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Hey, guys, I have for purposes of discussion, made a total clean slate for Neal, Elaine and John to tell me their story that results in salvation that I can tell my friends about. I'm waiting. <BR> <BR>Neal to answer your question about Paul authoring 1 Corinthians, I quote from the NIV intro to 1 Corinthians: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>Paul is acknowledged as the author both by the letter itself (1:1–2; 16:21) and by the early church fathers. His authorship was attested by Clement of Rome as early as a.d. 96, and today practically all NT interpreters concur. The letter was written c. 55 (see chart, p. 2261) toward the close of Paul’s three-year residency in Ephesus (see 16:5–9; Ac 20:31). It is clear from his reference to staying at Ephesus until Pentecost (16:8) that he intended to remain there somewhat less than a year when he wrote 1 Corinthians. <BR><!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.ibsstl.org/niv/studybible/1corinthians.php" target=_top>http://www.ibsstl.org/niv/studybible/1corinthians. php</a>
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I know the history of it. I asked whether YOU believed it was written by Paul. It was a "Yes" or "No" question. <BR> <BR>Do you?
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I believe the statement I gave you. I am not a scholar like you are acting. So whether you like it or not, that is my answer.
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Yes or no.
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<font color="0000ff">I believe the statement I gave you.</font> <BR> <BR>Thats a cop-out. If you had really studies Paul's writings enough to be a self-anointed expert on the New Covenant surely you would be able to read various books of the NT and be able to tell from style and theology whether you PERSONALLY believed Paul had written it or not. <BR> <BR>I want to know what YOU think personally, not be able to say (after I show you some things in 1 Corinthians) "Well, maybe Paul did not write that. I was just going off what I read and cut-and-pasted for you. I don't have any of my OWN opinions on the matter" or something along those lines like you try to do.
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TTTHTFAL, if you don't like my answer, ask another fella.
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You never answered. You posted the opinion of somebody on some website. <BR> <BR>Well, once I get going on Paul's ideas don't cry foul.
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Either produce what you said you would on your own thread or TTTHTFAL. From what I can see you, John and Elaine, have created a lot of negativity about the traditional way to salvation, now I want to hear what you, Neal, Elaine and John have in the way of Eternal Salvation. Haven't seen or heard it from you guys, so lets hear your alternate way......
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Personally I couldn't care less what you want.
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No more analysis of what's wrong with my way, or the Bible way, but positive statements of how one is saved for eternity.
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If you want to believe based on how good the story ends start believing in Allah. Be a suicide bomber and you get to go to paradise IMMEDIATELY and you get the services of 72 virgins to boot! <BR> <BR>Beats what you believe in. What, die, then your spirit takes a long nap, then your spirit wakes up and worships some dude for eternity. No sex, no reunion with your wife's spirit. <BR> <BR>How lame is that? Go for the best story if you're going to go for one at all. Shoot, a week from now you could be partying with a whole harem.
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<font color="0000ff">No more analysis of what's wrong with my way, or the Bible way, but positive statements of how one is saved for eternity.</font> <BR> <BR>Start a new thread. This one's about myths and the virgin birth.
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Is that your final answer? BTW, you're on the wrong thread. Try the one I created as you asked.
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I see the thread. Thanks.
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I can hardly wait for answers, not further analysis and questions, your doubts, but what you really believe, you might even convince me.....
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Since things aren't going too well on the the "Alternate Way to Heaven" I will continue with why the Virgin Birth is essential to Christianity: <BR> <BR> <a href="http://www.gospeloutreach.net/virginbirth.html" target=_top>http://www.gospeloutreach.net/virginbirth.html</a>
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Note this phenomenal two paragraph's of this guy's sermon: <BR> <BR><blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>... <BR> <BR>He loved Mary. And Mary had, you see absolutely no way under the sun to protect her reputation. She's gonna' go out and say, listen folks, uhm, this baby is conceived by God. And they're gonna' say, uh-huh, that's a new one Mary, we've heard .em all, that's a new one. She has no way to protect her reputation. So the blessed Spirit of God protected it for her, right here in the pages of the Word of God. Let there be no reproach on Mary ever. If Jesus is an ordinary man, if Jesus is simply just like all the other men then we can say, He was probably born like all the other men, but He isn't like anybody else, and He wasn't born like anybody else. If He is simply the illegitimate child of Mary's infidelity or if He is the child of Joseph's natural sexual activity with Mary then He is not God, and if He's not God His claims are lies, and if His claims are lies His salvation is a hoax, and if His salvation is a hoax we are damned. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>So Matthew records for us clearly that God entered the flesh by a virgin, in which seed was planted by the Holy Spirit. You say, well how does that work? Don't ask me that. People always want to ask those kind of questions, people always ask the questions you can't answer. I'll never forget the times when I'd be teaching on the Book of Revelation, and I'll say, you know and the Word of God says that the Lord is going to give you a name which no man knows, and invariably someone would come up and say, what is that name? I don't even understand how normal human birth works, and I don't know any Doctor who really understands the mystery of it. Don't ask me how this works. God did it. <BR> <BR>...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/2181" target=_top>http://www.gty.org/Resources/Transcripts/2181</a>
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Bob <BR> <BR>Two things. <BR> <BR>First, heaven was on the dome. If you show me where the dome is I will draw a map to Santa' house or Cinderella's house- either one you want. Without the dome there is no heaven. <BR> <BR>Second, Paul states that Jesus was never a human made of flesh and blood. So Mary gave birth to a spirit in a non-existent city?<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>1 Corinthians 15:45 The first man was named Adam, and the Scriptures tell us that he was a living person. But Jesus, who may be called the last Adam, is a life-giving spirit. <BR> <BR>46 We see that the one with a spiritual body did not come first. He came after the one who had a physical body. <BR> <BR>47 The first man was made from the dust of the earth, but the second man came from heaven. <BR> <BR>48 Everyone on earth has a body like the body of the one who was made from the dust of the earth. And everyone in heaven has a body like the body of the one who came from heaven. <BR> <BR>49 Just as we are like the one who was made out of earth, we will be like the one who came from heaven.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>So, the "second man" (Jesus) came from heaven. Where's the virgin birth?
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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>Don't ask me how this works. God did it.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR><i>Argument from ignorance</i>. This is one of the most common fallacies of believers. <BR> <BR>"We don't know X, therefore God did it". <BR> <BR>Weak. Very, VERY weak.
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<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1><b>quote:</b></font><p>And everyone in heaven has a body like the body of the one who came from heaven.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> <BR> <BR>Also Bob, is God in heaven? If so, El Elyon, God the Father, according to Paul, has a body the same as Jesus'. A spiritual body. <BR> <BR>So much for transcendence.
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Read the whole chapter, in the Amplified Version: <BR> <BR><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015%20" target=_top>http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Co rinthians%2015%20</a>;&version=45; <BR> <BR>It talks of Jesus, being live-giving, and conquering death. If He came from Heaven, He is not an ordinary man that an ordinary birth would create. There is the Virgin Birth!!!
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Neal, I want answers about an alternate answer, not more critique. You promise to give me an answer if I created a new thread, now you are back here being defensive. Read the whole chapter, Jesus was from heaven, and life giving unlike Adam. He is God/man, produced by a virgin.
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<font color="0000ff">You promise to give me an answer if I created a new thread....</font> <BR> <BR>I did give you an answer. <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">Read the whole chapter, Jesus was from heaven, and life giving unlike Adam.</font> <BR> <BR>The passage states that, unlike Adam, Jesus didn't have a flesh & blood body but had a spiritual body. <BR> <BR><font color="0000ff">He is God/man, produced by a virgin.</font> <BR> <BR>Paul never said a word about a virgin birth. He also denied that Jesus had a physical body like humans. He was from heaven and had a body like everybody in heaven. Flesh and blood cannot be in heaven, remember?
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That is not an alternate answer but further critique that is talking about His conquering death and His ability to save all the righteous at the end of time. He in another epistle talks of a Christ "being borne of a woman". Discernment and study gives a different answer to my alternative. You do not give another alternative to eternal life. By Christ resurrection, and Thomas being able to touch the scars in his hand, shows he was God/man, because of His virgin birth. HE CONQUER DEATH SO WE CAN BE RESURRECTED WHEN HE RETURNS. <BR> <BR>Yes he was from heaven sent by God: <BR> <BR><b><font color="0000ff">Galatians 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, <BR></font></b> <BR> <BR>(Message edited by Bob_2 on April 21, 2009)
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Also, God said let us make man in our image, so there is some similarity to us, only they can exist as spirit, in our current bodies we can not be transported to heaven until that change into a similar body He has in heaven. Read the purpose of the WHOLE chapter of I Corinthians 15. You got it all wrong. He conquered DEATH. What's your alternative to that, conquering DEATH.
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