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Tom, I have listened to the product of your hermeneutic but it has not clarified what this means:
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
1. For He Himself is our peace -- you have at times stated that you did not see how a man or Jesus could fulfill a day by being our rest and yet this passage says that Jesus is our Peace as Col 2:16-17 states.
2. What was the barrier between Jew and Gentile? -- Was it not Circumcision and the Sabbath, unique signs of being a Jew? Was that not the barrier that Jesus destroyed or fulfilled in His Flesh. His main objective, "...., thus making peace."
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the following is from pg 158 New Covenant Theology:
So then, how dow we understand a given Mosaic command today? The difficulty is simplified considerably if we opt to accept all Mosaic commands as binding unless the NT specifically tells us otherwise. Alternatively it makes things very easy if we simply rule out every Mosaic command unless it is specifically reissued in the in the NT. But these options are not just simple -- they are simplistic and they overlook our Lord's role as Moses' fulfiller and completer. Perhaps a few example wil help.
First note the Mosaic prohibition of bestiality (Exodus22:19; Lev 16:23; 20;16; Deut 27;21). This command is no where repeated in the NT. Does that mean that bestiality is now allowed under the terms of the New Covenant? Of course not. But how can we know? Must we depend upon the Mosaic code alone? No, bestiality in the NT is condemned on two grounds. First in 1 Corinthians 7:2 and Hebrews 13:4, we have explicit prohibitions of all sexual activity outside the marriage union. Even more to the point, the NT condemns porneia. ("sexual immorality"; e.g 1 Cor 6:18), and at this point the interpreter must ask what it is that constitutes porneia. To answer that question we are forced to recognize that for the NT writers porneia is informed by the OT. They had a whole Bible-hermeneutic. and following their lead so must we.
Last edited by bob_2 (10-31-13 5:06 am)
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Bob, you have failed to disprove that the LM is the real PAJ. I am not sure you even tried, other than scoffing, because it is such a new concept.
Regardless, it is impossible to disprove.
The IJ of Dan 8.14 is not the real PAJ as the SDA’s teach. Rev 3.14 is the genuine PAJ of the last church.
This major point needs to be kept in mind before you start with more diversions and double-talk. You should rejoice at this new and improved understanding of Adventist eschatology. But instead, you throw stones. Sad.
Bob 2 said: Tom, no one tenet or many tenets, are part of the Gospel.
Tom said: This sentence makes no sense. It is incoherent and illogical. There must be some way to define what points make up the term “Gospel.” There is. You just don’t know how to do it.
Here is a discussion about how to define the term Gospel. Note that there are 7 basic points.
The Gospel is a powerful doctrine that encompasses a number of points about Jesus, the Jewish Messiah. In fact, it can be defined by seven points that include Jesus' pre-existence, incarnation, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and return. All of these points are part of the definition of the Gospel.
Note that they are about Jesus and his life. They are not about our New Birth, or our life or our struggle with sin. We are not the Gospel, nor are we part of its theological definition. We are only beneficiaries of this grand doctrine about the mercy of God.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -SDA-s.htm
Jesus life, which include his Gospel teachings, are part of the Gospel definition. This includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. This should not be difficult to understand.
Bob 2 said: They may be the fruit of the Gospel, from the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. But you are so hung up on the 4th Commandment, why not the 5th or 6th.
Tom replied: The definition of the Gospel INCLUDES, not excludes, what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.
The “law of Christ” contains what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath.
So there is no avoiding the Sabbath doctrine. It will confront everyone that tries to follow Christ.
Those who misunderstand the NC doctrine of the Sabbath, as taught by Christ, also misunderstand the very Gospel itself. This is why it is so critical to get the NC Sabbath correct.
I repeat: those that fail to embrace the Gospel Sabbath of Christ also fail to embrace the genuine Christ. They have a false Christ, a worthless Gospel, and a fictional view of the Sabbath.
Thus the Sabbath doctrine is a good litmus test to see who is following the genuine Gospel. Very few. Which is why the PAJ of the last church is so damning.
2Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!
Bob 2 said: The NT speaks pretty clearly about the Old Law, 1st Law/Covenant, or the Law of Moses.
Tom replied: Agreed. Jesus does not teach the OC Sabbath law. He teaches a very different NC doctrine of the Sabbath for the church, one that would have meant death to anyone living under the OC.
In fact, when Paul warned the church to stop promoting OC circumcision, it also applied to many other doctrines as well.
Thus we can read this passage today and understand that Paul also means Jewish food laws, as well as tithing, and OC Sabbath keeping like the SDA’s teach. Those who practice such OC errors will be thrown out of the Kingdom of God.
Gal. 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
The SDA’s have “fallen from grace.” They stand “severed from Christ” for all to see.
Today, the Adventist Community must repent for their many OC errors and pivot from their traditional teachings about the 7th day and the Law to the NC Sabbath of Christ.
It is not enough to have the right Day. The Adventists must also embrace the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. This is the genuine Gospel Sabbath and the correct NC Lord’s Day for the Laodicean Church. It is pointless to defend OC Sabbath keeping, where rest is forced by law and work sinful. Those who do so are confused and lost.
Bob 2 said: You have the timing off and don't believe Christ had to keep the Sabbath perfectly and know when the New Covenant began.
Tom replied: This is ludicrous. Jesus is a NC figure, not an OC one. The Gospel starts with the birth of Christ, even as the ministry of Christ was all about promoting the NC Gospel and developing the Church.
To pretend that Christ is not teaching the Gospel, in the Gospels, or that he had to keep the OC law is utter madness.
Christ is above the law, which is why he could break the 4th commandment, as well as other laws, and not be guilty of sin. Of course the Jews disagreed. But we are not to follow the legalistic example of the faithless Jews.
In addition to the many dramatic Sabbath debates where Jesus broke the Moral Law in public with his healings, he also made sure to break other OC laws as well.
Matt. 15:1 Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Matt. 15:2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
Matt. 15:3 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
In this passage, like the ones about the Sabbath, Christ does not deny he is breaking Jewish law. Rather, he accuses the Jews of placing the law above its intent to help people. In this case, aging parents.
This passage also leads to the abolishment of OC Food Laws, even as Jesus is also teaching in other passages the abolishment of the rules contained in the OC Sabbath of the 4th Commandment. Thus Jesus was changing OC Judaism, including the priesthood, and reforming it into a NC paradigm called the church.
Bob 2 asked: How can you deny verses like 1 Cor 9:21, 2 Cor 3:7, Col 2:16,17, and Heb 8:13.
Tom said: This is not about “denying” anything in the NT, but of understanding the Gospel properly.
How can anyone “deny” what Jesus teaches about his reformed and active 7th day Sabbath?
Most all today deny what Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath. The SDA’s are the worst offenders. They actually think they have located the 7th day Sabbath of Christ, when all they have done is embrace the Sabbath doctrine of his enemies. They have the Sabbath of the wicked and unbelieving Pharisees. Not the 7th day NC Sabbath doctrine of Christ.
This is why the PAJ is so harsh to all denominations at the end of time, requiring all Christians to repent and reform. They are all wrong about the Gospel. The many and various confused versions of the Sabbath prove this fact.
Bob 2 said: You have to cling to the splitting of the Mosaic Law into civil, ceremonial and moral to make your interpretation stand.
Tom said: Wrong. The Gospel Sabbath of Christ requires no splitting of the Moral from the Ceremonial law. Why do you think it would?
In Galatians, Law means all Law. Both the Ceremonial and Moral.
Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Judaism was the “tutor” until Christ came with the Gospel. The Church now replaces Judaism, even as faith trumps law keeping, which is abolished as a method to please God.
No Christian today is “under” any OC law. Not the Moral or the Ceremonial. Jesus proves this point with his reformed doctrine of the Sabbath where work is no longer sinful. Thus the correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath is a living testimony that those who follow Christ are not under the Law of Moses, but only the “law of Christ.”
The Gospel Sabbath is a weekly reminder of the freedom we have in Christ from the guilt and penalty of the law. We can work and play on the 7th day, and not be guilty of sin. This is exactly what Jesus teaches over and over in the Gospels. Only a blind person could miss all this.
Of course this is blasphemy to the Jews and the SDA’s. But not to any Christian who is paying attention to Christ. Those who can’t be active on the Sabbath, thinking it wrong and displeasing to God, have not embraced the correct Gospel, nor do they understand the NC teachings of Christ.
Bob 2 said: I already know that your version is you as an army of 1. When you study, Google or whatever, you find that the splitting of the law is not a correct hermeneutic to use. But you will ignore these issues as usual.
Tom said: Bob, Bob, Bob, you are confused. You fail to understand the Gospel or the NC Sabbath correctly, as well as what I am saying.
I am not splitting the Jewish law. All of it; moral, cerimonial, and civil, are abolished as a method to please God and pass the Judgment. So I don’t know what you are talking about and neither do you.
Bob 2 said: If you get one principle or assumption wrong, it effects other doctrines that you believe or accept. If the civil, ceremonial and moral split is allowed, you end of saving one part of the Old Covenant.
Tom said: Bob, why have you created a fictional situation, and then attacked me for it? You are very confused. It is the OC SDA’s that play this game of trying to abolish only the ceremonial law, while keeping the Moral law in place for obedience and salvation. This is what Uriah Smith was all about.
Christ teaches that those who follow him by faith, are exempt from the law of the 4th Commandment. They can do any kind of work or play on the 7th day. This is Gospel truth. What the SDA’s teach is great error and blasphemy.
Bob 2 said: There is a definite split between Old and New Covenants, made very clear in: Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Tom said: I never said otherwise. The OC is obsolete, including the rules about the 4th Commandment, which Christ reformed and changed for all to see. Why you keep ignoring this point is very strange. In order to understand the NC Sabbath correctly, one must pay attention to Christ’s teaching.
Bob 2 said: And the new moral law is named in 1 Cor 9:21 and Gal 6:2; Christ's Law.
Tom said: Agreed. However, the reformed and active 7th day Sabbath is part of “Christ’s law.” This is where you go off the track and refuse to follow either proper hermeneutics or Christ.
I repeat; the law of Christ includes what Jesus teaches about the 7th day. It does not exclude such teaching as you so foolishly claim.
Unless you can learn from Jesus, you are lost, lost, lost. Until you can repent of your false views and only embrace what Christ teaches, you are doomed.
Bob 2 said: Also, take heed of Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
Tom said: You are preaching to the Choir. Why would you think I am promoting the OC Sabbath of Moses? What is the matter with you? I fear this discussion is way over your head.
I advocate Sabbath breaking, just like Christ.
Bob 2 said: At no place in the NT do you see a command from Christ to "keep" the Sabbath.
Tom said: I never said otherwise. Jesus never teaches anyone to obey the 4th commandment. What is the matter with you to talk this way? This is why the Jews became so outraged. Jesus was a premeditated public law breaker, who taught others to also ignore the OC law of the 4th Commandment.
The SDA’s are making fools of themselves for teaching such utter OC Sabbath nonsense. Jesus teaches an active 7th day Sabbath where work is not sinful or wrong. This is the opposite of what the 4th Commandment states. How could the SDA’s have missed this?
Answer: the law blinds them.
2Cor. 3:12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
2Cor. 3:13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
All need to study what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath of liberty. This is Gospel Truth for the church. Anything else is mythical and false.
Bob 2 said: When He calls Himself Lord of the Sabbath, that does not assure that the Sabbath will be eternal or forever, it means, Christ set it up and he can do with it what he pleases.
Tom replied: Ha! What does Jesus teach about the NC Sabbath? That it will be abolished? Hardly. Or that it will now become an Every Day doctrine of peace and rest? Not even close!
I agree that Jesus can teach whatever he wants about the Sabbath. But the real question is this: what DID HE TEACH? This is the question.
It is obvious that the Laodicean church is blind and cannot see the answer. Until they are healed of their blindness, they remain in the dark. Those today that claim to understand the doctrine of the Sabbath, are only proving their blindness for all to see.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but 1since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
Bob 2 said: The Pharisees must have misunderstood the true interpretation of the Sabbath of the Mosaic Law in the following passage, and what God/Jesus allowed and did not allow as "work".
John 5 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Tom replied: The Pharisees were not wrong to think it sinful to work on the 7th day. This is what God and Moses clearly taught. In fact, it was God that told Moses to punish a Sabbath breaker with death for gathering sticks to light a fire. Both activities were very sinful.
Num. 15:32 Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day.
Num. 15:33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation;
Num. 15:34 and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him.
Num. 15:35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.”
Num. 15:36 So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
This idea that the Jews had misunderstood, or overreacted, about the Sabbath is not really true. Both God and Moses had made it clear that Sabbath breaking was a capital crime, as the passage above proves. The “entire congregation” delivered the death penalty. Thus teaching all how serious it was to break the 4th Commandment.
It is utter nonsense to think that Jesus’ view of the Sabbath could somehow confirm to the OC Sabbath. Or that he was trying to fix up the OC and make Judaism more religious or holy. Jesus was a theological genius and he knew what he was doing about the Sabbath; no one should think otherwise.
The Sabbath had very strict rules that came from God himself. Jesus broke those rules and claimed that God told him to do it. Misunderstand what Jesus is doing with the doctrine of the Sabbath and you will misunderstand the Gospel.
The OC Sabbath is very different from the NC version that Christ teaches. The two doctrines oppose each other as one is based on Law and the other on faith in Christ.
Bob 2 said: Tom, I have listened to the product of your hermeneutic but it has not clarified what this means:
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
Tom replied: Jesus abolished OC Judaism. He replaced it with the NC church. When he did this, he also abolished the OC Sabbath and replaced it with the NC version where work is not sinful on the 7th day.
Moreover, while the “old man” would have been a circumcised, OC Jew, the “new man” is both Jew and Gentile, who are now (uncircumcised), spiritual, NC Jews. They are under the NC “law of Christ,” not the OC Law of Moses.
Bob 2 said: 1. For He Himself is our peace -- you have at times stated that you did not see how a man or Jesus could fulfill a day by being our rest and yet this passage says that Jesus is our Peace as Col 2:16-17 states.
Tom replied: Bob, you need to stop making up theology and doctrine whenever it suits you. Your lack of hermeneutical training and discipline prevents you from correctly understanding the NT.
First off, the word “peace” does not mean 24-hour day, much less the 7th day of the Jewish calendar. Why would you think such a strange thing? This is absurd. Nor does the word “rest” mean a 24-hour day.
Second, Jesus never claimed that he was our Sabbath rest, nor did he ever teach such a point. So what is the point of teaching such phony doctrines?
Third, Jesus teaches a lot about the NC Sabbath in the Gospels. Thus, there is no excuse to invent mythical positions when we have the written words of Christ about the 7th day Sabbath?
Why make up this or that view about the Sabbath when we can go directly to Christ in the Gospels and learn from the Lord of the Reformed Sabbath?
Bob, your warped interpretation of this passage is worthless and wrong. Jesus is our peace and salvation 7 days a week. Wonderful. However, this passage does not support the Every Day Sabbath of NCT. Nor does it invalidate what Jesus teaches about his active and reformed NC Sabbath. Sorry.
Bob 2 said: 2. What was the barrier between Jew and Gentile? -- Was it not Circumcision and the Sabbath, unique signs of being a Jew? Was that not the barrier that Jesus destroyed or fulfilled in His Flesh? His main objective, "...., thus making peace."
Tom replied: JUDAISM was the “barrier.” Which includes both the moral and ceremonial laws. Judaism was abolished and updated into the NC church, which would become the new path to the Kingdom of God for the entire world.
Bob 2 posted: the following is from pg 158 New Covenant Theology: So then, how do we understand a given Mosaic command today?
The difficulty is simplified considerably if we opt to accept all Mosaic commands as binding unless the NT specifically tells us otherwise. Alternatively it makes things very easy if we simply rule out every Mosaic command unless it is specifically reissued in the in the NT. But these options are not just simple -- they are simplistic and they overlook our Lord's role as Moses' fulfiller and completer. Perhaps a few examples will help.
First note the Mosaic prohibition of bestiality (Exodus22:19; Lev 16:23; 20;16; Deut 27;21). This command is no where repeated in the NT. Does that mean that bestiality is now allowed under the terms of the New Covenant? Of course not. But how can we know? Must we depend upon the Mosaic code alone? No, bestiality in the NT is condemned on two grounds. First in 1 Corinthians 7:2 and Hebrews 13:4, we have explicit prohibitions of all sexual activity outside the marriage union. Even more to the point, the NT condemns porneia. ("sexual immorality"; e.g 1 Cor 6:18), and at this point the interpreter must ask what it is that constitutes porneia. To answer that question we are forced to recognize that for the NT writers porneia is informed by the OT. They had a whole Bible-hermeneutic. and following their lead so must we.
Tom replied: Jesus, not Moses, is the head theologian of the church. What Christ teaches about the Sabbath, is Gospel doctrine for the church. Period!
Moses does not instruct any Christian about the Gospel, much less make doctrine for the church. There is no way to escape this hermeneutical truth, which exposes NCT as false and very wrong.
What Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath is Gospel Truth for the Church. Reject this Gospel point, and you have also rejected Christ. Everyone needs to understand this theological fact.
It is time for the Adventist Community to repent and properly understand both the Gospel and the 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ.
It is also time to understand that Dan 8.14 is not the PAJ of the last church. Rather, Rev 3.14 fulfills that role. Thus, Christ is calling the last church to repent from their blindness and error so that they can embrace the genuine Gospel of Christ, which includes his active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom said at AllExperts http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -SDA-s.htm
This position of separating the law from the Gospel is the foundation for all Protestant theology. This is what Luther discovered and thus it has correctly been made part of the early Protestant creeds because it was such an important point of theology.
Tom, this is the same position I made in the post before your long epistle, "it's not long and complicated", as you say but go right on to make it so. WOW. And they consider you an Expert or is it an ex - spirt. My point was no part of the obsolete Mosaic Law is part of the Gospel. How can it be by definition and the behavior standards given in the NT. Those are not the Gospel either, but the Fruit of the Gospel produced by the empowering of the Spirit.
Your answer to Jean never introduced her to Christ's Law of the NT , Galatians 6:2 and 1 Cor 9:21.
Tom this passage you attribute to EGW about 1888, does not sound anything like Paul describes the Christian walk, race, or fight.
"People had worn out their souls almost trying to manufacture a sufficient degree of righteousness to stand in the time of trouble, and meet the Savior in peace when he comes. But they had not accomplished it. These were so glad to find out that God had already manufactured a robe of righteousness and offered it as a free gift to everyone that would take it, (a righteousness) that would answer now, and in the time of the plagues, and in the time of the judgment, and to all eternity...They received it gladly just as God gave it and heartily thanked the Lord for it. "
To suggest that overcoming is accepting a garment without the trial of temptations, is not even following Christ's example. Now you and EGW are both suspect in the discription of salvation and the Gospel.
Last edited by bob_2 (11-02-13 5:15 pm)
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Bob, in case you forgot, you accused me of not properly understanding the law, of “splitting” it. Did you forget your own post?
Moreover, you have failed once again to defend the IJ or to disprove Rev 3.14 as the genuine PAJ. Or did you forget about this point as well?
Furthermore, you have also failed to defend NCT with its’ Every Day Sabbath of Rest and Peace, much less to disprove Christ’s NC, 7th day Sabbath, which is your obsession.
This idea of yours that the law of Christ does not include what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is absurd and false. So too this idea that Jesus was an OC figure who was trying to improve OC Judaism.
Don’t pretend we agree, when we do not. We have different views on most every point possible.
I think this discussion is too far over your head. Your many years as a traditional SDA has left you unable to reason or comprehend the issues, much less defend your many false views. Unless you repent of your present confusion and double-talk, you will remain blind to the Gospel, like most all confused and dysfunctional SDA's.
Jesus teaches that Gospel Reform is lost on people like you. Sad.
Matt. 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
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Tom, read my post that was edited before your last. You have no proof that the Sabbath is part of Christ's Law. How you conjure up the Gospel and Christ's Law does not recognize the time of the discontinuity between the Old and the New Covenants and their messages. Christ as Lord of the Sabbath can institute it and can discontinue it. Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and those that did not live at His time. Of holy days the Holy Scripture says:
Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
and
Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
From His Death to His Ascension he had more important things to talk to the Apostles about than a holy day, that is why it is not discussed in the New Covenant, and Christ urges them to return to Jerusalem and their homes until the Holy Spirit shall come and direct them in giving the Gospel to the World. The Spirit directs writers to point out Hebrews 8:13 and the two passages above. Your's is contrived and of your own thinking. You, the army of one.
Last edited by bob_2 (11-02-13 5:35 pm)
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Bob 2 said: Tom, read my post that was edited before your last. You have no proof that the Sabbath is part of Christ's Law.
Tom replied: Wrong. The Gospels are all the proof anyone needs! The definition of the law of Christ, - is the teachings of Christ in the Gospels. They are synonymous terms.
What Jesus teaches in the Gospels, - is NC doctrine for the church. It is the “law of Christ.” Very simple.
Those who follow Christ, will obey his teachings about all things, including what he teaches about Eternal life by Faith and the 7th day Sabbath. They will not ignore what he teaches about anything, much less be ashamed of the NC Sabbath, which was a favorite doctrine of Jesus.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Jesus “words” include what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. They do not exclude what he teaches about the Sabbath. Thus the law of Christ also includes Jesus Sabbath teaching, even as it also includes what he teaches about the PAJ in Revelation. Such eschatology from Christ is also part of the “law” and teachings of Christ. But who is paying attention? Not the SDA’s. Not Bob.
All Christians today should be under the law of Christ, thus they should also embrace the NC Sabbath of Christ, as well as the PAJ of the last church in Rev 3.14. Those that don’t, are proving they are following a different Christ, even a worthless fake.
The SDA’s are actually under the Law of Moses. They have no idea that they should be under the teachings of Christ. They are blind and lost.
The fact that all embrace great error about the Sabbath and the Judgment condemns the church for all to see, proving Christ correct to demand repentance and reformation from a blind and wretched church that has badly misunderstood the Gospel Story.
Bob, your obsession to support NCT and ignore what Christ teaches about the Sabbath is tiresome and very dismissive of the facts. Those that claim to follow Christ cannot spend so much energy running away from, and denying what Jesus teaches in the Gospels.
Sorry to be the one to tell you, but you do not understand, much less follow, the genuine Christ of the NT. You are in a fog.
Bob 2 said: How you conjure up the Gospel and Christ's Law does not recognize the time of the discontinuity between the Old and the New Covenants and their messages.
Tom replied: What Christ teaches about the Sabbath, in the Gospels, is NC doctrine for the church. Period. Such teachings are part of the “law of Christ,” part of the very Gospel by which we are saved.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
As for the Two Covenants and their relationship, we have already discussed this point. You do not properly understand how the law and the Gospel function.
See:
The Continuity versus Discontinuity debate; in Reformed Sabbath Thread; post #208.
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 8886#p8886
Bob 2 said: Christ as Lord of the Sabbath can institute it and can discontinue it.
Tom replied: The question is not about what Jesus “could” have taught about the Sabbath; but what “did,” he teach. There is no need to waste time and speculate. That is just asking for trouble when we can know the answer by reading the Gospels.
Whatever Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the Sabbath, is what the church must follow. Period. And it is not what the SDA’s, or the Sunday keepers, much less the NCT crowd teaches.
Bob 2 said: Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to the Apostles and those that did not live at His time.
Tom said: The HS cannot and does not invent new doctrine. You know this because I have showed you this passage before. So why are you playing games with this worn out nonsense and double-talk? Your attempts to defend false doctrine have fallen flat.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
The Holy Spirit does not teach or support this utter nonsense about an Every Day spiritual Sabbath of rest and peace, much less Sunday or what the SDA’s teach about the 7th day. Anyone who thinks so has lost their mind as well as their soul.
The real Holy Spirit will direct all to the genuine Sabbath of Christ, as well as to the correct doctrine of the PAJ, which is in Rev, not Daniel.
Bob said: Of holy days the Holy Scripture says: Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. And Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge…
Tom replied: Bob, you need to stop with this childish hermeneutic called proof texting. I know the SDA’s taught you this dishonest method whereby certain words in certain passages are used, out of context, to defend false doctrine. But it is a useless method, employed by charlatans and wolves.
Moreover, stop pretending that Paul has more authority than Christ. He does not. The Gospel Sabbath of Christ is a doctrine that comes from Jesus, not from Paul.
Those who follow Christ for Eternal Life must understand and embrace what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. So too Paul. He too must understand and embrace what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. And he does. But few know what they are blindly reading in the NT.
Bob 2 said: From His Death to His Ascension he had more important things to talk to the Apostles about than a holy day,
Tom replied: Bob, you are a fool. I don’t think I have ever met someone who is on such a mission to refute what Christ teaches. You spend much energy running away from Jesus. Strange.
First off, we don’t know that Christ did not talk to his apostles about the Sabbath after his resurrection. The Gospels do not claim to contain all the words of Christ either before or after the cross. So no such assumption can be made. Sorry.
Second, the NT records what Jesus taught to his disciples about the Sabbath in all four Gospels.
So we know what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. No need to ignore, guess, or deny. We have an accurate and detailed record of what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath in the Gospels. Only those who are blind could miss this.
Third, Jesus teaches that the Sabbath was very important to him and God. So much so, that he claimed to be its’ Lord and Protector, even though it sent him to the cross.
For you to marginalize this doctrine, and pretend that Christ had better doctrines to teach is arrogant and absurd, even blasphemous. Who are you to instruct Christ? You are a great fool.
Those who think the Sabbath doctrine is not important and can be ignored or turned into myth, are not following Christ or the Gospel Story. They have lost their minds and their souls. They have no idea what they are saying or why. The Gospel is not comprehended, Eternal Life eludes them.
Bob said: that is why it is not discussed in the New Covenant, and Christ urges them to return to Jerusalem and their homes until the Holy Spirit shall come and direct them in giving the Gospel to the World.
Tom said: The Gospels, which were written with the participation and approval of the Holy Spirit, are full of Jesus Sabbath teachings. The fact there were no Sabbath debates with the Jews after the cross is not to be viewed as an excuse to invalidate the previous three years of debate and Sabbath instruction from Christ. What is the matter with you?
Moreover, the HS did not give any new Sabbath instructions to any of the Apostles as you claim. What Jesus taught about the 7th day, and Jewish Food Laws, and circumcision, etc is what the HS supported after the cross.
Bob 2 said: The Spirit directs writers to point out Hebrews 8:13 and the two passages above. Your's is contrived and of your own thinking. You, the army of one.
Tom said: This idea that the HS gave new Sabbath instruction to the Apostles after the cross is utter nonsense. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, in the Gospels, is NC doctrine for the church. The fact that you don’t understand or like what he teaches is beside the point.
I suggest that you go back to your own section and continue trying to explain and defend NCT, with its ludicrous and impossible view of the Every Day Sabbath.
You need to stop wasting time over here and start posting the actual doctrine of the Sabbath that Wells and Zaspel are promoting. Then everyone will see, if they have not already, that NCT is worthless fiction and garbage. It is hardly the solution for the dysfunctional and confused Advent Movement.
The NC Sabbath of Christ, as well as the (new) doctrine of the PAJ in Rev 3.14 is Present Truth for the last church.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom said:
Tom replied: Wrong. The Gospels are all the proof anyone needs! The definition of the law of Christ, - is the teachings of Christ in the Gospels. They are synonymous terms.
So everything from Acts through Revelation can be ignored by your Reformed Adventist definition of the Law of Christ? At no place in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John does Jesus ever command the Sabbath to be kept. His back and forth with the Rich Young Ruler is a discussion under the Old Covenant, until Jesus dies, there is no sacrifice that forgives eternally but awaits the Cross. If you ignor all commands inspired by the Holy Spirit from Acts to Revelation, you really are in the deep weeds. Are you questioning Paul's commission by Jesus? Christ didn't even say everything that needed to be said before He ascended. This passage in Luke speaks fulfillment which you seem to not want to use, though Jesus does as does Paul's writings. :
Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”[New Covenant outpouring of the Holy Spirit]
and
John 16:2 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
This goes against your statement that all truth is contained in the Gospels and no further revelation as promised by Jesus through the Holy Spirit would happen. What was Acts 15, the Jerusalem council all about?? You seem to dislike Paul and the Apostles for some reason as a vechicle Jesus said he would use, not just Paul but the 11 disciples.
Notice Paul's own commission about further revelation than in the Gospels:
Acts 26:12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
It is not even scholarly to suggest no inspired truth exists in Acts to Revelation. The Gospel is simple, but the fruits of the Spirit were revealed all throughout Acts to Revelation.
As far as the change in the Law, it is declared here:
Heb 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.
Last edited by bob_2 (11-03-13 4:27 pm)
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As a Jew, Christ born under "the law" , the "Mosaic Law", He had to keep that law perfectly. He would not say anything derogatory, except what the Pharisees had polluted or added man made laws that God/Jesus did not intend for the original law, about the Mosaic Law while he was under it. He never gives a command to the Jews to go against the 4th Commandment, but is continually talking about what will be in His Kingdom, New Covenant, but that was future tense, after His blood was shed and could forgive. As far as He being Lord of the Sabbath. What is the ultimate goal of the Sabbath, rest and peace. Note:
Eph 2: 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
What was the barrier between Gentiles and Jews that Jesus brought down. Circumcision and the Sabbath. They were specific marks of belonging to the people of God. To go to the Gentiles with the Gospel both these laws had to be dealt with in order to welcome the Gentiles into Salvation by the Gospel. Circumcision became circumcision of the heart. And the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ himself. "For He Himself is our peace..."
Last edited by bob_2 (11-04-13 12:15 am)
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Tom, you must be a monergist by the answer you gave to Jean on AllExperts.com. Note the definition:
monergism
Monergism describes the position in Christian theology of those who believe that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about effectually the salvation of individuals through spiritual regeneration without cooperation from the individual. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monergism
We can get into word play, but Jesus when he saw the unfruitful fig tree he cursed it and it withered. There is a cooperation in the salvific process, if nothing other than the drowning victim's effort to reach for the thrown life vest. Paul's running the race, fighting the good fight are examples of the cooperation that once the Holy Spirit empowers the believer, fruit is produced. Does the believer have to bear fruit or just put on "a jacket" with no life changes?
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Tom said: The Gospels are all the proof anyone needs (to understand what is contained in the “law of Christ”)! The definition of the law of Christ, - is the teachings of Christ in the Gospels. They are synonymous terms.
Bob 2 replied: So everything from Acts through Revelation can be ignored by your Reformed Adventist definition of the Law of Christ?
Tom said: One cannot “ignore” what Christ teaches about the Sabbath and then run to others for Gospel instruction about the Sabbath. As if Paul or the other apostles are smarter than Christ, or more authoritative. No, no, no. Where did you get this absurd idea?
Why are you so obsessed with ignoring what Christ teaches about the 7th day? You are a very wild and independent minded sheep.
What Jesus teaches, is the highest and most holy of all instruction, - now and forever more. What he teaches about God, man, eternal life, eschatology, and all else, including the Sabbath, is truth for the church. Period. Such Gospel instruction is also called the “law of Christ.”
The “law of Christ” is limited to what Jesus teaches.
All the apostles, as well as all others that follow Christ, have pledged to be under his instruction, and to embrace what he teaches. They are “slaves” to Christ, even as he is the Good Shepherd and we his sheep.
Eph. 6:5-6 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
The four Gospels contain the complete and genuine Gospel of Christ, along with all the necessary teachings to find Eternal Life. The PAJ, in Revelation, is also part of the “law of Christ.”
Let all understand. Jesus words take top priority in the Bible, wherever they are found. His Gospel teachings, as well as his sacrifice, are the sole source of our faith and salvation. Any that ignore or marginalize what he teaches, much less refute what he teaches, will not receive Eternal Life. They are not following the genuine Christ no matter what they claim.
Those who ignore the Gospels, so they can run to Paul and find more suitable doctrine, are only pretending to be Christians. They follow a false Christ.
1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
Bob 2 said: At no place in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John does Jesus ever command the Sabbath to be kept.
Tom replied: First off, Jesus never teaches that anyone should “keep” the OC Sabbath of the Jews. If this is what you meant, then you are correct. (Such a point is stunning to an SDA).
Second, Jesus never abolishes the Sabbath or claims it is being changed to Sunday or to an Every Day doctrine of spiritual rest.
Both the Sunday keepers and the NCT crowd need to find such a passage. But alas, there is no such teaching, proving that their doctrines are false.
Third: Jesus did not embrace or accept OC Sabbath keeping as Present Truth in the 1st century. He refused to obey the OC Sabbath, and taught others not to obey the 4th Commandment. Which means what the SDA’s teach as Sabbath truth, is Sabbath error. They do not have the correct doctrine as they boast.
Fourth. Jesus teaches, and then acts out, a very different, NC version of the 7th day Sabbath for his Gospel believers to follow. Only a blind person could miss the many Sabbath debates that Jesus had with the Jews.
The Reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ is featured in all four Gospels. Repeated over and over by Christ, making it impossible to miss. But yet, the blind church has been unable to see the Gospel Sabbath or Christ clearly or correctly.
The SDA’s do not teach the correct doctrine of the Sabbath, for which they must hang their head in shame and repent.
Fifth: The true 7th day Sabbath of Christ is contained in the Gospels, and supported by the rest of the NT, including Revelation, which was written on the 7th day by the command of Christ.
Such activity would be sinful if the OC Sabbath were still valid. But such activity (work) was now allowed on the NC Sabbath, aka, the Lord’s Day. John broke the OC law of the 4th Commandment as directed by Christ. He embraced the active, NC Sabbath of Christ, aka the Lord’s Day.
The book of Revelation is evidence for the reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ. Who knew? Not the SDA’s. They have the wrong PAJ and the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath. And that is just for starters…
Bob 2 said: His back and forth with the Rich Young Ruler is a discussion under the Old Covenant, until Jesus dies, there is no sacrifice that forgives eternally but awaits the Cross.
Tom said: You do not understand how to read the scriptures or understand the Gospel Story. Jesus teachings are NC in nature. He is not to be viewed as an OC figure. John the Baptist represents the OC in the Gospel Story, but not Jesus Christ. He represents the NC. How can you not know this?
Bob, you need to stop searching for excuses to ignore what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. There is no excuse.
Jesus is not just speaking to the Jews in the Gospels, but to all those that follow him for Eternal Life. This idea you can run to some statement from Paul and ignore Christ is ludicrous. This is twisted thinking of which you need to repent.
Bob 2 said: If you ignore all commands inspired by the Holy Spirit from Acts to Revelation, you really are in the deep weeds.
Tom said: The point of the HS is to help people remember and understand the words and teachings of Christ, which include what he teaches about the 7th day. The HS has no authority to invent new doctrine, nor has this ever happened. Stop trying to find ways to avoid what Christ teaches about the NC Sabbath. Sheep do not question their Shepherd. They follow.
Bob 2 said: Are you questioning Paul's commission by Jesus?
Tom said: I am questioning your sanity and telling you that you don’t understand the Gospel, nor are you even close to doing so. I have never met someone who works so hard to refute what Christ teaches. It is amazing and sad.
Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath, nor is he the head theologian of the church, much less its’ savior. Nor is Paul the proper source to understand the Sabbath teachings of Christ.
Those who want to run to Paul, rather then Christ, because they think he is saying what they want to hear, have fallen from grace. They are not being honest with themselves or Christ, much less Paul. They stand outside the Kingdom of God.
Bob 2 said: Christ didn't even say everything that needed to be said before He ascended.
Tom replied: First off, who are you to instruct Christ and find fault with Jesus? Have you lost your mind? You need to stop making such outrageously false and foolish statements.
Second. The NT teaches that the Gospel was fully taught and explained by Christ to his disciples.
Listen to Jesus’ claim to God that he faithfully gave the “words” of God to the apostles. He did not hold back as you claim.
John 17:7 “Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
John 17:8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
John 17:14 “I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Jesus claims to have completed his Gospel mission, which means he fully articulated the Gospel for the church. I believe Christ, not your silly spin.
John 17:4 “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
This also means there is no new Sabbath doctrine given to the church through Paul or anyone else. What Christ taught about the Sabbath, in the Gospels, is truth for the church directly from God. Any that claim there are new doctrines after the cross, are acting like the Gnostics. They were famous for claiming that new, secret Gospel truths were given after the resurrection.
Moreover, these new truths contradicted what had already been written in the Gospels about Christ, which is why the early church excluded them from the Cannon. They were false documents, with a false Gospel.
So this trick is not going to work. If you want to understand the NC Sabbath, you must go to the Gospels and learn from Christ. Those that fail to understand and follow Christ on this point, are doomed. They do not understand nor believe in the Gospel. They will not receive Eternal Life.
Bob 2 said: This passage in Luke speaks about fulfillment which you seem to not want to use, though Jesus does, as does Paul's writings.
Tom replied: These passages are not about Jesus “fulfilling” the Sabbath. They are about the OT prophecies that pointed to the Suffering Messiah. There are no such prophecies about the Messiah “fulfilling” the Sabbath. This is the problem with this absurd Every Day Sabbath theory. It is based on fiction.
We have discussed this many times. Why do you keep pretending your lame excuses are true when they have been disproven over and over?
Bob 2 posted: John 16:2 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Bob 2 then said: This goes against your statement that all truth is contained in the Gospels and no further revelation as promised by Jesus through the Holy Spirit would happen.
Tom replied: Jesus represents the most full and complete revelation of God known to man. He was faithful to explain the will of God, offering Eternal Life to all through the Gospel. Jesus didn’t hold anything back; much less change any Gospel doctrine after the resurrection.
John 15:15 “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
John 8:26 “I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”
John 8:27 They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.
John 8:28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
John 8:29 “And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.”
Jesus gave the Gospel of God to the world, just as his Father taught him to do. “All” that he heard from God, was “made known” to the apostles and written down in the Gospels for our salvation.
John 17:4 “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
Jesus teaches the HS “will not speak on his own” because it can only promote what Christ has taught. Thus “he will speak only what he hears,” even as he will inform the church about the future. This is a reference to prophecy, and the book of Revelation that would be given to the church. Thus the HS “will tell you what is yet to come.”
Jesus does not teach that a new Gospel would be developed after the resurrection. Or that any new doctrines would be articulated for the church through the HS. The Sabbath that Christ teaches in the Gospels is the correct doctrine for the Church. Period.
Bob 2 said: What was Acts 15, the Jerusalem council all about??
Tom said: The church was holding an important meeting to debate the law and the Gospel. No new doctrine was added to the Gospel at this meeting, even as some dubious teachings were put forward by James, one of the leaders in the false Gospel movement that swept through the early church.
There was no abolishment of the Sabbath at this conference, much less any suggestion to change the 7th day into an Every Day spiritual experience as you advocate.
Bob 2 said: You seem to dislike Paul and the Apostles for some reason as a vehicle Jesus said he would use, not just Paul but the 11 disciples.
Tom said: I dislike those who try and replace the teachings of Christ with false doctrine. (Which means you, not Paul). Jesus is higher than Paul, and so too are his words and teaching. In fact, Paul was a great critic of the early church. He hated Jesus and his Gospel, until he literally saw the light. None of this elevates Paul above Christ, who alone gives out Eternal Life.
All must understand Jesus, before they can benefit from Paul. Paul works for Christ, and is totally subservient to him. Only Christ can save. Paul has no such power, nor did he ever make such a claim. There is only one Gospel, and it is the Gospel of Christ, not the Gospel of Paul. If you hear such a term, it means the Gospel of Christ.
2Tim. 2:8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,
Bob 2 said: Notice Paul's own commission about further revelation than in the Gospels:
Tom said: Forget trying to promote this absurd idea that the resurrected Christ gave Paul an abolished Sabbath for the Church. It never happened. Just say “no” to Gospel Fiction, myth, and gossip.
If you want to understand the NC Sabbath, you must go to the Lord of the Sabbath and the Creator of the world, and of the 7th day Sabbath doctrine, and let him teach you.
Bob 2 said: It is not even scholarly to suggest no inspired truth exists in Acts to Revelation.
Tom said: I never said such nonsense. In fact, the PAJ is found in Revelation. This inspired doctrine is part of the law of Christ, because this is what Jesus is clearly teaching in Rev 2 and 3. Christ is the Judge of the Church, (not Daniel), so no wonder we see Jesus judging the 7 churches in the genuine PAJ in Revelation.
Bob 2 said: The Gospel is simple, but the fruits of the Spirit were revealed all throughout Acts to Revelation.
Tom said: You are being incoherent. Why not admit that NCT is wrong and repent? Then you can focus on comprehending the genuine NC Sabbath, which is a new doctrine for the blind and confused church to ponder and embrace.
Bob 2 said: As far as the change in the Law, it is declared here: Heb 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.
Bob then said: As a Jew, Christ born under "the law", the "Mosaic Law", He had to keep that law perfectly.
Tom said: We have gone over this at least 100 times. Jesus did not have to obey the OC laws, nor did he. He broke the OC law by the way he was born, and by many things he did, including Sabbath breaking, preaching the Gospel, and dying on a cross.
Gal. 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE” —
Jesus was not a pretend lawbreaker, but a very real one. He broke the OC laws on a regular basis, even as he became a super lawbreaker and sinner for us.
Jesus came to promote the NC, which means he had to break and destroy the OC. He did this in spiritually and theologically, even as the Romans did it in fact, with brutal force and destruction. OC Judaism was destroyed in AD 70, never to rise again.
Bob 2 said: He would not say anything derogatory about the Mosaic Law while he was under it.
Tom said: You do not understand the Gospel Story. Jesus attacked, cursed, and destroyed OC Judaism. Jesus changed the Jewish rules of religion from an OC, law based paradigm, to a NC one that was based on faith in his teachings and death.
He treated the OC as if was beneath him, because it was. Which is why he claimed to be greater than Abraham and King Solomon, even greater than the Temple and Judaism itself.
As part of the NC, Jesus also promoted a changed Priesthood and a new doctrine of the Sabbath and the Passover. He even overturned the Temple furniture in public to make the point that he was going to overturn the entire OC system of Judaism.
Such behavior was clearly unlawful and against the OC system of Moses, which he was forced to attack and discredit. This is why he was put to death. He was a great lawbreaker and troublemaker for those in control of religion.
Let all understand: Jesus spurned and cursed OC Judaism. He knew it was only temporary and that it had gone corrupt. He knew it had to be updated, reformed, and replaced.
The Gospels show that Christ took a very confrontational and negative attitude against the Jews because they fought the Gospel. Look at this example and understand the Jesus was not pulling his punches. The Jews took great offense at his derogatory remarks about them.
Luke 4:25 “But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land;
Luke 4:26 and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.
Luke 4:27 “And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.”
Luke 4:28 And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things;
Luke 4:29 and they got up and drove Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff.
Jesus could rile up a crowd; he could cause a riot on cue, because he knew how to push the buttons of the Jews. And he did so on a number of occasions.
Christ was a great troublemaker who did not have nice things to say about the Jews. No one in his day would ever think he was trying to obey the OC, much less support it. He was a great rebel against the OC. Which is why the OC leaders sent him to the cross. They hated the NC.
Bob 2 said: He never gives a command to the Jews to go against the 4th Commandment, but is continually talking about what will be in His Kingdom, New Covenant, but that was future tense, after His blood was shed and could forgive. As far as He being Lord of the Sabbath.
Tom said: Wrong. Jesus teaches that all who follow him for Eternal Life must embrace his reformed, working, view of the Sabbath, or be lost. This is what the Sabbath Debates were all about. And so too the metaphor about Jesus being the Good Shepherd and we, the obedient sheep. You obviously missed this part of the Gospel Story.
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
This teaching from Christ about following him as the Good Shepherd, is about his reformed, NC Sabbath that the Jews were repudiating. Jesus promoted a very different version of the 7th day Sabbath. All that follow him must embrace and follow his teachings like obedient sheep.
John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
Jesus was constantly at war with the Jews over the Sabbath, even as Christ specifically teaches that the 4th Commandment is no longer valid for his followers.
Matt. 12:5 “Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
Matt. 12:6 “But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
While the Jews embraced the OC, non-working 7th day Sabbath, under pain of death; Jesus REFORMED this doctrine into an active and free day for the NC church where there was no guilt or sin associated with this day.
This strange new Sabbath position caused great uproar and division from the very beginning of Jesus’ ministry. And so it will be today. The Gospel Sabbath is a radical, paradigm changing, doctrine that causes great division and debate.
John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
So Bob, you need to stop pretending Jesus is an OC figure and pay attention to his NC Gospel teaching, which includes his active, NC Lord’s Day.
The true sheep are those who follow the true shepherd. Jesus teaches that the true Shepherd can be identified as the one having the active, Gospel Sabbath, where freedom from the law is featured every 7th day.
John 8:36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Bob 2 asked: What is the ultimate goal of the Sabbath, rest and peace.
Tom said: First off, the Sabbath has no goal in the sense it has a completion or end point. There is no end of the weekly Sabbath so long as the Earth is still spinning. Every 7th day is a Sabbath day for planet Earth. Period. Forever and ever.
There is no such fulfillment contemplated or articulated anywhere in Judaism, much less in the NC. The weekly Sabbath has been built into the weekly cycle of the Earth by the word of the Creator. It is part of the Creation story, and also part of the Gospel Story.
The first Sabbath completed the 7-day Creation cycle and thus set a perpetual precedent in motion that stands to this very day in the calendar.
The weekly Sabbath was designed by the Jewish God as a weekly day to remember the Creator, - who really did not need any rest. Neither did Adam or Eve. They were brand new, even perfect, needing no rest.
So this first Sabbath was not the OC Sabbath of Moses where work was forbidden and rest necessary. It was no doubt a very active day of exploration and discovery. Neither sin nor the OC existed at this time, much less any rules against work on the 7th day of the week, which for Adam and Eve was their 1st day of life.
The OC Sabbath, which came much later, was directed to hardened slaves who had just escaped from Egypt. Its temporary purpose was to remind the Jews about the true God and keep them in line until the NC arrived.
In the NC, the 7th day still fulfills the basic function to identify the Creator of the world. But instead of forced rest, it is full of activity, innocence, and freedom, as well as Gospel worship and praise.
Many today embrace the OC Sabbath, thinking it is NC doctrine. This is not only wrong; it proves that the Gospel is not understood. A false view of the Sabbath is a sure sign of a false view of the Gospel.
Bob 2 asked: What was the barrier between Gentiles and Jews that Jesus brought down. Circumcision and the Sabbath. They were specific marks of belonging to the people of God.
Tom said: The barrier was Judaism, which includes legions of rules, laws, and regulations. Judaism is replaced by the Church, which also has its own laws, (law of Christ), and ceremonies, including the NC version of the Sabbath, as taught by Christ.
What an embarrassing pity that the SDA’s failed to figure this out. They claim to be the Sabbath experts, but they have misunderstood the Gospel Sabbath, and rejected Christ.
Bob 2 said: To go to the Gentiles with the Gospel both these laws had to be dealt with in order to welcome the Gentiles into Salvation by the Gospel. Circumcision became circumcision of the heart. And the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ himself. "For He Himself is our peace..."
Tom said: Nice try, but it won’t work. You are not being honest with the Gospel Record.
1). Circumcision, which was the “gateway” doctrine into Judaism, became Baptism in the church. This was the new “gateway” doctrine for the NC.
2) The Passover, with real wine, became the Eucharist, and
3) The OC non-working Sabbath of the 4th Commandment was CHANGED by CHRIST to become an active day of Gospel fellowship, Freedom, and innocence. Christ teaches that the 4th Commandment law against work, fire, travel, etc is no longer valid in the NC.
4) There is no truth to this myth that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath any more then he changed this doctrine to Sunday or Every Day.
While Jesus is our peace, 24/7, this is only so if we embrace his Gospel words and believe them. This includes what he teaches about the NC Sabbath.
Those who reject this Gospel doctrine, also reject Christ. This is what the Jews did. Are you sure you want to follow their wretched and fatal example?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Bob, this thread is about the PAJ, not the Reformed Sabbath. Your posts have been moved to the proper thread.
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Subject: Re confessed sins
Question:
Dear Mr. Norris
I have a couple of questions to ask you about the Investigative Judgment.
"As the sins of the people were anciently transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary by the blood of the sin offering, so our sins are, in fact, transferred to the heavenly sanctuary by the blood of Christ."
"And as the typical cleansing of the earthly was accomplished by the removal of the sins by which it had been polluted, so the actual cleansing of the heavenly is to be accomplished by the removal, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. This necessitates an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement."
Ellen G White, The Faith I Live By page 206
Does the words "in fact" in the above passage refer to the transfer of real (actual sins) into the heavenly sanctuary?
If confessed sins are only figuratively transferred to the heavenly sanctuary, then the heavenly sanctuary is not literally defiled and Christ is only figuratively cleansing it (i.e. pretending to cleanse it) and finally He will figuratively place those figuratively-transferred sins figuratively upon Satan's head.
In other words, no actual confessed sins are placed upon Satan's head at the conclusion of the Investigative Judgment.
If such is the case, then what has happened or will happen to your actual confessed sins? (To use a food analogy, the record of confessed sins is a photo of rotten eggs and the actual confessed sins are rotten eggs).
Thank you very much.
Andy
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Tom Norris answers:
The IJ Is False
The SDA Pioneers were sincere, but very uneducated and wrong about many things. They did the best they could with the primitive resources and knowledge available to them in the 19th century. No one should expect them not to make some mistakes and errors that must be corrected by later generations.
While the SDA’s did get some doctrines right, the development of the Investigative Judgment was not one of them. It was a great mistake. This misunderstood prophetic teaching about the Judgment is legalistic and full of error. It competes with the doctrine of the 2nd Coming and the Gospel, as well as the fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages.
Let everyone understand: there is no such doctrine anywhere in the Bible, much less in the teachings of Christ or Historic Adventism.
In other words, the IJ, which is based on both Old Testament prophetic passages in Daniel and Levitical word associations from the Torah, is not of faith. The IJ is not a valid New Covenant doctrine. It is futile and fruitless speculation, and thus no amount of tinkering, adjustment, or revision can ever make it credible or true. The IJ is “strange doctrine,” unknown to Jesus and the apostles.
1Tim. 1:3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines,
1Tim. 1:4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.
1Tim. 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1Tim. 1:6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
1Tim. 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
The SDA’s have made wretched fools of themselves by promoting the IJ all these years. Moreover, the changes and so called improvements that have been made to this awful doctrine in the late 20th century have only made matters worse, as did the fraudulent trial of Dr. Desmond Ford in 1980 at Glacier View. Today, it is clear that the doctrine of the IJ could not be more false, mythical, and wrong. There is zero truth to this amateur, naïve eschatology that has been proven impossible and very wrong by the leading SDA scholars, as well as all others.
See:
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
Investigative Judgment
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ment-1.htm
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtop … 372#p11372
Dr. Ford Interview
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm
The Genuine Pre Advent Judgment (PAJ)
The repudiation of the IJ does not mean there is no Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church, --there is. But it is not located in the OT book of Daniel. Why? Because the OT does not correct or judge the NT Church. Daniel, an OC prophet, has no authority over the church.
Only Jesus can judge the church. So if there is going to be a PAJ, Christ must be involved as he is the judge of the church.
John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
So what is the real PAJ?
Let everyone in the Adventist Community understand that the genuine Pre- Advent Judgment of the last church is found in Rev 3: 14. Not Dan 8: 14.
The SDA’s need to repudiate their many Old Covenant errors and views and study the NT to find the genuine PAJ. They must repent of the IJ, fully embracing the teachings of Christ in all things, including what Jesus teaches about the Pre-Advent Judgment of the church.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
All SDA’s, must repudiate the IJ as false doctrine and error and move forward to embrace the true PAJ, which is found in Rev 3: 14.
Confessed Sins
As for this IJ based idea that confessed sins are transported into heaven by Jesus blood; this is absurd and “strange” on many levels. It is great error, myth, and blasphemy promoted by those that do not understand the Gospel.
1Tim. 1:3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines,
First, the Bible does not teach that sin resides in blood, much less that sins are transferred into heaven because of Jesus blood. Such a view makes Christ an agent of sin, even as it defiles him and all heaven.
So this foolish teaching falls apart on this point alone, even as there are many other points that also make no biblical sense.
2Tim. 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Confessed sins are not transferred to Jesus blood, nor are they taken to heaven in any form for later examination. Such a legalistic Celestial Judgment, supposedly taking place in a galaxy far, far, away is cultic fantasy not supported by the Gospel.
Blood Does Not Equal Sin
The SDA’s are too found of the Old Covenant. They have wasted their time looking at the smallest details in the Torah for them to mix with the New Covenant. But their many assumptions have fallen flat. They understand neither the Old Covenant nor the New, which is why they have such “strange” doctrines like the IJ.
First off, blood in the OT equates to LIFE. Not sins. It also represents Salvation, not wrath from Judgment.
Second, blood in the NT equates to the Gospel teachings of Christ. Not to sin. Jesus teaches his blood represents Eternal Life, not sin. Thus the SDA’s are very, very, confused about the details of the Gospel and it shows. (No wonder the SDA's refuse to drink wine at the Lord's Supper, they are confused about the symbolism for blood in the Gospel. They think blood equals sin when the opposite is the case.)
Gen. 9:4 “Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
Ex. 12:13 ‘The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.
John 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
John 6:56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
1Cor. 10:16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?
1Cor. 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
Jesus “spotless” blood represents righteousness, perfection, healing, and peace; it is not a conduit for sin, nor is there any sin in his blood, metaphorically or literally, to be transported to heaven as the confused SDA’s teach. The saints are saved and cleansed by Jesus righteous blood, which contains no sin.
1Pet. 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
1Pet. 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
1Pet. 2:24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
1John 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Rev. 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood —
Col. 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Where does the Bible teach that Jesus blood is full of sin? And that these sins enter heaven because of Jesus blood?
Contrary to the SDA doctrine of the IJ, there is no sin in Christ’s blood to “defile” him, much less to transport into heaven! The cross destroyed sin; which is very different from claiming that sins are transferred into Jesus blood, becoming a part of him, so he could take sin into heaven to perform a judgment of works. Such doctrines are worthless drivel. Shame on the SDA’s for being so cultic and wrong about so much. They are great blasphemers for all to see.
Rom. 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom. 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
Rom. 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom. 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Heb. 7:26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
Heb. 7:27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
Christ died to sin on the cross and destroyed sin then and there. He did not become infused with the sins of the world so as to take them to heaven for future study and judgment out in deep space. The IJ is cultic madness and great blasphemy. We are “justified,” “blessed,” and “saved” by his Jesus blood, even as Christ “releases” the believer from their sins, “by his blood.” How could this take place if Jesus blood is full of sin?
Just stop and think: if Jesus blood contains sin, how can anyone be saved by sinful blood? How does that work?
Christ does not have sinful blood, nor did he take any sins to heaven in his blood as the confused SDA’s teach. They must repent of these dangerous myths and fabrications before they become totally blind, unable to understand the Word or the Gospel.
Rev. 1:5 from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood —
1Cor. 10:16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread, which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?
1Cor. 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
Eph. 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Jesus has holy and righteous blood. It is not full of sin. Nor did Christ take any sins with him to heaven, as the SDA teach. There is no special judgment in heaven of the saints, much less one that examines their works, starting in 1844.
Let all understand: the doctrine of the IJ repudiates the blood of Christ, even as it fails to qualify as the Pre- Advent Judgment of the church, which is found in Revelation. The doctrine of the IJ is nothing more than absurd and (once) innocent 19th century error that has been refuted by one SDA scholar after another, not to mention every non-SDA scholar in the world.
The doctrine of the IJ is impossible and very wrong. It is anti-Gospel theology that cannot be defended in the 21st century. It has zero support from the Bible, much less from the teachings of Christ. It is great sin to embrace such doctrinal fraud.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
In fact, here is a discussion with a modern IJ expert. He quickly ran away in defeat because he could not defend this absurd doctrine that has ruined the modern Advent Movement. Let everyone see how easy it is to refute the IJ.
IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173
No scholar or apologist dares come online with Tom Norris or Dr. ford to debate the validity of the IJ. Clifford Goldstein understands this fact and thus he still refuses such a debate because he knows he can’t prevail. Herb Kersten had to learn what Goldstein already knew; that no one, no matter how well educated or motivated, can defend the IJ. The IJ is one of the worst doctrines in the world. If anyone thinks otherwise I would welcome a public discussion to further prove the point.
Where Do Confessed Sins Go?
If sins are not sent into heaven via Jesus blood, as the SDA’s teach, then where do they go? What does the Bible say? When God forgives sin, in the name of Christ, those sins cease to exist. They are “wiped away,” thrown into the “depths of the sea.” They are not “taken into account,” much less moved into heaven and stored for future analysis and judgment.
Rom. 4:7 “BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
Rom. 4:8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”
Mic. 7:19 He will again have compassion on us;
He will tread our iniquities under foot.
Yes, You will cast all their sins
Into the depths of the sea.
Acts 3:19 “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
In addition, when a person embraces the Gospel, (their names, not their sins), are written in the Book of Life.
Phil. 4:3 Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.
Rev. 3:5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
The doctrine of the IJ teaches that our sins are transferred and stored in heaven. To be examined to see who is safe to save. Thus the sinner never has true forgiveness, only conditional salvation until such time as their personal record and character are examined for sin. Such teaching is not from the Gospel. The Bible knows nothing about any Judgment of the saints, starting in 1844. The IJ is false doctrine. Period!
Consequences of the IJ
No other church or denomination embraces, or has ever embraced, the doctrine of the IJ. It is an SDA exclusive, original only to them. It is also the reason why so many leave this disoriented Denomination, and why Adventism can no longer grow. The legalistic SDA’s have confused themselves about the Gospel by thinking Jesus blood contains the sins of billions of people. This is such an unbiblical, anti-Gospel concept that it boggles the mind. But such is the way of legalists. The SDA’s are Old Covenant Christians. Consequently, their view of Jesus and his blood is very twisted and wrong.
Unless the SDA’s repent of this awful doctrine, which they claim is the “Pre-Advent Judgment” of the church, and repudiate what took place at Glacier View in 1980, they are doomed. They will continue to self-destruct because they teach blasphemy and legalism, not Gospel eschatology as they pretend.
Jesus blood is righteous, not sinful. It is “spotless,” cleansing, and holy. It does not, not, not, represent sin. It equates with Redemption and the forgiveness of sin.
Eph. 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
1Pet. 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
1John 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
How ironic that the genuine Pre Advent Judgment, which is the Laodicean Message of Rev 3: 14, calls for repentance and Gospel Reform. But the SDA’s have no plans to repent for anything. They would rather embrace a false, legalistic version of the PAJ than the genuine doctrine, which condemns their wretched errors and demands repentance. Thus, like the Jews, they are blind and deaf (on purpose) to the genuine teachings of Christ.
Here are a number of points that easily expose the IJ as false doctrine. These points stand alone, with each one being enough to fully repudiate the IJ. When they are added together, the IJ is condemned 7 x’s over.
**7 Irrefutable Points Prove IJ FALSE**
1. Jesus does not support the SDA interpretation of Dan 8:14; He embraces another view of this passage, which all that follow Christ must also embrace.
2. The Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church cannot be in the OT or the book of Daniel. If the PAJ exists at all, which it does, it must be found in the NT. Only the NT can define Gospel doctrine for the church, not the OT.
3. The PAJ of the last church is found in Rev 3: 14. It is not found in the OT book of Daniel as the SDA’s claim. Here is the true doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment, which applies to every church and denomination today, including the SDA’s!
4. Neither the OT nor the NT supports a secret “Celestial Judgment” way out in deep space to examine the believer’s sanctification. There is no such private and special Judgment in the Bible. The IJ is a great error, and no amount of double-talk from the SDA’s can change the theological or historical facts.
5. No serious scholars or historians support the IJ, nor has any church or denomination ever embraced this teaching, except for the SDA’s, and most of them now repudiate it, including their best scholars, like Dr. Ford and the late Raymond Cottrell. The SDA’s are being very dishonest to pretend otherwise.
6. While Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism defines the IJ as a fundamental “pillar” of the Advent Movement, anchored in Rev 14: 7. This was never true. Not one Pioneer, including Ellen White or Uriah Smith ever made such a claim. In fact, there is no such “pillar” in any of the Three Angels Messages, nor is this doctrine the reason why Adventists exist, as many have been indoctrinated.
The doctrine of the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment is the reason why the Advent Movement came into existence. Rev 14: 7 was only interpreted (correctly) as the Judgment of the 2nd Coming. The later developing IJ, (1857) had zero to do with the doctrinal development of any the Three Angels Messages, which pillars had already been erected by 1847.
7. The doctrine of the IJ is associated with long list of additional false, legalistic doctrines from the SDA’s, such as tithing, OC Sabbath keeping, Jewish food laws and perfectionism, just to name a few. It is not a stand-alone error, but a cluster of error that must be repudiated.
The IJ repudiates the Gospel and marginalizes the 2nd Coming, which is the real Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message. It refutes the Gospel and the Foundational pillars of Historic Adventism, which means it, must be disowned by anyone who wants to embrace the original and genuine version of the Three Angels Messages and the real PAJ.
Today, the Advent Movement is dying because of the false doctrine of the IJ. Millions of members have left because they do not believe in this absurd, anti-Gospel eschatology that makes no biblical sense whatsoever. It is time for the legalistic IJ to be removed from the Adventist Community. It is a great evil that only brings debate and schism.
Conclusion:
While the SDA’s were correct to understand that there is a Pre-Advent Judgment of the church prior to the 2nd Coming, they failed to find it because they were looking in the Old Testament instead of the New. Unless they can repent and embrace the genuine PAJ in Rev 3: 14, as directed by Christ, they will continue to self-destruct for all to see.
Only Jesus can judge the Laodicean church prior to the 2nd Coming, (which is the great Judgment Day of the world). And he has clearly done this in Rev 3: 14, which is also known as the Laodicean Message.
The SDA’s need to repent for thinking Daniel 8: 14 is the PAJ and return to the serious search for Gospel Truth in the New Testament. The IJ is false and foolish doctrine for the blind.
I hope this answers your question.
Tom Norris for All Experts & Adventist Reform
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Tom you said: "The SDA’s need to repent for thinking Daniel 8: 14 is the PAJ and return to the serious search for Gospel Truth in the New Testament. The IJ is false and foolish doctrine for the blind. "
So how do you understand these verses?
2Co_5:10; 1Pe_4:17; Rev 20:12
"The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. . . . When the investigative judgment closes, Christ will come, and His reward will be with Him to give to every man as his work shall be." EGW
Ellen White claimed to have had these things revealed to her by God. Was she just blind and foolish? Are these just doctrines of devils or was she just lying or is she in fact in harmony with the Bible texts above?
John,
____________________________________________________________________________________
Tom Norris answered:
Today, the Adventist Community is very disoriented and divided; millions have left and more leave all the time. In spite of amassing a large membership and great wealth, ($35 billion) their teachings are no longer considered correct or sustainable. Their incoherent doctrines only lead to endless confusion and debate, not Gospel insight and truth.
Although many in all denominations are interested in how the world will end, the SDA’s have nothing worthwhile to say. They have lost their once cutting edge understanding of prophecy, replacing the historic and genuine formulation of the Three Angels Messages with a fabricated and false version that features the IJ/ PAJ.
The modern Adventists don’t even correctly understand their own brief history, much less the fundamental teachings of co-founder Ellen White, nor do they care about such facts. They have become a typically stale and corrupt religion; focused on money and mind control, not truth. All of which explains why they are self-destructing in a great crisis of self-identity almost 40 years after Glacier View.
The only way out of this ongoing crisis is for the Adventists to become honest about their history and return to the primary fundamentals of the original Three Angels Messages. They must embrace what made them famous and functional, and move forward in their understanding of Gospel prophecy.
Moreover, Adventists must stop being so arrogant, thinking they have all possible truth. This is obviously not true. This fragmented group must return to the proper attitude of searching for truth as opposed to defending worthless traditions that they claim is truth. Tradition is rarely truth, and the SDA’s are full of much false tradition and anti-Gospel doctrine.
Ellen White Does Not Write Scripture”
As for Ellen White, she does not write scripture, or anything close to it. Thus one should never refer to her writings as if there were like verses of scripture, which is what you did in your question.
You wrote: “So how do you understand these verses?
2Co_5:10; 1Pe_4:17; Rev 20:12.”
Then you quoted Ellen White, as if she too writes verses of scripture. “The work of the investigative judgment…”
This is a great mistake, one that has ruined the Advent Movement. Ellen White has no doctrinal authority, and she never said otherwise. Moreover, much of what she teaches has not been honestly communicated to the SDA community.
Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
While Ellen White did have some genuine “spiritual gifts,” she never claimed to have doctrinal authority, much less that her writings were sacred, on the same level as the Bible. Nor did she ever believe in the IJ/PAJ as the Takoma Park apologists promoted.
Is Ellen White a true or false Prophet
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-true.htm
Until the SDA’s stop embracing so much historical fraud and theological error, and start honestly dealing with the issues, the dysfunctional Advent Movement will continue to self-destruct. Their present doctrines are not credible, true, or sustainable, and neither is the Advent Movement until there is genuine Gospel Reform and a return to the original theology of the Three Angels Messages.
So your question assumes many things that are not historically accurate or theologically valid. The fact that errors and myths have been taught and published by Adventists for generations does not make any of them true. It only makes Gospel Reform more difficult for SDA’s to understand. Regardless, it is past time for an honest discussion about the doctrine of the IJ/PAJ and the Three Angels Messages.
IJ Texts?
First, let’s address the supposed IJ texts you listed, starting with Rev 14:7, which is the key NT text that SDA’s claim contains the IJ. I am surprised you failed to ask about this most famous passage, which is very misunderstood by modern Adventists.
Rev. 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
This famous passage, also known as the 1st Angels Message, is foundational for all Adventist eschatology. It became the hallmark passage for the Millerites, the reason why they existed.
Miller correctly taught that this prophetic passage was only about the 2nd Coming and the end of the world. Thus the term “hour of his judgment has come” was exclusively viewed by all early Adventists as meaning ONLY the 2nd Coming.
The terms “Adventist” or “Adventism” are references to the 2nd Coming, having nothing to do with the IJ/PAJ whatsoever, which doctrine and concept had not been invented as yet.
Let everyone understand: There was no doctrine of the IJ when the Advent Movement started. It was added later, in 1857, as an appendage to the 3rd Angels Message. There was no IJ in the 1st or 2nd Messages, as the White Estate and the Review have taught for generations.
I repeat, All 19th century Adventists, including William Miller, Joseph Bates, James and Ellen White, Uriah Smith, Andrews, etc, unanimously viewed Rev 14: 7 as only a reference to the 2nd Coming. Never to the IJ. There are no exceptions. It was a unanimous point that has not been honestly explained to the modern Adventist.
What was once so critical and fundamental to SDA eschatology in the 19th century has become marginalized, mythologized even denied by modern Adventists. And they have become dysfunctional as a result. This is the result when serious theology becomes discarded and replaced with myth.
The SDA’s have become corrupt, contaminated by false and impossible teachings that no Adventist Pioneer would support. This is very wrong. Neither the history or theology of the Three Angels Messages can be changed and manipulated. Adventist eschatology only functions properly when the hermeneutical rules are respected and followed. Misunderstand the Three A’s and the Advent Movement will self-destruct. Mission accomplished.
"I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages. Said my accompanying angel, 'Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance.'"
Early Writings of Ellen G. White, 1858, also known as: Spiritual Gifts / and The Great Controversy. Page 158, Chapter Title: A Firm Platform.-
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New View of 1st Angels Message
When did the SDA’s change their view of Rev 14: 7 and change the fundamentals of the 1st Angels Message in the process? When did the IJ/PAJ become linked to “the hour of his judgment has come”?
Answer: In Takoma Park, following the great Battle Creek schism; after the death of Ellen White.
In order to deal with their critics, the Takoma Park apologists changed the historic meaning of the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message to mean something that it never meant to any 19th century Adventist. They claimed the IJ was linked to Dan 8:14 and also located in the 1st Angels Message, in Rev 14:7, and that it was a prophetic marker that could never be changed.
In Takoma Park, the IJ was hailed as the linchpin doctrine, even the foundation of the Three Angels Messages. Thus the White Estate indoctrinated generations to believe that the IJ was the most special, historic, and fundamental of all SDA doctrine, when this was never true.
The White Estate is an incompetent and corrupt institution. Contrary to what they teach, Ellen White does not agree with this 20th century viewpoint that places the IJ in the 1st Angels Message, elevating it to “pillar” status.
In fact, Ellen White would never approve the outcome of Glacier View, or what SDA’s teach today about the Three Angels Messages and the Pre-Advent Judgment, or even the Gospel. She does not agree with most of what is being taught by the SDA’s today in her name.
Moreover, Ellen has also made it very clear that no changes could be made to past messages. Once a theological phase or “message” was over, it became “fulfilled” history and prophecy. It was no longer an active prophetic message. Moving forward to the next “message” was the correction and change necessary to keep the church moving forward within the Three Angels Messages.
Such a hermeneutic makes it impossible for anyone in the 20th century to go back and change the fulfilled, 19th century interpretation about the 2nd Coming. But yet, this is exactly what has taken place, in direct opposition to what Ellen White and all the Pioneers teach.
The IJ is a false doctrine and no “pillar” at all. It has replaced the historic doctrine of the 2nd Coming for modern SDA’s, thus destroying the eschatological foundations of the Advent Movement. This is why the SDA’s are self-destructing in confusion and incompetence. They have forgotten their history, theology, and their mission, and it shows.
Listen to Ellen White warn about the importance of not forgetting the Three Angels Messages:
We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history. LS 196
"In like manner those who have had no experience in the first and second angels messages must receive them from others who had an experience and followed down through the messages."
"As Jesus was rejected, so I saw that these messages have been rejected. And as the disciples declared that there is salvation in no other name under heaven, given among men, so also should the servants of God faithfully and fearlessly warn those who embrace but a part of the truths connected with the third message, that they must gladly receive all the messages as God has given them, or have no part in the matter."
Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 188, 189, Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts. 1858
The first, second, and third angel’s messages are all linked together.
The evidences of the abiding, ever-living truth of these grand messages, that mean so much to us, that have awakened such intense opposition from the religious world, cannot be extinguished.
Satan is constantly seeking to cast his hellish shadow about these messages, so that the remnant people of God shall not clearly discern their import, their time, and place; but they live, and are to exert their power upon our religious experience while time shall last.
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, page 926, paragraph 3.
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False View of IJ/PAJ
In order to make the IJ seem credible, the 20th century apologists, including the White Estate, incorrectly claimed that this doctrine defined the true meaning of Rev 14: 7; it was a landmark doctrine from Historic Adventism, from the time period of the 1st Angels Message that could not be questioned or changed. But this position was never true and it is not true today.
Although Dr. Ford correctly pointed out that the IJ cannot be located in, or defined by, Rev 14: 7, the Takoma Park legalists could not understand such facts that proved them wrong. This fatal error about the location and validity of the IJ became the basis for the Glacier View and the new creed called the 27 Fundamentals. The Advent Movement has been self-destructing ever since. The IJ/PAJ is a very misunderstood and false doctrine that is destroying the Advent Movement.
False IJ Passages
2Co_5:10; 1Pe_4:17; Rev 20:12
As for these three NT passages that SDA’s claim supports the IJ, they do no such thing. No passage in either the OT or the NT supports the doctrine of the IJ, because there is no such doctrine in the Bible.
Moreover, when this IJ/PAJ doctrine was invented, in 1857 by the SDA’s, they never claimed it was based on Rev 14: 7 as all modern SDA’s have been taught. The Pioneers knew better. They never changed Miller’s original interpretation as being exclusively about the Second Coming. They always associated this (incorrect) Pre-Advent Judgment, known as the IJ, with the 3rd Angels Message, (Rev 14: 9-12).
This historical fact changes the discussion for the Adventist Community and proves that Glacier View was a sham. Dr. Ford was correct to repudiate the IJ as the PAJ in 1980 and he is still correct today. There is no such “pillar” as the IJ in the Three Angels Messages, much less in the 1st Angels message, as modern SDA’s teach.
The SDA leaders have been very dishonest, legalistic, and incompetent about the IJ/PAJ. They have not told the truth about the doctrinal development of the Advent Movement or the teachings of Ellen White.
All modern SDA’s have been horribly misled by their leaders, especially the White Estate. For generations they have pretended that Ellen White supports the IJ/PAJ in the 1st Angels Message, when this was never true at any time.
No wonder the SDA’s are so confused and dysfunctional? They don’t know the fundamental pillars that define the Advent Movement. They don’t even know what Ellen White teaches on this point or many others that they have also misunderstood.
Let’s take a closer look at the doctrinal development of Dan 8:14. It has gone through numerous changed interpretations, none of which has ever been correct. (In fact, Dan 8: 14 is not the PAJ of the church. That is another prophetic passage in the NT, which the SDA’s have failed to locate, much less understand and embrace.)
The Changing Sanctuary Doctrine
While many SDA's think the Sanctuary/IJ/PAJ doctrine is an important fundamental that must be preserved at all costs, the facts are very different. No teaching associated with Dan 8:14 has ever been "solid" or fully correct at any time. From the very beginning of the Adventist Movement, there has ALWAYS been serious error with the understanding of the Sanctuary doctrine in Dan 8:14. Which is why this doctrine has been changed and revised so many times. And why it is still so full of problems and even more revisions today.
The First Two Interpretations
From the very first attempt to understand Dan 8:14, Miller had the doctrine wrong when he declared that the Sanctuary was the earth to be "cleansed by fire" at the Second Coming. When this event failed to take place within Miller's original time frame, other Adventists, against his advice, revised the date for this "Sanctuary Cleansing" by proclaiming the end of the world would take place on October 22, 1844. This was the first revision to Dan 8:14. And it soon proved to be as wrong as Miller’s initial interpretation.
A Third Interpretation
Following the Great Disappointment of 1844, the two previous Sanctuary positions were declared to be erroneous and Dan 8:14 was dramatically re-interpreted to mean the Heavenly Sanctuary was to be "cleansed" of sin prior to the Second Advent. This was the third interpretation of Dan 8:14. This is the view of the early SDA Pioneers.
By 1845 there had been THREE revisions of Dan 8:14, and there were at least THREE more to come. Why? Because this process of error and reinterpretation would continue well into the 20th and even the 21st century. In fact, there was never a time within the history of the Adventist Movement when Dan 8:14 and the Sanctuary doctrine was without error or debate. Even today, the teaching is still very controversial, wrong, and polarizing. Few realize how many times this dubious doctrine has been adjusted, revised, and changed over the years. It is a doctrine of clay, not a solid pillar of theology like the 2nd Coming.
Fourth Revision in Battle Creek
As the Adventist Movement went forward after the Millerite disappointment, the Battle Creek SDA's in the late 1850's made further revisions to the Sanctuary Doctrine. This FOURTH revision added the concept of a Celestial Judgment of the saints to the previous teaching about the "Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary." This is when the SDA's added the legalistic teaching that individual characters of the saints would be judged to see if they were good enough to be saved. This interpretation would also become known the Pre-Advent Judgment of the church. Prior to this date, there was no concept of a PAJ.
The FOURTH revision to Dan 8: 14 is the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment as the PAJ. The IJ slowly developed within Battle Creek and became famous, thanks primarily to Uriah Smith, the long time Review Editor. He is the champion of the IJ, even writing a large book in the 1870’s that detailed this evolving and unique SDA doctrine. Uriah Smith’s doctrine of the IJ IS an extremely legalistic teaching that was very different from the earlier doctrine of "the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary."
The FIFTH Revision in Takoma Park
Following the great Battle Creek schism and the relocation of the denomination to Takoma Park, the Sanctuary Doctrine would not remain static. It would soon undergo its FIFTH revision; a change, which would never have been approved by Uriah Smith, Ellen White, or any of the Pioneers.
Surprisingly, the Takoma Park apologists began to incorrectly teach that the IJ was located and anchored in the1st Angels Message of Rev 14: 7. This 20th century fabrication about the PAJ was proclaimed to be part of Historic Adventism that could never be challenged or changed. Although this was never true, the White Estate and the Review promoted so much propaganda on this point, supposedly from Ellen White, that this position became normative for all 20th century Adventists and even today. Thus the IJ as the PAJ was taught as fundamental doctrine for generations of modern Adventists.
However, this incorrect and legalistic position would have dire consequences because it elevated the IJ into the status of a "Pillar" that was unknown to the Battle Creek Pioneers. Those, like Dr. Ford, that would not accept this fifth revision of Dan 8:14 would eventually be ostracized from the Adventist Movement and considered traitors.
Thus, in 1980, Glacier View turned this fifth version of the Sanctuary into an official Creed called the 27 Fundamentals, thus creating great confusion and controversy that has effectively derailed the Adventist Movement. In fact, Glacier View created such a major schism within the Adventist Community that it precipitated a massive exodus from the church unparalleled since the Battle Creek debacle at the turn of the 20th century.
With such an IJ backlash, it didn't take long for the leaders to realize that they had made a serious mistake. Therefore they went to work to make more adjustments to the ever-changing Sanctuary doctrine.
The SIXTH Revision
Glacier View was an instant disaster for the SDA’s. It was their greatest mistake of the 20th century, and one that they must soon correct or it will destroy them. This failed attempt to defend the IJ has backfired as Millions left the church, and more leave every day over this issue.
Notwithstanding the exile of Dr. Ford in 1980, the Adventist leaders quickly realized that the IJ was not sustainable or defendable. While they understood that Dr. Ford’s view of the Gospel was clearly more reassuring than Uriah Smiths doctrine of the IJ, they wanted to find a way to keep both. Thus the leaders tried to, once again, reconfigure Dan 8: 14 making it sound more Gospel friendly. This would be the 6th revision to Dan 8: 14.
The post Glacier View leaders now declared that Dan 8: 14 was not about who was "good enough" to be saved--but rather--who had saving faith in Christ. Such a viewpoint does not represent the original Battle Creek doctrine of the IJ, nor does it make any theological sense today. It is just double-talk from those that refuse to repent.
In addition, instead of the saints and their character being on trial, as Uriah Smith taught, the SIXTH version placed God on trial, claiming that he needed to prove that he was just and fair to the universe. Smith would not have supported this revised position any more than he would have supported the fifth version that had incorrectly placed the IJ in the 1st Angels Message. He never taught that point either.
But regardless, this new, post –Glacier View spin about the Sanctuary/IJ/PAJ is officially being promoted by the Denomination today, as if Glacier View had never taken place. And it is this 6TH and latest version that is being presented to the church through the Review and the Sabbath School lessons.
Although the Conservatives loudly protested this SIXTH change from the 5th Revision of Dan 8:14, which was upheld and made official at Glacier View, it was to no avail. It was obvious that Dr. Ford's Gospel was far superior to Uriah Smith's legalistic theology, and therefore, another revision of Dan 8:14 would take place.
Within a decade after Glacier View, the Review backtracked about the Sanctuary Doctrine and started to promote Dr. Ford's version of the Gospel, (without ever admitting this), even as the church took steps to silence the legalistic Conservatives. They also introduced a new policy called "pluralism," which allowed both sides of the debate to embrace either the fifth or the more recent and Gospel friendly sixth version of the Sanctuary/IJ/ PAJ doctrine. Such a compromise was designed to stop the post Glacier View schism and allow the church to move forward without having to admit that they had been wrong about Dan 8:14, or Glacier View, or anything.
Today, after SIX revisions of Dan 8:14, no one should be under any illusion that the Sanctuary/IJ/PAJ doctrine is solid or unchangeable, much less correct. As if it has not undergone numerous and repeated revisions that has dramatically changed its meaning over time. The fact of the matter is that Dan 8:14 is the most problematic, revised, and controversial doctrine in the SDA church.
Few today correctly understand its complex and checkered history that has destroyed the mission and the message of the Adventist Movement and brought great perplexity to modern Adventism. The IJ/ PAJ is ruining the Advent Movement.
Today, the failure to correctly understand the Pre-Advent Judgment has left the SDA church mired in theological chaos and endless schism that will never be resolved until the Seventh and final interpretation of the PAJ emerges. Therefore it is time for the Adventist Community to understand the Gospel meaning of the Pre-Advent Judgment; and to resolve this embarrassing and counterproductive situation that is preventing the Adventist Community from moving forward in unity and apocalyptical purpose.
False IJ Texts
2Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
This passage is about the 2nd Coming. We will all have to stand in front of Christ. The IJ teaches that we are being judged from the record books, and thus we are not there in person, as this text requires. This is one of many ways to disprove this false judgment of the SDA’s.
Matt. 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Matt. 25:32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Matt. 25:33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Matt. 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Rom. 14:11 For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL 1GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”
Rom. 14:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
None of these passages apply to a pre-Advent judgment, supposedly taking place, far out in deep space. Rather, they are about the final Judgment of the world, which takes place on earth, where we will be present in front of Christ.
Judgment as Persecution
1Pet. 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
http://biblehub.com/1_peter/4-17.htm
This passage references Christian persecution as part of the judgments of God upon the Jews. See previous verse 16 “but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.” This is the context, not some future judgment in heaven.
Clark’s Commentary on 1Peter 4:17 states:
Verse 17. Judgment must begin at the house of God. Our Lord had predicted that, previously to the destruction of Jerusalem, his own followers would have to endure various calamities; see Matt. xxiv. 9, 21, 22; Mark xiii. 12, 13; John xvi. 2, &c. Here his true disciples are called the house or family of God. That the converted Jews suffered much from their own brethren, the zealots, or factions into which the Jews were at that time divided, needs little proof; and some interpreters think that this was in conformity to the purpose of God, (Matt. xxiii. 35:
That on you may come all the righteous blood shed from the foundation of the world,) “that the Jewish Christians were to be involved in the general punishment; and that it was proper to begin at them as a part of the devoted Jewish nation, notwithstanding they were now become the house of God, because the justice of God would thereby be more illustriously displayed.” See Macknight.
But probably the word krima, which we here translate judgment, may mean no more than affliction and distress; for it was a Jewish maxim that, when God was about to pour down some general judgment, he began with afflicting his own people in order to correct and amend them, that they might be prepared for the overflowing scourge.
In Bava Kama, fol. 60, 1, we have the same sentiment, and in nearly the same words, as in Peter, viz.: “God never punishes the world but because of the wicked, but he always begins with the righteous first. The destroyer makes no difference between the just and the unjust, only he begins first with the righteous.”
See Ezek. ix. 1–7, where God orders the destroyer to slay both old and young in the city: But, said he, begin at my sanctuary.
And if it first begin at us. Jews, who have repented, and believed on the Son of God; what shall the end be of them — the Jews who continue impenitent, and obey not the Gospel of God? Here is the plainest reference to the above Jewish maxim; and this, it appears, was founded upon the text, which St. Pet. immediately quotes.
Matt. 23:34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
Matt. 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Matt. 23:36 “Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Matt. 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Matt. 23:38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
John 16:2 “They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
Lighfoot says:
[Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted.] To this relate those words of 1 Peter 4:17, “The time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God”; that is, the time foretold by our Saviour is now at hand, in which we are to be delivered up to persecution,
The Judgment of the Wicked Not The IJ
Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things, which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20 speaks about the binding of Satan, the millennial reign of the saints with Christ, and the last judgment of the wicked. This is not to be confused with the Judgment of the 2nd Coming, which has already taken place.
There is no reference here to the IJ.
http://biblehub.com/revelation/20-12.htm
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/revelation/20.htm
Research Links:
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
IJ
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ment-1.htm
Tom Norris, Ellen White, & the IJ
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -white.htm
First Angel's Message & the Pre-Advent Judgment
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ge-Pre.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ge-Pre.htm
Conclusion
Today, the Adventists are in a great crisis. They have “forgotten” where they came from and where they are supposed to be going. They have horribly misunderstood the Three Angels Messages, even as they long ago became blind to the teachings of the Apostles and Adventist Pioneers.
Until the SDA’s repent for being so wrong about the Three Angels Messages, especially the IJ/ PAJ, and for being so incompetent and dishonest about Ellen White and church history, they will continue to self-destruct. Their present course and doctrines are not correct or sustainable. There is no hope for the Adventists unless they can repent for Glacier View and tell the truth about the Three Angels Messages and the PAJ.
I hope this helps.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform and All Experts.Com
Offline
Tom,
Thank you for such a lengthy reply.
Having read the diatribe I think I understand better what happens to people described by Ellen White in A Word To The Little Flock:
While praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them—when a voice said to me, “Look again, and look a little higher.” At this I raised my eyes and saw a straight and narrow path, cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were traveling to the City, which was at the farther end of the path. They had a bright light set up behind them at the first end of the path, which an angel told me was the Midnight Cry. This light shone all along the path, and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble. And if they kept their eyes fixed on Jesus, who was just before them, leading them to the City, they were safe. But soon some grew weary, and they said the City was a great way off, and they expected to have entered it before.
Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted Hallelujah! Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected.
They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus’ coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spake the time, he poured on us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God as Moses’ did when he came down from Mount Sinai.—A Word to the Little Flock, 14 (emphasis supplied). SDD 53.4
Understand that the people on the path are those who accepted the Advent message regarding the IJ, Rev 14:7 "The hour of His judgement IS come" not is coming!
As all good Adventists know this judgement began in 1844 in fulfilment of Dan 8:14.
Desmond Ford thinks Jesus went into the Most Holy Place at His ascension which cannot be supported from Scripture. The only place the Most Holy place is mentioned is in Hebrews 9:3 not in 9:12!
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
This beginning of Judgement is not the Second Coming as you suggest.
You seem to be confused over the IJ and the executive judgement. Everyone knows that court cases consist of evidence being considered and deliberated before verdict and sentance.
Having rejected the inspired council from God to His Remnant people as stated above, is it now impossible for you, Desmond Ford and others to get back on the right track as stated above?
John
Offline
The IJ/PAJ Delusion
Like many SDA’s, you are on the wrong path. You seem to think that what you have been taught by the Denomination is true, regardless if the facts show otherwise. Such loyal “belief” is delusion and Gospel blindness. This is the same dangerous mind set that caused the Jews to disregard Jesus’ Gospel teaching. They were blind to the facts that condemned them, being very stubborn, legalistic, and unteachable.
Please understand, this is not a debate of opinions; a he said, she said, type of discussion. No. It is a discussion about the facts of church history and theology. Our personal opinions and views don’t really matter, nor does tradition or the official myths taught by religious leaders.
Let me try to clarify some points and see if you can comprehend and process the real issues.
1) Ellen White has no doctrinal authority: Like many SDA’s, you seem to think that Ellen White’s writings are like scripture. This is not true, nor was it ever true.
Such error is fatal, if not corrected. It will, and it already has, prevented the church from properly understanding the Gospel, much less the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages. While Ellen White is a good source to understand the doctrinal development of Adventism, her writings are not like scripture and she is not like either an OT prophet or a NT Apostle.
2) Ellen White Does NOT Support the IJ in the 1st Angels Message: Ellen White is very misunderstood about many things because the White Estate is an incompetent and dishonest archive. They have brainwashed millions into thinking Ellen White believes, teaches, and supports this official view that the IJ is located in the 1st Angels Message. While this is what the White Estate and the Denomination teach, they are very wrong.
Ellen White NEVER taught that the IJ was part of the 1st Angels Message or that it was a fundamental pillar from 1844. (Neither did anyone else in Battle Creek). She NEVER said or wrote that the IJ was the meaning of “the hour of his Judgment has come.” The only “judgment” in Rev 14: 7, for all Adventists, was the 2nd Coming.
This is not an opinion, or sour grapes, but an irrefutable fact of church history and theology.
No 19th century SDA ever claimed “the hour of his Judgment has come” in Rev 14: 7 was the IJ. NO ONE, least of all Ellen White. The Denomination’s current view is pure myth and fabrication that should not be tolerated, much less believed. The official view about the IJ and the Three Angels Messages is horribly wrong. Ellen White in no way supports such mythical, legalistic, and worthless eschatology.
What you and many others think is heaven sent truth, supported by Ellen White, is neither. The IJ is not the reason why Adventism exists. That distinction goes to the doctrine of the 2nd Coming as the day of Judgment and the end of the world. The IJ is the reason why the Advent Movement has crashed and burned.
The IJ is not a “pillar,” much less a doctrine in the 1st Angels Message. The IJ is foolish error and double-talk that Ellen White does not support. You and all SDA’s have been misled and deceived. Let me show you.
The IJ Delusion
First, you quoted one of the earliest SDA documents, “A Word to the Little Flock,” 1847.
More specifically, you quoted from an early vision of Ellen White:
“To The Remnant Scattered Abroad.”
As God has shown me in holy vision the travels of the Advent people to the Holy City, and the rich reward to be given those who wait the return of their Lord from the wedding, it may be my duty to give you a short sketch of what God has revealed to me…
While praying at the family altar, the Holy Ghost fell on me, and I seemed to be rising higher and higher, far above the dark world. I turned to look for the Advent people in the world, but could not find them—when a voice said to me, “Look again, and look a little higher.” At this I raised my eyes and saw a straight and narrow path, cast up high above the world. On this path the Advent people were traveling to the City, which was at the farther end of the path.
http://drc.whiteestate.org/files/1322.pdf
http://www.earlysda.com/flock/lflockcontents.html
Then you said:
“Understand that the people on the path are those who accepted the Advent message regarding the IJ, Rev 14:7 "The hour of His judgment IS come" not is coming!”
Really? Who told you the IJ represents the proper “path” for the Advent people? Ellen White? Hardly.
All SDA’s today think the IJ was “revealed” to Ellen White in vision, --because this is what the church teaches. But this point is mythical, absurd, and very wrong. It never happened.
When this 1847 vision was given to Ellen White, the IJ did not exist! It would not become a concept for another 10 years, and then it took another 20 years for the doctrine to be articulated and published in book form by Uriah Smith. But even then, he never said the IJ was located in Rev 14: 7. He correctly placed it as an appendage to the 3rd Angels Message.
So Ellen White could not, not, not, not, be speaking about the IJ in vision as you claim. Do you understand this simple point? The White Estate has deceived millions on this point.
The IJ is not only false, so too is any configuration of the Three Angels that claims the IJ is located in the 1st Angels Message. It was never there, and it can never be there. The Takoma Park apologists should never have placed it there.
This is madness. Ellen White would not be pleased with you or the church she co-founded.
Why are you trying to change the 1st Angels Message? Why are you so far off the Advent path?
Why are you repudiating Ellen White and trying to blame Dr. Ford for telling the truth? What is the matter with you?
What don’t you understand about not changing these original messages? Listen to Ellen White on this point.
"I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages. Said my accompanying angel, "Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance."
(Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 258, paragraph 3, Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts A Firm Platform.)
"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. " {2SM 104.2}
The original eschatology of the Three Angels Messages cannot be changed. The IJ was never a pillar in any of the Three Angels Messages, much less the 1st. The IJ is a Trojan horse; a fraud that has been used to contaminate, change, and destroy the original eschatology of the Three Angels Messages.
No wonder the Advent Movement has become so dysfunctional? They are not even close to understanding or following the Three A’s or Ellen White, much less the Gospel, which is the first Pillar in the 1st Angels Message. The SDA’s have followed the fraud of the IJ off the Advent “path” and over a cliff.
SDA Pillars
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … illars.htm
I repeat, the 19th century SDA’s never claimed the IJ was located in Rev 14: 7, aka, the 1st Angels Message. This fatal myth originated from the Takoma Park apologists and was made official at the sham trial of Dr. Ford at Glacier View. Ellen White would not support any of the various Takoma Park views of the IJ, much less the outcome of Glacier View. Those that think otherwise have been badly misled.
I find it ironic, as well as very dishonest, that those who claim to support Ellen White as having doctrinal authority, repudiate what she teaches about the IJ and many other things. They are blind to the facts, which condemn them.
While the IJ supporters THINK they are following Ellen White by insisting that the IJ is part of the 1st Angels Message, they are taking a position directly against the facts of history and her teachings and warnings. Anyone that supports the IJ today, is an enemy of Ellen White, not her friend as they pretend.
Ellen White condemns anyone that tries to change the history and theological development of the Three Angels Messages. Those that insert the IJ into Rev 14: 7, are not, not, not, following the original Three A’s or Ellen White whatsoever. They are repudiating her core teachings that define and empower the Advent Movement.
This IJ error is why the modern SDA’s are self-destructing. They have long ago turned away from the genuine eschatology that made them famous and gave them purpose, mission, and hope. The Denomination has turned away from the genuine Three Angels Messages, and also away from the real Ellen White, happily embracing the fraud of the White Estate created. Sad.
3) The SDA’s were very correct to understand that there must be a Pre-Advent Judgment of the last Church. I am not saying otherwise. This point became evident as they pushed eschatology forward, trying to understand from the Bible how the world would end.
However, the Adventists were wrong to 1) think the PAJ was located in Dan 8: 14 and 2) that it was the IJ.
The Adventists have never correctly understood Dan 8: 14. NEVER. In fact, this passage was originally viewed as the 2nd Coming and the end of the world. There was no Pre-Advent Judgment assigned to it whatsoever.
However, after 1844, during the period of the 3rd Angels Message, this passage was changed to supposedly mean the PAJ. This was the FOURTH, change and there were more to come.
History shows that there has been 6 (six) different interpretations of Dan 8: 14. And it is still not correct today!
Dan 8: 14 is not about the IJ or even the concept of a PAJ. It is primarily the story about the Jews taking back their Temple from their enemies. It is the story of Hanukkah, not the IJ. This is the 7th and correct interpretation of Dan 8: 14 for the Adventist Community to understand.
If Dan 8: 14 is not the PAJ, then what passage is?
Answer: The genuine PAJ of the last church cannot be in the OT. Rather, it must be in the NT. It is the Laodicean Message of Rev 3:14.
Here is new doctrine for the Advent church! The genuine PAJ is the key to moving Adventism forward to the 4th Angels Message. The IJ is a fraud and will only continue to divide and destroy the Advent Movement.
4) Today, the SDA church has embraced a false view of the Three Angels Messages with both hands: However, the 1st Angels Message does not contain the IJ, or even the concept of a PAJ.
The only Judgment in the 1st Angels Message is the 2nd Coming. The IJ, even though wrong, is linked to the 3rd Angels Message, - and not as a “pillar.” Thus, the present theology of the Three A’s is fatally flawed and must be corrected. If not, the Advent Movement will continue to collapse.
Ellen White makes it clear that the Advent Movement will fail if they stray from their core eschatology, which is the Three Angels Messages. This is what has taken place. They are on the wrong path, following a distorted, legalistic, and worthless view of the Three Angels Messages. Don’t shoot the messenger. Repent and embrace Gospel Reform before it is too late.
Desmond Ford was very correct to expose the IJ as a false pillar, located within a fabricated and changed version of the Three Angels Messages. Unless the Denomination repents for Glacier View and returns to the genuine and original version of the Three A’s, they will continue to self-destruct and look very foolish.
Today, the SDA’s are very confused and wrong about Ellen White and the Judgment that made them famous. Unfortunately, they have replaced the 2nd Coming with a mythical, and secret Judgment way out in deep space. This IJ error will be fatal if they do not soon repent and return to the genuine version of the Three A’s, which is based on the Protestant Gospel and the doctrine of the 2nd Coming.
I hope this discussion will open your eyes and enlighten your mind. It is a glaring and dangerous error to think Ellen White placed the IJ in the 1st Angels Message, or that the PAJ is located in Daniel.
The SDA leaders have been, and still are, very incompetent and dishonest. They have misled millions and you are one of their many victims. You, and many other SDA’s need to wake up, repent, and understand what is true and what is not.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform and All Experts.Com
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The IJ
Tom, to be fair, I would not rate anyone an EXPERT who has apostatized from truth. Having fallen off track into darkness unable to recover yourselves. This is just a very mournful and extremely unfortunate situation for you to have gotten yourselves into.
Those loving not the truth receive strong delusions are lost 2 Thes 2:11-12
Since the Bible is replete with with the teachings of a pre advent judgement why do you ignore this Biblical teaching in favour of warring against God and His remnant church.
How did you get yourselves into the blind alley and not able to see what is happening to yourselves?
Have the words of Ellen White been fulfilled? Have you in fact fallen off the path into the darkness and unable to recover because you are now so totally deluded that you can no longer see and staggering downhill to perdition?
Since you no longer accept the Teachings of the Bible why in fact bother? I wont waste much time here but why do you not try and find something useful to do with your time since what you are attempting will only bring harm to yourselves and others who are too weak and gullible to understand your heresies?
John, Birmingham, United Kingdom
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IJ Discussion Continued
John said: To be fair I would not rate anyone an EXPERT who has apostatized from truth. Having fallen off track into darkness unable to recover yourselves. This is just a very mournful and extremely unfortunate situation for you to have gotten yourselves into.
Tom replied: Stop pretending that the SDA’s have all possible truth, and that everyone else is wrong. While they do have some remarkable truths, they also have many, many errors. Neither the empirical evidence nor the NT supports such a self-centered and arrogant view.
So you are not being rational, fair, or honest. What you think is great religious doctrine, the IJ as the PAJ, is great error and darkness, making it impossible for you to see Gospel Truth.
For those that claim to be Christian, the Gospel teachings of the NT define religious “truth.” Those Christians that refuse to follow what Christ teaches can be said to be committing apostasy. Not those that reject the double-talk and error of the SDA’s.
In fact, Jesus says no one should teach others, unless they first understand the topic fully and correctly. At this point, the SDA’s are so confused and divided about doctrine that they should not be teaching anyone anything. They need to repent and learn the Gospel and become honest with own church history before they can teach true doctrine to others.
Matt. 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Matt. 7:4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Matt. 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
In case you missed it; the IJ represents the “log” in the SDA eye that must be removed in order for the Adventists to understand truth. They need to stop correcting others and put their own divided house in order. If not, they are “finished!”
Mark 3:24 “If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mark 3:25 “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
Mark 3:26 “If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished!
Today, the SDA’s are great hypocrites and fools; they are not capable of teaching anyone the Gospel, much less how to be saved, because they no longer know how to define the New Covenant, much less the Three Angels Messages. They have been caught dishonestly manipulating Ellen White and denominational history, teaching many false doctrines in the process. Especially the doctrine of the IJ/PAJ, which they claim is based in the Old Testament passage of Dan 8: 14 and linked to Rev 14: 7.
The modern Adventists have a stubborn, Old Covenant mindset, even as they pretend to follow the New Covenant, which they do not understand. But few are fooled today.
The SDA’s represent, practice, and defend the Old Covenant, when they were supposed to be Protestant champions for the New Covenant. This is why millions have left the Denomination; because the SDA’s do not follow Jesus or teach the Gospel correctly. They stand outside the New Covenant, enemies of the Gospel, which they do not understand. (Just like the Jews).
See: Leaving the SDA Church
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=233
The Adventists represent the Jewish legalists in the early church that followed the apostle James and fought against Paul’s correct Gospel theology. Which is to say that the SDA’s represent the “circumcision party” of the early church. They are on the wrong side of this classic Gospel debate between law and Gospel; no longer knowing what is truth and what is not.
As a result, the SDA’s are full of confusion, dishonesty, division, and double-talk. They are not following the Gospel teachings of Christ whatsoever, much less the Protestant Reformers or the Adventist Pioneers, even though they pretend otherwise.
Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Gal. 2:12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.
Gal. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.
Gal. 2:14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
The modern Adventists are blind to the meaning of Galatians, and about their tragic 1888 history with that book. As a result, they are in a “very mournful and extremely unfortunate situation.”
However, they have no one to blame but themselves for their ignorance and present dysfunction, division, and schism. Their refusal to be honest about Ellen White and her writings and the doctrinal development of the Three Angels Messages, as well as the 1888 debate over Galatians is shameful. Such stubborn and willful blindness shows that they are very much like the wicked Jews that rejected Christ. They think error is truth, and truth error. Such spiritual blindness is fatal.
2Cor. 3:12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,
2Cor. 3:13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.
2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.
2Cor. 3:15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
2Cor. 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Listen to Ellen White make the point that the SDA’s are very much like the unbelieving Jews.
"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God.”
“For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people."
The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 166.
“What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong!”
“The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness.”
“The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct.”
Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 3, p. 252-253
Today, the SDA’s are as blind as the 1st century Jews that misunderstood and rejected the Gospel of Christ. Just as the Jews misunderstood their own history, prophets, and writings, so too the SDA’s. They both have things so confused that they think light is darkness and darkness light.
Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
The Jews never repented, much less became united on the Gospel. Thus they were destroyed. The SDA’s also refuse to repent, stubbornly resisting the Gospel and repudiating their Pioneers. Thus they will share the same basic fate. This is why they are self-destructing for all to see. Like the Jews, they have been reproved before, but they never learn from their mistakes.
No IJ in 1847
John, when you quote Ellen White (in 1847, Word to the Little Flock) about staying on the proper Advent Path, you are very mistaken to think she is defending or promoting the IJ. This is historically and theologically impossible. Not only did it never happen, it could never take place.
Ellen White is pointing back to 1844 when the Adventists bravely proclaimed that the world would end with the 2nd Advent on October 22. There was no concept or doctrine about the IJ or a PAJ at this time, (or in 1847).
Only the 2nd Advent was the featured doctrine of the 1844 “Midnight Cry.” No IJ. No PAJ.
Do you understand this historical fact? Can you embrace this point of light, which will lead you to more light? Or have you committed yourself to darkness beyond the point of repentance?
Luke 8:16 “Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed; but he puts it on a lampstand, so that those who come in may see the light.
Luke 8:17 “For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
Luke 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
Let all SDA’s understand: double-talk and propaganda are not the same as truth. The SDA leaders have badly misinformed you and everyone else about Adventist history and theology and it needs to stop.
Early Adventism had zero to do with the concept of a PAJ, much less the IJ. There was no IJ in Rev 14: 7. Not back in 1844, or today. All SDA’s today need to acknowledge their great error about the IJ and REPENT.
I repeat: the Adventist people have been greatly deceived by their incompetent, legalistic, and corrupt leaders. Glacier View, in 1980, was a fatal mistake. This is where the 20th century SDA church officially LEFT the Advent Path. Thus they have been following a false, IJ based view of the Three A’s ever sense, (false light), which is why the Adventists are blind, lost in the dark, self-destructing for all to see.
But yet, they think they are “rich” in doctrine, “wealthy” with truth, having no errors for which to repent. Poor, blind, unsaved SDA’s, they are a wretched, shameful group.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Listen carefully to Ellen White: No IJ in 1844
“They had a bright light set up behind them at the first end of the path, which an angel told me was the Midnight Cry. This light shone all along the path, and gave light for their feet so they might not stumble.”
Let everyone understand: This “bright light” to guide the Advent Movement forward was the 1844 doctrine of a literal 2nd Coming. NOT THE IJ. The 2nd Advent was a very controversial and “far out” doctrine for that time period, even as the IJ would not be invented until 1857. Most rejected the 2nd Coming as false and thus rejected the Advent Path.
Listen to more Ellen White and understand:
“Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far. The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected.”
Again, Ellen White is speaking about those that “rashly denied” the doctrine of the SECOND COMING. She is not, not, not, speaking about the IJ, which she had never heard of, because it did not exist at this time and would not exist for another 10 years! (But even then, it was never viewed by the Pioneers as being located in Rev 14: 7 or the 1st Angels Message.)
Let every SDA understand: there is no doctrine of the IJ in the 1st Angels Message, as all modern SDA’s have been taught. It is pure myth, legalism, and misdirection. The facts cannot be refuted. (Or perhaps you don’t want to admit the facts, so you can continue to pretend you are correct? The Jews played this same game and so too many SDA’s.)
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Those SDA’s today that insist the IJ can be found in Rev 14: 7 are dead wrong. They are heretics that repudiate the Pioneers. Such refuse to acknowledge the facts of history and honestly embrace the doctrinal development of the Three Angels Messages. They are denying what Ellen White teaches about Adventist eschatology, not supporting her as they claim.
Ellen White Declares No Changes to 1st Angels Message:
"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. " {2SM 104.2}
Those that support the IJ are denying the facts of church history and NC theology. They are an enemy of Ellen White, even as they think they support her. They are blind fools. They have fallen off the Advent Path and sit in the dark; yet they think they are following the light. They are delusional, just like the 1st century Jews.
"I entreat you, brethren, be not like the Pharisees, who were blinded with spiritual pride, self-righteousness, and self-sufficiency, and who because of this were forsaken of God. For years I have been receiving instructions and warnings that this was the danger to our people." The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, p. 166.
Ellen White makes it clear that no one can go back and change the past theological messages that defined the Advent Movement. She makes it clear that it is impossible for the IJ to be located in the 1st Angels Message. Thus she would she ever support such a dramatic recasting of the Three Angels Messages. “Not a peg or pin” is to be changed or removed, much less the insertion of myth and legalistic error.
It is time for the SDA Community to understand the truth about the Ellen White, the IJ, and the Three Angels Messages.
Listen to more Ellen White:
“If ever a people needed true and faithful watchmen, who will not hold their peace, who will cry day and night, sounding the warning God has given, it is the Seventh-day Adventists. Those who have had great light, blessed opportunities, who like Capernaum have been exalted to heaven in point of privileges, shall they, by non-improvement, be left to darkness corresponding to the greatness of the light given?" The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White Letters, p. 349.
"It is a grievous sin in the sight of God for men to place themselves between the people and the message that He would have come to them as some of our brethren are now doing. There are some who, like the Jews, are doing their utmost to make the message of God of none effect. Let these doubting, questioning ones either receive the light of the truth for this time, or let them stand out of the way, that others may have an opportunity of receiving the truth, that the wrath of God may not come on them because they are bodies of darkness, when He desires them to be bodies of light.”
SDA’s Mimic Jews
"Those who live just prior to the second appearing of Christ may expect a large measure of His Holy Spirit. If God has ever spoken by me, some of our leading men are going over the same ground of refusing the message of mercy as the Jews did in the time of Christ. If they turn away from the light, they will fail to meet the high and holy claims of God for this important time. They will fail to fulfill the sacred responsibility that He has entrusted to them.”
"The character and prospects of the people of God are similar to those of the Jews, who could not enter in because of unbelief. Self-sufficiency, self-importance, and spiritual pride separated them from God, and He hid His face from them . . . .
"The light of truth is shining upon us as clearly as it shone upon the Jewish people, but the hearts of men are as hard and unimpressible as in the days of Christ, because they know not what they oppose.
Many who claim to be standing in the light are in darkness, and know it not. They have so enshrouded themselves in unbelief that they call darkness light, and light darkness.
They are ignorant of that which they condemn and oppose. But their ignorance is not such as God will excuse, for He has given them light, and they reject it.
They have before them the example of the past, but they will not be warned, and unbelief is enclosing them in impenetrable darkness.
They refuse to accept the testimonies they ought to believe, and are ready to accept tidbits of gossip and testimonies of men, showing their credulousness and readiness to believe that which they want to believe."
Manuscript Releases Volume Eleven, pp. 286-287.
It is time for the Advent Community to pay close attention to the real Ellen White. She is screaming for SDA’s to repent and return to the original and genuine theology of the Three Angels Messages. She is not promoting the IJ whatsoever, much less teaching that it is fundamental doctrine from the 1st Angels Message.
Is anyone listening? No one in the White Estate, that is for sure. They are the source for much myth and false doctrine, and they refuse to repent.
John said: Those loving not the truth receive strong delusions are lost 2 Thes 2:11-12
Tom replied: For SDA’s, the IJ is a very strong and fatal delusion. So too are their twisted views about Ellen White, the Law, eschatology, and many things. In fact, the SDA’s are so wrong about doctrine and church history, that they don’t even teach the Lord’s Supper correctly, much less the doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, which they do not fully understand as yet. They are a confused, Old Covenant Denomination, even as the New Covenant is unknown to them.
No wonder they have been judged by Christ in the real PAJ (Rev 3: 14) as wretched, blind, and naked. They have little to brag about. They should hang their heads in shame. The tithe paying, Old Covenant Sabbath keeping SDA’s are very much like the Jews that killed Christ. Pity.
Ellen White; SDA’s Walking In Darkness
"My brethren and sisters, humble your hearts before the Lord. Seek him earnestly. I have an intense desire to see you walking in the light as Christ is in the light.
I pray most earnestly for you. But I cannot fail to see that the light which God has given me is not favorable to our ministers or our churches.
You have left your first love.
Self-righteousness is not the wedding-garment.
A failure to follow the clear light of truth is our fearful danger.
The message to the Laodicean church reveals our condition as a people."
Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 15, 1904.
Today, there is no excuse for anyone to believe that the IJ is part of the 1st Angels Message. Ellen White never said or wrote such an impossible point and neither did Uriah Smith or any 19th century Adventist. It is total myth and misdirection.
So why do the SDA’s believe a lie?
Why do they claim to follow Ellen White, but then repudiate what she says about 1844 and the IJ?
This is madness. The White Estate is a house of lies for all to see. The Denomination has gone blind.
The IJ is delusion, misdirection, and apostasy. It will be fatal to the Advent Movement if not repudiated and removed from the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages. Ellen White demands its’ removal, but who is paying any attention to the real Ellen White of history?
Millions of innocent SDA’s have been led away from Christ and his Gospel and from the genuine theology of the Three Angels messages because of this myth about the IJ. It has to stop.
Generations of Adventists have been taught a false and worthless view of the PAJ and even Ellen White. It is time for the Advent Community to return to the genuine eschatology that is endorsed by the real Ellen White and all the Pioneers. The White Estate is promoting not only a false prophet of their own making, but also a false version of the Three Angels Messages, also of their own making. Both are poison.
Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
John said: Since the Bible is replete with the teachings of a pre advent judgement why do you ignore this Biblical teaching in favor of warring against God and His remnant church.
Tom said: The Bible teaches a final Judgment of the world, both in the OT and the NT. Jesus also made this doctrine very clear.
Psa. 9:7 But the LORD abides forever;
He has established His throne for judgment,
Psa. 9:8 And He will judge the world in righteousness;
He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.
Eccl. 12:13-14 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
Matt. 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
2Pet. 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Matt. 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt. 24:30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt. 24:31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
In fact, Jesus teaches that many Christians will be shocked in the Day of Judgment to discover that they are not saved. These legalists were too busy following a false Christ and being loyal to their various denominations to understand the genuine Gospel.
Jesus makes it clear what happens to those that follow a false Christ and a distorted Gospel. The same will happen to those that embrace the fraud of the IJ. It is a fatal mistake.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Moreover, the “remnant” church is not just the SDA’s, but all denominations in Laodicea. They have all been judged guilty in the PAJ of the last church.
PAJ in the Bible
As for the general “concept” of a Pre Advent Judgment (PAJ); the OT is full of God’s judgment and wrath. Which is a form of PAJ. This PAJ can be defined as punishment by God upon mankind, prior to the 2nd Advent. This PAJ of God was often used against Israel or its enemies. For example, while Israel was the beneficiary of God’s (pre-advent) judgment against Egypt and their gods. Later, God unleashed his (pre-advent) Judgments against Israel and other Nations. Thus, God’s punishing actions can be viewed as a type of Pre-Advent Judgment.
1Chr. 16:14 He is the LORD our God;
His judgments are in all the earth.
Ex. 6:6 “Say, therefore, to the sons of Israel, ‘I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage. I will also redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.
Ex. 12:12 ‘For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments — I am the LORD.
Ezek. 5:8 therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Behold, I, even I, am against you, and I will execute judgments among you in the sight of the nations.
Ezek. 5:15 ‘So it will be a reproach, a reviling, a warning and an object of horror to the nations who surround you when I execute judgments against you in anger, wrath and raging rebukes. I, the LORD, have spoken.
Ezek. 14:21 For thus says the Lord GOD, “How much more when I send My four severe judgments against Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts and plague to cut off man and beast from it!
Ezek. 11:9 “And I will bring you out of the midst of the city and deliver you into the hands of strangers and execute judgments against you.
Ezek. 30:14 “I will make Pathros desolate,
Set a fire in Zoan
And execute judgments on Thebes.
Ezek. 30:19 “Thus I will execute judgments on Egypt,
And they will know that I am the LORD.”’”
We also discussed this earlier about Peter 4:17. This passage references Christian persecution as part of the pre-Advent judgments of God upon the Jews. See previous verse 16 “but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.” This is the context, not some future judgment in heaven that started in 1844.
Such OT “judgments” against the Nations are obviously in the past, taking place long before the 2nd Advent, which has yet to take place. They represent the pre- Advent Judgments of God. Such a fact pattern supports the concept of a PAJ of the church, which is the New Covenant Nation of Israel.
So the question is not whether there is a PAJ of the church in the Bible; but rather, “where is it?” and what does it say?
First off, the OT does not instruct the NC, much less judge the church. Daniel has no standing to reprove anyone in the NC. Thus no one should look for the PAJ of the church in the Old Covenant. It can never be there. Only the NT contains the PAJ of the church.
Second, Jesus is the Judge of the world and the church, of which he is also the head. The PAJ of the church must be in the NT and Christ must also be involved as Judge.
John 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
Third, Rev 3: 14 is the genuine PAJ of the last church. For modern SDA’s, Rev 3: 14 must replace the error of Dan 8: 14. If not the Advent Movement is finished.
Old / Wrong PAJ
Dan. 8:14 He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”
New/ Correct PAJ
Rev. 3:14 -22 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Rev. 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Rev. 3:21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev. 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
Are any SDA’s listening? Do they even care about truth anymore?
7 PAJ’s
While many assume there is one PAJ of the church, few comprehend that there are 7 (seven). Revelation shows Christ pre-judging all seven era’s of the church, starting with Ephesus in Rev 2:1. This means there are 7 different PAJ’s in the NT; one for each church era. The PAJ of the LAST church, is not Dan 8: 14, as the SDA’s claim, but Rev 3: 14.
Moreover, this PAJ of Laodicea has already taken place; and the last church has failed horribly. Thus we have the written verdict of the PAJ in Rev 3: 14. Where Christ demands all denominations, including the SDA’s, repent or be lost.
Why do the SDA’s pretend that Daniel, an OC Jew, is to Judge the Church when Christ is the Judge?
Why do Adventists insist that Ellen White places the IJ in the 1st Angels Message when she never did?
Why do the SDA’s refuse to admit that Rev 3: 14 is the true PAJ of the last church?
Why have the Adventists become so dishonest and incompetent, hostile to Jesus and to genuine Gospel / Adventist eschatology?
When will they repent and understand the genuine PAJ for the last church, as well as the original version of the Three Angels Messages?
John said: How did you get yourselves into the blind alley and not able to see what is happening to yourselves?
Tom said: Anyone that thinks the Advent Movement was founded on the doctrine of the IJ is blind, deaf, and dumb. Such a view is impossible, absurd, and against the Gospel, as well as the teachings of Ellen White and all the facts of history.
No wonder the SDA’s are self-destructing? They have long ago left the Advent Path, denying the very doctrines that empowered them forward through the Three Angels Messages. Now they are way off the path, in the dark, pretending they are following the light from 1844, when they are doing no such thing.
Matt. 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is 1clear, your whole body will be full of light.
Matt. 6:23 “But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
John said: Have the words of Ellen White been fulfilled? Have you in fact fallen off the path into the darkness and unable to recover because you are now so totally deluded that you can no longer see and staggering downhill to perdition?
Tom said: Yes. Ellen White’s early vision (that you quoted) is about how people react to the truth about the 2nd Advent. She predicted that those who denied the 1844 “bright light” about the 2nd Coming would fall away from the Advent Path.
You and many others are claiming this “bright light” is the doctrine of the IJ, which is impossible and very wrong. Such are denying Ellen White and the doctrine of the 2nd Advent. She has much to say to those that “rashly deny” the 1844 doctrine of the 2nd Coming, replacing it with the fraud of the IJ, or anything else.
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Then Jesus would encourage them by raising his glorious right arm, and from his arm came a glorious light, which waved over the Advent band, and they shouted Hallelujah!
Others rashly denied the light behind them, and said that it was not God that had led them out so far.
The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the City, as all the wicked world which God had rejected.
They fell all the way along the path one after another, until we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus’ coming.
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Notice that the end of the vision features the 2nd Coming, not the IJ, which did not exist at this time. Also notice how difficult it is for those that have misunderstood the light of the 2nd Coming to regain their footing. The IJ is darkness, not light. It is not part of the genuine Three Angels Messages. It is great error and delusion, deceiving millions.
Modern SDA’s In Darkness
In hindsight, the SDA Denomination has fulfilled this early vision. They have officially taken their eyes off Jesus and the 1844 doctrine of the 2nd Advent, --replacing it with the false light of the IJ. This fatal error has caused millions to “stumble” and fall off the Advent Path. Ellen White was correct to see what has taken place and warn against it.
John, you and many others have been deceived. You are not in the light or on the Advent Path. The Three Angels Messages does not contain the IJ in its’ foundation and Ellen White never said otherwise. Such a false construct will be fatal for the Advent Movement.
By embracing this popular, Takoma Park view of the Three A’s, you have “rejected” the genuine Battle Creek version, replacing it with only “part of the truths connected with the 3rd Angels Message.”
Ellen White says this is wrong. You must embrace the primary theology of the previous messages, exactly as they unfolded, or have nothing to do with any of the Three Angels Messages. It’s an all or nothing proposition.
Listen to Ellen White make this point:
"In like manner those who have had no experience in the first and second angels messages must receive them from others who had an experience and followed down through the messages."
"As Jesus was rejected, so I saw that these messages have been rejected. And as the disciples declared that there is salvation in no other name under heaven, given among men, so also should the servants of God faithfully and fearlessly warn those who embrace but a part of the truths connected with the third message, that they must gladly receive all the messages as God has given them, or have no part in the matter."
Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 188, 189, Chapter Title: Spiritual Gifts. 1858
In other words, the 1st Angels Message can never be revised to feature the IJ. This was a huge, 20th century mistake that is ruining the Advent Movement. Ellen White warned the Adventists to never forget or forsake the details about the 1st and 2nd Angels Messages, much less to ignore, change, or repudiate them.
Anyone that claims the IJ is the true light from 1844 is “in perfect darkness.” Such have fallen away from the Advent Path; so badly deceived they don’t even know it. Thus, the SDA church has been wretched and blind for generations, just as the real PAJ declares.
"Let the truths that are the foundation of our faith be kept before the people. … We are now to understand what the pillars of our faith are, --the truths that have made us as a people what we are, leading us on step by step."
Ellen White, Review and Herald, May 25, 1905.
While many viewed the above statement as supporting the IJ, it does the opposite. Here Ellen White is making a plea for SDA’s to understand and embrace the correct doctrines from early Adventism. The IJ was never part of either the 1st or 2nd Angels Messages, much less the reason for the existence of the SDA’s Denomination. Traditional Adventism is dead wrong and false. It has no support from Ellen White as claimed. In fact, she warns against it.
Ellen White predicted that the SDA church would come to reject her views and self-destruct. She was correct. This has already taken place. And the White Estate is the worst offender. Ellen White does not support Traditional Takoma Park theology, which features the legalistic IJ in the 1st Angels Message. She would call it false light and demand a return to the original and genuine theology of the Three Angels Messages. Only the 2nd Advent was the Judgment Hour in Rev 14: 7.
Ellen White also said that the Adventist Community, at the end of time, would come to their senses and repent because of the discovery of the Laodicean Message, which is the true PAJ. Then they would move forward to embrace the 4th Angels Message, which is the final Adventist message to the world.
Listen to Ellen White:
I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen. I was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the true Witness to the Laodiceans. It will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver of the testimony, and it will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. This straight testimony some will not bear. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.
I saw that the testimony of the true Witness has not been half heeded. The solemn testimony, upon which the destiny of the church hangs, has been lightly esteemed, if not entirely disregarded. This testimony must work deep repentance, and all that truly receive it, will obey it, and be purified…
Some had been shaken out, and left by the way. The careless and indifferent who did not join with those who prized victory and salvation enough to agonize, persevere, and plead for it, did not obtain it, and they were left behind in darkness, and their numbers were immediately made up by others taking hold of the truth, and coming into the ranks.
The Great Controversy, by Ellen G. White, [1858]
While the Denomination has endured a number of great “shakings” and schisms, during both the Battle Creek and Takoma Park eras, there is still a major shaking yet to come. This will not come about because of women’s ordination, or some minor point; but rather, because of the discovery of massive fraud in the White Estate. A fraud so great that it has led the Advent Community far off the Advent Path, which is the Three Angels Messages.
The correction of this fraud will expose the leaders as corrupt hypocrites, and their doctrines as worthless misdirection. This will cause the final shaking, and split the Denomination once again into those that want to defend false tradition and those that want Gospel truth. The present course is not sustainable. The SDA’s are headed for disaster, even as they are also headed for reform.
Unfortunately, genuine Adventist reform has not taken place as yet. The Denomination is corrupt, and the leaders have no plans to tell the truth, much less repent. So long as they have supporters, such as yourself, continuing to embrace SDA myths and false doctrines about the Judgment, Ellen White, and the Three Angels Messages, they will cling to power.
John said: Since you no longer accept the Teachings of the Bible why in fact bother? I wont waste much time here but why do you not try and find something useful to do with your time since what you are attempting will only bring harm to yourselves and others who are too weak and gullible to understand your heresies?
Tom said: The IJ is a cultic doctrine for the gullible and uneducated. There is no such doctrine in the Bible, much less in the early history of the Advent Movement. Which is why no other denomination besides SDA’s has embraced this error.
While you feel the need to brand anyone a heretic that refuses to embrace the IJ, such a closed and cultic attitude does not lead to the discovery of Gospel truth.
The Bible does not teach the IJ. Period! Those that think otherwise are very gullible and misguided. They had better lose their arrogant and legalistic attitudes and take time to seriously study the NT, educating themselves about Gospel doctrine and Adventist eschatology before it is too late.
IJ Cannot Be Defended
Let’s be blunt: it is a waste of time to try and defend or promote the IJ. It cannot be done. In fact, to prove the point, I had a brief encounter with a self-proclaimed IJ expert from Australia. He claimed he could refute Dr. Ford and prove the IJ true. Although we were scheduled for an Online debate at the ATomorrow site, he quickly RAN AWAY once he saw the mountain of evidence that proved him wrong.
Read the account and see for yourself. Watch as this IJ expert ran away, refusing to answer my questions or address the evidence that proved him wrong.
IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173
Here are 7 irrefutable points that disprove the IJ. Read them and understand that the first point ALONE, destroys this false doctrine.
Let everyone understand while the genuine and historic Three Angels Messages do stand for eschatological truth, the IJ does not. It is not a “pillar,” but a fraud. The IJ leads to a false and worthless view of the Three Angels Messages. Those that embrace it are delusional and lost.
** The IJ & 7 Irrefutable points **
1. Jesus does not support the SDA interpretation of Dan 8:14; He embraces another view, (Hanukkah) which all that follow Christ must also embrace.
2. The Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church cannot be in the OT or the book of Daniel. If the PAJ exists at all, which it does, it must be found in the NT. Only the NT can define Gospel doctrine for the church, not the OT.
3. The PAJ of the last church is found in Rev 3: 14. It is not found in the OT book of Daniel as the SDA’s claim. Here is the true doctrine of the Pre-Advent Judgment, which applies to every church and denomination today, including the SDA’s!
4. Neither the OT nor the NT supports a “Celestial Judgment” to examine the believer’s sanctification. There is no such Judgment in the Bible. The IJ is an error, and no amount of double-talk from the SDA’s can change the theological or historical facts.
5. No serious scholars or historians support the IJ, nor has any church or denomination ever embraced this teaching, except for the SDA’s, and most of them now repudiate it, including their best scholars, like Dr. Ford and Raymond Cottrell. The SDA’s are being very dishonest to pretend otherwise.
6. While Traditional, Takoma Park Adventism defines the IJ as a fundamental “pillar” of the Advent Movement, anchored in Rev 14: 7. This was never true. Not one Pioneer, including Ellen White or Uriah Smith made such a claim. In fact, there is no such “pillar” in any of the Three Angels Messages, nor is this doctrine the reason why Adventists exist, as many have been indoctrinated.
The doctrine of the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment is the reason why the Advent Movement came into existence. Rev 14: 7 was only interpreted as being the Judgment of the 2nd Coming. The later developing IJ, (1857) had zero to do with the doctrinal development of any the Three Angels Messages, which pillars had already been erected by 1847.
7. The doctrine of the IJ is associated with long list of additional false, legalistic doctrines from the SDA’s, such as tithing, OC Sabbath keeping, Jewish food laws and perfectionism, just to name a few. It is not a stand-alone error, but one of many false doctrines.
The IJ repudiates the Gospel and marginalizes the 2nd Coming, which is the real Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message. It refutes the Gospel and the Foundational pillars of Historic Adventism, which means it must be repudiated by anyone who claims to embrace the Three Angels Messages.
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John, these 7 points will stand the test of time. They are solid and irrefutable. I welcome online discussion with any SDA Pastor or scholar that would care to try and defend the IJ. A number of years Clifford Goldstein took up this challenge. But he too slinked away in humiliation and defeat because the IJ cannot be defended. It is false doctrine.
The problem with the modern SDA’s is that they no longer know how to read or study the Bible. They use a worthless proof texting method that is designed to make the Bible say what they want it to say.
Moreover, they have also hidden and manipulated the writings of Ellen White, making her say what they want to hear. But it has all backfired as millions have left the church in disgust. Adventist doctrine no longer makes any sense, which is why it is dying.
The modern Adventists have become cultic and dishonest; obsessed with false doctrine and money. Their only hope is to repent and return to the original theology of the Three Angels Messages.
Ezek. 12:2 “Son of man, you live in the midst of the rebellious house, who have eyes to see but do not see, ears to hear but do not hear; for they are a rebellious house.
The Adventists today are wasting their time trying to promote the IJ. It is not the foundation of the Advent Movement, much less the real PAJ for the last church. Rather, it is a fraud, a false and fatal doctrine that has destroyed the original paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, changing it into worthless fiction.
Rev. 3:3 ‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Today, few Adventists in North America believe in this legalistic, cultic, nonsense anymore, much less in Sunday laws, which are based on a false view of the 7th day Sabbath. The SDA’s have made fools of themselves. They seem blind, unable to understand what has taken place.
At some point, the Adventists need to wake up and return to their foundational truths, removing any and all false doctrine in the process; starting with the IJ. This interloper must be removed so that the original Three Angels Messages can be restored, allowing the Denomination to move forward to develop and proclaim the 4th and final Adventist Message.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform and All Experts.Com
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John, a blind IJ defender cannot comprehend that the doctrine of the IJ is NOT located in the 1st Angels Message, in Rev 14: 7. This is the opposite of what he and all modern SDA's have been taught. Choosing tradition over truth, he trys to defend the IJ, regardless of the fact that it was never located there by any of the Advent Pioneers, including Ellen White.
Those that support the IJ are blind to the facts of church history and to the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Although John was unable to refute the evidence against the IJ, much less make his own case, he still refuses to beleive what Tom Norris wrote about the IJ and the 1st Angels Message. As a result, he made the following rating on the AllExperts.com site:
Knowledgeability - 1
Clarity of response - 1
Politeness - 1
Nomination - No
Prestige Point - 0
John Commented: - Sorry Mr Norris, but the only reason I rated you a 1, is simply because the zero option was not available.
Reason being that it is not arrogance to maintain the teachings of the Bible which you are fighting.
So, are you an expert? I don't know.
Is there such a thing as an expert apostate?
I so wish you would find yourself back on the track of truth but that is entirely up to you.
John,
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The IJ Fraud
John, I am sorry you think the facts I presented about the IJ / PAJ are untrue. They are not. Rather, you have been badly misled by your religious leaders into believing a false view of Adventist history and theology.
Gal. 4:16 So have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?
What has been taught by the modern SDA church about Ellen White’s view of the IJ and the Three Angels Messages is flat out false, absurd, and impossible. The White Estate has misled millions, and you are one of them.
Don’t shoot the messenger; rather, look to the facts and at those that have misled you all these years.
Although the modern SDA’s have elevated Ellen White and given her biblical authority, like that of an Old Covenant prophet or New Covenant apostle, they have also hidden, manipulated, and repudiated her real views. As a result of such hypocrisy and fraud, they have long ago moved away from the historic prophetic path of the Three Angels Messages. This is why Adventism is dying.
SDA’s today are blind and delusional to think they are following Christ, Ellen White, or the genuine eschatology of the Pioneers. They are not even close. The Jews played these same games of defending their prophets, pretending to honor and follow them, when in fact they were doing no such thing. Jesus called them out for such wretched hypocrisy, and so too does he call out the SDA’s in the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Matt. 23:29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
Matt. 23:30 and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’
Matt. 23:31 “So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
Matt. 23:32 “Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
Matt. 23:33 “You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
The present position of the SDA church about the IJ being a fundamental doctrine from 1844 is false, false, and false. And so too is their claim that Ellen White endorsed such a view. She did not. And neither did any other 19th century SDA. No one in Battle Creek claimed that the IJ was the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. Such are the facts. Such is truth.
Listen again to Ellen White’s comment about the blindness of SDA’s. Try to understand that the Denomination has officially embraced a FALSE version of the Three Angels Messages. They are “ALL WRONG” about the fundamental points that define and empower Adventism, including the Gospel, which they do not understand. They are “all wrong” about the IJ, the Three Angels Messages and Ellen White. The SDA’s are drowning in a sea of error, myth and self-deception, confidently claiming to be correct in all things, when this is not true.
“What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong!”
The modern SDA’s are following a false view of the Three Angels Messages, which is “all wrong.” Not only does Ellen White not support such misdirection and doctrinal absurdity, she makes it clear that no such change to the original Judgment hour interpretation of Rev 14: 7 can ever be made.
Listen to Ellen White:
"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. " {2SM 104.2}
"I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages. Said my accompanying angel, 'Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance.'"
Early Writings of Ellen G. White, 1858, also known as: Spiritual Gifts / and The Great Controversy. page 158, Chapter Title: A Firm Platform.
Let every Adventist understand: the 1844 “Judgment” of the 1st Angels Message was ONLY about the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment and the end of the world. The IJ was never part of the 1st Angels Message, (which is fulfilled prophetic prophecy), much less the reason why the Advent Movement existed. Such modern views are for those that refuse to honestly embrace the simple facts of religious history.
It is time for everyone in the Adventist Community, including the IJ zealots, to face the facts/ truth and stop defending Takoma Park traditions that were never true, and never endorsed by Ellen White, much less by Jesus and the apostles.
The modern Advent Movement has been sidetracked, misdirected, and ruined by the lack of historical and theological honesty. Myths have long ago replaced the facts of history, even as Ellen White’s writings have been hidden and manipulated by the leaders in order to deceive the Adventist Community into following a very false path.
It is time for the Adventist Community to wake up and repent for allowing their incompetent leaders to hide and manipulate Ellen White’s writings, and to confuse and misdirect them into false paths. The Denomination has obviously lost its’ way. They need to repent about the IJ, and many other things, and return to the correct prophetic path, which is the Three Angels Messages.
While you rashly declare Tom Norris and Dr. Ford to be Adventist heretics, you failed to refute the many points that were made against the IJ, much less post anything that would support your view. Calling someone a heretic is not evidence. If the IJ existed as a doctrine in 1844, then you need to show the historic evidence for all to see.
Show us! But there is no evidence to show, because you and the SDA’s today are dead wrong. The IJ / PAJ did not exist in 1844. This FACT is why the IJ cannot be part of the 1st Angels Message. It is impossible. What many today think is solid doctrine and correct Adventism, - is neither. The modern Denomination is self-destructing because they refuse to be honest with the historical evidence and especially the writings of Ellen White.
Mark 7:7 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
John, you have been deceived about the doctrinal development of Adventist eschatology, as well as about Ellen White and her views. Millions have been deceived by the SDA propaganda machine, which includes the White Estate. No wonder Adventism is imploding. This is the result of church leaders promoting one false doctrine after another for generations. This is called brainwashing, and it will only work for so long. At some point, nothing makes sense and all Spirit and mission is lost. Look around. The blind are following the blind, and no forward progress can be made.
Luke 6:39 And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Moreover, if the SDA Pioneers, including Ellen White, went back and inserted the IJ into Rev 14: 7, after 1844, then where is this evidence? When did they do this?
Answer: The Pioneers never inserted the IJ into the interpretation of Rev 14: 7. They would be shocked to find out that the modern SDA’s would embrace such a strange view and that they would allow this legalistic error to ruin and destroy the Advent Movement. They would protest loudly, and so too should we!
So I ask again: Where is the evidence for the IJ being the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message? Answer: There is no such evidence because it never happened. Searching for truth is all about the evidence, not about calling people names and ignoring the evidence.
The one document you posted, Word to the Little Flock, 1847, does not speak about the IJ as you claim. Nor did Ellen White have any visions about the IJ as many think. The only Judgment Ellen White knows from the 1844 era, from the 1st Angels Message, is the 2nd Coming. And she made it clear that this fulfilled prophecy can never be changed. Ever.
So why do SDA’s ignore Ellen White and take the opposite view about the Judgment in Rev 14:7? Why do they think they are following Ellen White and defending historic truth when they are not?
This what happened to the Jews. They became spiritually blind, unable to see truth right in front of them. The SDA’s are acting just like the Jews and for the same legalistic reasons. By seeing only what they want to see, religious people become blind to the Gospel.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
IJ False
It is the voice of a false Christ, a thief, and a stranger that claims the IJ to be fundamental doctrine. Those that follow this satanic voice will be led away from the path of truth, which is the Three Angels Messages. Jesus teaches no such judgment as the IJ, much less in Rev 14:7. Those that follow the genuine Christ of the NT will not embrace such false, legalistic, anti-Gospel doctrine.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
IJ Expert
While it is obvious that you do not have the necessary knowledge or skill set to enter into serious public debate about the IJ, there are those that do. I suggest you find an SDA EXPERT to come online and try to defend the IJ, because you have scored zero points, my friend.
But don’t feel bad. No expert, not even Clifford Goldstein, can come online and save this fatal, Old Covenant based doctrine. He already tried and failed. But he is welcome to try again, and so too anyone that wants to be embarrassed by the facts.
Conclusion
The inability to see Gospel Truth is an epidemic in the last church. This is the same problem that the Jews experienced, and thus they rejected Christ and were destroyed. Laodicea, of which the SDA’s are part, have embraced many myths as if they were true, disregarding whatever facts they don’t like. Such dishonest, self-serving, anti-Gospel behavior is fatal if not corrected.
This is why the real PAJ is demanding that every church and denomination, including the SDA’s, admit their errors and blindness and repent of their many false doctrines. Starting with the IJ and a false version of the Three Angels Messages!
Who is paying attention to Christ and the genuine PAJ of the last church?
Who is paying attention to the real Ellen White of history?
It is time for the Advent Movement to repent and move forward on the correct path of the Three Angels Messages to the 4th Angels Message, which is the last Advent Message.
Luke 14:34 “Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned?
Luke 14:35 “It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
Sanctuary Doctrine Ignored / Tweaked at GC-
Today, the SDA’s are divided and self-destructing because of their incoherent doctrine of the IJ / PAJ. Most Adventists in North America have correctly repudiated this strange and controversial teaching, and thus millions have already left the Denomination, making church growth impossible.
Regardless of the ongoing schism caused by this IJ, the leaders refuse to admit that Glacier View was a disaster, much less that the church is wrong about the Sanctuary doctrine. The leaders think if they can ignore, slander, and marginalize Dr. Ford, that all will be well. But such delusional thinking will not work. The IJ is fatal for the Advent Movement if they cannot make the necessary corrections and move forward.
What Do the Proposed Changes in the Sanctuary Doctrine Mean?
http://atoday.org/what-do-the-proposed- … -mean.html
After reading this article and the discussion thread in AT about the minor changes to the Sanctuary doctrine, it is clear that there is still a serious misunderstanding and disconnect about this 1844 topic. It is also clear that the Denomination has no plans to repent for Glacier View or to return to the original version of the Three Angels Messages.
Here are some observations:
First, it is very strange that it takes three Australians to write one short article about the Investigative Judgment. With so many minds working on this topic, how did they get it so wrong?
In fact, how could a professor at Avondale College co-author a 2700 word article about the Sanctuary debate and not mention Dr. Ford’s name or cite any of his work on this topic. Dr. Ford was the head theologian at this college for many years. Are we supposed to forget this fact and pretend Dr. Ford’s work did not exist? Or that it was so wrong it must be given the silent treatment?
http://diffcon.org/panellists/
It is very wrong and dishonest to misrepresent the issues, which is what is taking place. This article was crafted for propaganda purposes, like most everything from Adventism these days. It does not come close to explaining the real issues, much less reaching any worthwhile conclusions.
When it comes to the Sanctuary doctrine, the SDA leaders are unwilling and unable to openly or honestly face the issues, much less make the necessary corrections. No wonder there is no forward progress. The SDA’s have never been able to honestly and rationally discuss this, or other topics, such as Ellen White or 1888. Which is why they still don’t understand the truth about Dan 8:14 and the PAJ to this very day. Nor do they want to know the real meaning of this passage that makes them look so foolish, divided, and confused.
Dr. Ford is a world-class expert on this subject, and his views have not been honestly articulated in this article or in the following discussion. In fact, his views have been ignored and misstated, mostly by omission. Which is so typical of this dishonest, controlling, Denomination.
Let everyone understand: Dr. Ford’s correct position is this: Antiochus Epiphanes is the little horn. Period!
Regarding the little horn of Daniel 8 and its parallelism in Daniel 11, Dr. Ford holds that "only Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled the chief specifications of Daniel 8's little horn, and the vile person of Daniel 11. All other fulfillments, such as pagan and papal Rome, are fulfillments in principle rather than in detail" (p. 469).
https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archiv … d-document
http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundation/desford.htm
https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/s … logy_0.pdf
Listen to Dr. Ford:
"In his book 1844 Made Simple, Adventist author Clifford Goldstein argues that compared with Persia and Greece, Antiochus was not "exceeding great," and therefore could not have been the little horn of Dan. 8:9.
A careful reading of Dan. 8:9 reveals that the prophecy never says the little horn will be exceeding great in comparison to Persia and Greece. The little horn is not compared with other powers, but merely said to wax "exceeding great" in three regions: to the south, the east, and the pleasant land. Antiochus was not a big horn on a big stage.
He was a little horn that played a big role on a little stage. His conquering of Egypt and his attack against Judaism can certainly be described as "exceeding great" on the stage of Middle Eastern history during this time period.
It can be argued that of all the foes of Judaism, Antiochus Epiphanes came the closest to stamping out the religion. His attack upon Judaism can only be described as "exceeding great."
Listen to Dr. Raymond Cottrell agree with Dr. Ford.
"My first great shocker about the "IJ, Daniel 8:14 and 1844" was when I read a Hallmark Hanukkah Card in a store that explained the entire story about how the FIRST Hanukkah, and how it lasted for 8 days because that's how long the oil lasted that they'd found in the Temple, once they had "cleansed" the Sanctuary" and set it back up for proper worship.
The Jews had even carried OUT every single stone that had been used in the alter because they couldn't take a chance of having a stone in the alter of God that would have such a history of holding up a pig at one time! The Hallmark Card Company had gone to great lengths to tell this story correctly, and they did it!"
And there I was reading the story WELL OVER 2000 years later that fit a part of the puzzle that at one time had me greatly perplexed.
You don't need to go to what "the Christians" think Daniel 8:14 is talking about, but just go to the JEWS who it was written for and ask THEM what the meaning was all about and you'll see that it had nothing to do with 1844, but everything to do with 165 B.C. instead! "
Dr. Raymond Cottrell
http://www.truthorfables.com/Cottrell_I … ection.htm
Dan 8: 14- Error upon Error
Let all SDA’s understand that Dan 8: 14 has gone through 6 (Six) different interpretations. All of them wrong. The 7th and final interpretation has been found: Dan 8: 14 is about the Hanukkah Story. It is not about the 1844 IJ or the PAJ. It is about Hanukkah. Period!
http://scheinerman.net/judaism/chanukah/history.html
http://www.aish.com/chanukahguide/chanu … .asp#histo...
http://www.keeneshops.com/ChanukahGuide/history.asp
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/judaica/hanukkah
http://www.bereansonline.org/outlines/hanukkah.htm
The PAJ of the last church cannot be in the Old Testament. It must be in the NT, and Christ, the Judge of the church must participate. Let the Advent Community understand that the LM is the genuine, New Covenant, PAJ. Rev 3: 14 is the PAJ, not Dan 8: 14. Here is a critical point that will save the Advent Movement from itself.
While all modern SDA’s are taught that “the hour of his judgment” in Rev 14: 7 is the IJ, this was never true. Dr. Ford made it clear that no SDA, including Ellen White, viewed the Judgment in Rev 14: 7 as the IJ. But no one was listening then, and not now. But Dr. Ford was correct then and now. Rev 14: 7 does not, not, not, contain any reference to the IJ or the PAJ concept. Only the 2nd Coming is the Judgment in this foundational Adventist passage.
IJ NOT In 1st Angels Message
Let all SDA’s understand: the Advent Movement was not based upon, or defined by, the Little Horn or the IJ, or even a concept about the PAJ. So the point of this article, which is full of error and misdirection, is misplaced and very misleading, even as Glacier View was a farce that is destroying Adventism.
It is the Three Angels Messages that defines, controls, and empowers Adventism, not the doctrine of a heavenly sanctuary or the IJ/PAJ. The Advent Movement is based on the Three Angels Messages and their 7 fundamental doctrines, none of which are the IJ. Misunderstand this core eschatology, and Adventism will self-destruct. Look around. This is what has, and is, taking place.
See also:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … dgment.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ment-1.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … e-once.htm
As for Herb Kersten, he claimed to be able to defend the IJ and prove Dr. Ford wrong. However, this Australian zealot fell flat on his face and ran away, full speed, from a planned discussion about the IJ.
Let all understand, the IJ is so wrong, on so many levels, that it cannot be defended whatsoever. Clifford Goldstein has also tried and failed. He too ran away, humiliated in front of everyone. This is the fate of all that are so foolish as to think myths are the same as facts.
IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173
Lest We Forget: The Pioneer View
Historical facts are very different from worthless propaganda. The present position of the SDA church about the IJ being a fundamental doctrine from 1844 is false, absurd, and impossible. And so too is the claim that Ellen White endorsed such a view. She did not. And neither did Uriah Smith or any 19th century SDA. No one in Battle Creek taught that the IJ was “the Judgment” in the 1st Angels Message. Such are the facts that have long been suppressed and forgotten.
Listen again to Ellen White’s comment about the blindness of SDA’s.
“What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong!”
Let all understand that the Denomination has officially embraced a historically FALSE version of the Three Angels Messages. And a false view of the PAJ as well. The leaders are “ALL WRONG” about the fundamental points that define and empower Adventism, including the Gospel and the New Covenant Sabbath, which they do not fully understand as yet.
The modern SDA’s are “all wrong” about the IJ, the PAJ, the Three Angels Messages and Ellen White, and more. The SDA’s are drowning in a sea of error, myth and self-deception, confidently claiming to be correct in all things, when they are not even close. The Adventists need to listen to Ellen White, not hide and manipulate her writings.
White Estate Hides Documents
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … Estate.htm
The modern SDA’s are following a very false view of Adventist history and theology, including the Three Angels Messages. Not only does Ellen White not support such misdirection and doctrinal error, she makes it clear that no such change to the original Judgment hour interpretation of Rev 14: 7 can ever be made.
Let all understand the impossibility of Ellen White endorsing Glacier View or teaching the IJ is located in the 1st Angels Message. The IJ /PAJ was not imagined until 1858. Which means, there was no such doctrine in 1844. Making the present view impossible and very wrong.
Listen to Ellen White:
"The proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages has been located by the Word of Inspiration. Not a peg or pin is to be removed. No human authority has any more right to change the location of these messages than to substitute the New Testament for the Old. " {2SM 104.2}
"I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages. Said my accompanying angel, 'Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance.'"
Early Writings of Ellen G. White, 1858, also known as: Spiritual Gifts / and The Great Controversy. Page 158, Chapter Title: A Firm Platform.
Let every Adventist understand: the 1844 “Judgment” of the 1st Angels Message was ONLY about the 2nd Coming as the Day of Judgment and the end of the world. The IJ was never part of the 1st Angels Message, (which is fulfilled prophetic prophecy), much less the reason why the Advent Movement existed. Such modern views are for those that refuse to honestly embrace the simple facts of religious history.
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
The Way Forward
It is time for everyone in the Adventist Community, including the IJ zealots, to face the facts/ truth and stop defending Takoma Park traditions that were never true, and never endorsed by Ellen White, much less by Jesus and the apostles.
The modern Advent Movement has been sidetracked, misdirected, and ruined by the lack of historical and theological honesty. Myths have long ago replaced the facts of history, even as Ellen White’s writings have been hidden and manipulated by the leaders in order to deceive the Adventist Community into following a very false path.
It is time for the Adventist Community to wake up and repent for allowing their incompetent leaders to hide and manipulate Ellen White’s writings, and to confuse and misdirect them into false, worthless, doctrine.
The Denomination has obviously lost its’ way. Adventists need to repent about the IJ, and many other things, and return to the correct prophetic path, which is the Three Angels Messages. Then they can move forward to the final Advent message, which is the 4th Angels Message.
Matt. 11:15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
Offline
IJ Question
"Still bearing humanity, He ascended to heaven, triumphant and victorious. He has taken the blood of the atonement into the holiest of all, sprinkled it upon the mercy-seat and His own garments, and blessed the people. Soon He will appear the second time to declare that there is no more sacrifice for sin. –
Signs of the Times, April 19, 1905 Paragraph 4
I recently stumbled upon this quote while reading this ebook from Dr. Ford: "Seventh-Day Adventism - The Investigative Judgement And the Everlasting Gospel".
http://dfsda.wpengine.com/wp-content/up … -ebook.pdf
In the quote, Ellen White seems to suggest, if not declare, that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place upon his ascension. Of course other quotes from EGW do not appear to agree but that is not the bigger issue I want to discuss. It seems the traditional view of Adventism has shifted on this issue of when Christ's enters the MHP. (Perhaps in an attempted to marginalize Ford.)
Of course, Cliff Goldstein argues in his "Graffiti In The Holy of Holies", that Christ does not enter the MHP until 1844 to begin the Investigative Judgment. He employed the not so famous "ta hagia" argument to demonstrate his position.
However what I am truly after is whether or not our pioneers (Edson, Smith, Loughborough, Crossier, Mr or Mrs White, etc) ever held the view that Christ was restricted to the first apartment until 1844?
Was there at least the implied idea that Jesus either could not, or would not, enter the MHP to compete His atoning work until 1844 by those who first articulated the Sanctuary doctrine as we understand it now?
The reason I ask this is because the new shift I have encountered is that Jesus did indeed enter the MHP at the ascension and that this verity has no bearing on the critiques of the IJ doctrine.
Does the aforementioned quote from EGW represent a departure from an old established traditional view or is it somehow still harmonious?
Marvin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Norris responds:
Today, few correctly understand the theological development of the SDA’s, least of all when and how the IJ was invented. Moreover, the issues about the IJ are much more complex than when Jesus entered the Most Holy Place.
First, the SDA’s always thought that Jesus entered the MHP in 1844. This is how they dealt with the great disappointment. They never changed this view, even though you may hear otherwise from those today trying to defend the IJ.
To correctly understand the IJ, which is also known as the Pre-Advent Judgment of the church, it must be viewed within its’ proper historical framework. This framework is the development of the Three Angels Messages, which is an eschatological paradigm that governs all SDA doctrine and mission.
Unfortunately, modern Adventists are taught to think the IJ is a doctrinal pillar located in the 1st Angels Message of Rev 14. Thus to challenge or remove it, is to repudiate the foundation of the Three Angels Messages as well as to reject Ellen White’s apocalyptic views. But this is not true. What the SDA’s teach today about the IJ is not a view held by any of the Pioneers. None of them taught that the IJ was located in the 1st Angels Message at any time. Nor would any of them embrace this impossible viewpoint.
Let’s set the record straight about the Judgment in the Rev 14.7 as understood by the Pioneers, including Ellen White. Did the early SDA’s teach that the IJ was located in the 1st Angels Message, as all modern SDA’s have been taught? And as all critics also claim? Or is this official position only myth and legalistic propaganda?
What did the Adventist Pioneers traditionally believe on this point? This is the real question that must be addressed. The answer is stunning and paradigm shifting.
To be clear; there is no doctrine of the IJ located in the 1st Angels Message as the modern SDA’s teach. There never was. This official view of church history is flat out false and very misleading. But yet, both the modern SDA’s and their many critics are laboring under this very false view about the IJ and the Three Angels Messages.
While all sides assume the IJ in Dan 8: 14 was viewed by the Pioneers as fundamental SDA eschatology, linked to Rev 14.7, it is not true. No 19th century SDA, including Edson, Bates, Ellen or James White, or Uriah Smith, taught that the IJ was located in the 1st Angels Message. The “hour of his judgment has come” was only a reference to the 2nd Coming of Christ in SDA eschatology. Period!
Moreover, Ellen White makes it clear that once a “message” is over, it is fulfilled prophecy that cannot be changed. Thus there was never any contemplation to revise Miller’s Judgment hour Message in Rev 14: 7, which was all about the 2nd Coming and change it to mean the IJ. While the Takoma Park SDA’s taught such theology, it was pure myth and misdirection that has ruined the Advent Movement.
Ellen White never moved away from Miller’s fundamental definition of the 1st Angels Message. None of the SDA Pioneers taught that the IJ was the “judgment” under discussion in Rev 14.7. They all knew better and so too, should we today. But this is not what history shows happened. The SDA’s allowed themselves to believe myths and legends that have destroyed Adventism.
While the SDA’s claim to follow the Three Angels Messages, as defined by the Pioneers, the facts show otherwise. Not only do they teach a very wrong definition, they also misunderstand the historical development of the IJ, which is a legalistic error associated with the 3rd Angels Message, not the 1st.
When the Takoma Park apologists incorrectly inserted the IJ into the 1st Angels Messages, making it a fundamental and historical “pillar,” they doomed the modern SDA’s into following a counterfeit eschatology that has no endorsement from any of the Pioneers, especially Ellen White. This is why the SDA’s are so confused, legalistic, and dysfunctional. They have been following a very false and worthless path. Adventism cannot function very well without the Three A’s. It will eventually collapse, and this is what is taking place for all to see.
To better understand this point, here is some chronological context: The start date for the 1st Angels Message is 1818, when Miller discovered this prophetic passage in Rev 14. The end date is the Spring of 1844, when Christ did not return as predicted. The IJ did not exist in 1844 or even 1854. It was not invented until 1857, and not codified until the 1870’s.
So how could the IJ possibly become a theological point earlier, when it did not exist? It is not possible.
Uriah Smith associated the IJ with the 3rd Angels Message, not with the 1st, which had terminated and closed years before the IJ was invented. Thus the facts are very different from what modern SDA’s have been taught to believe. The IJ is not a “pillar” as the church teaches today, much less in the 1st Angels Message.
The IJ is not the foundation of the Advent Movement, nor did it even exist in the timeframe of the 1st Angels Message. It is great error.
According to Ellen White, and all the 19th century Adventists, the only Judgment pillar in the 1st Angels Message is the 2nd Coming. This is what made the Adventists famous. This is why they are called “Adventists.” They were all about the 2nd Coming as the great Judgment Day and the end of the world.
Dr. Ford was correct all along. He tried to explain these simple facts to the church leaders, but they hated the Gospel and refused to hear. They were such legalists that they elevated the IJ as a great doctrine and falsified Adventist history in the process; forcing all to bow down to this pernicious IJ myth that is destroying the Advent Movement.
The modern SDA’s have confused themselves and everyone else in a futile attempt to defend the IJ. Glacier View only made things worse as the leaders blindly supported Uriah Smith’s legalistic views, even as they hid documents in the White Estate to cover up Ellen White’s opposing viewpoints.
The SDA’s today are very dishonest, which is too bad, because they do have some very important eschatology that needs to be updated.
Moreover, Ellen White has much to say to all SDA’s. Her voice has been manipulated and silenced for far too long. Unless the SDA’s repent for so much false doctrine and manipulated history, and return to the original paradigm of the Three Angels Messages, they are doomed.
The Advent Movement is already dying. Millions have left them, and more leave every day because people understand that the Bible does not teach the IJ and many other false doctrines that the SDA’s teach. The SDA’s are an Old Covenant denomination when they should be New Covenant.
Here is a quick survey of how Dan 8: 14 and the IJ has been revised and changed over the years:
The Changing Sanctuary Doctrine-1818 to present
While many SDA's think the Sanctuary/IJ/PAJ doctrine is an important fundamental that must be preserved at all costs, the facts are very different.
No Adventist teaching associated with Dan 8:14 has ever been "solid" or fully correct at any time. From the very beginning of the Adventist Movement, there has ALWAYS been serious error with the Sanctuary doctrine. Which is why Dan 8.14 has been changed and revised so many times. And why it is still so wrong today.
First Two Interpretations of Daniel 8:14
From the very first attempt to understand Dan 8:14, Miller had the doctrine wrong when he declared that the Sanctuary was the earth to be "cleansed by fire" at the Judgment of the Second Coming. When this event failed to take place, other Adventists, against his advice, revised the date for this "Sanctuary Cleansing" by proclaiming the end of the world on October 22, 1844.
This was the first revision to Dan 8:14. And it soon proved to be as wrong as Miller’s initial interpretation. The expected Day of Judgment and the end of the world never took place.
Third Interpretation of Dan 8:14: The Heavenly Sanctuary Cleansed, -Not the Earth. Hiram Edson.
Following the Great Disappointment of October 1844, the two previous Sanctuary positions were declared to be erroneous. Dan 8:14 was dramatically re-interpreted by the SDA Pioneers to mean that the Heavenly Sanctuary was to be "cleansed" of sin prior to the Second Advent, NOT the Earth by fire, as Miller taught. But even so, this early view was not the IJ, which would not be invented until 1857.
The SDA Pioneers teach that Jesus went into the Most Holy Place on October 22, 1844, instead of cleansing the earth with fire, as Miller taught. Edson first promoted this corrective view. However, this was NOT the IJ or even the concept of a Pre-Advent Judgment. There were no books being opened, much less a judgment of the saints taking place. Such views would come later.
Hiram Edson
http://www.aplib.org/?page_id=338
Ellen White wrote: “I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down...Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. ..” Early Writings, page 55.
By 1845 there had been THREE revisions of Dan 8:14, and there were at least THREE more to come. Why? Because this process of error and reinterpretation would continue well into the 20th, and even the 21st century.
In fact, there was never a time within the history of the Adventist Movement when Dan 8:14 and the Sanctuary doctrine was without error or debate. Even today, the IJ is very controversial, wrong, and polarizing. Few realize how many times this dubious doctrine has been adjusted, revised, and changed over the years. The IJ is a doctrine of sand, not a solid pillar of theology, like the 2nd Coming, which it has displaced.
Fourth Revision of Dan 8: 14; in Battle Creek, Michigan- The Investigative Judgment
As the Adventist Movement went forward after the Millerite disappointment, the Battle Creek SDA's, in the late 1850's, made further revisions to the Sanctuary Doctrine. Here is the original IJ from Uriah Smith. This FOURTH revision added the concept of a Celestial Judgment of the saints to Edson’s generic teaching about the "Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary."
This is when the legalistic teaching that the individual characters of the saints would be judged to see if they were good enough to be saved. Uriah Smith also taught that the atonement was not complete at this point, because the IJ had not been fully completed. The IJ would also become known as the Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church. Prior to the 1850’s, there was no concept of a PAJ or IJ.
This FOURTH revision slowly developed within Battle Creek and became famous, thanks primarily to Uriah Smith, the long time Review Editor. He is the champion of the IJ, even writing a large book in the 1870’s that detailed this evolving and unique SDA doctrine. Only in the late 20th century did this doctrine come under debate. It was a minor doctrine for the Battle Creek SDA’s, as compared to the Sabbath.
Uriah Smith’s doctrine of the IJ was an extremely legalistic teaching that was very different from the earlier (Third) doctrine of "the Cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary." However, at no time did Edson or Uriah Smith teach that the IJ was linked to the Judgment in the 1st Angels Message. It was only connected with the 3rd Angels Message, never to the 1st.
The FIFTH IJ Revision in Takoma Park
Following the great 1888 Battle Creek schism and the relocation of the denomination to Takoma Park, the Sanctuary Doctrine would not remain static. It would soon undergo its FIFTH revision; a change, which would never have been approved by Edson, Uriah Smith, Ellen White, or any of the Pioneers.
Surprisingly, the Takoma Park apologists began to incorrectly teach that the IJ was anchored in the 1st Angels Message of Rev 14: 7. They taught that this “judgment hour” message was the IJ, even claiming that this is what Ellen White believed.
However, this new view was a 20th century fabrication. Although SDA leaders, like Froom and Arthur White, proclaimed the IJ to be part of the 1st Angels Message that could never be challenged or changed, it was not true. The White Estate and the Review promoted so much propaganda on this point, supposedly from Ellen White, that this new and impossible position became normative for all 20th century Adventists.
LeRoy Froom, an Adventist leader wrote that if the church didn't have the Investigative Judgment message that, "One would have no justifiable place in the religious world, no distinctive denominational mission and message, no excuse for functioning as a separate church entity today." Movement of Destiny, p. 542.
http://www.truthorfables.com/investigat … simple.htm
Today, it is assumed by both the SDA’s, and their critics, that the IJ is located in Rev 14.7. But yet, no Pioneers teach this point, least of all Ellen White. It is totally false. Thus generations of modern Adventists have been deceived by their SDA leaders on this critical point. And the scam continues to this very day.
Ellen White would never approve of the doctrine of the IJ as taught by the church in the 20th or 21st centuries. She would have condemned Glacier View and defended Dr. Ford just as she had done with EJ Waggoner in the 1888 debates. She would also have been shocked that the White Estate would so flagrantly misrepresent her views about the 1st Angels Message and the IJ, outraged that that they would use her name to promote false doctrine that she never endorsed.
This incorrect and legalistic position about the IJ has had dire consequences for modern Adventists. It has fractured and stalled this eschatological movement because it elevated the IJ into the status of a "Pillar" that was unknown to the Battle Creek Pioneers, even as it subordinated the great pillar of the 2nd Coming.
In short, the IJ has ruined the modern Advent Movement, turning it into a denomination that focused on personal behavior and legalism instead of the Protestant Gospel and the 2nd Coming.
Those, like Dr. Ford, that would not accept the many failed revisions of Dan 8:14, would be ostracized from the Adventist Movement and considered traitors. But the fact of the matter is this: the SDA’s went to war to protect a false version of the 1st Angels Message, and a false view of the Gospel, as well as false view of Ellen White. Pity.
After Glacier View in 1980, the 5th revision to Sanctuary doctrine became part of the new official Creed called the 27 Fundamentals. This Takoma Park error created great confusion and controversy that has effectively derailed the modern Adventist Movement.
In fact, the outcome of Glacier View created such a major schism within the Adventist Community that it precipitated a massive exodus from the church unparalleled since the Battle Creek debacle at the turn of the 20th century. Millions left, and more leave all the time.
With such a large IJ backlash taking place, it didn't take long for the leaders to realize they had made a serious mistake by elevating and enforcing Uriah Smith’s legalistic views. Therefore they went to work to make more adjustments to the ever-changing Sanctuary doctrine. They would now try to make it seem more Gospel friendly, even as they still pretended it was sourced in the 1st Angels Message, when that point was never true.
The SIXTH, Post-Glacier View Revision; Silver Spring, Md.
Glacier View was an instant disaster for the SDA’s. This is where Dr. Ford debunked the IJ and declared that Jesus had entered the Most Holy Place directly after his Ascension. Not in 1844. Such a correct, New Covenant position stunned the church, even as Dr. Ford explained that the Pioneers never viewed the IJ as if it were “the judgment pillar” located in the 1st Angels Message. But the leaders refused to believe the facts or repent for their obsession with 1844. Or with their gross legalism that underscored this false doctrine.
Notwithstanding the exile of Dr. Ford in 1980, the Adventist leaders quickly realized that the IJ was not sustainable or defendable. While they understood that Dr. Ford’s view of the Gospel was clearly more popular than Uriah Smiths doctrine of the IJ, they wanted to find a way to keep both. Thus the leaders tried, once again, to reconfigure Dan 8: 14, making it sound more Gospel friendly. This would be the 6th revision.
The post Glacier View leaders now declared that Dan 8: 14 was not about who was "good enough" to be saved--but rather--who had saving faith in Christ. Such a spin does not represent the original Battle Creek doctrine of the IJ, nor does it make any theological sense. It is just more double-talk from those that refuse to repent for false doctrine.
Instead of the saints and their characters being on trial, as Uriah Smith taught, the SIXTH version placed God on trial, claiming that he needed to prove that he was just and fair to the universe.
Uriah Smith would not have supported this revised position any more than he would have supported the fifth version that had also incorrectly placed the IJ in the 1st Angels Message. But regardless, this new, post Glacier View spin about the Sanctuary/IJ/PAJ is being promoted by the Denomination today, along with some additional claims, as if Glacier View had never taken place. And it is this 6th and latest version that is being presented to the church through the Review and the Sabbath School lessons.
The strategy to promote the sixth IJ revision required a new policy, which the leaders called "pluralism." This stunt allowed the divided Denomination to embrace either the fifth or the more recent and Gospel friendly, sixth version of the Sanctuary/IJ/ PAJ doctrine.
Such a compromise was designed to stop the post Glacier View schism and allow the church to move forward without having to admit that they had been wrong about Dan 8:14, or Glacier View, or anything. Instead of repenting for the error of the IJ, and locating the correct Pre- Advent Judgment in the New Testament, the leaders continued to craft propaganda rather than apologize to Dr. Ford.
Today, after SIX versions of Dan 8:14, no one should be under any illusion that the Sanctuary/IJ/PAJ doctrine is solid or unchangeable, much less correct. As if it has not undergone numerous and repeated revisions that has dramatically changed its’ meaning over time. The fact of the matter is that Dan 8:14 is the most problematic, revised, and controversial doctrine in the SDA church. Unless this passage is correctly resolved, the SDA’s are doomed.
Few today correctly understand the complex and checkered history of the Sanctuary doctrine. The IJ has brought great perplexity and schism to modern Adventism and it has to be honestly addressed and resolved. The IJ/ PAJ is ruining the Advent Movement. This false and impossible doctrine must be exposed for what it is, and removed, if the Advent Movement plans to return to the original Three Angels Messages.
Today, the failure to correctly understand Dan 8: 14 and the Three angles Message of Rev 14 is destroying the Advent Movement. The confusion and error over the concept of the Pre-Advent Judgment has left the SDA church mired in theological chaos and endless schism that will never be resolved until the Seventh and final interpretation of the PAJ emerges.
As the world becomes more fearful of an apocalyptic event, the Adventists have nothing worthwhile to say. They have no Gospel based eschatology at the very time when one is needed. How strange? They have misunderstood the very Judgment in Rev 14 that gave them birth, repudiating the Three Angels Message in the process. What a great mistake they have made.
It is time for the Adventist Community to understand the truth about Dan 8:14 and the Three Angels Messages. The Gospel meaning of the Pre-Advent Judgment is a very different doctrine from what the confused SDA’s have taught. The sooner they become honest, apologizing to Dr. Ford, the better for the Advent Movement.
As for Clifford Goldstein; he is a paid apologist, thus his loyalty is to defend those that pay his salary. Clifford is neither a scholar nor a historian. He is bought and paid for by the hierarchy. Thus he promotes worthless propaganda and many errors.
The same goes for all that work for the Old Covenant minded SDA’s. Church workers, including Pastors, are not allowed to be theologically open or honest about the IJ, Ellen White, or Adventist history. All are forced to follow a false, Old Covenant style Gospel and embrace a fraudulent, broken version of Adventism that has no support from Ellen White.
The White Estate is the most dishonest. They have promoted a false and manipulated church history, badly misrepresenting Ellen White’s views in the process. Unless they repent and set the record straight, the SDA’s will continue to self-destruct for all to see. This process is already taking place. Few have anything nice to say about Adventism, which is sad, because they invented modern eschatology and thus they have much truth that needs to be better understood.
I hope this answer has helped you better understand the history of the Dan 8.14 and the IJ.
Here is some links for further study:
Desmond Ford's New Book
http://spectrummagazine.org/article/201 … al-adventi
IJ / Pre-Advent Judgment
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … dgment.htm
The Judgment in the 1st Angels Message
http://www.atomorrow.org/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=227
IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.org/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173
The IJ/Pre-Advent Judgment
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ment-1.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ins-ij.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … dgment.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … gative.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ment-1.htm
Gospel regards,
Tom Norris for All Experts.Com & Adventist Reform
Last edited by tom_norris (04-26-16 1:33 pm)
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Question About The Judgment in Daniel 7
As far as current Seventh-day Adventist understanding, Does the Judgment scene in Daniel 7 represent the "investigative" judgment time of the little horn power?
If so, then when did it begin, as well as end when its dominion taken away (verse 26)?
Thank you.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -power.htm
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Tom Norris answers:
NO IJ in Daniel 7
Eschatology is an important component of Gospel theology. However, understanding last day events, in any age, is very difficult, even as the continued delay of the 2nd Coming causes many to lose their focus and hope.
Luke 12:40 “You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect.”
The apostles thought they would see the 2nd Advent and the end of the world in their lifetime. Some in Thessalonica thought they had missed the 2nd Advent. Neither view was correct.
2Th. 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Th. 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Th. 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th. 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
1Th. 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
The early church’s eschatology was primitive, imbued with prophetic symbolism and code words for those that persecuted them. But these details faded away with the next generation’s view of how the world will end. Thus every generation had their own contemporary eschatology, which was soon outdated and proven wrong by history. The world has not come to an end as yet.
1Pet. 5:13 She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark.
Rev. 13:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,
Rev. 13:17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.
Rev. 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
No church or denomination has correctly articulated how the world will actually end, although there have been numerous attempts, especially in the 19th century with the rise of Adventism.
Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.
Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
Although every age fears it may be the last, the end will take place at some point. As it comes near, knowledge is increased and the specifics of the last day events will emerge. Thus ancient prophecy will become clear for those that are paying attention at the end of time. What seemed so certain and correct in the 19th or even 20th century, no longer works within our 21st century knowledge base.
The Adventists have failed to comprehend many things correctly and it is a mistake to think otherwise. Their eschatology needs to be updated and re-positioned for the 21st century.
Dan. 12:4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
The church today lives in the 21st century, not the 19th. Thus we need to understand contemporary, eschatology, not the confused and failed assumptions from the past. Eschatological history, which contains many failed predictions and strange views, is not to be confused with what is actually around the corner. The reality about how the world will end will be very different from what has been incorrectly envisioned.
Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.
Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;
Rev. 18:8 “For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
Rev. 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”
Rev. 7:14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
While there should be no debate that Jesus teaches a great time of trouble prior to the 2nd Advent, the end of our modern world will look very different from what has been envisioned in the past. This is especially true for SDA’s that have so many eschatological points wrong.
While the Advent Movement should be given credit for correcting the 19th century church about the literal and pre-millennial 2nd Coming of Christ, they need to stop defending their many false traditions, like the IJ, as if they were faultless. Rather, they need to repent and develop credible, contemporary Gospel eschatology.
The NT does not support what SDA’s teach about Sunday laws on earth, or the IJ in heaven. Which is to say that SDA eschatology is not fully developed or correct as yet. So they should not only repent, but also update their incorrect views, as should every church in Laodicea.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
As for your specific question about the IJ, here is the passage you referenced:
Dan. 7:8 “While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.
Dan. 7:9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was blaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
Dan. 7:10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
Dan. 7:11 “Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.
According to Adventist teaching, the works of all men and women are written down in "books of record", kept in heaven.
During the Investigative Judgment, these books are opened (as described in Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:12), and the lives of all people both living and dead are examined to establish who has responded to Christ's offer of salvation.[72]
"The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment." "
As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated."[73]
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Investigative_judgment
The SDA teaching of the Investigative Judgment is a very misunderstood, confusing, and impossible doctrine. While it made some sense in the mid 19th century to handful of former Millerites, it no longer has any theological credibility today. None. It was false eschatology when invented in 1857, and it is still false doctrine today. Which is why no other denomination has embraced this legalistic error, which is not taught in the Bible.
Pre-Advent Judgment of the Saints:
One of the many errors associated with the IJ, is the claim that the saints are to be examined and judged, in deep space, starting in 1844. If true, this is not what is taking place in Dan 7. A close look shows that the saints are not being judged whatsoever. Rather it is their enemy that is under examination and judgment.
So this passage in Dan 7 does not fit with the basic alleged concept of the IJ. And neither does any other passage, like Dan 8:14, that has been associated with this worthless and confused eschatology.
Let’s be blunt: There is no Celestial Judgment of the Saints taking place in deep space, as the SDA’s alone claim. Much less one that started in 1844. The book of Daniel does not teach this, nor does Jesus or his Apostles.
Such failed and outdated 19th century positions are not true or acceptable for the 21st century church. Time and the increasing amount of Bible knowledge have proven such errors wrong.
In 1980, Dr. Ford, a world-class SDA theologian, debunked the IJ. He was exiled for telling the truth. Among many other points, he was correct to point out that Dan 7 is not a judgment of the saints. Such a point is fatal, along with many others that could be cited.
Dr. Ford writes;
Daniel 7:9,10 uses apocalyptic imagery for the memory of God, but it should be closely observed that it is the host of Antichrist, not the saints, which is in focus here.
The context clearly has Antichrist at the center and it states that the judgment "shall sit and take away his dominion" (see Daniel 7:26 which immediately follows the account of the wicked deeds of the little horn).
The saints are automatically vindicated as their oppressors are condemned. Apocalyptic always has as its heart, the vindication of the faithful through condemnation of their enemies. Thus Revelation 18:10 explains Revelation 14:6. Both verses deal with judgment on wicked Babylon, not believers in the gospel.
http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … llowup.cfm
As far as the little horn is concerned, it is Antiochus Epiphanes.
Regarding the little horn of Daniel 8 and its parallelism in Daniel 11, Dr. Ford holds that "only Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled the chief specifications of Daniel 8's little horn, and the vile person of Daniel 11. All other fulfillments, such as pagan and papal Rome, are fulfillments in principle rather than in detail" (Glacier View document p. 469).
Listen again to Dr. Ford:
In his book 1844 Made Simple, Adventist author Clifford Goldstein argues that compared with Persia and Greece, Antiochus was not "exceeding great," and therefore could not have been the little horn of Dan. 8:9.
A careful reading of Dan. 8:9 reveals that the prophecy never says the little horn will be exceeding great in comparison to Persia and Greece. The little horn is not compared with other powers, but merely said to wax "exceeding great" in three regions: to the south, the east, and the pleasant land. Antiochus was not a big horn on a big stage.
He was a little horn that played a big role on a little stage. His conquering of Egypt and his attack against Judaism can certainly be described as "exceeding great" on the stage of Middle Eastern history during this time period.
It can be argued that of all the foes of Judaism, Antiochus Epiphanes came the closest to stamping out the religion. His attack upon Judaism can only be described as "exceeding great.
Listen to Dr. Raymond Cottrell agree with Dr. Ford.
"My first great shocker about the "IJ, Daniel 8:14 and 1844" was when I read a Hallmark Hanukkah Card in a store that explained the entire story about how the FIRST Hanukkah, and how it lasted for 8 days because that's how long the oil lasted that they'd found in the Temple, once they had "cleansed" the Sanctuary" and set it back up for proper worship.
The Jews had even carried OUT every single stone that had been used in the alter because they couldn't take a chance of having a stone in the alter of God that would have such a history of holding up a pig at one time! The Hallmark Card Company had gone to great lengths to tell this story correctly, and they did it!"
And there I was reading the story WELL OVER 2000 years later that fit a part of the puzzle that at one time had me greatly perplexed.
You don't need to go to what "the Christians" think Daniel 8:14 is talking about, but just go to the JEWS who it was written for and ask THEM what the meaning was all about and you'll see that it had nothing to do with 1844, but everything to do with 165 B.C. instead! "
Dr. Raymond Cottrell
http://www.truthorfables.com/Cottrell_I … ection.htm
1844 & Dan 8: 14- Error upon Error:
Let all SDA’s understand that Dan 8: 14 has gone through 6 (Six) different interpretations. All of them wrong. The 7th and final interpretation has been found. It is the Hanukkah Story.
Dan 8:14 was NEVER about 1844 or the IJ as the Pre-Advent Judgment of the Church. It is about the Hanukkah Story. Period! Silly Gentiles. All they had to do was ask the Jews. The Old Testament is their history, not ours.
http://scheinerman.net/judaism/chanukah/history.html
http://www.jewsforjesus.org/judaica/hanukkah
http://www.bereansonline.org/outlines/hanukkah.htm
See also:
Doctrine determined by faulty hermeneutics: by
Desmond Ford
http://www.lifeassuranceministries.org/ … dford.html
Investigative judgment made simple: By Robert K. Sanders
http://www.truthorfables.com/investigat … simple.htm
214 QUESTIONS ON THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT DOCTRINE OF SDAS: By Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/sda/id53.html
The Development of the Concept of the Investigative or Pre-Advent Judgment
http://www.presenttruthmag.com/7dayadve … 844/8.html
It is time for the Advent Movement to repent for the error of the IJ and apologize to Dr. Ford. This admission will allow for credible Gospel Reform to take place, including the development of updated, 21st century eschatology. The New Covenant must be the basis for all Christian doctrine and prophecy.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform and All Experts.Com
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