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Bob2 said: Tom, once again you skirt every issue. You may think you are slick, but in reality you know you are not or you would have admitted that 25% isn't in the quoted verses.
Tom said: You misunderstand Jesus. He is speaking about four categories of people, which represent 100% of the possible total. This would mean that each category equals 25%. This is not a difficult math problem.
Here is some more Gospel math.
Jesus healed 10 lepers. But only one came back to say thank you. What percentage came back? Answer: 10%.
Luke 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, “Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine — where are they?
Here is another Gospel equation that shows 50% of a group being saved at the end of time. This might mean that more than 25% will be saved out of Laodicea, double the normal 25%. But it is hard to view 50% as being “few.”
Matt. 25:1 “Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Matt. 25:2 “Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.
Gospel math is not difficult.
Bob2 said: There may have been 40% in one category, 30% in one 22% in one and 8% in one. Jesus didn't say, so how can you know. See what I mean, you are not reliable.
Tom said: There is no need to get out a calculator to understand Jesus. He only uses four categories of people, with four different reactions to the Gospel. Only one in four (people) represent the saved. This equals 25%, while the unsaved is 75%. Very simple.
And guess what? Those who received the Gospel, the 25%, brought forth a harvest of 30x, 60x, and even a “hundredfold.” So the minority carries the entire load and gets the job done, while the majority does nothing worthwhile.
Matt. 13:23 “And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”
There should be no debate about Jesus meaning, at least not for the 25% that have the Spirit and understand the Gospel.
The seed is the constant, and only one category out of four produces “Gospel fruit.” One in four equals 25%.
http://gbcdecatur.org/sermons/Sower.html
Luke 8:8 “Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.” As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Those who refuse to hear the Gospel correctly, preferring instead to defend their many false doctrines are in great danger. Their ability to comprehend truth will soon become diminished, even as they reach a state of hopeless confusion and darkness.
Luke 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
Let all pay close attention to the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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I looked for the best place to refer to this Adventist Review article and thought here:
ADVENTISTS AND ALCOHOL
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Adventists and Alcohol:
Bob, this is the correct place to post this link about wine in the SDA church. This article shows that the SDA leaders have no intention of following the Gospel when it comes to wine or anything else.
This article is one of defiance and rebellion against the call to repent and embrace Gospel Reform. It is just one more proof that the SDA’s are enemies of the Gospel; corrupt blasphemers and Judaizers, defying not only the Teaching of Christ and the Word, but also history and the latest scientific evidence that proves the many health benefits of wine.
The SDA Church Wrong
Today, millions of people know that the SDA church is full of myth, double-talk and much false doctrine. That is why so many have left, and why the church cannot grow in North America. But yet, the leaders continue to pretend they have no error, even though their propaganda no longer makes sense.
It is amusing to see that the author was “stunned” that anyone would think the SDA church wrong about the use of alcohol. Oh my, the SDA church wrong about doctrine? No. No. It can’t be true… And according to the Review, it is not true. The SDA church has no error. Not about wine, the IJ, or anything else. Such is the position of the modern, self-destructive, Advent Movement.
Listen to the author:
“When is the Seventh-day Adventist Church going to change its position on alcohol use?”
“This question was asked of me during one of my recent itineraries when I had the privilege of speaking at an alcohol symposium, following an Adventist health professionals conference. I was stunned!”
“Studies abound that tout numerous benefits of alcohol consumption on heart health, and many people now are questioning the church’s position of total abstinence when it comes to drinking alcohol. But the simple answer is that the Seventh-day Adventist Church cannot change its stance, because it’s not merely an issue of physical health. So, how should practicing, health-conscious Adventists respond?”
http://www.adventistreview.com/article.php?id=5005
The premise of this article is this: that the church is never wrong about any doctrine. Not about wine, or the PAJ, or the Gospel or the Sabbath, etc.
Consequently, this cultic-minded author concludes the introduction by stating that the SDA church “CANNOT CHANGE its stance.” So much for an objective discussion about the facts.
“But the simple answer is that the Seventh-day Adventist Church cannot change its stance…”
Here is the great problem with SDA church. Like the 1st century Jews, they cannot bring themselves to think they are wrong on any point. They cannot even imagine such a possibility. Which they quickly reject whenever reform is mentioned.
Even though Jesus has judged the last church blind and naked, demanding that they repent, the SDA’s assume he is not talking about their denomination, but all others. After all, unlike the others, they ARE correct. They “cannot change.”
Questioning the Church
This article also underscores the fact that many are unsure about the credibility of what is being taught by the church. That is why it was published in the Review. To try and defend what the church teaches on this point.
In fact, the author admits that “many people now are questioning the church’s position of total abstinence when it comes to drinking alcohol.”
And well they should. Everyone should question everything that is being taught by the SDA’s, because most of it is wrong.
Most all, if not all, in the Adventist Community (including the millions that have left) have serious doubts about many SDA doctrines. And wine is no exception.
The fact that the church continues to pretend they have no error is beyond disappointing. It speaks volumes about the dishonesty and corruption of the modern Advent Movement. It shows that they have no plans to repent of their legalism and false doctrines, much less embrace Gospel Reform.
Abstinence Clouds the Mind & Hurts our Health
After determining that the church is not wrong and cannot change, the author promises to explain why abstinence is a “well-informed, evidence based, and, most important spiritually sound decision.”
“As a physician I understand the dilemma, and will seek to clarify the issue in order to help people make a well-informed, evidence-based, and, most important, spiritually sound decision.”
Question: What is this great evidence that will convince all that follow Christ to embrace abstinence? And how would the 1st century Christians have reacted to such logic and doctrine?
SDA Answer: Avoid anything harmful. Especially if it clouds the mind.
There it is; the reason why it is sinful to drink wine. It is harmful to our health and our souls. Listen to this supposedly “well informed” defense of abstinence:
“We should avoid all things harmful, including—perhaps especially—those that cloud the mind and may impair our sensitivity to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, jeopardizing our relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. Although the consumption of alcohol has many significant health risks, the prime reason to abstain remains a spiritually moral one.”
Such reasoning is absurd. No one in the 1st century would have understood nor embraced such a view that turns the Gospel on its head. For the early Christians wine was considered both healthful and spiritual, even as it represented the crucified Christ and Eternal Life.
The apostolic church never taught abstinence, nor is wine in the Bible grape juice as the SDA’s pretend. Anyone who promotes this myth is either incompetent or a deliberate liar.
Mark 7:9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
Gospel Harmful to Health
While the author has determined that we should “avoid anything harmful,” such advice is against the Gospel.
Why?
Because those who taught the Gospel, including Christ, and those who embraced the Gospel, were placing themselves in harms way. They were embracing views that led directly to their own persecution, torture, and often death. Which means that confessing and preaching the Gospel in the 1st century was a most harmful, illegal, and dangerous behavior.
Matt. 5:12 “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
2Cor. 11:25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep.
2Cor. 11:26 I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;
2Cor. 11:27 I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.
Many that embraced the Gospel in the early church, including Jesus who died on the cross, were tortured and killed for their faith. Proving that promoting or accepting the Gospel was the most harmful thing one could do. Persecution is very painful and bad for ones health and well-being. Much more so than drinking wine, which represents the tortured blood of Christ.
Mark 13:9 “But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
So how can such a point of view be used to make wine sinful? Especially when modern science has discovered the facts to be the opposite. Wine is full of numerous health benefits. It is not harmful when used in moderation, and those who say otherwise are not being honest. They have a legalistic agenda that is against the Gospel Story; one that is full of myth and double-talk.
Furthermore, those who follow abstinence are not as healthy as those who don’t. Nor do they show any evidence of clear thinking. In fact, those who promote abstinence are very confused about many things, including and especially spiritual things.
Moreover, anyone who refuses to correctly participate in the Lord’s Supper by drinking real wine, will not be admitted into the Kingdom of God. Thus, those who cling to abstinence are risking Eternal Life. Such is the fatal delusion of false doctrine from the modern day Pharisees.
There is no such Gospel teaching called abstinence. To say that one must avoid anything harmful, especially if it clouds the mind is absurd. From the start of Jesus ministry, he Gospel has proven itself to be very harmful to ones health, even as it is hard to think clearly under the pain of persecution and torture.
So should we avoid the Gospel? We should if the logic of the SDA’s is used.
In fact, Jesus teaches that when persecution comes, we are not to worry about what we will say or how clear we are thinking. The Spirit will give us the right words. No need to make up false doctrines to help God out.
Matt. 10:17 “But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;
Matt. 10:18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
Matt. 10:19 “But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
Matt. 10:20 “For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
The SDA doctrine of abstinence is blasphemous and wrong. It is against the specific and clear Gospel teachings of Christ as well as the history of the Jews and the church and even the latest facts of science. There is no excuse for anyone to embrace such false, absurd, doctrine. Shame on the delusional and blind Adventists, they teach many wrong things, and their view about wine is just one of many errors.
Of course the SDA’s use far more sophisticated propaganda to support abstinence than what was offered in this trite Review article. But at the end of the day, it always comes down to fearing the evils of alcohol; complete with a declaration that God supports abstinence.
Doug Batchelor, of Amazing facts uses all manner of supposedly biblical proofs to defend abstinence. But they are easily shown to be dishonest drivel and gross legalism. Amazing Facts represents the worst of Adventism, and all should be warned about this evil source of worthless and dishonest propaganda.
2Cor. 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
See this wolf misuse the Word, even as he employs the fear of alcoholism to promote abstinence. Such a Jew is a false worker; a wolf in sheep’s clothing that hates the Gospel.
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It is sobering to realize that even 4,300 years later, the sin of Noah is still wrecking families today.
Have we learned nothing? Moderate drinking is not God's answer—abstinence is.
Every alcoholic begins his or her downward path with a “moderate” drink.
The church should never condone or allow that first step by teaching it’s permissible to drink a little wine. Rather, the church should uphold the clear position of the Word of God, knowing that Jesus is the Word made flesh and come to dwell among us.
God’s issue with alcohol is clear, and it always has been. Alcohol is unholy and unclean. Partaking in the worldly drink can only compromise God’s high standards.
If you have a problem with drinking, I invite you to contact Amazing Facts and request our free literature concerning alcohol and the Christian. We have seen thousands freed from alcohol and other addiction by the power of God!
Doug Batchelor, of Amazing Errors, err.. I mean Facts…
http://www.mobxpozd.com/alcohol.html
While I don’t have any problem with alcohol, I do with those who deceive people about Gospel. Amazing Facts stands for all that is wrong with Adventism. Such worthless and evil theology must be thrown out of the Adventist Movement and repudiated by all that want to go forward in Gospel Truth.
While Amazing Facts claims “thousands” have been “freed from alcohol,” due to their legalism, they fail to mention that millions have been freed from cultic Adventism and left the SDA church in spite of their ministry. Millions have come to reject the cultic nonsense and double talk of Traditional Adventism and Amazing Facts, which is a good thing.
Let all understand that the doctrine of abstinence is a legalistic farce, promoted by those who refuse to understand the Gospel.
Bachelor is such a confused and anti-Gospel Jew that he declares wine “unholy” and “unclean,” even a “worldly drink.” Which it never was at any time. Nor did Jesus or the apostles ever make such statements about wine.
But the SDA’s have become so adept at making up doctrines and blaspheming the Gospel that they see nothing wrong with any of their doctrines. This is why they are judged to be “blind” by Christ. They can’t see the Gospel, nor do they want to repent and see thing clearly.
Thus Batchelor repudiates the teachings and behavior of Christ and the church concerning the Lord’s Supper, even as he embraces this SDA myth that wine in the bible was unfermented. Pitiful, and very foolish. Such is the way of Jews; they have a long history of fighting the Gospel and the SDA church has foolishly welcomed these evil men into their community and allowed them to zealously promote legions of false doctrine.
Those who receive Eternal life must first understand the Gospel correctly, even as they must separate from their evil leaders, repenting of their many false doctrines, including this error about abstinence.
Those who follow the genuine Christ will laugh at the legalistic doctrine of abstinence, as well as the OC "schoolmaster" Sabbath and many other things. They will drink real wine with a clear conscience, even as they use this special drink for the Lord’s Supper, repenting for being so wrong about the Gospel.
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, the communion cup is a symbol. Whether fermented or nonfermented fruit of the vine is not the issue. There was no refigeration in Bible times so to make the case you do I feel does not hold and you speak too harshly of your brothers in Christ. IMO.
I had a beloved Professor at Andrews, Dr. Augsberger, who was from Europe where wine was drunk more freely and cooked with as well. He told us that he had to make a decision to where they would buy their wine, remote from campus or in nearby Berrien Springs, MI. He chose close by so he could not be accused of any hypocrisy or attempt to hide what he considered a normal part of his day. Bachelor has made other statements that I believe are his own view, they certainly aren't good pastoral advice. Example: I heard him preach that when your grown up kids, married, come home but do not keep the Sabbath the way the member does, Bachelor, suggested they be asked to stay in a hotel for the weekend. Bachelor oversteps on many fronts as did Crews when he was head of Amazing Facts. I think you give them too much credence. Certainly no one is going to be kicked out of the church for moderate drinking of wine. Public DUIs may have to be disciplined by local Church leaders, but the exception rather than the rule.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-29-12 2:55 pm)
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Bob2 said: Tom, the communion cup is a symbol. Whether fermented or nonfermented fruit of the vine is not the issue.
Tom said: Wine (fermented) has been made an eternal symbol of the Gospel by Christ. So it is a very big issue.
Wine is the most important of all Christian symbols, even as it represents Jesus bloody death on the cross. Who has the right to change this symbol and repudiate the teachings of Christ?
The ancient term “fruit of the vine” does not mean non-fermented grape juice. There was no such drink in the ancient world, much less during the spring, when Passover took place.
Wine in the Bible means real, naturally fermented wine. To say otherwise is to misunderstand the scriptures, as well as ancient history, and even the Gospel itself.
So the real issue is about SDA’s dishonestly CHANGING the Gospel teachings of Christ, even as they try to re-write history, pretending that wine in the Bible is grape juice. Anyone who is so dishonest, incompetent, and rebellious is not following the real Christ or the Gospel. They are condemned for cause. Unless they repent of their reckless and worthless views, they are doomed.
Then to make matters worse, these Blind Guides declare God supports their false doctrine, thus making themselves great blasphemers. This is the issue.
The SDA’s are following their own myths and legalistic traditions, not the Gospel or the Word. And they refuse to admit any error, much less repent and believe the genuine Gospel.
Matt. 15:9 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”
1Tim. 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Neither Judaism nor Christianity promoted abstinence. So why do the SDA’s pretend otherwise? This is called blasphemy. There is no such doctrine as abstinence in the NT; any more than there was tithing, the IJ, or OC Sabbath keeping.
So the issue is false doctrine versus truth. Light versus darkness. The true Christ versus a fraud.
John 1:5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 3:19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
But guess what? The SDA’s are in such great darkness after Glacier View, that they no longer use the word “truth.” Although it used to be a self-proclaimed synonym for the SDA church, no Adventist today uses this word, because it makes no sense. There is too much confusion and obvious error.
Bob2 said: There was no refrigeration in Bible times so to make the case you do I feel does not hold and you speak too harshly of your brothers in Christ. IMO.
Tom said: Bingo! There was no such thing as grape juice in the ancient world. Correct. Such a fact condemns the SDA doctrine of abstinence and their dishonest attempts to manipulate the Bible and history.
It also means there is no excuse for anyone in the 21st century to be so brainwashed. All wine in the Bible was fermented. And this is exactly as God intended, designed, and blessed.
If heaven had wanted Jesus to use non-fermented wine as a Gospel symbol, God would have made sure that the Jews knew how to make pasteurized grape juice. But he did not.
The facts are clear that Jesus made and drank real wine, and all who follow him will not pretend otherwise. (The doctrine of abstinence comes from the Koran, not the Bible.)
Anyone that thinks they are wiser than Christ, and that they can ignore what he teaches, for whatever reason, are doomed.
Anyone that thinks they can embrace the Muslim doctrine of abstinence, pretending it comes from God, Christ, and the apostles, are just pretenders, - following a Christ of their own imagination and false traditions.
There was no such thing as grape juice in the ancient world. Period. Wine was always fermented. That was the plan of God, the Creator of all food and drink. In fact, there is not even a word in Hebrew for unfermented grape juice. It did not exist, and nothing that the SDA’s can say will change the facts that prove them wrong. And they need to stop trying.
There is no basis to pretend, or to think that wine is a sinful, unholy and unclean drink, UNLESS one is a Muslim. Abstinence is a very false position for any Christian. It is against the Gospel.
Furthermore, those who follow a false Christ are not my brothers. They are not genuine members of the Kingdom of God. There is only one Christ, and the closer one examines the original, the more it becomes obvious who is following the genuine and who is not.
Thus if anyone has DIFFERENT doctrines from Christ about wine, or the Sabbath, or church organization, or the Judgment, etc, they are not following the historical Christ of the NT. They are blind and naked, just like the real PAJ teaches.
We either follow the teachings of the real Christ or we do not. Too bad the SDA’s have chosen to follow a false Christ, one that would be unrecognizable to anyone in the apostolic church. This is why they are so arrogant and full of false doctrine, employing unbelieving Pharisees like Batchelor.
The SDA’s are following a mythical, hybrid Christ that cannot save them. Let all beware the blind and naked SDA’s. What they do, they do for money, control, and ego. They don’t know Christ or the Gospel.
Bob said: I had a beloved Professor at Andrews, Dr. Augsberger, who was from Europe where wine was drunk more freely and cooked with as well. He told us that he had to make a decision to where they would buy their wine, remote from campus or in nearby Berrien Springs, MI. He chose close by so he could not be accused of any hypocrisy or attempt to hide what he considered a normal part of his day.
Tom said: Good for him to be so honest, and correct. It is those who drink pasteurized grape juice at the Lord’s Supper that should be ashamed. They are arrogant to think that others are great sinners for drinking wine, when in fact; they are the ones guilty for not following Christ on this point.
Luke 16:10 “He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much.
Not only is abstinence a false doctrine, so too most other positions held by such people. Thus there is a long list of false doctrines that are associated with this legalistic view about wine. Abstinence is but one of many false Gospel views embraced by confused Laodiceans. It is no singular error, but part of a systemic, doctrinal failure.
Bob said: Batchelor has made other statements that I believe are his own view, they certainly aren't good pastoral advice.
Tom said: Don’t fool yourself. Amazing Facts is an SDA operation. It is a great propaganda tool for the church. It is not some unofficial ministry operating for its own account. Until the Denomination shuts down this cesspool of false doctrine and legalism,- and repents, there is no hope for these confused, Gospel hating Judaizers.
Bob said: Example: I heard him preach that when your grown up kids, married, come home but do not keep the Sabbath the way the member does, Bachelor, suggested they be asked to stay in a hotel for the weekend.
Tom said: Batchelor is a very confused, SDA Jew. He is following the wicked footsteps of his ancestors who also refused to understand and embrace the active, reformed NC Sabbath of Christ. Doug Batchelor has an Old Covenant mindset, he does not understand, nor does he embrace, the New Covenant Gospel of Christ. Nor does he think he has any doctrinal error.
Doug Batchelor is a typical confused Jew who is blind to the Gospel. Nothing new here. Had he lived in the 1st century, he would have been a great Pharisee, blaspheming the Gospel and persecuting the church.
He would have also condemned Jesus for drinking too much wine and for breaking the Sabbath. This is what Jews do so well, and the SDA’s have a number of them within their ranks.
In conclusion, it is a simple matter to understand what the Bible, and Jesus, teaches about wine, the Sabbath, and most everything else, including the Judgment. These are not hard truths to find in the Word, and thus there will be no excuse for all those who have misunderstood the Gospel. They will be lost.
However, those that earnestly seek for Eternal Life, must be alert and wise so they can understand the Gospel correctly. Those SDA’s who follow their dishonest religious leaders, refusing to repent, are making a fatal mistake. Just like the 1st century Jews.
Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The SDA’s are acting very foolish. They are dead wrong about wine and the Sabbath, as well as the Judgment, tithe, food laws, eschatology, hermeneutics, and on and on the long list goes.
Their view of the Pre Advent Judgment, which was defended by the leaders at Glacier View, is preposterous and absurd, and so too this insane idea that SDA’s have no error. They are full of false doctrine, corruption, and fictionalized church history, and it is time to stop denying what is so obvious and irrefutable.
It is time for all in the Adventist Community to stop pretending that they have no errors-- and repent,- so they can find the Gospel and move forward within the Adventist Apocalyptic.
Today, no one should waste time trying to defend Traditional Adventism. Rather, the Adventist Community needs to repent for 1888 and Glacier View, searching hard for Gospel truth, even as they correct the dishonest record in the White Estate so that they can recover their prophetic bearings.
There should be no doubt that the Adventist Movement needs to repent, and go forward in Gospel truth.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Gospel Reform in the SDA Community
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For all those that believe all references to wine mean fermented wine in the Bible, take note:
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Bob said: For all those that believe all references to wine mean fermented wine in the Bible, take note: (of this link)
Tom said: Those that promote abstinence have developed a very dishonest hermeneutic, even as they have revised the history of the world, pretending that unfermented grape juice was part of 1st century culture.
The SDA’s are not the only ones who misunderstand the Gospel on this point. There are legions of Laodiceans that think drinking wine is a sin, and that abstinence is necessary to please God. So it is easy to find web sites that misunderstand the Gospel and promote the false doctrine of abstinence, and many other errors as well.
But doctrine is not based on popularity; only on the facts of the Word. All must choose to either carefully follow the Gospel facts, or be content to embrace myths, half-truths, and false traditions. This decision is a personal one that each must address for him or herself. And thus the fate of each is set.
John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
Those that follow Christ must not stray from his teaching, regardless if they clash with tradition. The doctrine of abstinence is not based on the Word of God or the teachings of Jesus. Those who think otherwise are not following the genuine Christ of the NT. They are following a legalistic fraud; no doubt one that pays tithe, keeps the Sabbath, and acts superior to others.
Jesus and Wine
The debate about Jesus and wine will never be resolved. There will always be two opposing sides, just as there is about truth versus error.
Those that seek truth will follow the facts, repent, and go on to better understand the Gospel. While those who prefer tradition and error, will stand by their legalistic apologetics and remain in the dark by choice. This is what the Jews did, and so too the SDA’s.
The real Jesus drank wine and instructed his followers to do the same. Those who follow the real Christ cannot embrace abstinence, which is a doctrine from the Koran. Nor will they put up with this false and absurd doctrine that repudiates the teachings of Christ by promoting abstinence.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Here are some typical opposing links. The first group claims that Jesus did NOT drink wine; the second says the opposite. The latter is true, the former false.
Jesus did NOT drink wine:
The “Jesus Drank Wine” Lie
http://www.johnhamelministries.org/wine_lie_Jesus.htm
Alcohol
http://www.thebaptist.org/alcohol.htm
Wine in the Bible
http://bible-christian.org/wine.html
BIBLE WINES LESSON 1
http://focusonfreedom.wordpress.com/bib … -lesson-1/
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Jesus DID drink wine.
Wine and the Bible
http://www.godofcomfort.com/Special_Stu … mented.htm
Does the Bible permit drinking
ANY wine or alcohol?
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/does … cohol.html
Alcohol – What the Bible Really Says
http://www.gci.org/series/alcohol/bible
When it comes to the study of doctrine, let all follow the facts, making certain to use good, reliable sources. Then, after the evidence has been evaluated, make a decision. The correct answer will be simple, obvious, and self-evident. This works for any doctrine, like the Sabbath or tithe, or the Judgment. The facts must determine every point of doctrine.
Bottom line; The SDA’s are wrong about wine. The doctrine of abstinence is against the Gospel. It is a Muslim doctrine. They need to repent for being so foolish and legalistic, and for trying to manipulate the Bible to make it say what they want. This is what they do with all their doctrines, which is why they are shocked when they find out what the Bible really teaches. Then instead of repenting, they try to deny the facts, defend their errors, and persecute those, like Dr. Ford, who teach Gospel truth.
Those who refuse real wine at the Lord’s Supper, thinking grape juice is an acceptable substitute, have repeated the ancient sin of Cain. He too thought he could make up his own religious rules and adjust God’s ceremonies to suit his worldview. But he was wrong, and so too anyone that plays the same trick with the Lord’s Supper.
Heb. 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
Gen. 4:3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground.
Gen. 4:4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;
Gen. 4:5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.
God is not going to have any regard for those Christians that salute the Gospel with grape juice. That is not what Christ taught, and no one in heaven is being fooled by this dishonest manipulation of the most sacred of all Christian rites.
Those who embrace abstinence are following a false Christ and making up their own religious rules, like Cain. No doubt they are doing this with many other doctrines as well. Thus proving that they do not know the genuine Christ or the Gospel.
Drinking pasteurized grape juice to represent the blood of Christ is an unworthy, inaccurate, and manipulated Gospel symbol. It does not comply with the teachings of Christ any more than did Cain’s religious offering, which God rejected.
1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
Those who think they can correct Christ and change or update his teaching on any point, much less about wine and the Lord's Supper, are blind and delusional.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Those that think Christ teaches abstinence, and use grape juice in the Eucharist, will not enter the Kingdom of God. They are following a worthless, false, Christ. Besides, they would not be happy in heaven, where real wine will be served to all.
Matt. 26:29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
The debate about any doctrine is a debate about Christ. Whether it is wine, tithe, or the Sabbath, each doctrine must be understood in the context of the Gospel teachings of Christ. Those who fail to understand and follow the Gospel, which are many, are doomed.
John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
I hope this helps all to see that this debate about wine is more telling and important than it may appear.
Misunderstanding the truth about wine in the Bible will only lead to more error and false doctrine. Conversely, those who have eyes to see the truth on this point, will also be able to understand additional Gospel truth.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Gospel Reform
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Sometimes Tom, it is better to be short in your remarks to get a point across:
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
Tom, you complicate the Gospel, where it needs no complication.
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Bob said: Sometimes Tom, it is better to be short in your remarks to get a point across:
Tom said: Long or short, you always seem to miss the point.
Your proof texting reply is out of context and wrong. Paul is not commenting on the Lord’s Supper, nor in any way trying to settle a modern dispute about whether Christ drank real wine or grape juice. (There was no such dispute in the 1st century).
Bob said: Tom, you complicate the Gospel, where it needs no complication.
Tom said: The Gospel is only complicated for those who don’t want to understand it correctly. And so too this debate about wine.
But alas, this inability to comprehend Gospel doctrine is normative. Only a few, 25%, will be able to hear the Gospel and embrace it as truth. The other 75% will not be able to grasp the teachings of Christ about wine, money, the Judgment, the Sabbath, or anything else. Pity.
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Bottom line: All must decide about Christ. All must choose which Jesus to follow.
Is it the Christ that thunders about abstinence, tithe, and OC Sabbath keeping? Or is it the Christ that refutes these doctrines?
2Cor. 11:4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
All must choose which of the many “Christ’s” to follow. At this point the Laodicean church has chosen a legion of false Christ’s. Which is why the real Christ of scripture declares every church to be blind, naked, and unsaved.
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
They have all embraced a fraudulent Gospel, especially the SDA’s. Their grape juice drinking, tithe paying, Sabbath keeping Christ is fictional and worthless; which is why they need to repent.
John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
The issue about wine is yet another opportunity for those that seek to follow the genuine Christ to move towards the light of Life. It is a simple issue that shows who is honest with the Bible and history, and who is not. The SDA’s have chosen the latter, which is why they must repent.
Luke 11:34 “The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.
Luke 11:35 “Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Gospel Reform
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“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."
Belief in God (there is no such thing as an atheistic Christian)
All issues pertaining to the person and work of Christ:
Belief in Christ’s deity and humanity (1 John 4:2-3; Rom. 10:9)
Belief that you are a sinner in need of God’s mercy (1 John 1:10)
Belief that Christ died on the cross and rose bodily from the grave (1 Cor 15:3-4)
Belief that faith in Christ is necessary (John 3:16)
Last edited by bob_2 (02-04-12 4:57 pm)
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In this case Tom, what does "Charity" mean:
charity - lenient judgment of others
Have you been lenient in talking about SDAs, say, in the last 5 years???? Or have you come across as the only one that sees the issues correctly? Any visions Tom??
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As Jesus Sees Your Heart. Jesus, as He looks into the heart, what does He find?
Matthew 9:2-8 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, (PALSY is the muscular inability to move part or all of the body) lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
As Christ looked upon the palsied man lying in this dreadful disease all he could see was SIN: the terrible, body destroying sickness didn’t captivate his attention as much as his poor Sin sick soul did!!! Christ looked right into his heart and saw his need and the palsied soul knew Christ did….His soul was as paralyzed in sin as his body was in sickness: Jesus therefore assured him that his offenses were pardoned, and that he might lay aside his fears. SAYING: Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. This let me know that the palsied man was conscious of his guilt, LAYING there before Christ’s examining eyes he was conscious of only ONE THING! HIS GUILTY, condemned soul…his wrong doings; His separation from the good, pure life; He was defiled, unclean in himself. He could not get past the guilt of his sin and just maybe felt Christ would not regard him or even bestow the gift of healing. And he knew that God knew!!
Jesus not only saw his need but also knew the evil lurking in the scribes’ hearts.
With Nathanael Jesus saw an honest man:
John 1:47-48 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
As Christ looked upon the widow of Nain he saw the sorrowing heart caused by the deep grief of loosing her only son….. which moved him to compassion…
Luke 7:11-15 And it came to pass the day after, that he went into a city called Nain; and many of his disciples went with him, and much people. Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her. And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not. And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.
GOD ALSO SEES THE LONGING HEART WHO THIRSTS AND DESIRES TO BE REMEMBERED! He did not fail him then!
Luke 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Finally, as Christ SAW AND LOOKED UPON THE HEARTS OF HIS ENEMIES he prayed father forgive them …..why? Because…THEY simply DID NOT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING ..THIS is ULTIMATE LOVE as suffering terrible agony, humiliated and shamed he prayed for the ones hurting him and causing his pain! Asking the father to simply forgive them!! This is love in motion!!!
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
Most important of all: as Christ looks into our heart this VERY moment in time: You must ask yourself what does he find? An honest or pure heart, a suffering heart, a sinful heart, or an evil heart? Only you and He have the answer!
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Bob, your latest attempt to defend your confused view of the Gospel has failed.
The real reason you don’t want to admit the truth about wine is because you follow a false Christ, -and like it. One that also views the Sabbath in a very strange manner not taught in the NT.
So you are a good example of someone who has invented his or her own mythical and wrong version of Christ. Pity.
Bob posted: “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity."
• Belief in God (there is no such thing as an atheistic Christian)
All issues pertaining to the person and work of Christ:
• Belief in Christ’s deity and humanity (1 John 4:2-3; Rom. 10:9)
• Belief that you are a sinner in need of God’s mercy (1 John 1:10)
• Belief that Christ died on the cross and rose bodily from the grave (1 Cor 15:3-4)
Belief that faith in Christ is necessary (John 3:16)
Tom replied: First off, your quote is not from the Bible, Jesus, or any of the apostles. So let’s not pretend otherwise.
http://www.bibleviews.com/Essentials.html
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/ … ll-things/
http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/unitas/essrev.html
Second, the issue about wine is an “essential," necessary, Gospel point.
It shows:
1. Who is carefully following the NT versus those who are manipulating the Bible and history for their own agenda, and
2. How to conduct the Lord’s Supper, the most sacred of all Christian ceremonies, commanded by Christ.
Those who follow the genuine Christ must be honest with the Word and the teachings of Jesus. This is what you admitted in your first point. A belief in “All issues pertaining to the person and work of Christ.”
But Jesus did not teach abstinence, and neither did Judaism. Nor does he teach that false doctrine should be embraced for the sake of unity and love in the church. Such ideas do not come from Christ.
So by your own admission, you have failed to be true to your first point! You have failed to follow the teachings of Christ about an important part of the Gospel Story.
The controversy about wine is no different from the debate about the Sabbath or the Judgment, or the State of the Dead, etc. The doctrines that we embrace reflect the Jesus we follow. Which shows that there is no church today that follows the genuine Christ. This is why the PAJ is so harsh and all condemning.
The fact that there are so many different and mutually exclusive Christs underscores the facts that there are legions of frauds on the loose. For example, there are many Sunday keeping Christ’s, all of which are fictional and worthless. The SDA Christ, like so many others, is also false, and so too the one that the Mormons, RC’s, Baptists, Lutheran’s, etc embrace.
All organized religion in the last days has abandoned the genuine Christ, just like his disciples did on Passion Week. Every denomination today is blind to the Gospel and to Christ, and thus they have all followed a false Gospel, one with many errors and false doctrines.
Those who understand the Gospel will repent and carefully follow the teachings of Christ in all things. Consequently, they will think like Christ and synchronize the belief and behavior to reflect what he teaches about Wine, the Sabbath, Eschatology, Marriage, Money, Church organization, and all else.
Abstinence Wrong
Let me be blunt; anyone in the church today that embraces the doctrine of abstinence is following a FALSE Christ. Period. If they don’t repent their names will be removed from the Book of Life.
Perhaps it is not their fault, maybe they were just taught this error from their youth. But it matters not. The facts show that they have been following a false Christ and a worthless Gospel. Their view of Jesus is not supported by the NT, but made up in the minds of men, and then passed on to the unwary.
So again, I say, the major debate is not really about wine, or the Sabbath, or even the Judgment. Rather, it is all about understanding and following the genuine Christ of the NT. That is the overarching point that matters.
Let all examine themselves to see if their views about doctrine, including wine, tithe, the Judgment, and the Sabbath, line up with the NT Jesus. This is the real issue that all must confront.
The controversy about wine is important because it shows who wants to follow the real Christ versus those who prefer a more traditional, manipulated version.
Those who embrace abstinence, which is a Muslim doctrine, are following a false Christ. Period. And so too those who follow the many wrong and confused versions of the Sabbath. Thus there are many ways to figure out if the Christ we follow is a fraud.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Jesus drank wine, made wine, and served wine. He also made it forever part of the Gospel Story through the Eucharist. Which is why the church, from the beginning, has always rejected the doctrine of abstinence, and so too the RCC to this very day. They are correct and the SDA’s absurdly wrong.
There can be no such doctrine as abstinence in the true church of Christ. Let all Adventists repent of this legalistic and silly error, determining to only follow the true Gospel. Eternal Life is not available from fictional versions of Christ.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, you are one of the first that I've seen saying you have to drink alcohol and keep a certain day to be saved. You are in direct opposition to the items that are essential.I used to think you were just a little apart from SDAs but I see now you are not. You can not see the difference between items that are salvific and those that are not.
Last edited by bob_2 (02-07-12 6:02 pm)
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Tom said:
Tom replied: First off, your quote is not from the Bible, Jesus, or any of the apostles. So let’s not pretend otherwise.
Tom, show me:
1. A command by Jesus to keep the Sabbath while he was here on earth?
2. Show me where Jesus states that the wine had to be fermented that is used in the Communion service.
Tom, you are majoring in minors, doing quite well at it, I must say.
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Also check out this reasoning why not to use wine in the communion cup:
Why We Don’t Use Alcohol For the Lord’s Supper by David R. Brumbelow
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Bob said: Tom, you are one of the first that I've seen saying you have to drink alcohol and keep a certain day to be saved.
Tom said: It is Christ who teaches that “all” must drink wine in honor of the Gospel. Don’t shoot the messenger.
The fact that you were raised by the SDA’s to think Jesus would never drink wine is beside the point and very sad. The real Christ was a wine drinker, and so too all the apostles, which means the SDA Christ is a fraud. Which is why they have so many other false doctrines to also confess.
So yes, I understand why the truth about wine, and the Lord’s Supper, is so shocking for SDA’s. They have been following a Sunday bashing, tithe paying, grape juice drinking, Christ who has led them down a false, self-destructive path for which they must repent or perish.
Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
The teachings of Jesus in the NT are what they are, and so too the facts about wine in both the Bible and history. No one has any right, or authority, to refute what Jesus taught, much less manipulate the Word and deny the facts of history.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Those who preach against wine, and promote the benefits of abstinence, are ashamed to be seen with drinkers. They associate alcohol with sin and wickedness, and thus they are embarrassed of the genuine Christ, even as they have created a false Christ of their own making.
Luke 7:34 “The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’
Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Anyone (“whoever”) that refuses Christ’s command to drink (alcoholic) wine as a Gospel Symbol,- will not be granted Eternal Life. Such doctrinal rebellion and insubordination will not be overlooked in the Judgment day. Why? Because those who embrace abstinence have followed a false Christ and a worthless Gospel.
Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
So drinking wine is not, not, not sin, as many claim. Not even close. Rather, it is sinful to not follow the clear Gospel instructions of Christ and drink wine. Thus what is called great light, --abstinence, is really great darkness and false doctrine from those who know not the Gospel.
Luke 11:34 “The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.
Luke 11:35 “Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.
Jesus is not making a suggestion about wine, as if there are optional drinks, nor does he allow for any exemptions from those who might not like grapes. Which is why he says, “all of you” must drink Gospel wine. Any that refuse, are not part of the Kingdom of God.
The fact that many today were raised to think Christ drank Welch’s grape juice, is laughable error. Jesus was only drinking real wine, and this fact cannot be refuted. This is a point that the pro-abstinence forces must face and accept if they want to follow the real Jesus of the NT.
Those who think they can change the Gospel teachings of Christ to fit their false doctrines and legalistic viewpoints will not be allowed into the Kingdom of God. No amount of double-talk or scare tactics about alcoholism will change the Gospel facts about wine or anything else. We either follow Christ about wine and the Lord’s Supper, and the Sabbath, and the Judgment, etc., or we do not.
No Sabbath Keeping
As for the Sabbath, this was the doctrine that led directly to Jesus death on the cross. The Jews were stunned at Jesus Sabbath teaching, which allowed for all manner of work on the 7th day. Thus they accused him of Sabbath breaking; NOT keeping the Sabbath.
All need to understand that Jesus did not teach anyone to “keep the Sabbath” in the normative manner of the Jews, (which is the same as the SDA doctrine).
There is no OC Sabbath keeping required to follow Christ, even though there is a Gospel Sabbath for all to understand, embrace, and enjoy.
Tom Norris is NOT saying that anyone must “keep” the 7th day, OC Sabbath of the Jews. In fact, to do so is to deny the Gospel and fall from grace, which the SDA’s do every week for all to see. They even add OC Tithe paying to their Sabbath behavior, which further underscores their doctrinal confusion and incompetence, as well as their rebellion against Christ.
Anyone that practices OC Sabbath keeping, by refraining from work on the 7th or 1st day of the week, is repudiating the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. They are proving that they don’t understand the Gospel nor do they follow the teachings of Christ about much of anything.
Bob said: Tom, You are in direct opposition to the items that are unessential.
Tom said: Following the teachings of Christ ARE essential for Eternal Life. Regardless if it is about the Lord’s Supper or the Sabbath, or money, or anything else.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Bob said: I used to think you were just a little apart from SDAs- but I see now you are not. You cannot see the difference between items that are salvific and those that are not.
Tom said: I have long ago repented of OC Adventism. In fact, I am a New Covenant SDA, which is very different from the traditional, Old Covenant Adventist. There is even a different doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath and Pre Advent Judgment that underscores this great doctrinal difference.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … is-SDA.htm
Bob said: Tom, show me:
1. A command by Jesus to keep the Sabbath while he was here on earth?
Tom said: Jesus became famous for breaking the Sabbath, not for “keeping” it. So why are you looking for him to promote something he repudiated?
Jesus taught, promoted, and defended a very different doctrine of the Sabbath. One where the old way of “keeping” the Sabbath by resting and not working was replaced with an active, working lifestyle that shocked the Jews.
So Jesus is never going to promote or embrace the OC Sabbath of Moses or the SDA’s. And neither should we.
Moreover, Jesus commands all that follow him to embrace his teachings, which include his Reformed, active, view of the NC Sabbath. Over and over this point is made.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
John 8:47 “He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
Bob said: 2. Show me where Jesus states that the wine had to be fermented that is used in the Communion service.
Tom said: All wine was fermented. Jesus knew this, even as he made this well-known fact part of his Gospel teaching.
Luke 5:37 “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
Luke 5:38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
Jesus tells all to drink real wine, even as he referred to the church was “new wine.” Thus “new wine” in the Bible is shown as being fermented, disproving a popular myth of the abstinence crowd that claims it was not.
Let all understand; Jesus instructed his followers to drink real wine as part of the Gospel Story. Those who think they are keeping themselves pure and above sin by following abstinence, are following a false Gospel and a worthless Christ, even as their own health will also suffer. They are openly sinning for all to see.
Bob said: Tom, you are majoring in minors, doing quite well at it, I must say.
Tom said: The teachings of Christ are not to be considered “minor,” especially when the most sacred ceremony in the Christian Faith is under discussion.
1Cor. 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
1Cor. 11:24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
1Cor. 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
1Cor. 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
Wine plays a very important role in the Gospel Story. Those who claim wine is grape juice are “unworthy” of the Gospel. They are guilty of disrespecting the teachings of Christ, even as they have changed his Word and dishonestly manipulated his behavior to promote false doctrine. Those who embrace abstinence have the wrong Gospel and the wrong Christ, just like all those who also have the wrong Sabbath, and legions of additional false doctrines.
If the SDA church can’t understand the truth about wine, what chance is there for them to understand anything else correctly? None. Which is why they are condemned in the PAJ. Every church is full of false doctrine, and the SDA’s lead the pack with their absurd and silly errors.
Luke 16:10 “He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much.
Those anti-alcoholic Christians who can’t comprehend the truth about wine, thinking it evil, wrong, and sinful, are also wrong about most everything else as well, even the Sabbath as well as the very Christ they follow. They think it a sin to follow the real Christ, because they have embraced a fraud and don’t know it.
Bob posted: Also check out this reasoning why not to use wine in the communion cup:
Tom said: Those modern day Pharisees who defend the doctrine of abstinence do so in the name of fear and guilt, not in the name of Christ or the Word. Thus they claim wine is “poison” and a “drug” that makes men go wild. Listen to these scare tactics:
“Alcohol is a poison that immediately impairs judgment, kills brain cells, and makes men do what they would never do in their right minds.... Why use that to represent the precious, pure, redeeming blood of Jesus?”
“Why use a drug to represent the blood of Jesus?”
Why We Don’t Use Alcohol For the Lord’s Supper by David R. Brumbelow
http://sbcvoices.com/why-we-dont-use-al … brumbelow/
However, Jesus never taught anyone to drink so much wine that they lose control. Nor does the scare tactics of the 19th century temperance movement, or the later 20th century debacle called the “war on drugs,” trump the 1st century teachings of Christ about wine.
Are we supposed to be so scared of becoming drunks that we stop paying attention to Christ? Are we so embarrassed of being associated with the party crowd, or of becoming drug addicts that Christians would rather change the Gospel Story to fit their fears and traditions?
These are not sufficient reasons to disobey Christ.
Those who embrace abstinence have been lead astray by a false Gospel. So they say:
“Why teach saved children to drink that which is a recreational drug? Why lead anyone by example to drink? Why use a church ordinance to lead someone astray? Alcohol has led multitudes astray.”
Those who make up reasons to deny the facts of history and manipulate the Gospel, are playing a fools game. Which they do with many other doctrines, not just wine.
In conclusion, it is time for the church to get serious about the Gospel teachings of Christ. It is time for all to understand the truth about wine, as well as the Sabbath and the Judgment and every other doctrine as well.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Questioner: Frank
Country: Pennsylvania, United States
Category: Seventh-Day Adventists
Subject: Endorsing Drinking
Tom,
My son just turned the magic number of 18 and is currently struggling with the acceptable use of alcohol. He has been drunk at least three times, last night in a public setting.
He is using comments like the Passover and Water to Wine as examples that Jesus endorsed the use of alcohol.
Personally, how do you respond to the explanations given on these two particular subjects posted on:
http://www.adventistonline.com/forum/topics/wine-2 ?
The Christian and Alcohol
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-libra … cohol.aspx
You don't seem to address them in your post.
Frank, from Pa.
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Tom Norris answers:
-The Sin of Abstinence -
Whenever the religious discussion turns to alcohol, one of the first points raised is about the harm, evil, and sin of drinking. However, this damning position is quickly rebutted by the pro-drinking advocates that agree drinking in excess is unhealthful and wrong, but not in moderation.
The abstinence crowd (which is comprised of legalists and anti-Gospel Pharisees) counters this correct position with the outrageously false claim that wine in the Bible means non-alcoholic grape juice. Here they make their stand. However, if this impossible delusion were true, it means that drinking is sinful and that Jesus does not condone, much less teach or prescribe, “poison” to represent his bloody Passion. Only pasteurized, non-fermented grape juice can represent Christ’s blood they claim.
Which side is correct? There is no middle ground between these two positions. Did Christ and the Church bless and promote fermented wine for the Eucharist or not? Does Christ and the early church embrace the doctrine of abstinence or not?
Most people, 53%, correctly understand that wine in the Bible is real wine, not grape juice. But a large number, 33%, disagree, taking the opposite position, happily embracing the many myths of the abstinence crowd. The rest are not sure.
Poll Results:
Out of 1,900 Christians surveyed, 53% agreed that Jesus did drink alcoholic wine. Many cited Matthew 11:18-19 where Jesus compared His actions to those of John the Baptist, "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber."
While some paraphrased from the Old and New Testaments, "It's not what goes into your body which defiles you, but the words you speak. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" and, "Many times Jesus told His disciples not to be drunk on wine but filled with the Holy Spirit." Others in agreement stated, "All wine has some alcohol in it or else it would be grape juice."
33% percent disagreed with Jesus drinking fermented wine. Their reasoning comments were, "Jesus could not sin and drinking is sin" and, "Wine can mean grape juice or fermented grape juice. Jesus drank unfermented grape juice."
One poll taker in disagreement even quoted Proverbs 20:1, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Other believers felt that, because Jesus was a Nazarene, He was prohibited from drinking alcoholic wine.
http://christiannews.christianet.com/1245936294.htm
Today, the position one takes about alcohol is dependant upon culture, education, and theology. Neither Judaism nor Christianity prohibits the use of alcohol. Real wine has always been used in the Jewish Passover and its doctrinal echo, the Eucharist, which is the most sacred of Christian ceremonies. It is the Muslims that teach wine is unclean and sinful. This is the real source for this false doctrine that infiltrated the Protestant church in the 19th century.
Let all understand: Wine in the Bible is not grape juice, it is alcoholic in nature.
This is not an opinion, but a proven fact of history and science. This is why the Roman Catholic Church has always used real wine in their religious ceremonies, and they still do today. While there was a large wine industry in the ancient world, there was no such product as grape juice, much less an industry. Abstinence is based on many myths from those unable or unwilling to read the Bible honestly or correctly. Wine in the Bible is not grape juice.
See:
A Brief History of Wine
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/05/times … .html?_r=0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece_and_wine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_wine
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/enc … /wine.html
http://ancientpeoples.tumblr.com/post/3 … ient-roman
**Wine in Israel**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_wine
http://www.israeli-wine.org/the-history … aeli-wine/
http://www.allhlwines.com/history.html
This outcome of this debate about wine in the Bible is telling and serious. It shows who is paying attention to the Word and who is deliberately manipulating and changing scripture to fit their false views. Many of those in the abstinence crowd have an irrational hatred of wine, which is called “oenophobia.” Such cannot understand the Gospel.
Oenophobia: An exaggerated or irrational dislike or hatred of wine
http://www.phobiasource.com/oenophobia-fear-of-wines/
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/o/oenophobia/intro.htm
More specifically, it shows who is serious about following the genuine Christ of the New Testament, and who is content to follow a false and worthless Christ that features grape juice.
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Post Preview:
This post about the doctrine of alcoholic abstinence will briefly cover a number of points, (A-H) starting with the stunning fact that some in the Protestant Church, including the SDA’s, have confused the teachings of Mohammad for Christ. The evidence will also show that wine is neither unclean nor harmful as many teach. In fact, from a theological point, abstinence is a great sin, not moderate drinking. I repeat: Abstinence is sin, and those that advocate it are great sinners and fools.
The final section, (H), is a scathing refutation of Doug Batchelors outrageously wrong and blasphemous position about wine. While much more could have been said in this section, it is sufficient to expose him and the anti-Gospel abstinence crowd as theological frauds. This man is a wolf in sheep;s clothing and all should beware.
A number of online sources / links are also provided in order to help the reader separate facts from the many myths that abound. While those in the 19th century could be excused for being so naïve and wrong about wine in the Bible, no one today has any such excuse. We live in the 21st century, where such myths of the past can easily be put to rest by honestly looking at the facts.
Contents:
A. Anti-Gospel Doctrine from Islam
B. Abstinence = Sin
C. 19th century Protestants Invent False Doctrine
D. SDA’s Embrace Abstinence
E. The Truth about Abstinence
F. Wine & Health
G. Wine, the drink of Eternal Life
H. Tom Norris Refutes Doug Batchelor
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-The Sin of Abstinence -by Tom Norris of Adventist Reform, Sept 2014
A. Anti-Gospel Doctrine from Islam
The doctrine of Abstinence comes, neither from the Old Testament nor Christ in the New Covenant, but from the Koran. Abstinence is Muslim doctrine that prohibits drinking of wine or alcohol. Consequently, Islam, unlike the Jews or Christians, has no religious festivals that use wine. Moreover, such a doctrinal prohibition teaches that the Gospel Story, is false and wrong, not to be followed or practiced.
(No Muslim can become a Christian due to their prohibition about wine. They would have to renounce their teaching of abstinence, as well as many other things, in order to participate in the Eucharist.)
Let everyone wake up and understand that those most anti-Christ, the Muslims, embrace the doctrine of abstinence. They are purposefully not following the teachings of Christ, nor do they believe his blood is salvific. This doctrine of Abstinence reflects their unbelief in Christ and shows great disdain for the cross, which is the heart of the Gospel.
Alcohol in Islam
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/2229/
http://www.al-islam.org/ritual-and-spir … at-taharat
Why is alcohol forbidden in Islam?
http://islam.about.com/od/health/f/alcohol.htm
Islamic dietary laws
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_di … ntoxicants
Religion and Dietary Practices
http://www.diet.com/g/religion-and-dietary-practices
The doctrines of the Christian Faith do not mix or mesh with Islam on any level. It is insulting, outrageous, and blasphemous that the doctrines of Islam have infiltrated into the very heart of the Gospel’s primary ritual, the Lord’s Supper. This stunning, prophetic, situation, (in the Protestant Church), proves that many have been following false teachers and wolves all these years, including the SDA’s. They have legions of false doctrine, abstinence being just one of many.
1Tim. 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Cor. 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
Jesus or Mohammed; which one do you follow?
B. Abstinence = Sin
As for the doctrine of abstinence in the church, it is a doctrine for those that are blind to the Gospel. There is no such doctrine in the early church, or even later, not until the 19th century, after Thomas Welch invented grape juice. It is for those legalists who think they are not sinners, and that they are living a better life than others.
Abstinence is for those foolish Christians not paying attention to Christ or his Word. To embrace such false doctrine requires a deliberate rejection of the Bible, as well as a denial that covers the history of the world and the fundamentals of Judaism. Such reckless disregard for the simple truth about wine proves that this abstinence crowd is not, not, not, following the genuine Christ of the NT. They do not being honest, nor do they want to understand the Gospel correctly. They are not saved.
Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Let all understand; the Gospel Story does not in any way teach or support abstinence, as the incompetent SDA’s and some others teach (Mormons, Baptists, etc). Jesus has much to say about wine, and none of it supports the doctrine of abstinence. Those foolish enough to insert Muslim based theology into the Gospel Story are incompetent fools and false shepherds.
How dare any denomination attempt to alter the history of the world and the teachings of Christ and the church by manipulation and doubletalk. Shame on the SDA’s for being so wrong about so much. They are as blind and naked as anyone else in Laodicea. No wonder they are self-destructing. How can those that refute what Christ teaches about wine think they are saved? Anyone that thinks Christ teaches abstinence, does not understand nor embrace the genuine NT Gospel. They have been following a false Christ all these years.
The grape juice drinking, tithe-paying, Sabbath-keeping SDA Christ--is a fraud. The genuine Christ drank and made real wine. He never paid tithe or taught the Church to follow such an old covenant system; nor did He refrain from working on the seventh-day Sabbath, as the Adventist teach. The SDA’s do not know the real Jesus, anymore than they know where to find the Pre-Advent Judgment, which is not in Dan 8:14 as they claim.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Let all understand: Abstinence is a great sin against God and heaven. Abstinence is an insult to Christ; a slap to his face, a repudiation of the Gospel, and a clear refutation of the Bible Story.
Matt. 26:27 And when Jesus had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Those who know Christ, will not embrace the false doctrine of abstinence. They will gladly drink the cup of Eternal life, as instructed and practiced by Christ for all to see in the Gospels. Those that follow a false Christ, drink grape juice instead of real wine, as if they were also trying to follow Mohammad. They are blind to the genuine Gospel, shocked to know they have been so foolish and wrong all these years. Their grape juice Jesus will not save them in the Judgment because there is no such fabricated Christ. He is a legalistic delusion.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Jesus teaches that wine is alcoholic and medicinal, as well as religious. Those who think otherwise are not following Christ.
C. 19th century Protestants Invent False Doctrine; Abstinence
While the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutherans correctly use real wine in the Eucharist, some Nineteenth century Protestants concluded that non-alcoholic grape juice should replace alcoholic wine, which some considered sinful, leading to the scourge of alcoholism. Thus a new doctrine of abstinence was introduced into Protestant theology and practice, one that was legalistic and very false.
Such a position about abstinence was only possible due to the recent discoveries of pasteurization, which Dr. Welch, a Methodist, used to invent, non-alcoholic, “sacramental wine.” Here is the birth of false, Nineteenth century doctrine, which has become a fundamental teaching in a number of Protestant denominations, including the confused SDA’s.
New wine, New Wineskins, New False Doctrine
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/2005/issue85/10.13.html
Welch’s History
http://www.welchs.com/about-us/our-story
http://honors.uca.edu/wiki/index.php/We … ce_Company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bra … kerKaren-3
The Methodists were in the forefront of the new abstinence movement. They linked the sin of slavery with the "manufacturing, buying, selling, or using intoxicating liquors." The Temperance Movement supported this new Protestant doctrine that was sweeping the churches. By the early Twentieth century, the debacle of Prohibition became the law in the US, reeking havoc and raising crime to such intolerable levels that repeal was necessary.
Prohibition was just another form of “blue laws,” whereby the church was soliciting help from the State to enforce false religious doctrine. Here was a remarkably wrong blending of church and state that few SDA’s have recognized. While many think Prohibition has it roots with the Puritans, this is not true, as they did not practice abstinence whatsoever.
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/2005/issue85/10.13.html
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_alcohol
Mark 7:6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mark 7:7 ‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
The doctrine of abstnence is utterly false, false, false. It is a doctrine from Islam, not from Christ or the church.
D. SDA’s Embrace Abstinence
SDA theology has been greatly influenced by the Methodists and Baptists, especially when it comes to wine. Because the SDA’s were so legalistic, trying to live without sin, they, too, quickly embraced the new abstinence movement. Thus the SDA’s, like so many others in America, concluded that alcohol was “poison,” a sinful drink that Christ would never touch. As a result, they, too, made the switch from real wine at communion to Welch’s sacramental, non-alcoholic wine. And to this very day, this is what they serve for the LORD’S SUPPER.
See: 28 Fundamental Beliefs-
#22 Behavior: It also means that because our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, we are to care for them intelligently. Along with adequate exercise and rest, we are to adopt the most healthful diet possible and abstain from the unclean foods identified in the Scriptures. Since alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and the irresponsible use of drugs and narcotics are harmful to our bodies, we are to abstain from them as well. Instead, we are to engage in whatever brings our thoughts and bodies into the discipline of Christ, who desires our wholesomeness, joy, and goodness. (Rom. 12:1, 2; 1 John 2:6; Eph. 5:1-21; Phil. 4:8; 2 Cor. 10:5; 6:14-7:1; 1 Peter 3:1-4; 1 Cor. 6:19, 20; 10:31; Lev. 11:1-47; 3 John 2.)
http://www.adventist.org/fileadmin/adve … nglish.pdf
Ellen White Embraced Temprence Theology
Listen to Ellen White encourage SDA’s to live a life of “purity,” one “almost equal with angels.” See her declare wine in the Bible is grape juice, AND THAT CHRIST WOULD NEVER DRINK REAL WINE. This is what many others were also saying.
“There is but one standard of right in the world, and that is God’s standard. We are all virtually under equal obligations to meet that high standard; and God holds us alike responsible to him. Society may set up artificial differences and regulations but the fixed fact remains the same. Men require women to live up to a standard of purity almost equal with that of the angels, while they erect a standard of quite a different character for themselves.” {Ellen White, Health Reformer, July 1, 1878 par. 1}
“The Bible nowhere teaches the use of intoxicating wine, either as a beverage or as a symbol of the blood of Christ. We appeal to the natural reason whether the blood of Christ is better represented by the pure juice of the grape in its natural state, or after it has been converted into a fermented and intoxicating wine. We maintain that the former is the only symbol properly representing the sacred blood of Christ, and a symbol established by himself; and we urge that the latter should never be placed upon the Lord’s table.”
{Ellen White, HR, July 1, 1878 par. 10}
“Christ did not contradict His own teaching. The unfermented wine that He provided for the wedding guests was a wholesome and refreshing drink. This is the wine that was used by our Saviour and His disciples in the first Communion. It is the wine that should always be used on the Communion table as a symbol of the Saviour’s blood. The sacramental service is designed to be soul-refreshing and life-giving. There is to be connected with it nothing that could minister to evil. {MH 333.2}”
Although it is clear that the SDA’s embraced the new grape juice fad, it was false doctrine then, as well as now. Ellen White is not an apostle, thus, no doctrine can be based on her views, much less on “natural reason.” She was not a theologian, and she admits to making many errors, pointing all to the Word, which is the primary source of truth.
Ellen White did not invent her strong views on abstinence. In fact, they were developed by non-SDA’s; promoted as theological truth and scientific fact without any help from Ellen White. Thus the Adventists embraced the Temperance theologians, adopting their abstinence views and hermeneutic.
See also:
The SDA Scandal of Abstinence
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=238
Ellen White
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=225
Temperance Theologians
One of the leading theologians for the Abstinence/Temperance Movement was Frederic Lees:
“Believing both in the authority of Scripture and the scientific proof of alcohol's poisonous nature, Protestant theologians and exegetes tried to explain the Bible's positive use of the word wine, not least Jesus' command to his disciples to remember him by consuming it. Led by Biblical commentator Frederic Lees, they theorized that several Hebrew and Greek words used to mean wine in the Bible actually referred to grape juice. Jesus had instituted the Eucharist with the unfermented "fruit of the vine," whereas the ferment of intoxication represented "the leaven of the Pharisees," symbolizing corruption and decay.
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ch/2005/issue85/10.13.html
In fact, as early as 1868, a Temperance Bible Commentary was published by Lees and Dawson, claiming that wine in the Bible was unfermented grape juice. This dubious work, which is full of error, has been the basis for all those that embrace abstinence ever since.
http://www.unz.org/Pub/LeesFrederic-1870
http://www.nodrinking.com/temperance-bible-commentary/
http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/006555551
The SDA’s today happily echo this outdated abstinence apologetic, which can be seen in the late Dr. B’s pathetic book promoting abstinence.
See:
WINE IN THE BIBLE: A BIBLICAL STUDY ON THE USE OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES by:
Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo … ble/4.html
Here is a correcting reply to Dr. B. Many more could be cited:
Wine, Alcohol, and the Bible
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowine.php
The early SDA’s, not having any trained theologians, embraced the biblical double-talk and legalism about wine being grape juice. And so too did many others, including the Methodists and Baptists. See below.
THE CHRISTIAN AND ALCOHOL
“Southern Baptists meeting in session have called their brothers and sisters to live ―an exemplary Christian lifestyle of abstinence from beverage alcohol and all other harmful drugs‖ (1984);
To recognize alcohol as ―America‘s number one drug problem‖ (1982);
To ―reaffirm our historic position as opposing alcohol as a beverage‖ (1978); to view ―personal abstinence‖ as the ―Christian way‖ (1957);
To express their ―unceasing opposition to the manufacture, sale and use of alcoholic beverages‖ (1955);
To realize alcohol is a ―habit-forming and destructive poison‖ (1940) and the ―chief source of vice, crime, poverty and degradation‖ (1936);
and to ―reassert our truceless and uncompromising hostility to the manufacture, sale, importation and transportation of alcoholic beverages‖ (1896).”
http://criswell.files.wordpress.com/200 … matted.pdf
Abstinence became new, 19th century (false) doctrine for many churches, and the SDA’s made the mistake of embracing this fad, for which they must repent. Wine in the Bible is not grape juice. Abstinence is not a Jewish or Christian doctrine, it comes from Islam, and then from the legalistic, 19th century Protestants that were trying to also enforce Sunday laws.
E. The Truth about Abstinence
The truth about wine in Judaism and Christianity must come from the ancient record. It is not a matter of opinion, theological double-talk, or local tradition. This is an issue that can only be resolved by understanding world history and NT theology, not by considering recent doctrines or the needs of society.
In other words, Gospel doctrine cannot be based on modern culture, much less on the principals of the Prohibition movement. Only the teaching and example of Christ can determine doctrine for the church. Whatever Jesus teaches on this topic, and all others, is truth for the church.
While all, especially the youth, need to understand the dangers of excess drinking, such danger cannot, under any circumstances, change the history of the world or the theological contents and definition of the Gospel. Nor should false doctrines, such as abstinence, be allowed to contaminate the Gospel teachings of Christ, which alone defines salvation.
John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
While some may think this debate is of minor importance, and that it does not matter which view is adopted, this is false. To misunderstand the meaning of wine in the Bible, is to misunderstand the Bible, as well as the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Get this ancient word wrong, thinking it is grape juice, and you will find yourself surrounded by additional false and delusional doctrines. Such is the slippery slope of daring to tamper with the Bible to protect theological errors.
This issue about wine reveals if one is honest with the Word as well as with reality. Many Christian denominations, like the SDA’s, are cultic and delusional. They have become experts at manipulating the Bible to say what they want to hear. All the while ignoring what they don’t like. This is not the proper hermeneutic to find truth. The Advent Movement was once based on the honest search for Gospel truth, but that is no longer policy or practice.
F. Wine & Health
Many things in life can be very dangerous, not just alcohol. In fact, eating too much processed food leads to obesity and all manner of health problems. Is processed food sinful?
In the old covenant, the sin of “gluttony” was punishable by death. Should everyone stop eating food because many abuse food today? Such reasoning is absurd. But yet, this is the reasoning used to prove wine evil and wrong, thus establishing abstinence. But wine is not sinful and neither is any food or drink unclean. Jesus teaches that all food and drink, including wine, are CLEAN.
Mark 7:14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand:
Mark 7:15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.
Mark 7:16 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Mark 7:17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.
Mark 7:18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him,
Mark 7:19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and 1is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
Col. 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
Col. 2:21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”
This idea that wine is harmful to ones health or salvation is flat out wrong. It is a fabricated point that is being dishonestly used as a scare tactic. Wine is not sinful, much less a poison, far from it. Today, science has confirmed that moderate drinking of wine IMPROVES HEALTH AND EXTENDS LIFE. Studies prove over and over that those who drink wine are more healthy that those who abstain. Period.
Let the physical truth about wine be understood by all, even as the spiritual truths about wine and the Gospel are also comprehended. Wine is the drink of Eternal Life; it improves ones health, both physically and spiritually. The abstinence crowd is wrong not only about wine, but about the Gospel and the teachings of Christ. Let all beware such uneducated legalists.
Wine, used moderately, has proven health benefits, it:
1) Promotes Longevity
2) Reduces Heart-Attack Risk
3) Lowers Risk of Heart Disease
4) Reduces Risk of Type 2 Diabetes
5) Lowers Risk of Stroke
6) Cuts Risk of Cataracts
7) Cuts Risk of Colon Cancer
8) Slows Brain Decline
Health Benefits of Wine
http://www.foodandwine.com/articles/8-h … nking-wine
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_wine
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency … 001963.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10940346
http://mentalfloss.com/article/53613/wh … nking-wine
http://www.refinery29.com/red-wine
http://www.frenchscout.com/polyphenols
http://www.frenchscout.com/types-of-red-wines
http://www.today.com/id/21478144/ns/tod … APloF7CFs4
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filt … efits.html
Wine Boosts Your Brain
A recent study shows a boost in brain power for women who enjoy a little alcohol. The study, published in the Jan. 20 issue of The New England Journal of Medicine, evaluated more than 12,000 women aged 70-81. Moderate drinkers scored better than teetotalers on tests of mental function. Researchers found a boost in brainpower with one drink a day. Moderate drinkers had a 23% reduced risk of mental decline compared with nondrinkers.
http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/featu … od-for-you
http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/health-benefits-wine
Preventing Breast Cancer- Red Wine
Regular consumption of most alcoholic drinks increases the risk of breast cancer. However, red wine intake has the opposite effect, researchers from Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles found.In the Journal of Women's Health, the scientists explained that chemicals in the skins and seeds of red grapes reduce estrogen levels while raising testosterone in premenopausal women - which results in a lower risk of developing breast cancer.
The authors emphasized that it is not just the red wine that has the beneficial compounds, but its raw material - red grape. They suggested that when women are choosing an alcoholic drink to consume, they should consider red wine. They reiterated that they were not encouraging wine over grapes.
The study surprised many researchers. Most studies point to a higher risk of breast cancer from consuming alcoholic drinks, because alcohol raises a woman's estrogen levels, which in turn encourage the growth of cancer cells.Study co-author, Dr. Chrisandra Shufelt, MD, said: "If you were to have a glass of wine with dinner, you may want to consider a glass of red. Switching may shift your risk."
Red Wine Prevents Tooth Decay
Red wine, even non-alcoholic red wine, hardens your enamel to prevent tooth decay. Hardened enamel is more resistant to Streptococcus mutans, the bacteria which lives on your teeth and is responsible for tooth decay. The polyphenols in red wine can also prevent gum disease, and even help to treat it by reducing inflammation in the gums.
http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/ … ine.html#b
See also:
What are the benefits of wine?
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/265635.php
http://www.allhlwines.com/veritas.html
Wine is a very healthy and necessary drink, and it has been so for thousands of years. Today, wine has numerous proven benifits that extends life and improves well being. No wonder it was chosen by Christ to be the official drink of the Gospel and the church.
G. Wine, the Drink of Eternal Life (don’t leave Earth without it!)
In addition to wine being beneficial for our physical health, it is also very necessary for Eternal Life. It is the drink of choice by Christ to represent his blood, by which we are saved. Who dares say otherwise and change the most sacred of all Christian rituals into a children’s juice drink?
When it comes to the genuine Christ and the authentic Eucharist, there can be no drink substituted in place of real wine, much less a processed, unnatural, manipulated drink that represents legalism and the teachings of Islam. (Has the church lost its’mind? Yes.)
Wine is hardly poison, as the abstinence crowd teaches, rather, it is the drink of Eternal Life. Those who say otherwise, have repudiated Christ and the Gospel, even as they obey the teachings of Islam. Such will not receive any physical or spiritual benefits, much less praise from Christ for embracing abstinence. The abstinence crowd is being very foolish to try and blend Islam with the Christian Faith. They have lost their minds.
John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
The doctrine of abstinence is poisonous doctrine for the blind and foolish. Those that advocate abstinence are committing sin against Christ and his Gospel. They may think they are more righteous, obedient, and pure than others, and that such legalism will gain them heaven, but they are only showing their fatal ignorance of the Bible and the Gospel teachings of Christ. They have condemned others for following Christ and drinking wine; now they are self-condemned, blind to the Word and to the genuine Gospel and its’ featured drink.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
See also:
Wine in the Bible
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … -today.htm
The SDA Scandal of Abstinence
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=238
H. Tom Norris Refutes Doug Batchelor, Disproves Abstinence
Here is a rebuttal to the SDA “study” about wine. This dishonest and outrageous apologetic was written by Doug Batchelor, a legalist and confused Jew that misunderstands the Gospel in the worst way. There is very little truth to what he and the SDA’s teach about wine or anything.
As if he were a Muslim, the confused Batchelor declares, “Alcohol is unholy and unclean.” Then, as an SDA, he declares, “The church should never condone or allow that first step by teaching it’s permissible to drink a little wine.”
Wow! This outrageous article (which is not a study, as claimed) should have been called “Amazing Myths.” It could not be more incorrect, absurd, and wrong. Doug Batchelor promotes Mohammad, not Christ. He is an enemy of the Gospel. He does not understand the Bible nor does he want to learn. SDA doctrine today is shameful, and so too those wolves that defend and promote it.
The SDA’s are not only dishonest and wrong to support abstinence; they have a long list of other errors that include, tithe, the IJ, and even the doctrine of the Sabbath, which they do not fully or correctly understand. So if one is wrong about wine, it means there are many others errors that also abound.
While Batchelor slams those that drink as shameful and wrong, it is the Adventists that belong in a denominational “Hall of Shame” because they have so much “amazing” error, of which wine is only a small part. No one should support what the SDA’s teach about wine, the Sabbath, or much of anything else. They do not know the Bible or the Gospel as they pretend. Christ is a stranger to them. They are a very dishonest and double-talking denomination, one that needs to repent and correct their many false doctrines.
See:
The Christian and Alcohol
An Amazing Fact, by Doug Batchelor, a teacher of abstinence
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-libra … cohol.aspx
Doug Batchelor wrote: Tests show that after drinking three bottles of beer, there is an average of 13 percent net memory loss. After taking only small quantities of alcohol, trained typists were tested and their errors increased 40 percent. Only one ounce of alcohol increases the time required to make a decision by nearly 10 percent; hinders muscular reaction by 17 percent; increases errors due to lack of attention by 35 percent. —Paul Harvey. Is it Biblically permissible for a Christian to drink alcohol? If so, how much? This controversial subject has evoked many passionate opinions among Christians. Why? Is God’s Word silent or in anyway unclear about alcohol?
I submit that the Bible is in no way ambiguous when it speaks on alcohol and how it relates to God’s followers. I hope the following study will assist you in forming your own biblically based conclusions on this important subject.
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Tom Norris responds: I agree that the Bible is very plain about wine. It is also plain about many other things, but the SDA’s have their own agenda and traditions to uphold. So rather than admit any errors, they have doubled-down in defense of one false doctrine after another.
Second, the issue about wine in the Bible has zero to do with its supposedly negative effects. Those that embraced the Gospel were often persecuted and ostracized, some killed, which means that following Jesus was very harmful to ones health, even fatal. Far more than drinking. Does this mean we should all reject the Gospel in order to avoid such negative outcomes? Of course not. So the argument that alcohol is bad for ones health is irrelevant because the Gospel is much more “dangerous” to ones health. Many early believers lost their property and lives, which of course means they lost all their brain cells.
Matt. 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Acts 22:3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated under Gamaliel, strictly according to the law of our fathers, being zealous for God just as you all are today.
Acts 22:4 “I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons,
Acts 22:5 as also the high priest and all the Council of the elders can testify. From them I also received letters to the brethren, and started off for Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem as prisoners to be punished.
Matt. 5:10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
The underlying issue is this; what does the Bible, and Christ, teach about wine. Does Christ teach that wine ruins ones mind? No. Doctrine is not based on dubious scientific tests about brain cells, much less on 19th century myths from the abstinence crowd. Gospel doctrine comes directly to us from the written teachings and sayings of Christ in the Gospels. Does Christ teach abstinence? THIS is the great question that settles the issue.
Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
Luke 21:33 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
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Doug Batchelor wrote: Two Opposing Camps; Among Christians, there are two primary camps of thought on this sensitive topic. The first group argues that Jesus Himself drank wine, and since a Christian is a follower of Christ, how can it be forbidden? And generally, they add with a moderate air: “but even so, drinking should not be done to excess.”
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Tom Norris replied: The church has always had two different factions, one that was legalistic, embracing a distorted, false Gospel, and another, represented by Paul, that embraced correct theology. This is what the book of Galatians is all about. It was a fight over the definition and the validity of the old covenant law versus the new covenant teachings of Christ. There was no debate over wine or abstinence, as the Jews and the early church did not practice abstinence. Wine in the Bible is not grape juice.
Gal. 3:1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
The major debates in the SDA church were between the legalists and those, like Dr. Ford, that understood the Protestant Gospel. The legalists, that promote abstinence, have managed to retain control. Which is why MILLIONS have left the church. This crowd does not know Christ or the Gospel as they pretend.
This idea about wine being a sinful drink is a 19th century invention of the Temperance Movement. Here is new, false doctrine that many churches embraced with both hands, including the early SDA’s. No one should be fooled by Batchelor’s manipulation of history. The Two Opposing camps in the church did not have any debate about wine. It was about the law and the Gospel, a topic that the SDA’s have yet to comprehend.
Moreover, the debate about food and drink in the early church had to do with whether the wine had first been offered to idols. It was not a debate about the evils of alcohol versus grape juice. There was only alcoholic wine, no grape juice and thus the debate was about the wine being blessed by false religion and worthless idols.
1Cor. 10:19 What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?
1Cor. 10:20 No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons.
1Cor. 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
Wine blessed by idols was bad. Wine not blessed by false religion is good. Wine that is used in the Eucharist is holy and salvific because it represents the Gospel. Grape juice is not wine and it will never be wine. It has been processed by man so as never to change into wine. Grape juice cannot represent the Gospel; it is only good for a manmade religion of fools.
Before we go further, let’s make a necessary point. Wine is praised and embraced in Judaism. But not Islam. It is Muslim doctrine to rant and rage against wine. Abstinence is Muslim doctrine. Shame on those that pretend to be Christians when they are something else.
**Wine In Judaism**
Ecclesiastes offered praise for wine several times. The writer, possibly King Solomon, understood that wine brought joy to life and that was something to celebrate. “Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.” (Ecclesiastes 9:7). And later he wrote, “A feast is made for laughter, and wine makes life merry.” (Ecclesiastes 10:19)
One of the most beautiful of all the Psalms, Psalm 104, celebrates the natural wonder of the world and praises God for the sustenance that fed his people.
He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for man to cultivate –
bringing forth food from the earth:
Wine that gladdens the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine,
and bread that sustains his heart.
(Psalm 104:14-15)
This Psalm celebrates the basics of the Jewish diet: cattle for milk and occasionally meat, olive oil, bread, and wine. Wine brings us joy – and that is a wonderful thing. It made every meal into an enjoyable experience. Wine eased the pain and hardship of manual labor on the farm. These passages from the Hebrew Scriptures indicate an acceptance of wine as part of their culture, and consistent with their faith. People drank wine everyday in ancient Israel and throughout the Mediterranean. This legacy continues today in modern Israel, as well as Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Greece, and other Mediterranean countries that have drank wine for millennia.
https://sites.google.com/site/filipinob … dailybread
The Bible has many positive and good things to say about wine. Woe to those that manipulate the Word to say what they want to hear. Woe to those like Doug Batchelor that promote the anti-Gospel, Muslim doctrine of abstinence, claiming that this is what Jesus teaches. Such talk is blasphemy.
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Doug Batchelor continued: Then there is the other position: alcohol is an addictive and destructive drug that no sincere Christian should use to any degree.
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Tom Norris replied: Today, abstinence is the view of those so-called Protestants who are nothing more than uneducated legalists. These grim and somber purists quote outdated myths from the Temperance Movement, not the latest scientific studies. Why? Because these deluded and dishonest souls think they are too pure and holy to drink wine, when they are hardly any such thing.
Moreover, there was no debate about wine or abstinence in the early church. And when there was some minor discussion in the 19th century by the Temperance minded Protestants, the Lutherns refused to play along. No serious scholars support abstinence as New Testament doctrine because there is no such doctrine in the early church.
Luke 5:37 “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
Luke 5:38 “But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
So why is this SDA apologist pretending that there is a serious debate about wine in the church, when there is not? Wine in the Bible is real wine, not grape juice. This fact will stand forever. Who cares what the cultic Mormons or the SDA’s say? There is no real debate about this historic issue from the RCC or the Lutherans, or from any serious historian or scholar. The SDA’s, and others, are great liars, incompetent fools that don’t know how to read the Bible or understand the First Century teachings of Jesus. Shameful behavior from those that claim to follow Christ.
Matt. 9:17 “Nor do people put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved.”
The New Covenant Gospel does not mix with Old Covenant legalism, nor should those that follow Christ embrace myths about wine. The new wine of the Gospel is not to be viewed as grape juice, a non-existent drink in the ancient world. Those that make up false doctrines, like abstinence or the IJ, or tithe, etc., are following a false Gospel. Unless they repent, they are “ruined.”
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Doug Batchelor said: In fairness, I will state from the beginning that I am firmly in the unfermented camp! I believe that scriptural references to Jesus’ use of wine are of the grape juice variety.
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Tom Norris replied: You are not an apostle, so who cares where you stand or what you believe! You are nothing more than a paid apologist for the SDA’s; you have no choice but to promote what your employer wants. So stop pretending you are being objective and fair. You are a wolf, abusing and misleading the sheep with one falsehood after another. Wine in the Bible is not grape juice, no matter who pretends to sincerely believe such myths.
Moreover, this issue cannot be settled by what someone “believes,” as if our opinions matter. They don’t. Christian doctrine comes from the teaching of Christ and his apostles. Only what they “believe” and teach in the First Century matters. Thus the Gospels determine doctrinal truth, not what a paid, modern, apologist teaches.
Those that claim the New Testament teaches abstinence have become experts at ignoring the obvious and denying the facts that prove them wrong. Doug Batchelor is being very foolish to pretend wine is grape juice. The words of Jesus about wine make it clear what he is talking about. But to those with a legalistic agenda, the truth about wine is incomprehensible. And so too is the Gospel!
Mark 2:22 “No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins.”
Jesus teaches that wine is alcoholic. And so, too, do the facts of world history and agriculture. Wine in the Bible means naturally fermenting wine. This fact will stand the test of time, and no amount of double-talk can change world history or what is so plain and self-evident in the Gospel record.
**Jesus Shows Wine as Medicine**
The parable of the Good Samaritan is another example that shows Jesus understood that wine in the ancient world was not grape juice. Jesus causually describes wine being routinely used as disinfectant. Such use was common knowledge, which is why Jesus includes it in the parable. This use of the word wine is not grape juice (which did not exist), but real fermented wine that kills germs and has healing properties.
Luke 10:33 “But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,
Luke 10:34 and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him.
This outrageous idea that wine in the Bible is grape juice is absurd and impossible. No credible scholar or historian would ever support such a false and fabricated position. Wine is not grape juice in the Gospel Story. Those that think so have embraced a worthless Christ, a fabricated grape juice Jesus that does not exist.
Wine as a Disinfectant
Hippocrates, often referred to as the "father of western medicine", promoted wine as part of a healthy diet. He also claimed that wine was good for disinfecting wounds, as well as a liquid in which medications could be mixed and taken more easily by patients. Hippocrates said wine should be used to alleviate pain during childbirth, for symptoms of diarrhea, and even lethargy.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/265635.php
The NT teaches that wine in the Bible is real wine. There was no such drink as “grape juice,” nor would such a non-alcoholic drink be useful for healing wounds and stopping infection. Abstinence is a myth dreamed up by those legalists that refused to understand the Gospel.
Wine in the Bible
This idea that wine in the Bible is grape juice is absurd. One need only read the first mention of wine in the Bible to understand.
Gen. 9:20 Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard.
Gen. 9:21 He drank of the wine and became drunk,
Only a blind fool would pretend that wine is non-fermented grape juice, a drink that did not exist until the 19th century. But yet, the SDA’s have become so used to manipulating the Bible to say what they want it to say, they no longer know how to read the word or comprehend the Gospel. Doug Batchelor has no conscious or Holy Spirit. He is a great blasphemer, and his foolish position about wine underscores his anti-Christ attitude. He is a religious fraud, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, let all the sheep beware.
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Doug Batchelor said: But before the wine connoisseurs toss this book aside, you owe it to yourself to hear me out. I come from the perspective of one who grew up frequently drinking wine or beer with dinner—I even brewed my own beer and made wine once. But I have never been an alcoholic, so my position is not the result of overreacting from a clean and sober victory.
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Tom Norris replied: First off, Batchelor is a well-paid and pampered apologist for the SDA’s. But he has no freedom to speak his mind or correct any false doctrine, if he wanted to. So no one should “hear him out,” as if he were objective or truthful. He is neither. He is a hired hand against the Gospel. He follows and promotes a false Christ.
So Batchelor is not “over reacting,” but doing what his employer has instructed and paid him to do. This is hardly a stamp of approval. He is a very dishonest and clever spokesperson for false doctrine.
The SDA position of abstinence should be tossed in the garbage: Why? Because it is not based on the Bible, or the teachings of Christ or the early church. THIS is why it is wrong. SHAME ON THE SDA’S for their dishonest handling of the Word.
Moreover, this issue has zero to do with liking or not liking wine. There is only one proper perspective to view any Gospel doctrine; does Jesus teach and support the position, whatever it may be. When it comes to wine, Jesus clearly teaches that wine is alcoholic, as does the long history of the Jews and the church. Christ wants everyone, without exception, to drink it as they participate in the Gospel Story.
Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
Those, like Doug Batchelor, that refuse to drink real wine, as instructed by Christ, are damned in the Judgment. It is the “will” and intent of heaven for his church to drink real wine, not a phony, unnatural, substitute. Any that refuse, for any reason, will be doomed.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Abstinence is an anti- Gospel, anti-Christ doctrine from the devil. Those who practice this fraud have embraced a false and worthless Christ. No wonder it works so well for the Muslims?
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
The real Jesus drank real wine and instructed his followers to do so in his name and honor. It is blasphemy for anyone to refute Christ and pretend that wine is sinful. Those who embrace abstinence are guilty of doctrinal fraud. They misunderstand Christ and repudiate what he teaches and what the Bible clearly teaches. They are self-condemned.
1Cor. 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
1Cor. 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
1Cor. 11:28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1Cor. 11:29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
Those today that drink grape juice at the Eucharist, are not “proclaiming the Lord’s death until he comes,” rather, they are proclaiming their own personal and distorted views about wine, sin, and salvation. They are refuting the specific instruction of Christ, yet pretending to follow him.
Such are very foolish hypocrites. The doctrine of abstinence does not lead to Eternal Life. Only to darkness and doom. Doug Batchelor is a religious fraud, a false prophet working for a stubborn, anti- Gospel denomination that refuses correction. Let all beware SDA propaganda!
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Doug Batchelor wrote: What Is Alcohol? Let’s begin with a definition. There are many forms of this compound called alcohol. However, there is no mistaking that all of them are classified as poisons—toxins to the human body. The alcohol found in beverages such as beer, wine, and brandy is ethanol (C2H5OH), a clear, highly flammable liquid that has a burning taste and a characteristic odor.
What happens when one consumes this type of alcohol? Well, death usually occurs if the concentration of ethanol in the bloodstream exceeds about five percent! But even for those who use it sparingly, immediate behavioral changes, impairment of vision and unconsciousness can occur at lower concentrations. That’s interesting, isn’t it? That’s exactly the same effect that other illicit drugs such as heroin, and even marijuana, have on those who use those substances.
I doubt there are any Christian churches that would ordain the use of these drugs in even a casual social setting—or even to “calm the nerves” before bedtime. Is there any reason that alcohol should not be included in this list of drugs to avoid?
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Tom Norris replied: The SDA’s are propaganda experts and great legalists. They often use scare tactics to frighten their members into OC law keeping. This is because they are focused on Moses and the Old Covenant, not on the NC teachings of Christ.
Ex. 20:18 All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance.
Ex. 20:19 Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.”
Ex. 20:20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin.”
The Gospel is not based on fear, but the SDA’s don’t know this. They are OC Christians that act very much like the 1st century Jews that hated Christ. They do not understand, nor teach, the NC Gospel correctly, which is why they think it features grape juice, a drink that did not exist in the 1st century. Such an error means they have been following a false Christ and Gospel all these years.
Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Moreover, just because something may be dangerous if not properly used, it does not follow that it is sinful. Many things can be dangerous and fatal, like cars and airplanes, water, fire, and food. Should these things be banished?
This idea that alcohol is a poison is a diversion. Doctrine is not formed based on scare tactics or exaggerations, much less on the chemical makeup of food or drink. And, who said cannabis is sinful? Where are these man made rules coming from? Not the Gospel. No wonder so many leave Adventism; they are truly a sad, legalistic group.
1Cor. 8:8 But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat.
Let all understand: anyone that “avoids” wine, thinking it sinful, replacing it with processed grape juice at the Lord’s Supper, is repudiating Christ and misreading the Bible. The abstinence crowd has a very twisted view of world history, Judaism, and the Christian Faith. In fact, they have no idea how to even read the Bible, because they are just making it say whatever they want to hear. They are following a fabricated, mythical Christ, one that is not real. They do not know the genuine Christ or his Gospel, which features real wine.
Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
Matt. 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Matt. 26:29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
The Gospel is dangerous.
In the 1st century and beyond, one of the most dangerous things to do was stand up and follow the teachings of Jesus. The result was often brutal, even fatal. Many were martyred because of the Gospel, some burned at the stake, which makes for very blurry vision and cognitive impairment.
2Tim. 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
Acts 22:4 “I (Paul) persecuted this Way to the death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons,
Wine has been used as a medicine and religious drink since the beginning of time. It is not a great danger to life or property, but embracing Christ was both. Wine is not a poison, unless one drinks to dramatic excess. It is not sinful as the foolish and incompetent SDA’s teach. Wine is the drink of Eternal Life. Those that deny it, misunderstand the Gospel and deny Christ. They will never drink anything in the New Earth because they won’t be there.
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Doug Batchelor wrote: Two Types of Wine—Biblically Speaking. The word “wine” in the Bible sometimes refers to the new—or fresh juice of the grape; other times it is used to describe the aged or fermented product containing the drug alcohol.
The translators never used the term “grape juice.”
In the Hebrew text, the writers use different words to distinguish between the two. The word tîyrôsh is used for new unfermented wine, and yayin is generally used for fermented wine, but there were some exceptions (Isaiah 16:10). However, in the New Testament, only one Greek word is used to describe both fermented and fresh grape juice: oinis . But this shouldn’t be a problem. By simply understanding the context of the word in a passage, the appropriate meaning will usually surface. So unless the passage says old or new wine (as in Luke 5:37–39), the context will often tell us what kind of grape juice is being described.
One simple example occurs in Mark 2:22: “And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins” (NKJV). Obviously the new wine would be the fresh unfermented kind.
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Tom Norris replies: The SDA’s are full of double-talk. The reason why no translators have ever used the term “grape juice” for wine is because there is no such drink as grape juice in the ancient world. There was also no Television, cars, or airplanes either. I repeat, grape juice did not exist in the ancient world. Those who say otherwise are uneducated fools and liars.
While it is true there is a distinction between new wine and old wine, both will end up alcoholic wine. The moment grapes are crushed, the juice starts to ferment and change to wine. This is how wine works.
This is why Jesus teaches what he does about new wine needing to be in new wine skins so they could expand as the wine ferments. Jesus knew, and teaches, that wine is fermented. There is no grape juice at this point in history. Those that think otherwise are living in denial.
Wine in the Ancient World
http://www.churchhistory101.com/wine-alcohol-bible.php
Wine
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/wine/
Got Wine?
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/got-wine
Did Jesus Drink Wine?
http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp114.htm
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/does … cohol.html
Hebrew and Greek Words Translated as 'Wine'
https://www.cai.org/bible-studies/hebre … lated-wine
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Doug Batchelor continues to double-talk and say: Additionally, from the Old Testament, in Isaiah 65:8, we read, “As the new wine is found in the cluster, And one says, ‘Do not destroy it, For a blessing is in it…’” It is clear in both these passages that the new wine is simply grape juice.
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Tom Norris replied: Yes, “new wine” is grape juice, but only for a few moments. It quickly and naturally starts to ferment. The SDA’s are trying to change the history of world agriculture by pretending that wine in the Bible is unfermented grape juice. It was not. That is utter nonsense and false doctrine. New wine is young, fermented wine.
Go into any wine store and ask for “new wine.” They will not point you to the grape juice, (which they don’t sell), but to newly harvested wine called Beaujolais nouveau.
“Beaujolais nouveau is a purple-pink wine reflecting its youth, bottled only 6-8 weeks after harvest. The method of production means that there is very little tannin, and the wine can be dominated by such fruity ester flavours as banana, grape, strawberry, fig and pear drop.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaujolais_nouveau
http://www.beaujolaisnouveauday.com
It is time for the Adventist Community to stop being so brain dead and stupid about the Bible and world history. It is time for Doug Batchelor to repent for his anti-Gospel blasphemy. It is poison.
Hos. 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
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Doug Batchelor wrote: Confusing Verses Clarified; The whole of Scripture is clearly and adamantly against the consumption of alcohol, but human nature will look upon any textual ambiguity as a “loophole” to justify drinking alcohol.
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Tom Norris replied: The SDA’s are great liars and fools. Neither Judaism nor the Christian Faith was “adamantly against the consumption of alcohol.” This is true for a follower of Mohammad, not Christ. So we must assume that Batchelor the SDA Jew, is part Muslim, even as it is clear that he does not understand the teachings of Christ.
This position that wine in the Bible is grape juice is such a false and reckless statement, that it can only be called an outrageous, blatant lie. Shame on the SDA’s, no one should trust anything they teach. They are making up one myth and “loophole:” after another to prove their false, legalistic doctrines. They are denying what the Bible, and world history, clearly teaches; wine in the Bible is real wine. Period!
Alcohol – What the Bible Really Says**
One of the first mentions of wine in Scripture is by Melchizedek, priest of the Most High God at Salem (Jerusalem) during the time of Abram, whose name was later changed to Abraham.
Melchizedek “brought forth bread and wine” for Abram and his companions (Genesis 14:18). The Hebrew word translated wine in Genesis 14:18 is yayin. This word is used over 130 times in the Hebrew Bible to mean fermented wine, not grape juice.
This same beverage, when used excessively, causes drunkenness. Genesis 9:21 says that Noah drank too much yayin and became drunk. Lot also became drunk on this beverage (Genesis 19:30-36), and so did Nabal (1 Samuel 25:36). Nevertheless, God told his people to enjoy yayin at the yearly festivals (Deuteronomy 14:26).
In addition to using wine as a beverage, God also commanded the Levitical priests to include in the sacrifices a portion of wine (yayin) as a drink offering (Exodus 29:40). These scriptures make it clear that there can be a right and a wrong use of wine.
http://www.gci.org/series/alcohol/bible
Wine was such a common staple in Judaism, that Christ told a parable about a vineyard that represented the Kingdom of God. Vinards produce wine, not grape juice. Which why the invading Muslims tore out the vineyards in Israel. Why? Because they did not like grape juice? No. Because they taught wine was sinful, so the vineyards had to be destroyed.
Wine; by Rabbi Berel Wein
Wine plays a great role in Jewish life and tradition as well. It is considered a holy drink – the only liquid drink that, before consuming, has its own special blessing. Wine is part of all life cycle events in Jewish life. It appears at weddings and circumcisions, redemptions of the first-born and in Talmudic times at the house of the mourners.
http://www.torah.org/features/spirfocus/wine.html
Jews and wine: A timeline
http://www.jewishjournal.com/foodaism/i … a_timeline
The Israel Wine Producers Association
http://iwpa.com
Matt. 21:33 “Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
Matt. 21:34 “When the harvest time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine-growers to receive his produce.
Matt. 21:35 “The vine-growers took his slaves and beat one, and killed another, and stoned a third.
Matt. 21:36 “Again he sent another group of slaves larger than the first; and they did the same thing to them.
Matt. 21:37 “But afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
Matt. 21:38 “But when the vine-growers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’
Matt. 21:39 “They took him, and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Matt. 21:40 “Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers?”
Matt. 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.
The fruit of an ancient vineyard was not, not, not, grape juice. It was wine, wine, wine. Those that think otherwise, and teach others such gross error, will be thrown out of the kingdom of God. Making way for those that will follow Christ without excuse or argument.
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Doug Batchelor wrote: An example of this reasoning is the wedding in Cana, where Jesus turned water into wine. “When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, ‘Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!’” (John 2:9, 10).
Those who support the intake of alcohol suggest this must have been alcoholic wine—after all, it was a wedding, and every wedding has wine—right? But let’s pause to consider the implications. There were six pots for Jesus to fill, and each of those would hold 20 to 30 gallons. That’s up to 180 gallons of beverage!
Are we to believe that Jesus made 180 gallons of a destructive drug—enough to get every guest drunk and launch this new marriage with slurring lips and staggering feet? Indeed, He would have been acting against His own Word! (Habakkuk 2:15; Luke 12:46; Ephesians 5:18). If we approach this passage relying on the whole of Scripture, we must surely come to the conclusion that Jesus made unfermented wine—and the governor of the feast complimented the groom on its pure quality. (John 2:4, 6, 10. See also Mark 1:24, 2 Samuel 16:10).
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Tom Norris replied: Wine in the Bible is alcoholic. There is no use denying what is so obvious, clear, and supported by every serious scholar and Rabbi in the history of the church AND Judaism, including Jesus. Wine is not a “destructive drug,” rather it has numerous health benefits, even as it is a “holy drink” for the Jews, and also for the Christians as it represents the blood of Christ and his death on the cross for our sins. It is the drink, not of death, but of Eternal Life. Those that are confused on this point have made a fatal mistake.
Processed grape juice, is a theological fraud, it represents legalism and a false view of Judaism and the Gospel. Abstinence is a doctrine that would find approval from the Muslims, not the Jews or the Christians, which means it is very anti-Christ and very wrong.
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The dishonest Doug Batchelor wrote: Whatever the Soul Longs For; There are additional passages of Scripture that at first glance might lead a person to think drinking a little fermented wine in moderation might be biblically condoned. In the next few sections, we will address some of the verses that are sometimes construed to condone fermented wine, when in fact they do nothing of the sort.
“And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household” (Deuteronomy 14:26). The phrase “strong drink” is translated from the word shekar. A Shekar is condemned by Solomon as a “brawler” (Proverbs 20:1). And Isaiah pronounces a woe upon those who “run after strong drink(shekar)” (Isaiah 5:11).
Strong drink was also prohibited from the priests (Leviticus 10:9–11) and Nazarites (Numbers 6:2–4; Judges 13:3–5). So how could God so clearly condemn the use of “strong drink” in one place in the Bible, and yet approve of it in another place?
Like the word yayin (“wine”), shekar is a generic term that could refer to either an alcoholic beverage, as noted above, or to a sweet, unfermented drink as is indicated in Isaiah 24:9. Shekar is also defined by the The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopedia as: “Sweet Wine or Syrup. Shechar, luscious, saccharin drink or sweet syrup, especially sugar or honey of dates or of the palm-tree” or “Date or Palm Wine in its fresh and unfermented state.” In fact, “sugar” and “cider” are derivatives from shekar.
Therefore, since shekar could mean either a sweet unfermented drink or an intoxicating drink, we must interpret the word according to the context of the verse. Would God encourage the use of tithe money to purchase a beverage that causes intoxication, health problems and diminishing of moral capacities? The only reasonable conclusion is that this verse is referring to the sweet palm-wine beverage in its fresh and unfermented state.
Even if one refuses to accept this translation of the word, keep in mind, the verse in Deuteronomy 14:26 never tells them it is okay to drink this beverage. Rather, it is addressing how they were to transport offerings to present to the Lord when traveling long distances. Moses was recommending they carry money with them rather than to haul the offerings of beasts, grain, and wine long distances. When they arrived they were to purchase whatever they needed for offerings. The animal sacrifices could be eaten but they were commanded to pour the drink offerings on the ground. “And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering” (Numbers 28:7).
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Tom Norris replies: Today, the abstinence crowd is still relying on propaganda from the Temperance Movement. Doug Batchelor, while a Jew, is not a scholar, much less an expert on ancient Hebrew. He is deliberately using false and discredited, 19th century double-talk to make his blasphemous case. He is a great deceiver.
Anyone that is honest can read the Bible and see that wine is alcoholic. No need to become a Hebrew linguist, as the abstinence fools pretend. The Jews wrote the Bible. Any Rabbi will tell you the same thing and so too most everyone in the world except a small cultic group of legalists from a number of Protestant denominations, including the SDA’s. Such are making fools of themselves and a mockery of the Bible, which they do not understand.
This crowd should join the flat earth society. That makes as much sense as pretending that wine in the Bible is grape juice. They welcome the delusional.
Welcome to the Flat Earth Society.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/
See:
Temperance and Prohibition Era Propaganda: A Study in Rhetoric
http://library.brown.edu/cds/temperance/essay.html
Temperance movement in the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperance … ted_States
http://www.librarycompany.org/ardentspi … intro.html
http://www.christianresearcher.com/uplo … entary.pdf
Doctrine is not based on word games or the “reasonable conclusions” of the spiritually blind, nor by ignoring mountains of biblical, historical, and scientific evidence that disproves abstinence. The SDA’s are promoting many myths from the Word of God. They are not trying to be fair with the biblical or scientific data about wine any more than they are being honest about their other doctrines, like the IJ or tithing. They have become great deceivers for those foolish, and uneducated enough, to believe their double-talk.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
The Jews do not support what the SDA’s teach about wine in the Bible. They know their own history better than the dishonest SDA’s. While the Priests and Judges were prohibited from drinking wine, it was only when they were serving in the Temple or hearing a case. In other words, no drinking on the Job, which is what some of them did, and they died as a result. There was no rule or law that prevented the priests from drinking wine when they were not working, as the dishonest Doug Batchelor pretends. Judaism does not, not, not, teach abstinence, nor does any Jew think wine in the Bible is grape juice.
The Talmud Teaches
Basing himself on the fact that the death of Nadab and Abihu is followed by the injunction against priests drinking wine or strong drink when officiating, R. Simeon attributes their death to the fact that they entered the sanctuary while in a state of intoxication (Lev. R. 12:1). Judges must not render decisions after drinking wine (Er. 64a). As a result, judges were forbidden to eat dates because of their possible intoxicating effects (Ket. 10b). The judges of the *Sanhedrin had to abstain from wine during the entire hearing of a capital case (Sanh. 5:1; Sanh. 42a).
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … 05423.html
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js … netoc.html
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Doug Batchelor said: What About the Last Supper? Some argue that if Jesus partook of wine at the Last Supper, and even employed it as a symbol of His purifying blood, then how can drinking a little wine—even just casually—be wrong? Indeed, the very seeds of the New Testament were watered with wine from the Last Supper. There is no arguing that Jesus used wine at the Last Supper, but it is a mistake to assume that the wine was of the fermented variety.
“For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom” (Matthew 26:28–29, emphasis mine). Indeed, here Jesus uses the new wine as a symbol of His new covenant with His people. Jesus also calls wine the “fruit of the vine.” However, after wine goes through the process of fermentation, it is no more the fruit of the vine than yogurt is the fruit of a cow.
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Tom Norris replied: Let all understand; there is no “mistake” taking place by those who oppose abstinence --Wine in the Bible, and in the Gospels, and in all ancient cultures and religions, means real wine; not, not, not, grape juice. This fact, fact, fact, is the point that carries the day and ends the debate, at least for those that are seeking truth and want to honestly follow the teachings of the genuine Christ.
The abstinence crowd has become drunk on myth; they stagger to uphold false and absurd, doctrine, blind to the facts that prove them wrong. But the facts still remain. They are following a false, legalistic, worthless Christ, not the genuine Good Shepherd of the NT. Like the Pharisees that refused to admit Christ was a great healer from God, Doug Batchelor also denies the facts he does not like, and thus he fights the Gospel like the Jews of old.
Wine & Judaism
Passover wine must be kosher – that is, properly made according to Jewish dietary laws. Interestingly, no leavened foods are allowed at Passover, though alcoholic wine is. The ancient Jews had no understanding that leavened bread and wine are linked through yeasts. The difference is that leavening must be added to bread for it to rise; for wine, natural yeasts are already on the grape skins, and these start fermenting when the grape is crushed.
Wine is also required at other Jewish ceremonies besides Passover: for example, at least two glasses are drunk at weddings, and one glass at a circumcision. Every Friday evening Sabbath (Shabbat) meal starts with a Kiddush, or prayer, over the wine.
Morris Chafetz, M.D., a Jewish psychiatrist in Washington, DC who founded the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), remarked, “I had my first drink when I was a week old. When Jewish boys are circumcised, they are given a little bit of wine mixed with water. It’s part of the ceremony.” It is socially acceptable to get a little tipsy at a Passover Seder, but since this is a family celebration, things don’t get out of hand. At the raucous holiday of Purim, Jews are expected to drink to an inebriated state. “Once a year you have to get drunk,” said Israel’s Grape Man, Haim Gan. “You have to drink until you’re not yourself.”
What Christians refer to as the Last Supper was actually a Passover Seder – the food served specifically mentions bread and wine (though strangely, there is no mention of a lamb). Red wine looks like blood, and Jesus drew the connection.
“Then [Jesus] took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to [the twelve Disciples], and they all drank from it. ‘This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,’ he said to them. ‘I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God.’” (Mark 14:23-25. The story is told similarly in Matthew 26:27-29, and Luke 22:20.)
Wine took on a mystical quality representing Jesus’s blood. According to the Catholic Church, the wine literally becomes the blood of Christ during the Eucharist, an event called Transubstantiation.
For those who still insist that Jesus’s wine at the Last Supper was somehow unfermented, consider this: the grape harvest was six months earlier. There was no possible way for grape juice to be available at Passover without fermentation getting in the way, as fresh grapes won’t last that long. (Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch didn’t invent the pasteurization process to create “unfermented wine” until 1869. That’s when Welch’s Grape Juice was born, and he did it specifically so Protestants could have grape juice at communion.)
Jesus’s wine was fermented wine.
https://sites.google.com/site/filipinob … dailybread
While Jesus drank real wine, like most all Jews, after his ascension he temporarily embraced a self-imposed moratorium. So here is where there is some “abstinence” in the Gospel Story. Christ is not drinking wine now; it is the church that has been instructed by Jesus to drink wine at the Eucharist.
After the Second Coming, Jesus will join the church of all ages and celebrate the Gospel with real wine. (There is no religious drink called grape juice). Those who repudiate Christ and refuse real wine on earth will not receive any drink in heaven. They will not be there. No Eternal Life for the abstinence crowd because they have manipulated the Word, embracing a false Gospel and a grape juice Jesus who is a fraud.
Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
Matt. 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Matt. 26:29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
Those who think Jesus did not, and would not drink real wine, do not know Christ or understand the Bible, much less the Gospel or church history. They are also ignorant about agriculture and world history, including Judaism, which is the context for all Gospel doctrine. This utter lack of knowledge, combined with their prideful refusal to repent, has left this arrogant crowd blind and doomed. They will not be saved as they assume.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Christ has instructed all that follow him to drink real wine in his name. Those that refuse the law of Christ, which is the teaching of Christ and substitute coffee, tea, or grape juice, or anything else for wine, will not enter heaven.
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Jesus critics had a problem with the company he kept. They drank a lot of real wine, which Christ did not deny. But yet, Jesus says these sinners will be saved, while the stern, legalistic critics would be not pass the judgment.
Matt. 11:19 “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”
Matt. 11:24 “Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”
Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
During this discussion with his critics about drinking (wine), Jesus made a warning about certain types of people. He said those religious leaders that appear to be “wise and intelligent,” like Doug Batchelor, are not to be trusted. They don’t know the Gospel, even though they claim otherwise. Christ said: the sinners in Sodom will fare better than the legalists.
Jesus teaches that it is the gifted ones in the church that are blind to the Gospel, unable to comprehend the Word. Which explains why Batchelor, and the other paid apologists teach that wine in the Bible is grape juice, - when such a myth is easily disproven. The Gospel is incomprehensible to such self-centered, legalistical types that have changed the word of God to fit their false views.
Let all understand: The Gospel has been “hidden” from the dishonest, legalistic, and sour faced, abstinence crowd. They are promoting a worthless, fruit juice based religion for fools. Beware those hypocrites that teach a false Gospel.
Matt. 7:15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
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Doug Batchelor wrote: Furthermore, we also know that the Passover meal was to be free from all forms of leaven (Exodus 12:19). Fermentation is the identical process of leavening! If the bread was to be free from leaven, which is a type of sin, then we can be sure that the wine, a symbol of Jesus blood, used at the Last Supper would also be free from the poison of alcohol. The perfect, sinless blood of Jesus would never be symbolized by corrupt and putrefying old wine.
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Tom Norris replied: First, there is no “furthermore,” as if Doug Batchleor is making a number of winning points. This is not the case. Every point he makes has been proven silly and wrong, and so too this one about pretending that the dietary laws of Judaism prevent wine making or drinking. This is absurd and very false. The abstinence crowd must be drunk to think they can change thousands of years of Jewish history with these wild and reckless claims about wine being grape juice, and still think they are winning this discussion.
Let all understand: The Jews viewed the process of wine making different from baking bread. The yeast that makes wine, is different from bread making,-- it is not, not, not, forbidden by Jewish food laws. Wine was not considered a bad or sinful drink at Passover or any other time. Ask any Jew.
“Passover wine must be kosher – that is, properly made according to Jewish dietary laws. Interestingly, no leavened foods are allowed at Passover, though alcoholic wine is. The ancient Jews had no understanding that leavened bread and wine are linked through yeasts. The difference is that leavening must be added to bread for it to rise; for wine, natural yeasts are already on the grape skins, and these start fermenting when the grape is crushed.”
Question: Why is it permitted to drink wine on Passover when it is fermented with yeast? Isn't yeast forbidden on Passover?
Answer: Of the hundreds of species of yeast, the Passover prohibition only applies to yeast which is a product of one of the following five grains: wheat, barley, oat, spelt, or rye. Yeast which is the product of grapes, or its sugars, is not considered chametz (leavened food).
http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover … -yeast.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_wine
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/js … netoc.html
http://www.crossdrinker.com/2011/wine/4 … over-wine/
Shame on Batchelor and the SDA’s for being so utterly wrong and dishonest about how the Jews viewed wine. We “know” that alcoholic wine is not forbidden by the Jews, and that the fermentation process is NOT the same as leavening bread. Wine (fermented) in no way violates Jewish dietary laws. Such a claim is outrageous, proving that the SDA’s refuse to have a dishonest discussion about wine in the Bible. They are wolves, deceiving the sheep.
Let all understand: Doug Batchelor is the world’s greatest liar and con man. An SDA / Jewish wolf for all to see. The doctrine of abstinence is an outrageously false doctrine from Islam. There is no excuse for anyone to teach what is so false and against the Bible and the teachings of Christ.
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Doug Batchelor wrote: Jesus compared His pure teachings to wholesome new wine (Matthew 9:17). Indeed, all corrupted doctrines are likened to the fermented wine of Babylon! Babylon was identified as a place “with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication” (Rev 17:2).
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Tom Norris replied; Jesus “pure” teachings INCLUDE real wine. New wine is only grape juice for a day or so. Then it naturally turns into “wholesome” and healing, alcoholic wine. Real wine is all that was available in the ancient world. The Jews drank real wine and so too did Jesus. Mr. Batchelor is a great and foolish liar.
This myth about wine being grape juice is absurd, dishonest, and outrageous. Woe to those who manipulate the word and teach a false Gospel. Doug Batchelor is a wolf, pretending he knows and speaks for the Good Shepherd. This confused and arrogant Jew knows nothing of Christ or his Gospel. He is a great fraud and false prophet.
While there is good wine and bad wine in the Bible; there was no debate between grape juice and wine, as if there were a choice. This is a fabrication from the abstinence crowd. A worthless diversion from the facts that prove them wrong. Wine in the Bible, new or old, is real wine. Those that think otherwise, are blind to the Word, unable to comprehend the Gospel.
John 2:9 When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter *called the bridegroom,
John 2:10 and said to him, “Every man serves the good wine first, and when the people have drunk freely, then he serves the poorer wine; but you have kept the good wine until now.”
Neither the Jews, nor anyone else, celebrated weddings or religious festivals with grape juice. They had no choice in the matter. There was no such drink. Vineyards produced wine, real wine. Jesus made the best wine. It was not grape juice, but real wine.
Wine is identified by its country of origin and region, as well as the type of grape. Each country has its’ own wine industry, with its own distinctive wines. Wine from Bayblon, which is a bad place, would contain the properties of that country, which in this case meant false doctrines, etc. This would be contrasted to the wine of Israel, which contained true doctrines.
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Doug Batchelor, a Jewish wolf in lamb’s clothing, wrote: Another example: “But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's delicacies, nor with the wine (Of Babylon) which he drank” (Daniel 1:8).
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Tom Norris replied: One cannot extrapolate abstinence from such a passage. The proper way to understand any topic in the Bible is to systematically gather all the passages. Those that ignore what proves them wrong are only showing that they are not honest with the Word. The abstinence crowd often takes passages out of context as they try in vain to defend one false doctrine after another.
Doug Batchelor has made a career of exploiting peoples ignorance of the Bible, and this is what he is doing about wine. He sounds so convincing and educated, and he uses so many texts to back up his views. Too bad most all of what he says is a blatant lie. Shame on him and the SDA’s. They mock the Word and refute the Gospel, making fools of themselves for all to see.
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Batchelor Continues: Was Jesus a Drunkard? Pharisees frequently accused Jesus of being a winebibber, drunkard and glutton. They also said He had a devil and blasphemed God, among other things. We know He wasn’t a glutton or demon-possessed blasphemer! So if these things are not true, why should we assume that our Lord was a drinker as indicated by the Pharisees, a group of Jesus’ most-outward adversaries well known for their questionable theology?
They were merely contrasting His lifestyle with the austerity of John the Baptist, a practicing Nazarite, who abstained from anything of the vine and ate locusts and wild honey (Numbers 6:3; Luke 7:33–34, 1:15; John 8:48–52; Mark 2:7; Matthew 3:4).
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Tom Norris replied: While John the Baptist seemed to embrace abstinence, it is clear that Jesus did not. While his enemies tried to slander and exaggerate his drinking, he nonetheless did drink real wine, as was normal in the Jewish culture. This argument by Batchelor is childish, underscoring that he knows not the Gospel.
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Doug Batchelor said: When Jesus hung parched on the cross, Roman soldiers offered him fermented wine mingled with myrrh. But as soon as Jesus tasted it and recognized it was fermented, He refused it. If Jesus refused this beverage even as His body was tormented with extraordinary thirst, why would He have drank wine normally (Matthew 27:34)? (And more to the point, why then should we?)
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Tom Norris replied: Wow! How does this apologist sleep at night? What a con artist! Contrary to Batchelors outrageous and self-serving declarations, Jesus was not offered drinkable wine by the Romans, who were torturing him. Rather, a foul tasting, vinegar based, narcotic drink for those being executed was offered. This was not drinkable wine whatsoever, much less a teaching moment by Christ to warn the church about the evils of drinking. The cross does not teach the doctrine of abstinence, and woe to those so foolish to think so. Shame on Batchelor for playing such blasphemous games with the Gospel Story. Only a skilled wolf would even try to use Christ’s Passion to promote such false, legalist, and twisted doctrine. Let all beware the SDA wolf called Doug Batchelor. He promotes the teaching of Islam, along with a false Gospel and worthless Christ.
Matt. 27:34 they gave Him wine to drink mixed with gall; and after tasting it, He was unwilling to drink.
John 19:30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.
“Luke is the only gospel writer to omit the detail of sour wine mix that was offered to Jesus on a reed,[45] while only Mark and John describe Joseph actually taking the body down off the cross.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus
Most probably, both gall and myrrh were added to the vinegar. The text does not explicitly state this, nor does it exclude the possibility. Nevertheless, "The ancients used to infuse myrrh into wine to give it a more agreeable fragrance and flavour."1 This means that it is quite possible that the vinegar already had myrrh in it as would be expected among Roman soldiers, and gall was later added. Each writer focused on a different aspect.
http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matt … l-or-myrrh
A mixture of wine and gall was commonly given to criminals before their execution in order to ease some of their suffering. As an ex-chemistry teacher, I taught in my classes that all poisons are BITTER but acids are SOUR. Christ likely refused this drink knowing that its bitter taste meant it was more of a poison than a pain killer. He did not want to die from poisoning or have his senses numbed while on the cross. He knew that He had to shed his blood in order for Him to become the supreme sacrifice for the sins of all man, and He refused to take the easy way out of it. The offering of this concoction by the Romans, however, was a fulfillment of a prophecy given by King David. While in the depths of a painful trial David cried that his enemies gave him only something bitter to quench his thirst (Psalm 69:16 - 21).
http://www.biblestudy.org/question/why- … cross.html
When Jesus arrived at Golgotha, the Bible says, “They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall...” (Matthew 27:34). According to Jewish law, if a man was about to be executed, he could request a narcotic, mingled together with wine, which would help alleviate the pain of his execution. The word “gall” in this verse refers to this special painkiller.
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/online … ified.aspx
The SDA’s need to stop with these dishonest games. The fermentation of wine was not sinful or wrong for the Jews. Jesus does not teach abstinence at any time, much less from the cross. This fabrication by those that should know better is wicked and outrageous. Doug Batchelor abuses the Word at every opportunity. He is a great liar, as are all those that try to defend and promote Old Covenant Adventism and the false doctrine of abstinence.
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Doug Batchelor writes: Alcohol: The Bible Hall of Shame. The first reference to wine is found in Genesis when Noah, after the flood, created the original fermented grape juice. “Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent” (Genesis 9:21). The sad record is that Noah drank and stumbled around naked and shamefully exposed himself to his sons. This first experiment with a new drug ended with a scathing curse falling on Noah’s posterity.
Lot also drank, and he was therefore easily seduced into having incestuous relations with his daughters. “So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose” (Genesis 19:33). The offspring of this relationship became the nations of Moab and Ammon, the mortal enemies of God’s people. And there is no shortage of evidence today that alcohol often leads to sexual immorality—such as adultery, rape, and incest.
Then there is the infamous experience when the children of Israel drank alcohol, stripped themselves naked and worshiped a golden calf (Exodus 32:6, 25). This fermented “church social” ended in a horrible massacre.
Amnon, another drinker and the son of David, raped his half-sister Tamar. Because of this incestuous act, he lost his life at the hands of his enraged brother while intoxicated (2 Samuel 13:28).
These are only a few examples. For more about the terrible repercussions involving alcohol in the Bible, look at 2 Samuel 13:28, Job 1:13–19. Truly, when one considers the Biblical record of fermented drink, you have to wonder why would any genuine Christian argue in its defense!
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Tom Norris replies: Gospel doctrine is not based on the bad things that people may do, but on what Christ teaches. So it is futile, and very dishonest, to support abstinence by such a hermeneutic. Today, it is those that refute the Gospel teachings of Christ, like Doug Batchelor and all the SDA’s, that belong in the Hall of Shame. So too this legalistic 19th century crowd that pushed the Country into Prohibition.
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Doug Batchelor wrote: Fermented Wine Brings Woe: The word “woe” is not used commonly today in the English vernacular. The word means deep distress or misery—as from grief and/or wretchedness. The Bible is found using the word in many different places; not surprisingly, the use of alcohol is often the reason why the word is used!
“Woe to those who rise early in the morning, That they may follow intoxicating drink; Who continue until night, till wine inflames them!” (Isaiah 5:11).
“Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who hath complaints? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who linger long at the wine, Those who go in search of mixed wine.” (Proverbs 23:29–30).
“Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, Pressing him to your bottle, Even to make him drunk, That you may look on his nakedness!” (Habakkuk 2:15).
Does the Christian need any more condemnation of alcohol consumption than this? A very safe and simple rule for these issues is: “When in doubt, leave it out!”
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Tom Norris replied: The greatest of all “Woes” is to misunderstand the NT teachings of Christ. The doctrine of abstinence is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ. Woe to those that misrepresent the Gospel and promote false doctrine. Woe to those that follow and promote a false, grape juice drinking Christ.
Luke 17:1 He said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!
Matt. 24:24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the 3elect.
Woe to Doug Batchelor and the dishonest, legalistic, SDA’s. They are doomed unless they repent and embrace the New Covenant Teachings of Jesus, which includes drinking real wine in his name.
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Doug Batchelor writes: A Matter of Health: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's” (1 Corinthians 6:20 KJV). From liver disease to ulcers to dementia, an almost endless list of health problems have been linked to the drinking of alcohol.
Alcohol (also grain alcohol) is a toxin that severely affects the central nervous system when ingested. Most people know that even moderate “social drinking” destroys brain cells.
If a person holds a small swig of whiskey in their mouth for about ten minutes, various parts of the interior of their mouth will become blistered. If you have them blindfolded and have them taste various beverages—for instance, water, vinegar, or milk—you will find that they are incapable of distinguishing one from another. This experiment proves to a certainty that alcohol is not only a violent irritant, but also a narcotic.
I think even the strongest advocate of alcohol must honestly admit that its consumption certainly does not glorify God in their body; instead, it slowly destroys body and mind, which is a clear violation of the Sixth Commandment. Just as cigarette smoking is suicide on the installment plan, so is alcohol—which is a leading killer in the United States.
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Tom Norris responds: Dishonest scare tactics are not part of the Gospel. Today, we live in the 21st century; a time when we know more about health and wellness then ever before. While many in the 19th century were certain that alcohol was evil and poisonous, the scientific data no longer supports such negative, naive, assumptions.
In fact, while tobacco is a known killer, study after study proves the many benefits of moderate drinking. In fact, those that abstain, do not, not, not, live longer lives. It turns out that abstinence is for those that want a shorter life. And for those that don’t want Eternal Life. Who saw that coming?
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Batchelor, the wolf continues: Also consider that there is an almost endless selection of other good things to drink that nourishes the body and mind. So why would any Christian want to gamble like this—risking their health, witness, family and eternal life to argue in defense of this destructive substance?
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Tom Norris replies: Why would anyone want to gamble with the Gospel and go against what Christ teaches? Why not do as Christ teaches? THAT is the definition of “good.” Those that honestly trust and follow Christ, will not second-guess him, much less change what he teaches for any reason.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Jesus has instructed the church to drink real wine in honor of the Gospel. Those that refuse, will not receive Eternal Life.
1Cor. 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
1Cor. 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
1Cor. 11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
Those that use grape juice in place of natural wine in the Eucharist, -- have fallen from grace. They are drinking the Gospel cup in an “unworthy,” incorrect, and rebellious manner. They have dared change the meaning of wine in the Bible over and over, forcing it to say what they want to hear.
Such blasphemers are doomed. They are wasting their time trying to pretend they are following Christ and going to heaven. They are do not know Christ or his Gospel, which is why they will never drink real wine with Christ in the New Earth.
Doug Batchelor goes on to make one false point after another, even claiming, like a Muslim, that alcohol is “the most deadly substance on earth.” Why? Because he is a great legalist that thinks wine is sinful. More than that, he thinks most everything is sin and thus wine will weaken ones attempt at living a perfect life of law keeping.
Simply put, the abstinence crowd are great legalists, they do not comprehend the Gospel teachings of Christ, which is why they follow Mohammed’s teaching about wine. The SDA’s have a great fear of wine, which includes an Irrational hatred, combined with feelings of panic, terror, and dread. It makes their knees weak and elevates their heart rates. There is a name for such a condition:
Oenophobia- Fear of wines
http://www.phobiasource.com/oenophobia-fear-of-wines/
Oenophobia
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/o/oenophobia/intro.htm
Oenophobia: An exaggerated or irrational dislike or hatred of wine.
To hate wine is to hate the Gospel Story, which features real wine. Jesus describes such people as Doug Batchelor as being blind and naked, unsaved unless they repent and learn the Gospel, which featured drink is real wine, not man made, processed, grape juice.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
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Doug Batchelor wrote: It is also a well-documented fact that drinking even the smallest quantity of alcohol impairs reactions and weakens normal inhibitions. Put simply: It lowers a Christian’s resolve to resist temptation. Why would any Christian want to make it easier for the devil to snare them? Many men and women have awaken after a night baptized by a few glasses of wine or bottles of beer to discover they have violated the Seventh Commandment and forever scarred their lives and reputations.
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Tom Norris replied: It is obvious that Doug Batchelor is a great Old Covenant legalist, one that is struggling hard to keep from sinning. Not only does he think wine sinful, he also thinks it leads to one evil after another, and for some reason, especially adultery. As if wine has the power to take away our freedom to think and control ourselves. (The fact of the matter is this; a large number of SDA ministers routinely commit adultery, and wine has nothing to do with this epidemic of evil.)
The greatest of all snares from the Devil is to confuse people about the law and the Gospel. Today, it is clear that the SDA church, and their paid apologists, like Doug Batchelor, are following a false and mythical Christ of their own making. Too much Grape Juice is apparently destroying their minds and making them stupid. Let all beware of those that are paid to deceive, they do not know Christ or his Word. These religious frauds will pay a horrible price at the judgment.
James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
Summary
1 Wine in the ancient world, and in the Bible, is alcoholic wine. It is not grape juice, nor is it “unholy” or “unclean” in either Judaism or the Christian Faith as the SDA’s pretend.
2. It is the Muslims that embrace the doctrine of Abstinence, not the church. Islam teaches that wine and alcohol is “unclean and impure.” The foolish SDA’s have embraced the teachings of Islam, for which they must repent.
3. Jesus does not teach abstinence; rather he commands all his followers to drink real wine in his name because it is the symbolic drink of Eternal Life. Those that refuse, are rejecting the Gospel and disobeying Christ. Jesus or Mohammed; which one do you follow?
4. The doctrine of abstinence is anti-Semitic, anti-Gospel, and pro- Islamic. Jesus does not teach such a doctrine and those who think otherwise are following a false, worthless Christ, even Mohammed. They are enemies of Christ, being indoctrinated by wolves in sheep’s clothing, like the confused Jew, Doug Batchelor. Let all the sheep beware.
5. Abstinence was never a doctrine of the early church, or even in the Roman Catholic Church. It is a 19th century Protestant doctrine made possible by the invention of pasteurized commercial grape juice by Thomas Welch. This false doctrine, which was not embraced by either the RCC or the Lutherans, became a fad that swept through many churches, including the Temperance minded SDA’s. (The reason the SDA’s backed away from the Temperance Movement was because they were also promoting Sunday laws.)
6. Wine in moderation has proven to be healthful and life extending. It is not bad, but good for the body and the soul. Modern science proves that those who embrace abstinence do not live as long as moderate drinkers. Nor, theologically speaking, will they be granted Eternal Life for their misreading of the Bible and following a false, wine hating Christ.
7. While many assume that drinking is a sin, it is the doctrine of abstinence that is actually blatant sin against the Gospel; a slap in the face of Christ and a refutation of what he teaches. Those that follow this Muslim doctrine are promoting a false Christ with a worthless religion that is based on processed grape juice. A drink that did not exist at the time of Christ.
Let all understand: according to Christ,---wine is the official drink of the Gospel. It represents Jesus’ blood and our Eternal Life. Let those who follow the genuine Christ drink real wine with praise and thanksgiving for their salvation. Those that refuse are following Mohammad, not the Bible or Christ.
Matt. 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
Matt. 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Luke 22:17 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves;
Let everyone understand: Those that refuse to drink and “share” real wine with their fellow believers, will not be forgiven their sins, much less be given a place in the Kingdom of God, --a place where real wine will be served in the name of Christ.
Those SDA’s that have embraced a “grape juice Jesus” have made a fatal error. They are following a fraud. They had better repent and run from those that are deceiving them about wine and many other doctrines.
It is time for the Adventist Community, as well as the rest of Laodicea, to repent of their many false doctrines and start following the genuine Christ of the Gospels. Only what Jesus teaches is doctrine for the church. The real Jesus drinks real wine, so too do those that follow him.
I hope this helps those honestly trying to understand this Gospel issue. As for the many wolves that abound, like Doug Batchelor, let all the sheep beware.
Matt. 26:27 And when Jesus had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism & All Experts.Com
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The Truth About Wine
The discovery of truth can be painful as well as enlightening. Many that sincerely claim to follow Christ by refusing to drink alcohol, are stunned to learn they have been following Mohammed all these years.
What a great shock this must be! However, some will not accept such truth, preferring denial, tradition, and myth.
When it comes to drinking, Jesus does not teach what many claim for him. In fact, when it comes to most doctrines, few have understood Christ correctly. This is the great sin of Laodicea; they are blind to the Gospel teachings of Christ, unsaved and very foolish.
Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rejection of Truth
Here is the negative response from the person that asked the question about drinking. Apparently, Frank does not want to admit his doctrinal error, much less that he has embraced the teachings of Islam.
Frank said: I am really surprised of the repetitive language (leaning toward hatred) used toward other groups versus addressing the question in a professional and scholarly manner. I'm sorry, this was not what I was expecting.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … inking.htm
Tom said: Gospel Truth is often surprising and unwanted. Consequently, many turn away and attack the messenger because they prefer myths and tradition to Gospel truth. They also prefer religious teachers that will tell them what they want to hear. Sad.
The teachings of Christ are clear and discoverable for those that honestly seek truth. But for those not honest of heart, - they will fall prey to false teachers and Laodicean double-talkers, like the SDA’s.
Matt. 7:7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Paul’s warning:
2Tim. 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim. 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
Time to Repent
It is time for the Laodicean Church, which includes the SDA Community, to repent for their many false doctrines, including this foolish myth that claims wine in the Bible is grape juice.
The Lord’s Supper, aka, the Eucharist, cannot be correctly observed with coffee, tea, or grape juice. Only genuine wine can be used to celebrate the Gospel; no substitutes are allowed.
Matt. 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
Matt. 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.
Matt. 26:29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
1Cor. 11:25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
Wine in the Bible
It is clear that wine in the Bible is not fruit juice. Those that say otherwise, - have embraced a false and worthless Gospel, even as they show their ignorance of world and church history.
Wine is the Gospel drink of choice by Christ to represent his blood, by which we are saved. Who dares say otherwise and change the most sacred of all Christian rituals into a children’s juice drink?
When it comes to the genuine Christ and the authentic Eucharist, there can be no drink substituted in place of real wine, much less a processed, unnatural, manipulated drink that represents legalism and the teachings of Islam.
Wine is hardly poison, as the abstinence crowd teaches, rather, it is the drink of Eternal Life. Those who say otherwise, have repudiated Christ and the Gospel, even as they obey the teachings of Islam. Such will not receive any physical or spiritual benefits, much less praise from Christ at the Judgment for embracing abstinence. The abstinence crowd is being very foolish to try and blend Islam with the Christian Faith.
John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
John 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
The doctrine of abstinence is poisonous doctrine for the blind and foolish. Those that advocate abstinence are committing sin against Christ and his Gospel. They may think they are more righteous, obedient, and pure than others, and that such legalism will gain them heaven, but they are only showing their fatal ignorance of the Bible and the Gospel teachings of Christ.
They have condemned others for following Christ and drinking wine; now they are self-condemned, blind to the Word and to the genuine Gospel with its’ featured drink.
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Matt. 26:27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Clear Word vs Bible: Drinking Wine
This is not a topic that I have specifically blogged on before. Maybe some day I will, but even in just doing this post it should be pretty clear what the Bible actually teaches on drinking wine. To give some context, SDA believe that it is a sin to drink wine or alcohol of any kind. When you are baptized into Adventism you have to sign off on a commitment to abstain from alcohol and tobacco.
Even a casual reader of the Bible would see there are some obvious problems with this teaching. How do you explain Jesus turning water into wine? And a list of other such things. As an SDA I was taught that every single time the Bible mentions wine in a negative light it is talking about alcoholic wine, and every time it is talking about wine in a positive light it really means grape juice. That’s just absurd on the face of it.
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