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To all readers:
Tom Norris said: Tom said: There are scores and scores of Gospel verses where Jesus teaches, defends, and promotes his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. This includes a number of Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Pharisees. Why do you pretend otherwise?The fact that you don’t think such a 1st century record exists, only makes you appear delusional and uneducated. The Gospels are available to all. Those who refuse to read, study, and embrace what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath will be banished from the Kingdom of God. They are blind to the Gospel, having chosen to follow others that are also blind.
Bob Sands said: This does not equal a command or mandate for the New Covenant. You have been able to supply such so peddle your wares elsewhere. Christ as Lord of the Sabbath can do with the Sabbath what He wishes with His authority. He chose to fulfill it. As has been previously quoted in Matthew where "soul rest" is promised if one comes to Christ. This is the ultimate goal of the Christian.
The Gospel, no matter how much you protest, were pre New Covenant. Jesus words were anticipatory of the New Covenant/Kingdom of God. The Last Supper proves this when introducing the Lord's Supper the night before He dies for our sins. At that time the curtain in the Temple was torn from top to bottom and nothing in the "Most Holy Place" was holy again, including the Ten Commandment. Only restated law and commands are part of the New Covenant. The Sabbath is not one of those tenets. The discussions with the Pharisees was because they had constructed manmade laws that the Lord of the Sabbath said were perverse.
Tom said: I teach an Every day Sabbath. He is obsessed with a day being necessary in the Gospel. There is none. He fulfilled the Sabbath in His flesh, Col 2:16,17 and the Sabbath of the Old Covenant was listed as ceremonial in Lev 23 at the top of the list.
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Tom said: First, it is an un-refuted fact that Jesus never claimed to be the “fulfillment of the Sabbath.” There is no such passage in all the many Gospel passages about the Sabbath. This singular point is enough to overthrow NCT. And it does!''
Bob said: Of course Jesus claimed fulfillment of the whole OC/OT in Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Tom said: By contrast, the active, reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ can withstand everything the critics can throw at it. It will stand strong forever. Why? Because it is grounded on the genuine Gospel Words of Christ. The NCS (New Covenant Sabbath) is “founded on the rock.” NCT is built on sand.
Bob said: Matthew 11:29" Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." The ultimate goal of the Christian pilgrimage is "soul rest" and Jesus fulfills that which the keeping of a day cannot give. The Gospel does not include a holy day mandate, if it were included, it would be in Christ's Law/God's Law and no mention of such a mandate has been shown by Tom Norris or the Gospels or the rest of the NT. The word commandment does not always mean a collection of laws that includes the Sabbath, Reformed or otherwise. The whole discussion in Heb 4 shows that another day, TODAY, is designated by God for man. That is, salvation and rest for the soul is available every day. Tom mocks this and shows his lack of discernment.
I have answered all his questions in previous posts. There is further review of the book "New Covenant Theology" and that is what I will continue with. Tom I take back what I said, you are welcome to show your Reformed Sabbath concept, because all can see nowhere in the Bible, or in scholarship points to it. You are an army of one that can not show the mandate and your further talk, shows where your falsehood is based. Feel free to post. But NCT is far from refuted, by your singular declaration, it is arrogant and shows lack of discernment.
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Chapter 15 Our Creeds [Lists of Fundamentals] and How They Affect Our Understanding
Bear with me again, while I wax, eloquent??? What is a Creed? As defined:
Creed
1: a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2: a set of fundamental beliefs [SDAs now have 28]
3: a guiding principle
From a book I have been reviewing, "New Covenant Theology" by Wells and Zaspel, Wells sums up the divisions among Christian denominations this way:
"1. Our creeds and confessions are one immense barrier to unity.
2. There is no easy or obvious way to cross this divide."
Page 259
Oh you say, sometime in my SDA education I was told we don't have creeds, and if you attend other than an SDA church occasionally, you might believe that because, as the order of worship, creeds are read congregationally.
However, look at the definition. A creed is a set of fundamental beliefs. Which the SDA church has 28 Fundamental Beliefs, I have the old version of 27. Are these barriers to our open discussion and study of Truth and God's Word?? How many of your high school chums or dates, had an interest in, let alone an understanding of what they believe?
Wells and Zaspel come out of Reformed Theology and the concepts they are presenting they have found are not easily discussed because there are those that cling out of habit to what has been assembled in a creed or confession, such as the Westminster Confession. If you have ever perused it (googled it) you can see what I am getting at, especially it's manmade position on the Sabbath. NCT does believe that the Old and New Covenant have a "fracture point" or point of "discontinuity". If you read the texts that I have given, something happened, a change in beliefs at the cross, no longer does Lev 23 ceremonial festivals apply, and number one on that list is the Sabbath. One can not ignore some of this. The splitting of the Jewish system by SDA scholars, or shall I say Covenant Theology Scholars have divided it into ceremonial, civil, and moral. As I have studied, the Bible does not do this but treats the Jewish Covenant as one: Exodus 34:28; Luke 24:44; 2 Cor 3:7-11(notice the word "transitory" in reference to the Decalogue, the center of the 1st Covenant); Col 2:16,17; 1 Cor 9:21 and Hebrews 8:13. Is Christ's Law the Decalogue? Those that are reading or care about this topic, read about God setting another day for Christians in Hebrews 4:6-11. He is not talking the Sabbath here but on any day one can have "soul rest" as Jesus said he would give in Matt 11:29. This is forgiveness of sins, not mere physical rest on one day in seven.
Last edited by bob_2 (05-13-14 1:09 am)
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Just an observation about TRUTH. Truth is not subjective. Yes, there are texts in the Bible that allow differing positions to be possible, and debatable. But, in accepting TRUTH one has to recognize this and treat other TRUTH seekers evenly. To shun so your position doesn't have to be revealed is not Peacemaker status for the shunner, but cowardice. To keep silent at this point stalls the shunner's journey as a TRUTH seeker. Peacemakers are not those that ignore the confrontation. Sometimes confrontation and revelation must be used to reveal the position of both sides to become evident. By confrontation I do not mean abusive tone, or volume, or shameful remarks. It tests the TRUTH seeker, will he/she be willing to overturn the moneychangers tables with a whip in hand or go silent and allow the UNTRUTH to remain.
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NCT Still False
Bob, you can try as hard as you like, but NCT is still false, false, false. It is no solution to the SDA error about the Sabbath, which can only be properly addressed by embracing the active and reformed, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
However, let all rejoice; the correct doctrine of the NC, 7th day Sabbath, has been found. This is a paradigm shifting point for the Adventist Community. It is a new, much needed, truth for those in the dark.
What a pity that the SDA leaders, including the so-called “independent” Journals like Spectrum and AToday, refuse to allow any such discussion about the doctrine of the Sabbath, or anything else of consequence. Against the overwhelming evidence, they assume what the church teaches is fully correct, and thus refuse any Gospel correction, choosing instead to censor, silence and ignore serious and necessary Adventist Reform. Sad.
Bob said: The chapter (about NCT) goes on and concludes with a discussion of the rare (once) phrase "the Lord's day" and how it came to be.
Tom said: Considering how the Every Day Sabbath crowd manipulates the words of Christ, changing them to mean whatever they want, whenever they want, how can this possibly turn out well? It can’t.
Watch and see these wolves in action. The NCT crowd will now spit in the face of Christ, changing the words and meaning of scripture to fit their delusions, thus repudiating Christ.
This crowd of blasphemers will fight against the most clear and plain Sabbath teaching of Christ, even as they pretend to be followers of Jesus, embracing the “law of Christ.” But they are great pretenders, even blind, like the original Jews that refused to listen to what Christ taught about the 7th day.
Let all understand; while Jesus teaches X about the Sabbath, the authors of NCT teach Y. Thus they are self-condemned, and so too any so foolish as to follow these wicked wolves.
Bob 2 wrote: "The phrase, the Lord's Day, is a striking phrase. In itself it would be an appropriate name for a sacred day of obligation if there were one designated by Christ for his people to keep."
Tom said: Wow! According to the NCT crowd, while the “Lord’s Day” sounds like it should mean something doctrinally important, it doesn’t. Why? Because Jesus abolished the Sabbath and Paul agrees. End of Story. Really?
Listen to these fools repudiate the teachings of Christ, --just because they say so. Then they bring Paul into their fraud and pretend that he agrees with their delusions. Who are these people to teach everyone to ignore the words of Christ? On what authority?
Let all beware wolves and false religious teachers.
For the record;
1) Jesus is the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath; the Sabbath doctrine was one of his favorite teachings, which Christ promoted all during his ministry.
2) Jesus teaches an active and unique, as well as controversial, NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. He did not abolish the Sabbath completely, or change it to Sunday. Nor did he recast the 7th day into an Every Day spiritual doctrine about rest or salvation. However, he did reform it for all to see in the Gospels. This is why the Jews sent him to the cross.
3) The singular term, the “Lord’s Day,” in Revelation, is a reference to Jesus’ controversial Sabbath teaching, which John records in his Gospel. In fact, John has more to say about the Sabbath then the other three Gospels, so it makes perfect sense that he would make a reference to the NC Sabbath of Christ, which he wrote so much about.
What day was special to the Lord Jesus? Answer: The 7th day. It was the Lord’s Day, Christ’s Day, a doctrine that led directly to the Jews rejection of Jesus.
4) The term Lord’s Day can only refer to the 7th day Sabbath. Misunderstand this NT fact, and the Gospel will not be correctly understood, much less the doctrine of the Sabbath.
Jesus is the creator and Lord of all the Earth, “even the Lord of the NC Sabbath.”
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Bob 2 said: Tom Wells goes on to point to Jesus being "Lord of the Sabbath" and the term "the Lord's supper". Then is the Lord's day the seventh day mentioned in Rev 1:10 or represent Sunday, because of the "Lord's supper" representing His Resurrection on Sunday the first day.
Tom said: Wow! Let all understand how the evil minds of wolves think. See how the NCT leaders question the teachings of Christ, inserting doubt and double-talk, twisting Jesus words to support their false doctrines. Sad.
Let all understand; the term “Lord,” in these passages means Jesus. He is the “Lord”. So there is a Lord’s Day, which is a reference to the 7th day Sabbath. And there is also a Lord’s Supper, which is a reference to the Passover sader that took place just before the Passion.
Days and meals are not to be confused or conflated, anymore than the creation of the Earth is to be confused with the Jews escaping Egypt. These are different events. Jesus is the Lord of the 7th day Sabbath doctrine, as well as the new and improved Passover meal, called the Lord’s Supper. He is Lord of all the Earth, and “even” Lord of the NC, 7th day Sabbath and the Passover.
1Cor. 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
It is obvious that the authors of NCT are trying to insert doubt, confusion, and error into the Gospel Story so that they can claim their Every Day Sabbath doctrine credible and true. But it is not even close. NCT is blasphemy and endless double-talk. It is a foolish and cruel doctrine, meant to confuse the unsaved, leading them away from the Gospel of Christ.
Bob said: Wells points out that there is no command by Jesus anywhere to clarify this matter, so it is not a fruitful argument and is an "in-house" debatable point.
Tom replied: Ha! So Well’s thinks he has raised some deep point that cannot be figured out from the NT. Really? Did Jesus fail to make his Sabbath teachings clear, leaving us in confusion? Or could it be that Wells is just one more religious blowhard that thinks he is wiser than Christ?
Christ’s Sabbath teachings are very clear, repeated over and over in the Gospels for our edification and instruction. However, those whose ears and eyes are not open to truth, cannot comprehend this correct Gospel doctrine. This was the same problem with the Jews, who also pretended not to understand Jesus Sabbath teaching, and thus they fought against him, and his NC Sabbath doctrine, at every opportunity.
Wells is a wolf. His logic is that of a heretic, not someone who is trying to be faithful to the teachings of Christ. The more I hear from him, the more dishonest and incompetent he appears. He is clearly an enemy of Christ, and everyone should be warned. Sheep should not listen to wolves. They must listen only to Christ, which is not a “debatable point.”
Bob 2 posted: "We simply must leave the matter there and do as Paul commanded us in Romans 14:5,6: 'One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.'"
Tom replied: Wrong! No Christian is to ignore Christ and follow someone else, regardless who he may be. So we are not going to leave things in a confused mess, as if Christ has failed to give us enough information and insight into his NC Sabbath doctrine.
No Christian should listen to anyone that claims Jesus did not explain the Sabbath well enough for us to understand. This blasphemous error is the basis for NCT. This garbage could not exist without inserting absurd fabrications into the Gospel Story. NCT is based on myth, error, and double-talk, not on the words of Christ in the Gospels.
So we will not agree to “leave the matter” where you have manipulated it. Here is the real situation: We must read, study, understand, and embrace, the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ, the Lord of the 7th day Sabbath.
THIS is the end of the matter.
Paul has nothing to do with it. What Jesus teaches about the Gospel Sabbath is what all that follow him must embrace. Anyone that fails to follow Christ will not receive Eternal Life. Period. Paul has zero to do with it. We are only saved by Jesus and through Jesus, if we embrace what he teaches. Christ is the primary source for the Gospel, as well as the NC Sabbath. Eternal Life can only be obtained through Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath doctrine. Repudiate Christ at your own risk.
Bob 2 said: The New Covenant does not designate "a holy day" of obligation as the Jews received in the Ten Commandment which is the Old Covenant, Exodus 34:28.
Tom replied: Correct. Jesus does not teach that the 7th day is to be kept holy by refraining from work. This is what Moses taught, but not Christ. I have never said otherwise. It is the SDA’s that teach the Sabbath of Moses, incorrectly thinking it is the same as the Sabbath doctrine of Christ. But they have made a great and fatal mistake in this matter, for which they must repent.
Let all understand, Jesus teaches that the 4th Commandment is no longer binding on the church. A point that many Christians are very confused about, especially the SDA’s. The NC Sabbath is a day for worship (on the 7th day) and work, NOT worship and rest. Of course the Jews did not agree with Jesus NC view of the Sabbath, and they were cursed by Christ and destroyed as a result. There is a compelling lesson here for the church.
Bob 2 said: The New Covenant tenets are limited to directives given in anticipation and in the rest of the New Testament during God's Kingdom/New Covenant and we should not speculate on something that burdens the conscience of the believer when not specifically given.
Tom replied; Stop the double-talk. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the Sabbath, is what his N followers must embrace. Period. It seems you must not have read the Gospels, as you are very unfamiliar with the teachings and sayings of Jesus, which are also called the “law of Christ.”
The Law of Christ is binding on all that claim to follow Jesus. What Jesus teaches, - is Gospel doctrine for the church, which teaching includes, not excludes, what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.
If Jesus teaches an Every Day Sabbath, then NCT is correct to promote such a doctrine. If Jesus teaches a non-working, resting Sabbath, like Moses and the SDA’s, then so be it. The same for Sunday, etc. Whatever Jesus teaches is what his church must embrace and follow.
However, Jesus only teaches an active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath doctrine. Not a resting Sunday, or resting 7th day doctrine, much less an Every Day Sabbath doctrine OF spiritual rest.
I repeat: Whatever Jesus teaches about the Sabbath – is Gospel truth. Anyone that teaches a different doctrine, has fallen from grace, they do not understand nor embrace the genuine Christ. They will not pass the Judgment or receive Eternal Life.
Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
Bob 2 said: Those arguing that all truth is contained in the Gospels and it's examples, forgets that the New Covenant began on the death of Christ and "received power" and energy on Pentecost.
Tom replied: Wrong. The NC “begins” when Christ was born on earth. Most every child knows the story. Too bad that the NCT crowd is so confused and blind to the Gospel.
Here is a passage that underscores this point. Note that the birth of Christ was “Good News of great joy,” complete with a heavenly choir singing praises, etc. Why were they so happy? Because the OC was starting? No. Because the NC had started. It had yet to be inaugurated, but it had started non-the less with the birth of Christ.
Luke 2:8 In the same region there were some shepherds staying out in the fields and keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luke 2:9 And an angel of the Lord suddenly stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them; and they were terribly frightened.
Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
Luke 2:12 “This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
Luke 2:13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
Luke 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”
Anyone that thinks Jesus’ words in the Gospels are Old Covenant in nature, because they were spoken before the Passion, have not only lost their minds, they have also lost any chance of salvation. Eternal Life is not for those that refuse to embrace the Gospel Story correctly. It is not for those that refuse to listen to Christ.
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
1) All that follow God, must LISTEN to the Gospel teachings of Christ.
2) All truth necessary for salvation is written down in the Gospels.
3) Jesus ministry is represented by his official Gospel teachings, which is why they were written down by his Apostles and place at the beginning of the New Testament, superior to all others.
I repeat: All truth necessary for salvation is found in the Gospels. Thus the teachings of Christ are sufficient for Eternal Life.
No other person is equal to Christ, nor can anyone be saved through Paul or the organized church. Only Jesus can save. Whatever he teaches, is truth. It is also a matter of life and death, and this includes what he teaches about the 7th day.
4) After the cross, NO new Gospel truth has ever originated from the HS, or Paul, as you pretend. The passage you cite does not say that the church would receive “new doctrines,” but power to preach the Gospel as previously taught by Christ. (You need to read the NT more carefully.)
Jesus lived, taught, and fully preached the Gospel, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. The four Gospels are the written record of Jesus’ Gospel instruction. There is no other Christ, nor are there any other genuine Gospels. What we have is what we have. And it is sufficient to find Eternal Life, as well as understand the correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath.
So you need to stop marginalizing Christ and stop pretending that his Gospel Words are not part of the New Covenant. This is an outrageous position that not even the NCT founders would embrace. You are speaking like an uneducated fool, all in an attempt to repudiate the Sabbath teachings of Christ. Sad.
Bob 2 said: Nowhere is the Sabbath emphasized or directed as an obligation for the Christian believer.
Tom said: Bob, you are a great liar. This statement is clearly false and you must know it.
1) Jesus “emphasized” the Sabbath over and over and over in all four Gospels. He even took the name, “Lord of the Sabbath” to “emphasize” how special this doctrine was to him.
2) The Sabbath debates between Christ and the Jews are a featured and repeated occurrence in the Gospels, once again showing the “emphasis” and importance of Jesus, NC doctrine about the 7th day.
3) John makes it clear, that the great vision of Revelation was given to him on the 7th day Sabbath. (The Lord’s Day). Thus, Revelation “emphasizes,” the Sabbath, and in fact, places this doctrine in an eschatological and prophetic context.
The first point is sufficient to disprove your false assertion;
Just read the Gospels; Jesus new and controversial Sabbath doctrine is found all over the Gospels. Only a blind person could miss all this 7th day instruction from Christ. In fact, Jesus calls those that rejected his NC Sabbath blind and unsaved. His words still count today.
So Bob, your words are false. Jesus “emphases” a reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, over and over in all four Gospels. Why do you deny this plain and clear Gospel fact? Why do you refuse to listen to Jesus and follow the genuine Christ?
It is a Gospel fact that Jesus promoted his NC Sabbath doctrine over and over in the Gospels, starting from the very beginning of his ministry. He also claimed to have the proper authority from God, his Father, to make such Sabbath reforms. Which is why the Jews became enraged at him for making their God into a Sabbath breaker.
With these facts in mind, how can anyone claim that “nowhere” in the NT is the Sabbath “emphased?” How can you so boldly deny the facts of the Gospel Story? How can you deny what is so obvious in the NT? How can you possibly expect to receive Eternal Life from Christ, when you repudiate and deny what he teaches?
Matt. 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
To deny the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ is to DENY Christ. Those so foolish as to deny what Christ teaches about the 7th day, will be “denied” entrance into the Kingdom of God.
Anyone that claims to follow Christ, must understand, support, and embrace what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. This is a large part of what it means to follow Christ, the Good Shepherd.
I repeat: To deny the Sabbath teaching of Christ, is to deny Christ and repudiate the Gospel. This is what Christ teaches. Those that think otherwise, do not know Christ or his teachings.
2Tim. 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
This last quote took place during a long Sabbath debate. Here Jesus calls those who resist his NC Sabbath doctrine; blind, headed for the judgment.
Bob 2 said: Also, remember Christ's own words: John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom said: Ha! So now you want to listen to Christ in John 16, but not in the many other places where he teaches his active and reformed Sabbath? How convenient. You quote the words of Jesus when it suits you, hoping to find something that will help you repudiate what he teaches about the Sabbath. This is not the correct way to understand Jesus teachings.
Sorry, but this passage does not give anyone license to ignore, marginalize, or repudiate what Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath in the Gospels. Why would you think so? Is Christ divided, against his own teachings? No.
Jesus said: “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and a house divided against itself falls. Luke 11:17
Bob 2 said: A few final thoughts from Chapter 13:
1. "...it is clear that they [Jewish Christians] were not aware of any rule laid down by the Lord Jesus that instituted the Lord's Day [Sunday, if you believe it is Sunday] as a replacement for the Jewish Sabbath." pg 247 NCT
Tom replied: Wrong! The term “Lord’s Day,” as used by John in Revelation, shows that the early Christians, who were Jews, were aware what that term meant. It is code for the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. It is a reference to Jesus’ controversial Sabbath doctrine that so enraged the Jews.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Jesus is the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath. All his apostles, as well as the critics, knew of his public claim, as well as the active and reformed 7th day doctrine associated with it.
No one should seriously think this phrase is a reference to Sunday, or to an Every Day spiritual doctrine as promoted by NCT. That would be an impossible and very uneducated position. The book of Revelation was written by the same Jewish author as the Gospel of John. A book that features Christ’s active and reformed 7th day Sabbath.
Wolf Alert!!
In addition, the book of Revelation comes with a WARNING: Do NOT Change or Tamper with the words of this book. Which means that anyone who pretends this vision was given to John on Sunday, is changing the words and the intent of this book at the very beginning.
Rev. 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues, which are written in this book;
Rev. 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
Do you understand that NCT, with its’ dishonest spin on the Sabbath has broken both rules? They have taken away the true meaning of the Lord’s Day in Revelation, and have added this absurd Every Day spiritual Sabbath as the true meaning.
So NCT is double cursed. Those who embrace this false doctrine will not eat from the Tree of Life, nor will they enter the New Jerusalem.
Let all understand that every church and denomination in the world has misunderstood the term Lord’s Day, including the SDA’s that were, and still are, correct about the 7th Day. But they are wrong about the doctrine.
The Lord’s Day is not a reference to the OC Sabbath of Moses and the 4th Commandment, but only to the active and reformed, Gospel Sabbath of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, which was made for all mankind.
The modern SDA’s have also broken this rule of Christ in other passages. By claiming that Rev 14: 7 is a reference to the IJ, they have repudiated the Fundamentals of the Advent Movement and placed themselves on a path of self-destruction. They have altered and changed the original Adventist interpretation that started this prophetic movement, forgetting the very points that brought them into existence.
Ellen White warned the SDA’s not to make the very mistake they made at Glacier View. They have repudiated the foundation of the Advent Movement, which is why the SDA’s are self-destructing for all to see.
"We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history." E.G. White - Last Day Events - Page 72.
While Miller, and ALL the Battle Creek SDA’s taught the “Hour of His Judgment has come” was only a reference to the Second Coming, the Takoma Park apologists changed it to mean the IJ. To give credibility to this false doctrine, they also taught that this is what Ellen White believed, --when this was never true. (Arthur White was a very dishonest man).
Here is where the SDA’s have gone very wrong. Glacier View was a farce that defended great error and historical fraud by the White Estate. Here is where the modern Advent Movement went off the tracks and into the woods…
The modern SDA’s have removed the doctrine of the 2nd Coming in Rev 14: 7, adding the false doctrine of the IJ in its place. Unless they repent and correct this hermeneutical travesty, they are doomed to a path that will take them far away from Eternal Life. They are headed for the “plagues of God”, even the wrath of God.
Rev. 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues, which are written in this book;
Rev. 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
Christ curses those who play dishonest games about either the Sabbath or eschatology. Let all beware. God is not to be mocked nor the Gospel treated lightly.
The Advent Movement can only go forward if they repent of their many false doctrines, including their errors about the Judgment and the Sabbath. To deny they have any error is to deny Christ.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
If the SDA’s receive much more “reproval” or “discipline,” they will collapse. Perhaps this is what they need in order to repent? The continued defense of the status quo will lead them to certain ruin.
Bob 2 said: 2. "The sum of Paul's understanding is this: every Christian is free to keep whatever days he cares to keep as long as he does not impose them on others, though Paul himself feels it shows a certain lack of Christian maturity to impose such laws as a religious obligation on one's self. For Paul, to acquiesce in days of obligation was a species of slavery (Gal.4:8-11)." pg 248 NCT
Tom replied: First, it does not matter what you think Paul says; he is the wrong source. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and the head theologian in the church. What Christ teaches about the Sabbath, is what all must also embrace. Paul has zero to do with it.
Second, Paul embraced the NC Sabbath of Christ. He understood what you do not. However, unless you first understand what Jesus is teaching about the Sabbath, you will be unable understand Paul either. You are blind to both Christ and Paul.
Third, it was the law of the 4th Commandment, which Paul considered “slavery” and legalism. What a pity that the SDA’s have embraced the “schoolmaster” Sabbath of the OC Jews. This is a great mistake, for which the Adventists must repent.
More than that, they need to pay attention to what Jesus teaches about the 7th day and follow him, NOT MOSES or the Law.
Bob 2 said: 3. "In light of this (the Galatians keeping of days), we must all ask ourselves whether we impose upon the consciences of men and women without authorization from the Lord Jesus, and we must correct our practice accordingly." pg 248 NCT
Tom said: What Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, is Gospel doctrine for the church. This is also called the law of Christ.
Jesus does not teach:
1) Sunday Sabbath,
2) Every Day Sabbath, or a
3) 7th day, non-working Sabbath, as taught by the SDA’s.
4) Christ only teaches an active and reformed, 7th day Gospel Sabbath, a doctrine that is unknown to the blind and wretched Laodicean church.
Bob 2 said: 4. Yes, Christ said "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath." But it also could be said after study of this in New Covenant terms, "It could be said in the most literal sense, "It was made for man, and it passed away." pg 250 NCT
Tom said: No, no, no! The words of Christ are not to be twisted in such a dishonest manner as to change their meaning. This is not what the passage says or means. What is the matter with you? How dare anyone blatantly try and change the Gospel words of Christ? Jesus never said that the Sabbath “passed away.” While this is what you want him to say, it never happened. This is how we know NCT is anti-Christ blasphemy that leads away from the Gospel.
Jesus is the Eternal, Lord of the Sabbath. There is no “passing away” of either his title about the Sabbath or the doctrine itself, which is based on the creation of the world, which will stand forever. This is why Jesus promotes and defends his NC Sabbath all during his Gospel ministry. NCT repudiates Christ and his Word in order to support their false views. Shameful.
Bob 2 rationalized: 5. "...The mere fact that Jesus claims lordship over the Sabbath means that he has the option to abolish it if he so chooses. The idea of lordship would be largely emptied of meaning if that were not the case. No argument then, for the permanence of the Sabbath can be sustained simply from Christ's declaration of lordship over it."
Tom replied: Wrong. This is anti-Christ double-talk. The reason why Jesus is the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath is because he made the Sabbath when he created the world. This title has nothing to do with his powers to abolish anything.
The Sabbath was part of the creation of the Earth, and thus its “permanence” is tied the very Earth itself, as well as to the Eternal Creator. Neither the Creator, the Earth, nor the Sabbath have been abolished, nor will they ever be abolished.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 1He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Gen. 8:22 “While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
And cold and heat,
And summer and winter,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”
Psa. 93:1 The LORD reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The LORD has clothed and girded Himself with strength;
Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved.
Psa. 104:5 He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever.
Jesus created the Sabbath when he created the world. So long as the world stands, so too the NC, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. (Which is not to be confused with the OC 7th day Sabbath of Moses.)
While NCT pretends that the NC Sabbath doctrine is “abolished” by Christ, as if it were an “enemy” to be removed, this is an absurd conclusion. The Sabbath is linked to the creation of the world; it can never be abolished so long as the Earth remains.
By contrast, “Death” is “abolished” by the Gospel, not the NC Sabbath. Death is the enemy of mankind, not Jesus’ doctrine about the Gospel Sabbath. Those that have conflated these points are making a fatal mistake.
2Tim. 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
In fact, Jesus makes it clear that death can only be defeated if we follow and “keep: his words,” which include what he teaches about the 7th day Reformed Sabbath.
John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
Where does Jesus declare he “abolished” the Sabbath? Where are such “words” and teaching? No where! There is no such Gospel teaching. Rather, Jesus teaches an active, guilt free, 7th day Sabbath for the church. It is not like what the SDA’s teach, or what any other denomination teaches.
Thus the NC Sabbath is an agent of condemnation and death for the last church, if they reject it. Those that fail to “keep” Jesus words and teachings about the Sabbath, will be lost. Just like the Jews that also rejected the Gospel Sabbath.
The NC Sabbath is a divisive, controversial, and paradigm shifting doctrine that exposes those who are only pretending to follow Christ from those who are honest, sincere, and saved. Misunderstand Jesus’ Sabbath teaching, and you can be sure you have also failed to comprehend the Gospel of Christ.
There is a reason why Jesus’ teaching about the Good Shepherd, in John 10, is directly connected to his Reformed Sabbath teaching. The “Good Shepherd” motif is the conclusion of a long Sabbath debate that started in John 9.
John 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
John 9:3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
John 9:5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
John 9:15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
The NT is full of Jesus’ Reformed Sabbath teaching, as well as the division, debate, and Gospel instruction that followed. Those who fail to gasp Jesus NC Sabbath teaching, have failed to grasp the genuine Gospel. To know the genuine Christ is to also know what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Get this point about the Sabbath wrong, and, according to Christ, you will remain a sinner, spiritually “blind” and lost.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
Let all pay attention to Jesus’ NC Sabbath instruction; Eternal life depends on carefully following what Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath and the Good Shepherd teaches about the 7th day.
Bob 2 said: 6. With the contention that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath (Matt. 11:28-30) the Sabbath is not abolished in every sense. Jesus is the reality of our Sabbath rest (Col 2:16-17).
Tom replied: Wrong. There are no OT prophecies about the Sabbath for the Messiah to fulfill. I have asked you to post these “Sabbath Prophecies” many times, if they exist. But you just ignore the request, because you know there are no such texts. But yet, you still pretend such myths are true.
If you can’t produce any serious OT passage about the Messiah “fulfilling” the Sabbath, then you lose the point, and NCT falls in heap of garbage. You can’t find such a passage because it does not exist, thus NCT is based on nonsense and error.
Neither Moses nor Jesus teaches that the Christ was to be the “fulfillment” of the Sabbath. There is no truth to this absurd rumor, started by the NCT crowed in the 1970’s. NCT is fabricated nonsense, blasphemy that mocks the words and teachings of Christ. NCT main “contentions” are groundless and absurd.
However, glad to see that you think the Sabbath still stands, in some sense, in the NC. But this claim that Jesus is our “Sabbath rest” is impossible. There is no such doctrine as a “resting” Sabbath in the NC. Only in the OC is there a “resting” Sabbath. NOT THE NC.
Bob 2 said: At the end of Chapter 13, Tom Wells quotes D. R. Lacey, "The Sabbath/Sunday Question and the Law in the Pauline Corpus"
Paul's contribution to our quest, then, is limited but of significance.
Tom said: Wrong. Paul is not the primary source to understand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. It is the Sabbath “contribution” of Christ that takes precedence over Paul or anyone else. What Jesus teaches about the 7th day in the Gospels is of great significance; this is what the church must follow. Those who run to Paul to learn the Sabbath are running AWAY from Christ. This is a fatal error.
Bob 2 said: While he (Paul) forbids us from stating that Christians may not observe Sunday as the Christian day par excellence, he also forbids us from imposing such observance as a duty upon our fellow believers. Since, at least in much of the world, Sunday is allowed to the majority of us as a day of rest and a day suitable for worship, we may surely gratefully receive it as such; but our study of Paul forbids us from erecting any theological edifice upon this convenient, but fortuitous [providential] fact.
Tom replied: Wow! What a bunch of double-talk and diversion! First, the church should not be “grateful” for false doctrine. This is a sinful and wicked position that is self-condemned from the start.
Second, Paul hardly defends a Sunday Sabbath, which was not an option or a subject of debate in the 1st century. Paul does not “forbid” anyone from condemning or “rebuking” the false doctrine of Sunday keeping, much less any other false doctrine, of which there are many.
2Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
1Cor. 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
The Gospel does not contain a Sunday Sabbath or the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment where it was sinful to work. Nor did Paul, much less Christ, preach any such doctrine.
Paul condemns anyone that embraces a false Gospel, including the circumcision party that was a champion not only for ritual circumcision, but also for the Law of the 4th Commandment where it was sinful for anyone but the Levites to work on the 7th day.
Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal. 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Here Paul attacks the Jewish and SDA view of the Sabbath. He condemns those OC minded souls who are trying to obey the 4th Commandment Law of Moses, which Christ does not teach or endorse.
No wonder the 1888 debate was so traumatic for the SDA’s. They were unable and unwilling to admit that their great Sabbath doctrine could be wrong. Thus they held on to the OC “schoolmaster Sabbath” with both hands, refusing new Gospel truth that would have led them to discover the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
This great error resulted in the collapse of the Battle Creek Empire. Showing that the SDA’s are the modern equivalent of the Circumcision Party, where law trumps Gospel for all to see. Of course they also repeated these legalistic errors in Takoma Park, and once again, melted down after 1980, as millions and millions walked out the door.
Paul makes it clear in Galatians, that the 4th Commandment is no longer binding on the church. This is exactly what Christ had already established in his ministry. No Christian is under the law of the 4th Commandment. Which means that the SDA’s were very wrong in 1888 and still today.
Christians NOT Under the 10 C’s
Here is the KJ version that was in use during the 1888 debates:
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith, which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Here is a modern version:
Gal. 3:21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
Gal. 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal. 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a 1atutor.
Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
The SDA’s have the wrong doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. For this they must repent and make the necessary change. If they refuse, they are doomed. So far, they refuse.
Bob, you need to stop citing worthless and wrong sources. Just because some religious hack publishes a book, so what? It means nothing. Most all religious professionals are trite, worthless, and wrong. They write legions of useless books to support their many false views. So what? The fact is: Jesus never taught a Sunday Sabbath; and anyone that thinks he did, or thinks the NT allows such a farce, is following a worthless Gospel and a false Christ.
Tom Norris said: There are scores and scores of Gospel verses where Jesus teaches, defends, and promotes his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. This includes a number of Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Pharisees. Why do you pretend otherwise?
The fact that you don’t think such a 1st century record exists, only makes you appear delusional and uneducated. The Gospels are available to all. Those who refuse to read, study, and embrace what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath will be banished from the Kingdom of God. They are blind to the Gospel, having chosen to follow others that are also blind.
Bob Sands said: This does not equal a command or mandate for the New Covenant. You have been able to supply such so peddle your wares elsewhere. Christ as Lord of the Sabbath can do with the Sabbath what He wishes with His authority. He chose to fulfill it. As has been previously quoted in Matthew where "soul rest" is promised if one comes to Christ. This is the ultimate goal of the Christian.
Tom said: Those who place false words in the mind and mouth of Christ have lost their minds, as well as Eternal Life. For anyone to claim that: 1) Jesus choose to fulfill the Sabbath of Moses, then 2) abolish it, then 3) change to an Every Day Sabbath of spiritual rest, does not know Christ. They have embraced outrageous blasphemy. NCT is poison.
Bob 2 said: The Gospel, no matter how much you protest, were pre New Covenant. Jesus words were anticipatory of the New Covenant/Kingdom of God. The Last Supper proves this when introducing the Lord's Supper the night before He dies for our sins. At that time the curtain in the Temple was torn from top to bottom and nothing in the "Most Holy Place" was holy again, including the Ten Commandment.
Tom replied: Your position that the Gospels do not apply to the church is beyond absurd. Jesus represents the NC, and so too his teachings in all four Gospels. Your lack of education and common sense expose your views as ludicrous and irrational. You need to get yourself educated about the basics of theology, because you are a loose cannon, out of control and very dangerous.
Bob 2 said: Only restated law and commands are part of the New Covenant. The Sabbath is not one of those tenets. The discussions with the Pharisees was because they had constructed manmade laws that the Lord of the Sabbath said were perverse.
Tom said: Wrong. What do you think Jesus was doing with the 4th Commandment? He was “restating” and reforming it to fit with the NC Gospel and the Priesthood of All Believers. The Pharisees refused to embrace Jesus Gospel Sabbath. Look what happened to those that refused the Gospel Sabbath of Christ. It was tragic.
Bob 2 wrote: Tom said I teach an Every day Sabbath. He is obsessed with a day being necessary in the Gospel. There is none. Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath in His flesh, Col 2:16,17 and the Sabbath of the Old Covenant was listed as ceremonial in Lev 23 at the top of the list.
Tom said: First, it is beyond refutation that there is a 7th day Sabbath embedded in the Gospel Story. This cannot be denied because this is what Jesus teaches over and over in the Gospels. Why do you refuse to admit this obvious, Semitic fact? It is such a clear and repeated part of the Gospel record, which includes Judaism, that it is stunning anyone would try to deny such plain facts.
Second, it is an un-refuted fact that Jesus never claimed to be the “fulfillment of the Sabbath.” There is no such passage. This singular point is enough to overthrow NCT. And it does!''
Third, Jesus was “obsessed” with his new view of the active, 7th day Sabbath. This explains why he was always having long public debates with the Jews about the Sabbath. That is also why he calls himself the Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus was OBSESSED with the 7th day. He thought it was very important, necessary, and special. Anyone that denies what Christ teaches about the 7th day, has denied Christ and God. Don’t shoot the messenger.
Bob said: Of course Jesus claimed fulfillment of the whole OC/OT in Luke 24: 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Tom said: Ha! This is comical. There are no Sabbath prophecies in the OT for Christ to fulfill. Nor did he ever make such a claim. So stop making things up. The passage you cite has zero to do with the Sabbath. You need to be more respectful of the Word. At this point it is clear that you will twist Christ’s words at will; all in a futile attempt to defend NCT with it’s anti-Christ, anti-Gospel doctrine of the Sabbath. Sad.
Bob said: Matthew 11:29" Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."
Tom said: This passage is not saying Jesus is the fulfillment of the Sabbath, even though it foreshadows a Sabbath debate, which starts the very next verse. You need to find the many passages where Jesus is teaching about the Sabbath and learn from him. Not make things up and try to make Christ say what you want to hear. That is a fatal game.
Bob 2 said: The ultimate goal of the Christian pilgrimage is "soul rest" and Jesus fulfills that which the keeping of a day cannot give.
Tom said: Wrong. Where do you get this awful stuff? The term “soul rest” is not even in the Bible; it is a made up term. Just stop and use some common sense. How can the “ultimate goal” of the Christian be reduced to a religious term that does not exist in the scriptures or the teachings of Christ?
Rest is not a goal, much less the point of the Gospel. Mankind was created for activity and good works, not for inactivity and rest, which is a synonym for death in the NT. Let everyone stop manipulating the words of Christ. This is a fatal sin.
Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Bob 2 said: The Gospel does not include a holy day mandate, if it were included, it would be in Christ's Law/God's Law and no mention of such a mandate has been shown by Tom Norris or the Gospels or the rest of the NT.
Tom replied: While Jesus does not teach a holy 7th day, where it is sinful to work, he does teach an active, guilt-free, Sabbath doctrine, which is supported by the Priesthood of All Believers. Jesus Sabbath instruction is found in all four Gospels.
What Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, is part of the “law of Christ.” All that claim to follow Christ must also embrace what he teaches about the 7th day. Those that refuse, like the Jews did, are repudiating Christ and the Gospel. They will be lost, and so too anyone today that refuses to embrace what Christ teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: The word commandment does not always mean a collection of laws that includes the Sabbath, Reformed or otherwise. The whole discussion in Heb 4 shows that another day, TODAY, is designated by God for man. That is, salvation and rest for the soul is available every day. Tom mocks this and shows his lack of discernment.
Tom replied: Would that everyone had enough “discernment” to mock false and heretical doctrine. I make no apologies for exposing NCT as utter nonsense. Moreover, Hebrews 4 is not the source to understand Jesus’ NC Sabbath doctrine. Nor does it support Sunday or the EveryDay Sabbath, or what the SDA’s teach. Sorry.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Bob 2 said: I have answered all his questions in previous posts.
Tom replied: Ha! This is too comical! You have not been able to defend NCT. You have not been able to find any passage where the Messiah was supposed to “fulfill” the Sabbath. Nor have you found any passage where Christ teaches a resting Sabbath of any kind, much less an Every Day spiritual Sabbath rest.
I could go on and on showing that you have not addressed the issues honestly or properly, nor have you even tried. Your view that Jesus teaches OC doctrine in the Gospels, and that he meant to say the Sabbath was made, NOT for all mankind, but only for the Jews is beyond absurd. It is laughable.
Most all of your views, and that of NCT are a joke. You have lost the debate long ago and it only gets worse as you try to go on. Why not surrender to truth and enjoy the Gospel? It will change your sorry attitude and life…
Bob 2 said: There is further review of the book "New Covenant Theology" and that is what I will continue with.
Tom said: NCT cannot stand. It is built on sand, not solid Gospel theology. Sorry. Give it up before it is too late and embrace the genuine Gospel. This is your only hope.
Bob 2 said: Tom I take back what I said, you are welcome to show your Reformed Sabbath concept, because all can see nowhere in the Bible, or in scholarship points to it.
Tom said: Thanks for nothing. I have no intention of allowing myself to be censored by you or anyone, including Spectrum, which has recently conspired to censor Adventist Reform, even as they try to raise money so they can promote “reform.” They are typical liars, like all SDA’s.
No wonder the word “truth” is no long associated or used by the SDA’s. They have long ago become embarrassed of such a word, and for good reason. They have very little, if any.
The Gospel is not about censorship or trying to manipulate the discussion away from the issues. This is how the Jews acted, and look what happened to them? The SDA’s will never escape their dysfunction if they keep censoring the facts and running from the issues. Censorship and searching for truth are the opposite.
Bob 2 said: You are an army of one that can not show the mandate and your further talk, shows where your falsehood is based. Feel free to post. But NCT is far from refuted, by your singular declaration, it is arrogant and shows lack of discernment.
Tom said: Regardless whether an army of one or one million, NCT has been exposed as utter nonsense and double-talk for all to see. It is an absurd and ludicrous solution to the false Sabbath doctrine of the SDA’s. It is no solution at all; only more false and confused doctrine for those not being saved. Pitiful.
Conclusion
While the SDA’s are correct that Sunday is wrong, and that only the 7th day can be the NC Sabbath; they have misunderstood Jesus amazing, reformed, Sabbath doctrine where activity has replaced rest, and the 4th Commandment has been made moot by Christ.
The “blind” SDA’s should stop pretending that they have all Gospel truth. They are not even close. In fact, their most prominent doctrine, the 7th day Sabbath, is wrong, wrong, wrong. Which means they must repent, and focus on serious Adventist Reform.
As for NCT, their proposed Sabbath solution is also wrong and anti-Christ. They too must repent for their false and absurd doctrine of the Sabbath, and only embrace the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Is anyone listening?
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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Tom, what puzzles me about conversations with you here and watching you do the same on Experts, you never once show where Jesus taught the Sabbath. Please supply it or go away!!! It is the issue at hand.
Last edited by bob_2 (05-15-14 4:46 pm)
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Tom, if you can back this up you might have something:
Tom replied: While Jesus does not teach a holy 7th day, where it is sinful to work, he does teach an active, guilt-free, Sabbath doctrine, which is supported by the Priesthood of All Believers. Jesus Sabbath instruction is found in all four Gospels.
Give the supporting texts, not via your surmising. Let the Bible speak for itself.
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NC Sabbath Defeats NCT; Paving The Way For Adventist Reform
Bob 2 said: Chapter 15 Our Creeds [Lists of Fundamentals] and How They Affect Our Understanding. Bear with me again, while I wax, eloquent??? What is a Creed? As defined:
Creed: a brief authoritative formula of religious belief
2: a set of fundamental beliefs [SDAs now have 28]
3: a guiding principle
From a book I have been reviewing, "New Covenant Theology" by Wells and Zaspel, Wells sums up the divisions among Christian denominations this way:
"1. Our creeds and confessions are one immense barrier to unity.
Tom replied: Correct. This goes for the SDA’s as well. They operate from their own incorrect, 19th century views, which they have made into a creed in 1980, following the debacle of Glacier View.
Glacier View was the start of the great 20th century, SDA schism. The Adventists have been going downhill and losing MILLIONS of members ever since. Why? Because their IJ based Creed is full of error and false doctrines, as well as false and manipulated church history.
Let everyone understand, the SDA’s are self-destructing because they have not only rejected the Gospel in 1980, but also because they have embraced false views about both Adventist history and doctrine. Glacier View was the place where the SDA leaders, not Dr. Ford, repudiated Ellen White and the Fundamental pillars that govern the Three Angels Messages.
The 27 Fundamentals, (now 28), is the written creed for the SDA’s. It represented the victory of the Takoma Park apologists, (over the objections of Dr. Ford, etc) to resurrect and codify Uriah Smith’s Battle Creek errors that led to the great 1888 disaster. It was as if the Takoma Park leaders were trying to re-create the disastrous 1888 debate and force it to come out in a different, more positive manner. But history is not so easily toyed with, especially if it is dishonestly manipulated into a staged outcome.
Glacier View was a repeat of the theology that destroyed the Battle Creek Empire. It represented Old Covenant Adventism at is worst, and so too the written creed that resulted. Unless Adventism repents for what happened in 1888 and the subsequent cover-up in Takoma Park, and for Glacier View and the creed that followed, the Advent Movement will die.
The SDA’s must admit their errors and correct them. Errors such as the IJ, Tithe, OC Sabbath keeping, and the Muslim doctrine of abstinence. They must also update their Sunday based eschatology and get serious about how the world will end in the 21st century.
Today, it is clear that MILLIONS of baptized members have walked out the door, rejecting OC Adventism. And more leave all the time. The SDA creed is full of false doctrine. It needs to be re-written. Adventism must become TRANSFORMED into a NEW COVENANT community. This is their only hope.
Bob 2 posted: 2. There is no easy or obvious way to cross this divide." Page 259.
Tom replied: Wrong. It should be very obvious that tradition should take a back seat to what Jesus teaches in the Gospels. If this primary rule is followed, the church can reach unity in the Gospel, which includes an agreement about the definition of the NC Sabbath.
Today, few pay any attention to what Jesus teaches, which is why no denomination teaches the correct, genuine, NC Sabbath of Christ. NONE! No wonder Jesus has condemned the entire Laodicean Church, calling them blind, naked, and wretched. They don’t know the Gospel Story very well or what Christ really teaches. They are only pretending to “see” correct theology, just like the “blind” Pharisees in the Sabbath debates. (See John 9)
Bob 2 said: Oh you say, sometime in my SDA education I was told we don't have creeds, and if you attend other than an SDA church occasionally, you might believe that because, as the order of worship, creeds are read congregationally. However, look at the definition. A creed is a set of fundamental beliefs. Which the SDA church has 28 Fundamental Beliefs, I have the old version of 27.
Tom said: Yes, the SDA’s are being very untruthful when they claim they don’t have a written Creed. Of course they do. It was written directly after Glacier View in 1980. It is very wrong, full of error and confusion, including the errors of the IJ, Tithe, as well as a false Gospel, including a false, OC view of the Sabbath.
As creeds go, it is one of the worst and most theologically absurd. Most of what the SDA’s teach for “fundamental” truth is really “fundamental ERROR!” For which they must repent. Today, myths pass for facts and no SDA really claims to understand present truth. The SDA’s are blind to truth, and so too the NCT crowd. They are just as wrong and stubborn.
Bob 2 said: Are these barriers to our open discussion and study of Truth and God's Word?? How many of your high school chums or dates, had an interest in, let alone an understanding of what they believe?
Tom replied: Ha! The SDA’s are no longer searching for truth. Which is why they do not allow any serious discussion about their awful creed. Glacier View was “show trial,” a farce, and so too the 1888 debates in the 19th century. After a certain point in history, the SDA’s became wedded to their traditions and stopped searching for truth, even covering it up.
Today, not even Spectrum allows open and free discussion, as they loudly claim. Which means they are great liars, because they assert they are looking to save the dysfunctional and dying Advent Movement through open discussion, when they are doing no such thing; they are part of the problem. It is not truth they seek, but money to carry on their worthless scam of enabling a corrupt, anti-Christ hierarchy to highjack and mislead the Advent Community.
Adventist Reform, which stands on the shoulders of Dr. Ford, has been blacklisted from the very moment Tom Norris started posting online 15 years ago. Every SDA media outlet refuses to allow any serious discussion about what Tom Norris found hidden in the Archives and
White Estate. Why is that? Pitiful.
Bob 2 said: Wells and Zaspel come out of Reformed Theology and the concepts they are presenting they have found are not easily discussed because there are those that cling out of habit to what has been assembled in a creed or confession, such as the Westminster Confession.
Tom replied: The SDA’s are not the only ones that formed a creed and then refused further investigation of doctrine. This is human nature. The Jews did the exact same thing. When Christ came, with his many new changes about the law, Sabbath, the Priesthood, and salvation, he did not stand much of a chance of convincing the Jews to change the OC into the NC. The OC “creed” of Moses was defended by the Jews to the death. Most would not accept the NC.
John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”
John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
Bob 2 said: If you have ever perused it (googled it) you can see what I am getting at, especially it's manmade position on the Sabbath.
Tom said: Adventist Reform is not about defending creeds. That is hardly a method calculated to find truth. At this point in history, every denominational creed is faulty and wrong. Not one has the correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath. Most don’t even have the correct day! And those that do, like the SDA’s, have embraced the Sabbath doctrine of Jesus enemies; not what Christ teaches in the Gospels.
It is time for the church to finally and fully understand the Gospel, which includes the doctrine of the Sabbath, as well as eschatology and all else. The end of the world is near, the Laodicean Church stands under the judgment of Christ in the real PAJ, which is the LM. It is time for the Advent Movement to pay attention and repent for the mess they have made of the 3rd Angels Message; moving on the 4th Angels Message, where all doctrine must synchronize with the Gospel of Christ.
Bob 2 said: NCT does believe that the Old and New Covenant have a "fracture point" or point of "discontinuity".
Tom replied: NCT wants to “abolish” the 7th day Sabbath, and the Sunday Sabbath doctrine as well. They do not wish to understand this NC doctrine as taught by Christ, but to destroy and manipulate it because they think they have found some great insight about the Two Covenants. They are anti-Christ as well as anti-Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: If you read the texts that I have given, something happened, a change in beliefs at the cross, no longer does Lev 23 ceremonial festivals apply, and number one on that list is the Sabbath. One can not ignore some of this.
Tom replied: It is very difficult to correctly understand the difference between the OC and the NC. In fact, this was a major point of contention within the early church and later with Marcion, and then again during the Reformation. It is the most problematic of theological endeavors, with the RC’s taking a different view from the Protestants.
When the Gospel instruction of Christ is correctly understood, so too the doctrine of the (7th day) Sabbath. Misunderstand the active and reformed Sabbath, and you have misunderstood Christ and the Two Covenants. Few understand that the active and guilt free NC Sabbath of Christ is a reflection of the Priesthood of All Believers, as well as freedom from for those not under the law.
Jesus does not teach anyone to obey the 4th Commandment. That is what his enemies taught. This was a stunning point for the Jews to hear, and for the SDA’s today that are clueless as to what Jesus really teaches about the 7th day. Like the Jews, they are blind to the Gospel and the NC Sabbath.
Bob 2 said: The splitting of the Jewish system by SDA scholars, or shall I say Covenant Theology Scholars have divided it into ceremonial, civil, and moral. As I have studied, the Bible does not do this but treats the Jewish Covenant as one: Exodus 34:28; Luke 24:44; 2 Cor 3:7-11(notice the word "transitory" in reference to the Decalogue, the center of the 1st Covenant); Col 2:16,17; 1 Cor 9:21 and Hebrews 8:13.
Tom said: Most all Christians are confused about the Law and the Gospel. In fact, the RC’s hold a very different position from the Protestants, one that reflects OC Judaism, not the Gospel.
In spite of what many teach, including the SDA’s, no Christian is “under” the 10 Commandment law. Not even when it comes to the 4th Commandment. This is what Galatians is all about.
No wonder the SDA’s went to war over this book. They did not understand law, Gospel, or the Sabbath correctly. Their views of the Two Covenants were warped and way off base. The 1888 debates made these errors public, showing how divided the leaders had become over doctrine. The Battle Creek Church self-destructed 12 years later as a result.
While the SDA’s were correct about the 7th day versus the 1st, they were not paying attention to what Jesus was teaching, because he was not instructing anyone to stop working on the Sabbath, like Moses. Had they been honest about the Galatian debate, they would have been forced to abandon their legalist view of the 7th day, exchanging it for the active and guiltless, NC, Gospel Sabbath of Christ.
What’s done is done. Now there must be zealous repentance and the promotion of the correct, NC version of the Sabbath, which is “new light” for the church. New light that should have become understood by the SDA’s way back in 1888. Here is Ellen White’s, post 1888 response to the question of new light for the church:
Ellen White & New Light:
The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?"
I answer that he has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the word of truth.
We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us.
We are not making the most of the light, which the Lord has already given us, and thus we fail to receive the increased light; we do not walk in light already shed upon us.
{RH, June 3, 1890 par. 2} {1SM 401.2}
We must not for a moment think that there is no more light, no more truth to be given us. We are in danger of becoming careless, by our indifference losing the sanctifying power of truth, and composing ourselves with the thought, "I am rich and increased with goods, and have need of nothing." [REV. 3:17.] While we must hold fast to the truths, which we have already received, we must not look with suspicion upon any new light that God may send.
{GW92 390.1} {RH, August 7, 1894 par. 1} {GW 310.4} Ellen G. White, Gospel Workers (1892), page 390, paragraph 1
"There are mines of truth yet to be discovered." (5T 704).
"We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light yet to come to us." (RH, June 3, 1890).
"There are old, yet new truths still to be added to the treasures of our knowledge." (RH: February 25, 1890).
"There are bright and important truths of which we only discern the shadows." (E.G. White, Letter 147, 1897).
"Investigation of every point that has been received as truth will repay the searcher: He will find precious gems. And in closely investigating ever jot and tittle which we think is established truth, in comparing Scripture with Scripture, we may discover errors in our interpretation of Scripture." (RH: July 12, 1889; par. 15).
http://www.enjoying-the-spirit-filled-l … uotes.html
Today, there is New Light ABOUT THE SABBATH for the Adventist Community. Is anyone listening? Does anyone care?
Bob asked: Is Christ's Law the Decalogue?
Tom said: No. This term, the law of Christ, is used by Paul to define the teachings and sayings of Jesus as opposed to Moses’ OC doctrines. Thus the Sabbath law of Christ is what JESUS teaches in the Gospel about the 7th day. It is not, not, not, what Moses teaches in the OT. The Law of Moses is not, not, not, the same as the Law of Christ.
Gal. 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
1Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
1Cor. 9:21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
Bob 2 said: Those that are reading or care about this topic, read about God setting another day for Christians in Hebrews 4:6-11. He is not talking the Sabbath here but on any day one can have "soul rest" as Jesus said he would give in Matt 11:29. This is forgiveness of sins, not mere physical rest on one day in seven.
Tom replied: First, everyone should care about the doctrine of the Sabbath because it was one of Christ’s favorite topics. It also underscores the fact that he is the creator of the world and the original, non-Semitic, 7th day Sabbath. One cannot fully understand the Gospel, unless the NC Sabbath teachings of Christ are also comprehended.
Second, the definition of the NC Sabbath cannot be defined or controlled by any remarks from the unknown author of Hebrews. Only what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, in the Gospels, is doctrine for the church. Others do not have such primacy or authority as compared to Christ.
Third, there is no such term as “soul rest.” Nor is this mythical term in any way associated with the NC Sabbath of Christ. In fact, Jesus refused to embrace the OC, passive, Sabbath of Moses and the 4th Commandment. He REFUSED to “rest” on the 7th day, teaching that activity and good works now replaces the Law of the 4th Commandment.
Fourth, this passage in Hebrews supports the NC Sabbath, not the OC Sabbath of Moses, or the later developing Sunday Sabbath or the recently invented Every Day Sabbath of NCT. Only the NC Sabbath, as taught by Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, is genuine and true Gospel doctrine.
The Sabbath in Colossians & Hebrews
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242
Bob 2 said: Just an observation about TRUTH; Truth is not subjective.
Tom replied: Agreed. Gospel Truth must rest on the words, teachings, and sayings of Christ in the Gospels. Jesus is truth, light, and Eternal Life. Those that misunderstand Christ, are left embracing worthless error. All of Laodicea misunderstands Christ’s Gospel teachings. The various confused and conflicting doctrines of the Sabbath proves this point for all to see.
Neither the SDA’s nor the NCT crowd has solved the Sabbath conundrum. Thanks to Dr. Ford, the genuine doctrine has finally emerged. The active and reformed, NC, 7th day, Sabbath is Present Truth for the last church.
Bob 2 said: Yes, there are texts in the Bible that allow differing positions to be possible, and debatable. But, in accepting TRUTH one has to recognize this and treat other TRUTH seekers evenly.
Tom said: There is only one Gospel and one Christ. There is only one, narrow, path of truth that leads to Eternal life, not many.
Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
This idea that there are many ways to view the Bible; is a diversion, an excuse for false doctrine and pluralism. Jesus does not hold such a view, so why should his followers?
When an honest and professional hermeneutic is employed, Gospel doctrine can be readily understood.
However, it is a fact of history that those in religious power soon become corrupted. Tradition and politics trump truth. The Jews, as well as the church are two prime examples where the debate over doctrine revolved around what was true and what was not.
The Protestant Reformation featured a correct and more honest methodology than the RCC, and this hermeneutical knowledge has been improved and updated to the point where we can readily comprehend the context and intent of the original authors today.
So forget this nonsense that the Bible can be understood in many different ways, making it impossible to understand truth. That is only true for those too lazy, pre-occupied, uneducated, or dishonest to use the proper methods. The Bible contains clear Gospel Truth for those serious about Eternal Life. Those that honestly seek, will find.
Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Luke 12:29 “And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying.
Luke 12:30 “For all these things the nations of the world eagerly seek; but your Father knows that you need these things.
Luke 12:31 “But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you.
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Bob 2 said: To shun so your position doesn't have to be revealed is not Peacemaker status for the shunner, but cowardice. To keep silent at this point stalls the shunner's journey as a TRUTH seeker.
Tom replied: Correct. This is what the SDA’s do. They censor their critics instead of holding serious discussions to deal with the issues. This is why they are dying. They refuse to discuss the very issues that must be discussed, shunning those like Dr. Ford, and now Tom Norris, that push for much needed Gospel reform.
Rather than admit they were wrong about 1888 and Glacier View, they stubbornly pretend they have made no errors and hold no false doctrines. Thus silencing the very discussion about Gospel Reform that needs to take place.
Thank heaven for the Internet, which is like the modern day Guttenberg Press that made the Reformation possible. Such an invention makes it impossible for anyone to silence criticism or stop debate, much less control the agenda. Today, the planet is wired so that the Gospel can be preached to all. Those true of heart can find each other, and prepare for the great Tribulation, which has never been closer.
Adventist Reform is not going to go away because the leaders have determined it should be censored, silenced, and stopped. The very fact these wolves have worked so hard to keep Adventist Reform away from the Community proves they fear what it contains. Wolves are not dumb animals; they are cunning, smart, and deadly, unlike sheep.
However, Gospel truth is not easily intimidated. Adventist Reform cannot be silenced or censored away. Which is why those that seek truth can go online and view the details of Adventist Reform, including the facts that prove the White Estate corrupt, even though this discussion is off limits within the Adventist Community. Shunning no longer works in the 21st century. Neither do “cover-ups.”
Bob 2 said: Peacemakers are not those that ignore the confrontation. Sometimes confrontation and revelation must be used to reveal the position of both sides to become evident. By confrontation I do not mean abusive tone, or volume, or shameful remarks. It tests the TRUTH seeker, will he/she be willing to overturn the moneychangers tables with a whip in hand or go silent and allow the UNTRUTH to remain.
Tom replied: Why do you think Adventist Reform, which is a NC paradigm, is censored, shunned, and banished by the OC minded SDA Denomination? The leaders realize that cannot refute any point. They are beginning to see that the OC and the NC cannot be successfully mixed, which is what they have done.
They also know that Tom Norris caught Author White manipulating and falsifying the record, which is a criminal situation, as well as moral. And that the cover-up put in place has come undone for all to see.
Moreover, they know that the IJ cannot be defended, and now they fear that their dishonest income stream from OC tithing is also under attack, along with most of what they teach, including their great doctrine of the Sabbath. It is an overwhelming situation that has caused millions and millions to leave. Unless there is serious, careful reform, including repentance, the Advent Movement will die.
Rather then welcome the chance to repent and update their many false doctrines, the leaders shut off serious discussion and pretend they have all truth. Then they hold a so-called “historic” and “unprecedented” meeting to find a way to address this crisis by “rebranding” Adventism. What does that even mean to the hierarchy? Not anything serious about doctrine.
What they are talking about when they “examine the church’s mission structure”?
Answer: The leaders are trying to cut down the bloated and failing bureaucracy. This is an exercise in downsizing and budget slashing. Which is why the Review is also being shut down. Adventism is dying; no one should be fooled any more.
The leaders have been going in the wrong direction for so long that this situation was inevitable. But yet, they still don’t understand that it is their false doctrine and arrogant behavior that has caused millions to leave the church. While top-heavy budgets must be slashed, so too false doctrine that is destroying the Advent Movement.
http://www.adventistreview.org/church-n … -structure
The SDA’s need to “re-examine” their doctrines, including what they teach about Ellen White. They need to “re-examine” why the history of 1888 has been covered up by the White Estate, and what the real issues were that caused the church to self-destruct in Battle Creek.
Unless the SDA’s deal with the heart of the problem, which is their incorrect theology, they can never resolve the issues. The need a complete overhaul and re-organization. Otherwise, they will die.
Bob 2 said: Tom, what puzzles me about conversations with you here and watching you do the same on Experts, you never once show where Jesus taught the Sabbath. Please supply it or go away!!! It is the issue at hand.
Tom replied: Bob, you are a great liar. Why are you being a false witness? Don’t you know that it was the enemies of Christ that used “false testimony” to send him to the cross? Why are you playing these same games? To defend NCT?
Matt. 26:59 Now the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain false testimony against Jesus, so that they might put Him to death.
Luke 18:20 “You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’”
Eph. 4:25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.
Come on Bob, we have gone over this many times. I have quoted scores of Jesus’ NC Sabbath instruction, including his famous statement that the original, and the NC Sabbath, was made for all mankind, which you refuse to believe. You reject Jesus words and claim he meant the OC Sabbath, which is only for the Jews.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
Regardless if you believe Christ or not; Stop making the false statement that Tom Norris has never shown you any passages “where Jesus taught the Sabbath.” It is a knowingly false statement. Shame on you.
You sound like the Pharisees that refused to believe Jesus Sabbath healings were real. Because if they were real, meaning from God,-then Jesus would also be from God. But God does not allow work on the 7th day, -that is sinful. So it was very confusing for the Jews.
See also:
NC Sabbath @ All Experts.Com
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
So the Jews struggled with this conundrum, denying the facts they did not want to hear. While the now sighted man believed in Jesus, the Pharisees refused to accept or believe that Jesus, the Sabbath breaker, was from God, or that he had just healed a blind man on the Sabbath. The Jews REFUSED to believe the Gospel evidence, just like so many today.
Here is a portion from of a very interesting and instructive Sabbath debate in John 9. It was Jesus and the NC Sabbath versus the Jews, with their OC Sabbath doctrine from Moses. (Note: There are two earlier Sabbath debates in John 5 or 7.)
John 9:10 So they were saying to him, “How then were your eyes opened?”
John 9:11 He answered, “The man who is called Jesus made clay, and anointed my eyes, and said to me, ‘Go to Siloam and wash’; so I went away and washed, and I received sight.”
John 9:12 They said to him, “Where is He?” He *said, “I do not know.”
John 9:13 They brought to the Pharisees the man who was formerly blind.
John 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
John 9:15 Then the Pharisees also were asking him again how he received his sight. And he said to them, “He applied clay to my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
John 9:17 So they said to the blind man again, “What do you say about Him, since He opened your eyes?” And he said, “He is a prophet.”
John 9:18 The Jews then did not believe it of him, that he had been blind and had received sight, until they called the parents of the very one who had received his sight,
John 9:19 and questioned them, saying, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? Then how does he now see?”
John 9:20 His parents answered them and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind;
John 9:21 but how he now sees, we do not know; or who opened his eyes, we do not know. Ask him; he is of age, he will speak for himself.”
John 9:22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews; for the Jews had already agreed that if anyone confessed Him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.
John 9:23 For this reason his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”
John 9:24 So a second time they called the man who had been blind, and said to him, “Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner.”
John 9:25 He then answered, “Whether He is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I do know, that though I was blind, now I see.”
John 9:26 So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”
John 9:27 He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen; why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become His disciples too, do you?”
John 9:28 They reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are disciples of Moses.
John 9:29 “We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where He is from.”
John 9:30 The man answered and said to them, “Well, here is an amazing thing, that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes.
John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.
John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.
John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”
John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.
Read the rest of this long Sabbath debate, and stop pretending Jesus has nothing to say or teach about the 7th day Sabbath. There are scores and scores of verses in the Gospels where Jesus directly deals with his NC doctrine of the Sabbath. Those who deny such teaching exist, --deny Christ. They are acting like the faithless Jews in the Gospel Story that refused to embrace Jesus NC Sabbath doctrine.
The NCT crowd (as well as others) is walking in the evil footsteps of the Pharisees by refusing to believe that Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the Sabbath. They are so “blind” as to deny, not that Jesus healed a man born blind, but that Jesus teaches a NC, 7th day Sabbath for the church. They can “see” no such doctrine. Nor do they want to open their eyes so as to see.
Like the Pharisees who denied the public evidence right in front of their faces, (the healed man born blind), the NCT crowd claims no one can show “where Jesus taught the Sabbath. Please supply it or go away!!!”
Really? You have seen no Gospel passages where Christ teaches about the Sabbath? And no one has shown you any such texts? Really? Come on Bob, you can’t be serious?
The entire 9th chapter of John, some of which is quoted above, is all about Jesus NC Sabbath instruction versus the status quo of the OC Sabbath. And don’t forget chapters 5 and 7; they too are full of Jesus Sabbath teachings. The Gospel of John contains more Sabbath instruction from Christ than any other Gospel. But yet, you claim no such Gospel instruction exits.
You must be spiritually blind.
NCT is blind to the Gospel Sabbath of Christ by choice. Just like the Jews that were blind to Jesus healing the blind man. No doubt if the NCT crowd were around in the 1st century, they too would doubt, like the Pharisees, that Jesus healed anyone. They too would question and deny what had taken place right in full view of the public, even as they also refused to try and understand Jesus’ NC Sabbath doctrine.
Of course Jesus responded to their refusal to believe the living evidence, (the now sighted blind man from birth), and judged the Pharisees to be ”blind” by choice. The man born blind was not blind by his own choice. But the Pharisees, refusing to see the evidence, became blind by choice. They choose to deny the facts, which led to their rejection of the Gospel and their well-deserved condemnation.
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”
John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
It is a GOSPEL FACT that Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. This is self-evident to anyone that reads the Gospels, especially the book of John that contains a number of long Sabbath debates.
Jesus’ view of the Sabbath is very different from what the confused SDA’s teach, or what anyone teaches today, especially NCT, and it is only a matter of time before this stunning point is understood by all that have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Many will never comprehend the Gospel teaching of Christ, and thus they will never understand the Sabbath.
Let all understand; Jesus condemned those that rejected his active, reformed view of the 7th day Sabbath. This should be warning for the NCT crowd, but somehow, they missed the memo. It should also be a warning to the SDA’s that refuse to even consider the fact they could be in error about the Sabbath.
Anyone that denies these clear and repeated facts of the Gospel Story are denying Jesus and his NC Sabbath just like the Pharisees. Christ compares them to “thieves, robbers, and wolves.”
Jesus does not teach a Sunday Sabbath or an Every Day Sabbath doctrine. Nor does he teach a resting Sabbath at all, much less the SDA view that Christ teaches the 4th Commandment. No. Christ does not, not, not, teach the 4th Commandment. If he had, then the Jews would not have been outraged at his Sabbath theology.
The SDA’s have made legalistic fools of themselves for all to see. They must repent and correct their doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. This is where they must start.
At the conclusion of this long Sabbath debate, which takes up all of chapter 9, with its 41 verses, and another 21 verses in chapter 10, the Jews were stunned, divided, and confused. They had never seen such a dramatic miracle where the blind man was given site, nor had they heard such confusing and strange Sabbath theology. High drama, tension, and joy, with plenty of fear, anger, and guilt to go around.
John 10:19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
Few Christians today understand Jesus’ NC theology, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Tradition, double-talk, and censorship is the context for what every denomination teaches about the Sabbath, including the SDA’s that were certain that had found the full and complete doctrine. Few know Christ and what he really teaches in the Gospels. Pity.
No wonder there is no correct doctrine of the Sabbath in the church today. The religious leaders are not paying attention to Jesus about anything, much less the Sabbath. Only when the words of Christ are acknowledged, understood, and embraced, can true Gospel doctrine emerge for the “blind” Laodiceans.
Bob 2 said: Tom, if you can back this up you might have something:
Tom replied: Let all understand, the discovery and articulation of the NC Sabbath of Christ, is the long awaited paradigm shift to the 4th Angels Message. So this is “something” not only big, but vital to the survival of the Advent Movement.
The active and reformed, NC doctrine of the Sabbath is a clear signal for the people of the Three Angels Messages to push forward, until the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath and Eschatology, are correctly understood. The Pioneers referred to this future time as the Loud Cry. That time is here.
While Jesus does not teach a holy 7th day, where it is sinful to work, he does teach an active, guilt-free, Sabbath doctrine, which is supported by the Priesthood of All Believers. What Jesus teaches is true doctrine for the church.
Bob 2 said: Give the supporting texts, not via your surmising. Let the Bible speak for itself.
Tom replied: Every Gospel contains Jesus active and reformed Sabbath teaching, making it impossible to overlook, much less claim no such theology exists. While the Gospel of John contains the most information about this topic, each of the synoptic Gospels also feature Jesus amazing Sabbath doctrine. Only a “blind” person could read the Gospels and deny what Christ so clearly and repeatedly teaches.
Adventist Reform is on to something very big. The genuine 7th day Sabbath of Christ has been found for all to see. This represents the final eschatological paradigm shift for the Advent Movement. It is Present Truth for the 21st century church.
It is time for the Advent Community to reject doctrinal error and hierarchical fraud, and instead, repent for the many errors of Traditional Adventism, 1888, and Glacier View, and focus on the search for truth. The SDA’s were on the road to truth at one time, but they have take a number of wrong turns and now they are lost, refusing to admit it and ask for directions.
It is time for New Covenant Adventism to emerge. The end of the world is closer then ever before. It is time for the Advent Movement to rise, shine, and due its duty.
So I say again: It is time for the church to finally and fully understand the Gospel, which includes the doctrine of the Sabbath, as well as eschatology and all else.
The end of the world is near, the Laodicean Church stands under the judgment of Christ in the real PAJ, which is the LM. It is time for the Advent Movement to pay attention and repent for the mess they have made of the 3rd Angels Message; moving on to the 4th Angels Message, where all doctrine must synchronize with the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism and the 4th Angels Message
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Tom, you don't have anything to contribute. No texts showing Jesus taught a New Covenant Sabbath, just your speculation that when Jesus said He and His Father have always been working, you think your New Covenant working Sabbath is proven. Jesus and God had been working on Salvation since before the foundations of the earth. Your working Sabbath, allowing secular pursuits is no solution. Jesus became the Sabbath Rest, fulfilled that part of the 10 Commandments requiring rest, He gave rest, forgiveness of sins and became our Peace. Matthew 11:29; Luke 24:44: and Eph 2:14, 15
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Those two verses are so simple about this subject, I come away shaking my head at the simplicity and you and the SDA church not being able to see what Jesus did and His purpose for coming to the earth was.
Last edited by bob_2 (05-25-14 1:46 am)
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Bob, you are a silly blind man that thinks he can see. Don’t you realize that YOU are acting like the Pharisees in John 9 that refused to believe Jesus was from God because he was a Sabbath breaker?
The Jews concluded that Jesus did not really heal anyone on the Sabbath, because God does not support those that break the 4th Commandment. And if by some chance these accounts were true, then Jesus did this through the power of Satan.
Either way, they were never going to believe Jesus’ Gospel with its strange working Sabbath, which is based on an even stranger view of the Priesthood and the Temple. So they denied the very evidence in front of their face, (the healed blind man), and refused to embrace Christ.
You are doing the same thing. While you don’t seem to deny that Jesus healed the man born blind, you do deny that Christ teaches a NC, 7th day Sabbath for the church, even though such evidence is clearly contained in the Gospels. By denying the written evidence of Jesus NC Sabbath, you deny Christ and the Gospel, just like the Pharisees. Thus Christ speaks to you as he did to the Gospel hating, law keeping, tithe paying, Jews.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
It is a GOSPEL FACT that Jesus teaches a NC doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. This is not an “opinion” but a clear fact of the record, which is self-evident to anyone that reads the Gospels, especially the book of John that contains a number of long Sabbath debates.
Jesus’ view of the Sabbath is very different from what the confused SDA’s teach, or what anyone teaches today, including NCT, and it is only a matter of time before this stunning point is understood by all that have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Many will never comprehend the Gospel teachings of Christ, and thus they will never understand the Sabbath. You may be stuck in this category.
Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
Let all understand; Jesus condemned those that rejected his active, reformed view of the 7th day Sabbath. This should be warning for the NCT crowd, but somehow, they missed the memo. It should also be a warning to the SDA’s that, like the Jews, refuse to even consider the fact they could be in error about the Sabbath.
Anyone that denies these clear and repeated facts of the Gospel Story are denying Jesus and his NC Sabbath just like the Pharisees. Christ compares them to “thieves, robbers, and wolves.”
Jesus does not teach a Sunday Sabbath or an Every Day Sabbath doctrine. Nor does he teach a resting Sabbath at all, much less the SDA view that Christ teaches the 4th Commandment. No. Christ does not, not, not, teach the 4th Commandment. If he had, then the Jews would not have been outraged at his Sabbath theology.
The SDA’s have made legalistic fools of themselves for all to see, and the NCT crowd is acting no better. They must both repent and correct their doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, as must every denomination and church in the world. To reject Jesus NC Sabbath, is to reject the Gospel, which is what the Jews did and what the present church has also done.
So Bob, you stand self-condemned, spiritually blind and naked, like everyone else in Laodicea. Unable to comprehend the Gospel teachings of Christ, which include what he teaches about the 7th day. Sad.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Bob the blind said: Tom, you don't have anything to contribute.
Tom replied: Ha! This is what Jesus’ critics said to him. The Jews regarded law far above the Gospel, which they could not understand. They were blind to confront, harass, and dismiss their Messiah, rejecting the only theology that could save them. Here is the greatest blunder in the history of mankind, one that has been repeated by the Church.
Mark 3:22 The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons.”
Those that are in the dark, unable to comprehend the Gospel, think they see things perfectly. But the Sabbath debates between Jesus and the Jews exposes such religious pretenders as spiritually blind. Anyone that refuses to embrace Jesus active and reformed Sabbath has rejected Christ and will die in their sins. They are judged blind by choice, treated as criminals in the Judgment Day.
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
Bob the blind said: (Tom, you show) No texts showing Jesus taught a New Covenant Sabbath, just your speculation that when Jesus said He and His Father have always been working, you think your New Covenant working Sabbath is proven.
Tom replied: This is the problem with being blind; it is very difficult to see things. Even worse, some people like to be blind and shut their eyes on purpose so that they won’t see anything that refutes their point of view. This is the game the Jews played with Jesus.
The Jews were blind and deaf to the teachings of Christ. All they heard was error, sin, and blasphemy from his mouth. Even Christ, who had the power to make the blind see and the deaf hear, could not heal these stubborn critics that refused to understand the Gospel or embrace his NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which Jesus based on a change in the Priesthood.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Bob the blind said: Jesus and God had been working on Salvation since before the foundations of the earth.
Tom said: The Sabbath is connected to the creation of the world. This is when it started. So your point makes no sense.
Bob the blind said: Your working Sabbath, allowing secular pursuits is no solution.
Tom replied: The solution for every church and denomination in Laodicea; is to repent of their false doctrines and embrace the Gospel teachings of Christ. This also applies to the doctrine of the Sabbath, which no church teaches correctly.
Moreover, we are not to question Christ or second-guess what he means, as if he did not understand what he was saying. The Gospels are very clear as to what Christ teaches about the 7th day and what he does not. No one has any right to change the Gospel Story. But alas, this is what every church has done. The end result is total condemnation from Christ in the Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church.
Bob the blind said: Jesus became the Sabbath Rest, fulfilled that part of the 10 Commandments requiring rest, He gave rest, forgiveness of sins and became our Peace. Matthew 11:29; Luke 24:44: and Eph 2:14, 15.
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Those two verses are so simple about this subject, I come away shaking my head at the simplicity and you and the SDA church not being able to see what Jesus did and His purpose for coming to the earth was.
Tom replied: This recent idea that Jesus is our Sabbath Rest, is not supported by the Gospels. Jesus nowhere makes such a statement in connection with the Sabbath. NCT teaches false doctrine for those spiritually dumb enough to think it true. NCT is not a solution for anyone that is honest or educated. It is only for the spiritually blind and deaf, for those delusional, lazy, and trite.
Only a minority of Jews understood Jesus Gospel and embraced it. Sadly this is normative. Just as the vast majority rejected Jesus view of the Gospel and the Sabbath, so too at the end of time. Most that claim to follow God, will reject the Gospel and misunderstand the Sabbath, happily embracing false doctrine in the name of God.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Any that refuse to embrace the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ have fallen from grace. They don’t know Christ, and thus they are following a false, worthless Christ. They should have known. They could have known.
John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
In conclusion, the active and reformed Sabbath of Christ has defeated the nonsense of NCT. Here is the correct solution to the OC Sabbath error of the SDA’s. Here is the completion of “Sabbath Reform” that the SDA’s started in 1847. The NCS (New Covenant Sabbath) is the genuine and correct Sabbath doctrine for the 4th Angels Message. Let all rejoice and be glad.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath of Christ
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Tom said:
Tom replied: This recent idea that Jesus is our Sabbath Rest, is not supported by the Gospels. Jesus nowhere makes such a statement in connection with the Sabbath. NCT teaches false doctrine for those spiritually dumb enough to think it true. NCT is not a solution for anyone that is honest or educated. It is only for the spiritually blind and deaf, for those delusional, lazy, and trite.
You just are not reading the texts supplied, here they are again: Matt 11:29; Luke 24:44. You just don't feel that Paul clarifies this issue with Col 2:16-17, or
2 Cor 3:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
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Because Jesus argues about the Sabbath, does not mean he argued for it to be part of His kingdom. 2 Cor 3 indicates the 10 Commandments were "transitory". I should follow your word over Jesus commissioned Apostle???
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Bob the blind said: Tom, You just are not reading the texts supplied, here they are again: Matt 11:29; Luke 24:44. You just don't feel that Paul clarifies this issue with Col 2:16-17…
Tom replied: First, Paul is not the Lord of the Sabbath or the creator of the world and the original 7th day Sabbath doctrine. So he is in no position to challenge Christ over the Sabbath, nor has he done any such thing.
All that wish to follow the genuine Christ must understand and embrace what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, NOT whatever they think PAUL teaches. Paul cannot trump any theology and teaching of Christ, much less about the 4th Commandment and the Sabbath.
1Cor. 1:13 …Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized 2in the name of Paul?
Acts 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene,
Acts 4:11 “He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.
Acts 4:12 “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
While Paul has written only a few short sentences about the Sabbath, the Gospels contain scores and scores of Sabbath teaching, argument, and debate from Christ, the self-proclaimed Lord of the NC, 7th day, Sabbath doctrine.
So Bob, I think it is you that refuses to “read the texts,” not me. I just showed you that the entire 9th chapter of John, 41 verses, is all about the Jesus’ NC Sabbath doctrine, which continues another 21 verses in chapter 10. Here are 60 verses about the NC Sabbath, and there is much more in this same book. See John 5, which is another long, 50 verses, Sabbath debate, with Jesus claiming that Eternal life is only for those that accept his NC view of the Sabbath.
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
There is also another long Sabbath debate in John 7, about 40 verses. There are over 100 verses in the book of John alone, where Jesus is teaching, defending, and promoting his new view of the Sabbath. But yet, NCT denies this Gospel data bases exists. They DENY that Christ has much of anything to say about the Sabbath, other then to abolish it. But the record proves them to be the world’s greatest liars. Shame on anyone being so incompetent and dishonest with the NT.
So Bob, we must be reading from different Bibles, because your claim that Jesus did not teach a NC doctrine of the Sabbath is fiction and myth. And so too this idea that Tom Norris is overlooking the few special texts you think you found to settle the long running Sabbath debate.
My Bible shows Jesus promoting his NC Sabbath from the very beginning of his ministry, and all the way along. Jesus’ Sabbath teachings, which are detailed and stunning, are featured in all four Gospels, and most prominently in John where there are over 100 verses.
A person would have to be “blind” to miss all this in just one Gospel book. And double blind to miss Jesus Sabbath teaching in the other three Gospels. For anyone to deny that Jesus teaches a 7th day doctrine of the Sabbath, is to deny Christ and the Gospel Story. Such a view is nothing more than anti-Gospel, anti-Christ, blasphemy.
There are scores of Gospel passages where Jesus promotes, debates, and defends his active and reformed, NC view of the 7th day Sabbath. This is not an “opinion,” but a clear, observable fact from the NT that cannot be credibly refuted.
Anyone that wants to understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, must seek Christ and learn from him in the Gospels. Those who refuse to be instructed by Christ, like you Bob, are blind on purpose, rejecting Jesus, as did the Jews. This is why you refuse to go to the correct passages where the Sabbath topic is under full discussion and debate by Christ. You don’t want to admit you were wrong and don’t want to believe what Jesus really teaches. Shame on you.
The passages you cite to explain and defend NCT are purposely manipulated and off point. Thus you have proven yourself so dishonest with the Word, that you will never be able to understand the Gospel with such a dishonest, unbelieving attitude. Those who are determined to embrace false doctrine will always find a way to be foolish. Mission accomplished.
Bob the blind said: Because Jesus argues about the Sabbath, it does not mean he argued for it to be part of His kingdom.
Tom replied: Jesus does more than argue about the Sabbath, he made it the centerpiece of his Gospel ministry. He also claims to be the Lord of the NC Sabbath, which he made for all mankind when the world was created. This means Jesus is taking authority over this creation-based doctrine, which he made long before there was an OC doctrine of the Sabbath. Jesus doctrine of the Sabbath is very different from Moses and the 4th Commandment. And also from what the confused SDA’s teach.
Matt. 4:23 Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.
Jesus Gospel features a very different view of the 7th day Sabbath from Moses. He teaches that his words on this doctrine, as well as others, are the basis for our fate in the Judgment Day. Do we understand and follow Christ, or have we followed a false and worthless Christ. How we view the Sabbath, determines the Christ we follow. Most have a false, mythical Jesus.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
If you want to understand the NC Sabbath, you must go to the passages in the Gospels where Christ teaches about, and debates, the Sabbath. It is not honest or sane to focus on a few diversionary passages that do not speak about the Sabbath, when there are so many long Sabbath passages from Christ to understand and embrace.
Good to see you admit that Jesus argues “about” the Sabbath; too bad you have failed to comprehend or embrace his NC arguments and theology. I expected you to say that Jesus “abolished” the Sabbath, because this is what you have previously claimed. For Christ to argue, debate, and DEFEND the Sabbath is the opposite of “abolishing” it.
Does Jesus teach that the 7th day Sabbath is abolished, or changed to Sunday or to EveryDay? Or does he teach a very different doctrine that stunned the Jews and sent them into a murderous rage? Those who refuse to study Jesus Sabbath teachings will never understand what they ignore and hate. Like the Jews, they have no intention of ever believing what they don’t want to believe.
So they close their eyes and pretend to be blind, denying the Gospel Sabbath. Just like the Jews who also refused to consider Jesus’ NC view of the Sabbath. NCT is for the blind and the faithless.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Bob the blind said: 2 Cor 3 indicates the 10 Commandments were "transitory". I should follow your word over Jesus commissioned Apostle???
Tom replied: You sound confused about the NC Sabbath. No surprise here. Of course the OC was temporary, and so too the 10 C’s. Let all understand that Jesus does not, not, not, teach that the 4th Commandment is to be embraced or obeyed by his followers. Neither does Paul. This is why the Jews became so angry with Christ and then Paul.
While all SDA’s have been brainwashed into thinking that Christ teaches and upholds the 4th Commandment, and that the 10 C’s are the meaning of life, and that obedience to them determines salvation, especially the 4th Commandment--this is absolute nonsense, error, and great theological fraud.
Today, the SDA’s are blind to the Gospel and to the correct, NC Sabbath. Like the tithe paying, OC Sabbath keeping Jews they emulate, they are blind to the genuine Gospel Sabbath, preferring the OC teachings of Moses above the Gospel teachings of Christ.
Let me repeat: Jesus does not teach the OC Sabbath of Moses, where it is sinful to light fires, cook, travel, or do any type of work or activity.
Misunderstand this critical fact, fact, fact, of the Gospel Story, and the Gospel teachings of Christ will not be understood, much less about the Sabbath. Such people end up following a false, mythical, and worthless Christ. Christ considers them blind, naked, and wretched in the real PAJ, which is the LM.
Misunderstand the NC Sabbath, and you can be sure you have also misunderstood the Gospel and the genuine teachings of Christ that are necessary to obtain Eternal life.
The SDA’s were hot on the trail of Gospel truth, but like the Jews, they lost their way. While they were correct to teach that Sunday is wrong, they failed to fully comprehend the Protestant Gospel and the NC Sabbath of Christ, which is based on the Priesthood of All Believers. Even worse, they have embraced the OC Sabbath doctrine of Moses with both hands, and so too tithing and an OC, hierarchical model. For which they must zealously repent or continue to self-destruct in confusion, double-talk, and corruption.
The reformed and active, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, is the correct Sabbath doctrine for the Advent Movement and for all Laodicea. It is “Present Truth” for those today that are paying attention to the Gospel teachings of Christ and unfolding prophecy.
Is anyone listening?
Tom Norris for the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath of Christ
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Tom, you do not give any proof of your unique doctrine. Jesus said it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath. The Jews and Jesus still had to comply with the Sabbath law until it was fulfilled by Jesus in His flesh on the cross.
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Are you calling these passages uninspired? False doctrine?? You are not commissioned as Paul was by Jesus himself. Jesus also sent the Holy Spirit, do you denigrate His teaching, note:
John 16: 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
In Jesus own words he says there is more than just what He has said on earth and the Holy Spirit will reveal Truth as given to Him by Jesus Himself. Are you calling Jesus a Liar, Tom Norris?? You are puffed up and your words are null and void. I will take Jesus and the Holy Spirit over you any day. You have supplied nothing to support your working Sabbath you call Reformed Adventism. What a joke you are, and embarrassing yourself to those that listen to you at www.AllExperts.com. You lie to those that believe you speak the truth.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-17-14 2:16 pm)
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Bob, the blind, still does not “see” the teachings of Christ clearly or correctly. So he said: “Tom, you do not give any proof of your unique doctrine.”
Tom replied: First, I do not promote my own doctrine, unique or otherwise. Rather, this discussion about the Sabbath is focused on what Jesus teaches about the 7th day and what he does not. And yes, what Jesus teaches is very “unique,” even amazing.
Second, your claim that more “proof” is necessary in order for you to embrace the Gospel teachings of Christ is not only wrong, but also familiar. This is what the Jews said to Jesus. They demanded more proof from him, even though thousands had seen his stunning public miracles with their own eyes. But they still doubted and wanted more proof for this new theology, which they were never going to embrace. So no amount of proof would convince them.
During a major Sabbath debate, Christ called out these religious experts who demanded more proof. He called them “blind,” even as they said he was empowered by the devil. So the Gospel Story features debates between Christ and the Jews over the law and the Sabbath, as well over the issue of doctrinal evidence and proof.
Those today that demand more proof, in addition to what Christ teaches in the NT, are following the unbelieving Jews, not Christ. While the Jewish leaders refused to believe that Jesus Sabbath miracles were from God, many today refuse to believe that Jesus teaches a doctrine of the Sabbath for the church. Or if they do, they have embraced views that Jesus never teaches, like Sunday. Such unbelievers will never step foot in the New Earth.
Bob, too bad you are on the wrong side of the Gospel Story. Too bad you won’t accept the Gospel “proof” offered, because that is all you will ever get. If the written words of Christ are not sufficient for you to believe, then so be it. You are self-condemned. Most choose the wrong path and fail to believe the Gospel.
John 12:36 “While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Here is how the debate over “proof” went:
1) Pharisees demand Proof from Christ before they would believe the Gospel. They were never satisfied with the evidence that Jesus presented.
Matt. 16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven.
Mark 8:11 The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him.
Mark 8:12 Sighing deeply in His spirit, He *said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, 3bno 2sign will be given to this generation.”
2) However, for those that were honest of heart, they had seen enough proof to believe. They accepted the evidence provided by Christ and rejoiced at the Gospel.
John 7:31 But many of the crowd believed in Him; and they were saying, “When the Christ comes, He will not perform more signs than those which this man has, will He?”
John 9:31 “We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.
John 9:32 “1Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.
John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”
3) In private, the Jewish leaders admitted that Jesus was showing great “proofs” and signs for all to see. Even though they demanded more evidence in public, they knew there was plenty of proof. They were great hypocrites.
John 11:47 Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many signs.
4) The religious leaders refused to admit that Jesus, a Sabbath breaker, who taught that the 4th Commandment was no longer binding, was from God. His signs and proofs must be from the devil, not God.
John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”
John 12:37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
5) Gospel preaching always causes division and doubt; only a minority believes. This is how it was in the 1st century and this is how it will be until the end of the world. Division over the teachings of Christ, especially about the Sabbath, is a hallmark of the Gospel Story.
John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, “This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.” But others were saying, “How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?” And there was a division among them.
All must base their hope of Eternal life on the teachings and sayings of Christ. This is all the “proof” anyone will ever have, and we must make the most of it, or perish. Misunderstand and reject the NC Sabbath of Christ, and only doom will result. This is what the Jews did, and also the Gentiles. This is what you are doing Bob.
The Gospel evidence in the NT is sufficient to establish the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath for the church. Jesus words, sayings, and teachings will judge each of us in the last days, including what he teaches about the NC Sabbath.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Bob, you are as free as the Jews to disregard and close your eyes to the teachings of Christ. But I can assure you that it will not end well.
John 8:12 Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”
The Jews choose to be blind, and so too, most today. Which is why Christ has condemned the entire Laodicean Church.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Bob, those today that reject the clear and plain teachings of Christ, as you are doing, are blind to the Gospel and to the NC Sabbath. Until you find a way to comprehend and embrace the teachings of Christ, you will remain blind, unsaved, and separated from God.
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
Bob, the blind said: Jesus said it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath. The Jews and Jesus still had to comply with the Sabbath law until it was fulfilled by Jesus in His flesh on the cross.
Tom replied: Wrong. It was sinful to work on the Sabbath in the OC. Unless one was a Levite. While Jesus, not a Levite, was born under the OC law, his mission was to launch the NC. Consequently, there came a time when he had to stop following the OC and chart a NC path for the church. When Jesus started his Gospel Ministry, he featured a NC doctrine of the Sabbath, which is based on a different view of the Law, Temple, and Priesthood. To deny this is to deny the Gospel Story.
Bob 2 quoted: Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Bob said: Are you calling these passages uninspired? False doctrine??
Tom replied: I am calling you “uninspired” and full of nonsense and false doctrine. I am also calling you out for being very incompetent and dishonest with the Bible. You repeatedly avoid Jesus many discussions about the Sabbath in the Gospels so that you can run to Paul. This is madness, proving you are not really a genuine follower of Christ whatsoever. You are a fraud, like most everyone in Laodicea.
Bob the blind snarled: You are not commissioned as Paul was by Jesus himself. Jesus also sent the Holy Spirit, do you denigrate His teaching, note: John 16: 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Tom replied: The primary source for the NC doctrine of the Sabbath is the four Gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were “commissioned” by Christ to writes down the Gospel Story, especially the teachings and sayings of Christ. The active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath is featured in all four Gospels by the apostles.
Anyone that wants to understand the Gospel, which includes the NC Sabbath of Christ, must go to Jesus, in the Gospels, and learn from him. Those who refuse to do this, like you Bob, are as doomed as were the Jews that also hated Jesus strange new views about the law and salvation.
Moreover, the HS does not invent new doctrine as you claim; much less refute what Christ teaches about the Gospel Sabbath. Rather, it points our minds to what Christ teaches. It directs us back to Christ in the Gospels.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Bob the blind, said: In Jesus own words he says there is more than just what He has said and the Holy Spirit will reveal Truth. Are you calling Jesus a Liar, Tom Norris??
Tom said: JESUS is truth. What he teaches in the Gospels is truth for the church, even what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. Those, like you Bob, that deny Jesus’ “own words” about the Sabbath, will not receive Eternal Life. They are not following the Good Shepherd or the Holy Spirit.
Bob the blind scoffed: You are puffed up and your words are null and void.
Tom replied: Don’t shoot the messenger. The words of Christ are not null or void. And neither is his active and reformed doctrine of the NC Sabbath. However, you are free to act like the unbelieving Jews and refute Christ and his Gospel Sabbath. But for what point? There is no Eternal Life for anyone that ignores and repudiates the teaching of Christ.
If you want to read a serious book about the Sabbath, here is one:
A Day of Gladness: The Sabbath Among Jews and Christians in Antiquity
A study of the wide spectrum of theological views on the Sabbath in the Jewish and Christian faiths of antiquity; In A Day of Gladness, Herold Weiss compares the ways in which Christians and Jews of antiquity viewed the Sabbath. Rather than attending to the minutiae of its observance among Jews or its connection with Sunday observance among Christians, he examines major extant texts for the fundamental religious concerns of their authors and communities, particularly how those concerns shaped their thoughts about the Sabbath.
Weiss contends that the wide spectrums of theological beliefs illustrate the internal diversities of these two faiths as well as their commonalities.
To explore Jewish perspectives, Weiss looks to the Rabbinic and Qumranic texts, Samaritan texts, and the writings of Philo and of Josephus.
To illumine early Christian attitudes, he offers analyses of the Synoptic Gospels, the Gospels of John and Thomas, and the letters to the Galatians, the Romans, the Hebrews, and the Colossians.
Weiss uses each text as a window upon the sociological constructs and theological perspectives figuring in early Jewish and Christian thought about worship and rest. He suggests that such perspectives reflect larger theological postures because, as an element of the creation story, the Sabbath became an important cosmological fixed point and a source of eschatological speculation.
With insights gained from his examination of the texts, Weiss identifies the concerns animating Sabbath disputes. He marks out in the beliefs of Jews and early Christians overarching similarities between the two faiths as well as variations within each.
http://www.amazon.com/Day-Gladness-Sabb … 1570034680
This much-needed work is focused on Jesus Sabbath teaching. The author correctly concludes that Jesus “does not argue for the total abrogation of the Sabbath law.” But he does “challenge” the 4th Commandment, all the while being careful not to “contest the validity of the Sabbath.” P 97.
This author is not SDA (however, he does live in Berrien Springs, Michigan) or a NCT supporter, and in fact, he disproves both of these views of the Sabbath. This excellent work supports and underscores the active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. It is a fantastic study that deals with the real issues, including the Sabbath debates.
Everyone needs to read this book and ground themselves on the facts about 1st century Sabbath keeping when there was no debate about Sunday to confuse the issues. This book should have been written many years ago.
Bob the blind said: I will take Jesus and the Holy Spirit over you any day.
Tom replied: This discussion is not a debate between Jesus teachings and what Tom Norris is teaching. There is no such choice as you pretend.
We are having a discussion about what Jesus, the head theologian of the church, teaches in the Gospels about the 7th day Sabbath. It is a debate about religious people thinking they can see true doctrine, when in fact; they are blind to Gospel truth.
To misunderstand what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath, is to misunderstand the Gospel. The entire Laodicean church has a false view of both the Gospel and the Sabbath, including the SDA’s and NCT. This must be corrected. The book above is a good start on the road to truth.
Bob the blind retorted: You have supplied nothing to support your working Sabbath you call Reformed Adventism.
Tom replied: For the record; Reformed Adventism encompasses far more than just the Sabbath doctrine. There is a 12-point list of major changes that covers everything from Ellen White to Eschatology.
See: Adventist Reform
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=234
If Jesus could not convince the Pharisees to embrace his NC view of the Sabbath, what chance does anyone have today? When religious people want to pretend they are blind, not even Christ can heal them against their will. Those that pretend not to understand the issues, soon lose their spiritual eyesight. Then they can never understand.
Luke 11:34 “The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”
John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Anyone that wants to follow Christ, must stop following others and admit their Gospel blindness, asking to be healed. Failure to understand this point is fatal because we are all born blind.
Matt. 15:14 “Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
Only Jesus can heal the theologically confused and blind, but most of those who think they understand the Bible, do not. Especially if they are paid church workers. Most are like the Pharisees that thought they were smarter than Christ, and thus they refused to comprehend Jesus’ new view about the Sabbath or the Priesthood. They are delusional and lost.
So Bob, as you read this next passage, picture yourself “sitting by the road,” with another blind man, waiting for Jesus to pass by. What will you do? Will you shout out for healing? Or will you act like the Pharisees and deny that you are blind?
Had these men denied they were blind, they would have remained blind, and Jesus would have moved on without helping them. The SDA Community needs to stop pretending they can “see” the Gospel, because they are not even close at this point, and neither is NCT. They are truly blind, even as they have fallen into the ditch for all to see. Here they will die, unless they repent and seek healing.
Bob, why not admit the obvious and admit you are wrong about doctrine, which is what the word “blind” means in this Gospel context? Then you can be healed, rejoicing in the clarity and joy of the genuine Gospel, which also includes the correct view of the 7th day Sabbath.
Matt. 20:29 As they were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed Him.
Matt. 20:30 And two blind men sitting by the road, hearing that Jesus was passing by, cried out, “Lord, have mercy on us, Son of David!”
Matt. 20:31 The crowd sternly told them to be quiet, but they cried out all the more, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!”
Matt. 20:32 And Jesus stopped and called them, and said, “What do you want Me to do for you?”
Matt. 20:33 They said to Him, “Lord, we want our eyes to be opened.”
Matt. 20:34 Moved with compassion, Jesus touched their eyes; and immediately they regained their sight and followed Him.
Those that deny Christ, and refute his teachings, refusing to be instructed by him, cannot be healed of their false views. They are blind to the Gospel by choice, unable to see truth because they refuse to see or hear truth.
Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
Matt. 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
Bob the blind said: What a joke you are, and embarrassing yourself to those that listen to you at AllExpert.com. You lie to those that believe you speak the truth.
Tom replied: NCT is a bad joke. It features many embarrassing errors about the doctrine of the Sabbath. It is obvious that you have not been able to defend this nonsense, much less discredit the genuine, NC Sabbath doctrine of Christ that is a much-needed part of Adventist Reform. Sad.
Conclusion
Today, the church is full of error and schism. False doctrine abounds, even as the world races forward to its apocalyptic conclusion. The time has come for the Advent Movement to wake up, repent, and move forward to the 4th Angels Message where all doctrine must comport to the genuine Gospel, including the correct doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
It is time.
John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
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Tom, because Jesus said this:
John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
Tom, because Christ said this, it does not make a working Sabbath. The meaning of this text shows the word "work" means one thing to us and another to Jesus and His Father. They have always been working on matters of Salvation, and as Lord of the Sabbath has the prerogative to do this. But no where does Jesus say a Sabbath is part of the New Covenant or His Kingdom. I've looked at your "stuff" and the Bible and no where is it taught by Christ. This is of your construct. You can mock me and not produce it OR produce it and show me to be false. So far you are losing the debate.
Jesus in two places shows how the Sabbath is fulfilled in him:
1. Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
AND
2. Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Your lecture on the blind could just as well be turned on your discernment in this issue. Produce the passage you say you have, but because Jesus calls Himself Lord of the Sabbath, does not in and of itself speak to "fulfillment", "continuation" , "practice in heaven" etc. Your lack of discernment is showing. Your professorial lecture about blindness is miss placed, try a mirror.
Last edited by bob_2 (06-30-14 3:31 am)
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Bob the blind, is still unable to see: Unable to make any credible points to support his false views, he lashes out in an anti-Semitic manner that makes little sense.
Bob the blind said: You sound like a Jew, Tom. At least you accept the Gospels, but to denigrate the rest of the New Testament except Revelation shows how low on the discernment meter you are.
Tom replied: How can anyone that accepts the teachings of Christ be seen as a Jew? Most all Jews rejected what Jesus taught, including and especially his strange new view of the 7th DAY Sabbath. You are the one who is acting like the unbelieving and “blind” Jews by rejecting Jesus’ active and reformed, NC Sabbath. The Jews hated Jesus NC Sabbath, and so too do you. So who is acting like the Jews here?
Bob is trying to pretend that Paul is superior to Christ when it comes to understanding the Sabbath. So he ignores the many passages where Jesus teaches his Gospel Sabbath, and runs to find another view he likes better from Paul. Thus he misunderstands both Christ and Paul.
Bob the blind continued to try and pretend that he can see. He said: Paul was commissioned by Christ and for 3 years; given direct instruction what his message was to be to the Gentiles when Paul went into the Arabian Desert for three years.
Tom replied: Before Paul became a Christian, Jesus spent 3 years training and “commissioning” many people (at least 70), to represent him, including the apostles, that wrote the four Gospels. What they wrote about Christ is Gospel truth for the church.
Paul supports the original Gospel Story of the apostles, and he never said otherwise. However, he is not the source to understand the Gospel Sabbath. Such a doctrine comes directly from Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath and the creator of the world and the very first Sabbath. Those that follow Jesus will understand and embrace what he teaches, not repudiate it.
Luke 10:1 Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.
Matt, Mark, Luke, and John represent Gospel truth. These books are not at war with Paul, as you pretend. They contain the genuine teachings of Christ for the church, including the doctrine of the NC Sabbath, which was a favorite teaching of Jesus, the self-proclaimed Lord of the NC Sabbath.
Bob the blind said: The Luke 24:44 quote is not Paul, neither the Matthew 11:29.
Tom replied: The source of the Gospel Sabbath is Jesus, not Paul. So you are correct to try and quote Christ, but wrong to quote the wrong material from Christ, which you have done on purpose.
Christ is the source for all Gospel doctrine, including and especially the NC Sabbath. Misunderstand Christ, and Paul will also be misunderstood. Mission accomplished for you.
Pay attention: Those that quote the wrong passages from Christ and deliberately overlook his many Sabbath “sayings” and teachings, pretending they don’t exist, are blind to the Gospel. They are rejecting Christ just like the Jews.
Bob, why can’t you “see” the Gospel Sabbath as taught by Jesus in the Gospels? Why couldn’t the Jews?
Answer: Because you, like the Jews, are blind by choice, and you refuse to admit it, much less ask to be healed. Pity.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
These two passages you quote do not support NCT as you claim, or this idea that Christ fulfilled the Sabbath so that he could abolish it and then change it into an EveryDay spiritual doctrine for the last church. Such teaching is absurd and trite blasphemy. It is not wise to follow the teachings of the blind.
Bob the blind charged; Tom, You have to accept the splitting of the OT into civil, ceremonial and moral to get your answer. Even the Jews see the OT as a whole, not segmented as you do.
Tom replied: Your double-talk is tiresome and pointless. Jesus teaches what he teaches in the Gospels for all to “see.” What a pity that so few will come to understand the genuine Gospel, which includes what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. While the Gospel is the greatest of all doctrines, the point of the church and the only hope for mankind, - only a few will comprehend it. Most remain blind.
Matt. 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt. 7:14 “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Bob the blind quoted: John 16:12 in a futile and tiresome attempt to defend his false views. “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Bob then said: These are Jesus words. Do you call Him a liar about the Holy Spirit and Paul? This is again, dangerous territory you have wandered into.
Tom replied: You are the liar, not Jesus or the Gospel writers. It is Gnosticism to claim that new doctrines were to be taught to mankind after the apostles. Don’t you understand the history of the early church? This is very dangerous territory that few survive. Only the written words of Christ and his apostles can define Gospel doctrine.
http://www.theopedia.com/Gnosticism
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic1.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic2.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic3.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic4.htm
The Cannon has long been closed, which is why it is impossible for new doctrines, like the IJ, to be developed and taught as truth. The SDA’s have lost their minds and ruined their legitimate eschatological mission with such impossible error. Jesus did not teach the IJ, and thus it can never, ever, become true doctrine. The same can be said about NCT. Their view of the Sabbath is not based on the Gospels, and this fact alone makes it heretical and false.
Tom Norris » IJ Discussion: Tom Norris & Herb Kersten
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=1173
In fact, after the original Gospels were written, many false Gospels were also written, all claiming to contain new and secret Gospel knowledge that went beyond the famous originals. These different and unauthorized views were correctly repudiated by the church, which countered by gathering all the original Gospels and apostolic letters into what we call the New Testament. This was done to stop any false speculation about the Gospel. All true Gospel doctrine must be based on the NT, which is complete. Nothing else.
Col. 1:25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
It is far too late in the day to repeat such Gnostic errors. There are no secret or special Gospel doctrines for mankind beyond what has already been written in the 1st century. Not about the Sabbath or the IJ, which is a farce. The Gospel was “fully” preached long ago, and it is fatal to think any new Gospel doctrines exist outside the written Word.
Those, like the SDA’s or NCT crowd, that quote Jesus out of context, twisting his words to support their many false views, are only fooling themselves, not heaven. Those that claim the NT does not contain a fully articulated Gospel, which includes a clear doctrine of the Sabbath, claiming that additional sources are needed to understand Gospel truth, have fallen from grace. They mishandle and misunderstand the word at their own peril. They are blind to the real Gospel, just like the Jews or the Papacy.
Bible Doctrine Clear
One of the major debates of the Reformation was about the clarity or lack thereof, of the Bible. The RCC taught that the scriptures were very difficult to comprehend, which is why the church was necessary to explain doctrine. Luther disagreed. He correctly taught that all doctrine necessary for salvation is clear and understandable.
While Luther chastised Erasmus for impiety, equivocation and parroting the skepticism of the sophists, the greater threat from Erasmus was his assertion that Scripture's obscurity bolstered the authority of the papacy. Luther believed that in the papal kingdom "nothing is more commonly stated or more generally accepted than the idea that the Scriptures are obscure and ambiguous, so that the spirit to interpret them must be sought from the Apostolic See of Rome." He suggested that the entire design of Erasmus' diatribe was bent on demonstrating that the Scriptures were not "crystal clear" in order to frighten people away from reading Scripture and into reliance upon Rome.
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/artic … cuity.html
The Gospel is what Christ teaches it is in the Gospels, and so too the Gospel Sabbath. Those that want Eternal Life, must understand and embrace what Jesus, the Good Shepherd, teaches in the Gospels.
2Cor. 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!
One way to test if we are following the genuine Christ of the Gospels, is to see what doctrine of the Sabbath we hold. Does it match with the scores and scores of Gospel verses where Jesus promotes and defends his NC view of the 7th day Sabbath? If not, then you can be sure you are following a false Christ and a worthless Gospel.
John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”
Jesus teaches, in the true Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church, that the entire Laodicean Church, meaning all denominations, are wrong about the Gospel. They are blind to the genuine Christ, even oblivious to the correct doctrine of the Sabbath.
Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
Rev. 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
Today, legions in the church, starting with the leaders, are blind, naked, and unsaved; their only hope is to repent and embrace the genuine Christ, with his active and reformed, Gospel Sabbath. To do otherwise is spiritual suicide.
Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
It is time for those in the Adventist Community to wake up and open their eyes. It is time for this group to repent of their many false doctrines and see the Gospel clearly and correctly.
Come on Bob; get on the right side of the Gospel. NCT is as stupid and false as the Old Covenant SDA Sabbath or the IJ. They are both false and impossible doctrines.
The time has come for the Advent Movement to repent and migrate forward to the 4th Angels Message so that they can proclaim the correct Gospel with power and wisdom. It is time for New Covenant Adventism.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris, for Adventist Reform
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Tom, an army of one. You still haven't shown where Christ commanded your Reformed NC Sabbath. He was Lord of the Sabbath, which means He had authority over it and was more important than the Sabbath and the Temple:
Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
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John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”
Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”
John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.
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Name a few others in your fold, Tom, and while you are at it supply the teaching of a working Sabbath by Jesus, mandated for His Kingdom/New Covenant.
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Bob, you must listen to Jesus and learn from him. This is your only hope.
Matt. 13:9 “He who has ears, let him hear.”
Matt. 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
Matt. 13:11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
Matt. 13:12 “For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
Matt. 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Matt. 13:14 “In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
Matt. 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
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Tom and I have gone back and forth about his "doctrine" or "dogma" about a Reformed Sabbath. This is held by only Tom Norris himself. If their are others he has not supplied their names. The Reform is that the Sabbath allows work, sort of an oxymoron. I would like to switch to the next chapter of the book that gets into why so many denominations exist.
Chapter 15 Our Creeds and How They Affect Our Understanding
(Jump to next post as this is a duplicate of the opening of the next post)
The author of this chapter Tom Wells suggests:
1. Our creeds and confessions [and fundamental beliefs]are one immense barrier to unity [of all Christendom, SDAs are no exception].
2. There is no easy or obvious way to cross this divide.
Here is a definition of a creed that Tom Wells offers:
We are united, not merely by a vague respect for the Scriptures, but by a deep-rooted commitment to a common understanding of its message. Our creeds [fundamental beliefs] are a declaration of the doctrines which we hold in common.
In writing this book we have been very conscious of this fact (beliefs held tenaciously whether written or not). We have been pleading with you to address Scripture directly. Most Christians, of course, agree that we must all do this. Perhaps, however, we have commitment to creeds and confessions [and fundamental beliefs] that deflect to some degree the thrust of Scripture. We do not want that to be true, but we must reckon with the possibility.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-11-14 5:03 pm)
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Tom and I have gone back and forth about his "doctrine" or "dogma" about a Reformed Sabbath. This is held by only Tom Norris himself. If there are others he has not supplied their names. The Reform is that the Sabbath allows work, sort of an oxymoron. I would like to switch to the next chapter of the book that gets into why so many denominations exist.
Chapter 15 Our Creeds and How They Affect Our Understanding
The author of this chapter Tom Wells suggests:
1. Our creeds and confessions [and fundamental beliefs]are one immense barrier to unity [of all Christendom, SDAs are no exception].
2. There is no easy or obvious way to cross this divide.
Here is a definition of a creed that Tom Wells offers:
We are united, not merely by a vague respect for the Scriptures, but by a deep-rooted commitment to a common understanding of its message. Our creeds [fundamental beliefs] are a declaration of the doctrines which we hold in common.
In writing this book we have been very conscious of this fact (beliefs held tenaciously whether written or not). We have been pleading with you to address Scripture directly. Most Christians, of course, agree that we must all do this. Perhaps, however, we have commitment to creeds and confessions [and fundamental beliefs] that deflect to some degree the thrust of Scripture. We do not want that to be true, but we must reckon with the possibility.
An example of the Seventh day Adventists' Fundamental beliefs and how it "assumes" things that are not biblical and gets in the way of the path to truth by it's statement of belief. Though not called a creed or catechism it serve the same sort of "road block" of a creed:
20. Sabbath:
The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)
What's wrong with this "creed", you ask, well:
1. Stated without Biblical proof that God "instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation" -- No where from Adam to the manna story during the Exodus is the Sabbath story told, and no one held to its strict standard. Noah's Covenant does not state it. Jesus never declares it as the "greatest commandment" when asked (Matthew 22:36-40) or state it to the Gentile woman at the well (John 4:21-26) but mentions a place will be common some day for the Jew and the Gentile.
Deut 5:15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
Here God only takes the reader to the captivity in Egypt, which narrows who the 10 Commandments were written for. It is true that Exodus 20 goes back to creation of man, but in Ex 2: 1-3 "Sabbath" is not used, but a word "rest" that also can mean "ceased". Note also the seventh day has no morning or evening. Did God really need physical rest? Read John 5:17:
... “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
2. This "fundamental" goes on and does not recognize the "obsolete" covenant with Israel (Exodus 34:28; Hebrews 8:13)
My point is that this "fundamental" assumes a lot. It comes out of "Covenant Theology" thinking. The New Covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25) is overlooked, and Christ's Law in 1 Corinthians 9:21. This one fundamental as written is not even Biblical and does not encourage unity of all Christians but by its man made interpretation, is an example of how creeds, confessions and lists of intractable fundamental beliefs presents false doctrine and disunity of Christian believers, creating so many denominations.
Last edited by bob_2 (07-12-14 1:07 am)
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Bob the blind said: Tom and I have gone back and forth about his "doctrine" or "dogma" about a Reformed Sabbath.
Tom replied; Bob, your position, and that of NCT, has been demolished for all to see. Only a blind, delusional, person could think otherwise. Not only have you failed to score any points for the Every Day, No Day, Sabbath of NCT, you have also failed to refute the active and reformed Gospel Sabbath of Christ, which is only on the 7th day.
So there is no back and forth as you claim, as if you are making any credible points. Your position and been annihilated for all to see, ground into dust. NCT is a bad joke, just like the IJ. It is impossible garbage that has zero support from the NT.
Bob the blind said: This (reformed and active view of the 7th day Sabbath) is held by only Tom Norris himself. If there are others he has not supplied their names.
Tom replied; Jesus is the source for the NC Sabbath, not Tom Norris. Jesus is the one that invented this doctrine for the church. All the apostles, including Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, embrace and support the NC Sabbath teaching of Christ, which doctrine has been written down in all four Gospel accounts. None of them support NCT, or what the SDA’s or Sunday keepers teach.
Bob the blind said: The Reform is that the Sabbath allows work, sort of an oxymoron.
Tom said: Just as the Gospel is an oxymoron, so too the NC Sabbath. A working Sabbath made zero sense to a legalistic Jew, nor did salvation as a free gift or the Priesthood of all Believers. The Jews refused to accept these Gospel points, which is why they killed Christ.
To understand the correct doctrine of the NC Sabbath is to understand the Gospel. Few today comprehend either, which is why Jesus calls the last church blind, unable to see the Gospel correctly. Not one church today has a correct, Gospel view of the Sabbath. None!
One reason so many misunderstand the Gospel is because of their false view of the Sabbath. When corrected, the Gospel becomes clear and so too many other doctrines. Which is why it is imperative for the church to understand the Sabbath doctrine as taught by Christ.
Bob the blind said: I would like to switch to the next chapter of the book that gets into why so many denominations exist.
Tom said: This is your thread; do what you want. But understand you have scored no points. NCT is utter nonsense and more you try to legitimatize this false Every Day Sabbath doctrine, the worse it appears.
Bob posted: Chapter 15 Our Creeds and How They Affect Our Understanding. The author of this chapter Tom Wells suggests:
1. Our creeds and confessions [and fundamental beliefs]are one immense barrier to unity [of all Christendom, SDAs are no exception].
2. There is no easy or obvious way to cross this divide.
Tom replied: While the author is correct to state that creeds are problematic when it comes to finding new truth, he is wrong to think there is no easy way out of the maze of traditions.
Yes, there is a very easy way out of this mess; pay attention to the teachings of Christ as first priority. This is where all Christian doctrine must start, especially when it comes to the Sabbath.
So the question must be asked; what does Jesus teach about this doctrine? Regardless of tradition, whatever Jesus teaches is what the church must follow. Jesus does not, not, not, teach NCT or anything close to it. Let all rejoice that the genuine doctrine of the Sabbath has emerged for all to see.
Bob the blind posted: Here is a definition of a creed that Tom Wells offers:
We are united, not merely by a vague respect for the Scriptures, but by a deep-rooted commitment to a common understanding of its message. Our creeds [fundamental beliefs] are a declaration of the doctrines, which we hold in common.
In writing this book we have been very conscious of this fact (beliefs held tenaciously whether written or not). We have been pleading with you to address Scripture directly. Most Christians, of course, agree that we must all do this. Perhaps, however, we have commitment to creeds and confessions [and fundamental beliefs] that deflect to some degree the thrust of Scripture. We do not want that to be true, but we must reckon with the possibility.
Tom replied: While the authors talk a good game about the scriptures, they are hypocrites that ignore scores of passages where Jesus teaches and defends his NC view of the Sabbath. Why don’t they practice what they preach and stop pretending that Paul, with his few cryptic remarks about the Sabbath, is the Lord and explainer of the NC Sabbath? Why don’t they “address” the Gospels “directly” and figure out what Christ really teaches about the Sabbath?
Bob said: An example of the Seventh day Adventists' Fundamental beliefs and how it "assumes" things that are not biblical and gets in the way of the path to truth by it's statement of belief. Though not called a creed or catechism it serves the same sort of "road block" of a creed:
Tom said: Yes, the SDA “creed” is full of error, myth, and false doctrine. I have never said otherwise.
Bob posted; 20. Sabbath: The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation.
Tom said: This point is correct. This is what Judaism teaches and so too the Christian Faith. So far so good.
Bob posted: The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
Tom replied: This is false. Jesus changed the 4th Commandment, even as the NC replaced the OC. This is why the Jews became so angry with Christ. Misunderstand this part of the Gospel Story and little will make Gospel sense. The SDA’s are very foolish to pretend that Jesus did not change the law. He did.
Bob posted: The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)
Tom replied: False. The OC Sabbath is not to be embraced by the NC church. The SDA’s have lost their minds for being such great legalists. The OC Sabbath of Moses is not the same as the NC Sabbath of Christ. They are different, even though they are both on the 7th day. Those that understand Jesus’ Gospel, cannot embrace the OC Sabbath. To do so is to misunderstand the law and the Gospel.
The SDA’s do not understand either the NC Sabbath or the Gospel, which is why they are self-destructing for all to see. They are very much like the 1st century Jews that refused the Gospel. However, NCT is no better. It is not a credible Sabbath solution or interpretation.
Bob said: What's wrong with this "creed", you ask, well:
1. Stated without Biblical proof that God "instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation" -- No where from Adam to the manna story during the Exodus is the Sabbath story told, and no one held to its strict standard. Noah's Covenant does not state it. Jesus never declares it as the "greatest commandment" when asked (Matthew 22:36-40) or state it to the Gentile woman at the well (John 4:21-26) but mentions a place will be common some day for the Jew and the Gentile.
Tom replied: Your spin on things is confused and self-serving. Both Judaism and the NT clearly teach that the Sabbath is a doctrine that started at the creation of the world. It is foolish to try and deny what is so clear and fundamental to the Gospel Story. What is the matter with you? The first humans were not Jewish; they had a 7th day Sabbath. They represented mankind, not Jews, thus all mankind had a Sabbath doctrine long before there were any Jews or OC laws. But the Sabbath before Judaism is not like the OC Sabbath of Moses. It was not legalistic, but like the NC Sabbath of Christ.
Moreover, there is little point in talking about how you view the ancient Sabbath. Not only are you not an OT scholar or historian, you misuse the scriptures at every opportunity. Stop talking about Noah or the Exodus; it is Christ who established a NC doctrine of the Sabbath in all four Gospels for the church. Only a blind person could miss all this Sabbath teaching from the head theologian of the church.
Bob the blind quoted: Deut 5:15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. Here God only takes the reader to the captivity in Egypt, which narrows who the 10 Commandments were written for. It is true that Exodus 20 goes back to creation of man, but in Ex 2: 1-3 "Sabbath" is not used, but a word "rest" that also can mean "ceased".
Tom said: Again, if you want to understand the NC doctrine of the Sabbath, you must leave the OT behind and focus on what Christ teaches. Thus, it is the law of Christ, NOT the law of Moses that must be followed by Christians. Get you head out of the OT and into the Gospels where the Lord of the Sabbath will teach you the correct doctrine.
Bob the blind said: Note also the seventh day has no morning or evening. Did God really need physical rest? Read John 5:17:
... “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
Tom replied: You are thinking like a silly Gentile, not a Jew. The Christian Faith is based on Judaism. Misunderstand Judaism, and there is little hope that the Christian Faith will make sense. Mission accomplished. More specifically, all Christian doctrine must rest on the teachings of Christ. What Jesus teaches about the Creation Story, as well as the Sabbath, is doctrine for the church. Did Christ teach that the 7th day was not real? No. Does Christ teach NCT? No.
Bob said: 2. This SDA "fundamental" goes on and does not recognize the "obsolete" covenant with Israel (Exodus 34:28; Hebrews 8:13)
Tom said: Correct. The SDA’s are Old Covenant Christians. They are following the OC, not the NC. This is why they tithe and think it sinful to work on the 7th day. But Jesus neither tithed, nor did he obey the 4th Commandment and refrain from working on the Sabbath. So the SDA’s are following a false Christ of their own making.
Bob said: My point is that this "fundamental" assumes a lot. It comes out of "Covenant Theology" thinking. The New Covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25) is overlooked, and Christ's Law in 1 Corinthians 5:21.
Tom replied; Correct. The SDA’s do not understand the law or the Gospel correctly. They represent the Judizers in the early church. Which is why they hate the book of Galatians. It exposes them for what they are: legalists that hate the Gospel. This is why the leaders hid the 1888 debate, which was all about the Two Covenants and the law in Galatians. The SDA’s are very much like the 1st century Jews.
The law of Christ means what Jesus teaches. He teaches a lot about the 7yh day Sabbath. All that follow Christ, must do so. Not refute what he teaches.
Bob said: This one fundamental as written is not even Biblical and does not encourage unity of all Christians but by its man made interpretation, presents false doctrine and disunity of Christian believers, creating so many denominations.
Tom replied: I agree. The SDA view of the Sabbath is awful and very wrong. They are so blind that they have embraced the OC Sabbath doctrine of Jesus’ enemies. Just think about that for a moment. While the SDA’s have the correct day, the 7th, they do not have the correct doctrine. For which they must repent and reform.
NCT is no solution for the SDA error of the Sabbath, or for universal Sabbath errors of the Laodicean church. While they are correct to teach that every church has embraced a false and impossible view of the Sabbath, their proposed solution is well off the mark, as this discussion proves. NCT promotes a false and impossible view of the Sabbath. But good for them to try. Their error paves the way for the genuine doctrine of the 7th day, which is the active and reformed, NC Sabbath of Christ.
Let all repent and embrace the one and only Gospel Sabbath of Christ. This correct doctrine has been sitting in the Gospels from the beginning. There is no excuse for so many religious people to be so very wrong, for so very long. (They must be blind.) It underscores the corruption of organized religion, as well as the difficulty in every age of finding genuine Gospel Truth.
The Advent Movement, a Protestant paradigm, was started with pure and noble intent; it featured the honest search for truth about how the world will end. Such eschatological focus has never been more timely or necessary. However, this group has gone corrupt, just like all other denominations. Thus the modern SDA’s no longer care for, or search for truth, even as they have become too proud to confess and repent for their many errors and false doctrines. They have become so spiritually blind that they can’t understand the Gospel, or what Christ teaches about the 7th day Sabbath, their greatest doctrine. So they stubbornly sit in darkness and self-destruct for all to see.
The SDA’s have been judged “blind” and “naked” in the genuine Pre-Advent Judgment of the last church. (Rev 3: 14) Unless they repent, and remove all false doctrine, they are doomed, and so too any that support their anti-Gospel confusion and double-talk.
It is time for the Advent Movement to repent for their Old Covenant doctrines, creed, and policies.
It is time for all Adventists to move fully and deliberately into the light of the New Covenant, to better under the Gospel, which includes the doctrine of the Sabbath and how the world will really end.
The Advent Movement must go forward, and when it does, it will do so with the active and reformed doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.
Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism
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Tom Norris, I may have asked this before but I'll ask it again. When did the New Covenant begin?
Why is that important? Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and obeyed the law he was born under as stated here:
Gal 4:4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
If you don't believe Jesus had to obey the Mosaic Law, that he was born under, we can stop conversing about the topic. We will never have the meeting of the minds. Jesus said in
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
That happened at His death. From the Resurrection to His Ascension not one word is mentioned about the Sabbath that you put such import on. The thing you don't understand is the Gospels were pre New Covenant. Read His instructions at the Last Supper:
1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; (Also Mark 14:24) do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
His Kingdom and New Covenant could not have begun before His sacrifice was completed and there was blood for the Gospel truth to forgive. Jesus never taught a Reformed Sabbath, not indicated it would be part of His Kingdom or New Covenant. I have asked you many times, yet you mock and sneer. You are the one that can not show where the New Covenant began, that Jesus instructed "YOUR" Reformed Sabbath. You mock me with "Bob the blind" but you are a false Prophet to teach what you do. You are an army of one that falsely teaches that the New Covenant began before the blood of forgiveness was available by Him on the cross.
If we can not agree on this part of the Gospel, we are wasting our words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by bob_2 (07-13-14 2:34 am)
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