Book Review of New Covenant Theology by Tom Wells and Fred Zaspel

bob_2 · 02-16-14 4:46 am

Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Tom, reading that text what does it mean to you,

"For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him [Jesus]..., by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross."

When someone makes peace, does it not involve rest, the rest the Sabbath was to give to an overworked Jewish nation. When Jesus can give that kind of peace, rest and reconciliation because God gave Him "all His fullness [to] dwell in him," does it not eliminate the need to wait for a day for the peace and rest. It's Ok to rest on the shadow day, but not to "overshadow" the very Savior it pointed to as the peace giver.

bob_2 · 02-16-14 5:22 am

Tom, let us read Hebrew 4, "for all it's worth" as Hank Hanegraaff says when some leave out meaning that with proper study, light is shone on a text which was previously dull to the understanding:

Hebrews 4
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
4 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”[d]
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,[e] just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Jesus the Great High Priest
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[f] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

The writer must be writing about something other than the Sabbath-Rest of the Decalogue. If one did not "keep" the Sabbath, he risked death. This chapter must be referring to something else. Note: "since the promise of entering his rest still stands", really?? Did not the Jews in the desert keep the Old Covenant Sabbath correctly? Had they not they would have been killed. So Hebrews 4 must be talking of something different. The Christian's true rest that he seeks is rest from worrying and striving to be accepted by God/Jesus and have their sins forgiven.

tom_norris · 02-17-14 2:07 pm

Bob, I see you are still fighting against the Gospel teachings of Christ. Why? For what point?

Bob said; Chapter XXI, Article VII is the right section.

VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

Bob 2 then said: R.C. Sproul believes the Decalogue has continuity through both Covenants, against what the Bible teaches.

Tom said: Bob, who are you to say what the Bible teaches? As if you were a trained theologian like those you attack. You are not. Nor are you a historian. So stop pretending you are an expert on the Bible or the Two Covenants, when you are not even close. The very fact you were raised a cultic SDA proves you have been very confused and wrong most of your life. And you are still wrong and confused today. I am trying to help you, but you don’t seem to want any help.

Pay attention: It was Marcion, the leader of a very serious and large Christian movement that wanted the church to have no connection with the OC. Marcion did not believe in the Jewish God or the Creation story in the Torah. While he embraced Christ, and liked the apostle Paul, he had no use for most of the Gospels or anything associated Judaism, including the 7th day Sabbath. The church correctly branded him a heretic, and so too are those today that follow his views on “discontinuity.”

Bob, stop embracing the theology of heretics. It is a useless and unproductive mission. It will not lead to the genuine Gospel, and neither will the myths and double-talk of NCT.

As for the theology of the Sabbath: Most, if not all theologians, view the weekly Lord’s day (Sunday or the 7th day) as the fulfillment of the Moral law as it relates to the 4th Commandment. Both Catholics and Protestants do this because Jesus teaches, and observed, a weekly worship day in the Gospels. Thus the church has always embraced and practiced a weekly Sabbath. This was not an error, as NCT claims.

While the Sunday Lord’s day is error, there is no question that the church has correctly embraced the weekly worship example of Jesus. The church has never taught or practiced an abolished Law, with no weekly meeting. They have always embraced a weekly worship day.

The one-day in seven principle, which originates in the Torah, is viewed by Christian theologians as also being valid in the NC. This what the Westminster Confession is saying. Even though they are wrong to think Jesus changed the Sabbath to Sunday, they are correct that there is a weekly day for the church to meet and worship. NCT is dead wrong to take an opposing view, even though they are correct to teach that every Sabbath position being taught in the church today is wrong.

The Moral law does exist in the NC, it has not been sent into outer space. If it did not exist, how could anyone be guilty of sin in the NC? How could there even be a judgment? This has always been the position of the church, both RC and P.

However, Jesus’ Gospel teaching trumps the law, and thus what he teaches about the 4th Commandment, is what must be followed. Not what Moses teaches, or what anyone teaches today.

The Moral law was not extinguished at the cross, much less removed from religious or world history. Nor did Jesus give anyone permission to break the Moral law, except for the 4th Commandment, and even then, he still upheld the original creation doctrine in the Torah. He never denied the Creation Event, even as he was the one, along with his Father, that made the first Sabbath Day.

The Sabbath doctrine is about creation and the creator. And so it will ever be. It is not a doctrine that can be on any other day but the 7th, nor can it be fulfilled, as if it were prophecy, - because it is not prophecy; it is part of the foundation of the world, part of the creation process, part of the very first week of the world. It is a memorial doctrine that points to a singular past event that will never be repeated, the creation of the world.

In fact, the first full day for the human race was the 7th day Sabbath. This was not the OC Sabbath of forced rest under the penalty of death, as the confused SDA’s teach. No. No. This is a free and easy Sabbath where there was no guilt or sin for any activity.

With such a history of the Sabbath, how could Jesus, the self-proclaimed Lord of the 7th day Sabbath, change it to Sunday or into an Every Day doctrine of rest? Jesus did not remove the 7th day Sabbath, but reformed it for the church, and for all mankind through the Gospel. Just because Christians are not under the Moral law for salvation, it does not follow that the Moral law has been removed or abolished. It is still there to produce guidance, guilt, and condemnation, and eventually Justice at the Judgment Day.

So there is some continuity of the Moral Law, - not as much as some might want, like the SDA’s. But the OC Moral Law, (as well as the Creation Story), does exist in the age of the NC, subordinated to Faith in Christ.

In fact, there is also some continuity with the ceremonial law. This can be seen in the Jewish worship services as well as the reformed and active 7th day Sabbath. Also, the Eucharist, which came from the Passover and Baptism, which is derived from the Jewish Mikva. Jesus takes OC doctrines and transforms them into NC doctrines, thus showing continuity. The NC contains many things from the OC, including God and the creation story, as well as the reformed and active Sabbath, which is still a tribute and monument to the Genesis account as well as to the creator team of Father and Son.

Bob 2 said: He (Sproul) strains to keep it, the 4th Commandment Sabbath, by declaring Sunday the worship day for Christian's in memorial of Jesus' Resurrection the central doctrine of the Christian faith, BTW without any Biblical grounds.

Tom said: Sunday Sabbath is false doctrine. Period. You know this from your long association with the SDA’s. They are correct on this point.

While there is no basis for Sunday, theologians embrace it because Jesus clearly teaches a weekly Sabbath worship, and so too did the Moral Law before him and the long history of the Jews. So there are biblical grounds for a weekly worship day in the church - but Sunday is the wrong day, as you well know. Only the 7th day can be the right day. Not Sunday, Any day, or Every Day. Only the active and reformed 7th day Lord’s Day, is the true NC Sabbath for the church. There is no other theological possibility.

Bob 2 said: John Reisinger never says that any day is holy or sinful to keep. Who is in more error?

Tom said: First, Gospel doctrine must be established from the words of Jesus, not John Reisinger. Jesus wins the debate every time, not Reisinger. Sorry.

Second, Jesus never says that anyone should keep the 7th day holy, much less by not working. This is what his ENEMIES said. Which means: The SDA’s have been following the enemies of Christ for many years. What great fools they are! Moses promoted the non-working, holy, OC, 7th day, but not Jesus. NCT is correct on this point. Which is why they do not promote a holy Sabbath day in the NC. Nor should anyone, which is why the SDA’s must repent and update their doctrine of the Sabbath.

Third: Jesus does not teach that “no day is sinful,” as if following false doctrine is not a sin. Jesus teaches that those who reject his active, 7th day Gospel are not only blind, but they will be lost.

So it is wrong to embrace a false Christ or a false doctrine about the Sabbath. Reisinger is wrong on this point.

Bob 2 said: Reisinger just points out that the O/C does not have continuity into the N/C. The curtain in the Most Holy Place was torn from top to bottom where the Jewish glory was to abide with a copy of the 10 Commandments.

Tom said: The NCT crowd is wrong to embrace Marcion’s errors. The OT is the context for the NT. Thus there are many things that continue over into the NC, including the Sabbath and the Moral Law. Christ spoke about all 10 C’s, including the Sabbath, which he changed. The creation story as well as the creator and his 7th day Sabbath are also part of the NC. There is no sense trying to pretend otherwise. It was Marcion that took your view, which is wrong.

Bob 2 said: Tom, your argument is unique and no other has ever mentioned it to me.

Tom replied: Of course it is. Since when do Christians pay serious attention to what Christ actually teaches in the Gospels? If they were even halfway trying today, they would not think Sunday was the practice or doctrine of Christ, or that there is such a doctrine as tithe, the IJ, or a Secret Rapture, etc. False doctrine is epidemic in the last church.

So yes, it is very “unique” to pay close attention to Christ about the Sabbath, or anything else. Thus Adventist Reform is positioned on the proper fundamentals of the Protestant Faith. All should pay close attention to the words of Christ.

We all stand on the shoulders of those that have gone before. That is how progress and maturity takes place. Thus, new information and different perspectives often result in the solution to past conundrums.

Luke 8:14 “The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

Heb. 6:1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Eph. 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

Eph. 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

Eph. 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Eph. 4:14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

Eph. 4:15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

So it is here. The long quest for Sabbath Reform has been resolved. At least in a theological manner. Now this correct, mature, and important Gospel doctrine must be understood and applied by those not too proud or indifferent to repent and get serious about the teachings of Christ. While the NCS (New Covenant Sabbath) may seem new or unique, and it is to all Laodiceans, the ironic fact is that it dates from the 1st century Gospels. So it is really being rediscovered, and so too is the full and complete Gospel, of which the NC Sabbath is a living parable.

The SDA’s thought they had found the correct Sabbath, but they were only half right, which is still fatally wrong. There is more to the NC doctrine of the Sabbath then just what Day. That is a very immature point.

I suggest that all repudiate their present errors and immature views about the Sabbath, whether they embrace the Sunday, Every Day, or the SDA error of OC, 7th day Sabbath keeping. There is only one Christ, and one Good Shepherd; he is the one with the active and reformed 7th day Lord’s Day. All others are scheming imposters and deceitful tricksters. Only those that are blind, or that close their eyes on purpose, can misunderstand what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath. Those that want to see Gospel truth, - will go to the Gospels and learn from Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath and the Chosen One of God.

Deut. 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

John 10:20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?”

Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

Bob 2 said: You believe that Jesus when He said in John 5:

John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Bob 2 said: You believe that he was declaring the New Covenant needed a Sabbath, your first mistake, and that it should be worked on, your second mistake.

Tom said: First, Jesus made no mistake when he declared that his NC Sabbath was for all mankind. You have made a mistake to think Jesus is wrong and that he meant to say Jews instead of mankind.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Those who refute what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, will not receive Eternal Life. Those are the Gospel rules. Sorry.

Second: It was no error for Jesus to teach an active, working Sabbath, where it was no longer sinful to do any kind of activity for either man or beast on the 7th day. Jesus is not wrong, you are. This is your problem: you have attacked Jesus views and his words. You have repudiated the facts of the Gospel Story. You have closed your eyes to what Jesus teaches, disbelieving and repudiating him. So be it. The Jews did the same thing. Many Gentiles will also be lost because they too refused to pay attention to the Sabbath words of Christ.

Bob 2 said: Also you claim Christ was killed over the Sabbath issue. Read the last phrase, "but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." This was the issue and it remained the issue even when Paul shook his clothes and went to preach to the gentiles, it wasn't about the Sabbath, but being abused because of this message.

Tom said: I am not making any claims. Rather, I am only pointing out the facts of the Gospel Story as they relate to the NC Sabbath of Christ. Jesus’ Gospel message included his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. This cannot be denied. Moreover, Jesus also claims that he learned his NC Sabbath from God his father, thus making God a Sabbath breaker like himself.

So the context of Jesus claiming to be the Son of God is directly associated with his NC Sabbath, which the Jews refused to embrace. You would know this if you took the time to read the many long Sabbath debates in the Gospels, especially those in John. But you refuse to acknowledge Jesus words because they don’t fit with your pre-conceived errors. So you ignore them, trying to find other passages to support your false views.

Note that Christ not only says that his Father is working on the Sabbath, but that Jesus, his Son, can only teach whatever doctrine has been approved by God his Father. This is a direct reference to his NC Sabbath doctrine. I repeat: Jesus teaches that God, his Father, has approved his active and reformed NC Sabbath. Thus the Jews cried blasphemy.

John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

In another Sabbath debate, Jesus once again claims that God is his Father, even claiming that God has “commanded” him to go to the cross and die for mankind.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

John 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

John 10:16 “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

John 10:17 “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

John 10:18 “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

The charge of blasphemy was not independent of the Sabbath debate, as you pretend. No. It was directly associated with Jesus NC Sabbath teaching, which the Jews hated. This is not an opinion but a clear fact of the record. Jesus invoked God not only as his Father, but also as someone who works on the 7th day and who gave Jesus the very words to teach about the Sabbath. To deny this is to deny the Gospel Story.

I repeat: Jesus Gospel teaching came straight from God, and this includes what he teaches about the 7th day. That is why it is so important to understand and follow Christ. Those who refuse to follow what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, are denying God as well as Christ his Son. They will not be granted Eternal life.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

John 12:49 “For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Bob, do you understand what Jesus is saying here? His Sabbath doctrine, even the very words he spoke, came from “the Father himself.” All will be judged by their reaction to the Gospel teachings of Christ, of which his active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath is a large part.

Bob 2 said: They rejected Jesus as the Messiah. See Acts 18:

Tom replied: The Gospel Story is deep and complex. It is not for the trite or the lazy, much less for those who can’t be honest with the words of Christ. Your refusal to repent and honestly deal with the NT is your choice. Only a minority will understand the Gospel and receive Eternal Life, so you are not alone. Salvation will not be given to anyone that turns his or her back on the teachings of Christ.

While the Jews did indeed reject Jesus’ Gospel, which includes what he taught about his active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. To reject the NC Sabbath was to also reject the Gospel. The NC Sabbath is part of the NC Gospel. They cannot be separated.

Bob 2 quoted: Acts 18:1 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. 5 When Silas and Timothy came from Macedonia, Paul devoted himself exclusively to preaching, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah. 6 But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”

Bob 2 then said: He never argued when to meet, that was never an issue, but Jesus being the Messiah was the Gospel that the Jews rejected, except for a remnant (see Romans 11).

Tom said: There was never any debate in the Gospels about which day was the Sabbath. Only the 7th day could be credible for any Jew, including Christ, who was also a Jew. THIS is why there was never any debate about “when to meet.” It was never an issue in the 1st century. Such arguments are worthless.

Bob 2 said: NCT is not making an issue over a day, but arguing that a day is not more important than the Savior.

Tom said: Wrong. NCT teaches that a weekly Sabbath for the church is wrong, regardless if it is Sunday or the 7th day. So they ARE focused on a day, even as they argue against either Sunday or Saturday. Moreover, Jesus never taught, “A day is more important than a savior.” However, he did say that he was the Good Shepherd, and that his NC Sabbath was part of the Gospel, which God his Father told him to teach.

Jesus loved the NC Sabbath doctrine and made it part of his Gospel teachings. To reject his view of the Sabbath is to reject him and forfeit Eternal Life.

Bob 2 said: Covenant Theologians argue for the continuation of a Sabbath, at the extremes of appointing another day for a new unbiblically based reason and appearing to try to change "times and laws".

Tom said: Who cares what any theologians say? They were all wrong in the 1st century and they have pretty much been wrong throughout the long history of the church.

Jesus is the master theologian. All must go to him in the Gospels and learn from him. Fail to do this, and the odds are you will never understand the Gospel correctly. This will be the fate of most.

Bob 2 said: NCT lets the Bible speak for itself. With all due respect, it doesn't need a Reformed Sabbath Movement, which you are pushing.

Tom said: Ha! Let JESUS speak for himself. Many think they have found Eternal Life through the scriptures, but this is not really what is taking place. Listen to Jesus make this very point, a point that was part of a long Sabbath debate:

John 5:36 “But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish — the very works that I do — testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

John 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 5:38 “You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

John 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

John 5:40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 5:41 “I do not receive glory from men;

John 5:42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.

John 5:43 “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

John 5:44 “How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

Salvation comes from Christ, not the scriptures. All must find Jesus and learn the Gospel from him, including his Gospel Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: Jesus' life had many examples of things that we are not expected to do as Christians, "keeping" a Sabbath is one that Jesus never spoke in an anticipatory way of it being part of His kingdom but of being fulfilled by Himself, the sin forgiver, and rest from our labor of trying to save ourselves by good works.

Tom said: Jesus teaches an active, 7th day Sabbath. He does not teach an OC, non-working Sabbath, as the SDA’s claim.

Moreover, Jesus does teach that at the end of time, the Sabbath will be observed by his followers. So Jesus does teach the 7th day in the future. He does not say it is abolished, much less changed to Sunday or Every Day.

Matt. 24:17 “Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
Matt. 24:18 “Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Matt. 24:19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Matt. 24:20 “But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt. 24:22 “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Bob, Your attempt to define the NC Sabbath of Christ as some type of “fulfillment” that abolishes the OC Sabbath and then changes to an Every Day allegorical Sabbath of spiritual rest is ludicrous. Then to make matters worse, the NCT crowd meets on SUNDAY. Every Sunday.

NCT is a bad joke. There is no such doctrine as an Every Day Sabbath. There is no Sabbath fulfillment in the OT for Jesus to fulfill. Your fundamental points are based on sand. Repent of this garbage before you totally lose the Holy Spirit and you mind goes dark. This may have already happened to you, which explains your inability to repent and comprehend the genuine Gospel.

Bob 2 said: Read this passage, is He not our Sabbath Rest?

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Tom said: Bob, you need to stop with the proof texting games. It is for children who are learning their memory verses. However, for the adults, only the systematic study of all the passages on any given topic must be employed. There are scores of texts in the Gospels that speak about the NC Sabbath. Not only that, most of them are about Jesus debating and defending his NC Sabbath. Those in search of Gospel truth cannot overlook such verses. But yet, you and the NCT crowd continually overlook and ignore the Sabbath teachings of Christ. So be it. No wonder you can’t understand the Sabbath of Christ.

Jesus is not our Sabbath rest. He never said any such thing. In fact, he does not even teach a “resting” Sabbath, like Moses. Jesus teaches an active 7th day Sabbath, not a resting Sabbath where work is sinful.

Bob 2 said: Tom, was Samson unique, more unique than the Jews???

Tom said: Samson WAS a Jew.

Bob 2 said: Judges 13 tells how even his mother was restricted before conception regarding what she could eat or drink. Did every Israelite have to do the same? Did any Gentile need to do the same?

Tom said: All Jews had very strict food laws. Some more so than others.

Bob 2 said: So, the Jews were a unique people, required to follow certain laws, regulations and ordinances. Gentiles did not have to. Will Gentiles be saved without following the restrictions of the Nazarites or the Israelites??? Of course.

Tom said: Bob, you need to get away from the OT. The Gospel is not to be found in the OC. Go to the NT. Study the Gospels and learn from Christ. Leave Moses alone. Give the OT a rest. Go to Christ in the Gospels and learn the NC Sabbath from him. If he can’t help you understand, then no one can. Jesus is your only hope. Listen to him!

Bob 2 said: You wish to set up your own Reformed Sabbath that is unbiblical when the Bible shows how Jesus would give those that follow Him rest. Everyday, Tom, if you will.

Tom replied: Only Jesus can invent new doctrine for the church. This is exactly what he did when he invented the Gospel Sabbath, which he claims came from God his Father, who also works on the 7th day. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, not Tom Norris. I suggest that all pay close attention to what Jesus teaches, refuting any that disagree.

Bob 2 said: What is wrong with everyday "rest" from striving to be saved by our own efforts???

Tom said: Those who follow Christ are given spiritual rest from law keeping and sin. I am not saying otherwise. But such a point comes nowhere close to defining the Sabbath as taught by Christ in the Gospels. Jesus does not, not, not, teach a resting Sabbath. So that is the end of the matter for those that want to follow the genuine Christ of the Gospels.

Bob 2 said: There is nothing wrong with Dr. Sturges keeping a cozy Sabbath that gives him pleasure, but it is another thing to suggest that the Plan of Salvation requires it.

Tom said: Wrong. There is always something very wrong with false doctrine; much less those that give us “pleasure.” The Plan of Salvation requires faith in the genuine Christ. Those who receive Eternal Life must follow Christ as if he were the Good Shepherd and we his loyal and obedient sheep. To follow Christ means to embrace what he teaches about the NC Sabbath and all else.

Any that observe the resting, OC Sabbath of Moses, like the SDA’s and our friend Hub, are following not only false doctrine, but also a false Christ. This is the real problem with embracing a false view of the Sabbath today. This is also true of the Sunday keepers, which is why all in Laodicea must repent as directed by Christ in the real PAJ, which is the LM.

Bob 2 said: The Jews met the two requirements for Sabbath keeping. They were created by God, and they were delivered from Egypt. No other people are that unique, not even SDAs. They can adopt rules as tight as the Nazarites, but they are not salvific, healthy maybe, but long hair, not so much!!!! LOL

Tom said: The Sabbath is based on the CREATION OF THE WORLD. Not on the creation of the Jews. Although the Creation account is located in the Torah, it speaks to a time before there was a Jew. So the Sabbath was never about the Jews, but about the creation of planet Earth and the start of the human race.

No one today can invent any new doctrine, much less about the Sabbath. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels about his active Sabbath is what the church must follow. There should be no debate on such a point. Jesus teaches what he teaches, we either believe and follow him or we do not.

At this point, very few know Christ or what he teaches. The confusion over the Sabbath underscores this situation.

Bob 2 said: Tom, you seem to have trouble with Jesus fulfilling things. Note all the passages that use this terminology:

Tom said: Bob, again, stop the proof texting. If you really want to know what the Bible says on this or any topic, you must employ a systematic study of all the verses that speak to this issue, not just a few that seem to say what you want to hear. The fact of the matter is this: there were no OT prophecies where the Messiah was supposed to fulfill the Sabbath. Not one! Which is why you could not post one up for us to see. So why are you playing these dishonest games?

Bob 2 said: Tom with all this fulfilling by Jesus, do you doubt He fulfilled the Law also????

Tom said: Jesus did not fulfill the Sabbath on any level at any time. Nor did he obey the OC Sabbath. This “Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath” teaching from NCT is utter nonsense and mythical garbage. Stop trying to promote false doctrine. For what point? To what end?

Bob 2 said: By keeping it and expanding it and fulfilling the 4th Commandment by becoming our REST:

Tom said: Jesus did not keep the OC Sabbath, even as he taught others to break the 4th Commandment. This is one reason why the Jews were so angry with him. Jesus did not “expand” the 4th commandment, but rather, he made it MOOT. He teaches that we are not to follow the 4th Commandment. So your theory self-destructs on the facts.

Bob 2 said: The Gentiles neither were required to keep the Sabbath or be circumcised. This was the partition broken down make the church one, Jew and Gentile in Christ.

Tom said: No Christian, Jew or Gentile, was required to keep the OC Sabbath of Moses. That is why the Gentiles could join the church. The OC Sabbath was abolished, replaced with the active NC Sabbath where all are free to work on the 7th day.

Bob 2 said: Tom, where in the Law of Moses does it talk of Jesus Christ?

Tom answered:

Deut. 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

Bob 2 said: Jesus says it does, and that He was to fulfill it on His earthly mission. Could it be a Savior that can dispense rest and peace? "... and ye shall find rest unto your souls". What else is the Christian ultimately seeking, the correct eschatological timing, the correct prediction of the Final Test??

Tom said: Stop trying to defend NCT and learn the Gospel from Christ. This is your only hope. Neither the OT nor NT teaches that the Messiah was to fulfill the doctrine of the Sabbath. How does one fulfill a day? Much less one that is all about the creation event?

Pay attention: Jesus teaches that the Sabbath was not made to be fulfilled by the Messiah. Rather, it was made for all humanity, as was the world, the Gospel, and the Church. THIS IS WHAT JEUS TEACHES. Not what NCT promotes.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Did Jesus claim that he was to fulfill the Sabbath as you claim? No he did not. He said something else that is mutually exclusive of what NCT is promoting.

NCT teaches: The Sabbath was made to be fulfilled by Christ. Then abolished, then changed to an Every Day doctrine of spiritual rest for those that meet on Sunday.

I choose to believe the written words, teachings, and doctrines of Christ. You have embraced the double-talk and anti-Christ doctrine of Zaspel and Wells. Any that are serious about obtaining Eternal Life had better repent of all false doctrine as soon as possible.

Bob 2 said: The "Final Test", if there is one, or is it hype from those that have trumped up a "moral" law, that will eliminate large numbers of "Sunday go to meeting" Christians from those that will rise to the heavens when Christ returns??? Really????

Tom said: The SDA’s were correct to teach that the final Gospel Message in Rev 18, would include the 7th day Sabbath. However, they were wrong to think it was the non-working, OC doctrine of Moses. No, it is the NC doctrine of Christ, of which they are CLUELESS. Those who repudiate what Jesus teaches about the 7th day, which is what the SDA’s have done, along with everyone else, will not embrace the Gospel and thus they will not be saved.

The SDA’s were so certain and arrogant about their doctrine of the Sabbath, as were the Jews, that they failed to understand they had not fully grasped the Gospel or the Sabbath of Christ. They made an idol out of false doctrine, and so too has the NCT crowd. Time to correct this massive error, which is destroying the Advent Movement right in front of our eyes. NCT is not the solution, only the NCS of Christ is true doctrine for the church.

Bob 2 quoted Tom, who said: While Jesus gives his followers the assurance and hope of Eternal Life as well as spiritual rest from the guilt and condemnation of the law, he is not the fulfillment of the Sabbath, whatever that is supposed to mean. Such views are mythical, confused, and false, without any historical foundation or theological substance.

Then Bob 2 said: Tom, you are frustrating, because the clear Word of God is not your guide as shown above. You have an agenda not based on the Bible. Because Jesus spoke about the Sabbath, does not make it anymore a part of the New Covenant, than the Feast of Tabernacles that He celebrated as a good Jew.

Tom replied: You are frustrated because you don’t know the scriptures very well, which is also why you can’t score any points in defense of NCT. In fact, the more you promote NCT, the worse it looks. You are in a hopeless situation (pun intended). Your only hope is to repent and embrace what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath and everything else. Can you do that? If not, don’t fool yourself into thinking you have a future after the grave. There is only darkness and doom waiting those that refused Gospel light when they had the chance. Sad.

Bob 2 said: When someone makes peace, does it not involve rest, the rest the Sabbath was to give to an overworked Jewish nation.

Tom said: First, peace and rest are not the same. Second, Jesus did NOT come to earth and bring “peace” as you assume. You would know this if you spent time with the Gospels. Third, such a simple fact shows that NCT is based on double-talk, error, and myth.

Matt. 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Matt. 10:35 “For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;

Matt. 10:36 and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

Matt. 10:37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Matt. 10:38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

Matt. 10:39 “He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Matt. 10:40 “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

Jesus came to earth to wage war against his adversary the devil. He did not come primarily to bring peace or to promote rest. This is why his doctrine of the Sabbath promotes activity and work as well as Gospel fellowship and praise to God. Nor did Jesus come to just help the Jews, but all mankind. Stop forcing the Gospel Story to follow the storyline of NCT. Just follow the facts and believe the words of Christ. What Jesus teaches about the Sabbath is not to be ignored, changed, or repudiated. It is Gospel doctrine for the church.

Bob 2 said: When Jesus can give that kind of peace, rest and reconciliation because God gave Him "all His fullness [to] dwell in him," does it not eliminate the need to wait for a day for the peace and rest.

Tom said: While the SDA’s obsessed about “resting” on the Sabbath, Jesus does not agree with this OC view. He promotes a working Sabbath. So there is no looking forward to the 7th day as if it were an OC rest day. Thus there is no reason to “wait for a day of peace and rest.”

All that are in Christ have the assurance of Eternal Life, which assurance by faith produces peace 7 days a week.

John 16:33 “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

John 14:27 “Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

Jesus death on the cross did not “eliminate” the Creation Story or the doctrine of the Sabbath. Which is why Jesus teaches his NC Sabbath over and over in the Gospels, and why he claims to be in charge of this creation doctrine that pre-dated Judaism. There is no excuse for anyone to ignore, change, or refute what Christ teaches about the 7th day.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

So I repeat: the NC Sabbath is not a source of peace or rest. Rather, it is a day to remember the creation story and to thank God for the Gospel, and worship him and his Son, fellowshipping with others of like mind. It is also a day of activity and action, not rest.

Bob 2 said: It's Ok to rest on the shadow day, but not to "overshadow" the very Savior it pointed to as the peace giver.

Tom said: The NC Sabbath is not about rest, but the OPPOSITE. Jesus does not teach a resting Sabbath. That is Moses in the OC. Moreover, it was very wrong for the Jews to refuse Christ’s NC view of the Sabbath, and to maintain that it was sinful to work on the 7th day when he was teaching the opposite.

It is “NOT OK” to act like an unbelieving, Gospel hating, OC Jew, thinking that all must rest on the 7th day Sabbath. It is very sinful in the NC, even wicked and anti-Christ. Thus the SDA’s are great sinners every 7th day, because they are not following what Christ teaches about the Sabbath. They are following the theology of the Jews that hated the Gospel and sent Christ to the cross for Sabbath breaking. They are refuting Christ; spitting in his face, even as they collect tithes like the OC Jews and pretend they are God’s favorite people.

Those who mock God and ignore the words of his Son, teaching one false and self-serving doctrine after another, including the Sabbath, will not be granted Eternal Life. It is delusional for anyone to think otherwise.

Also, stop pretending that Jesus is all about peace. He is not. Rather, his next great mission is to act as a judge of the earth, and to destroy his enemies. This is not about peace, but about war and great tribulation. Peace will only come at the end.

Heb. 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Heb. 11:14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.

Heb. 11:15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.

Heb. 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

Bob 2 said: Tom, let us read Hebrew 4, "for all it's worth" as Hank Hanegraaff says when some leave out meaning that with proper study, light is shone on a text which was previously dull to the understanding:

Tom said: This is not going to help you defend NCT. This passage does not support an abolished Sabbath or the Every Day Sabbath of NCT. Sorry.

Bob 2 said: The writer must be writing about something other than the Sabbath-Rest of the Decalogue. If one did not "keep" the Sabbath, he risked death. This chapter must be referring to something else.

Tom said: Why are you trying to understand the Gospel Sabbath of Christ from the unknown writer of Hebrews when you have Jesus speaking over and over about the Sabbath in the Gospels? Do you see how dishonest you are to play such games? Jesus is the Lord of the NC Sabbath, not the unknown writer of Hebrews. If you want to understand the true Sabbath doctrine of Christ, then you must go to the proper source, which is Jesus, and listen to him.

Bob 2 said: Note: "since the promise of entering his rest still stands", really?? Did not the Jews in the desert keep the Old Covenant Sabbath correctly? Had they not they would have been killed. So Hebrews 4 must be talking of something different. The Christian's true rest that he seeks is rest from worrying and striving to be accepted by God/Jesus and have their sins forgiven.

Tom said: The Jews never kept the law correctly, because they lacked faith. That is why they were always in trouble with God. So your assumption is false.

Heb. 3:16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

Heb. 3:17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?

Heb. 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?

Heb. 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

There is an entire thread on Heb 4. No need to go over the same arguments.

http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=242

In conclusion, let all learn the Gospel Sabbath from Christ. He is the master theologian, and we his students. There will be no excuse for anyone in the judgment day that misunderstands the Gospel or the NC Sabbath of Christ. No amount of double-talk will work on that day when all must face Christ, the Judge of the world and explain what they believe and why they should be saved.

Nah. 1:6 Who can stand before His indignation?
Who can endure the burning of His anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire
And the rocks are broken up by Him.

Rom. 14:10 For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”

Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

Last edited by tom_norris (02-17-14 9:57 pm)

bob_2 · 02-17-14 11:56 pm

Tom said:

While there is no basis for Sunday, theologians embrace it because Jesus clearly teaches a weekly Sabbath worship, and so too did the Moral Law before him and the long history of the Jews. So there are biblical grounds for a weekly worship day in the church - but Sunday is the wrong day, as you well know. Only the 7th day can be the right day. Not Sunday, Any day, or Every Day. Only the active and reformed 7th day Lord’s Day, is the true NC Sabbath for the church. There is no other theological possibility.

Tom the only reason for a congregation getting together is not a NC directive, other than:

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

All you have to do, Tom, is look at the 40 days Jesus spent on earth between resurrection and ascension and you don't find him splitting the hairs you waste time on. There is no holy day mandated by the Gospel. Jesus spoke of it during His life because people were mixed up about the Sabbath uniquely given to the Jews. He told everyone,

Matthew 11: 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

That is what Jesus said was necessary to be saved, to believe in Him, not worship a "seventh day". He is our Sabbath rest for our soul, get it Tom, "soul rest". That is needed more than on an assembly day. And an assembly day is for what? "To "encourage one another". Heb 10:24. You and so many have made a god out of a NC Sabbath that doesn't exist. You talk about a Reformed Sabbath that no other person I have met speaks of. It is of your own CONSTRUCT. Sort of like the "golden calf" the Israelites constructed while the OC was being given to Moses from God.

Last edited by bob_2 (02-17-14 11:59 pm)

tom_norris · 02-19-14 9:15 pm

Bob, you are a hopeless case. You seem unable to comprehend the Gospel Story. It is obvious that you have chosen not to read, or study, much less believe, the many words of Christ about the Sabbath. So be it. Many, like the Jews, have taken this same position to their graves. Sad.

Tom said: While there is no basis for Sunday, theologians embrace it because Jesus clearly teaches a weekly Sabbath worship, and so too did the Moral Law before him and the long history of the Jews. So there are biblical grounds for a weekly worship day in the church - but Sunday is the wrong day, as you well know.

If there is a Sabbath day for the church, and there is, only the 7th day can be the right day. Not Sunday, Any Day, or Every Day. Only the active and reformed 7th day Lord’s Day, is the true NC Sabbath for the church. There is no other theological possibility.

Bob 2 replied: Tom the only reason for a congregation getting together is not a NC directive, other than: Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Tom said: Why do you overlook what Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, teaches in the Gospels about the 7th day? Jesus upholds the Creation Story, as well as the Sabbath, which is part of the history of the world. Why would you think otherwise? Why do you run to the unknown author of Hebrews, or to anyone else, like Paul, to supposedly find out what Christ teaches about the Sabbath? Why not go directly to Jesus in the Gospels? He did not take the title of Lord of the Sabbath for no reason. He is the Sabbath expert, which doctrine he created when he and his Father created the world, and for all mankind. Why do you overlook such a fundamental theological fact?

The long history of the Jews, and the teachings of Jesus, and the history of the church, all make it clear that there is a weekly doctrine where the church, the New Israel, meets for NC worship and Gospel fellowship. How can this be denied?

Answer: It cannot be denied. But fools don’t care about knowledge or facts; this is why they are fools.

Prov. 15:2 The tongue of the wise makes knowledge acceptable,
But the mouth of fools spouts folly.

Prov. 15:7 The lips of the wise spread knowledge,
But the hearts of fools are not so.

Prov. 15:14 The mind of the intelligent seeks knowledge,
But the mouth of fools feeds on folly.

Bob 2 said: All you have to do, Tom, is look at the 40 days Jesus spent on earth between resurrection and ascension and you don't find him splitting the hairs you waste time on.

Tom replied: No. No. No. Why do you always look for the NC Sabbath in the wrong places? Are you blind? Or just a Gospel hating fool? Why do you play such games?

Who said that the Sabbath of Christ is explained after the resurrection to his disciples?

No one! This instruction all took place before the cross, which is why it is placed in the Gospels as located. Stop trying to change the Gospel Story to fit your false, anti-Christ doctrines.

Stop pretending that you can’t find Jesus teaching his NC 7th day Sabbath in the NT. As if you are really seeking for Gospel truth. Such intentional blindness is exactly why the Jews could never understand Christ or embrace his Gospel teachings. They refused to consider that his NC Sabbath views, or the mighty works Jesus did on the Sabbath, were from God. They refused to believe.

So they shut their eyes to the amazing miracles Jesus was doing on the Sabbath, denying the very works that were taking place in front of their eyes. You are making the same mistake, for which you will also be cursed, condemned, and destroyed. Sad.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!

During the Sabbath debates, Jesus teaches that the true shepherd can be identified as the one with the active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. Thus, the NCS is the key to the door of the sheepfold. Those that don’t have this special doctrine cannot enter the front door. They are frauds that must break in because they don’t belong there. They are robbers looking to steal the sheep.

No one should think that to pay close attention to the words, sayings, and teachings of Christ is the same as splitting hairs or wasting time. We are only saved by the Gospel words of Christ, and thus we must be very careful to correctly understand the meaning of his words. The confused state of the Sabbath doctrine in every church underscores how few understand the words of Christ.

John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

Mark 8:38 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

John 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

It is time for all to stop pretending about religion and church doctrine. It is time to for all, including the SDA’s and their many critics, to stop playing games with the doctrine of the Sabbath. All must learn this Gospel doctrine directly from the words of Christ without a paid clergy to interpret, twist, and monetize them into worthless confusion and error. Any that seriously want Eternal Life, must repent and go to the correct source to find the Gospel and the NC Sabbath, for themselves. The organized church has failed everyone in heaven and earth. There is only error and confusion in Laodicea, which is why Jesus has condemned the last church, demanding repentance and Gospel Reform, as well as Sabbath Reform.

Rev. 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

Let all listen to Jesus words in the genuine Pre Advent Judgment of the last church, - and follow the words and repent.

Bob 2 said: There is no holy day mandated by the Gospel. Jesus spoke of it during His life because people were mixed up about the Sabbath uniquely given to the Jews.

Tom replied; First, no Jew in the 1st century was “mixed up” about the Sabbath as you claim. Their law and their calendar was clear, and thus all were united on the 4th Commandment, where no work could be performed on the 7th day, except for the Levites. (They were exempt from this law.) There was no debate about the Sabbath like there was about divorce.

Ex. 20:11 “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

So you are once again wrong about the Gospel Story. The 7th day was a public sign of Judaism, even part of their Covenant with God. It was fundamental to Judaism, part of the Creation Story. This doctrine was not under debate until Jesus reformed it and stunned the religious leaders. His NC 7th day Sabbath caused great debate and division, and so it will today.

Ex. 31:14 ‘Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Ex. 31:16 ‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’

Ex. 35:2 “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Ex. 35:3 “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.”

Lev. 16:31 “It is to be a sabbath of solemn rest for you, that you may humble your souls; it is a permanent statute.

Second, the NCS is NOT a holy day, like the OCS. Jesus teaches that all are free from the law of the 4th commandment, which is why he was always working on the 7th day.

So stop inventing mythical doctrines to attack. Adventist Reform does not promote a “holy Sabbath day.” That is an error of the OC SDA’s, with their OC Sabbath and OC tithing nonsense. It is time to move forward to the NC Sabbath, which is featured in the Gospel of Christ. Many today are very confused about the Gospel and the Sabbath. But not Jesus. He is the master theologian that all must understand and follow. It is clear that you neither read his words, nor follow him. Sad.

Bob 2 said: He told everyone, in Matthew 11: 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Tom said: You need to stop using this pathetic proof texting, where you pull out any text you like, while ignoring the many texts that refute your views. This is very dishonest and unprofessional; it will not lead to the discovery of truth, but only error. It also makes you look like an uneducated fool.

If you want to know what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath, then go to the many places in the Gospels and learn the truth from him. Go to the many Sabbath debates and see Jesus in action, defending and debating his new and amazing doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath. Don’t say his words were not meant for the church. That is an absurd excuse, which will not be accepted at the Judgment day.

Those that pretend they are blind, eventually become so, even though they think they can see. Bob, it is clear to me that you are a blind man from birth; but yet, you refuse to admit his condition, much less accept treatment. Sad. There can be no healing for those who are so delusional as to think they are not sick, when they are fatally ill, living in the dark.

Matt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

Bob then said: That is what Jesus said was necessary to be saved, to believe in Him, not worship a "seventh day".

Tom replied: To “believe” in Christ is to understand, believe, and embrace what he teaches about everything, including the 7th day Sabbath. Those that refuse to believe Jesus’ active and reformed Sabbath were called fools by Christ, judged as blind, and condemned. Why? Because they would not believe in the only person that could save them.

The fact you, and NCT, refuse to acknowledge the many Sabbath passages from Christ, is beside the point. The Gospels are open to all, thus there will be no excuse on the Judgment day for anyone to misunderstand the Gospel, which includes what Jesus teaches about the 7th day. Those Jews in the Gospel Story that rejected The NC Sabbath of Christ, - rejected Christ. Likewise, those Gentiles or Jews today that do the same thing, - are also rejecting Christ. To reject what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath is to reject God, Christ, and the Scriptures.

The SDA’s have rejected Christ, over and over. This is why they follow a false view of the Sabbath and a false, worthless Gospel. This is why they need to repent and embrace Gospel Reform. NCT is no better. They too have a false view of the law and the Gospel, as well as the Sabbath.

Bob 2 concluded: He is our Sabbath rest for our soul, get it Tom, "soul rest".

Tom said: Sorry, I don’t get it. Why? Because the Bible does not teach this myth about Jesus being our Sabbath rest, so that this weekly practice can be abolished; then changed to an Every Day doctrine for those who meet on Sunday. The Gospels do not contain any such convoluted position as NCT teaches, and you have been unable to show Jesus coming anywhere close to teaching such nonsense.

But no matter. If you think Zaspel and Wells can give you Eternal Life, then follow them and embrace what they teach about the Sabbath. They will be your version of the Good Shepherd. Maybe they can help you explain your views to Christ in the Judgment Day, but I would not count on it doing any good. The entire NCT crowd will be condemend by the genuine Christ, who is also the Lord of the Sabbath. He is not going to be fooled by this Every Day Sabbath nonsense, much less by those who refuse to beleive or follow his words.

But count me out. I will follow Jesus, the genuine Good Shepherd, and hope that he can deliver Eternal Life. I will bet the farm on Christ, but not on some two bit religious blowhards as you are doing. You have gone from one set of SDA errors to another set just as bad.

Pay attention: There is no longer a resting 7th day Sabbath in the NC. Nor does Jesus teach any such doctrine. He teaches a working, active Sabbath, free from the guilt and the OC Law that demanded forced rest under pain of death. Only what Jesus teaches in the Gospels can be the Sabbath for the church. NCT teaches garbage and nonsense, while the SDA’s have embraced the doctrine of those who were anti-Christ. The NCS will force the Advent Movement to repent of their OC Sabbath views and move forward to the next level, the 4th Angels Message. They should have done this years ago…

Bob 2 said: That is needed more than on an assembly day. And an assembly day is for what? "To "encourage one another". Heb 10:24.

Tom said: No one needs false doctrine. Let’s be clear about this point. Moreover, it is a little late to question the history, meaning, or use of the Sabbath. Much less to pretend Jesus taught no such doctrine for the church. NCT is so strange and against the facts, that it is easily exposed as nonsense. All should run from such false doctrine. At least the SDA’s were correct about the 7th day, and that we need to follow the Sabbath teachings of Christ. However, they were blind to what Jesus was actually teaching about the 7th day. For this they must repent and “zealously” repent as directed by Christ in the PAJ.

Bob 2 said: You and so many have made a god out of a NC Sabbath that doesn't exist.

Tom said: The SDA’s made a god out of the OC Sabbath, and so too did you, because you were SDA for most of your life. So too did many others, except their god was the Sunday Sabbath, and they were so obsessed with it that they pushed for Sunday Blue Laws to force everyone to follow their false views. It is not only the SDA’s that have made errors about this very public doctrine. The only solution to the legions of false Sabbath views is for all to repent and only follow the active and reformed Gospel Sabbath of Christ. It is very simple. Follow the Good Shepherd, with his active and guilt free, 7th day Sabbath to Eternal Life.

Bob 2 said: You talk about a Reformed Sabbath that no other person I have met speaks of. It is of your own CONSTRUCT. Sort of like the "golden calf" the Israelites constructed while the OC was being given to Moses from God.

Tom said: Ha! Thank you for the compliment. However, I am not smart enough to invent new doctrine, as you charge, nor do I have any such authority or goal. So this is not what is taking place. The active and reformed Sabbath of Christ is located in the Gospels. I am just pointing out what has been written in the 1st century, and what has been obviously overlooked by others. Its’ not my doctrine or my invention whatsoever. I am not the Lord of the Sabbath, this is the role of Christ and he is welcome to it.

At some point, the doctrine of the Sabbath, as well as the eschatology of the 19th century minded SDA’s, had to be updated, improved, and brought into the 21st century. It was inevitable. Someone had to do it. And it was not going to be anyone working for the SDA church for obvious reasons. I suggest you rejoice at such a much-needed correction rather then complain, or try and push the Advent Movement into further error. The NCS represents a paradigm shift, which is long overdue.

Remember, the Jews also thought Jesus Gospel teachings were false and abominable. This is why they said he was insane and demon possessed. So your reaction to the genuine Gospel Sabbath of Christ is normative. This is how the bad actors in the Gospel Story also reacted.

It is amazing how close the SDA’s resemble the faithless Jews that sent Christ to the cross. They are so very similar, in a bad way. Thus the search for truth by the 19th century Adventists has given way to error, tradition and corruption, which means it is time for GOSPEL REFORM within the Adventist Community.

It is time for all to repent of their false views, of which the Sabbath is the most visible and public.

When the church finally understands the NC Sabbath correctly, they will also understand the Gospel and eschatology and many others things correctly, including how to love one another.

It is time to understand the Gospel.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

Last edited by tom_norris (02-20-14 11:42 am)

bob_2 · 02-20-14 3:31 pm

Tom, I have to get on with my review of "New Covenant Theology". We have done enough back and forth so those reading can make up their minds on the logical, truth filled position.

Last edited by bob_2 (02-20-14 3:32 pm)

tom_norris · 02-20-14 5:52 pm

I agree. This is your thread and your section, continue on with your presentation of NCT.

But we all know:

1) what is coming and,

2) that NCT will be easily exposed as error and false doctrine.

So let this process continue for all to see.

Let everyone see the debate and choose to either follow the genuine Christ, or someone else.

Tom Norris, for the active and reformed NC Sabbath of Christ

Last edited by tom_norris (02-20-14 6:31 pm)

bob_2 · 02-21-14 11:07 pm

Let the reader be clear on Tom and my difference as we proceed. We both believe that the Decalogue does not have continuity from Old to New Covenant. What Tom is arguing is that because Christ spoke of the Sabbath while alive on the earth, that it is a New Covenant doctrine. This argument is easily dealt with. When Christ says the following, is He limiting what He can hold a Christian to by what He only said on earth and no additional standards???

John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

So, according to Tom, whatever Jesus did not get around to saying to the disciples/Apostles and followers, they are not obligated to keep as a standard of behavior? Tom has placed doubt in the mind of the reader about the Holy Spirit. He has limited Him to things only said by Jesus while on earth, yet Jesus Himself says different. "I have much more to say to you." But Christ says, " But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth." Tom has some splainin' to do.

Tom said,

Let everyone see the debate and choose to either follow the genuine Christ, or someone else.
Tom Norris, for the active and reformed NC Sabbath of Christ

Tom has put himself higher than the Holy Spirit. What blasphemy!!!!! And put his own CONSTRUCT of a Reformed Sabbath as more important than what the Holy Spirit will say to complement what Jesus has said. The Godhead, is a Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. No where do I see a "God the Tom Norris". Your extra biblical teaching is nowhere to be seen or for that matter, taught by anyone else.

Last edited by bob_2 (02-21-14 11:17 pm)

bob_2 · 02-21-14 11:39 pm

For a moment, let's return to those that believe the Ten Commandments are still the rule of faith. Did Jesus mean to limit the Christian to only the infractions outlined in the Decalogue, those 10 infractions and no others???? This question makes it very clear that there is an expansion of what is expected of the Christian and can only be accomplished by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The issue of behavior standards does not stand on a Reformed Sabbath. No, No!!! Soul Rest is offered by Jesus himself, Matthew 11:28-30. Not the mockery of Tom's Every Day Sabbath, but true forgiveness of sin, which is Soul Rest. Listen to Tom Wells in Chapter 12, page 197 of New Covenant Theology:

The OT and the NT stand in typological relation to one another. Everything in redemptive history in the OT points to Christ. In some cases, but only in some, we are able to specify how these things individually are fulfilled in him.

bob_2 · 02-27-14 1:39 am

Read Heb 8:13. Then think of the life of a butterfly as an analogy of the OC/OT and the NC/NT transformation. No longer can the butterfly be like a caterpillar but it or we cannot deny that the butterfly was not able to exist without the caterpillar phase of it's life. So with the Plan of Salvation. Though the Jews failed in their disbelief, the phase of the OC/OT was necessary to be fulfilled by the life of the butterfly, or in the analogy, Christ becoming the transformed butterfly. With a New Covenant comes a new law,

Eph 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Also:

Heb 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

There are those that believe the Decalogue was for all to live by. No, it was given to the Jews, uniquely. When Christ came, the Decalogue was part of the history of the Plan of Salvation, but it now expands under Christ and has a transformation under the New Covenant to Christ's Law,

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

As you read the NT there is the Sermon on the Mount with it's "but I say unto you" lawgiving by Christ. The Sabbath is not for all perpetuity, Christ fulfills it by becoming "OUR PEACE". 2 Eph 2:14 That is SOUL REST promised in:

Matthew 11: 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

There is nowhere in the Word of God that demands that the Sabbath or a holy day will be part of the New Covenant. The only obligation of the Christian in the regard to worship and assembly as believers is found here in scripture:

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Last edited by bob_2 (02-27-14 1:58 am)

bob_2 · 02-27-14 2:34 am

One last statement before leaving Chapters 11 and 12. Tom Wells tries to be kind in addressing his friend Richard Barcellos' concerns about NCT. He is a Reformed Baptist minister, and both have Calvin to explain in their beliefs. However in closing these two chapters, Barcellos is left with his one dimensional view of the OC and the NC. His belief is the Decalogue is more than the center of the OC. Wells makes it clear than the NC is the transformational butterfly, and the OC is the caterpillar phase of the butterfly's life. TRANSFORMATIONAL!!!! Let me make this one last quote from Chapter 12 by Tom Wells:

...that the OT is indeed an ethical canon along with the New, but only when the full light of Christ's fulfillment is shed on it.

One's hermeneutic ( a method or principle of interpretation ) of the whole Bible comes into play at this point. What is God trying to reveal to us, in each Testament? Are we consistent in our dealing with the WHOLE story that is the OT plus the NT. If we are not consistent, we will not get God's message and way of saving man. Important??? Most Certainly!!!!

Last edited by bob_2 (02-27-14 2:35 am)

tom_norris · 03-04-14 10:28 pm

Bob, your attempts at “clarity” have fallen short. Let me make some corrections:

Bob 2 said: Let the reader be clear on Tom and my difference as we proceed. We both believe that the Decalogue does not have continuity from Old to New Covenant.

Tom replied: The Moral law has continuity in the NC because Jesus takes the 10 Commandments and applies them to the NC era. In fact, he applies them to our innermost thoughts, not just our outward actions. So they DO have continuity according to Christ.

Do not kill or murder is expanded to-- do not hate in our mind, and committing adultery is expanded to mean even having wrong thoughts. Thus, the Moral law is still obviously operative, valid in the NC to define sin. Which means, the Moral law does exist in the NC. While it is subordinated to Faith in Christ, meaning that no Christian is “under” the Moral law for salvation, it still exists in the NC. If not, how could God judge the world at the end of time? This judgment takes place in the NC, not the OC.

Bob 2 said: What Tom is arguing is that because Christ spoke of the Sabbath while alive on the earth, that it is a New Covenant doctrine.

Tom said: Jesus teaches the Gospel. I have never heard any theologian claim that Jesus’ Gospel teachings are not for the church. This is such an absurd position that it makes no sense whatsoever. The Gospels are NT writings, not OT.

What Jesus teaches about his Gospel Sabbath is for the church. Jesus teaches an active, NC, 7th day doctrine of the Sabbath for both Jews and Gentiles that would believe on him and join his church. To deny this fact is to deny Christ.

Bob 2 said: This argument is easily dealt with.

Tom said: Wrong. Jesus Gospel teaching, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day, is the foundation of the church. To deny this fact, is to deny Christ and the Gospel.

Matt. 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Bob 2 said: When Christ says the following, is He limiting what He can hold a Christian to by what He only said on earth and no additional standards???

Tom replied: Your views are heretical and outrageous. They are obviously designed to give you an excuse to deny what Jesus teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. It won’t work. We are saved by the words, sayings, and teachings of Christ in the Gospels; to deny this is to deny Christ.

Bob 2 posted: John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Tom replied: This passage in no way negates or refutes what Jesus teaches about the NC Sabbath in the Gospels. Why would you think so?

Bob 2 said: So, according to Tom, whatever Jesus did not get around to saying to the disciples/Apostles and followers, they are not obligated to keep as a standard of behavior?

Tom said: Don’t worry. Jesus did not forget any point of Gospel doctrine as you claim. He has made no mistake of omission. He teaches what he teaches, and we either believe him or we do not. You do not. So be it. I do. At some point we will see who has made the better decision.

Bob 2 said: Tom has placed doubt in the mind of the reader about the Holy Spirit. He has limited Him to things only said by Jesus while on earth, yet Jesus Himself says different. "I have much more to say to you." But Christ says, " But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth." Tom has some splainin' to do.

Tom said: Wow! You are a blind man to say such things. The words of Jesus have been written down with the help of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Gospels contain Jesus words, which are expressly endorsed and supported by the Holy Spirit.

There is no new doctrine articulated by the apostles or the HS as you claim. The SDA’s also played this same game, which allowed them to say that the IJ was new doctrine from the Holy Spirit. But this was never true because there can be no new Gospel doctrine aside from what Christ has taught in the Gospels. The HS is not the source for any new doctrine, nor will it ever be the source.

For example, Jesus was kind to the Gentiles, even healing a Roman soldiers daughter. So when the time came for the Gentiles to enter the church, it only appeared that this was new doctrine.

However, Christ had made this point many times in the Gospels, many years before Peter was given a vision to let the Gentiles enter the church. So it was not brand new doctrine, it was a doctrine that Christ had already introduced, but it had been overlooked by the early church leaders until Christ gave Peter a vision to let the Gentiles come into the church. Then he understood what Christ had previously taught on this point.

Bob 2 said: Tom has put himself higher than the Holy Spirit. What blasphemy!!!!! And put his own CONSTRUCT of a Reformed Sabbath as more important than what the Holy Spirit will say to complement what Jesus has said.

Tom replied: Wow! What a fool you are. Pay attention: Jesus is the Lord of the 7th day Sabbath. What he teaches in the Gospels about the NC Sabbath is what those who follow him must believe. If you don’t like it, then don’t follow Christ. And you don’t. You are anti-Christ.

Bob 2 said: The Godhead, is a Trinity, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. No where do I see a "God the Tom Norris". Your extra biblical teaching is nowhere to be seen or for that matter, taught by anyone else.

Tom replied: There are scores and scores of passages in the Gospels where Jesus teaches, debates, and defend his NC view of the 7th day. This is not an opinion, but an obvious fact, which cannot be denied. What Christ teaches about the Sabbath is what those who follow him must understand and believe. Very simple.

Bob 2 said: For a moment, let's return to those that believe the Ten Commandments are still the rule of faith.

Tom said: The 10 C’s are not the rule of faith for any Christian. In fact, the law is not about faith, but obedience. Thus, those Christians that think the Moral law is a rule of faith, like the SDA’s, are wrong. The law is not of faith whatsoever.

Gal. 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

Christians follow Jesus by faith, not the Moral law by faith. Big difference. Jesus’ teachings about salvation and behavior is the NC “rule of faith;” also called the “law of Christ.” OC Judaism has been replaced with the NC Gospel, where the “obedience of faith” is featured. Not the obedience of Law keeping.

Those that understand the Gospel correctly, will not try to obey the Moral law, but only the teachings of Jesus as they relate to the Moral Law. When it comes to the 4th Commandment, Jesus teaches that we are NOT TO OBEY IT.

We are to be active on the 7th day, in addition to participating in congregational worship because this is what Christ teaches. Thus we do not follow the Law of Moses, but the Law of Christ, by faith, happily embracing his active and reformed NC Sabbath.

Rom. 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

Rom. 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

Bob 2 asked: Did Jesus mean to limit the Christian to only the infractions outlined in the Decalogue, those 10 infractions and no others????

Tom said: Jesus did not come to Earth to point out sin or condemnation. The human race was already condemned and sitting under the Judgment of God long before Christ came to preach the Gospel. Jesus came to save mankind, not to give more rules and regulations to obey, as if he were another Moses.

Luke 19:10 “For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

To please Christ, is to believe in him for Eternal Life, and follow his teachings. Not having faith in Christ is wrong, even fatal.

John 6:27 “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

John 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Heb. 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

By faith, we are to embrace the active 7th day Sabbath of Christ because this is what he teaches. We are not to embrace the Law of Moses, and at the same time pretend we are following Christ. Any that think it sinful to work on the 7th day, like the SDA’s, are not following Christ or comprehending his Gospel. They are Pharisees and Judaizers, anti-Gospel and anti-Christ.

Bob 2 said: This question makes it very clear that there is an expansion of what is expected of the Christian and can only be accomplished by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Tom said: Those that view the Gospel through the Law, are blind to the teachings of Christ. Salvation is only through faith in Christ’s promise to forgive and save us individually, regardless of the fact that we are sinners. Eternal Life is not based on our obedience to the Moral law. Nor does law keeping, as the SDA’s teach, help retain salvation. We are saved only by the mercy of God, in spite of the law that wants to destroy sinners.

Bob 2 said: The issue of behavior standards does not stand on a Reformed Sabbath.

Tom replied: Jesus teaches an active and reformed 7th day Sabbath for the church. Period. Those who follow the genuine Christ will understand and embrace what he teaches about the NC Sabbath. Those that are only pretending to follow Christ, will run away from the Gospel Sabbath, like stupid and confused sheep. These fools will believe most anything about the Sabbath, - except for what Christ teaches, proving themselves not worthy of Eternal Life.

Only the genuine Christ can save. He can be identified as the Good Shepherd with the amazing and controversial Sabbath doctrine for the church to follow. The false shepherds do not have this active, 7th day doctrine, and neither do the hired hands. Let all the sheep be alert and beware of false Shepherds.

Bob 2 said: No, No!!! Soul Rest is offered by Jesus himself, Matthew 11:28-30. Not the mockery of Tom's Every Day Sabbath, but true forgiveness of sin, which is Soul Rest.

Tom replied: Jesus’ amazing Sabbath doctrine is not to be ignored by the last church, much less repudiated and replaced with religious double-talk and error. There is no such phrase or Sabbath doctrine known as “Soul Rest.” The Every Day Sabbath of NCT, regardless how it is articulated, is absurd and laughable. It deserves to be mocked because it is a bad joke, one that is blocking the forward progress of the Gospel.

The solution to the Sabbath debate has been found. What Jesus teaches in the Gospels about the 7th day Sabbath is what the church must follow. Period! THIS is what the Adventist Movement must embrace with both hands. Thus, the SDA’s must repent of their false, OC Sabbath doctrine and embrace the correct 7th day position.

Bob 2 posted: Listen to Tom Wells in Chapter 12, page 197 of New Covenant Theology:

“The OT and the NT stand in typological relation to one another. Everything in redemptive history in the OT points to Christ. In some cases, but only in some, we are able to specify how these things individually are fulfilled in him.”

Tom replied: Wrong. “Everything” in the OT does NOT point to Christ. This is a blatant exaggeration that is easily disproven. Does the snake in the Garden represent Christ? How about the evil nations? Do they also represent Christ? Does Rome equal Christ? Does Satan? What about the faithless Jews? Do they represent Christ? Hardly. Do you see the point? Such a position is absurd and obviously wrong.

While there were a number of prophecies for the Messiah to fulfill, there is no such prophecy about him fulfilling the Sabbath, as if anything could “fulfill” a memorial to the creation event. Such a fact destroys NCT, which is based on myth, fiction, and delusion.

Those that want to understand the doctrine of the NC Sabbath, must go to Jesus in the Gospels and learn the doctrine directly from him, the Lord of the NC Sabbath. Any that fail to do this will find themselves embracing a false Christ and a worthless Gospel. Is this what you want?

Bob 2 said: Read Heb 8:13. Then think of the life of a butterfly as an analogy of the OC/OT and the NC/NT transformation. No longer can the butterfly be like a caterpillar but it or we cannot deny that the butterfly was not able to exist without the caterpillar phase of it's life.

Tom said; Stop with the insect typology. There is no basis for it. Theology cannot be viewed in such a trite and mythical manner. If Jesus failed to use such language to explain the Gospel, then it is way too late to be inventing new parables and new doctrines.

Bob 2 said: So with the Plan of Salvation. Though the Jews failed in their disbelief, the phase of the OC/OT was necessary to be fulfilled by the life of the butterfly, or in the analogy, Christ becoming the transformed butterfly.

Tom said: The Butterfly analogy does not work for the Protestant Gospel, nor is Christ to be compared to an insect. Stick to the facts of the Gospel Story and resist the temptation to make up new parables to explain what you don’t understand. Do not insert myth and fiction in the Gospel record so that you can promote false doctrine.

Bob 2 said: With a New Covenant comes a new law,

Tom said: Jesus did not repudiate the Moral law; rather, he subordinated it to his Gospel teaching.

Moreover, your short list of texts does not in any way support what NCT teaches. You have overlooked many Gospel passages where Jesus teaches his reformed Sabbath. But they are still there, a memorial to your error; they will stand as testimony against you on the judgment day.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Bob 2 said: There is nowhere in the Word of God that demands that the Sabbath or a holy day will be part of the New Covenant.

Tom said: It is clear that you have not read the Sabbath teachings of Christ, the self-proclaimed Lord of the Sabbath. While Jesus does not teach the OC Sabbath of Moses, he does teach an active and reformed 7th day Sabbath for the church, which enraged the legalistic Jews. Deny this at your own risk and pretend whatever you want. But the facts are clear for those that honestly seek truth and Eternal Life.

Bob 2 said: The only obligation of the Christian in the regard to worship and assembly as believers is found here in scripture:

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Tom said: Why do you overlook the scores of passages in the Gospels where Christ explains, promotes, and defends his NC view of the Sabbath? Why do you think the unnamed author of Hebrews is a better source to understand the NC Sabbath than Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath?

Bob, believe whatever you want. But your views have been reduced to sand. NCT is based on myth and error, and you have said nothing to change this fact. You are in denial of Jesus’ Sabbath teaching, which places you in the company of Christ’s enemies, not his friends.

Bob 2 said: One last statement before leaving Chapters 11 and 12. Tom Wells tries to be kind in addressing his friend Richard Barcellos' concerns about NCT. He is a Reformed Baptist minister, and both have Calvin to explain in their beliefs. However in closing these two chapters, Barcellos is left with his one dimensional view of the OC and the NC. His belief is the Decalogue is more than the center of the OC. Wells makes it clear that the NC is the transformational butterfly, and the OC is the caterpillar phase of the butterfly's life. TRANSFORMATIONAL!!!!

Tom said: Neither Jesus or the apostles associated the Gospel with caterpillars or butterflies. So why do it? There is no point in making up new parables or new doctrines. Stop following religious professionals, and start following Jesus, the greatest of all theologians.

Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

Bob 2 said: Let me make this one last quote from Chapter 12 by Tom Wells:

“...that the OT is indeed an ethical canon along with the New, but only when the full light of Christ's fulfillment is shed on it.”

Tom said: There is no need for any Christian to focus on the OT. The Gospel is only found in the NT, not the OT. Once you become an expert of the Gospel teachings of Christ, then you may learn from the OT, but not before.

We are to focus on Jesus in the Gospels. Here is the true Gospel source for Eternal Life and salvation. Not the OT. There is no Gospel salvation in the OC for anyone today. So why go there? Go to the NT.

Bob 2 said: One's hermeneutic (a method or principle of interpretation ) of the whole Bible comes into play at this point. What is God trying to reveal to us, in each Testament?

Tom said: Stop living in the OC. The Gospel is located in the NT; we live in the NC era.

Jesus represents God to mankind, and speaks for him in the Gospels. To listen to Jesus Words, is to hear God and know him. There is no need to go to the OT to learn about God. The God of the Gospel is to be found in the Gospels, not in the OC.

Heb. 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

Heb. 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Heb. 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

The words of Jesus are what count the most. Only he can save us through the Gospel. Thus we had better make sure we are carefully understanding and following his NC words, which include what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: Are we consistent in our dealing with the WHOLE story that is the OT plus the NT. If we are not consistent, we will not get God's message and way of saving man. Important??? Most Certainly!!!!

Tom said: The Gospel is God’s message, preached by Christ and written down in the Gospels for our edification and salvation. Let all that seek Gospel Truth, including the truth about the Sabbath, go to Jesus in the Gospels and learn from him. Do not go to Moses or anyone else in the OT. That is a misguided waste of time that will only lead to confusion.

It is time for all to get serious about Jesus’ Gospel, which includes what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath.

The great tribulation is closer than ever, even as we all inevitably march to the grave, to await the Judgment Day of the 2nd Coming. Our only hope is the authentic Gospel of Christ.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

bob_2 · 03-08-14 5:43 pm

Moving on to Chapter 13 of New Covenant Theology, "The Sabbath a Test Case".

Fred Zaspel opens the chapter with this :

It may be an oversimplification to say that disagreements regarding the subject of divine law are all settled on the question of the Sabbath. Then again, perhaps in some sense this is no oversimplification at all. It is common knowledge that disputes concerning the subject of divine law eventually and almost inevitably make their way to this subject and often with considerable energy. Moreover, much of what has been discussed in this book regarding the anticipatory function of the law of Moses would--at least could--find wide acceptance on all sides of today's theological fences. Even with this much agreement, the question of the Sabbath remains. Did the Sabbath have a similar forward look? If not, why not? If so, does it also retain its former shape and significance? What transformation, if any, has the Sabbath undergone with the coming of Christ? And what warranted such changes.
The Sabbath question is admittedly complex and problematic, and it would be rash to claim to have settled the matter for all concerned. This chapter will offer an attempt to demonstrate that the Sabbath need be treated no differently and no different hermeneutic than the one expounded throughout this book and which is commonly employed in the NT treatment of all other aspects of OT law. It can serve as an illustration and test case for the thesis presented thus far....

bob_2 · 03-08-14 6:13 pm

First, usually those holding to the Sabbath as mandated for the Christian, the argument starts that it is a Creation Ordinance. Lets look at the passage that suggests this:

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Notice, the question of how God uses the seventh day He has, "sanctified, blessed" or set aside for a special use:

Exodus 31:12 Then the Lord said to Moses, 13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.
14 “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. 15 For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”
18 When the Lord finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.

What else is significant here:

1. Did God need REST and REFRESHMENT - No, the meaning here is one of "rest of accomplishment , the rest of satisfaction. ... The creation narrative climaxes in God's contentment."

2. There was no morning or evening of the seventh day. Could His, God's Rest, be referring to something else. Read this whole passage before you answer:

Hebrews 3:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

“So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: “On the seventh day God rested from all his works.” 5 And again in the passage above he says, “They shall never enter my rest.”
6 Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience, 7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Could it be the REST God is offering in this passage is something more significant than a one day in seven rest?? Could it be Salvation, man's Redemption from sin???? After all that is the only way man will ultimately be able to join God in His rest in heaven, is it not???

"For if Joshua had given them rest...." by entering the promised land or keeping the Sabbath day, what is God talking about a remaining Sabbath. It can not be a mere 24 hour period of time!!!

Last edited by bob_2 (03-08-14 8:20 pm)

bob_2 · 03-15-14 11:16 pm

It is suggested in this chapter that God's rest was one of accomplishment. Creation has as it's goal the Divine Rest. When Adam and Eve sinned, they gave up that REST with God, for the curse of work and childbearing. No rest from this is shown until Exodus 16 and the Manna story then Sinai and the giving of the formal Ten Commandments. But at no time before this time to we see God punishing any of His followers or Gentiles for not "keeping the Sabbath". Only after the Exodus, and only imposed on the Jews/Israelites.

Some have suggested, that "Remember" demonstrates a Creation Ordinance. The directive to remember does not connote that something existed beforehand, just that they should remember the blessing, or command given to them or face the consequences.

Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses.

This suggests no previous knowledge of the Children of Israel of the Sabbath of God or a Command to keep 1 in 7 holy. Man was under the curse of Adam to work by the sweat of his brow. No where does it talk of Noah, Abraham, Lot, Jacob or any other Bible characters before Egypt being instructed to keep the Sabbath or punished for not keeping it.

Last edited by bob_2 (03-16-14 9:28 pm)

bob_2 · 03-16-14 9:44 pm

It has been suggested by some that Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath," meant the following:

1. That the Sabbath that Jesus spoke of was a Reformed Sabbath and he meant it for both Jew and Gentile, all mankind. This is impossible, because the Sabbath was the center of the covenant to the Jews that showed uniquely they were God's chosen people conditional to their obedience.

2. Rather it is cautionary, not to raise the Sabbath to "a place of tyranny over man". It was a gift to the overworked Jew. At Christ's time it had become polluted with the Pharisaical laws and had become a tyranny rather than a day of rest.

3. The Rest of the Sabbath has a spiritual meaning shown in this command of Jesus :

Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

4. Rest for the Soul is forgiveness, reconciliation, salvation, and redemption. The Sabbath is anticipatory of these and points to these being a fulfillment or reality of the Sabbath in the New Covenant/ Kingdom of God. Col 2:16-17

Last edited by bob_2 (03-16-14 9:47 pm)

bob_2 · 03-21-14 11:46 pm

Recently I heard someone suggest that Jesus reformed the Sabbath, made new rules to keep it, and that became the new Reformed Sabbath of the New Covenant. Reasons why this is a "tall tale":

1. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath: He is more important than the Sabbath or the Temple. Matthew 12 tells the story of David and his friends in desperate hunger excused for eating the holy Shewbread of the Temple, and Jesus pointing out that one more important than the Temple was standing before them as the Lord of the Sabbath.
2. Did Jesus break the Sabbath - No, the times had changed since the desert Sinai economy where inactivity on the Sabbath was expected. As culture changed, the Pharisees tried to fill the void with their manmade laws for keeping the Sabbath. Jesus kept the Sabbath by the letter and spirit of the law. The words REST and WORK were some times defined by those with evil intent. The only rules of Rest and Work violated were those of the Pharisees. Note what Jesus says about His Father and His "work":

John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

3. The Sabbath, as with the whole OC/OT did, pointed in anticipation to the NC/NT and Jesus specifically. Note:

Matthew 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Note D. A. Carson's words from "Jesus and the Sabbath in the Four Gospels:

"This does not mean that Jesus here actually breaks the Sabbath or overrides it, at least as far as Torah is concerned, but it does mean He claims authority to do so, and in a sense questions the Pharisees' right to question Him."

To the loyal Christian that holds, that God is an unchanging God and the Ten Commandments are His Eternal Divine Law, look again. The fourth commandment mentions creation of man (Exodus 20) and deliverance from Egypt (Deut 5). These are unique to the Jews. As they rejected the Messiah, Jesus, the message went to the Gentiles with changes that became Christ's Law:

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

4. What is God's Law and Christ's Law - This is Divine Eternal Law that would be what all creatures on this earth and other earths would have to abide by. The story of Earth and how God dealt with man, who was in His image is unique to the Universe and ought not to be misunderstood or purveyed to create misunderstanding. To the new Christian, no more than the salvific tenets should be preached to him/her, and not any man made doctrine.

5. New Covenant Change - Each Christian should understand what happened at the cross, what was changed, expanded on or new. What was anticipated and what fulfilled. Teaching salvation to others clearly depends on this understanding.

6. Pray for discernment as you study the New Covenant/Testament. Jesus said to his disciples:

John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

and

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

In this way, the Sabbath Rest, is actually the message of Salvation, resting from our working to be saved, that Jesus did on the cross for us, "repentance for the forgiveness of sins" is the Gospel message, with no tack ons.

Last edited by bob_2 (03-22-14 12:05 am)

tom_norris · 04-05-14 1:24 pm

Bob 2 said: Moving on to Chapter 13 of New Covenant Theology, "The Sabbath a Test Case".

Fred Zaspel said: It may be an oversimplification to say that disagreements regarding the subject of divine law are all settled on the question of the Sabbath. Then again, perhaps in some sense this is no oversimplification at all. It is common knowledge that disputes concerning the subject of divine law eventually and almost inevitably make their way to this subject and often with considerable energy.

Tom Norris replied: Agreed. Those that have a false view of the NC Sabbath, also have a false view of the Gospel and the Law of Christ. They also misunderstand how the Two Covenants function. When the Gospel is fully and correctly understood, - so too the doctrine of the Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: First, usually those holding to the Sabbath as mandated for the Christian, the argument starts that it is a Creation Ordinance. Lets look at the passage that suggests this:

Tom said: There is no debate that the 7th day Sabbath is part of the Jewish Creation Story. It is a waste of time to pretend otherwise. Those that do so are playing word games so that they can refute what Christ teaches.

Bob 2 said: It is suggested in this chapter that God's rest was one of accomplishment.

Tom said: Correct. God was not resting because he was tired. He created the 7th day as a memorial to his power, authority, and ownership over the world and cosmos. Thus the number 7 is special in Judaism, and the 7th day Sabbath a sign of their Covenant with their creator God.

Bob2 said: Creation has as it's goal the Divine Rest.

Tom replied: WRONG! The goal of creation was good works, not rest. Christians are called to action, to work, not to rest.

Matt. 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

1Tim. 6:18 Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

Jesus does not, not, not, teach a resting Sabbath. Nor does he associate the 7th day with rest, - divine or otherwise. In fact, Jesus specifically refutes this Jewish idea that God rests on the 7th day. Thus there is no “divine rest.” You need to repent of this nonsense.

Bob 2 said: When Adam and Eve sinned, they gave up that REST with God, for the curse of work and childbearing.

Tom said: Again, you are inventing myth. The object of life in the Garden of Eden was not to rest; it was to work. WORK. Sin is much more than the lack of rest, which is not even a definition of sin.

Bob 2 said: No rest from this is shown until Exodus 16 and the Manna story then Sinai and the giving of the formal Ten Commandments. But at no time before this time to we see God punishing any of His followers or Gentiles for not "keeping the Sabbath". Only after the Exodus, and only imposed on the Jews/Israelites.

Tom said: The OC Sabbath doctrine begins with Judaism, not with Adam and Eve. I agree there was no OC Sabbath law before the giving of the Law to the Jews. In other words, Adam and Eve were never under any law that required them to rest and not work on the 7th day, which day they acknowledged as special for God and man.

Bob 2 said: Some have suggested, that "Remember" demonstrates a Creation Ordinance.

Tom said: The Torah is clear that the 7th day Sabbath is part of the Jewish creation story. There is no use in pretending otherwise.

Bob 2 said: Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them your holy Sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses. This suggests no previous knowledge of the Children of Israel of the Sabbath of God or a Command to keep 1 in 7 holy.

Tom said: The OC Sabbath started with the Jews. Not before. Adam and Eve were taught an active 7th day Sabbath, which is what Jesus teaches in the first century.

Bob 2 said: Man was under the curse of Adam to work by the sweat of his brow. No where does it talk of Noah, Abraham, Lot, Jacob or any other Bible characters before Egypt being instructed to keep the Sabbath or punished for not keeping it.

Tom said: Those who lived before the giving of the Law, did not have an OC doctrine of the Sabbath to observe. The SDA’s are in error. Stop embracing their many errors; it will not lead to the Gospel.

Bob 2 said: It has been suggested by some that Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath," meant the following:

1. That the Sabbath that Jesus spoke of was a Reformed Sabbath and he meant it for both Jew and Gentile, all mankind. This is impossible; because the Sabbath was the center of the covenant to the Jews that showed uniquely they were God's chosen people conditional to their obedience.

Tom said: What you think is impossible, is not. Jesus teaches an active, NC Sabbath in the Gospels for all to see. Those who deny this are blind.

Bob 2 said: 2. Rather it is cautionary, not to raise the Sabbath to "a place of tyranny over man". It was a gift to the overworked Jew. At Christ's time it had become polluted with the Pharisaical laws and had become a tyranny rather than a day of rest.

Tom said: The Gospel facts cannot be changed. Jesus teaches a Gospel Sabbath for both Jew and Gentile in the church.

Bob 2 said: 3. The Rest of the Sabbath has a spiritual meaning shown in this command of Jesus :

Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Tom said: Jesus has much to say about the 7th day Sabbath. It is clear you are not familiar with his Sabbath teachings, nor do you want to learn. So be it. Your sad fate is of your own making.

Bob 2 said: 4. Rest for the Soul is forgiveness, reconciliation, salvation, and redemption. The Sabbath is anticipatory of these and points to these being a fulfillment or reality of the Sabbath in the New Covenant/ Kingdom of God. Col 2:16-17

Tom replied: The Sabbath is first and foremost a doctrine about the creation of the world, - before there was any sin. It is not “anticipatory” whatsoever, much less something to be fulfilled by Christ. Sorry.

Bob 2 said: Recently I heard someone suggest that Jesus reformed the Sabbath, made new rules to keep it, and that became the new Reformed Sabbath of the New Covenant.

Tom replied: Bob, that was me! No need to talk in riddles. Tom Norris has done far more than just “suggest” that Jesus “reformed” the Sabbath. The Gospels are clear that this is exactly what Jesus did for all to see.

Bob 2 said: Reasons why this is a "tall tale":

1. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath: He is more important than the Sabbath or the Temple.

Tom replied: Your reason makes no sense, nor does it refute the fact that Jesus teaches an active and reformed, 7th day Sabbath for the church in all four Gospels.

Bob 2 said: 2. Did Jesus break the Sabbath - No, the times had changed since the desert Sinai economy where inactivity on the Sabbath was expected. As culture changed, the Pharisees tried to fill the void with their manmade laws for keeping the Sabbath.

Tom replied: First, how can Jesus obeying the Sabbath help out your argument? It would seem to cut against your view that there is no Sabbath.

Second, the SDA’s teach Jesus obeyed the 7th day Sabbath and therefore we must follow his example. They are wrong. So why do you support their false view?

Third, Jesus was the greatest of all Sabbath breakers. This is why the Jews sent him to the cross. To deny this fact, is to deny the Gospel Story.

Bob 2 said: Jesus kept the Sabbath by the letter and spirit of the law.

Tom replied: Wrong. Jesus refused to keep the Sabbath holy by either the letter of the law or its “spirit,” which was to do NO WORK.

Ex. 31:15 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is a sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD; whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Bob 2 said: The words REST and WORK were some times defined by those with evil intent. The only rules of Rest and Work violated were those of the Pharisees.

Tom said: Wrong! The Law required “complete” rest. NO WORK, No Healing, no preaching the Gospel on the 7th day, etc., etc.

Bob 2 said: Note what Jesus says about His Father and His "work":

John 5:16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

Tom said: This passage does not support your views whatsoever. Here Jesus is giving the reason why he is breaking the Sabbath. Here Jesus admits to breaking the law against work on the 7th day and claims that God is also a Sabbath breaker. Keep reading and see how the Jews reacted.

John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

Bob 2 said: 3. The Sabbath, as with the whole OC/OT did, pointed in anticipation to the NC/NT and Jesus specifically.

Tom replied: The Sabbath is about the Creation of the world. It is not a doctrine that can be fulfilled by Christ, even though he created it, which is why he is the Lord of the Sabbath. This myth that Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath is absurd and without any foundation whatsoever.

Bob 2 said: Note D. A. Carson's words from "Jesus and the Sabbath in the Four Gospels:

"This does not mean that Jesus here actually breaks the Sabbath or overrides it, at least as far as Torah is concerned, but it does mean He claims authority to do so, and in a sense questions the Pharisees' right to question Him."

Tom replied: First, Carson is wrong about many things, but I note that he does not claim Jesus “fulfilled” the Sabbath.

Second, his take here makes no sense. The Gospels are clear that Jesus broke the 4th Commandment by working on the 7th day. It is pointless to refute what is so plain and clear in the NT.

Bob 2 said: 4. What is God's Law and Christ's Law - This is Divine Eternal Law that would be what all creatures on this earth and other earths would have to abide by. The story of Earth and how God dealt with man, who was in His image is unique to the Universe and ought not to be misunderstood or purveyed to create misunderstanding. To the new Christian, no more than the salvific tenets should be preached to him/her, and not any man made doctrine.

Tom said: Too much double-talk here. Christ teaches a reformed, active, 7th day Sabbath for the church. Period. You have not shown otherwise.

Bob 2 said: 5. New Covenant Change - Each Christian should understand what happened at the cross, what was changed, expanded on or new. What was anticipated and what fulfilled. Teaching salvation to others clearly depends on this understanding.

Tom said: It is clear you do not understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. Nor do you want to learn from the Gospels. Sad.

Bob 2 said: 6. Pray for discernment as you study the New Covenant/Testament. Jesus said to his disciples:

John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Tom said: This passage in no way refutes or removes what Christ teaches about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: In this way, the Sabbath Rest, is actually the message of Salvation, resting from our working to be saved, that Jesus did on the cross for us, "repentance for the forgiveness of sins" is the Gospel message, with no tack ons.

Tom said: Wrong. There is no Sabbath rest this side of heaven. Christians are to work, not rest.

John 9:4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

Matt. 5:16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Conclusion:

Jesus has much to say and teach about his reformed and active 7th day Sabbath in all four Gospels. Those who refuse to pay attention and refuse to understand or believe what Christ teaches about this doctrine, will be lost. Why? Because they refuse to embrace the Gospel teachings of Christ. Just like the OC Jews that made the very same mistake about the Gospel Sabbath.