The New Atheist Crusaders

don · 05-15-09 12:48 pm

The world-wide economic collapse is the direct result of the Lord withdrawing His blessings from those unrepentant agnostics and atheists who delight in mocking His warnings. Let's examine this further: Are we in a world-wide economic collapse? If we are, it seems different than previous crises. A colleague of mine told me rather casually that he lost $20 000 in investments. Chrysler employees took a cut in "salary" amounting to $19.00 an hour. Yet, it did not affect their take home pay. In Oshawa, the last GM truck to be produced in Canada has just rolled out of the factory. This crisis is severe. Is it a collapse? Depends if you have lost your job or your life's savings. Are these the judgments of God? This is for the modern-day prophets to proclaim. The quote at the top of this post is a prophetic-type statement. In Biblical times, these prophetic-type statements sometimes found their way into the sacred canon, (and, rightfully so, IMO). Is the statement above of the same calibre as the Biblical proclamations? Time will tell. (Time is the great test of a prophet's veracity.) Is this the only explanation for the "judgments of God". I don't think so. This economic crisis has come to the world because certain divine principles have been violated: greed, deception, lack of consideration for others (especially the poor), etc. Of course, now I am speaking kind of like a prophet, huh. .

elaine · 05-15-09 12:55 pm

Everyone gets to choose the prophetic voice he wishes to listen to. I choose to look at history and the record of the past rather than the predictions of the future which are suspect, or should be. Might as well go to the fortune tellers or those who read tea leaves. Who has the prescience to foretell the future? Who do you wish to follow? As for Bill Diehl, read some of his remarks on Spectrum to determine his reactions.

don · 05-15-09 1:21 pm

some who call themselves Christian prefer to return to living like a Jew. We had a discussion recently about clean and unclean foods in my Grade 9 class. We are studying Matthew. As we watch the Visual Bible presentation, I write "jot" notes on the board. After each chapter, we stop the video and discuss issues in the chapter. I have a wonderful cross-section of Adventism and beyond in this class. A question arose re: clean and unclean animals and what about touching them, e.g. a pet lizard or a dog. We first turned to Leviticus 11 and listened to an audio reading of the whole chapter. Then, I explained to the class that we really don't follow the Jewish regulations on this but simply adopt the clean and unclean designations regarding diet. We don't practice "unclean until the evening"; we don't break "unclean" pots; we don't examine restaurants to see if they have "kosher" practices in their kitchens. We are not Jewish much at all when you begin to compare Adventists with the depth of Jewish practices. Some say an Adventist has returned to living like a Jew. To say this is to ignore that vast difference between Jews and Adventists. The similarities are slight, though they seem to loom large because of the Sabbath and Clean and Unclean dietary matters. But this is far removed from being similar. I believe that as an Adventist, I still need to refine how I view the <a href="http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=8&post=55871#POST55871" target="_blank">613 Mitzvot</a> or Commandments of the Torah and its benefit to me in the light of Acts 15, Romans 1-8, Galatians, Colossians, etc. But, the more I study Judaism, the more I am convinced of the hugh chasm separating Adventism from truly Jewish practices. Sometimes, I think that Christians have a residual dislike of Jews and are quick to label anyone "in error" on certain matters as Jewish. Anti-semitism is alive and well? This practice goes way back. Some believe that Sunday was established in an effort to create distance from the Jews by anti-semitic Christians. .

elaine · 05-15-09 4:40 pm

Jews had very distinctive practices that were given to separate them from the pagan around them. What is the reason for choosing SOME of the Levitical laws and rejecting others? Did God give modern humans discernment to differentiate between those that are timeless and those that were for a specific people, time and place? How have you made your choices? Was it your God-given reasoning, or something supernatural?

elaine · 05-15-09 4:49 pm

It cannot be denied that Sabbath observance, sunset to sundown, is very effective in separating Adventists from "the world" and is following the Jewish law which was designed to separate them from all non-Jews. Dietary laws also are quite effective in separating SDAs from those poor souls who still eat lobstah, scallops, and (heaven forbid) catfish. Now, if nutritionists and dieticians can tell us what is harmful for humans to eat, please supply it. Otherwise, it is simply mindlessly following Levitical rules without scientific reasons. Why is catfish today, raised very hygienically, unhealthy, or pork or bacon? What is the difference, nutrionally, between beef and horse flesh--a favorite of some Europeans? Coffee is unmentioned in the Bible, and all the numerous scientific studies have overwhelmingly recommended for many healthful reason. Ditto for wine--and not just for the resveratrol but the alcoholic content. Does the Bible's ancient health laws trump modern science? If so, why do we not treat leprosy and menstrual uncleanliness as was recommended?

don · 05-15-09 7:26 pm

What is the difference, nutrionally, between beef and horse flesh--a favorite of some Europeans? (Shall I presume that you agree that Adventist practices and Jewish practices only seem the same after a cursory comparison.) When God called unclean animals an abomination, I think I will use that as part of my dietary guide, thanks anyway. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Adventists certainly call upon science to help them understand the latest understanding of healthful living. In doing so, they don't let go of basic understandings of health. Some, like clean and unclean foods reach back into the Levitical code for foundation (We have not always done this as Adventists. Our practice of relying on Leviticus 11 et al is rather new among us; turn of the century 1800s to 1900s. See <a href="http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/clean-uncl.html" target="_blank">The Development of Adventist Thinking on Clean and Unclean Meats</a> by Ron Graybill ) Our practice of other health concepts, including vegetarianism, relies unashamedly on the "inspired" counsel of Ellen G. White. Interesting to me is that even though EGW's counsel holds authority among Adventist re: lifestyle choice; Adventists continue to look for scientific underpinnings for their health message. They "unofficially" add new features not addressed by her as well, such as the vegan and organic foods concepts. Coffee and wine, though touted as healthful by some, still receive problematic reviews in other areas of scientific inquiry. _____________________________ <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9175309" target="_blank">Outbreak of trichinosis in France associated with eating horse meat.</a> Laurichesse H, Cambon M, Perre D, Ancelle T, Mora M, Hubert B, Beytout J, Rey M. Hôtel-Dieu, University Hospital of Clermont-Ferrand, France.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:The investigation of a trichinosis outbreak in Auvergne, France identified 23 cases in 12 households living in two cities-Clermont-Ferrand and Montluçon-between 15 February and 7 March 1991. One patient required intensive care, 15 had major symptoms, and seven had minor or no symptoms. Two case control studies demonstrated a significant (p < 0.01) association between eating horse meat and acute trichinosis. Veterinary services found that three supermarkets where the patients had bought horse meat during the suspected period had been supplied by a single wholesaler. The analysis of the wholesaler's records revealed that the implicated horse meat had been imported from a slaughterhouse in the United States. This outbreak occurred despite a requirement in France for all meat from horses slaughtered in France and in countries exporting meat to France to be examined systematically for trichinella.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <a href="http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/blood-pressure/AN00792" target="_blank">How does caffeine affect blood pressure?</a> <a href="https://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/coffee_health_risk" target="_blank">Coffee Health Risks: For the moderate drinker, coffee is safe says Harvard Women’s Health Watch</a> <a href="http://www.vegetarian-nutrition.info/updates/caffeine_effects.php" target="_blank">Health Effects of Coffee and Caffeine</a> <a href="http://www.healthcastle.com/redwine-heart.shtml" target="_blank">Red Wine - Heart Health benefits?</a> <a href="http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/10/17/f-highspirits-main.html" target="_blank">Alcohol and health — a dangerous mix?</a><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:... Alcohol classified as carcinogen Drinking also has a powerful effect on the overall health of Canadians. The health costs of long-term, heavy drinking are high. Since 2001, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has included alcohol on its list of carcinogens. It's known to cause liver damage, cancer, ulcers and reproductive problems. Heavy drinkers are also at risk for coronary heart disease, high blood pressure and stroke. A recent report published by CAMH estimates that more than six per cent of all deaths among Canadians under the age of 70 are due to alcohol. It also estimates that alcohol consumption is responsible for more than 8,000 deaths every year in Canada. The health effects of light, regular drinking are less clear. Decades of research have shown that it can protect some people from cardiovascular disease, but many studies suggest it also elevates the risk of breast cancer as much as 40 per cent. Recent research suggests that even light drinking reduces brain volume and leads to memory problems. Dr. Arthur Klatsky is a researcher with Kaiser Permanente in Oakland, Calif. He's the author of some of the first studies that suggested alcohol protects the cardiovascular system. Last year, he published research that found regular drinking increases a woman's risk of breast cancer. Klatsky says there's no simple answer about whether people should drink or not but he gives general advice to two broad groups. "Young people don't get heart attacks, and by and large, young people shouldn't drink for health reasons, and that's particularly true for women because they're at risk for breast cancer, " he says. Middle-aged, light drinkers are the people most likely to get cardiovascular benefits from drinking, says Klatsky. Klatsky says he wouldn't tell anyone to take up drinking to improve their health. He says there are many better ways to improve your cardiovascular health, such as eating healthy food and exercising regularly. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> (Message edited by Don on May 15, 2009)

george · 05-15-09 8:16 pm

Don, So... everything in moderation would be the thing. Sure, there are numerous negatives about alcohol and caffeine but so are there negatives about eating even the good stuff when done to excess. (And there are more people with Type 2 diabetes than there are alcoholics). The SDA population can be divided into segments - those that don't eat meat, drink alcohol or caffeine but cook up concoctions, mixing breakfast cereal with cottage cheese, onions, lots of cheese and even eggs, followed by various desserts, put them in cook books and call it healthy. I have a few of those cook books myself. Then there are those who survive on two meals a day living on soy milk, soy cheese, and tofu everything else. Even tofu has its down side when investigated. Whatever the reason, SDAs seem to trade pancreatic cancer for lung and liver problems. Admittedly, the ideal diet of plain food, direct from your garden without a lot of fat, sugar and processing is the best; and we proclaim loudly how science has proven the ideal SDA diet to be healthy, but when the same science talks about the benefits MODERATE alcohol, coffee and tea (green tea being the new health drink) we bring out the most extreme usage of these as an example of how bad they really are. Not fair. Every statement about the benefits of alcohol that I have come across, includes a warning that women should have no more than one per day (or perhaps even less or something like that); and coffee is claimed to prevent diabetes, colon cancer etc. but these statements, too, comer with warnings abut moderation. So what's the problem with that?

don · 05-15-09 8:54 pm

So what's the problem with that? Hopefully, the church has moved beyond micro-managing their members on matters of health. I agree that the Adventist church must continue to educate its membership re: personal health and that some flexibility is useful. We have the foundational guidelines of Scripture and the counsels of EGW, but we also have a growing body of scientific studies which also are revelations from God, IMO. We should not ignore controversial (for SDA's) findings; But, we don't need to change our health message based on a few studies either. Adventists have quite a strong regard for carefully reasoned health science. There are substances known to be addictive. Apples aren't included. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Also, there seems to be an addictive personality. Up to 5% of the general population seem to be susceptible to these addictive substances. Adventists still maintain that alcohol, as a potentially addictive substance, should be avoided. Let's say there are 10 000 000 Adventists; five percent equals 500 000. If Adventists should become social drinkers rather than abstainers, we would open the door to a serious alcohol addiction problem among us. Alcohol has so many difficulties associated with it, I can see no reason to add it to my lifestyle. .

elaine · 05-15-09 9:31 pm

When God called unclean animals an abomination, I think I will use that as part of my dietary guide, thanks anyway. There is quite a large list of "abominations" listed in the OT. Do you agree and abide by all of these? EGW's counsel holds authority among Adventists Only when it agrees with modern science do most Adventists use that as their rule. Surely, you are aware that while she had some good advice, in other areas she was woefully ignorant and used only contemporary medical thinking. Shall I enumerate? I believe that you are aware of her views on many such matters where she overstepped her medical and scientific ability. I have partcipated in the LLU Health study since its beginning and have been a vegetarian all my life and science now has given much evidence of its benefits. Coffee, in moderation, has been shown to improve and prevent against Alzheimer's and one's mental cognition. I am a tetotaller, but for those who enjoy a drink in moderation, there are benefits proven by studies. So, while diet is important, as Sirje says, while so many vegetarians susbstitute heavily with eggs, cheese, and meat substitutes and have the same percentage of obesity as other populations. EGW also spoke against eggs, milk and cheese, but these have been heavily used by SDAs for years. Salmon and fatty fish has proved to be very beneficial. Of course, Jesus ate fish and all the Jews ate barbecued meat from their sacrificial offerings which is recorded that Noah's offering was a "sweet smell to Jehovah."

don · 05-15-09 10:12 pm

There is quite a large list of "abominations" listed in the OT. Do you agree and abide by all of these? I think so. I once did a study of everything declared an abomination. We could review the list, if you like. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Don: EGW's counsel holds authority among Adventists Elaine: Only when it agrees with modern science do most Adventists use that as their rule. I agree. The trend of her counsels, those that have survived in her major published works, have been useful to the corporate body. We live in an era of Adventism where most things about Ellen White are on the table. In a church of millions of members developing a consensus is much more difficult than in the 1848 conferences. Because of that, the church should seek to moderate views as new concepts wind their way toward a consensus. It would be a mistake, IMO, to change the basics of the health message in the meantime. The gist of her counsel remains helpful to me. Some of her statements in supporting that gist seem to be overstatements. I can think of very few, if any, of her basic concepts with which I disagree. It may prove interesting to test that out with a discussion focused on what Elaine calls "woefully ignorant". .

don · 05-15-09 10:54 pm

Here is the Abominations List sheqets, a detestable thing<ul><li>Unclean foods, Leviticus 11</li></ul>tow’ebah, a disgusting thing<ul><li>Unclean foods, Deuteronomy 14 <LI>Leviticus 18,<ul><li>Incest, vs 6-18 <LI>Sex during period, vs 19 <LI>Adultery, vs 20 <LI>Homosexuality, vs 22 <LI>Beastiality, vs 23</li></ul> <LI>Graven Images, Deut. 7:25<ul><li>Not to bring into your house, Deut. 7:26</li></ul> <LI>Child Sacrifices, Deut. 12:31 <LI>Witchcraft, Deut. 18:11 <LI>Cross-dressing, Deut. 22:5 <LI>Proceeds of prostitution, Deut. 23:18 <LI>Remarrying a divorcee after she has been married to someone else. Deut. 24:4</li></ul>At one point it was said that the land itself vomits out her inhabitants. Does the land change over time? I don't think so. It is hard to imagine God not being concerned about these things in the Christian era, isn’t it? .

george · 05-15-09 11:41 pm

Don, I really don't get it. Does this mean that some of nature (animals) are an abomination to God even though He made them and called them "good" at one time. The standard answer is that the sin of man made even the animals an "abomination" perhaps. How are we to react to this designation? Are we to relegate part of nature to sin rather than having been created by God, and therefore maybe try to destroy it? Those abominations were swept away with NT statements that "what goes into a man doesn't defile, but what comes out" - not to mention the NT declaring everything lawful to eat. Of course, an educated person is going to try to maintain healthy eating habits, and as science discovers more about the foods we eat and some we don't normally eat, we should be open and free to include the good and eliminate the bad. That is difficult to do. Food is tied to culture and many psychological issues, and to change eating habits is one of the more difficult things to do (as apposed to quitting smoking). SDA tenacity to its long-held dietary restrictions is all part of the same package. Case in point - when my husband went into the army, he had determined that he would probably have to start eating some meat since all army food (even mashed potatoes) had some meat in it. He tried eating a hamburger (his very first) on the plane to basic training and gagged. From that point on he ate only what was plainly without meat. As a result, he put on extra pounds since most of what he could eat was starch, which, if maintained, would have been just as unhealthy as eating meat - perhaps more. I, on the other hand, watched my mom fry wiggling eels and would have no problem eating them (although I haven't had meat for over 40 years). Well, at this point I think I would have a problem with the eels, Leviticus aside - but you do get my point. So, I agree Don, you probably don't feel any compunction to add coffee or alcohol to your diet no matter how good they prove to be for our health. By the way, it seems carob has more saturated fat than does chocolate and none of the benefits. Try telling that to an avid diet-restricted SDA.

john8verse32 · 05-16-09 12:32 am

lots more abominations, Don.... it could be a full time job just to to remember them all..and would require a manservant or chambermaid with a palmpilot to keep track for you of all the potential pitfalls and abominations: ..Leviticus 7:18 8 And if [any] of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity. Leviticus 11:10 0 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which [is] in the waters, they [shall be] an abomination unto you: Leviticus 11:20 0 All fowls that creep, going upon [all] four, [shall be] an abomination unto you. four legged birds are abominations!!!! fortunately they are extremely rare!!! Leviticus 11:23 3 But all [other] flying creeping things, which have four feet, [shall be] an abomination unto you. Leviticus 11:41 1 And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth [shall be] an abomination; it shall not be eaten. so avoid eating snakes, alligators, crocs, lizards..even tho they have scales? Leviticus 11:42 2 Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon [all] four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they [are] an abomination. Leviticus 20:13 3 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. so sexual abominations must be the worst, since they require the death penalty in certain cases Deuteronomy 17:1 Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the LORD thy God [any] bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, [or] any evilfavouredness: for that [is] an abomination unto the LORD thy God. its real bad to kill a blemished goat as sacrifice to the Lord...He will only be impressed with the best of the best... Deuteronomy 23:18 8 Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God. so if you make your living breeding dogs, or standing on the street corner, your money is an abomination to the Lord? Deuteronomy 27:15 5 Cursed [be] the man that maketh [any] graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth [it] in [a] secret [place]. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen. 1 Kings 11:5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. {Milcom: also called, Molech} 1 Kings 11:7 Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that [is] before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon. apparently the wisest man who ever lived had some abominable friends and wives 2 Kings 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel. pass thru the fire? meaning they were still burning alive their kids as sacrifices?? 2 Chron 28:3 Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel. 2 Chron 36:14 4 Moreover all the chief of the priests, and the people, transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen; and polluted the house of the LORD which he had hallowed in Jerusalem. even the chief priests abominated very much!! Ezra 9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, [doing] according to their abominations, [even] of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. Ezra 9:11 1 Which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness. the land of Caanan apparently was filthy and unclean...another abomination!! Psalms 88:8 Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: [I am] shut up, and I cannot come forth. Proverbs 3:32 2 For the froward [is] abomination to the LORD: but his secret [is] with the righteous. Proverbs 8:7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness [is] an abomination to my lips. Proverbs 11:1 A false balance [is] abomination to the LORD: but a just weight [is] his delight. Proverbs 11:20 0 They that are of a froward heart [are] abomination to the LORD: but [such as are] upright in [their] way [are] his delight. what is "froward"???? Proverbs 12:22 2 Lying lips [are] abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly [are] his delight. Proverbs 13:19 9 The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but [it is] abomination to fools to depart from evil. Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight. Proverbs 15:9 The way of the wicked [is] an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness. Proverbs 15:26 6 The thoughts of the wicked [are] an abomination to the LORD: but [the words] of the pure [are] pleasant words. even mere thoughts are an abomination!! Proverbs 16:5 Every one [that is] proud in heart [is] an abomination to the LORD: [though] hand [join] in hand, he shall not be unpunished. so is pride!! Proverbs 16:12 2 [It is] an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness. Proverbs 17:15 5 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both [are] abomination to the LORD. Proverbs 20:10 0 Divers weights, [and] divers measures, both of them [are] alike abomination to the LORD. cheating with mismeasures is bad.... Proverbs 20:23 3 Divers weights [are] an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance [is] not good. Proverbs 21:27 7 The sacrifice of the wicked [is] abomination: how much more, [when] he bringeth it with a wicked mind? Proverbs 24:9 The thought of foolishness [is] sin: and the scorner [is] an abomination to men. Proverbs 26:25 5 When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for [there are] seven abominations in his heart. Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination. Proverbs 29:27 7 An unjust man [is] an abomination to the just: and [he that is] upright in the way [is] abomination to the wicked. Isaiah 1:13 3 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; wow..even incense is an abomination Isaiah 66:3 He that killeth an ox [is as if] he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, [as if] he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, [as if he offered] swine's blood; he that burneth incense, [as if] he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. Jeremiah 32:35 5 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. apparently child sacrifice, burning your kids for Molech is bad, tho butchering Issac for God was OK...as God asked Abe to do it Ezekiel 18:12 2 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, just looking at idols is an abomination!! Ezekiel 18:13 3 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. {blood: Heb. bloods} wow...lending money at usury rates is punishible by death!! here's the worst: even tho you collect a lot of good will, it does you no good in the end if you are guilty of wrongdoing, it is an abomination, and you must die!!! Ezekiel 18:24 4 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 20:7 Then said I unto them, Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God. Ezekiel 22:11 1 And one hath committed abomination with his neighbour's wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter in law; and another in thee hath humbled his sister, his father's daughter. Ezekiel 33:29 9 Then shall they know that I [am] the LORD, when I have laid the land most desolate because of all their abominations which they have committed. God even punishes the land..lays it desolate...just because of abominable people!!! how wise is that? Ezekiel 44:7 In that ye have brought [into my sanctuary] strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, [even] my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations. apparently it is an abomination to bring the uncircumcized into Gods house to worship....should we see a new requirement for the church pastor at the entryway to the church? Malachi 2:11 1 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. {its real bad to marry the daughter of the wrong god!! Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. apparently it is not good to be highly esteemed by others... prov 6....lists 6 (maybe 7) more abominations 16 These six [things] the LORD hates, Yes, seven [are] an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness [who] speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren

don · 05-16-09 12:50 am

How are we to react to this designation? Are we to relegate part of nature to sin rather than having been created by God, and therefore maybe try to destroy it? Just think Vulture, or Gull. Vultures have some "God-given" ability to stick its head deep into rotting flesh and not get diseased. I have no trouble viewing this bird as unfit to eat. When it comes to the designation of clean and unclean, what I believe has survived into the NT era is a health concern not a religious, or holiness, concern. Two Greek words for unclean. One means unholy. The other means filthy. I don't believe there are any holy or unholy animals. But I do believe there are still filthy, for eating, ones. Even in the book of Revelation, Babylon is described as the hold for every hateful and unclean (filthy) bird. I have no great burden to persuade someone else to follow my convictions on this, but I sure consider the clean and unclean (filthy) designations a blessing; an easy rule of thumb. (Message edited by Don on May 16, 2009)

don · 05-16-09 1:04 am

John, most of your collection of verses simply expand on the list I provided. The Proverbs 6 list of seven abominations is useful for this discussion. <ul><li>A proud look, <LI>A lying tongue, <LI>Hands that shed innocent blood, <LI>A heart that devises wicked plans, <LI>Feet that are swift in running to evil, <LI>A false witness [who] speaks lies, <LI>And one who sows discord among brethren</li></ul>I don't understand why anyone would oppose such good moral thinking. Certainly Christians still consider these seven to be sins. .

john8verse32 · 05-16-09 9:32 am

Certainly Christians still consider these seven to be sins. ...no matter who does them? Hands that shed innocent blood, are an abomination.... would that include the innocent first born Egyptian kids and animals whose blood was shed in a philosophically questionable way of reaching the Pharoah...? how about all the innocentanimal blood spilled in flooding the earth just to kill off the guilty people? were there no innocent children at the time of the flood also killed off by the God of the Hebrews? (btw: my way of understanding that story does away with this problem...how do you explain it from a literalist viewpoint?) And one who sows discord among brethren is also an abomination? isn't that what the Hebrew God allegedly but deliberately did at the ziggurat of Babel? the scariest part of my above list? Ezekiel 18:24 4 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. ...meaning that the upward slope of your life, the general tendancy to be good, the positive things you have done apparently do NOT COUNT at all in the end if you have one little tresspass...from which no matter how good you might have been, you must die!!!

don · 05-16-09 11:04 am

...no matter who does them? Yes. And the questions about how this applies to the Biblical report of God's actions remain. There are Biblical concepts which lead me to solutions. Once I have agreed that the Bible is my best revelation of God, then I am bound to try to figure these things out as best I can. Regarding the death of the innocents; God has the power to resurrect and compensate in eternity. I do not. Jesus spoke about Sodom getting more toleration on Judgment day than some others. What is this toleration beyond their destruction? Could it be that the innocents who got caught up in the war between good and evil will be rescued, in the name of Jesus, for eternal life? On another thread, I have pointed to the historians Jeremias and Aland and their debate about when infant baptism first showed up. Depending on various motives, they arrive a different conclusions. The believer and the unbeliever have different motives to examine the Bible. They come up with totally different perspectives. John, your perspective is different from mine, obviously. Your probing has been a blessing to me; causing me to think. I just wish that you could do so within the blessings of faith. .

elaine · 05-16-09 11:38 am

Faith is a decision one must make, and if Hebrews 11 is correct, it cannot be based on evidence of things we can see. I can have faith that the sun will rise each morning in the east, that it will set in the west, that where I live we will have heat in the summer. This is not faith but experience. To have faith that any book has all the answers, that it is truthful in every detail, is to be both naive and gullible. The Bible is an anthology composed of many writers, and with very different views: compare Lamentations or Ecclesiastes with Leviticus or Deuteronomy. The only possible way that they can reveal God is to accept their perceptions of God, and it is often very bleak and worthless. Some of the thoughts were taken from ancient Egyptian maxims, as were other ancient stories that are too similar to contemporary tales to accept them as original: Moses and Sargon, virginal births and conceptions in many Greek and Roman tales. The Bible cannot be considered original literature, as the borrowings are too readily seen by historians and literary analysts. While there are wonderful guides (Sermon on the Mount) in the Bible, one must be very judicious in determining how it should be used. History illustrates that is rarely the case.

george · 05-16-09 12:12 pm

John, ...no matter how good you've been, you must die!!! Well, that's just the point. If it's about our good deeds outweighing the bad we're talking about salvation by works, aren't we. Biblical salvation is about the idea that we can do NOTHING on our own behalf, therefore, Christ. That idea comes from Paul. Jesus was about a social gospel, apparently, however, the requirements of that Gospel are so high that we really need Paul to take us there (ie: who would hand over the keys for their other car as well when they're being hijacked at the red light). And I don't see many cheeks being offered at church board meetings. I think the whole idea is that God's "kingdom" is so far out of our reach that we can get there only by trusting in the graciousness of God as demonstrated by Christ, and only then "our sins are forgiven AS we forgive those who sin against us". I think it's one of those endless knots that symbolize eternity.

john8verse32 · 05-16-09 1:50 pm

There are Biblical concepts which lead me to solutions. and this one runs counter to the human concept of fairness!!! Regarding the death of the innocents; God has the power to resurrect and compensate in eternity possibly the "campfire story" thesis is the only way to understand things? where ancient, ignorant, superstitious people tried to explain their place in a violent nature by resorting to supernatural explanations of gods/God who required "sacrifice" to assuage their divine anger? Aztecs sacrificed live, beating hearts to insure the sun would come up in the morning. Apparently Caanainites sacrificed their own kids...passing them thru the fire...to appease their God molech... Did the legend of Old Abe improve on that by substituting goats which make better boda bags anyways? Did the Garden of Eden get deluged rapidly as the Persian Gulf flooded in during a quick rise in sea level...leading to the story of ancient ancestors who saved "the whole world" by rafting their family and goats to safety? or was it the Black Sea? next to the Mountains of Uratu/Ararat? either way, a literal understanding of the time line from Genesis cannot stand up to modern science and new knowledge such as that from Cosquers Cave... if we are required by the facts to reinterpret the timeline, why not go all the way, and try to understand the actual history behind what appear to be ancient myths. Could the Cain-Abel murder indicate that the desert nature of the area where the story developed valued herding (animals) more than fixed in place agriculture?...which would take the invention of irrigation to facilitate much later. does the number "40" show how ignorant the ancients were? unable to count past the combined digits of speaker and listener? and the divine number "7" which seems to have resulted from the wandering "gods" in the night sky visible to the naked eye (if the ancients had had telescopes, would our week have had more days?) Would a loving God really send bears to kill 42 kids to satisfy a new prophet's fears that he could not measure up to the previous guy who had just been taken to heaven in a flaming chariot? 42 being triple 14...which is 7 doubled to make it even double divine. with "42" being reused (with math mistakes included) by matt to prove his gerrymandered geneology... how many of the details are we required to believe by shutting down our common sense? And when John later writes that jesus was the first to go to heaven, does that not call into question the tales of Enoch and Elijah? if not cast doubt on some of Johns other claims? and if it is an abomination for anybody to shed innocent blood, how are we to understand Gods treatment of Egypts innocent firstborn kids? the only way to resussitate the concept of a loving God is to either overlook this episode in his history, as well as MOST of the OT with its murder, mayhem, rape, robbery, and general inhuman actions so often approved or even commanded by this so called "loving God" or to accept that much of this never happened and it was just a campfire story told by Hebrews to keep their own kids in line, and to make them keep the faith and enjoy their innocent passover pets killed in remembrance of Gods killing of innocent Egyptian children!!! how can one maintain a "loving God" concept, and still believe the Old Test literally? without guzzling lithium by the shovelful? that's why I am ...."without (a) knowledge" (gnostic). the real evidence however , points to ...without God (a - theism) as being the more rational way to explain the violence of the ancients...and not the actions of a "loving God".

don · 05-16-09 2:44 pm

how can one maintain a "loving God" concept Have you accepted the "loving God" concept? .

elaine · 05-16-09 3:03 pm

Have you accepted the "loving God" concept? Why? What basis do you have to accept a loving God? It surely cannot be from the Bible stories which denies that concept. However, if one blindly decides to accept that creative idea, it cannot be based on Bible but what? If your wife said she loved you, but tried to poison you; tried to destroy your children; behaved by Hosea's wife, would you still claim to love her? How does one explain love for a murderer who also claims to be God?

john8verse32 · 05-16-09 4:04 pm

I am ...."without (a) knowledge" (gnostic). for two evidentiary reasons: 1) the evidence which is available: the evidence which keeps showing up seems to usually disagree with what I was taught, so natural human tendancy is to "overlook" if not outright deny the evidence which disagrees with what one already believes, and what I had hoped would result in eternal life learning to play harp on a cloud...either that, or winging my way thru the universe and getting all my questions answered, and 2) the evidence which is NOT available. While there is no irrefutable evidence that God does NOT exist, the evidence which he could have provided if he had been serious, and had wanted modern man to understand, so far has not been provided by Him in a way, form and method which is at the same time consistant, convincing, concise, and verifiable. unfortunately, most of the evidence we have from modern sources seems to render invalid most of the so called evidence we thought we had from ancient sources. I cannot overlook Cosquers Cave in order to blindly believe the Genesis chronology. I cannot understand how there could be differing innerrant versions of the Genesis chronology.. I cannot worship a God who killed Uzzah for just trying to help steady the ark over a rough patch in the trail, when the very neighbors who had stolen the ark only got afflicted with boils..not killed. and I fear that the inability to list the <a href="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/uzza.html" target="_blank">...correct threshing floor where it happened... </a>casts darkness not light on all this being the divine manual for my salvation. and how can anybody believe in much less "love" a god who is said to have killed innocent children.. and worse? theres a holy-day for a large religion (which is at the bsis for Christianity)to honor that massacre!!! Ex 12:25 After you have entered the country promised to you by the LORD, you and your children must continue to celebrate Passover each year. 26 Your children will ask you, "What are we celebrating?" 27 And you will answer, "The Passover animal is killed to honor the LORD. We do these things because on that night long ago the LORD passed over the homes of our people in Egypt. He killed the first-born sons of the Egyptians now....if we could find a way to admit that the Old Test is no longer necessary, we might get along with integrating Christs message of love, joy and peace into society.

don · 05-16-09 5:45 pm

we might get along with integrating Christs message of love, joy and peace into society. Okay. How about this? Do you seek to integrate Christ's message of love, joy and peace into society? .

renie · 05-16-09 5:59 pm

Back to unclean foods. I'ts kinda hard to criticize someone who is eating a piece of bacon when you have a pig valve in your heart. That was my sister-in-law. Never could figure out how she could get around that one. renie

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