You are not logged in.
Arthur, you echo the sentiments of many. There is the worst paradox: either there is a god who is responsible for all events here on this earth, or she is not. Either direction leaves a huge disappointment in one's expectations of a god. <BR> <BR>Not looking for either a god to blame or one to thank is far more rewarding, IMO. Simply accept what there is, change it if we can, and have the wisdom to differentiate between those two divergent opinions (a paraphase of the Serenity Prayer).
Offline
Sirje and Elaine: Good posts from each of you. My reaction is to the typical Christian nonsense that there is a god who cares for us so much that he helps one find a good parking spot or helps my mother-in-law find her keys. This god is such a micro-manager that his eye is on the sparrow. This same god is very fussy about what each of us eats, thinks, says, and does. He/she/it spends his/her/its days examining our thoughts. He/she/it is so powerful that mountains can be moved by the deity's thoughts alone. However, he/she/it doesn't lift a finger to prevent the deaths of thousands of people. <BR> <BR>Sirje, I don't see how one concludes that any of this is under the auspices of "God." It seems to me that your "maybes" and the true believers certainties are wishful thinking. <BR> <BR>Isn't all of this god business really based on the difficulty we have accepting the finality of our own deaths? Sure, I would like to continue to live. But, the universe existed fine without me before I was born. It will continue to exist just fine after I am gone. I will be exactly where I was before I was born. Nowhere.
Offline
<b><font color="0000ff">Isn't all of this god business really based on the difficulty we have accepting the finality of our own deaths? Sure, I would like to continue to live. But, the universe existed fine without me before I was born. It will continue to exist just fine after I am gone. I will be exactly where I was before I was born. Nowhere.</font></b> <BR> <BR>Are you willing to admit that yours, too, is an interpretation? You cannot fathom a god in the midst of all this. Therefore, there is none. I understand this conclusion. I believe that God does, too. But, now I bring my interpretation of it all. <BR> <BR>For most of us, seventy years usher us into the answers. For most of us, here at atomorrow, we all will follow J.R. within twenty or thirty years, or less. <BR> <BR>For me, that's exciting (excuse me). Art, I do understand your conclusion. But, we are near to an answer, relatively speaking. I hope not to be surprised and I hope you are, pleasantly so... <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR><font color="ffffff"><font size="-2">.</font></font> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by Don on January 13, 2010)
Offline
Arthur, <BR>Sure, I'd like to live on and see my grandkids live their lives etc. but that's not what I'm focusing on here. When I mention GOD, I'm not talking about that micro-managing old man with a white beard looking down at us struggling to please him in all details. That bothers me too - some one prays for a parking spot or a house when they move, or some other feared inconvenience, and their god, the genie in the Bible, pops out and answers those wishes while kids are lying in hospitals suffering from all kinds of things, and thousands loose their lives in earthquakes, floods and fires. Not to mention kids being abducted, tortured and killed (that one really gets to me). <BR> <BR>I don't know what to make of those things, but there is a disconnect between who ever or what ever fashioned this universe and that kind of god, ready to serve, but only his elect. <BR> <BR>From what I understand (not much) the universe has a beginning. What ever caused it to pop out of nowhere set the whole thing in motion; and now science is finding out that all the stuff in the universe, including the black matter, is all necessary for this solar system to exist - so we have to wonder if those ignorant people were right after all - maybe the earth is the center of the universe, at least in its value as our home. <BR> <BR>Just wondering.
Offline
<font color="0000ff">I will be exactly where I was before I was born. Nowhere.</font> <BR> <BR>...UNLESS....you leave behind folks who thank you for your brief time here...kids, friends, people who may have been blessed by your ideas, works, concepts... <BR> <BR>you may still be nowhere, but at least when that curtain falls, and you must leave the stage, your bags will have been packed with fond memories and good feelings for those and for what you leave behind. <BR> <BR>possibly that's the Christian message... <BR> <BR>...do FOR others.... <BR> <BR>if only we could divorce ourselves from Mosesianity... <BR> <BR>...do TO others
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
Offline
John, with the book: "The Quotable Atheist" there are numerous others. I will probably choose more from time to time. Some are quite profound, IMO.
Offline
John, I agree. I am fortunate to have three fine children, ages 25, 23, and 20. They are good people who make the world a better place.
Offline
Well, even if we die and that's it, that's not really it. Like Michael Dowd says in his "Thank God for Evolution", we are stardust. Literally. All atoms in our bodies (except for hydrogen, if I remember correctly) used to make up stars. And when we die and decompose, the same atoms will be recycled and recycled again. Therefore we will change form forever. Doesn't this sound very spiritual and dangerously close to a belief in an afterlife or reincarnation?
Offline
Whatever lies on the other side of death, I am prepared to accept: if it to be part of the earth, that has always been the concept: To dust you came to dust you return. <BR> <BR>The Hebrew people never spoke of an afterlife. Their immortality was their hope of millions of descendants and the future granting of land. We might as well accept that, as we never know until too late, what our future after life will be.
Offline
we've just had a miraculous sign..... <BR> <BR>the quake in haiti....and it is God's wrath for the haitians pact with the devil...according to preacher Robertson.... <BR> <BR>otoh, if we believe in a loving god, then this quake could not have been His handiwork, but natural processes of the earth..... <BR> <BR>just like rising oceans due to melting glaciers due to the earths wobble (the milankovitch effect) caused the flooding of coastal areas, possibly leding to myths about the whole earth flooding.... <BR> <BR>education is the process of learning how to explain things naturally instead of superstitiously, and blaming everything on some divinity "up there"....
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
Offline
John, how true! When people no longer refuse to believe that God sends, or prevents such tragedies and understand that natural forces are behind them, it will be a relinquishing fear of God's retribution, as Pat Robertson's explanation!
Offline
"Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.”
Offline
I have purposely stayed away during this conversation until, I could offer a proper, appropriate retort to all you skeptics. Here is a quote from Lee Strobel's book, "The Case for Faith" <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>... After wide-ranging research into the topic of suffering, Philip Yancey wrote, "As I visited people whose pain far exceeded my own ... I was surprised by its effects. Suffering seemed as likely to reinforce faith as to sow agnosticism." Sottish Theologian James S. Stewart said: "It is the spectators, the people who are outside, looking at the tragedy, from whose ranks the skeptics come; it is not those who are actually in the arena and who know suffering from the inside. Indeed, the fact is that it is the world's greatest sufferers who have produced the most shining examples of unconquerable faith." <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by Bob_2 on January 16, 2010)
Offline
That is an argument that baffles me due to, what seems to me, its inanity. Broken bones heal stronger. By your logic it is a good thing if I break my child's bones or willingly allow someone else to do so. <BR> <BR>I'll bet those children in Austria imprisoned by their father/grandfather in the basement felt a closer bond to him than most children do to their fathers or grandfathers. After all, they had no other adult contact other than their mother/half-sister. If I argued that the father/grandfather imprisoning them was a good thing, you would call my argument not only inane, but insane. And you would be right. <BR> <BR>Any mother or father who would pin his child under piles of rubble (or allow it to happen when he or she could easily prevent it) thereby causing his or her death, would be rightly called a monster. That would be true even if the child was rescued by others and "merely" injured. <BR> <BR>The real problem with your argument, Bob, is that you assume it is a good thing to have more, rather than less, faith in the idea that a cruel parent is worthy of respect and love, even worship. I'm not buying it.
Offline
it is the world's greatest sufferers who have produced the most shining examples of unconquerable faith."
Ergo, to have more faith, pray for more suffering!
Offline
Why do you suppose an angel stood outside the Garden of Eden after sin and Adam and Eve were ejected. Sin entered the world. You can wish for no pain, no sorrow, no broken bones, no dysfunction, but, then you need faith in God of a New Earth, not evolution that ends in dust. You don't have the luxury of designing the sinful world you want, unfortunately, this is what we live in, until we are raised to be with God forever. Man has free will, they chose how to spend relief money for decades in Haiti. Unfortunately those evil men, have brought this down on the civilian population. No planning for earthquakes, hurricaines, clean water, or sewer systems have natural consequences. You want a miracle, when it happens, wouldn't you cry foul that God is interjecting Himself into man's affairs, outside the natural laws of nature, and "evolution". What is it Art you really believe in. Free will carries with it some nasty things, eh???
I was attending a Presbyterian Church and became a member from about 1995 until 2009, when just recently I asked my membership to be removed because of Calvinism which I could no long support, as I found out what it taught, essentially stripping man, created in God's image of free will. Calvin believed man was too depraved to make his own decisions so God would save an elect and destroy the rest, against their will. How does that fly with you, Art?
Offline
Elaine, people are given different gifts, and experiences. I doubt that anyone would pray for more sufferring in order to have more faith.
Like I heard a minister say once, be careful what you pray for. Especially for more patience, because it could be a long wait for your answer or at least to know what He answered, eh??
Offline
Broken bones heal stronger. By your logic it is a good thing if I break my child's bones or willingly allow someone else to do so.
I can see the logical problem, I think. But, I don't carry my belief in God's involvement to that intensity. I recognize that my understanding of God is limited and anthropomorphic. He really is far grander, mysterious, etc. etc. etc. than I can fathom.
If I limited my conception of God to how you have described the problem, I would probably join you in giving up on a belief in God.
The God, my God, of this intensely scientific age must be more, much more, than the God of the past. When we look up to the heavens, we know that what we see is not encased in a dome with god just above the dome. We know, by mathematics, that the universe is vast beyond comprehension. So, my conception of God is, by that very vastness, inadequate. Yet, I am convinced that the wonders of nature testify to the existence of God. Even the Bible, though adequate to help me with my moral compass, is very inadequate to answer all my "scientific" questions. Even my moral compass must be careful in reading the Bible, etc. I must know how to reason and wisely interpret Scripture. Otherwise, I may feel compelled to stone a few people, or serve up a dusty drink to those who may disappoint me, or view women as property in conquests of war. :-(
Scripture, too, must be interpreted more carefully in our scientific age than in past times. I must allow for progression of thought; development of moral reasoning, etc.
But, I still sense that I am better off with my belief in God, transcendent though He is, than without.
.
Offline
Why was an angel placed outside the Garden of Eden after sin? Beats me. One would have to ask those who made up the story. Why does any writer of fiction devise a particular plot twist? For it is obvious to me that the story is made up, a work of fiction. It is not a report of something that literally happened.
What do I believe in? I believe in what I can see and sense. And I tried for years to sense god or to find him. I asked him to find me. I have looked and looked for evidence in the world that fits with the story with which you and I were inculcated. I don't see it and can't find it.
Without the Hebrew scriptures and the overlay of the Christian scriptures, there is no story. The Bible has far too many problems and is obviously not the product of a divine mind.
As I've said before, I realize I could be wrong. There might be a god or an underlying force/mind in the universe. However, I think there is no chance at all that any such force or being could be the war god of the Israelites, whether you call him Yahweh or Elohim or his/its progeny.
Why do I care? It makes me angry that I was fed a line of bull. Some of those feeding it to me actually believed the story, but I am convinced that some, perhaps many, of them knew it was EDITED -- admin. Not only that, but I think that deep down inside you sense it is nonsense as well. I have never heard an adequate explanation for disasters like tsunamis and earthquakes in which tens of thousand, even hundreds of thousands are killed. Free will caused that? I may not be the brightest guy in the world, but I am smart enough to see how wildly stupid that argument is. (Whenever I hear that one the BS alarm in my brain is so loud, it is deafening!!!!)
Speaking of the Bible, is sad to see some really intelligent people struggling to justify the Hebrew war god ordering the wholesale slaughter of every man, woman, and child, except for the virgin girls who the Israelites got to keep for their own uses. What were those uses? Rape and/or slavery. That is some god you worship.
Offline
Returning to "The Case for Faith", Strobel interviewed Peter Kreft, Philosophy Professor at Boston College and author of "Making Sense Out of Suffering". Follow his logic about God and suffering:
Kreft: I remember when one of my daughters was about four or five years old and she was trying to thread a needle in Brownies. It was very difficult for her. Every time she tried, sh hit herself in the finger and a couple of time she bled. I was satching her, but she didn't see me. She kept trying and trying.
"My first instinct was to go do it for her, since I saw a drop of blood. But wisely I held back, because I said to myself, 'She can do it.' After about five minutes, she finally did it. I came out of hiding and she said, 'Daddy, daddy- look what I did!' She was so proud she had threaded the needle that she had forgotten all about the pain.
Without the pain there was no learning.
Offline
Why do you suppose an angel stood outside the Garden of Eden after sin and Adam and Eve were ejected.
its closing the barn door after the horses have escaped!!!
maybe its all symbolic...flaming sword and everything....
also we might ask why God cursed the ground!!! what sin had the ground committed?
and was it at this time that the Lord allowed the devil to change lions grass eating molars into flesh tearing incisors? or did God Himself punish animals and make them eat each other just because Eve was "deceived" by a magic snake, presumably speaking Hebrew?
a more omniscient God, having created people with an abundance of curiosity, might have foreseen the need to put up a fence around any trees he didn't want them to partake of.
In addition, this omni everything God probably should have warned Eve about the talking snake.
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
Offline
It seems to me that humans like animals far more than the fictional character in the Bible does. As I recall their god liked the smell of burning animals. Of course, so do many people, though I don't.
Offline
Don said:
"The God, my God, of this intensely scientific age must be more, much more, than the God of the past. When we look up to the heavens, we know that what we see is not encased in a dome with god just above the dome. We know, by mathematics, that the universe is vast beyond comprehension. So, my conception of God is, by that very vastness, inadequate. Yet, I am convinced that the wonders of nature testify to the existence of God. Even the Bible, though adequate to help me with my moral compass, is very inadequate to answer all my "scientific" questions".
I thought of this statement by Don as I was re-reading Revelation 15. There is there no dome separating the earthly waters from the heavenly waters (the sea below from the sea above) as depicted in Genesis 1, but apparently John thought there was as he saw those who had gotten the victory over the beast, his mark and his image standing on it playing the harps of God just before the plagues are poured out. He saw the sea of glass mingled with fire in his visions. The fire depicting the trials that those on the glass and those on the earth experience. "Beloved think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you as if some strange thing happened to you, but rejoice that you may be partakers of Christ's sufferings that when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy". No wonder they were playing harps, being joyful and singing the song of Moses and the Lamb; the song of deliverance.
I think that God allowed in visions scenarios things that were in tune with mans shallow understanding of the things related to the world around him, as God's great concern was to teach things of a spiritual nature for the direction and correction of man. He did not come to correct mans misconceived notions of earth science or history or whatever, but used the common understandings to convey his truths of His eternal kingdom and the way to become one with Him in it.
I think the Bible has more metaphor, parable and allegory than we realize also.
I also think that we need to consider strongly the thoughts of Stephen Jay Gould in his essay on NOMA (Non Overlapping Magisteria) when trying to make sense of secular/biblical conflict.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/quotati … ote202.htm
I mean, when I was watching the IMAX 3D presentation of the Hubble Telescopes view of the celestial bodies and all the galaxies, I realized that God's system ran like a fine tuned timepiece, each movement relating to another in order for the whole to function. It is a magnificent piece of intelligent design; the cosmos. And, for the sun and moon to stand still that day upon Gibeon and the valley of Ajalon for Joshua and the children of Israel, the whole universe would have had to stop it's motion.
So I say that within the Bible writings, there is much conjecture concerning the past, and by human understanding of it, the prophecies of the future were also not without human misconception. However, as I said before, it is God's purpose to teach us the way to the eternal righteous society, and He uses the faulty understandings of men to instruct us in the way as long as He can accomplish His ultimate goal for us. Or, at least for the elect, the true seekers.
(Thanks again for that heads up Maggie)
Offline
The whole cosmos would not have to stop for the sun and moon to appear to stand still in Joshua's day.If one reads the passage as written it is obvious that there was something happening that caused an abrupt tilting of the earth's axis causing a elongation of the daylight hours . Similar to the summer winter daylight periods.
The rotation of the earth would not slow down but the sudden tilting would have possible effects on parts of the globe. We can have tsumias in southeast asia without the effects felt here in the north atlantic so a writer in Cannan would not necessarily be aware of the havoc caused in other parts of the world by this sudden freak in nature.
Something unusual did happen that day, we are silly to pooh pooh it just because we did not observe it ourselves. when the bible says "the stars in their courses fought against Sisera" we haven't the slightest idea as to what the writer was seeking to convey.
Offline