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Tom, your long post is interesting but not Biblical. As each Covenant has it's own tenets and law:
Hebrews 7:12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.
The tenets of the Old Covenant were fulfilled on the cross. Hebrew 8:13. Col 2:16,17. The Law of Christ that Paul states he is under, are the tenets stated by Christ and the Apostles. No where is there a command to keep a day as salvific, Saturday or Sunday. A day under the New Covenant is not salvific. God set a new day, TODAY, Heb 4:7. As one of the New Covenant better promises we can have the peace and rest promised in Jesus any second, minute or hour of the week.
Hebrews 4 address our New Covenant Sabbath Rest in a spiritual way. God even set another day, TODAY. This is the Gospel Sabbath, found in Jesus. Col 2:16,17.
The only teachings of Christ were in Mark 2:27. Note this article on this passage:
'The Sabbath was made for man'
After the Pharisees criticized Jesus for allowing his disciples to pick some grain on the Sabbath day, Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).Was he saying that God made the Sabbath for both Jews and gentiles—all human beings?No, that was not the point. Jesus did not say that the Sabbath was made for all people. The Pharisees believed that the Sabbath was for Jews only. If Jesus had said that the Sabbath was made for gentiles, it would have created another controversy.
The Pharisees were concerned about the behavior of the disciples, not the gentiles. If Jesus responded by teaching that the Sabbath was made for everyone, it would have supported the Pharisees' concerns instead of refuting them.
The Pharisees were overestimating the importance of Sabbath restrictions. Jesus responded to them not by expanding the Sabbath, but by reducing it.
We can see what Jesus meant by looking at the next phrase: "and not man for the Sabbath." His point was that the Sabbath was made to serve people, instead of people being created to serve the Sabbath. The Sabbath was a servant, not a master. He was addressing the relative importance of the Sabbath, not which specific people were given the Sabbath.
We could just as easily say, "Circumcision was made for humans, not for angels." This statement is true, but we should not focus on the first half as if it meant that circumcision was made for all humans. It was given to Israel only, not the rest of the world.
Similarly, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for humans, but he did not say, nor did he mean, that it was made for all humans.
Michael Morrison
http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/mark227.htm
What you preach, Tom, is no Reformed Sabbath, but the Covenant Theology Sabbath. The Covenant Theologians believe that Christ never fulfilled the Old Covenant on the Cross. Because some of the tenets are similar to the Old Covenant, does not mean no break between Old and New. Heb 8:13.
As with any contract new tenets exist, though some look alike, if you were divorced from a wife and married another, no tenet of the first marriage contract can carry over to the 2nd or New. No prenuptual, nothing about kids from the 1st, all is fulfilled.
Your Reformed Sabbath is unbiblical. The New Covenant speaks of the Sabbath in Heb 4 and Col 2:16,17. It is tough to make those texts fit into your Reformed Sabbath.
Christ's Law comes closer to God's Divine Law, that law that existed before Lucifer fell. No Sabbath was in existence, no creation and no deliverance from Egypt. Nor, does Gen 2:1-3 command a keeping of a Sabbath, but a sanctifing or setting aside for futher use, which was done at Sinai and in the fulfillment in Jesus Christ.
Work, as defined by God and Jesus was clarified by Jesus here when being persecuted for the way He kept the Jewish Sabbath:
John 5:16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
He was defining work. And pointing out that His ceaseing from His creation in Gen 2:1-3 was a completion not a rest, rest being able to be translated that way.
Tom, with all due respect, your New Covenant Reformed Sabbath, doesn't exist, as much as you would like it to.
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Tom,
Have your read the Didache? It is one of the earliest of Christian catechisms and it mentions both the "preparation day" as the sixth day and it mentions the "Lord's own day" as the day of assembly. Here is the link to it: http://www.presenttruthmag.com/Judgment/80.html The relevant parts which mention these days are in bold type. This is very good evidence to show that the early Christians observed the "Lord's own day" which must have been the seventh day Sabbath since they recognized the sixth day as the preparation day.
Bill Diehl, editor
Present Truth Magazine Online
www.PresentTruthMag.org
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Thanks so much Tom for finally revealing your NC Sabbath. It was like pulling teeth to get an answer from you. Here it is folks straight from the Present truth magazine Web site.
"Although the Gospel Sabbath is still the Seventh-day, Jesus is opening the door for the New Covenant "man" to embrace a wide variety of behavioral options on the Sabbath, including the normative study of the word and the gathering to praise God and celebrate the Lord's Supper. But make no mistake about it, Jesus' injunction about "doing good" on the Sabbath has replaced the Old Covenant prohibition against work. But the SDA's have failed to figure this out as yet."
"So you advocate that it's okay to work on the Sabbath?"
Tom: "The New Covenant Sabbath allows for people to work or play on the Sabbath so long as it is helpful, useful, necessary, and good. There is no sin in delivering the mail, pumping gas, or performing surgery on the Sabbath. Any work done on the Sabbath is permitted and lawful if it is helpful and good. But it is sin to teach Old Covenant Sabbath keeping in the church, and an even greater sin to sue innocent employers and persecute them in the name of false doctrine."
John 5:16 - For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
Jesus repudiated the Old Covenant Seventh-day Sabbath, even as he articulated the New Covenant "working Sabbath" for all. Why? Because God works on the Sabbath to keep the world running, so too should his children. Thus Jesus is claiming to imitate and teach God's version of the Sabbath to the Church. And this holy, New Covenant version is obviously very different from what the SDA's teach.
When the Sabbath was understood the least, Jesus came to explain it. Thus he correctly explained God's view of the Sabbath and REFORMED it for the Church. He didn't remove it, or change it to Sunday, he REFORMED it from a law based doctrine to one that rested on the Gospel. Consequently, when Jesus teaches that it is lawful to "do good on the Sabbath," he has opened the door for a wide range of human behavior--including all manner of work.
Jesus never taught that anyone should quit his or her job in order to observe the Sabbath. He never taught that it was to be a day of rules, regulations, and religious prohibitions. In fact he taught the opposite and repudiated such things. Which horrified the Jews and confounds the SDA's today.
When the church correctly understands the Sabbath teachings of Jesus, the Sunday Sabbath will become exposed as great fraud and Gospel error, and so too this legalistic nonsense about having to quit ones job in order to "obey the Seventh-day Sabbath" to please God. Jesus did not teach such a position--but the Pharisees did! Thus the SDA's have the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Pharisees. Not the reformed Gospel Sabbath of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath.
So here is yet another area where the SDA's need major doctrinal REFORM. Who knew that they had the wrong Sabbath all these years? Who saw that coming?"
Tom also said this: "There is no merit in Sabbath worship for anyone. And it should not be observed as if we are Jewish and without knowledge of the gospel. Away with the long list of rules and regulations, the sunset calendars, and the banishment of joy and fun. We do not want to be like the confused Jews who were elevating the Sabbath above their Messiah and today are fearful of turning on a light switch or cooking a meal. The curse in the Garden was one of work and endless struggle for sinful man. How fitting that those who have the true Gospel are entitled to a weekly day of rest and relaxation from our weekly troubles. The Sabbath is a weekly vacation that we can choose to take advantage of or not. A day to thank God for the gospel and the new earth that will soon be ours. But no matter how you honor the day, with a special meal, or church attendance, a silent prayer or bible study, or fellowship, rest, a long hike in the country, or helping a neighbor in need, or working at your job, or whatever...take the gospel along, for that is the only thing that is salvific. That is the key to all our "rest", both in this life and the life to come. (Happy Sabbath and enjoy the gospel)."
Ellen would turn over in her grave if she could hear those words. Guard the edges she wrote. Do away with the sunset calender Tom wrote. Go to work on the Sabbath Tom wrote, but take the Gospel along.
Tom, what makes your NC Sabbath any different from any other day? Jesus taught all that????
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Tom has insight the rest of us don't have. Maybe he is the new SDA prophet and doesn't want to reveal his identity. Or maybe he has the peculiar ability to read the Scriptures between the lines, something the rest of us can't do.
I will say this Tom, I can read between your lines and have determined you are just so much hot air. Too bad because you do have some good thoughts. You have it right on the tithing issue.
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William Diehl asked: Have your read the Didache? It is one of the earliest of Christian catechisms and it mentions both the "preparation day" as the sixth day and it mentions the "Lord's own day" as the day of assembly.
Nice post Bill. I read it many years ago, but did not remember it as a pro-Sabbatarian document. (I also see that they did understand that we are to pray to God and not Jesus). However, this document is not to be viewed as if an apostle wrote it.
Before 70 AD, I doubt that there were any Gentile Christians, much less Jewish Christians that embraced Sunday as the Lord's Day. In fact, NONE have ever been found.
While the RCC says otherwise, they have offered no proof for this bold assertion that is refuted by the evidence in the NT as well as in all other places, the Didache being one of those. I repeat; there is no record of any Sunday worship prior to 70 AD. This is because it never took place that early.
When John, a Jewish apostle, references the Lord's Day in Revelation 1, (circa 90 AD) there is no possibility that he means Sunday. This is culturally, doctrinally, and historically impossible.
No JEWISH Christians, much less any of the Jewish apostles, would ever have embraced a Sunday Sabbath, and they did not do so. Which means that the Lord's day reference, by John, is associated with Jesus, and his claim to be the Lord of the 7th day Sabbath.
Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
Matt. 12:8 “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
This idea about Sunday being the Christian Sabbath is a total fraud. There were far too many Jews involved with this new Semitic religion that featured a Sabbath keeping Jewish Messiah for Sunday to have become a doctrine without a big fight being placed on the record. Absent any command about Sunday, there was no way that such a tradition could be so easily changed. There was only the 7th day Sabbath in the early church. Sunday as the Lord's day did not exist.
While the SDA's have many things wrong, they do have the correct day for the Sabbath. Too bad it is the OC Sabbath of the Pharisees and Judaizers. This is a great mistake. All SDA's need to read the Sabbath debates in order to understand the difference between the OC and NC Sabbath.
After 70 AD, Sunday would begin to take hold with some Gentile Christians. Why? The main reason is because the world was very anti-Semitic, even as there was yet another Roman war against the Jews to come. There were also secondary reasons associated with paganism and the worship of the Sun etc.
The Jews were great troublemakers that could not get along with Rome or with the new Christian Sect that originated in Jerusalem. They could not get along with anyone, and consequently, no one wanted to be associated with them.
The Jews were almost extinct by the early part of the 2nd century; they had no Nation, Temple, or Priesthood. They were hated as troublemakers, and for always stirring up the wrath of Rome. (This was not true in the early days of the Roman Empire. The Jews were given many concessions by Rome, and treated very well.)
As a result, the GENTILE church fathers figured out a way to separate the Jews from the Gospel Story, and Sunday became the new Sabbath for the Gentile church. And so it stands to this very day!
This is why so many think that Judaism and Christianity are different and unrelated. Because this fraud is what the church has been teaching from the 2nd century on. There is no such thing as Gentile doctrine in the church. It is a very popular myth that must be corrected.
The NC represents REFORMED JUDAISM. The church is not a Gentile paradigm, nor will it ever be. It is %100 Semitic. Few understand this point, but the Gospel Sabbath is meant to reinforce this great truth that the Christian Faith is 100% Jewish. Most people today are shocked to hear such a thing. But it is true, nonetheless.
Bob Shields said: Thanks so much Tom for finally revealing your NC Sabbath. It was like pulling teeth to get an answer from you.
Bob, all you had to do is look up "Gospel Sabbath" in JR's AT site, or even Goggle, and read a number of detailed answers about the NC Sabbath. You need to learn how to research and study the issues. This material is easy to find if you look. Here are some links about the Gospel Sabbath:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … abbath.htm
http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … #POST26956
http://reinventingsdawheel.blogspot.com … orris.html
Bob said: Ellen would turn over in her grave if she could hear those words. Guard the edges she wrote. Do away with the sunset calendars Tom wrote. Go to work on the Sabbath Tom wrote, but take the Gospel along.
Don't presume to know how Ellen White would react to new insights about the Gospel and the Sabbath. After all, she has been wrong about both many times, and she knew this, even if the church hid such things from the public.
In fact, when it comes to the Sabbath, the Adventist Community is following the doctrinal insights of Bates and J. N. Andrews, not Ellen White, because she had been wrong about the Sabbath a number of times. So don't presume to know things you do not understand.
Ellen White was far more progressive and open to new truth than were her contemporaries. This is why she embraced Andrews's view of the Sabbath, and Waggoner's view of the law and the Gospel, and repudiated her own views.
Because she understood the Gospel, late in life, she would also, no doubt, understand the Gospel Sabbath. So Ellen White would be very happy to know that there is a Gospel Sabbath for the SDA's. Such a discovery would vindicate the Pioneers, even as it shows what should have been understood during the 1888 debates.
Bob said: Tom, what makes your NC Sabbath any different from any other day?
Well for starters, it is the 7th day. This alone makes it different, as well as historical, being the special day of worship for Jesus and the Jews. And because the Gospel is Jewish, it makes perfect sense for the church to have a Gospel Sabbath, which can only be on the 7th day.
If the church is to have a special weekly day, it must be the 7th day. This is the first point that must be established before any details about behavior on this day are discussed. The 1st day of the week, is not valid as a substitute for the 7th day. Period.
The 7th day is the primary worship day for the Jews and the Christians. So this alone makes it very different from all other days. This is the day that all come together to study the Word and Worship God. Of course there are many other things that can also be done, but this is at the top of the list. So it is very different from the other 6 days.
Bob asked: Jesus taught all that????
Many would be surprised at what the Bible actually teaches. Today, there is so much myth and absurd doctrines overwhelming the church, that few have any idea what Jesus and the apostles were really teaching. Sunday is a good example of false doctrine running wild in the church, and so too is this idea that we are judged by our works for salvation, or that tithe paying is valid in the church, etc., etc.
The fact that everyone has most every doctrine wrong is fulfilled prophecy. No wonder that the Gospel, and the Gospel Sabbath will shock the world at the end of time? The truth is very different from what all have been indoctrinated to believe.
Bob Shields said: Tom has insight the rest of us don't have. Maybe he is the new SDA prophet and doesn't want to reveal his identity. Or maybe he has the peculiar ability to read the Scriptures between the lines, something the rest of us can't do.
Ha! Anyone that seriously studies the Bible and church history for 40 years had better gain some insight and knowledge. Otherwise, it would be a major waste of time.
Moreover, many of those years were spent in examining the SDA prophet and the institution that was supposed to represent her. Such rare access and study is also a source of great insight and knowledge about a very difficult and suppressed subject.
But guess what? I did not do this for my own personal pleasure. I was doing it to help the Advent Movement. As soon as I discovered the hidden documents in the Archives and White Estate, I shared this information with the church leaders.
Little did I know that they did not want this information to become public. And this is why they continued to cover up the true facts associated with the 1888 debates. To this very day, the White Estate refuses to confess and tell the truth about Ellen White. But I have determined to tell the truth and not allow this fraud to stand.
So my insights and discoveries were not meant to be hidden and kept away from the Adventist Community. But this is what happened because the church is so corrupt.
Thanks to the Internet, I have been able to share my many years of study with others, and that has been taking place for sometime now. Much to the embarrassment and chagrin of the leaders who have been exposed as dishonest wolves that have no insight or truth.
Bob said: I will say this Tom, I can read between your lines and have determined you are just so much hot air. Too bad because you do have some good thoughts. You have it right on the tithing issue.
Ha! Let me get this straight; if you agree with my conclusions, I am "right." But where you don't, I am wrong and full of "hot air." This is too funny. How nice that you think you have been given the gift to correct all others. Too bad for your that there is no such gift in the church.
Here is a passage that speaks to this situation;
Rom. 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Rom. 12:4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom. 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Rom. 12:6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly:
The church is comprised of many people, even as each has been given specific gifts. Do not disregard the gifts of others, or think yourself more informed when there is no basis for such a claim. While you have determined that I am in error, whenever I disagree with you, I have determined that you need to study more. Much more.
Don't think you are the first to repudiate Adventist Reform or become shocked at these new reforms. There have been many that have tried to make their case before you, including the SDA apologist Clifford Goldstein. But they have all failed, and so too will you.
Over time, many that once thought Adventist Reform was completely wrong have now had to reconsider. The Advent Movement is in the midst of a paradigm shift. What all were so certain was truth, like Tithe or the IJ in Rev 14, has turned out to be error. And what seems impossible, like the Gospel Sabbath will stand firm under the harshest examination.
But keep trying my friend. This is why we are having this public and open discussion. The point is to help the confused and self-destructing Adventist Community come to their senses.
Without genuine Gospel Reform, the Advent Movement will die.
I hope this helps,
Tom Norris for Adventist Reform
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No one argues that there weren't Jews or Jewish Christians that perserved their ways, at least for some time after Christ and Paul. So what.....
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Tom, all I need do is compare what you think Jesus did while on this Earth as our Savior and what He said. Jesus said that He didn't come to change the law until all was fulfilled. I take Him at His word, He didn't change the Sabbath. He never told Jews that it was proper to work at their jobs on Sabbath. he didn't tell them to disregard the beginning and end of the Holy day. You would make the day into just another secular day. Do what ever you please, but bring the Gospel along with you. That is just plain foolishness. It never took place. You are reading what you want to see. It just ain't there friend. You are teaching heresy.
If people feel good placing their trust in Moses, we cannot make them accept Jesus and the NC. SDAs have one foot in Moses and one in the NC. They don't know what to believe and you aren't helping with your false NC Sabbath. You aren't he only one who has studied scripture. And you aren't the only one who has come up with a false premise.
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Tom, you may be right about what EGW would have believed, so what. The Bible that she asks us to test her by, is NCT. IF you read the Bible Solo Scriptura, you will see it too. There was a break, a fulfillment of the Law at the cross, including the Sabbath. In Hebrews 4, it even says another day God set, TODAY. Col 2:16,17 points to the Sabbath being a shadow found in Christ. That is way different than you believe or that you claim EGW believes. You just want to believe and have EGW believe all the Pharisical rules were done away with. You are a Covenant Theologian. Continuity when Discontinuity is taught in the Bible. Heb 8:13. When Heb 4 spiritualized what the Sabbath Rest was. If you feel you are the purveyor of something different, take your own caution to heart.
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http://liftedveil.org/content/tcfcamp20 … 20Line.pdf
This graph is interesting to delve into.
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Read Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D., Andrews University, Chapter 3 of his book, "The Sabbath Under Crossfire" here:
http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_ under_xfire/3.htm
I find this last paragraph rather weak and works oriented, certainly, IMO, preaching another Gospel:
New Covenant believers who on the Sabbath stop their work to allow God to work in them more fully and freely tangibly show that God really counts in their lives. They make themselves receptive and responsive to the presence, peace, and rest of God. At a time when so-called "New Covenant" theology is deceiving many Christians into believing in the "simpler" and "better" principle of love, the Sabbath challenges us to offer to God not just lip-service, but the service of our total being by consecrating our time and life to Him.
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Also, notice this concluding remark from his article, "Rediscovering the Sabbath":
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/sabbath/bacchiocchi.htm
Conclusion
At a time when the Sabbath has come under the crossfire of controversy—being attacked not only by Sundaykeepers but also by some former Sabbatarians—it is reassuring to know that there are many Christians who are rediscovering the Sabbath as God's gift to the human family. Our survey has shown that an increasing number of scholars, religious organizations, and Christians in general are rediscovering the meaning and value of the Sabbath for their lives. These Christians are discovering that the values of the Sabbath as a day for spiritual, physical, moral, and social renewal are essential for revitalizing the religious experience of millions of Christians today.
Rediscovering the Sabbath in this cosmic age provides the basis for a cosmic faith, a faith which embraces and unites creation, redemption, and final restoration; the past, the present, and the future; man, nature, and God; this world and the world to come. It is a faith that recognizes God's dominion over the whole creation and human life by consecrating to Him the seventh day; a faith that fulfills the believer's true destiny in time and eternity; a faith that allows the Savior to enrich our lives with a larger measure of His presence, peace, and rest.
Again, another Gospel, the day is not the "god" that saves. Jesus fulfills and is the Sabbath Rest, He is the pure Gospel message.
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Now let the Bible speak not through Samuele but through Paul:
Hebrews 3:12-4:11 (New International Version)
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
Hebrews 4
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
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And Baccchiocchi's message was that all the Jewish festivals are still valid for Christians today. This, in order to validate sabbath is quite a stretch, IMO.
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On March 15 on this thread:
http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus … 3#POST3053
Bob Shields said: "Tom has insight the rest of us don't have. Maybe he is the new SDA prophet and doesn't want to reveal his identity. Or maybe he has the peculiar ability to read the Scriptures between the lines, something the rest of us can't do".
Tom answered:
"Ha! Anyone that seriously studies the Bible and church history for 40 years had better gain some insight and knowledge. Otherwise, it would be a major waste of time.
Moreover, many of those years were spent in examining the SDA prophet and the institution that was supposed to represent her. Such rare access and study is also a source of great insight and knowledge about a very difficult and suppressed subject.
But guess what? I did not do this for my own personal pleasure. I was doing it to help the Advent Movement. AS SOON AS I DISCOVERED THE HIDDEN DOCUMENTS IN THE ARCHIVES AND WHITE ESTATE, I SHARED THIS INFORMATION WITH THE CHURCH LEADERS.
Little did I know that they did not want this information to become public. And this is why they continued to cover up the true facts associated with the 1888 debates. To this very day, the White Estate refuses to confess and tell the truth about Ellen White. But I have determined to tell the truth and not allow this fraud to stand".
Show us some of those hidden documents Tom. I think that we need to see them for ourselves.
Thanks,
Cadge
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Show us some of those hidden documents Tom. I think that we need to see them for ourselves.
I invite Tom to correct me if I am wrong, but I thought he said that all the material is now public. On the White Estate site one can find all the 1888 materials which used to be unpublished.
As I understand the account, we have Tom to thank for these materials now being available.
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So, now what's the big deal.
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Don, I just assumed that from this statement by Tom---"To this very day, the White Estate refuses to confess and tell the truth about Ellen White"---that there are more "hidden documents", that he has seen and that we have not, that would unquestionably prove the reversal of Ellen Whites pre 1844 position on the first angels message and the IJ and perhaps many other concerns that add to the confusion in the SDA church.
Cadge
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Cadge,
We shall await Tom's clarification. :-)
You mention Ellen White's pre 1844 position. Did you mean pre 1844, or a later date? Of course before 1844, Ellen was Ellen Harmon. She was a mere teenager with a yet undefined message and ministry.
Tom's insistence that the first angels message was a proclamation only of the Second Coming has some validity, as I understand it. I have not yet found any later usage of the first message to be applied to the Sanctuary in heaven, at least not from the first generation Adventists.
I think the issue is a tempest in a teapot. The Adventism I support recognizes the stand of the pioneers but is not afraid to push for new understandings.
EGW led the way in that kind of forward thinking. She said of E. J. Waggoner that he presented the message far better than she could.
The more I read of the early pioneers, the more I think that Tom has constructed an Adventism that never existed. Here is what I mean:
Adventism has always acknowledge the 2300 days as ending in 1844; thus they have applied the Year-Day Principle to Daniel 8 and 9.
Adventism, by the later part of the 1800's strongly opposed a lifestyle of using wine.
Adventism, since the 1870's has supported the tithing concept to further the church's work.
Adventist administrators have usually been the last to support innovation and new spiritual concepts. They have been notoriously bad at treating those in their employ. The turn of the century from 1800 to 1900 illustrates the problem well.
Don
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Don, apparantly Ellen White picked up on and continued with the prophetic understandings of William Miller.
Seventh-Day Adventists/Expert Profile
Expertise:
(http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484/Seventh-Day-Adventists/Tom-Norris.htm
"I can answer most any question about church history and theology, starting from 1818 when William Miller articulated the 1st Angels Message that became the foundation of the Adventist Movement. While this first prophetic message terminated in the spring of 1844, it was followed by what Adventists refer to as the 2nd Angels Message, which dates from the spring of 1844 until the great disappointment of October 22, 1844. By 1847, the 3rd Angels Message had been developed and this Sabbatarian theology represents the Seventh-day Adventist Church".
Miller must have thought that the three angels of Rev 14 and the angel of Rev 18 had sounded, or were sounding or how could he have expected the return of the Christ in 1844? If His, Jesus', reward is with Him when He comes, then the judgement, in Millers mind, must have been done too, right? And EGW's also, or in difference, to soon begin, as she had been shown that the vision of Hiram Edson that was written out for the Daystar by Crosier was true concerning the ministry of Jesus leaving the Holy to enter the most Holy to begin the next phase of atonement, being the judgement.
Cadge
Of course, I do not believe any of this because when you look at Rev 14 you have the 144,000 and then the messages that they are to give; the three angels messages.
They give these during the time of trouble such as there never was nor again shall be. People ask, "what is going on"? The First answer is "Fear God and give glory to Him, the hour of His Judgement is come" followed by the others as the churches and state fail to be able to cope and solve the disasters.
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<b><font color="ff0000">Exhibit #1, Cottrell's Letter</font></b> <BR> <BR>This letter from R. F. Cottrell to James White illustrates how the early SDA's viewed the three angels. <BR> <BR><b>Review and Herald, November 25, 1851, page 6 <BR>From Bro. Cottrell.</b> <blockquote>DEAR Bro. WHITE : There is a little company in this place who are trying to " follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." Our hearts were refreshed and encouraged by Bro. Rhodes, who called on us, and held a meeting a week ago. I thank God for the consolation and encouragement I have received from this interview, and hope we may be favored with another visit from, him, or some other of the traveling brethren. <BR> <BR>My early education was such, that I have believed in the personal appearing of Christ, according to the Scriptures, from my youth. <font color="ff0000">In 1843 and 1844, I heard the solemn cry, " The hour of his judgment is come," and though I felt no disposition to oppose it, and thought I loved his righteous appearing,</font> yet I was not disappointed when the time passed by. <BR> <BR>I saw the proclaimers of the Advent in darkness in regard to the commandments of God, and bowing to an institution of Papacy; and perhaps this was the reason I did not believe. <font color="0000ff">But since, I have heard the message of the third angel, which was since the commencement of the Review and Herald,</font> I have reviewed carefully the whole movement, and the solemn inquiry in my mind has been. Was it from Heaven or of men? After some nine months careful and cautious examination. I have just arrived at the decision. <BR> <BR>I believe with all my heart, it was from Heaven. I cannot believe that God would suffer Satan to get up so exact a fulfillment of the prophecies to deceive the lovers of Jesus Christ—those who wait, and look for his appearing. <font color="119911">If any one inquire how I can believe all this, since Christ did not appear according to the expectation of his children, I answer:</font> <BR> <BR><font color="ff0000">We are instructed [Rev. xiv,] that an angel should fly through the midst of heaven, saying, ''Fear God," "for the hour of his judgment is come,"</font> and <font color="0000ff">yet there is time for two other messages to follow in succession, before the Son of man is seen on the white cloud.</font> <BR> <BR>I greatly rejoice that when " the temple of God was opened in heaven," his children on earth saw, by faith, ' the ark of his testament." <BR> <BR>Yours in the blessed hope, <BR> <BR>ROSWELL F. COTTRELL. <BR> <BR>Mill Grove, (N. Y), Oct. 19th, 1851 <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH1851-V02-07/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=" target=_top>http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH1851-V0 2-07/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=</a> 6 <BR> <BR></blockquote>Cottrell brought a depth of experience to the SDA's from his former life as a Seventh-day Baptist. He refused to join the Millerites and was not at all disappointed when October 22 passed by. Afterall, the Millerites kept the Papal institution of Sunday. <BR> <BR>Obviously, he caught on to Adventist terminology quite quickly. His understanding of the three angels agrees with Tom's report to us. <BR><font color="ffffff"><font size="-2">.</font></font>
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The truth of the matter is that what was known, by introduction of Bates, is that the disappointed ones were in the period of a seven years tarrying time that would end in 1851. This time span was know as the time of the midnight cry; "Behold the Bridegroom cometh". This also being the time of the five wise and five foolish virgins. You see, Hiram Edson had claimed that Jesus went from the holy to the most holy to enter into the marriage. This was known as the time of the closed door because anyone who did not recieve these messages and the Sabbath message (supplied by Bates too)were counted with the aspostate churches. <BR> <BR>Ellen claimed to have had a vision that those who refused this message had fallen off the path and could not get back on. She and the rest believed that the end was at hand: <BR> <BR>I submitted on June/3/08, "This program was skewed from the get go. Do you realize that the self proclaimed prophetess decreed a loss of eternal life on those who could not agree with her, could not reconcile her teaching on the "shut door" with the word of God? It,the eternal death sentence that she decreed, wasn't even based on moral turpitude, but on a prophecy that faithful brethren had determined had no solid foundation in biblical truth! <BR> <BR> <BR>Here is the stand of those at that time: <BR> <BR>1. To surrender the Shut Door concept is to move toward outer darkness. James White, 1845: "Brethren J. and C.H. Pearson, and E.C. Clemons, have given up the shut door, and are doing all they can to drag others to outer darkness." <BR> <BR> <BR>As late as 1849, Ellen White wrote: "My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of souls for sinners as used to be. I looked but could not see it for the time of their salvation is past". <BR> <BR>Because she preached and supported this understanding, then she also had to believe that the judgement was on and would be finished by 1851 in the comiing of Jesus to support the scripture that says that when He comes His reward is with Him. <BR> <BR>And this: <BR> <BR>"Then I saw Laodiceans". [THE NOMINAL, OR FIRST-DAY, ADVENTISTS] (THIS BOLDED REFERENCE TO NOMINAL ADVENTISTS ETC. WAS ADDED BY THE WHITE ESTATE ON ITS WEB SITE, NOT BY ME. THESE REPRESENTED GROUPS 2 AND 3) "They will make a mighty effort. Will they get the victory? One who has the truth will chase a thousand, and two will put ten thousand to flight. They are coming to conclusions that bring them into close quarters, and they cannot tell where they be themselves, for they are lost in the foggy, terrible fear that takes hold of them. Anguish of spirit will seize them. Dare they admit that the door is shut? The sin against the Holy Ghost was to ascribe to Satan what belongs to God or what the Holy Ghost has done. They said the shut door was of the devil and now admit it is against their own lives. They shall die the death. Look ye at the Pattern. Follow Him, for He is meek and lowly in heart. Shut your eyes to everything but the present, saving truth."--Manuscript 11, 1850. (Written December 25, 1850, at Paris, Maine.) White Estate Washington, D. C. April 12, 1984 {13MR 301.4} <BR> <BR> <BR>Ellen was extremely emphatic concerning the folowers preperations, She even wrote: "I was pointed to the remnant on the earth. The angel said to them, "Will ye shun the seven last plagues? . . . If so, ye must die that ye may live. Get ready!, get ready!, get ready!. Ye must have a greater preparation than ye now have. . . . Sacrifice all to God. Lay all upon His altar--self, property, and all, a living sacrifice. It will take all to enter glory." {Mar 98.3} <BR> <BR>You see, Ellen believe that within the seven years tarrying time that the judgement for the dead had already started and the judgement for the living was at hand and probation was ready to close , the angels had sounded, persecutions were on the way and, so just to keep our angst up, she claimed that these events would come upon us rapidly and unexpectedly. How soon? "Some here would be food for worms" and others, including herself, would be alive to witness His appearing. <BR> <BR>She believed that the judgement was on and that it was to be over within the seven year envelope. <BR>Now, in her head, did she actually think that the entire Christian world was either supposed to accept this nonsense or be lost within that seven year tarrying time? It would appear so to me. <BR>Cadge
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<b><font color="0000ff">The truth of the matter is that what was known, by introduction of Bates, is that the disappointed ones were in the period of a seven years tarrying time that would end in 1851.</font></b> <BR> <BR>Cadge, can you point us to any writings of Bates where he teaches this seven year period? <BR> <BR>Regarding Ellen White, et al, and the Shut Door, I see the nascent SDA movement in a kind of "fog of war" life. They have believed so conclusively that Jesus would return on October 22, 1844 that their doctrinal limits hung on to that for several years after. I have run across writings of 1850 that indicate the fog clearing and the Shut Door doctrine dissipating. <BR><font color="ffffff"><font size="-2">.</font></font>
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The tarrying time and the time of the shut door are of the same. Bates was not the only one introducing this belief, but he published a booklet supporting this belief and as you will see here it was the common belief of those who held together after "the great disappointment". <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>THE “SHUT–DOOR” REGARDED AS “PRESENT TRUTH” <BR> <BR>The Seventh-day Adventists continued the teaching of the shut door until 1851. It was expected by them that Christ’s ministry in the second apartment would extend over a very limited period. It was inferred by some, from the fact that in the type the high priest sprinkled the blood of the sin-offering upon the mercy-seat seven times, that Christ’s ministry in the most holy place would continue for only seven years. After the seven year period had passed, and nothing had happened to marks its termination, the shut door form of the teaching was relinquished, and the doctrine of the sanctuary as it is now held by the denomination was gradually formed. <BR> <BR>During the years 1844 to 1851 Seventh-day Adventists taught the shut door emphatically and uncompromisingly. It was an outstanding feature of their message. One of the early brethren, E.P. Butler (father of G.I. Butler who later became president of the general conference) wrote to Brother and Sister White as follows: <BR> <BR>“Since I have been converted to the SHUT DOOR, and seventh day Sabbath, I have been out of this town…to try to get off some of the prejudice from other minds, which I so deeply felt in my own. Some have been converted to the present truth, and some prejudice (I trust) removed. I have learned from conversation with others, as well as by past experience, that the Adventists have run their ship, and foundered. They have been running their small boats this way and that way, to see if they could get around it; but have not been able. So they undertake to cover up the ‘land marks’ behind them” …10 <BR>In another letter published in the next issue of the “Review”, the same brother says: <BR> <BR>“I have been greatly blessed in meeting with the Seventh day Sabbath and Shut Door brethren. They hold to the past, and define our present position. I believe they have the truth, and God is leading them by his Spirit.”11 <BR>Another of the brethren wrote as follows: <BR> <BR>“I have from the presentation of this truth, embraced the seventh day Sabbath, and the shut door, as being my last refuge in this dark and gloomy day. … Hence I embrace the ‘Midnight Cry’, the ‘Shut Door’, and the ‘Third Angel’s Message’ as being my last refuge. …”12 <BR> These extracts show the impression made upon the minds of those who listened to the preaching of the pioneers. The leaders themselves called this the “present truth”. Speaking of one who had at first opposed the doctrine, Sister White wrote, “I saw that in Bro. Rhodes’ mouth there had been no guile, in speaking against the present truth relating to the Sabbath and Shut Door.”13 <BR> <BR>Joseph Bates in a tract on the Sanctuary, published in 1850, says, “The present truth, then, of this third angel’s message, is, THE SABBATH AND THE SHUT DOOR.”14 <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw84.htm" target=_top>http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw84.htm</a> <BR> <BR>excerpted from: <BR> <BR>Ellen G. White’s Writings <BR>NOT a Direct Revelation From God <BR>By W.W. Fletcher (1879-1947) <BR>The Signpost, Vol. 22, No. 4, 1988, edited by Keith Moxon
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In 1850, Bates published a tract on the sanctuary. On page 9, he says: "The twenty-three hundred years are complete, ending in the fall of 1844. . . Here his [Christ's] work ceased ministering and mediating for the whole world forever. . . Here the door is shut." <BR> <BR>A study of this tract shows that Bates held that the day of atonement in the sanctuary in heaven began Oct. 22, 1844, and would last seven years, and, of course, end October, 1851. The last six months, the gathering of the saints would occur. He argued all this from the day of atonement as given in Leviticus 16. His argument was mere assumption, lacking proof. But it satisfied him. Elder White and his wife needed so much his influence, and besides, had so much confidence in his knowledge and ability, that they readily accepted his views and wrote in harmony with what he taught. <BR> <BR>Here are the words of Elder Bates about that seven years: <BR> <BR>"The seven spots of blood on the Golden Altar and before the mercy seat, I fully believe, represent the duration of the judicial proceedings on the living saints in the Most Holy, all of which time they will be in their affliction, even seven years; God by his voice will deliver them, 'for it is the blood that maketh the atonement for the soul' (Lev. 17:11). Then the number seven will finish the day of atonement (not redemption). The last six months of this time, I understand, Jesus will be gathering in the harvest with his sickle, on the white cloud." Again: "This is also where the door is shut - at the end of the twenty-three hundred days. The times of the Gentiles are over. Hos. 5:6, 7: 'They shall go with their flocks and their herds to seek the Lord; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them. Now shall a month devour them with their portions.' How evident that this is after the door is shut and Jesus had gone, or withdrawn himself, into the Holiest." Again he says: "As soon as the day of atonement is ended, seven angels come out of the temple with the seven last plagues (vs. 5, 6). This is the duration of the third angel's message in Rev. 14:9-13" ("The Typical and Anti-typical Sanctuary," pp. 10-13, 15, by Joseph Bates, 1850). <BR>Note that the times of the Gentiles were to end at the close of the twenty-three hundred days, in 1844 - their probation ended there! Then the day of atonement would begin, and last seven years. This was to be the duration of the third angel's message - seven years. This was Joseph Bates' theory. Jesus was to begin the atonement in heaven Oct. 22, 1844; it would continue seven years, and of course end in October, 1851. The last six months - May to October - would be the gathering of the saints. It is plain from Mrs. White's writings of that time that she accepted and believed fully in this theory. <BR> <BR>Here is a "vision" given September, 1850, about one year before the seven years were to end: "Some are looking too far off for the coming of the Lord. Time has continued a few years longer than they expected, therefore they think it may continue a few years more. . . I saw that the time for Jesus to be in the Most Holy Place was nearly finished, and that time can not last but a little longer" ("Early Writings," p. 58, ed. 1907). <BR> <BR>Jesus entered the Most Holy, it was claimed, Oct. 22, 1844. In September, 1850, he had been there six years. She at that time says she "saw" that his time to be there was nearly finished! See how exactly this agrees with the theory of Bates, published in the same year (1850)! These two were working together. Each knew what the other believed. Both wrote alike as to the time Jesus would be in the Most Holy Place. Bates said it would end in seven years - October, 1851, or only one year after he wrote. She said that Christ's time to be in the Most Holy Place was nearly finished when she wrote in 1850. Thus it would have been if the theory Bates advanced had been correct. One can easily see how she was blindly led by Bates. What she saw was not what God revealed to her, but what Bates taught her. <BR> <BR>Time has demonstrated that her "visions" was wrong. In 1850, when she wrote it, Jesus had been in the Most Holy Place, according to Advent teaching, only six years; yet she "saw" that his time to be there was nearly finished. But, instead of this being the case, nearly seventy long years have gone by, and, according to Seventh-day Adventist teaching, Jesus is still in the Most Holy Place in the sanctuary in heaven, and the day of probation for sinners has not yet ended! Any candid person will readily admit the error and the utter failure of that "vision." <BR> <BR>But here is another "vision" still worse, written June 27, 1850: "My accompanying angel said, 'Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.'" A little further on she says: "Some of us have had time to get the truth, and to advance step by step, and every step we have taken has given us strength to take the next. But now time is almost finished. . . and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months" ("Early Writings," pp. 64-67). <BR> <BR>In September, 1850, she limited the time to "a few months," "time almost finished," etc. Note how evidently she relied upon Bates' seven years. Had he been correct it would have been only a few months longer. It is clear that the deluded woman sincerely believed in Bates' ideas and interpretations or she never would have dared to write so dogmatically in her "vision" messages. The passing of nearly seventy years has proved her "visions" to be, not a message from God, but the hallucinations of an overwrought mind, the result of her nervous condition. No holy angel ever told her what she claims he did; for he would have told her the truth. The study clearly reveals the fact that her "visions" were simply the product of her own mind, reflecting the views of those around her. <BR> <BR>Miss Sarah B. Harmon, older sister of Mrs. White, in a letter written from Brookfield, N.Y., to Mrs. P.D. Lawrence, July 29 and 30, 1850, <BR> <BR>The Life of Ellen White by D.M. Canright <BR>Chapter 7 - The Shut Door, Or Probation For Sinners Ended Oct. 22, 1844 <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/canright/can7.htm" target=_top>http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/canright/can7.htm</a> <BR> <BR>---------------------------------- <BR>You see, the "vision" of Hiram Edson and the visions of Ellen white were not from our eternal heavenly Father. Jesus did not enter the Most Holy in 1844 for the marriage as Edson says and no vision was given by God to Ellen White of people that rejected the messages of 1844 to 1851 to have fallen of the path and never able to get back on. These "visions" were images projected by satan. It can't be any other way.
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Bill Diehl <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=28&post=3044#POST3044" target=_top>http://www.atomorrow.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?t pc=28&post=3044#POST3044</a> <BR> <BR>To suggest that the Didache is any guide to living for us today is misleading. Even contradictory to Paul's instructions, note this excerpt that Paul condemned: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>8. Don't let your fasting be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and the fifth day of the week; but keep your fast on the fourth and on the preparation (the sixth) day. Neither pray as the hypocrites, but as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, thus pray you: <BR> <BR>"Our Father, who are in heaven, Your name be hollowed; Your kingdom come; Your will be done, as in Heaven, so also on Earth; give us today our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors; and don't lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one; for Yours is the power and the glory for ever and ever." <BR> <BR>Three times in the day pray like this. <BR> <BR><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
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