Is There Any Give in Adventist Doctrine?

george · 02-11-09 10:46 pm

The time period we're talking about comprises what in other cultures might be considered a national epic - stories handed down and retold for generations. Isn't it only later that these stories were put into a religious context and made part of some sort of scripture? There's a difference between a universal God, on the one hand, and the perception of a small group that that God is interested exclusively in them - directing their conquests and rewarding and punishing only them with defeat and success. It seems that the character of this exclusive God does not match what the NT later reveals about Him through Jesus. We can talk about righteous indignation but would God require more of us than what He can demonstrate? If God wants us to forgive 70X7 and turn the other cheek, and the rest of the attributes of the Sermon on the Mount, surly He, himself, would be seen dealing with His children in the same manner. It seems to me that the Hebrew, as they later became known, had an agenda - a vision as a people and they attributed their successes and failures to their personal God. Lest we forget, they didn't get it right. This is graphically demonstrated by Job's comforters who parroted the accepted views about suffering and God's dealings with us, BUT THEY WERE WRONG. Job, rather than being patient, stood up for God, in one respect, as he rejected those comforters; and in another respect he challenged God on the basis of the current understanding of how a God deals with man - punishing the wicked and blessing the obedient. Job's experience didn't compute as part of that OT system of justice, and God, when He spoke (or Job thought about it) negated all that this culture believed about God. Why would we then believe, lock-step, in all the gore and mayhem as being from a God who loved and cared for only one small group of people, willing that the rest of humanity grovel in ignorance?

elaine · 02-12-09 12:31 am

Before the Hebrews were taken captive to Babylon they gave little evidence of a very civilized or united people. Probably only a very few of them could read or write. In their own history one never hears of the early books of the Bible being read; the first mention of a book is in the time of Josiah. The Babylonian captivity civilized them and consolidated them. They returned aware of their own literature, an acutely self-conscious and political people. THe early Bible stories are closely parallel with similar Babylonian legends; they seem to have been part of the common beliefs of all the Semetic peoples. The stories of Moses and and Samson have Sumerian and Babylonian parallels. It was in Babylon that the Hebrew people got their history together and evoloved their tradition. The people who came back to Jerusalem at the command of Cyrus were a very different people from those who had gone into captivity. They had learned civilization.

roca · 02-12-09 2:27 pm

Elaine wrote: Ron, at the time the Bible covered, there was no "religion" but a group of people who were not called Jews initially. They were an ethnic group that claimed to be chosen by their god. Even most of this world's history they have been better known as a specific ethnicity, not by their religious beliefs as the majority are secular and non-practicing any religion. Elaine maybe you should simply stop using words like "all religion" and "no religion". I can't believe that any of your professors would condone such as statement as you made above. Well actually I can there are frankly a lot of stupid professors out there. I heard one guy on NPR today who started out so good on the history of law and then showed his complete ignorance when he turned to economics and recent history.

elaine · 02-12-09 4:59 pm

Ron, you'll have to play the role of professor because I have none now, and haven't for several years. The term "religion" is used rather loosely to describe what humans seem to have believed. It is used for those who believe in a supernatural, a god, or gods who are in control. Under that rubric, which is how I used it, most beliefs have not been formalized until the Hebrews and Christians got "civilized" and gave it authority of hierarchy they adhered to. Buddhism, Hinduism, and older beliefs were not nearly so structured, but were taught and became a way of life for those in such areas where they predominated. Even Adventism began before formal organization, and most systems were comparable. How would you describe "religion" other than the dictionary definition which is what I used?

elaine · 02-12-09 5:22 pm

Hubb, you wrote: "God does not "prove" anything. He offers evidence." Well, not exactly. God needs no proof. It is man who has either defended or tried to justify belief in God. The Bible is only one way that man has attempted to justify and confirm a preconceived belief. Other sacred texts: Veda, Upanishad, and the Bhagavad-Gita ("The Song of the Lord") and the Mahabharata. In the Upanishad, liberation would shine forth "only in a man who has the deepest love for God and who shows the same love towards his teacher." The Bible is only one of numerous texts held sacred by different peoples: some predating the Bible by centuries. There is a wealth of good found in all cultures, not just the Judeo-Christian. We have been taught to believe that Christianity is the only way to God, but that is only because it is part of our heritage. All other peoples also have a long, or longer heritage of belief in a system. Is it hubris to think that God only recognizes our choice?

bob_2 · 02-12-09 8:59 pm

So, God creates man, in Eden, but he expects Salvation to have different versions just because of geograpical location???? Come on, curiosity, common sense and losing the pride. This is not about Western versus Eastern cultures. It is about truth, it isn't subjective, Elaine, sorry. Christ dies and around the world, subjective ideas about what it means are OK? Sheeeeeeeeesh!!!

roca · 02-12-09 9:29 pm

It is ok Elaine you seem to be drifting but I don't want to float away with you. I guess I should have simply said that you were using logical fallacies and left it there.

pilgrim99 · 02-12-09 11:42 pm

Bob, Once you realize that Elaine is a comparative religion student, it becomes easier to understand her perspective. It does seem that Jesus does not agree with her worldview:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I have made a conscious choice to place my life in the hands of Jesus; He gives no room for a middle ground. That said, I still believe that Elaine is a nice person.

maggie · 02-13-09 12:34 am

That said, I still believe that Elaine is a nice person. But, do you believe that God is going to burn her alive? Would YOU burn her alive if God told you to? Nice isn't good enough.

maggie · 02-13-09 1:02 am

The Amish are nice. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSHH-moPLEo&feature=related" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSHH-moPLEo&feature =related</a> How do you know it wasn't really God's wrath being poured on those Amish children? Nice...and doomed....

pilgrim99 · 02-13-09 1:35 am

Maggie, I would never physically burn Elaine, or anyone else. I'm not quite sure why you asked these questions. It is not my role to judge her heart or destiny. Man looks at the outward appearance, but only God can truly see the heart. All I can discern is that she is a nice person. Do you believe that there is any way to the Father other than through Jesus?

bob_2 · 02-13-09 1:47 am

Maggie, you need to get off your "burned alive" kick since you are so spooked by what punishment might be as predicted in the Bible. Ultimately, hell will be eternal separation from God. There will be a gradation of punishment as SDA theology as always taught, whether your sensitivities allow for it or not. If it helps, I promise never to put your name in a thread header about the issue again, but that doesn't take away the reality of God is going to purge the world of evil. Which will you choose????

pilgrim99 · 02-13-09 1:50 am

Maggie, As for the Amish girls, I am not a supporter in any way of the Phelps clan. Although I personally am deserving of death, as a result of my sins, I can't judge anyone else. I continue to give thanks to God for the gift of eternal life, and for each day that I draw breath under the sun. This incident is the result of a mad, depraved person. God does not authorize individuals to render judgment and to act in this manner.

maggie · 02-13-09 2:24 am

Bob, I'm not the one who believes God is going to burn billions of people alive. You are. I remain unspooked, despite your steadfast and valiant efforts. I'm merely making explicit what is implicit in the whole Christian system.

maggie · 02-13-09 2:25 am

God does not authorize individuals to render judgment and to act in this manner. OK, Neal & John, do your thing. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0>

maggie · 02-13-09 2:31 am

I would never physically burn Elaine, or anyone else. I'm not quite sure why you asked these questions. It is not my role to judge her heart or destiny. The Father of the Faithful raised his knife to slay his innocent son at the behest of Jehovah. Would your faith falter if God asked you to slay someone? Would you argue with God, or would you gather rope and faggots and trudge up the mountain? Would it be in your heart to please yourself or God? No need to answer if you don't wish to. I'm merely making explicit and immediate what is implicit in your religion.

maggie · 02-13-09 2:36 am

Do you believe that there is any way to the Father other than through Jesus? Do you believe that Jesus is the Light that lights every person in the world?

bob_2 · 02-13-09 3:35 am

Maggie, is there something in your background that only allows you to talk about burned alive instead of the wicked being annhilated, SDA theology, burned until consumed, but to put it in the worst, possible visual words. Why not choose to be saved, instead of lost then you don't have to worry about the fires of hell, whatever it will be. Get off your morbid kick and look to Jesus and be saved. Is there going to be a purging,you bet, is there going to be gnashing of teeth, for those wicked that torture other humans, that try to destroy the New Jersusalem and admit,God was just in his decision to destroy sin, why are you so obsessed with the punishment than the reward. You seem to identify with those that aren't going to make it rather than those that will be glorified. Why is that????

george · 02-13-09 5:11 am

What's with the idea that there will be people saved who have never even heard the name of Jesus? I believe that's a position of the church. And so I have a question - if Adam's sin is attributed to ALL without everyone even hearing about Adam, isn't Christ's victory also attributable to ALL, even if they've never heard his name? It's all well and good if we speak from our lofty position of being lucky enough to have been born into a Christian environment. How would you feel about God's justice if you were born into some pagan culture, and because the "evangelists" never made it to your village, you will be disintegrated in the end since no one told you about Christ? Is our salvation "in Christ" dependent on the whims of some missionary? (Message edited by sirje on February 13, 2009)

maggie · 02-13-09 9:33 am

Maggie, is there something in your background that only allows you to talk about burned alive instead of the wicked being annhilated, SDA theology, burned until consumed, but to put it in the worst, possible visual words. How do you say, "God is going to burn billions of people alive," nicely? ...why are you so obsessed with the punishment than the reward. Because the "reward" is spending eternity with a god who just burned billions of people alive. You seem to identify with those that aren't going to make it rather than those that will be glorified. Why is that???? Isn't that what you believe Jesus did by dying on the Cross?

maggie · 02-13-09 9:37 am

...you will be disintegrated in the end.... That doesn't sound as bad as being burned alive. That's why we use euphemisms - so we can avoid the emotional impact of saying what's really on our minds. But you make good points, I think, Sirje.

maggie · 02-13-09 9:49 am

Bob, why not just call it God's Ultimate Solution, a la Hitler? <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Hitler was able to convince a Nation that genocide was the answer to all their perceived ‘problems’, how could he do this? Because the nation was ready to be seduced and they were. Have we not become what we hate?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I don't believe wrathful genocide on a scale never witnessed before is the answer to The Human Problem. I think believing in a God who is not resourceful enough to think of a better solution is a big part of The Human Problem. It's impossible for me to distinguish God from the Devil when I imagine that scene. Just my opinion.

pilgrim99 · 02-13-09 10:10 am

Maggie, Truthfully, I probably would not have had the faith of Abraham. That's why Abraham is listed in the faith hall of fame in Hebrews 11. I'm probably listed in the 'ye of little faith hall of shame.' When we look at the passage in Genesis that talks about Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac, we see a beautiful picture of God providing for Himself a sacrifice in Jesus.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Some time after these things God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!” “Here I am!” Abraham replied. God said, “Take your son – your only son, whom you love, Isaac – and go to the land of Moriah! Offer him up there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will indicate to you.” Early in the morning Abraham got up and saddled his donkey. He took two of his young servants with him, along with his son Isaac. When he had cut the wood for the burnt offering, he started out for the place God had spoken to him about. On the third day Abraham caught sight of the place in the distance. So he said to his servants, “You two stay here with the donkey while the boy and I go up there. We will worship and then return to you.” Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and put it on his son Isaac. Then he took the fire and the knife in his hand, and the two of them walked on together. Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father?” “What is it, my son?” he replied. “Here is the fire and the wood,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?” “God will provide for himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son,” Abraham replied. The two of them continued on together. Genesis 22 1-9 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Was Abraham lying to Isaac? or did he believe the promises that God had made to him? Based on the outcome, it is true that God did indeed provide a sacrificial lamb, and Isaac was not sacrificed. One day, we, who have much smaller faith than Abraham, will be able to ask him face to face. He'll probably respond with a gleam in his eyes, and tell us that God's promises never fail, regardless of how things appear in any given moment in time. I take comfort in this.

maggie · 02-13-09 10:19 am

But, Devon, God asked Abraham to murder his son. Tie him up and murder him and then burn him as a sacrifice. If taking a God like that at his word is faith, then the Aztecs had all kinds of faith.

pilgrim99 · 02-13-09 10:55 am

Maggie, According to the Bible, what are the wages of sin? Have the billions that we all should be rightly concerned about, sinned? This concern for the unnecessary destiny of those we meet on a daily basis should drive us to share the Good News always. I believe that this concern is the trigger for personal evangelism and also for our support for missions. I had the humbling experience of meeting <a href="http://gfa.org/aboutkp" target=_top>K.P Yohannan</a> a few years ago, his concern for the 50,000 souls who die each day in India without knowing Christ, and therefore facing eternity without God, drove me to a personal, yet imperfect response. The stories of the <a href="http://gfa.org" target=_top>Gospel for Asia</a> missionaries read like the stories of the Apostles. Although all have sinned, and are deserving of eternal separation from God, there is an alternative, freely offered end game. The debt due for our sins has been paid. Does God offer an alternative to the earned wages of sin?<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Do I actually delight in the death of the wicked, declares the sovereign Lord? Do I not prefer that he turn from his wicked conduct and live? “But if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and practices wrongdoing according to all the abominable practices the wicked carry out, will he live? All his righteous acts will not be remembered; because of the unfaithful acts he has done and the sin he has committed, he will die. “Yet you say, ‘The Lord’s conduct is unjust!’ Hear, O house of Israel: Is my conduct unjust? Is it not your conduct that is unjust? When a righteous person turns back from his righteousness and practices wrongdoing, he will die for it; because of the wrongdoing he has done, he will die. When a wicked person turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will preserve his life. Because he considered and turned from all the sins he had done, he will surely live; he will not die. Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The Lord’s conduct is unjust!’ Is my conduct unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your conduct that is unjust? “Therefore I will judge each person according to his conduct, O house of Israel, declares the sovereign Lord. Repent and turn from all your wickedness; then it will not be an obstacle leading to iniquity. Throw away all your sins you have committed and fashion yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why should you die, O house of Israel? For I take no delight in the death of anyone, declares the sovereign Lord. Repent and live! Ezekiel 18:23-32 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Jesus, the ultimate sacrificial Lamb, had this to say:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:“I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life. John 5:24 NET<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> The deceiver would prefer to blind us to God's truth, so that we can share in his horror filled destiny. God shares the unvarnished truth with us. Take the time to share the Good News with one person today. (Message edited by pilgrim99 on February 13, 2009)

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