Good Question! How could God massacre/annihilate the Canaan

elaine · 04-08-09 9:26 pm

It is ignorance of the contents of the Bible that would lead to be belief that the Bible is a "single story." It is an anthology: many books that were not compiled into a single book until the third century B.C. when the Greek Septuagint was written. Even then, it contained some books not in our Hebrew Bible today, and some that were not included. For anyone to speak of the Bible so simplisticly, demonstrates little knowledge of how it was written, the dates and authors and the long time before we have the Bible we have today. It was only orally transmitted for most of its history, and the Septuagint (in Greek) was the only Bible available, quoted in the NT. One can be a faithful believer and yet not fear reading about how the Bible we have today was eventually compiled. It's an interesting story. It should be apparent that no single writer could possibly have written so many contradictions, told similar stories differently, and duplications are easily seen. There are at least two stories and two recordings of the Ten Commandment; there are two separate stories of the Creation that greatly differ. Those are only a very few of the exhibits that there are numerous writers.

george · 04-08-09 9:44 pm

Well, guys, you know how that goes - you pick a text here and another one there and put them together for whatever story you had in mind to present to begin with. That's why there are so many different takes on all the issues. It all depends on what texts you put together and ignore the rest. On a slightly different point, I've never understood why Christians, who are supposed to "follow Christ," then go back and try to get direction from the very same sources Christ came to correct. Obviously whatever the OT crowd did and believed, didn't work. Why are we still hung up on their perceptions?

pilgrim99 · 04-08-09 10:54 pm

I am surprised that many seemingly educated folks appear to be Biblically illiterate. Maybe that is what happens when one follows blind guides. If anyone has an interest in a non agnostic viewpoint, here is an extract from an easy to read article, part of a larger study.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:The Bible is unique! It is not enough to say that it is a unique Book, for it is a collection of sixty-six ancient Books. Moreover, this unique collection of Books is bound together by a central theme and a unity of purpose which makes the books into One Book.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> The article can be seen here <a href="http://bible.org/page.php?page_id=2511" target=_top>The Authority of the Bible.</a> The series is titled <a href="http://bible.org/series.php?series_id=132" target=_top>The God Who Speaks To Man.</a> I was not born a believer, for a good part of my life I was an an enemy of God, making fun of believers and belittling their intelligence, but thanks be to God that he sent His Son to seek and find a filthy sinner like me. Now I am glad to be considered worthy of being a fool for Christ. I agree with John the Baptist, as a fellow, yet insignificant witness. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:A man came, sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify about the light, so that everyone might believe through him. He himself was not the light, but he came to testify about the light. The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was created by him, but the world did not recognize him. He came to what was his own, but his own people did not receive him. But to all who have received him – those who believe in his name – he has given the right to become God’s children – children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God. John 1:6-13 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I give thanks and imperfect praise to the One whose singular story and singular plan for mankind is revealed in His written Word.

pilgrim99 · 04-08-09 11:02 pm

Renie said:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Well, guys, you know how that goes - you pick a text here and another one there and put them together for whatever story you had in mind to present to begin with. That's why there are so many different takes on all the issues. It all depends on what texts you put together and ignore the rest.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>That's a great observation. I too have found this to be true. In fact this is one of the reasons that I fellowship in a congregation that makes a point of studying the entire Bible, book by book, chapter by chapter, and verse by verse. This ensures that the full counsel of God is taught, as opposed to the pastors pet and sometimes un-biblical doctrines.

pilgrim99 · 04-08-09 11:12 pm

Elaine, The Judaeo Christian view of the Creator is radically different from that of all other religious worldviews, which you seem to acknowledge, and then summarily dismiss. I don't seem to remember calling for a religious test. I am simply seeking acknowledgment that this nation was founded on Judaeo Christian principles. In contrast with what the POTUS said. I also agree that we are fast losing the knowledge of our founding principles and are destined for a future dominated by tyranny, where each man does what seems right in his own eyes. I pray for the soon return of my King.

john8verse32 · 04-08-09 11:28 pm

King? interesting, isnt it, that we still refer to God or Jesus as "King".... when monarchies around the world have been deposed, discredited, or relegated to ceremonial status.... why don't we upgrade the title of Jesus to President of the Universe? because so much of our understanding is wrapped up in tradition, that's why!!! in front of a king, you must genuflect, like Obama did in fromt of the Saudi King... and in bowing, and kneeling down, you are showing not just deference, but you are admitting your powerless condition in front of such king, so much that you expose your neck in case the king wants your head lopped off!!!

bob_2 · 04-09-09 12:52 am

President doesnt' have the authority, Legislature, and Judiciary share the authority. King maybe more accurate, not the emasculated type of today, but when they really had some power.

george · 04-09-09 6:26 am

AS I recall Jesus called God, Abba = Daddy; and then there's the "Lord's Prayer" with the same designation, as Father. That puts a whole different spin on things. Our relationship to a king is far different as it would be to a loving father. That's what I meant before - the king designation is straight out of the OT and its culture, and we ignore the change in attitude and message Jesus brought. For a Christian, Jesus is the embodiment of God. A despot king might order whole communities wiped out, but can anyone imagine Jesus giving such an order. He came to show us God and His character when he said, "You've seen me, you have seen the Father." (Message edited by sirje on April 09, 2009) (Message edited by sirje on April 09, 2009)

bob_2 · 04-09-09 10:51 am

For those that have had abusive fathers, "Father" has it's problems getting through, eh???

john8verse32 · 04-09-09 11:44 am

so would you rather think of God as a benevolent dictator? ...if only He had not encouraged the ancient Hebrews to write all those violent, non-benevolent stories about Him..... ..rumor is, He even tried to kill Moses while he schlepped his way to Egypt to liberate the hebrews!!!! you don't suppose this may have flavored Moses writing in the 5 first books of the Bible attributed to him, do you? Either way, didn't God break His promise to Moses..to lead him INto the promised land? ....because Moses lost his cool and pounded on a rock demanding water instead of just talking to it and asking nicely, God watched him croak on top of a mountain...just to punish him!!!! changed His mind!!! said...you'll never see the promised land!!! it may even have happened twice.... on two different mountains, we're not sure which one since there are multiple and different versions. But either mountain, it was good for Moses to at least be able to write about his own funeral, either before, or after.

bob_2 · 04-09-09 12:09 pm

I think you have to be conscious of the audience how you refer to God/Jesus. It is my understanding about Hindus that calling God, Father, is getting too familar with the Almighty. Father, King, Judge, High Priest, Mediator, all work for me, but like I said I like to find out what the context of the audience is.

george · 04-09-09 3:03 pm

Bob, I don't think Jesus was concerned with the audience when He directed us to pray "OUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN ..." John, OK, I've heard your spiel many times before. If Jesus came to show us the Father then he kinda nullified that whole OT idea of a god leading the charge into Canaan. I think that the OT stories are just that, stories to back up whatever stuff those Israelites were up to (as you have so often pointed out). Jesus corrected that image for us, but we keep going back an pulling out that Jewish War God. Jesus (and the entire NT) does refer back to the OT when discussing Jesus and his mission but the original Christians were pretty much all Jews, saturated with images of that "war god"; and Jesus references to the OT were on the same level as Paul expanding, for the Greeks, their idea of an "unknown god". The problem is that we have all been taught to believe that the OT gives Jesus and the entire NT its meaning, while its more about Jesus and the NT giving the OT some meaning - for the Jews, who's entire existence was regulated by the LAW AND THE PROPHETS, both religiously and culturally. What else would Jesus have referenced when talking to them about his mission? Yes, it is problematic that all fathers are not the kind you want emulate. For Jesus, God is the ideal FATHER, in the vein of fatherhood as understood back in his day (and ours, for that matter). We surely know when fathers are not living up to their (even sacred) role, so we should be able to extrapolate and imagine what kind of father Jesus is talking about.

john8verse32 · 04-09-09 3:24 pm

...he kinda nullified that whole OT idea and THAAAT is good news!!!!....but which we somehow never understood.

george · 04-09-09 3:54 pm

John, there's so much we never understood. Are you surprised? You know how we were all taught that the entire Christendom beyond the holy triangle from Andrews to Loma Linda to Silver Springs (for us it was Takoma Park) back to Andrews was corrupt and had no idea what TRUTH was... It has only recently become clear to me that the TRUTH of the GOSPEL lies just outside of that triangle. Only now that the internet has knocked down the barriers, has the Gospel begun to penetrate Adventism. Ford put a crack in the wall surrounding our special truths and the floodgates opened and nothing will ever be the same. I think the problem now is that those of us who bought the whole package feel reticent to believe anything uttered by anyone in a pulpit. So, maybe God can't be contained by stained glass and mortar. As Paul says, "God does not dwell in temples made with hands." (Acts17:24). So, keep diving and flying and searching those rocks - I think you're on to something there. (Message edited by sirje on April 09, 2009)

bob_2 · 04-10-09 1:00 am

Sirje, when trying to convert a Hindu, you need to understand their belief system to meet their needs and present God so they understand who He is and what He offers otherwise they shut down befor your presentation is barely started. The OT shows traits of God that we think are obsolete. He will destroy and show wrath to destroy sin, just like he did more directly in the OT, IMO. The Gospel means different things to different people. New Covenant Theology puts Sabbath in its proper place, with Jesus as our true Gospel Rest, but that is not the way the Gospel is presented by all.

renie · 04-10-09 11:38 am

Unfortunately, the OT isn't the only place where God looks bad. Check out Revelation. renie

bob_2 · 04-10-09 12:44 pm

Renie, not trying to be argumentative, but the God I believe in is a just God who will, as promised purge the earth of sin. That is not a God that looks bad in my opinion. Unfortunately, the progressive left, anything violent or destructive is bad. Any words spoken loud are abusive, and possibilitiy of destroying even evil life is considered not coming or capable of coming from a loving God. Sorry, that, IMO, is a one sided look at a righteous God.

elaine · 04-10-09 5:50 pm

How else should we think of God when we read in the OT that he repented for creating man and destroyed them all, save 8? Or when he ordered the total destruction of tribes, including the innocent women and babies? Or when he allowed Satan to destroy all of Job's wealth, kill all his children and then infect him with boils? Is that the God you choose to worship? So all-powerful he can strike you dead for merely being a child of a good man, Job? What did his children ever do to deserve death? How can a rational person justify such dastardly deeds? All, simply to "test" Job? Then, to have new children given you, as though they can ever replace the ones taken from you. Surely, in this book of the Bible, God is all-powerful and in charge of everthing. Today, we know that He can't stop hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, floods, tsunmais. Who sends them? Is God no longer in control as he once was? If your child is suddenly stricken with a fatal disease or an inoperable brain tumor, do you thank God for sending this? It it is not God, then he is no longer in control; it can't be both. Either he is all-powerful and in control of everything, or he is not all powerful and controls nothing. Where is the evidence that he controls anything today? Don't people still get sick and die, innocent babies starve and die? He's either God, or he's impotent. Which is it? It's not agnostics who ask such questions, sincere Christians also can't explain. Can you?

pilgrim99 · 04-10-09 6:50 pm

Elaine, Is it possible that God had a plan to save you and me, along with ALL who freely choose to believe? Any interference with, or disruption of that plan, by any tribe, nation, group,or individual, would have left us without any hope. All who have comitted even a single sin, in thought, word or action, and even inaction are guilty, and deserving of death. There is no one who dies undeserving of eternal death. Tragically, yes, worthy of grief, yes. In fact, without the new life that God gives, we are actually born already dead, kind of like dead men and women walking around. The wages of sin (singular) is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Those are the rules. If you don't like them feel free to speak your own world into existence and run it by your rules. As for God's supposed inability to control nature. You obviously are not referring to the God of the Bible. The god that you refer to is obviously a creation of human imagination. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with this account of a single act of the God of the Bible. Note, no fuss, no might, no magic waving of a magic wand, simply speaking to His creation. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:On that day, when evening came, Jesus said to his disciples, “Let’s go across to the other side of the lake.” So after leaving the crowd, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat, and other boats were with him. Now a great windstorm developed and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was nearly swamped. But he was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. They woke him up and said to him, “Teacher, don’t you care that we are about to die?” So he got up and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Be quiet! Calm down!” Then the wind stopped, and it was dead calm. And he said to them, “Why are you cowardly? Do you still not have faith?” They were overwhelmed by fear and said to one another, “Who then is this? Even the wind and sea obey him!” Mark 4:35-41<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Who do you believe Jesus to be? It seems that you might not be aware that ever since the entry of sin into the world, nature itself has been under a curse<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:But to Adam he said, “Because you obeyed your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you,‘You must not eat from it,’cursed is the ground thanks to you; in painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, but you will eat the grain of the field. Genesis 3:17,18 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Additional details are available in Genesis. Paul also referred to this curse in Romans<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility – not willingly but because of God who subjected it – in hope that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God’s children. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers together until now. Not only this, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we eagerly await our adoption, the redemption of our bodies. For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope, because who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with endurance. Romans 8:19-25 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Christian believers (bondservants of their King)are looking forward to the time when the curse which was given in Genesis will be lifted and the correct order of all things, including nature, will be restored. In the very last chapter of the last book in the Bible, we read:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life – water as clear as crystal – pouring out from the throne of God and of the Lamb, flowing down the middle of the city’s main street. On each side of the river is the tree of life producing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month of the year. Its leaves are for the healing of the nations. And there will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and the Lamb will be in the city. His servants will worship him, and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. Night will be no more, and they will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, because the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever. Revelation 22:1-5 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I'm sure that you want to be there, don't you?

bob_2 · 04-10-09 7:22 pm

Good words Devon. "God never promised you a rose garden." If there is identifiable evil then there must be a "GOOD" God. Otherwise how do you recognize evil? Those destroyed in the Flood, had free will to obey, not sin, get on the boat, after being preached to for 100 years. God I am sure regrets anyone that choses dust and death over life for eternity. Free will in man give the potentiality of sin. Natural disasters and their results sometimes, usually, are given to test their belief in God under pressure. Is your argument, God can't exist if He tests people or if evil prevails occasionally, but good triumphs in the end???

elaine · 04-10-09 7:43 pm

Avoidance of the questions raised by giving a sermon, does not answer the questions. What am I supposed to be saved FROM? Has someone threatened my life? Who declared that all humans are guilty and deserving of death? Was it not the same one who offers a fire escape? Why not simply not set the fire ablaze in the first place? If God is omnipotent, but incapable of forgiveness without blood shed, who made such requirements? Is it impossible for God to forgive sin without shedding blood? Who says? Who made the laws which God is bound by? If God made the law against murder, why did he murder innocents as recorded in the Bible? Is he above the law? What is God's reason for creating ? If he had a reason to inflict fatal punishment, does he delight in killing? How does eternal punishment improve those punished? If it's for their benefits, they are unable to do so if they're dead. If your child disobeys (sins), will you execute him? What is your punishment? Is it for discipline or retribution? How could you or any parent enjoy Heaven if his children were outside burning in ? If "Nature" is under a curse, who gave and administered it? Was it impossible for God not to forgive Adam & Eve without cursing them and their descendants--descendants who before birth became sinners? How can an innocent baby be called a sinner? Why should a loving God condemn an innocent baby to death? Is holding some hope for the unknown "future" sufficient to endure millennia of suffering? Are God's hands tied and he has turned over this earth to evil forces? Why didn't the Israelites consider "evil forces" for the many problems they endured? They all expressed that God sent both the good and evil. When did this change? Is God still in charge of both good and evil and decides, willy-nilly, who will benefit today and who will suffer? Can you explain why both the good and bad people suffer alike? What difference is there? THe Bible says the rain falls on the just and unjust, so we are all the same, aren't we? What and how do you explain Job? Didn't God cause all his problems? Why? He was simply a pawn, according to the story in the Bible. OTOH, the writer of Eccelesiastes is more realistic: "Go then, eat your bread in happiness, and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works...For this is your reward in life...for there is no activity or planning or wisdom in Shel where you are going." Odd, how seldom this is quoted today.

pilgrim99 · 04-10-09 8:25 pm

Elaine, So many questions. May I suggest that you start witha study of the Gospel of John? You don't really want to be one of those who are ever learning, yet never come to a knowledge of the Truth. As a teacher once told me, 'Truth is not Truth, until it's truth to you." Someone else said 'a person convinced against their will, remains unconvinced." You really need to take the time to discover for yourself. Eccelesiastes gives a narrative based on man's various worldviews, "under the sun." At one time or another, we have all embraced an "under the sun" philosophy. BTW, that was not a sermon, just an 20,000 foot view of the singular story found in the Bible. Peace Devon

pilgrim99 · 04-10-09 8:32 pm

Bob, Thanks, the words were mostly from the Bible. Those writers wrote many great words. I'm not sure I understand your question at the end.

elaine · 04-10-09 9:50 pm

But John doesn't agree at all with the other three gospels. So, which is on the "True" one?

bob_2 · 04-10-09 9:58 pm

Elaine, this rolls off your pen so easy because of that atheistic/skeptical library you are building and reading. God is the creator. He and His Son have a plan of Salvation FROM SIN. You unique in Fresno don't need saving. God gave free will choice, that free will choice is why we are in the fix we are in. <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Romans 5:17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Your skeptical books don't have the answer, Salvation is outlined only in one book, the Word of God. You love to tear it apart, then wonder why you have no answers. You puzzle me Elaine, you box yourself in. You create a no win situation of your own device. Devon, the question at the end was for Elaine: Is your argument, God can't exist if He tests people or if evil prevails occasionally, but good triumphs in the end??? If once in a while sin prevails, God is bad. Even if His reason is to test us and our devotion to him. Is His way wrong when that happens and then works it all to good in the end. Does that make you angry as one of His created beings, Elaine??? Your problem, garbage in garbage out.

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