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#1 04-18-11 1:03 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Grace Church- St. Louis

I would like to get some opinion from the family at ATomorrow.net. I have not found a church family to gain a since of community and accurate non-divisive doctrine. Check out this Church that I have been attending. They have Saturday and Sunday services. They state that the doctrines that divide Christian are not what they discuss. Like this morning the Senior Pastor talked about the nuts and bolts of Praying to the Holy  Spirit to help with our daily life decisions. Give me some thoughts of their site as well as my above summary of his summary of his sermon today.

http://gracestl.org/?p=1

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#2 04-18-11 1:27 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Grace Church- St. Louis

Bob, this church seems like as good a place as any to try and enjoy some Gospel Community. 

However, if the goal is to find Gospel truth and contemporary, credible, cutting edge, eschatology, you may be very disappointed.

While you mention that they have services on both the 7th and 1st day of the week, what is their doctrine of the Sabbath?  I doubt they teach there are two weekly Sabbaths for the church.  So what is their view of the Sabbath debate? 

What is their view and definition of the Gospel and last day events?  This is the real question that must be asked.  Do they teach Gospel truth or not?  Do they even care?

Moreover, this idea about trying to stay clear of all debates is not only impractical and impossible; it also shows that they would rather embrace error than take the trouble to make sure they have honest and true doctrines.  They seem to stand for a generic version of Christianity.  One, which they define, and all members must accept.

The post Glacier View SDA’s have also taken the same lazy position, which is why they will not enter into any debates or discussions about anything controversial.  In fact, the SDA’s would rather run from the critics pretending the church is fully correct on all points, instead of trying to deal with their obvious errors.  This is why they now promote “Pluralism.”   Because they don’t really care about doctrinal truth, nor do they want to be challenged in any way.  Their goal, like most others, is to grow the church, build up their Empire, and keep the cash flowing.  Truth is whatever they say it is.  This is how most all Laodiceans act.

At the end of time there are only going to be two types of Laodicean Christians; those that face the issues and repent of their false doctrines, and those who refuse, thinking truth is not that clear or important.  This group seems in the later category, just like the SDA’s and most all others. 

If you can have worthwhile community with those who embrace so much false doctrine, go for it. 

If you can live without a rigorous and serious study of the Word, and don’t care about Gospel eschatology, then this church should be fine.

As for this sermon that we are to pray to the Holy Spirit; I can’t find that doctrine in the Bible.  Jesus teaches that we are to pray to God in Jesus’ name; not to the Spirit.  So why would any pastor preach such things that repudiate the clear teachings of Christ? 

Matt. 6:6 “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Matt. 6:7  “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.

Matt. 6:8 “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Matt. 6:9  “Pray, then, in this way:
    ‘Our Father who is in heaven,
    Hallowed be Your name.

Matt. 6:10 ‘Your kingdom come.
    Your will be done,
    On earth as it is in heaven.

We are to “pray in the Spirit”, but not to the Spirit. 

We are to “worship in the Spirit,” but not worship the Spirit. 

We are to “pray and even sing with the Spirit,” but not pray or sing to the Spirit. 

Thus we “walk by the Spirit,” but not pray to it.

Eph. 6:18  With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

Phil. 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

1Cor. 14:15  I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Gal. 5:16  But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Such an error, about such a simple topic, prayer, tells me that this group is very confused about the Gospel, perhaps even incompetent.  No wonder they don’t want any debate about doctrine, they don’t seem to know what they are doing, which means the blind are leading the blind in typical Laodicean fashion.

John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth;

1Tim. 4:1  But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Beware those who pretend to understand and embrace the Word.   They are legion.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

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#3 04-20-11 10:07 am

cadge
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 288

Re: Grace Church- St. Louis

Bob,

I perused Grace's website, and the church worship atmosphere, study and mission involvement are quite similar to Calvary Chapel's that I visit in Chattanooga. It's a great place where the Spirit of love for God and by God towards each other and those they seek to reach is strong and steady, producing a continually growing and fruitful membership. They emphasize strongly that the presence of the Spirit is the wondrous joy of experiencing Christ in us, but it is also the power of salvation to gain victory over unholy impulses, urges and habits of the flesh (Rom 8:13) that we may overcome and sit with Him in His throne (Rev 3:21).

The music is contempory. They don't guilt trip, or beg for money. It's freewill offerings by the movement of the Spirit on ones heart for church maintenance and the various mission endeavors. "The Lord's not after your money, He's after your heart". There are envelopes to put money in on the backs of chairs and a drop box in the foyer of the church, but there is no emphases on  "giving of necessity"/10%, and they don't seek to keep track of the amount given per individual, as some denominations do. One can sign their offering, or "not let their left hand know what their right hand is doing". God is not an extortionist nor an oppressor of the poor. His providence will not be cut off from the faithful.

On praying to the Holy Spirit, I look at it this way:
When Jesus was sent here He came primarily to try to warn and wake up Israel to the time of His visitation as told by the prophets, and to turn their hearts back to become the light of salvation to the world. "I am not sent, but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matt 15:24. ("Salvation is of the Jews") Although, He never turned down an opportunity to bless anyone who sought Him, or any that would hear, His primary mission before the cross was to extend the mercy of God to Israel to bring them to repentance, before He had to proclaim that "The kingdom is taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits there of".

So the verses that Tom Norris gives above to pray to the Father were given by Jesus as He was yet on the Earth. After his resurrection, we see Stephen praying and "Calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus receive my spirit". Since Jesus told the Disciples, after His resurrection and return from the Father, that "All power is given unto me in heaven and earth", it was fitting that Stephen would address Him in prayer. He sits at the "right hand of the Father" sharing the glory and power until all enemies are put under His feet. and then He will turn the privilege back over to the Father so God will "be all and in all" 1Cor 15.(God supreme and in all of us, His vessels/body as was always His first intention for creating us.)

Therefore, praying to Jesus is proper because He has been given all power in heaven and on earth. When the book of Hebrews invites us to now "come boldly before the throne of God that you may receive mercy and grace in time of need" it speaks of the authoritative position from which Jesus reigns with the Father, but Jesus is our mediator (1Tim 2:5) until all enemies are put under His feet. Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant, Heb 8:6, Heb 9:15, Heb 12:24.

So, praying to the Holy Spirit would be confusing to me because the Holy Spirit is the anointing of God, "the hope of glory" Col 1:27 "which is in you" 1Cor 3:16 and 6:19 "of whose temple ye are". Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit, just as He did when He breathed His spirit on the Apostles and on the believers at Pentecost.

The Holy Spirit is the power of God unto salvation by the Gospel for our sanctification. It is the manifestation of God in us as promised. It is our assurance that we are His 1 John 3:24.

So, I pray in the Spirit, but not to the Spirit. To me the Spirit is the power of God radiating out from Him and into those who accept His offer of salvation and choose to be strengthened to follow "The way, the truth and the life" in repentance and submission to His will.

I do not see the Holy Spirit as a person. I am not a trinitarian. Therefore, I visit Calvary chapel, but I do not join. BTW, the SDA pioneers were not trinitarians either. Elaine was right about the belief of the early church.


This is how cadge sees it for now. Cadge is not infallible. He holds his beliefs in a tentative state, and always ready to make adjustments as he learns and compares scripture with scripture and dialogs with those of like intention, and always willing to appreciate others views even if he disagrees because "we see through a glass darkly". So, we need to forbear the differences of others and their denominations, but be careful of those who preach a legalistic salvation by works, or once saved always saved, which renders them of the class of the five virgins that have no oil in their lamps, the Holy Spirit, in order to overcome.

Cadge

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#4 04-20-11 2:21 pm

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Grace Church- St. Louis

Tom and Cadge, have either of you read this text:

John 16:13  But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

The Preacher did not say he prays to the spirit, but that he has a relationship with the Holy Spirit that Christ sent upon His resurrection.

If the Spirit is to lead the Christian in to all truth, there has to be a relationship with the Spirit:

John 16:13
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

If Christ sent the Spirit to do the above, we should have a close relationship since He is part of the Godhead. I agree that we are instructed to pray to the Father thru Jesus, (Though, the Lord's pray does not pray through Jesus but directly to the Father) Let me ask you this, do you pray to your wife? NO, of course not, but you have a deep relationship with her.

How do we get the "guidance into all truth?"

Last edited by bob_2 (04-20-11 2:38 pm)

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#5 04-23-11 12:49 pm

tom_norris
Adventist Reform
From: Silver Spring, Md
Registered: 01-02-09
Posts: 877
Website

Re: Grace Church- St. Louis

Bob 2 said: The Preacher did not say he prays to the spirit, but that he has a relationship with the Holy Spirit that Christ sent upon His resurrection.

Tom said:  Forget this theological double-talk and error about having a relationship with the Holy Spirit.  The Bible does not teach such Pentecostal myth and diversion.

The Spirit reacts differently with each individual, thus giving the church various gifts, as heaven determines.  (Not as we determine.)  While we may want certain gifts in our lives, even to understand the future, God is in charge of all, and he gives the Spirit to the church on his terms.

1Cor. 14:1  Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Note that having a “relationship” with the Spirit is not a gift of the Spirit.  So why is anyone pretending otherwise.

1Cor. 12:4  Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Cor. 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

1Cor. 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

1Cor. 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

1Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

1Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is also called “the Spirit of Jesus,” and “the Spirit of God,” as well as the “mind of Christ.”

Acts 16:7 and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

Rom. 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

1Cor. 2:14  But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1Cor. 2:15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

1Cor. 2:16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

So we are to have the mind of Christ and think like he does.  Thus the Spirit helps us understand the Gospel Word and obtain Eternal Life.

The Spirit also intercedes for us in ways that we cannot understand.  Helping our prayers make sense to God.

Rom. 8:26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for awe do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

So there are a lot of references about the Spirit in the NT, and none of them teach that we are to have a relationship with the Spirit.  Such a point is extreme, going beyond what is taught in the Word.  For what purpose?  To be novel and different?  To avoid the real issues?  Most sermons today are useless drivel; they are not worth anything, much less Eternal Life.

No doubt the same pastor that was promoting this Spirit nonsense has no idea how to correctly define the Gospel, the Sabbath, or eschatology.  These great truths easily elude the trite and lazy.

Bob2 said: If the Spirit is to lead the Christian in to all truth, there has to be a relationship with the Spirit:

Tom said:  The Spirit can only lead us into the Gospel truth through the Word.  This is the primary basis for Gospel truth and for everything that the Spirit does. 

The Spirit is not original or independent.  Rather, the Spirit works to help sinners understand the Gospel teachings of Christ and his Word.

If you want to have a “relationship” with the Spirit, it must be one that is based on the Word at all times.  The Spirit and the Word work together, for the edification of the church.

1Cor. 14:12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church.

Today, few Christians have any idea what Jesus teaches about the Spirit, or how to define the Gospel or even the doctrine of the Sabbath.  Which means most don’t understand the Word or the Gospel, even as they have very little Spirit.

Moreover, there is no competition between God, Christ, and the Spirit.  They are all on the same team, each with their various roles.

God is first, which is why Jesus, the Son, submits to, and obeys the Father, teaching us that we are to pray to God as our Father.  But many Christians think and act as if Jesus was greater than God, and the Holy Spirit greater than Christ.  But this is all wrong.  God is over all, even as Jesus will bow down to him at the end of the age.

John 8:29 “And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.”

1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1Cor. 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

1Cor. 15:24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

1Cor. 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

1Cor. 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

1Cor. 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

God is the greatest, then Jesus, his apostle, and then the Spirit.

1Cor. 6:17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Heb. 3:1  Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

No Secret Gospel:

There are no secret doctrines, like 1844 and the IJ, being hidden by Christ or the Spirit for the last days. “All” that God instructed Jesus to reveal about the Gospel, was revealed in the 1st century. 

The fact that the church today is so wrong about so much, like the Gospel and the Sabbath, is beside the point.

John 15:15 “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.

This passage destroys the SDA claim that the IJ is new truth for the last days.  This is impossible and absurd.  The Gospel does not change, nor does the doctrine of the Judgment or prayer or anything change at the end of time. 

Rather, when the correct Gospel emerges in the last days, it will appear to contain new doctrines because there is so much error in the last church.  But in truth, it is just the unveiling of what has been true all along.  The Reformed Sabbath of Christ will be become a major point of contention, even as it condemns all those that embrace a false Gospel and false Sabbath.

Pray to God

We are to pray to God in the name of Jesus.  We are not to pray to the Spirit, or to Christ.  Rather, we must pray to God.

1Cor. 11:13  is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

Note that Paul never asked the if it was “proper” for anyone to “pray to Christ.”  Why?  Because we are not to pray to Christ, but to God in the name of Christ.  This is why the NT never gives instruction to pray to Christ.  So why do so many Christians think otherwise?  Because few are paying attention to the Word.

2Cor. 13:7 Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved.

Acts 27:35 Having said this, he took bread and gave thanks to God in the presence of all, and he broke it and began to eat.

Rom. 10:1  Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

Rom. 15:30  Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me,

Eph. 5:20 always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father;

Phil. 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

Col. 3:17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

John 14:13 “Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:14 “If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

John 15:15 “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.

John 15:16 “You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

John 16:23 “In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.

John 16:24 “Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full.

John 16:26 “In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will request of the Father on your behalf;

How can so many passages be ignored? 

The “Prayer” of Stephen

Let’s look at this one passage in Acts that shows Stephen calling on Christ, which seems like a prayer.  However, this mention of Jesus takes place during the painful execution of the first Christian martyr, and is in a response to a vision of Christ, who is shown standing next to God the Father.

So it is not a typical prayer, but rather a reaction to this heavenly scene that was unfolding to Stephen and the Jews.  His description Jesus in heaven was so radical and disturbing to the Jews that they went into a rage of murder.  The very thought of Jesus, a crucified, uneducated convict, standing next to God in heaven was blasphemous in the extreme for the Jews. 

(The SDA’s also reject this passage, which shows that Jesus went directly to God in the 1st century.  He did not wait until 1844.)

Stephen is reacting to a vision, and calling out to Christ, who is in the vision, and was the subject of this vision.  So this is not a typical prayer whatsoever, which is why the NT never teaches anyone to pray to Christ.

Acts 7:55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God;

Acts 7:56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Acts 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse.

Acts 7:58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

Acts 7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

Acts 7:60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

This passage is not teaching us how to pray.  It is about the fact that Jesus is the Messiah, and that he was taken to heaven and accepted by God in the 1st century.  A point that the Jews needed to hear and one that they would not, not, not, accept.

So this passage cannot be used as a model for our prayers unless;

1).  We are in the process of being beaten and tortured to death for the sake of the Gospel.

2). We have just had a vision about Christ standing next to God.

Under those circumstances, it is fine to call out to Jesus, by name.  Otherwise, we must pray to God in the name of Jesus.  A point that is clearly taught over and over and over again the Word.

The Spirit

The Spirit is given to the Christian upon acceptance of the Gospel.  This “helper” brings to mind the words of Christ, and helps us understand their meaning.  The Spirit comes from God the Father to testify about Christ and the future.  Guiding all to follow what he hears from God.

John 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26  “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

So forget this idea that we are to have a “relationship” with the Spirit.  This is not taught in Bible.  We are to study the Word and follow the Gospel teachings of Christ at all times.  The Holy Spirit helps us understand the Gospel and the Word.

Bob2 asked: How do we get the "guidance into all truth?"

Tom said:  From the Word, from the NT.  This is the primary source for all Gospel truth.  Eternal life is only granted to those who treat the Word with the proper respect, studying to understand Gospel truth. 

Most “Christians” will never understand the Bible or the Gospel correctly.  While they read the Bible, (a little), and go to church every week, they have not seriously studied the Word, nor do they even know how to define the Gospel or even the Sabbath correctly.  Most don’t even know how to pray properly.

The typical Laodicean views of religion, which people get from their worthless leaders, are twisted and wrong, even as they are all clueless about how the world will end.  What a “wretched” situation.

Beware such false religion.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

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#6 04-26-11 9:20 am

cadge
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 288

Re: Grace Church- St. Louis

Bob2 said:

"John 16:13  But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

Bob,
when one adds up all the references to the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, and when you can find no presentation of a trinity in the Old Testament, the only overall conclusion that I can reach is that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Jesus never spoke of a three person Godhead. We don't get a person in us, we get a Spirit. We don't get Jesus in us, we get the Spirit that was in Him in us. We don't get it without measure as He did wherein He infallibly revealed the Father. We get a measure of it and grow in understanding and assimilation of our father's heart ("Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus). When we say Jesus Christ, Christ is not His last name; it means Jesus the anointed. When Paul says, in his letter to the Colossians,  that Christ in us is the hope of glory , he is speaking of the anointing of the Holy Spirit in us.

So when we read "But when He the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come"

It is just the presence personified to give us cognitive gravity.

When God gave the vision of the Spirit descending like a dove (BTW it doesn't say it looked like a dove, only that it descended like one) at Jesus' baptism, it wasn't a person entering into Him, but a vision that was to give the witnesses that this was the Messiah and had the Anointing of God as He spoke proclaiming Him as His son. He already had the Spirit of God within Him (without measure Jn 3:34)  from the conception in Mary by the Holy Ghost. That is why Jesus could say "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me" Jn 14:11.

There is no third person/individual.

Here's some more non-trinitarian views :


34 Reasons Why the “Holy Spirit” Is Not A “Person” Separate From the Only True God, the Father

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module … le&sid=139

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#7 04-27-11 1:13 am

bob_2
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 3,790

Re: Grace Church- St. Louis

Matthew 12:32  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Cadge, I think we need to be careful how we parse the Godhead, for the above reason. Christ said He must go so the spirit may come  in  Mark 12:36  I see no problem of viewing or thinking of them as a Trinity or three in one purpose and spirit. Most historical Christians believe in the Trinity and have to split hairs to not see it.


Cadge, notice this explanation of the Holy Spirit, certainly unique part of the Godhead, but very real intimate part of the Godhead that came after Christ left so all men could be filled that invited Him in to his being.

http://www.thevoiceforlove.com/holy-spirit.html

Also the Holy Spirit is spoken of in the Psalms by David:

Psalm 51:11  Do not cast me from your presence
   or take your Holy Spirit from me.

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#8 04-27-11 4:01 am

cadge
Member
Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 288

Re: Grace Church- St. Louis

Bob,
I do not deny the Holy Spirit, nor it's function to "convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment". It is by the power of God, His Spirit, that raised up Jesus from the dead and will also quicken our mortal bodies because it dwells in us. Romans 8:11.

If we live by the flesh we will die, but if we through the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body (unGodly impulses, urges and habits; inherited and learned) we shall live.

So the Holy Spirit instructs us as to what is sinful, and to what is righteous, and empowers us to overcome sin. Some things, once we understand God's will in a matter, we can correct without much trouble. Other things may be so habitually ingrained in us that we need to "Come boldly before the throne of grace that you may obtain mercy and grace to help in time of need". Heb 4:16


I read over the presentation on The Voice of Love that you suggested.
I need to disagree with this statement: "...the Holy Spirit is there within you waiting to join with you in Truth. It has been within you since your first step into the world." because I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is with us from the first step we take into the world. I believe that it indwells us when we're born again. The article also seems to focus on the Holy Spirit bringing us to a loving state of kindness towards others, and although this is certainly a fruit of the Spirit, I believe it's main function is to empower us to overcome sin and become sons of God. Jn 1:12, Rom 8:13, Rev 3:21

I see God is a Spirit. John 4:24 and He manifests His spirit two ways.

1. 2Cor 5:19 ." For He whom God hath sent (Jesus) speaketh the words of God, for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto Him" John 3:34.

"God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself". 2Cor 5:19 .

"Unto the Son He saith Thy throne O God is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" Heb 1:8,9.

2. "Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you...? 1 Cor 6:19

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory". Col 1:27

So, Bob, I don't speak against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God in Jesus without measure and in us by measure.


Cadge

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#9 05-02-11 2:00 pm

cadge
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Registered: 12-28-08
Posts: 288

Re: Grace Church- St. Louis

Have you ever wondered why the scriptures says "Whosoever  speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come"?

Cadge

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