Everything that does not come from faith is sin

bob_2 · 04-30-13 1:50 am

Is this last part of a sentence a statement of our principle and standards to live by? If we keep the Sabbath but not out of faith it is sin?? If we pay tithe without faith it is sin, an attempt to buy your way to heaven???

Is the Sabbath one of those issues that Romans 14 cautions us as Christians?

Romans 14:1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters.

Is the Sabbath a "disputable matter"?

tom_norris · 05-01-13 1:31 pm

The Gospel is to be kept by faith, not the Sabbath. Those who think it sinful to work on the Sabbath, have a "distorted" and wrong view of the Gospel. Only the Gospel is salvific, not the OC or NC doctrines of the Sabbath.

As for tithe, anyone who pays tithe, does not understand the Gospel correctly. They are stuck in the OC, thinking they must please God by their works and behavior for salvation. They also think the church is divided into different classes of people, whereby the leaders and pastors are special and are treated like the Levites. This is absurd and outrageous. It is not NC theology whatsoever.

While the Sabbath seems like it should be up for debate, it is not. Christ has a clear and specific teaching about the NC Sabbath. All must follow his view, and thus there should be no debate about the day or the doctrine. To the extent there is debate, it is a debate over the Gospel, not the Sabbath.

There is only one Gospel and one Gospel Sabbath for the church.

Tom Norris for New Covenant Adventism

bob_2 · 05-15-13 2:40 pm

Tom Norris said:

While the Sabbath seems like it should be up for debate, it is not. Christ has a clear and specific teaching about the NC Sabbath. All must follow his view, and thus there should be no debate about the day or the doctrine. To the extent there is debate, it is a debate over the Gospel, not the Sabbath.

Please share with us, Tom, where "Christ has a clear and specific teaching about the NC Sabbath." Please be brief, for the benefit of our reduced readership.

Also, tell us why 95% of Christianity gets it wrong and we self proclaim the only ones that got it. That is how to worship and when??? What percent of the Gospel is the NC Sabbath???

Last edited by bob_2 (05-15-13 2:44 pm)

tom_norris · 05-18-13 1:46 pm

Bob, I don’t think you are seeing things clearly. Your hatred of all things Adventist, combined with your obsession for NCT, is fogging your mind. You need to step back and see the larger Gospel picture.

You need to listen to Christ and only follow what he teaches.

Bob 2 asked: Please share with us, Tom, where "Christ has a clear and specific teaching about the NC Sabbath." Please be brief, for the benefit of our reduced readership.

Tom replied: You act as if this is a difficult task. As if Christ did not teach anything “specific” about the Sabbath? He did, as anyone can see that reads the Gospels honestly.

Moreover, there are more people reading about Adventist Reform then ever before. Just look at the large number of hits for the Reformed Sabbath. Even when there is little or no discussion, people are still finding out about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath here and at the All Experts.Com site.

It is only a matter of time before the NC Sabbath becomes a well-known, serious doctrine for those who are honest about following Christ.

Here are some specific Sabbath points that Jesus teaches in the Gospels. When you read these holy sayings, keep in mind that the word “Sabbath,” means the weekly 7th day version. Not Sunday, or the Every Day allegorical doctrine of the confused NCT crowd.

Mark 2:24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

There is no excuse for anyone to miss-understand what Jesus teaches about the Sabbath. This is why we have the Gospels, which contain the authentic words of Christ, including a record of his many Sabbath debates with the Jewish leaders.

Those who think the NC Sabbath is Sunday, or No Day, or Every Day, have only to compare their views with Christ in the Gospels. Such a study will show that Christ teaches none of these views.

The same goes for the SDA’s. Their view of the Sabbath matches up with the enemies of Christ; not with what Jesus teaches.

So the Adventists, like all others, are way off base, standing in a very dangerous position, much like the 1st century Jews who also fought against the Gospel, - and lost.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Jesus teaches that the NC Sabbath, like the world itself, and the Gospel, and the Church, are for all mankind.

Jesus, the creator of the world and the Sabbath, only supports a weekly 7th day Sabbath for the church. This passage is repeated in the other Gospels to make sure it is not missed. How could you miss this fundamental Sabbath teaching?

Jesus is not talking about the OC Sabbath, which was made for the Jews, but the NC Sabbath of which he claimed to be its Lord and protector.

Jesus takes authority over the doctrine of the Sabbath and reforms it into a very different, active doctrine, one that better reflects the Gospel.

Those who claim the Sabbath has been abolished in the NC, or that it is now Sunday, are not following Christ or his Gospel. They are repudiating him.

This goes double for those so foolish as to claim that Christ demands obedience to the 4th commandment. He does not.

In fact, he gives all that follow him an exemption from having to obey the OC Sabbath law. Which means that the SDA’s have the wrong view of the Sabbath. They did manage to get the right day, but so too did the Jews. What good did that do them?

To make matters even more confusing, this newly invented (circa 1970) view about the Every Day Sabbath of spiritual rest is incompatible with the Sabbath teachings of Christ. It is just more diversion that takes people away from the genuine Gospel teachings of Christ.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Jesus is not the Lord of the Every Day Sabbath, because there is no such doctrine. Those who claim this is what Jesus teaches, are walking away from Christ. They are on a false path that has no support from the NT.

Jesus also teaches that those who fail to comprehend his NC Sabbath are blind. In fact, after healing the man born blind on the Sabbath, the sighted man was excommunicated from Judaism. Why? For participating in the sin of Sabbath breaking and defending Jesus theology. However, the healed man determined to follow Jesus, as well as embrace what he teaches about the active, working, 7th day Sabbath. Read the Gospels and learn from this record.

John 9:32 “Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind.

John 9:33 “If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”

John 9:34 They answered him, “You were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us?” So they put him out.

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

John 9:36 He answered, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”

John 9:37 Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.”

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

So here is the question Bob: “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

If so, you must embrace what Jesus teaches about the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, just like in this Gospel Story.

We are the man born blind in this Sabbath story. We too are living in the dark, under the guilt and power of the OC.

We need to be healed by Christ so we can understand his Gospel teachings, including and especially what he teaches about the Sabbath.

All that follow the true Christ, will understand what he teaches about the 7th day weekly Sabbath. They will not care if they are thrown out and condemned by their religious leaders. They will “worship Christ,” the Lord of the NC Sabbath, on the 7th day Sabbath in spite of those who protest. Just like the healed man in the story did. He no longer followed the OC Sabbath laws or what his religious leaders taught. Only what Christ, his new savior teaches.

In the 1st century, the debate about the Sabbath separated those who believed in Christ and those who did not. So it will be today.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

This powerful statement from Jesus is all about the NC Sabbath. This is the context and the meaning. The OC minded can’t understand the Sabbath teachings of Christ. Many choose to remain blind and unsaved, unwilling to learn from Christ and embrace the Gospel.

Bob, I suggest that you read the Gospels to better understand the Sabbath teachings of Christ. Do not be like the faithless Jews who refused to consider that their views could be wrong. That was a fatal mistake.

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?”

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

John 10:2 “But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.

John 10:3 “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

John 10:4 “When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.

John 10:5 “A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”

Jesus teaches that salvation only comes from following the genuine Christ. He can be easily identified by his controversial Sabbath teaching, which led him to the cross for our salvation. Those who embrace other views are not following Christ.

Those who honestly follow Christ will understand and embrace his controversial, 7th day Sabbath teaching. They will not make up new Sabbath days, like Sunday, or claim the Sabbath is now an Every Day spiritual doctrine. Nor will they follow the enemies of Christ, like the SDA’s have done, by embracing the Sabbath of Moses.

It is time for the church to wake up and grow up. It is time for Gospel Reform within the Adventist Community.

Bob 2 said: Also, tell us why 95% of Christianity gets it wrong and we self proclaim the only ones that got it.

Tom said: First off, NCT is the one claiming that all others are wrong, and that they alone have solved the Sabbath debate with this absurd doctrine about an Every Day spiritual Sabbath. So you have this backwards.

Second, the entire church, starting with Jesus and the apostles, has always had a weekly, NC Sabbath. This is correct. The fact that Sunday was an error is beside the point. The Church has always practiced a weekly, NC Sabbath. Your attempt to claim there is no such weekly doctrine is absurd and against the Gospel record and practice of the church.

Third, at the end of time, there will be a Gospel reformation in the church. At that time, the Gospel will be fully preached, including the reformed, controversial, NC Sabbath of Christ.

This new and well documented NT doctrine will shame every church in the land, exposing them all, including the SDA’s, as having a false and “wretched” Gospel. All will need to repent and stop pretending they have no Gospel error. Thus the last church will be confronted and divided over the Gospel Sabbath of Christ just like in the 1st century.

Bob 2 said: That is, how to worship and when???

Tom said: The church is to meet every 7th day to worship God and learn of Christ. However, all are also free to work on this day, as Christ teaches over and over in the Gospels. It is not an OC Day of forced rest and guilt but a NC day of Freedom, salvation, and joy.

Bob 2 said: What percent of the Gospel is the NC Sabbath???

Tom said: Without doing a detailed study, I would estimate that 20% of Jesus teaching is about the Sabbath. But even this is misleading because Jesus used the Sabbath, every week, as a demonstration of the Gospel. It was such a hot point of contention, it was the reason Jesus was sent to the cross.

In fact, Jesus could not preach the Gospel without reforming the Sabbath. The two go together. Which is why Jesus claimed such authority over the Sabbath, defending and promoting his unique view that took everyone by surprise.

So it will be again.

The 7th day Gospel Sabbath stunned and infuriated the religious leaders; this will happen again. Starting with the SDA’s, who at least discovered the correct day. That is more than most have done. Now it is time for the Adventists to go all the way to complete Sabbath Reform and proclaim the Gospel more fully and correctly.

Those who refuse to believe what Christ teaches about the NC Sabbath, are not true followers. They are only pretending. Only those that are honest about following Christ will be obtain Eternal Life. Do you understand?

John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Rom. 11:8 just as it is written,

“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,

EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,

DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for the NC Sabbath of Christ

bob_2 · 05-19-13 2:53 am

We spend more time talking, or at least Tom, on a day instead of

Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.:

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

What is the ultimate goal of a Christian? Peace and Rest and that is given by Jesus fulfilling the 4th Commandment.

Last edited by bob_2 (05-19-13 2:56 am)

tom_norris · 05-19-13 5:07 pm

Bob, it seems you are determined to maintain your false views at any cost. What is the point of such a strategy? Why fight against the clear teachings of Christ?

Bob 2 asked: What is the ultimate goal of a Christian?

Tom replied: Eternal Life, by Faith alone, in the teachings of Christ.

Bob 2 said: Peace and Rest and that is given by Jesus fulfilling the 4th Commandment.

Tom said: Jesus did not obey the OC Sabbath law of the Jews, much less fulfill it. In fact, he was the greatest Sabbath breaker in the history of Judaism, which is why he was sent to the cross. So your theory is falling apart.

Jesus came to preach the Gospel, which includes his active and reformed, NC Sabbath, which had nothing to do with rest.

Jesus preached a different Sabbath where good works are featured and the 4th commandment regulations against work were ignored by his instruction and authority.

How the church could have missed this Sabbath doctrine all these years is stunning. It proves they are not even reading the Gospels, much less paying close attention to what Jesus teaches.

The SDA’s are the worst offenders. They do not follow the active Sabbath of Christ, nor do they even know such a NC doctrine exists. They teach that Christ supports the OC Sabbath of Moses, which is utter nonsense. He does no such thing and they should be ashamed of themselves for teaching such obvious error and blasphemy.

Bob, how does one “fulfill” a law they are breaking? They don’t. Jesus did not fulfill the OC Sabbath, nor was he supposed to do this, (if such a thing can even be accomplished). He reformed the Sabbath for the church.

Jesus created the NC Gospel Sabbath. It is called the Lord’s Day in the NT. This is the correct, 7th day Sabbath for the church. It is very different from what the OC minded SDA’s teach, or what the Sunday keepers practice.

The NC Sabbath, which Christ promoted from the beginning of his ministry, can only be embraced at the expense of the OC Sabbath. The former must be repudiated, at least in part, so that the latter can be embraced.

The OC Sabbath is replaced by Christ’s NC Sabbath doctrine.

You need to stop quoting Paul’s remarks about the law or the Sabbath until you understand what Jesus, the Lord of the NC Sabbath, teaches about the Gospel Sabbath.

Paul does not give Eternal Life to anyone. Nor is he the Lord of the Sabbath, or the Judge of anyone, Christ is. All must follow Christ if they want Eternal Life.

1Cor. 1:13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

The NC Sabbath, which Paul defends in Col 2: 16, is not being abolished as many foolishly claim. This passage in no way helps those who fight against the NC Sabbath of Christ.

As for Ephesians, this passage does not remove the NC doctrine of the Sabbath as taught by Christ in the Gospels. If you think so, you need to take a "time out" and do some serious Bible study. You need to actually read the Gospels and learn about the theology of Jesus.

Jesus is the foundation of our faith, not Paul. What Christ teaches about the Sabbath, is what all must embrace.

1Cor. 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one, which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If you want to understand the Gospel Sabbath, you must go directly to Christ in the Gospels, and learn from him. Until you do this, you will never understand the Gospel, or the NC Sabbath correctly.

Bob, your Gospel views are far too convoluted and hostile to be of any value. (In other words, no Eternal Life). It is clear that you reject the words of Christ about his favorite doctrine, which is the reformed and active, NC Sabbath. So be it.

The choice to follow the Gospel is a personal one, and only a few will ever understand and be saved. Sad, but true.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

All those who refuse to understand Jesus’ Gospel Sabbath have nonetheless been called to Eternal Life. However, they will not be chosen. Why? Because they refuse to hear the Words of Christ and be saved. They are ashamed of Jesus’ theology, which they have chosen to ignore or change. Big mistake.

Luke 9:26 “For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Let all that choose to follow the genuine Christ, - do so without further delay and double-talk.

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Bob, I hope this helps, but I think you may be too far-gone. Sad.

Tom Norris for the NC Sabbath of Christ

bob_2 · 05-28-13 6:31 pm

Tom, remember a US Congressman from St. Louis, Todd Akin who blew his reelection with his "legitimate rape"remark. Well this guy said this in his Sunday School that if a Sunday Law was presented to the House he would vote for the "Christian Sabbath" to be enforced.

Tom you continue to make idiotic statements similar to this guy. You are an army of one. You can not show the army that believes as you do on the Reformed Sabbath and can not show that Jesus taught it while he was on Earth. When Gospel is understood, it is pure, no amendments like a Reformed Sabbath, because Jesus is the "Sabbath" rest. New Covenant Theology if studied by the SDA church could be the first to break down the barrier that separates the two camps of Saturday and Sunday worship and get on with preaching the pure Gospel.

tom_norris · 05-29-13 2:16 pm

Bob 2 said: Tom, remember a US Congressman from St. Louis, Todd Akin who blew his reelection with his "legitimate rape" remark.

Tom said: We are not discussing politics, but the Gospel. You need to respond to the points that have been made, or repent of your false views.

Bob 2 said: Well this guy said this in his Sunday School that if a Sunday Law was presented to the House he would vote for the "Christian Sabbath" to be enforced.

Tom said: So what? Who cares what some right wing nut job thinks about anything? Unless this guy is an apostle or theologian, why quote him?

Just think of it; if gays have the constitutional right to marry, -how can there be a National Day of worship forced on the citizens of America? Do you see how impossible that would be?

Democracy and freedom are not compatible with Sunday laws. So there is no such possibility. At least not until the time of trouble when Marshall Law will be invoked; then there will be no rights any longer for anyone. But for now, forget about it. Sunday laws do not start the time of trouble. That is more SDA error and false doctrine.

The Tribulation
http://www.atomorrow.net/fluxbb/viewtopic.php?id=768

Bob 2 said; Tom you continue to make idiotic statements similar to this guy. You are an army of one.

Tom replied: Ha! It is those who claim Jesus teaches an Every Day Sabbath of spiritual rest that are the true idiots. Such a view has no basis in the NT and it will never have any basis.

NCT is utter nonsense and fiction. Those so uneducated or desperate to embrace such doubletalk are making fools of themselves. They are also spitting in the face of Christ, repudiating Eternal Life.

Moreover, true doctrine is not determined by how many believe. Jesus was a true “army of one.” Few believed him. Regardless, see how his Gospel changed the world. Truth is not bound by error, nor will those who follow the blind ever understand the Gospel correctly. Only a minority will see the Gospel and be saved. Most will not.

Matt. 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Bob 2 said: You can not show the army that believes as you do on the Reformed Sabbath and can not show that Jesus taught it while he was on Earth.

Tom said: Today, those who are honest of heart will go to Jesus and learn about his Gospel Sabbath. They will carefully read his Gospel words and embrace his NC Sabbath instruction. Period.

All will be judged by our response to Jesus’ teachings, even as we will all have to explain our view of the Gospel to Christ himself.

John 12:46 “I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness.

John 12:47 “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Rom. 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

Are you ready to explain your Sabbath views to Christ? Your life will depend on it. But all you will have to say is double-talk. He is going to know that you were not paying serious attention to his words. You will not fool Christ or anyone who knows the Gospel.

Bob 2 said: When the Gospel is understood, it is pure, no amendments like a Reformed Sabbath, because Jesus is the "Sabbath" rest.

Tom said: The genuine Gospel includes the NC, reformed Sabbath of Christ. This doctrine is not about rest, but activity. Those not aware of this theological fact, have embraced a false Gospel and a worthless Christ.

Bob, what is the point of embracing false doctrine? Don’t you understand that you will be judged by the words of Christ? Which includes what he teaches about the NC Sabbath?

What do you think will happen at the Judgment when you explain to Christ that you embrace this Every Day Sabbath doctrine that was invented in the 1970’s?

Do you think this will make Jesus happy, as he blesses you with Eternal Life? If so, think again.

Luke 19:22 “He *said to him, ‘By your own words I will judge you, you worthless slave.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell — and great was its fall.”

Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;

Let all pay careful attention to what Christ teaches. To do otherwise is very foolish and fatal.

Bob 2 said: New Covenant Theology if studied by the SDA church could be the first to break down the barrier that separates the two camps of Saturday and Sunday worship and get on with preaching the pure Gospel.

Tom said: The SDA’s have a real history and a legitimate Protestant pedigree. They developed from the American Baptists, Methodists, and others, even as they made a major contribution to the theological progress of the church. NCT has no such history or pedigree. It is not a denomination or a doctrine of any denomination. It is only a very bad idea that was dreamed up in the 1970’s to attack the Sabbath.

NCT is not serious theology or doctrine. It is a trite and superficial teaching that is perfect for those too angry or arrogant to learn the Gospel from Christ. It is for those who are blind to the words of Christ and angry with the OC minded SDA’s.

When the “pure” Gospel is preached; so too the REFORMED 7th day Gospel Sabbath of Christ, the true Lord’s Day for the church. Those who think otherwise are following a distorted and incorrect Gospel. They are following a false Christ.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath of Christ

bob_2 · 06-03-13 2:34 am

Tom, just wanted you to know I worshiped Saturday at this church: http://www.gracestl.org/ Scroll down on the right to "Welcome to Grace" and watch the video.

Last edited by bob_2 (06-03-13 2:36 am)

tom_norris · 06-03-13 3:18 pm

Bob 2 said: Tom, just wanted you to know I worshiped Saturday at this church:

http://www.gracestl.org/

Scroll down on the right to "Welcome to Grace" and watch the video.

Tom said: Good for you! That was not so painful was it? I assume the Gospel Story and the teachings of Christ were presented, and that the music was uplifting and full of grace.

However, I hope you worshipped in the proper frame of mind?

That is, - I hope you acknowledged (to yourself, and to God) that you were embracing the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath of Christ. Not just worshipping on Saturday for the sake of convenience.

Moreover, I hope you went home and did some things that would be sinful if you were a Jew or an OC SDA. Like going out to a restaurant or store, or doing some chores at home and then watching a ball game. Such activites are not sinful and are reflected in this new Gospel doctrine that allows freedom from the law of the 4th commandment.

Make no mistake about it: the reformed NC Sabbath of Christ is very different from the SDA doctrine of the Sabbath, which is based on the OC, not on the NC teachings of Christ.

While I could not find the Sabbath doctrine on their website, no doubt this church thinks Sunday is the NC Lord’s day, or perhaps they have also fallen for the Every Day Sabbath nonsense. Many have. But you should be far more informed and advanced. I hope you are begining to better understand the Gospel Sabbath.

Sunday is not the NC Sabbath or the Lord’s Day, nor will it ever be such. Only the 7th day can be the NC Lord’s Day. The Every Day Lord’s Day is also a myth, even worse than Sunday. We should know better today. Especially SDA's.

So Bob, tell us how you felt?

The combination of worshiping God on the 7th day and also working (or playing) on the 7th day is a new and “amazing” doctrine for the church. It will be very confusing to an SDA, even feeling wrong and sinful. But the opposite is true. Those who try to keep the Sabbath holy, like the SDA's, by not working are sinning, because this is not what Jesus teaches whatsoever. Proving they do not embrace the Gospel correctly.

The active Sabbath of Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath, will become a catalyst for the final reformation of the church, separating those who are serious about following Christ from those who are pretending. This is what this doctrine did in the 1st century and it will do so again at the end of time.

Matt. 12:30 “He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

This “new” doctrine about the 7th day underscores how badly every church and denomination, including the SDA’s, has misunderstood the Gospel teachings of Christ. They all need to repent, even as all must go to Christ in the Gospels and learn directly from him.

Those who embrace the active, 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ, are following the true shepherd. They will care nothing for tradition or false doctrine. They only hear the words of Christ, carefully following his teachings.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

Those who understand and embrace the active, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, are showing their respect for the authority of Christ over the law, even as they turn their backs on the many false Christ’s and false prophets that have overtaken the Laodicean Church.

Let all seriously consider the Gospel Sabbath of Christ and REPENT.

Mark 1:15 …Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Tom Norris for the 7th day, NC Sabbath of Christ

bob_2 · 06-04-13 3:22 am

A question I have had for some time. Tom you assume the Gospel has to have a Sabbath Day. Where do you get this if the OC ended and the New Covenant mentions , in fact says the Jesus is our "Sabbath Rest" we can have any time. If you are discouraged on Wednesday afternoon at 2:10 pm. That peace is available to you THEN. You don't have to wait seven days for PEACE. Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath in His flesh. Tom you treat this point tritely and mock it. The meeting of the congregation could be Wednesday evening, or Ssturday evening. How can Jesus be a "sabbath rest" by his ability to forgive sin. After all what is the Christian striving for, what will bring him peace and rest?

How Jesus Fulfills the Law

http://www.calvarychapelsb.com/uploads/ … dcc062.pdf

There was a discontinuity when the OT concluded, and the NT began. If you don't believe that, you believe Covenant Theology instead of New Covenant Theology. Most Adventists do without knowing or thinking about it. Bob 2 said: You can not show the army that believes as you do on the Reformed Sabbath and can not show that Jesus taught it while he was on Earth. Tom, your concept of the Reformed Sabbath doesn't exist over the centuries, you have not shown where the concept comes from and is routed in Jesus words, or Apostles words or Paul's words.

If you don't see there is a New Covenant and a New Law, you are missing the boat as the SDA majority are.

Last edited by bob_2 (06-04-13 3:25 am)

tom_norris · 06-06-13 11:30 am

Bob 2 said: A question I have had for some time. Tom you assume the Gospel has to have a Sabbath Day?

Tom said: No need to assume anything. Jesus teaches that there is a 7th day Sabbath “made for mankind,” of which he is its’ Lord and protector.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

I suggest you read the Gospels and learn about this Gospel Sabbath directly from Christ.

Bob 2 said: Where do you get this, -if the OC ended and the New Covenant mentions, in fact says, that Jesus is our "Sabbath Rest" we can have any time?

Tom said: Jesus teaches the Gospel in the NT for all to see, which includes his reformed Sabbath doctrine. However, contrary to your claim, Jesus never said he is our “Sabbath rest.”

While this sounds like something he might have said, the facts prove otherwise. Thus you are being very dishonest to make such a false point. The Gospel is beyond our manipulation. We must embrace it as it is, not as we assume it to be.

In fact, there are only two mentions of the phrase “Sabbath rest,” in the Bible, and none of them come from Jesus. Nor is there any such doctrine as an Every Day Sabbath in the Bible, as you pretend.

Lev. 25:4 but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard.

Heb. 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Jesus never claims or teaches to be our Sabbath rest. Those who place false doctrines in Jesus’ mouth, and false doctrines in his head, are great blasphemers and fools. Eternal life if for those who can understand Jesus’ teachings and embrace them, including what he teaches about his “amazing” NC, 7th day Sabbath.

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Matt. 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matt. 7:28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;

The only place in the NT, were this phrase “Sabbath Rest” exits, is in Hebrews. It is used to teach the church that there is a NC, 7th day Sabbath doctrine for the church. Thus the doctrine of the Sabbath has not been abolished, nor is it even about the physical rest of not working, at least not in the NC, where the Sabbath is REFORMED for the church, but not eliminated.

Bob 2 said; If you are discouraged on Wednesday afternoon at 2:10 pm. That peace is available to you THEN. You don't have to wait seven days for PEACE.

Tom said: What does this have to do with the Sabbath? Our feelings or problems do not change the creation story or the long history of Judaism. Nor do they have any effect on what Jesus teaches in the Gospels. Doctrine is not based on how we feel on any day, so this line of reasoning is absurd and wrong.

Listen carefully: There is no such phrase or teachings from Jesus about “Sabbath peace or Sabbath rest.” Jesus does not even associate the NC Sabbath with rest, which is a stunning point in and of itself. It is activity and work that he promotes on the 7th day, not rest. This is why he was sent to the cross as a Sabbath breaker.

Bob 2 said: Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath in His flesh. Tom you treat this point tritely and mock it.

Tom replied: Ha! Yes, I do not endorse false or stupid doctrine, and often laugh at it. So, yes; guilty as charged. Sorry.

NCT deserves to be laughed at because it is so absurd and impossible. No wonder the church has never embraced such a false doctrine. It has no basis in the NT, nor would it be practical to build up and sustain the church. It is utter nonsense. Sorry again.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, not the fulfillment of it. You and others need to stop making things up and repent for your false and confused doctrine.

Bob 2 said: The meeting of the congregation could be Wednesday evening, or Saturday evening.

Tom replied: The church can meet every day of the week, and twice on Sunday, but only the 7th day can be the NC Sabbath of Christ. Period.

OC and NC Israel each have a doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath, but they are very different doctrines.

Bob 2 stated: How can Jesus be a "sabbath rest," by his ability to forgive sin. After all what is the Christian striving for, what will bring him peace and rest?

Tom said: Nowhere does the Bible does teach that Jesus is our “Sabbath Rest?” Jesus never said this, which is why there is no such teaching or doctrine. It is pure fiction and myth.

Why make things up? To support false doctrine? Not a good reason my friend. Stick close to the Gospels. Follow Jesus only.

Bob 2 said: There was a discontinuity when the OT concluded, and the NT began. If you don't believe that, you believe Covenant Theology instead of New Covenant Theology. Most Adventists do without knowing or thinking about it.

Tom said: We have discussed this before, and you lost the point. Are you sure you want to go back to this issue?

Moreover, it is not only the SDA’s that embrace false doctrine. Every church and denomination in the world is full of doctrinal error, starting with the Sabbath. NCT, which is nothing more than crass anti-Sabbatarianism, which is why no denomination has ever embraced it. The church needs a special day to meet in order to survive.

As part of the transition from the OC to the NC, the OC Sabbath was replaced with the NC Sabbath. The fact it later became Sunday is beside the point. Jesus clearly and repeatedly teaches an active, 7th day Sabbath where all can break the 4th commandment and not be guilty. He never taught a Sunday Lord’s day or an Every Day Sabbath, much less an Abolished Sabbath.

You act as if I am speaking fiction when I am only promoting what has been written in the Gospels over and over. Don’t you read the teachings of Christ?

The fact that so many are stunned and shocked to find such a doctrine as the Reformed, 7th day Sabbath is beside the point. It has been in the Gospels, and in the rest of the NT, from the very beginning of the church. Read it and see.

Let all go to the Gospels and learn the NC Sabbath directly from Christ.

Let all be amazed by the Gospel teachings of Christ and repent. Jesus Gospel, and his Gospel Sabbath, are almost too good to be true.

Most SDA’s have no idea about the difference between the Two Covenants, which is why they embrace the error of tithe, and think there are unclean foods today, and think it sinful to work on the 7th day.

The SDA’s are the most confused of all Protestants when it comes to understanding the NC, and it shows. They have confused themselves beyond belief, and you are living proof of this, and so too legions of others that can’t understand the Gospel correctly.

Until the SDA’s, and former SDA’s, confess their errors such as the IJ, tithe, and NCT, etc, they will never understand or be saved.

Bob 2 said: You can not show the army that believes as you do on the Reformed Sabbath and can not show that Jesus taught it while he was on Earth.

Tom said: It is a self-evident fact, in all four Gospels, that Jesus teaches an active and reformed 7th day Sabbath. Read the Gospels and see for yourself. Don’t believe me, believe Christ’s words in the NT!

Bob 2 said: Tom, your concept of the Reformed Sabbath doesn't exist over the centuries, you have not shown where the concept comes from and is routed in Jesus words, or Apostles words or Paul's words.

Tom said: Wow! First off, I have shown that the Gospels contain Jesus’ NC Sabbath, which was much more than a “concept.” You have also been shown the rest of the NT supporting this Gospel doctrine. Closing ones eyes will not change the facts.

However, if you refuse to read Jesus words and believe them, and refuse to read the apostles in the proper context, well, that is your problem. But don’t pretend Jesus Gospel Sabbath doesn’t exist just because it condemns your false view. Such Gospel blindness is what made the Jews so infamous. Why emulate what is so wrong?

Second, the post-apostolic church quickly lost the Gospel and the NC Sabbath. Which is why Sunday became the Gentile version of the Lord’s day and why this day was treated as if it were the OC doctrine of the Sabbath where work was forbidden.

The Reformation restored the Gospel, but not fully or completely, which is why Protestants still embraced a Sunday Lord’s day and why they too, like Rome, taught it sinful to work on the Sabbath. Thus the Puritan Sabbath came to America, spreading more error and confusion about the Gospel.

Truth trumps tradition, and thus the many centuries of error must be corrected. Why? So that the Gospel, and the teachings of Christ, can be more fully and correctly understood, preparing the last church for the 2nd Coming.

Bob 2 said: If you don't see there is a New Covenant and a New Law, you are missing the boat as the SDA majority are.

Tom said: There is a NC; it features the law of Christ, which teachings include the active, reformed, 7th day Sabbath of Christ, aka the Lord’s day.

Those who follow Christ will only embrace what he teaches about the 7th day Sabbath. They will not make up new Sabbath doctrines and pretend they are true.

John 12:48 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Bob, there is no way out for you and the SDA’s except to repent. You of this NCT nonsense; and them for their OC Sabbath of the Jews.

Why keep fighting against Christ? Follow, serve, and respect Christ; don’t fight against his holy words, which include what he teaches about the 7th day Gospel Sabbath.

Mark 8:34 And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

John 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

John 12:26 “If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Luke 6:40 “A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.

The SDA’s have much to lose by following Christ. Just like the 1st century Jewish leaders, who also faced a choice between the Gospel and their tithe-based system of tradition. Like the Jews, the SDA’s are not going to risk their BILLION-Dollar empire by telling the truth, repenting, and following Christ.

When it comes to money, most people, either Jewish or Gentile, choose money over the Gospel, and it is clear that this is what drives the SDA’s today. Money, money, and money.

Luke 16:13 “No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”

Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.

Luke 16:15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

This explains why the typical SDA Pastor cannot be trusted to tell the truth about doctrine or church history. They are paid deceivers, having made a deal, like the 1st century Jews, to be paid and controlled by a religious hierarchy that repudiates the Gospel. They are not free to search for truth, much less teach it if they found it. What good are such hired hands?

But Bob, you have made no such bad deal. You are not a pastor, depending on the SDA’s for your living from the error of tithe. Thus you are free to find truth, and so too many others. Regular people do not make money off religion and thus they should welcome Gospel truth and doctrinal reform, even as they turn their backs on their wicked religious leaders.

Let all go to the Gospels and learn the NC Sabbath directly from Christ.

Let all be amazed by the Gospel teachings of Christ and repent.

Jesus Gospel, and his Gospel Sabbath, are almost too good to be true.

Luke 8:8 As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for the Gospel Sabbath of Christ

Last edited by tom_norris (06-06-13 9:29 pm)

bob_2 · 06-12-13 4:37 pm

As our Savior, he had to keep the Sabbath perfectly, but as the "Lord of the Sabbath" for the New Covenant, he could modify it, or even eliminate it. So we have to read carefully after His Resurrection what He wanted, what his Gospel message contained. If you notice all the Commands of the 10 Commandments were expanded on except the 4th that Jesus continued to liberalize it. Col 2:16, 17 and Heb 4 where "another day", "Today" , 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works," . This has to do with our forgiveness from sin the Christian's ultimate goal.

tom_norris · 06-13-13 1:31 pm

Bob 2 said: As our Savior, he had to keep the Sabbath perfectly,

Tom replied; Wrong. Not only did Jesus not have to obey the Old Covenant Sabbath as you assume, he became famous as a great Sabbath breaker. You would know this fact if you took the time to study the Gospels.

Let all face up to the Gospel facts; Jesus broke the 4th Commandment on a regular basis, even encouraging others to do the same. This is a major reason why he was sent to the cross.

Bob 2 said: but as the "Lord of the Sabbath" for the New Covenant, he could modify it, or even eliminate it.

Tom replied: Jesus modified the OC Sabbath into an active, NC doctrine for the church. (A doctrine unknown to the Adventist Community). He never eliminated the weekly, 7th day Sabbath, nor did he teach Sunday or this myth about an Every Day spiritual Sabbath of rest.

All one has to do is read the Gospels and learn the Gospel Sabbath from Christ. It is that simple.

Bob 2 said: So we have to read carefully after His Resurrection what He wanted, what his Gospel message contained.

Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. You claim you want to “carefully read” the Gospel Story to understand the NC Sabbath. But then you ignore and overlook the Gospels, which are the very source to understand what Jesus teaches about his Reformed Sabbath? (They were all written after the Resurrection).

Do you see the disconnect and hypocrisy? Do you understand that you are choosing to run away from the teachings of Christ, ignoring the four Gospels, so that you can misquote others, with less authority than Christ? All the while pretending that you are honestly searching for the genuine doctrines of Christ, when you are not. You are ignoring and repudiating Christ.

You can’t even bring yourself to quote Jesus’ teachings about the Sabbath. Why? Because he does not in any way support what you embrace. So rather than repent and reform, you try and misquote the NT and justify your false and worthless doctrine. Sad.

If anyone wants to understand the 7th day Gospel Sabbath, they must go to the Gospels and study the words of Jesus, the head theologian and savior of the church. What he teaches is Gospel truth.

Bob 2 said: If you notice, all the Commands of the 10 Commandments were expanded on, except the 4th that Jesus continued to liberalize it.

Tom said: Jesus taught and expounded on all 10 Commandments, giving them a deeper meaning. The Sabbath was no exception. It received more attention than all the others. It was Jesus favorite topic, a living Gospel metaphor every 7th day.

The doctrine of the Sabbath became very “liberalized” by Christ, so much so, that one could be a Roman soldier and also be a Christian. This was not possible if one were a Jew. The Sabbath law prevented any Jew from serving as a soldier. But the early Christians had a different view of the 7th day, which allowed them to work and not be guilty of sin.

Jesus teaches an Active and Reformed, 7th day, Gospel Sabbath, - in all four Gospels. This historical and theological fact cannot be denied. Why you refuse to read the Gospels and admit what is so obvious is a mystery. You seem blind to the Gospel teaching of Christ.

If you notice, you failed to quote one word from Christ about the Sabbath. Rather, you avoid what he teaches in the Gospels so you can run to others to hear what you want to hear.

Bob, until you come to the place in your life where you can honestly face up to the teachings of Christ, you will never understand any doctrines correctly, much less the Sabbath. Until you are prepared to repent of your false views and let the words of Christ enter your mind and control your personal set of beliefs, you will remain blind and confused about the Christian Faith.

Let all go to Christ in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and learn the doctrine of the Gospel Sabbath directly from Jesus.

Let the blind stumble to the Gospels and find doctrinal healing directly from Jesus. What he teaches, is truth for the church today, including his NC view of the Sabbath.

Bob 2 said: Col 2:16, 17 and Heb 4 where "another day", "Today," 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works." This has to do with our forgiveness from sin the Christian's ultimate goal.

Tom replied: First, forgiveness of sins is only possible through Christ. Those who refuse to believe what Christ teaches, do not get forgiveness or Eternal Life. To reject Jesus’ Sabbath teaching is to reject him.

Second, Jesus does not teach a resting or non-working Sabbath. Nor does the NT ever show him resting on the Sabbath when he was alive on earth. Those who think otherwise, like the foolish SDA’s, are only underscoring the fact they don’t know the Gospel Story very well. Which is why they tithe and do so many OC things.

It is obvious that you were a good SDA, back in the day. You have mastered their incoherent art of proof texting, where unrelated passages are used to support false and silly doctrine. Sad.

Your refusal to quote from the words of Christ is telling and fatal. It is clear you do not believe in the person or teaching of Jesus in the Gospels. So be it. That is your choice. But don’t pretend you are following the genuine Christ. You are not. You have embraced a mythical and worthless Jesus, just like the SDA’s.

Let all go to the Gospels and learn the NC Sabbath directly from Christ.

Let all be amazed at the Gospel teachings of Christ and repent.

Jesus’ Gospel, and his Gospel Sabbath, are almost too good to be true.

Luke 8:8 As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris, for New Covenant Adventism

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