Grace

george · 01-07-09 5:18 pm

Hubb, We come to this from different perspectives. Your studies are done for reinforcement. You know, before you open a book, what you will accept and what you will not, no matter what the logic, proof, or basis. I, on the other hand, have to question until it makes sense. For most, faith has to do with belief in a certain set of doctrines, or a certain slant on what the Bible says. Faith for me is trust - trust that God knows my heart and my intentions; and as long as they are true I can trust that He will do the right thing by me. I do have to admit that I have caught myself bending information to fit my biases, but that disturbs me and I try to rethink the issues. So my question to you is, does the Spirit of God speak differently to different people? Can your faith and mine, both be true? I think they can as long as we stay honest with ourselves. That for me is the "good fight of faith". It has very little to do with keeping laws. Out of the heart flow our actions and only God knows our hearts. I have no problem with the Ten Commandments as a rule of life. I just don't think that's what it's about; and I don't think keeping that law is enough. And I don't think the gauntlet laid down by Satan is about keeping the law. Satan's temptaion was to doubt the goodness of God.

elaine · 01-07-09 10:42 pm

Did Adam and Eve require the power of God to keep the law? What law were they given to keep? Did the power of God leave them when they were deceived at the tree? If they were "perfect" when created, at what time did they sin if the power of God was with them?

lijhakim · 01-08-09 1:33 am

Elaine, A rather basic question. God gave men free will. He NEVER uses power to over ride free will. The difference between Adam and Eve in Eden and you and I is that they were able to keep the law of God where we can only by grace. Did Adam and Eve have grace? Yes! I believe that they did. But this grace was fully implemented in their lives, where we sinners too often have obstacles to the work of grace in our lives. God has to one by one help us to over come those obstacles.

lijhakim · 01-19-09 7:57 pm

Prevenient grace Prevenient grace is a term used by John Wesley to describe “preventing grace.” This is divine grace which precedes human decision. It occurs before and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by sin, prevenient grace allows persons to use their God-given free will to choose or to reject the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ. Augustine and the Calvinists held that prevenient grace cannot be resisted. Wesleyan Arminians believe that it enables, but does not ensure, personal acceptance of the gift of salvation. Definition Prevenient grace is also defined as the divine love that surrounds all humanity and precedes any and all of our conscious impulses. This grace prompts our first wish to please God, our first glimmer of understanding concerning God's will, and our 'first slight transient conviction' of having sinned against God. God's grace also awakens in us an earnest longing for deliverance from sin and death and moves us toward repentance and faith. John Wesley further teaches that, "The condition of man after the fall of Adam is such that he cannot turn and prepare himself, by his own natural strength and works, to faith, and calling upon God. We have no power to do good works, pleasant and acceptable to God, without the grace of God by Christ preceding us, that we may have a good will. ...” Thomas Oden of Drew University adds "...the grace that begins to enable one to choose further to cooperate with saving grace. By offering the will the restored capacity to respond to grace, the person then may freely and increasingly become an active, willing participant in receiving the conditions for justification." In John Wesley's sermon (#85), he states that prevenient grace elicits, "...the first wish to please God, the first dawn of light concerning His will, and the first slight transient conviction of having sinned against Him." Prevenient grace is also a solution to two great problems in Christianity: the belief of original sin and the Protestant doctrine of salvation by grace alone. Developing the idea based upon the witness of Scripture, Wesley felt that prevenient grace enabled the doctrines of original sin and salvation by grace to co-exist while still maintaining God's sovereignty and holy character as well as human freedom. Roman Catholic theology The issue of prevenient grace was discussed in the fifth chapter of the sixth session of the Council of Trent : “In adults, the beginning of the said justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace. Scripture References: Jeremiah 1:5 (ESV): "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you..." Jeremiah 31:3 (KJV): "...I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." Ezekiel 34:11, 16 (ESV): "For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out . . . I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak..." Luke 19:10: "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." John 6:44: "No man can come unto me, unless the Father who hath sent me, draw him..." Romans 2:4: "...the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance..." Philippians 2:12-13: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God that worketh in you according to his good pleasure, . . . both to will and to do." 1 John 4:19: "We love him, because he first loved us." ------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

elaine · 01-19-09 10:20 pm

Hubb, we really know very little about Adam and Eve, except that they sinned. They certainly had the ability to sin--free will which gave them the power of choice. Other than that, how can anyone be certain about possible differences between them and us today?

lijhakim · 01-20-09 12:50 pm

Elaine, Genesis 1 says that Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. I think it is obvious that men today are NOT in the image of God. Adam was given dominion of all the earth, including all living things. After sin animals became wild, and thorns thistles and weeds grew in the soil. Life was quite different. These things are deduced from observation as well as what is said in Genesis 3. I do not believe that there were any carnivorous animals in Eden, as there will be none in the New Earth. There will not be any poisonous snakes, as there will be none in the New Earth. There will be no death of men or animals in the New Earth, and there was none in Eden before sin. See Isaiah 66 and Revelation 21. Hubb

cadge · 01-20-09 1:33 pm

And the Earth will not be tilted on it's axis just like in Eden before the flood which caused the seasons and the polar ice caps. There must have been a flood on mars too: "Seasons on Mars occur the same way they do on Earth. Mars' axis is tilted about 25 degrees. When the northern hemisphere is facing the sun it is summer in ..." <a href="http://www.ucls.uchicago.edu/MartianSunTimes/docs/mars_stats.html" target=_top>www.ucls.uchicago.edu/MartianSunTimes/docs/mars_st ats.html</a> - 16k - Or did our severe state of evil affect Mars too? Cadge

john8verse32 · 01-20-09 4:33 pm

How do we know when "truth" gives way to "imaginative speculation"??? Adam was given dominion of all the earth, including all living things. even tube worms, crayfish and crabs two miles down living in "hot smokers" off the heat of the earth instead of sunshine? and only discovered a handful of years ago? obvious that men today are NOT in the image of God. and some of us, usually not by our own choice, from day one, had to undergo painful destructive surgury immediately after birth to correct some apparent defect left over since Creation. There will be no death of men or animals in the New Earth, and there was none in Eden before sin. so all those Harry Baerg paintings showing the glistening Holy City replete with beautiful white limestone buildings and walls are merely imaginative speculation? since limestone is usually only formed by the mega death of gazillions of tiny marine animals,compressed under giga tons of pressure over myriads of eons of time, it will not be available for building materials "up there"??? and the lions laying down with lambs will have their canines replaced with molars to chew grass not mutton?

lijhakim · 01-20-09 8:34 pm

Cadge, There is a lot that we do not know about Mars. As to the tilt of Mars and this earth, we cannot be sure about that either. Maybe this earth has always been tilted. Genesis 1:14 states that the "lights in the firmament were to be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:" Just what those seasons were we don't know. So long as we are speculating, there is the thought that this earth was covered with a thick mantle of water -- which came down and contributed to the flood. This thick mantle served also to moderate intensity of the seasons. Thus, maybe the earth was tilted during the flood, but this was not necessary to explain the change in climate after the flood. Apparently there were seasons, but not so pronounced as we have today. Hubb

lijhakim · 01-20-09 8:44 pm

John Alfke, Ye know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God." Genesis 1:28 states that Adam was given dominion "over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." At least to some extent tube worms "move." How Adam could exercise dominion over tube worms I do not know. One thought would be that Adam was responsible for the environment, and would have to be sure that the habitat of tube worms was always supportive of their life. If God needed limestone (or marble) for building material He could have created this as well as other forms of rock. As for dinosaurs, carnivorous animals, and poisonous snakes we have no record as to how they came about. However passages in Isaiah and Revelation indicate that there will be no pain and no death in the New Earth. Hubb

elaine · 01-20-09 9:17 pm

Hubb, you are talking from a "sanctified view" but where did you get that gift? Imagining how anything was before sin is based on what we know now, and then looking back at all that is unpleasant and assuming that was caused by sin. To assume that carnivorous animals were once all herbivores cannot be substantiated. The verses in Isaiah and other places where writers were speculating about a future "promised land" also cannot be verified. Hebrew Scripture knew nothing about heaven but only a better existence sometime in the future. "New Moons" and Sabbaths that were said to be observed in the new heavens and earth would require that the sun and moon rule the heavens--only possible here on earth. It is no different than the Muslims who believe there will be virgins for them in heaven, or the Mormons who believe they will inhabit other planets. All are based on hopes and dreams--which cannot be proved. Believe if if one wishes.

elaine · 01-20-09 9:19 pm

These suppositions depend on literal reading and ignoring symbolism and metaphor.

don · 01-20-09 11:14 pm

All are based on hopes and dreams The Christian considers the Bible-based hopes and dreams to be of divine origin. Do you not have hopes and dreams taught to you by God Himself? Certainly you too have faith? .

lijhakim · 01-20-09 11:36 pm

Elaine, Christianity is not just a set of doctrines and beliefs; it is a relationship with God, with Jesus Christ. How does a person attain this experience? "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17. This verse points to Bible study as a primary way to know God. Commit yourself to "hearing" and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide. Put every other consideration out of your mind, read the Bible, meditate and pray. You will not be disappointed. God will come near. The best time to do this is first thing in the morning. Put aside TV and worldly entertainment. Live healthfully. Purposefully make God first. I don't mean to give you a "formula." Generally depending on a formula is disappointing. Maybe as one writer has said, our prayer to God must be a "cry for help." Remember, He will hear every prayer. Don't be disappointed if you do not "feel" anything. Persist. You are not looking for a feeling, but for a relationship. If Jesus came and died for sinners, will he not just as diligently seek to save every one who truly opens his heart to Him? Hubb

elaine · 01-21-09 12:40 am

Hubb, I appreciate, sincerely, your concern. Reading the Bible always implies interpretation: it is always interpreted through one's own mind, or someone else. Otherwise, one will believe what someone else tells them about the Bible and what it says, whether that person is an SDA, Baptist, JW, or Roman Catholic. Also, everyone has an assumption about the Bible. To some, it is God's Word, inerrant and infallible; to others it is an ancient anthology of stories about the origins of people and their understanding of their god, or gods. Some books are poetry, some wisdom books, and some are very descriptive stories of battle, domestic problems of marriages and children and worst of all (as in Judges) very gory scenes not recommended for children. Preferably, the Pauline Epistles, with their freedom in Christ and outlining Christian belief and faith are the most inspiring for me. They also are what is very seldom preached from SDA pulpits or taught in SDA schools, at least that is how many of us experienced it. More time was spent on Daniel and Revelation prophecies than on Paul's instruction to the new Christians. Why was that?

lijhakim · 01-21-09 1:56 am

Adventist Theology: The Wesleyan Connection by Woodrow W. Whidden, Andrews University <a href="http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/wesleyanconnectionSDA.htm" target=_top>http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents /wesleyanconnectionSDA.htm</a> Seventh-day Adventists are known for their unique theology in several areas, yet at the same they have much in common with the Wesleyan/Arminian Tradition. This is particularly true with the issues of soteriology (salvation) and the closely related issues of the nature of man, law,[1] and sin, which were most directly formative for the core of Adventist theology.[2] There was also a Wesleyan influence on Adventist theological methodology, Trinitarianism, the way Biblical authority is understood and used, and church organization. There were similarities of belief in salvation by grace through faith alone. While these were primary, there was also an intimate connection with active participation in God's grace. Such a participating faith receives this grace in a responsible way. Thus Sanctification involves extensive character transformation and a carefully nuanced understanding of perfection. This is in contrast to a common belief that salvation is by faith alone, through grace alone, and by the power of Christ alone. And the power of Christ alone is entirely outside of us – a legal justification. What we do in response to His grace has no part in our salvation. --------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges .

don · 01-21-09 7:03 am

They (the Pauline epistles) also are what is very seldom preached from SDA pulpits or taught in SDA schools, at least that is how many of us experienced it. The NAD High School Curriculum as taught at our school:<blockquote>Grade 9, Genesis and the Gospels Grade 10, Exodus through Malachi, Acts, History of the Christian Church, History of the Adventist Church Grade 11, Four Sections: Friendships, Romans, SDA Beliefs, Daniel and Revelation Grade 12, Four Sections: Marriage and Family, Hebrews, John, World Religions.</blockquote>The <a href="http://circle.adventist.org/browse/resource.phtml?leaf=602" target="_blank">North American Division's K-12 Curriculum Guide is available online</a>. .

lijhakim · 01-21-09 6:40 pm

Don and Elaine, You must have had different preachers than I had. I have been "Roman-ed" up to my ears. Fortunately we have an excellent preacher here in Grand Junction now, much more creative. Hubb

lijhakim · 01-21-09 6:40 pm

Continued . . . . . Human Nature and Sin Adventists do not teach the Augustinian/Calvinistic understanding of original sin, taught in terms of original guilt or condemnation. Rather Adventists describe the effect of sin as "total depravity." John Wesley argued for "original sin" as original guilt; but due to the effects of "prevenient grace" this guilt was canceled and the ability to freely respond to God's redemptive initiatives ("free will") was recreated in the individual soul.[4] Redemptive Calling and Prevenient Grace "Prevenient grace" was one of Wesley's finely nuanced teachings. The essence of it goes like this: God comes to awaken sinners to a realization of His redemptive love and their great need caused by sin—both original and habitual. This belief has helped Wesleyans avoid the extremes of Calvinism and Pelagianism.[6] Further, sinners do not naturally seek for God, but He earnestly seeks for them to come into a redemptive relationship with Him. Such gracious seeking "creates" a proto-renewal which enables the sinner to respond to God's grace. ----------------------------- Hubert F. Sturges See Website . . . <a href="http://www.everlastingcovenant.com"> Everlasting Covenant</a>

elaine · 01-21-09 10:10 pm

One of Paul's earliest letters, to the Galatians, is replete with the Gospel. How many sermons, Hubb, have you heard on Galatians? Did you spend much time on it and Paul's other epistles when you were in an SDA college?

elaine · 01-21-09 10:14 pm

Don, you mention studying Genesis and the Gospels the first year. How are they taught? Because the Hebrews knew nothing of Jesus, or the Gospels, how are they related to studies of them? It was not until after Christ's resurrection and ascension that there was ever a correlation of the Genesis story and Jesus.

don · 01-21-09 11:44 pm

Because the Hebrews knew nothing of Jesus, or the Gospels, how are they related to studies of them? They are dealt with as separate sections. The Grade 9 curriculum utilizes two textbooks; In the Beginning God... and God's Gift, Our Choice. .

lijhakim · 01-22-09 12:40 am

Elaine, Just for interest: Gospels -- 154 pages Acts - - - - 46 pages . 241 pages by apostles James - Rev 41 pages / Epistles - - 91 pages written by Paul The epistles are important. They present the theology of the Gospel. The writings of the apostles are important. They present the life of Jesus, the early church, and the prophecies of Revelation. It would be hard to say which was most important. One has to study it all to get a balanced view. Hubb

elaine · 01-22-09 10:45 pm

Hubb, all the NT is worthy of being read. Because the Gospels, particularly the synoptics, are essentially telling the same story, although with differences, those 154 pages are often repetitious. How many recognize that Luke (identified as the author of Acts), tells a somewhat different story of Paul as does Paul, in telling of Paul's experiences. We could sometimes agree with Luther that Revelation is superfluous as it has been a confusing book for Christians since it was incorporated, later, in the NT canon. Each generation tends to read themselves into its pages, which may have been what was intended--as long as they don't get definitive on the times predicted. It was read by the early Christians as speaking of them during their persecutions by the Romans. Later generations made predictions through the Middle Ages and later as impending for them. It should be seen as comforting to believers that God will eventually triumph, rather than attempts to decode and decipher its hidden meanings. As has been shown by the past, all such definitive dates and predictions have proved to be erroneous, which should be a caution to those today who would be so certain of its hidden meanings.

lijhakim · 01-23-09 12:57 am

Elaine, funny that you would say that the gospels were repetitious. Seems that Paul tends to tell the same message over and over again, and He was just one writer, not four! I have taken the attitude that if a message is repeated in the Bible, it indicates that the message is important and that we must should take heed.

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