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THE EVERLASTING COVENANT
In the heart of our Father, Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:18). After “the fall” God promised to put enmity between the seed of Satan and the Woman with bruising coming to each one. (Both Jesus and Satan have been dealt blows, but they’re still active aren’t they?)
I believe the everlasting Covenant began when God covered Adam and Eve with the skins. When Cain and Able offered their sacrifices, Able’s was accepted, yet Cain’s was not. Why? Because, the sacrifice had to be a blood sacrifice. The order had to be according to the will of God. It had to point to the act of redemption and to not carry it out correctly, we lose our covering; Jesus. That’s why God said to Cain, by direction and correction in mercy, “If thy doest well, shall thou not be accepted”? The condition is always “obey and live” (Like our friend Sorensen likes to remind us).
When you add it up, it’s an everlasting Covenant, why? Because in the Old Testament it was the hope given through the animal sacrifices , the shadows, pointing to the reality of the fulfillment of our Saviours sacrifice on the cross. But, it continues in that as those before looked by faith to Messiah’s coming and sacrifice in their place, we look back by faith and accept the blessed exchange, and the offer is still open to all who accept it until Jesus returns.
Now we don’t offer animals, but ourselves as living sacrifices (Rom 12:1,2), not to earn our salvation, but because we have it only by His work, not ours. We willingly lay down our inherited and learned fleshly emotions, impulses urges and habits, distrusting them. And wholly trust in the direction and correction given by God trough His Holy Spirit to the anointed writer of the New Covenant Gospels and letters. (“The Law of Christ”.) It’s a life for a life. “Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it” (Luke 17:33, Matt 10:39 Mk 8:35,36).
This is the everlasting Covenant, and it goes on until we eat from the tree of life and eat of the leaves for the healing of the nations. It is the restoration of all things. All the other promises and covenants were tied to this main one. There were laws and covenant practices that ended at the cross, “vanished away”, like “the handwriting of ordinances that were against us”. The animal sacrifices vanished away, but they were for us, not against us. What was against us, which condemned us, was the other laws which were also “nailed to the cross”. But, the condition is still obey and live, but we ,as Paul said, “do all things through Christ who strengthens me” .
Man works and God works. How else do we “press forward to the mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus”? How else do we “Keep the flesh under subjection”? Why does Paul say, “Ye have not yet resisted unto blood striving against sin”? How is it declared by Jesus Himself that “He that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne”? If we, “Through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, we will live” Rom 8:13. But we won’t want to comply until we see to ignore the way truth and life that God presents to us is to then become a supporter and partaker to the kingdom of darkness and all the evil that has come about from it’s power. Through the grace and power of God, we don’t have to bow to that evil one any more.
Like Doc Sturges says: “God requires faith, consent to the work of grace, a decision to do what is right, and a surrender to His will (Hebrews 11:6). All this is needed. Yet there is danger that even this is a work that we do of ourselves. Something even that we will take pride in as what WE have done to effect our salvation. How do we come to Christ unless we take these steps? They were to do as Abraham did, they must have heart felt belief, faith in God, and consent to the work of grace “(Genesis 15:6).
It’s the Gospel truth, but it doesn’t have anything to do with tithe, vegetables, or a day.
Cadge
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Elaine:
The first covenant or the “old covenant” was ratified by Moses at Sinai (Exodus 23:20-23; 24:3-8)
The second or “new covenant” was ratified much later (thus being second or new) by Jesus on Calvary.
The first covenant was faulty, “all that the Lord hath spoken, we will do.” It was temporary and lasted just 46 days. It came to an end with the rebellious heathen festival at the base of Sinai.
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As to your second question, I am not aware that Adventists apply “thousands of years” to any prophecy. Daniel 8:14 comes close, but I do not see how this applies in your question.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Bob,
That is the point, everlasting circumcision never was. In Heb 8:13 the old is eliminated for the New Covenant. EGW speaks your way, but the Bible differently.
I agree on both points, and I think EGW agrees too.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Cadge,
You have spent time and done much careful thinking in your post. I find it difficult to answer all the points you bring up. I have made a study of the covenant since 2004, and now have 80 articles on my website, I find there is still more to know and to write about. There is a sequence to the covenants, which I think is best presented as a historical sequence.
I have addressed on the website several of the points you raise. To respond to some of these points might require my posting an entire article on this forum, which I hesitate to do. But please feel free to browse the website. When you find something you don’t agree about, bring it to the forum, then we can be more specific in our dialog.
Your last statement: “it doesn’t have anything to do with tithe, vegetables, or a day” is a shot in the dark, as none of those three have been presented with the reasons and documentation to support them.
I’ll be glad to hear more from you. ......
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubb, it seems like I have heard you say this before:
The first covenant was faulty, “all that the Lord hath spoken, we will do.” It was temporary and lasted just 46 days. It came to an end with the rebellious heathen festival at the base of Sinai.
How could that be, there are many texts that come to mind that immediately contradict what you have said:
Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed [Jesus] to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.
How you can talk two covenants at the foot of Sinai puzzles me. Any scholars that purport that, you are singular in those I have heard this from
What of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is that then a THIRD Covenant. Please explain, thanks.
Last edited by bob_2 (01-29-11 8:15 pm)
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Bob,
The Abrahamic covenant was given to Abraham and to all his descendants. That included all Israel, and "if anyone be in Christ he is Abraham's seed" pointing to the Christian church. See also Romans 11. The New covenant was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34. It became effectual after Jesus confirmed or ratified the covenant on Calvary. At the last supper He took the cup and said, "this cup is the new testament (covenant) in my blood."
Since it is only through the blood of Christ that anyone is saved, we have to look at the new covenant as being given to Adam and Eve and to Abraham as well as to the church. The everlasting covenant, I believe, refers specifically to the covenant made between Father and Son before the foundation of the world. the new covenant, closely related, is the everlasting covenant given to man (Abraham).
In Exodus 19:4-6 God offered the people the Abrahamic covenant again. The people had been in Egypt proper for 215 years and had been influenced by heathenism. They needed strong reminders of the law of God. They needed to know what God considered sin, and they needed the law as a guide to making them "an holy nation." So the law was given by the voice of God and written on stone by the finger of God. This is why ---
19 "So what was the law for? It was given to show that the wrong things people do are against God’s will. And it continued until the special descendant, who had been promised, came. The law was given through angels who used Moses for a mediator to give the law to people" (Galatians 3:19, NCV).
When Abraham received the covenant he bowed his face to the ground and believed God. In the presence of a Holy God he could do no more than to believe that God would perform His promises.
At Sinai, the people responded with self-confident promises, "All that the Lord hath spoken we will do." This was ratified in Exodus 23:20-23; 24:3-8. the covenant of human promises was ratified at Sinai, and is called the first or old covenant. The Abrahamic covenant was ratified by Jesus on Calvary, and is called the second or new covenant. The Abrahamic covenant is made up of the everlasting covenant (from before the foundation of the world) on the part of God, and the faith and belief of Abraham on his part.
I know there are things that are not plain, so please write again.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Bob,
In working with the covenant I have used the Bible for 90%, and other authors, the internet, and Ellen White for the other 10%. I have not used "scholars." those who do use scholars have to work around their biases and explain differences. It is much simpler to just stick to the Bible. I have WordSearch, a Bible search program on my computer which helps.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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"The everlasting covenant, I believe, refers specifically to the covenant made between Father and Son before the foundation of the world."
Please give the text(s) for this conclusion. The covenants referred to in the NT say nothing about a covenant between Jesus and His Father, but between God and His people. Are is there another, a third covenant?
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There are a number of verses spoken by Jesus on earth of the "will of the Father"
6 “Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
7 “Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8 “I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
9 “I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
10 “I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation” (Psalms 40:6-10; see also Hebrews 10:7).
See also John 4:34; 19:30; and all of chapter 17. His will as a predetermined plan is also suggested in John 7:17; 9:31; Romans 9:19; Ephesians 1:5,9; Colossians 1:9; Hebrews 13:21; 1 John 5:14; Revelation 17:17.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Unique interpretation.
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Glad you, Elaine, can see what Hubb is saying. God gave the sacrifices to the Jews to perform on penalty of death for disobeying. The verse Hebrews 8:13 talks about the Old Covenant being obsolete and the New making the Old by calling the New. Maybe I'm a off today on my reasoning but what are you trying to say Hubb.
There certainly was a plan when man was created, plan for the possibility of man's failure, but other than that the Bible refers to an Old and New Covenant and Abraham's Promise. Everlasting and Eternal and Perpetual are used sometimes with conditions so they are until a covenant is broken.
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The reason I ask about who else beliefs what you claim is truth, because Jesus said:
Matthew 10:19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
If you or I or Tom, even, have a view that no other Christian believes, I believe that to be dangerous territory.
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Bob,
How can you say that Elaine understands what I said when all she said were two words, which said nothing for or against my post? Actually, I would very much appreciate anyone who will give me Bible reasons for what I say that is wrong. Bob, you said: "God gave the sacrifices to the Jews to perform on penalty of death for disobeying." Do you have a Bible verse for that? I don't recall ever seeing that God required sacrifices on the pain of death!
As for the Old Covenant -- you are right. there is no discussion of an old covenant in the Old Testament. It is implied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 when a New (and different) covenant is promised; and is discussed in detail in Hebrews 8-10.
The everlasting covenant I sometimes refer to is also called "My Covenant" and the "New Covenant." It was the covenant of redemption whereby God would give, and the Son would come to live and die to save mankind (John 3:16). I will post some more verses to support this concept.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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The Plan of Salvation, made before sin and before Creation of this world, was the “will of the Father.” There are many statements in the New Testament concerning Christ Himself which are only pertinent and intelligible in the light of His having acted in fulfillment of a covenant agreement with the Father.
Luke 22:22 . "And truly the Son of man goeth as it was determined:"
John 4:34 . Jesus saith ... My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
John 6:38,39 . "I came down ... not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me: ...
John 8:29 . And he that sent me is with me: ... for I do always those things that please him.
Ephesians 1:4,5 (NIV) . “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.”
John 10:16 . "Other sheep I have ... them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; ..."
John 17:24 . "Father, I will that they also whom thou hast given me, be with me, where I am."
John 17:4 . "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do."
Isaiah 42:6 . "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles."
Romans 8:32 . "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"
Malachi 3:1 . "I will send my messenger, ... even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in:"
Hebrews 7:22 . "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament."
Hebrews 9:15; and 12:24 . Christ is styled "the mediator of the new covenant,"
1 John 2:1 . "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Galatians 3:17 . "... the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, ..."
Hebrews 10:5-7 . "Then said I, Lo, I come ... to do thy will, O God."
Hebrews 13:20 . "Now the God of peace, which brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant."
Zechariah 9:11 . "By the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water."
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubb all those texts fit into the two Covenant that is clearly stated in the Bible. Hebrews 8:13 speaks of the two Covenants.
Acts 7:17 “As the time drew near for God to fulfill his promise to Abraham, the number of our people in Egypt had greatly increased.
Abraham's Covenant/Promise is what the two Covenants play off of. Notice that not all that is said to be everlasting, eternal or perpetual is such, such as circumcision. Certainly God created all us and whated to save us, but the message is confused when you stray away from His wording to attempt to save the Old Law and specifically the Sabbath which was a shadow of Christ's reality, Col 2: 16-17.
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Bob,
Are you trying to say that God came out of the blue and made a covenant with Abraham that included Christ's sacrifice on Calvary, grace to change the lives of men, and eventually the destruction of sin? All of these things God gave to Abraham from "My covenant", a covenant previously established between the Father and the son. But sinful man cannot have any input or influence in the cosmic plans of God!
Now your interesting statement: "but the message is confused when you stray away from His wording to attempt to save the Old Law and specifically the Sabbath which was a shadow of Christ's reality,"
I believe that the Ten Commandment law is an integral part of the Everlasting Covenant of God. In the Old Testament, the tables of stone are actually called "the covenant." The question will often arise, do sinless beings have a covenant? They do not need a covenant of redemption, but God has given His law to govern the interactions among all intelligent beings and between created sinless beings and God. It is on this law that the order and government of the universe rests. And it is in the rest, contemplation, and fellowship with God in dedicated holy time on the Sabbath that the "law of love" is embedded in our hearts and refreshed.
I am not sure that sinless beings realized that there was a law at first. In an atmosphere of love, praise, and adoration of God by all created beings, it is natural for them to do as God does, and as He says. In so doing they will keep the law, whether they know of it as a law or not.
Now about "straying away" I think that must be applied to you and anyone else in these discussions. for that reason we need to find Bible support for what we say. And maybe most important, we need to find Christ in all doctrine and theology.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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What I am saying is your forum title is an assumption. If circumcison is said to be an eternal or everlasting covenant in your flesh, then you assume you can use everlasting so you claim a continuity of the Covenants so the Ten Commandment are transferred to the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is obsolete, the promise to Abraham was at play there, but the Jews rejected the Messiah except for a remnant. The New Covenant is that a New Covenant. It has its own tenets, yes, and is God all knowing yes. But does man have free will, Yes. Can I speculate what God and Jesus said in heaven before the foundation of the earth, yes , if Biblically base or you can prove you have spoken directly to God or Jesus. 2 Cor 3:7-18, Heb 8:13.
The warning to Adventist that you give that there is only one Covenant, is given to show that the Sabbath is not part of the New Covenant if the 10 Commandments are not included , this is right but points to the Biblical truth of a New and separate Covenant with new tenets and promises. The Rest that remains and is to be striven for in Heb 4, is not the Sabbath, but Strongs #5420, a heavenly rest, the reward all that Jesus judges to be there.
I have not seen your way taught in our schools, and I haven't seen my way taught in our schools but I can see a growing number that are teaching my way. I'll ask you again, who else believes your way.
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Bob, the following are my comments with your previous post:
What I am saying is your forum title is an assumption. If circumcison is said to be an eternal or everlasting covenant in your flesh,
((This was discussed in this forum recently.))
then you assume you can use everlasting so you claim a continuity of the Covenants
((“Everlasting” by definition is everlasting to the past and everlasting to the future. In this case ‘everlasting’ is dealing with the covenant of God, It is not limited by the lifetime of men.))
so the Ten Commandment are transferred to the New Covenant.
((The new covenant is simply a renewal of the everlasting covenant of God. God has only one way for men to be saved – through
Jesus Christ.))
The Old Covenant is obsolete,
((The historical old covenant lasted just 46 days. The experiential old covenant (meticulous law keeping, lineage from Abraham, sacrifices and sanctuary services, and the multitude ordinances added to the law by men.) Is still very much with us and was predominant in the time of Christ, and it was this mindset, still present in some Jewish Christians, for whom Paul wrote in Hebrews and other of his epistles.))
the promise to Abraham was at play there, but the Jews rejected the Messiah except for a remnant. The New Covenant is that a New Covenant. It has its own tenets, yes,
((??))
and is God all knowing yes. But does man have free will, Yes.
((Agreed.))
Can I speculate what God and Jesus said in heaven before the foundation of the earth, yes , if Biblically base or you can prove you have spoken directly to God or Jesus. 2 Cor 3:7-18, Heb 8:13.
((You do not need to speculate. Much is said in the Bible about the covenant formed before the foundation of the world. I have presented lists of verses showing this.))
The warning to Adventist that you give that there is only one Covenant, is given to show that the Sabbath is not part of the New Covenant if the 10 Commandments are not included, this is right but points to the Biblical truth of a New and separate Covenant with new tenets and promises.
((To get the complete picture, one needs also to get the relation of the new covenant to the covenant given to Adam and Eve, to Abraham, and to the everlasting covenant.))
The Rest that remains and is to be striven for in Heb 4, is not the Sabbath, but Strongs #5420, a heavenly rest, the reward all that Jesus judges to be there.
((Hebrews 4 is not an easy chapter for anyone to interpret. There is an excellent article by Richard Davidson from the seminary, and one from Clifford Goldstein on my website ( www.144000.cc, articles #3.8 and 3.9). Note that it is “cc” not “com”))
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Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Bob,
Thanks at least for listening and responding.
I need to emphasize that I believe that the law of God is eternal. If the law of ‘God could be changed, then Jesus need not have died on the cross. He could have just forgiven Adam and Eve, admonished them, and let them try again. But that would be “trivializing sin,” supporting a religion of works, over riding man’s free will, arbitrarily dealing with sin and Satan, and denying the need for grace.
Associating the eternal law of God with the covenant also leads to the concept of an everlasting covenant formed in heaven between Father and Son. You are right in your assessment of my belief. But can even the government of God exist without a law?
I have not seen your way taught in our schools, and I haven't seen my way taught in our schools but I can see a growing number that are teaching my way. I'll ask you again, who else believes your way.
Who else believes this? I believe this is the teaching of the Bible. I will admit that there are very few who believe this way. Skip MacCarty teaches the everlasting covenant in his book, In Granite or Ingrained. I have heard by rumor that there are a number in the 1888 Message Study Committee that also believe and teach this concept. (However, I have not been successful in getting them to respond to me.)
E. J. Waggoner wrote a book, The Everlasting Covenant. I have read this book and marked it. It is a long wordy book and is very gospel oriented, which is good. However, he does not attempt to solve the problems with covenant presentations, or attempt to harmonize those presentations. The everlasting covenant he centers in the covenant given to Abraham. I believe that Abraham WAS given the everlasting covenant, but it was a covenant formed between Father and Son before the foundation of the world on the part of God; and an abiding faith and deep belief on the part of Abraham. At this time, there is a strange reluctance of people to accept or even to look into this concept which is well supported by the Bible.
I have not used “scholars” because I am not in an academic center, and because one would have to work around their biases, making my work even more lengthy and tedious. So I have mainly used the Bible, and the King James Version of the Bible. I have used also Ellen White, but probably less than 10% of my references. I make no apology for that, though I do try to show that the issues of the covenant are also solved by Bible references.
From your responses, it seems to me that you do not have a clear understanding of the everlasting covenant, the new covenant, or the old covenant. I do not mean this as a criticism as there are very few people who are willing to spend the time studying the covenant as I have done. I recognize that I may be mistaken, but what I have presented is what I see in the Bible at this time.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubb, there are several reasons that one should not use the word Everlasting to a Biblical Covenant as you have:
1. Everlasting, eternal and perpetual can be conditional.
2. Deut 5: 1-3 limits who the covenent is for and when you add verse 6 it limits the Old Covenant to just those rescued from Egypt.
3 Taking in to account 2 Cor 3: 7, Col 2:16-17, and Heb 4:9 definition of rest in Strongs #4520, and Heb 8:13.
4. If you read the 10 Commandments it is easily demonstrated it is written to man, not the whole universe, so it can not be the Divine Law of Heaven, can it?
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The Ten Commandments were never given to, nor intended to be for anyone but the slaves who had left Egypt. The preamble in both Ex. 20 and Deut. 5:
"I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt."
"The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord DID NOT make this covenant with our athers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today."
There was never any command nor instruction for anyone but the Israelites to obey these commands. The pagans were not allowed to observe it until they had first been circumcised:
"This is the ordinance of the Passover, NO FOREIGNER IS TO EAT OF IT, but every man's slave purchased with money, after you have circumcised him , then he may eat of it. A sojourner or a hired servant shall not eat of it....The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you" (Ex. 12:43-49).
Neither is there a single command for the Gentiles of pagans who became Christians that they were to observe these commands.
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Hubb said:
Now about "straying away" I think that must be applied to you and anyone else in these discussions. for that reason we need to find Bible support for what we say. And maybe most important, we need to find Christ in all doctrine and theology.
Truth is Truth, if it is found in other that SDA we should recognize it and not judge whether someone has strayed away, away from what, Truth. Jesus is our judge!!!
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Bob and Elaine,
Thank you for your responses. I will study the texts you have listed. I realize that I don't have all the answers. I have found that it is difficult to discuss the covenant in "short bytes." I have discussed some of these issues with others, and note that each person has a model of truth that is made up of many facets. You cannot change, take out, or move one facet without disturbing the larger picture.
In this particular forum, it seems that we get stuck on the origin of the everlasting covenant over and over again. Until this is agreed, there is nowhere else to go. I need to work more on my website, and this will include more detail on the "old covenant" which is also critical to understanding the covenants in general. This particular part will take another week or so. The website provides an opportunity to present a topic in some depth, which cannot be done in a forum. If you have questions or comments on the website articles, please feel free to respond.
Hubert F. Sturges
www.theeverlastingcovenant.com
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Hubb, if one starts out with a preconceived notion of how you believe the start, middle and end are to be, doesn't one put blinders on to the truth. The texts that I quote in Acts to Jude have been from my own study, but checking if it leads through the middle of Jesus Plan of Salvation. I have not found any of the parts to be called an everlasting covenant, without running into circumcision and the Noahic Covenant called Everlasting. While one can argue that Noah's Rainbow is forever, Circumcision can't. Adventists don't believe in a "conscious eternal Burning Hell" but we believe in annihilism, burning until consumed, with eternal separation from God as equalling Hell.
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Another thought, it seems that you and others that preach the party line of the SDA church must realize , Noah did not have the 10 Commandments but something called the Noahide law. Adventists seem to want the law that Moses had, to be the law Abraham had, or the same as Paul. This as you can see, has differences that Christ will sort out in judgement. The law for Adam, the law for Abraham, the law for Paul as I read it are not all the same. Your argument Hubb, if the SDAs say the 10 Commandments are not still in force, that the very name of the denomination shows that they have another "Great Disappointment" ahead, eh?????
P.S. what were the Antedeluvians that drowned in the flood judged by?? I couldn't be more than the law given to Noah in Genesis 9 after the Flood.
Last edited by bob_2 (02-03-11 2:19 pm)
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