, nor food prepared, etc., under pain of death.  In fact, one man was put to death because he broke the Sabbath by gathering firewood.  Such was the primary OC Sabbath law of God, administered by Moses.

Ex. 31:15   For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Ex. 35:2   “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Ex. 35:3 “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

Lev. 23:3  ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is a sabbath to the LORD in all your dwellings.

Num. 15:32  Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day.

Num. 15:33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation;

Num. 15:34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him.

Num. 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”

Num. 15:36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

By contrast, read what Jesus teaches about his Gospel Sabbath.  Does he threaten people with death if they work, cook, or light fires on the Sabbath?  Does Jesus teach that the 7th day is for complete “rest”?

No. No. No. And No.

Christ teaches an active Sabbath for the church where there is no sin or guilt for working on the 7th day.  The NC Sabbath is not for rest.

This is why Jesus heals people on the 7th day, and then tells them to walk around town with their bedroll to show everyone what has taken place.  This is why Jesus keeps promoting his active, working Sabbath that he learned from his Father, God. 

John 5:8 Jesus said to him, “Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.”

John 5:9 Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk.   Now it was the Sabbath on that day.

John 5:10 So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, “It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet.”

John 5:11 But he answered them, “He who made me well was the one who said to me, ‘Pick up your pallet and walk.’”

Jesus’ NC Sabbath doctrine is based on the superiority of Christ over the Law of Moses; combined with the priesthood of all believers, which was also totally rejected by the Jews. 

To reject what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in the 1st century, (and even today), is to reject the Gospel.  This is what the Jews did, and so too the entire church today.  Every denomination has a false Gospel and thus a false Sabbath doctrine and a false, worthless Christ.

John 5:15 The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.

Jesus NC Sabbath doctrine caused great “division” among the Jews.  They were very confused and conflicted. 

Moses, an OC figure, teaches a resting, non-working, Sabbath of the 4th Commandment; associated with guilt, sin, and condemnation, even death; 

Jesus, who claims to be from God, teaches a priestly based, working, guilt free, doctrine of the 7th day.  One that reflects Gospel freedom from the Law (both moral and ceremonial); resulting in Eternal Life, through the Lord of the Sabbath.

John 8:36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

The Gospels are full of Jesus Sabbath instruction.  Christ debates the Jews over the Sabbath constantly, making them furious in the process.  There is no excuse today for anyone to be confused about what Moses and Christ teach about the Sabbath.  They are not the same doctrine.

Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Why were the Jews so angry with Christ?  Because he was repudiating the 4th Commandment given to Moses by God and introducing a new model of the priesthood, Temple, and Law.  Those Jews in power wanted nothing to do with such strange ideas.  The Jews loved the OC, they had no desire for the NC, which is why they killed Christ and tried to destroy the infant church.

Let everyone understand:  Jesus teaches an active, working, priestly-based doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.  The opposite of what Moses and the Jews teach under OC law.  The opposite of what the SDA’s teach today.

John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.

John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.”

Today, the SDA’s are following the OC Sabbath of Moses.  They do not understand, much less embrace, the active, guilt free, 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.  Like the blind Jews, they have never imagined an active, 7th day Sabbath doctrine, much less a priesthood where everyone, even women, are equal.  Which proves that they don’t know how to read the Bible or the Gospels, much less follow Christ as they pretend. 

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

To know Christ is to understand what he teaches about the Sabbath.  Proving that few have any real knowledge of the Gospel.  Sad.

Question: Are you implying that the Sabbath commandment of the Old Testament was a commandment by Moses?

Answer:  No.  The 4th Commandment was written by God and given to Moses.  God is the author of both OC Sabbath doctrines (non-priestly and priestly).  In fact, before Moses had the first Sabbath breaker punished to death, he consulted with God. 

Num. 15:32  Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day.

Num. 15:33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation;

Num. 15:34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him.

Num. 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”

Num. 15:36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

However, there is another weekly doctrine of the Sabbath for the Levites that had to run the Temple system.  While the 4th Commandment gets most of the attention from the church, the priestly, active doctrine of the Sabbath should not be overlooked or ignored.  It too came from the mind of God. 

Moreover, it is very important because this is the theological basis that Christ uses to establish his NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

Question: I believe that the God of the Old Testament is one and the same God of the New Testament. Whatever commandment He had given will never change for God is immutable.

Answer:  God created the OC as a temporary paradigm; to be replaced with the NC.  So not only does God change, he builds change into his cosmic and theological plans. 

Luke 5:36 And He was also telling them a parable: “No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.

Luke 5:37 “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.

Luke 5:38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.

Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

While the 1st century world knew all about OC Judaism, no one knew anything about this NEW religion about Jesus.  It was “new.”  Which is why Paul was invited to give a speech in Athens to explain.

Acts 17:17 So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.

Acts 17:18 And also some of the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers were conversing with him. Some were saying, “What would this idle babbler wish to say?” Others, “He seems to be a proclaimer of strange deities,” — because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection.

Acts 17:19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new teaching is which you are proclaiming?

Acts 17:20 “For you are bringing some strange things to our ears; so we want to know what these things mean.”

Acts 17:21 (Now all the Athenians and the strangers visiting there used to spend their time in nothing other than telling or hearing something new.)

While the God of the OT is the same as the NT; This God is all about change.  It was his master plan to create a NEW Gospel religion in the 1st century.  There had never been a religion based on the resurrection of an executed Jewish criminal.  It was so new and far out that the crowd sneered and laughed Paul off the stage.

Acts 17:32  Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, “We shall hear you again concerning this.”

Acts 17:33 So Paul went out of their midst.

With such a fact pattern how can anyone pretend that the NC teachings of Christ are the same as the OC teachings of Moses?

This outrageous idea that the OC is the same as the NC is poison.  It is very dangerous and wrong.  While the SDA’s think they are being slick by claiming to teach a “balanced” Gospel that includes both Justification and sanctification, they are making fools of themselves, because this is not how the Protestant Gospel is defined.  They are very confused and wrong about many things, including and especially the Sabbath.

Heb. 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. 

This means the 4th Commandment is obsolete.  Which is why Christ promoted something better in its place.

There is a reason why the Bible is divided into two major sections.  One for the Old Testament and the other for the New.  They are not the same.  Nor are they to be blended together as if they are equal.  One is old and represents death, while the other represents forward progress in Christ, the new high priest of God who gives Eternal Life for free.

2Cor. 3:5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

2Cor. 3:6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Cor. 3:7  But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

2Cor. 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

2Cor. 3:9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

2Cor. 3:10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.

2Cor. 3:11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

While God is the same in both Covenants, and so too the creation story, God made a dramatic shift, through Christ, from the OC to the NC.  This change in the law, Sabbath, temple, and priesthood was God’s plan all along.  Too bad the Jews misunderstood.

John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

Col. 1:25  Of this church  I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

Col. 1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

To understand the difference between the New and Old Covenants is the most difficult and confusing part of church history and theology.  Misunderstand these differences, and it will be impossible to understand the Gospel correctly, including and especially the doctrine of the Sabbath.  (Which the SDA’s, and all others, have very wrong.)

Law & Gospel
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1122

At some point, the Laodicean church, meaning all denominations, is going to choose between a number of false views of the Sabbath; or the one and only Gospel Sabbath of Christ.  At this point, there is not one denomination that embraces the genuine NC Sabbath, least of all the SDA’s.  Pitiful.

See also:

The Reformed 7th day Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

SDA Sabbath Vs. Gospel Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=836

Conclusion:

The Adventist were very correct to stand up and oppose the popular Sunday Sabbath.  They were also correct to teach that only the 7th day could be the NC Sabbath.  Moreover, their position that the NC Sabbath would play a role in the final Gospel proclamation in Rev 18 is also correct.

But here is where Adventism has gone wrong. 

They have embraced the WRONG doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.  They have followed the OC version instead of the Gospel Sabbath, (which is based on the priestly model instead of the 4th Commandment).  They have embraced the OC Sabbath of Jesus enemies, even as they are clueless about the active, NC Sabbath of Christ.

There is a 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church.  However, it is not the 4th Commandment, but something very different.  When the church fully understands the Gospel, they will also understand the genuine, 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ.

I suggest that everyone take off their traditional blinders and go directly to Christ in the Gospels to learn the correct, radical, and surprisingly free doctrine of the Sabbath.  Start with Mark, the oldest Gospel and see how early the Sabbath debates start.  Let all learn the New Covenant Sabbath directly from Christ in the Gospels.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Mark 3:1  He entered again into a synagogue; and a man was there whose hand was withered.

Mark 3:2 They were watching Him to see if He would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse Him.

Read and study the many scores of Gospel verses that contain Jesus specific, NC, Sabbath teaching and follow what he teaches.  Do not take the position of the faithless Jews against Christ and defend the 4th Commandment.  To do so is to repudiate Christ, the Good Shepherd.

Let all listen to Christ, the Lord of the NC, 7th day Sabbath.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism
http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

Offline

#478 05-27-17 11:30 am

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: The Reformed Sabbath

Spectrum: Where Double-talk & Censorship Control:

I often view the latest discussions on Spectrum, even though I have long been banished from posting any comments.  This is because all Adventist Media is a closed, dishonest system where propaganda and manipulated views reign.  Anyone that dares speak up to point out errors of fact, are treated with censorship and contempt.  No wonder the Advent Movement is dying for all to see.  Fake theology and endless double-talk will not prepare the world for the Second Coming. 

Drop the Mic: Reincarnating the Adventist Faith Part 3
http://conversation.spectrummagazine.or … rt-3/13565

The problem with most every discussion and article about Adventist theology is the assumption that the SDA’s have correctly understood Sabbath Reform.  While they struggle to present their primary doctrine to the world, they are clueless to the fact that their Sabbath doctrine is not fully correct.  Here is a point that they do not want to hear, much less acknowledge.

However, this major blind spot must be resolved or there is no hope for Adventism.  To be blunt: the SDA’s do not fully understand Jesus New Covenant Sabbath teaching, preferring Moses Old Covenant views instead.  Unless this major error is corrected, the Advent Movement cannot go forward.

Yes, Sunday is false doctrine.  But so too what the SDA’s teach.  Jesus does not, not, not, promote the 4th Commandment, as if it were sinful to work on the 7th day.  In fact, Jesus never taught that the 7th day was for rest, nor did he ever rest on that day.  All four Gospels clearly show Jesus promoting a Priestly (Levitical) doctrine of the Sabbath, where work and activity were guilt free on the 7th day. 

Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

Reformed 7th day Sabbath
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=228

It is long past time for the SDA’s to stop assuming they are 100% correct about the Gospel Sabbath.  They are not.  While they have the right day, they have misunderstood the doctrine. They need to wake up, repent, and complete Sabbath Reform. 

Old Covenant Adventism must make the transition to New Covenant Adventism.  The 7th day Sabbath must carefully reflect the Gospel teachings of Christ, not the legalistic theology of his Jewish enemies.  What a pity that such an important discussion is censored by Spectrum, proving that they are part of the problem.   Shame on Spectrum.  They are in the dark.

Luke 6:39  And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

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