Adventist Reform

hfsturges · 08-04-10 12:07 pm

Matthew and Tom;

Does the church need to be reformed? Yes, of course! That is the Laodicean message. Is everyone attending the SDA church corrupt and apostate? NO! God has a message which He gave to the SDA church and a work to do. And God has a "Remnant Church."

Will all the people in the SDA church be saved? No! The Bible says there are tares in the church, that will be separated out at the last day. But the Bible also says that we must not forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

Did Desmond Ford have an important message for the SDA church? That is hard to say. He had some good things to say about grace, but he was seriously wrong on prophetic interpretation and he would not accept correction. The denomination was kind to him, and gave him a year on salary to develop his theology. The result was a tome of 1000 pages (?). Was there error in this? YES! this was pointed out. Was there truth in it? Probably. But the mixture of error and truth is more dangerous than just error. Was he correct on the Investigative Judgment? NO! He was way off base in presenting Antiochus Epiphanes as the answer to Daniel 8:14.

I know that Tom supports Desmond Ford, and that is his privilege. But he is mistaken to call his message "Adventist Reform." He would be more honest to simply start his own church. The Bible says "By their fruits ye shall know them." Are you inspired to be a better Christian from reading Tom Norris? or Desmond Ford? That is for you to answer, but it is a good measure of the spirit behind a persons "message."

elaine · 08-04-10 9:20 pm

"He was way off base in presenting Antiochus Epiphanes as the answer to Daniel 8:14."

That, of course is the "official" SDA position. But the largest majority of theologians agreed with him, including Raymond Cottrell, who probably was more conversant with Daniel than anyone in the denomination. I have heard him explain the results of Glacier View, and it was a flawed and deceptive report; most of the participants had not even read Ford's paper.

Most Bible scholars, including Hebrew ones, agree that Daniel was not written until ca. 160-156 A.D., which point directly to Antiochus Epihanes IV, and Daniel is mentioned in the Macabees. If Adventists accepted this date, it would eradicate their interpretation of the prophecy, so they have very imporant reasons to reject it.

Last edited by elaine (08-04-10 9:23 pm)

bob · 08-05-10 11:39 am

Hubert wrote:

"But the mixture of error and truth is more dangerous than just error."

That is what I have been writing right along Hubert. Same goes for Ellen White. Some truth and much error. She was the one who cemented the IJ into doctrine. Now when someone Biblically refutes the doctrine many SDAs have the White veil over their eyes and will not see the truth for what it is.

hfsturges · 08-05-10 1:17 pm

My Friend, Bob,

There has been much written on the IJ, both for and against. I will not attempt to go into the subject in details, but would like to make just one comment:

Raymond Cottrell made the comment that the "salvation context" of Daniel supported Antiochus Epiphanes as the little horn of Daniel 8. I don't know what his "salvation context" is, but the salvation context of Daniel is clearly that Rome is the end time player -- not Antiochus Epiphanes.

There have been strenuous efforts to get Rome "off the hook" for centuries. to mention a few are the false doctrines such as Futurism, Preterism, "left behind" concepts, Zionism, Communism, Islam, etc, etc. -- and of course, Antiochus Epiphanes. But "let him that hath understanding" read and not be deceived.

elaine · 08-05-10 6:07 pm

It is impossible to get "Rome off the hook" when Adventism has accepted and adopted the main pillars of Christianity directly from Rome who defined orthodoxy for the church which has been adopted ever since:

The Virgin birth; the Trinity and dual nature of Christ, the Holy Spirit as part of the Trinity:

The Council of Nicea, 325
The Council of Constantinople, 381
The Council of Ephesus, 431
The Council of Chalcedon, 451

"In like manner" wrote Gregory, "all the four symbols of the holy universal church we received as we do the four books of the Holy Gospels."

Also, one could add the doctrine of Original Sin which was believed by Tertullian, but the prime exponent was Augustine in the fourth century.

All Western Christianity has accepted those essential doctrines first adopted by the universal church. To speak of Rome disparagingly, is to call your mother what many have called Rome: Babylon, mother of harlots; as Rome, like it or not, is the mother of all Christianity.

hfsturges · 08-06-10 12:52 am

Elaine,
All those doctrines you list for the councils of the church are also in the Gospels. That is the real source of doctrine and belief.

elaine · 08-07-10 2:45 pm

They were "found" only after those doctrines were formulated. There are two many contradictory statements in the Bible that cannot be harmonius. The doctrine of the Trinity is never explicitly stated in the Bible--except in some late manuscripts of one intriguing passage: 1 Jon 5:7-8. Throughout the Latin Middle Ages, it was thought that this text read as follows: "there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one."

BUT this passage was found only in Latin manuscripts not in Greek manuscripts.

When the first edition of the Greek New Testament was published in 1516, its editor, Erasmus, did not include this verse, to the outrage of his enemies. Erasmus replied that he could not find the passage in any of the Greek manuscripts. The verse is still found in the KJV, thought it is not found in more recent and more reliable translations.

NASB: "For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

Jerusalem: "there are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water and the blood, and all three of them agree."

There is no clear and explicit statement from the Bible about the dual nature of Jesus; and neither Mark, Paul, nor Luke ever mention a virgin birth; and even Mathew and Luke disagree on the story.

These were never beliefs of the early church, and only became defined finally at Chalcedon in 451. Once positions are taken, then there is a search for Bible statements confirming those, but there are equal texts that disprove them. To be fair, what does one do with conflicting Bible statements?

Last edited by elaine (08-07-10 2:47 pm)

bob · 08-07-10 9:27 pm

Hi Hubert, hope all is well with you and yours.

I truly believe Islam has taken the RCC "off the hook". Christianity better start working together to find a way to stop the intrusion. It won't be too many years, if Jesus doesn't intervene, until mere population will stomp out the truth. Jesus was/is not concerned about our keeping Old Covenant laws and who is to become the beast power, He is concerned that we spread the simple Gospel to the World. Churches including the SDA Church should stop with all the prophesy stuff and start teaching salvation through Christ. Pointing fingers at Rome and other churches does nothing to help spread the Gospel.

Your Friend in Christ, bob

hfsturges · 08-07-10 9:51 pm

Bob,

What you write about the gospel is true but Jesus thought prophecy was important. In Matthew 24 he warned against being deceived three different times. There are a number of strange prophetic interpretations being spread around now. The significance of these is that they tend to promote the idea that men will have a second chance to make a decision for Christ. Bible teaching is that NOW is the time for salvation. If a person does not choose for Christ NOW, he will be lost.

tom_norris · 08-08-10 2:11 pm

Hub, the TSDA said: Does the church need to be reformed? Yes, of course! That is the Laodicean message.

Tom said: First off, the leaders have been denying the need for Adventist Reform for many years. So while you say “of course the church needs reform,” the leaders do not agree with you. (Which is why the church leaders shut down the AToday Forum.)

In fact, Glacier View made it clear that Traditional Adventism was beyond question, examination, or reform. Thus the leaders exiled those, like Dr. Ford, that were correctly calling for Gospel Reform.

The next generation of SDA leaders made the same error as Clifford Goldstein made so clear to all of us. He, along with Doug Batchlor, another confused Jew, teach that there is no need for Adventist Reform because the church has no false doctrines.

Thus the arrogant and obviously blind SDA’s assume they have all truth, while others are full of error. Such a delusional attitude prevents them from grasping the enormity of their errors and repenting.

The latest rhetoric about Reform, from the new administration, is just empty words unless accompanied by specific confession of wrong doctrine. Without genuine repentance, there is only phony and worthless reform for show. This is what the SDA’s like. A false Gospel and phony reform. Sad.

The LM calls for REPENTANCE before anything else. The word reform is not even there, although it is implied, but only AFTER repentance.

So where is the acknowledgement of error and the repentance for false doctrine by the SDA’s?

Genuine Reform is preceded by specific repentance. The Denomination must CONFESS to specific error BEFORE there can be any meaningful reform or correction. The IJ stands at the top of a very long list of errors. The failure to confess such false doctrines will be the doom of the SDA’s. They are running out of time.

Note: When the LM describes the last church as being “wretched” and “naked,” it means they have a false and worthless Gospel that must be “zealously confessed.” Thus the SDA’s need to repent for their many false doctrines, and repudiate the many errors of Traditional Adventism, not pretend they are correct.

So once again, the TSDA’s are misreading the Word and misstating the situation.

The SDA church needs to REPENT for what they did in 1888 and 1980 and stop pretending they have done nothing wrong. Stonewalling is not a gift of the Spirit, and neither is arrogant rebellion against the Word or the Gospel.

Genuine Gospel Reform always starts with repentance, not with a defense of error, double-talk, and the repudiation of the Laodicean Message, which is the real Pre Advent Judgment of the Church.

Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Acts 17:30 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Rev. 2:5 ‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the 1deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place — unless you repent.

Rev. 2:16 ‘Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.

Rev. 2:21 ‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

Rev. 2:22 ‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

Rev. 3:3 ‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.

Rev. 3:19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

Hub said: Is everyone attending the SDA church corrupt and apostate? NO!

Tom said: The NT teaches that all in the church are sinners in need of Christ’s Righteousness, all the time, forever.

So all are sinners, all the time, even if they are in Christ and saved. This is standard Protestant theology. No doubt this makes little sense to your legalistic mind.

Thus “everyone” that professes the name of Christ are real sinners, in need of constant mercy from God all the time.

Now apostate is another term, different from sinner. It means separated from Christ and the church. Such people are still sinners, it’s just that they repudiate the Gospel and have no hope of salvation.

Have the SDA’s done this? Yes.

This is what they officially did in 1888 and again in 1980. They officially rejected the genuine Gospel TWICE. The last time, they also refuted the Judgment pillar of Rev 14:7, which is a great pillar from Historic Adventism.

So the SDA’s have repudiated the fundamentals of the Protestant and Advent Movements, even as they have also embraced a false doctrine of the Sabbath, and many other errors.

So this makes the SDA’s an apostate denomination. Just like all the others in Laodicea. This is why the LM is so strong and harsh. There is no hint that anyone is exempted from needing to repent for false doctrine, least of all the foolish and confused SDA’s.

The SDA’s have followed a false Gospel, which has led them into great schism, corruption, and double-talk for all to see. The entire Denomination today is based on great error and fraud from the White Estate, and no one will be excused for supporting such error, or from looking away and pretending there is no need for major reform.

Hub said: God has a message which He gave to the SDA church and a work to do. And God has a "Remnant Church."

Tom said: God has given a “message” to many over the years. The Jews are a good example of a group that had a holy mission to protect God’s law and prepare the way for the Gospel. But we all know they botched their mission and rejected the very Gospel, and Sabbath, that they were meant to proclaim! Silly Jews.

There is no denying that the SDA’s have played a meaningful role in church history. They preserved the prophetic paradigm of the Three Angels Messages and embarked on a mission to Reform the Sabbath and then the American diet. All this was done in an eschatological context of preparing the church for the final Gospel Message of Rev 18 and the Second Coming.

So they have a genuine Protestant pedigree, as well as a worthwhile, necessary, and noble mission.

However, like the Jews, the SDA’s have also failed to comprehend and accept the Gospel. Like the Jews, they embraced the Law and the Old Covenant Sabbath with both hands, even as they denied the Protestant Gospel and persecuted those, like EJ Waggoner and Dr. Ford, who tried to correct and educate them.

This is why the SDA’s need to repent. Not because they were given a message and a mission, but because they have misunderstood their Gospel message and failed at their mission. They are truly blind, naked, and wretched, just as prophecy has foretold. Too bad they choose to remain blind and naked for all to see. Just like the Jews.

Hub said: Will all the people in the SDA church be saved? No!

Tom said: How can ANY SDA’s be saved when they have embraced a false Gospel? The NT teaches that a distorted Gospel brings condemnation, not peace, joy, or Eternal Life.

If Peter and James could be condemned by Paul for false doctrine, so too can the SDA’s. There is no salvation for any that are so reckless and blind as to have embraced a false Gospel. Do not be fooled. All those that make such a fatal mistake will be lost. The SDA’s are no exception.

None of the TSDA’s will be saved because they have willfully chosen a false Gospel. They are the equivalent of the Judaizers, aka, the Circumcision Party. The NT makes it clear that any who follow the errors of the Galatians, regardless if they are church leaders or not, will not be saved.

Look in the mirror, Hub and understand that you are in great danger. You are a lost man unless you repent of Traditional Adventism and repudiate the IJ. God is not mocked or fooled by all this SDA double-talk, and neither are the scholars and theologians that deal with this material.

ALL those SDA’s that refuse to repent of Glacier View theology are lost. Sorry to be the one to tell you the bad news. Thus many will forfeit Eternal Life because their religious leaders deceived them. Just like the Jews.

Unless the TSDA’s repent of their false Gospel formula of faith + works + IJ = salvation; they are doomed, and so too any that support Traditional, Old Covenant, Adventism.

Hub said: The Bible says there are tares in the church, that will be separated out at the last day. But the Bible also says that we must not forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

Tom said: This debate is not about the bad apples in the church, but about the true Gospel versus a false Gospel.

Moreover, there has always been TWO separate Gospels in the church. This is what the book of Galatians is all about. Thus Paul was not calling James or Peter “tares.” He was calling them apostates and enemies of Christ. He condemned them for their distorted Gospel that added our sanctification as a requirement for salvation.

Gal. 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal. 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal. 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal. 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

At this point in time, ALL the TSDA’s are under the Pauline curse of Galatians. Every SDA leader and Pastor has fallen under the awful double curse. Thus Clifford Goldstein, Doug Batchlor, and _______ (fill in your favorite SDA), are all cursed to hell for their foolish and stubborn errors. There are no exceptions to this rule. Those in the church that teach a false Gospel are enemies of Christ and all that follow him.

How ironic that when the Protestant Gospel is correctly understood, the church will embrace the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath. So the SDA’s were on to something big, and correct. But they tripped over the Gospel and have fallen flat on their face for all to see.

At this point, the SDA’s follow the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews and the Gospel of Rome. They do not know or understand the Gospel correctly, much less the Reformed, Gospel Sabbath of Jesus.

This means that the SDA’s are “assembling” under the wrong Sabbath doctrine and wrong Gospel. Those that meet under such wrong pretenses, and so badly misunderstand the Gospel, are wasting their time by playing church. They are not even close to obtaining peace here on earth, much less Eternal Life.

Hub said: Did Desmond Ford have an important message for the SDA church? That is hard to say.

Tom said: Ha! The TSDA’s are acting just like the Jews that hated the Gospel.

Why is it hard for you to decide if the popular Dr. Ford had a credible message of Gospel Reform? Why the confusion on this point? Either he did or he did not?

Guess what? The Jews had the same problem when asked if they thought John the Baptist had a credible reform message. They too stammered, not knowing how to answer the question. If they said John was from God, then Jesus would respond, then why did you reject him?

But if they said, he had no message from God, then the people would turn on them, for not only was John popular, the people believed that his message of reform was from God. So the enemies of Christ were trapped with their own double-talk. Just like the modern TSDA’s.

Matt. 21:23 When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?”

Matt. 21:24 Jesus said to them, “I will also ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I will also tell you by what authority I do these things.

Matt. 21:25 “The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?”

And they began reasoning among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’

Matt. 21:26 “But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the people; for they all regard John as a prophet.”

Matt. 21:27 And answering Jesus, they said, “We do not know.” He also said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

So the SDA’s are caught in the same self made trap. They too must use double-talk and play games because they are not being honest about the issues or the evidence.

All SDA’s know that Dr. Ford preached a powerful and dramatic Gospel Message, and that he is an expert with the Word and Prophecy. They also know he is a sincere, kind Christian who has given his life to preach the Gospel.

How can anyone deny such evidence or doubt the “source” of his Gospel teaching? Can’t the leaders tell the difference between what is false and what is not? Why not? They should know if Dr. Ford has a message from God or not. But they don’t want to admit their error and repent, so they reject Gospel Reform. Just like the Jews.

It is not hard to figure out if Dr. Ford’s Gospel Message is correct. However, it is very hard for the church to confess and repent their errors. This is the real difficulty. The Jews had the same problem, for which they paid a terrible price. So too will the SDA’s. They are self-destructing for cause.

Hub said: He had some good things to say about grace, but he was seriously wrong on prophetic interpretation and he would not accept correction.

Tom said: Dr. Ford understood the Gospel, as well as church history and eschatology, better than any other SDA. This is still the case today.

So not only did he have “some good things to say,” he spoke the words of Eternal Life to all who would listen, even as he told the truth about church history and doctrine.

Moreover, because his theology was grounded in the Word, he had no reason to pay attention to those incompetent administrators and dishonest apologists that tried to “correct” him. These men did not know what they were talking about, and time has further proven this fact.

Furthermore, this idea that one is saved by their “prophetic interpretations” is absurd and wrong. Only the Gospel is salvific. One is not required to reach some level of prophetic competency before their names are written in the Book of Life, much less embrace the IJ, a false doctrine that was invented just before the American Civil War by the SDA’s.

Dr. Ford was 100% correct in his views. He was correct to claim that the IJ was never a “pillar” in the Three Angels Messages, and that the only Judgment pillar in Rev 14: 7 is the Second Coming.

He is also correct to understand the AE is the original meaning of Dan 8:14 and that there is no such doctrine as the PAJ of the church found in any OT book of the Bible.

Although many SDA’s thought otherwise, Dr. Ford was correct nonetheless.

Why?

Because facts count and myths do not.

Dr. Ford stood firm for the Fundamentals of Historic Adventism. He was not only correct, but he is owed an apology.

Hub said: The denomination was kind to him, and gave him a year on salary to develop his theology. The result was a tome of 1000 pages (?).

Tom said: The leaders were unfair and dishonest with Dr. Ford. They broke their promises to him, even as they tried to bribe him to retract his conclusions. When he refused, they slandered, defamed, and fired him.

He could have sued the church, and won for the manner in which he was terminated. But he turned the other cheek and went about his lifelong passion to preach the Gospel, as well as defend the validity of the 7th day Sabbath.

Moreover, Dr. Ford’s Glacier View document was not only large, as you point out, it was also correct. In hindsight, it was too far ahead of its time. None of his critics could comprehend what he was saying, which is why none were able to refute what they so badly misunderstood.

When the first drafts of the manuscript were passed around to the theological committee for comments, all they made were grammatical suggestions. They could not understand what they were reading, nor did they want to understand and repent.

The top leaders were so ignorant of the real facts of Historic Adventism that they could not even process what Dr. Ford was saying. They had all been so hypnotized by the many myths of Traditional Adventism that routinely came from the White Estate, that the truth seemed like shocking heresy.

Like an angry mob attacking Paul in the NT, so too the SDA leaders ambushed and persecuted Dr. Ford, pushing him and the Gospel further away from the Denomination. All the time pretending that Dr. Ford is the problem, and that he needs to repent, when the opposite is the case.

So Hub, save your self-serving, dishonest spin for your own web site. The history of Glacier View is registered in heaven as a great sin against the Gospel, just like the 1888 debate. If the SDA’s continue to pretend they are correct, and Dr. Ford wrong, then this is the end of the SDA Denomination and the Advent Movement will go forward with others in charge.

The modern SDA’s will never recover or survive if they continue to pretend they have no error. If they refuse to repent for Glacier View and return to the original Fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages, starting with the correct Gospel and the correct Judgment, they are doomed. THIS is also what Ellen White says will happen to them, and I think she is correct.

If they can’t get these two foundational pillars correct, then, as Ellen White says, there is no use in pretending they are SDA or Protestant. They are neither.

Hub said: Was there error in this? YES! This was pointed out. Was there truth in it? Probably. But the mixture of error and truth is more dangerous than just error.

Tom said: First, off, why don’t you know specifically if Dr. Ford taught truth? And if he did, what is it? This double-talk about “maybe” he taught some truth is exactly the same double-talk as the Jews used about John the Baptist.

While the TSDA’s claim that Dr. Ford’s errors were pointed out, this is not true. He was the one that pointed out error and corrected it, not the leaders. They were the problem, just like the Jews. They were in error, but did not want to admit it.

Here is a discussion about Goldstein’s book on the IJ. He not only loses the discussion, but his views are proven wrong for all to see. So you need to stop pretending that Glacier View can be defended or that Dr. Ford was promoting error.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1013659183

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1166507859

Hub said: Was Dr. Ford correct on the Investigative Judgment? NO! He was way off base in presenting Antiochus Epiphanes as the answer to Daniel 8:14.

Tom said: Ha! Who today dares claim the Bible teaches the IJ? Who today is so stupid as to think that the Pre Advent Judgment of the Church can be found in the Old Covenant book of Daniel? Since when did the NT give the OT authority over the church?

I challenge anyone to try and prove such an absurd and impossible doctrine. The PAJ of the church must be found in the NT. And so it is.

In fact, if you recall, Goldstein refused to enter into a discussion with either Dr. Ford or Tom Norris about the IJ and the PAJ. He refused because he could not defend his false doctrine. There was no other reason. Over and over he refused to discuss the issues.

What kind of religious author runs from the public discussion about his books? What kind of denomination prefers propaganda and censorship to open and honest discussion of the issues?

Goldstein knows that neither his books, nor TA can be defended. So he has run away from this public discussion about Adventist Reform. All the leaders have run away, unable to speak to the issues, and unwilling to admit their errors. Sad.

To this very day, no one, has been able to refute Dr. Ford’s views, or rebut his AToday Interview. However, there is still an open invitation for anyone to try, but Traditional Adventism is running on fumes. They have no champion and no worthwhile message.

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm

Goldstein, who is a very confused Jew, also claimed, like you, that Ford was wrong to claim that AE was the original fulfillment of Dan 8: 14. But he also lost that debate, as will anyone so foolish to defend the IJ.

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1166992498

While many were stunned at Dr. Ford’s conclusion to reject the IJ, Raymond Cottrell, a long time SDA historian supported his view about AE and the removal of the IJ. Listen and learn as Dr. Raymond Cottrell tells this story:

"My first great shocker about the "IJ, Daniel 8:14 and 1844" was when I read a Hallmark Hanukkah Card in a store that explained the entire story about how the FIRST Hanukkah, and how it lasted for 8 days because that's how long the oil lasted that they'd found in the Temple, once they had "cleansed" the Sanctuary" and set it back up for proper worship. The Jews had even carried OUT every single stone that had been used in the alter because they couldn't take a chance of having a stone in the alter of God that would have such a history of holding up a pig at one time! The Hallmark Card Company had gone to great lengths to tell this story correctly, and they did it!"

"And there I was reading the story WELL OVER 2000 years later that fit a part of the puzzle that at one time had me greatly perplexed. You don't need to go to what "the Christians" think Daniel 8:14 is talking about, but just go to the JEWS who it was written for and ask THEM what the meaning was all about and you'll see that it had nothing to do with 1844, but everything to do with 165 B.C. instead!." Dr. Raymond Cottrell.

http://www.truthorfables.com/Cottrell_I … ection.htm

Let all understand: Dan 8:14 is primarily associated with AE, Hanukkah, and the Jewish Temple. Daniel is not talking about a "cleansing" of a heavenly sanctuary as the SDA's incorrectly teach. Rather, he is talking about what became the Hanukkah story.

All SDA's today need to understand Hanukkah, and then they can better understand the book of Daniel and stop making fools of themselves.

Here are some Hanukkah links so that you can see how the Jews and others view the story about the earthly Sanctuary being "cleansed."

http://scheinerman.net/judaism/chanukah/history.html

http://www.aish.com/chanukahguide/chanu … sp#history

http://www.chanuka.com/history.shtml

http://www.beingjewish.com/yomtov/chanukah/history.html

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/cgi-bin/ … =chanuka21

http://www.keeneshops.com/ChanukahGuide/history.asp

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/judaica/hanukkah

http://www.bereansonline.org/outlines/hanukkah.htm

http://brenda.ratcliffs.net/han.htm

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~russkell … /id17.html

http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn24/abomination.htm

http://www.truthorfables.com/Hanukkah.htm

http://www.grace4u.org/newtest/history/nth_1.htm

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflec … abees.html

http://bibleprobe.com/forum/forum_entry … 8a5281fa60

Jesus observed and believed in Hanukkah, which means "dedication" and thus it is called the Feast of Dedication. Jesus is seen in the NT as participating in this Festival about Dan 8: 14. Which means that those who embrace the IJ are repudiating Jesus interpretation of scripture and making up their own false doctrines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prai … anuka.html

This story about the deliverance of the Jewish Temple from their enemies is what Dan 8:14 is primarily referencing. It is what Jesus and all Jews believed. And they still do today.

Jesus and the Apostles never used any passages in Daniel to teach about the IJ or 1844. And thus the historic interpretation, which created Hanukkah, is the only credible interpretation. The IJ is disqualified and must be rejected by all.

Hub said: I know that Tom supports Desmond Ford, and that is his privilege. But he is mistaken to call his message "Adventist Reform."

Tom said: the SDA leaders have deceived many about Dr. Ford. While they teach he is a heretic that rejects Historic Adventism and Ellen White, none of this was ever true.

Few understood that Dr. Ford was correctly articulating Historic Adventism and that he was protecting the original pillars of the Three Angels Messages.

Why?

Because the leaders had been teaching false views for so long, that they did not realize it. They assumed their views, which were based on the information coming out of the White Estate, were true, supported by Ellen White, when the opposite was the case.

Hub said: He would be more honest to simply start his own church. The Bible says, "By their fruits ye shall know them."

Tom said: Those that promote genuine Gospel Reform are not trying to start new churches, but reform what exists. Those like Luther, Wesley, or Miller had no thought or desire to set up a new denomination. No. They were only trying to make corrections to false doctrine.

However, when their Gospel is rebuffed, and their message of Reform is branded as error, and censorship takes place, then schism occurs and another denomination emerges.

No doubt this is going to happen to the SDA’s if they don’t soon repent. Another church organization will be formed to move the Three Angels Messages forward. This is the established pattern of church history.

After Glacier View, I remember that many urged Dr. Ford to start his own church. But he refused.

But now? It may be the only way to save the Advent Movement.

The present situation is not sustainable. If the SDA’s refuse to repent, it is only a matter of time before a new Adventist denomination rises out of the ashes of the 3rd Angels Message. This will not only be logical, it will be the will of God.

Eschatology is not going to wait for the SDA’s. The Tribulation has never been closer. There is no more time to waste.

Hub asked: Are you inspired to be a better Christian from reading Tom Norris? or Desmond Ford? That is for you to answer, but it is a good measure of the spirit behind a persons "message."

Tom said: First off, neither Ford or Norris claim to be apostles, so no one should expect to be “inspired” as if they were. There is no such thing as a “Dr. Ford Message” or a “Tom Norris Message.” No. There is only a Gospel Message. This is the only “message” of any value.

Second, those that promote genuine Gospel Reform, always point to the Word as their source and authority.

Third, the primary object of the Gospel is neither inspiration nor behavior modification.

This idea that we are to focus on trying to be “better Christians” is dangerous and misguided.

This is really SDA code for Sanctification and character perfection. It comes from a TSDA who thinks our sanctification is salvific and that we are saved only if we prove in a heavenly court that we have passed the IJ and are safe to save.

Such a heretical view of the Gospel is clearly condemned in the NT and thus all that follow the Word must repudiate it today. No Protestant can think this way, which means the TSDA’s are not Protestant. They are RC.

The true Gospel is not about our sanctification. This is the false Gospel of the Galatians. Eternal Life is not given to anyone based on his or her sanctification, as the foolish SDA’s teach. Those who think otherwise will forfeit Eternal Life. Period. The SDA’s are doomed unless they repent.

Glacier View took place over 30 years ago. Since that time, the SDA church has suffered greatly. Millions of disappointed and angry members have left the church, even as a corruption, division, and confusion reign.

The status quo is unsustainable and wrong. It cannot continue. Something must give.

Hub said: There has been much written on the IJ, both for and against. I will not attempt to go into the subject in details, but would like to make just one comment:

Tom said: There has been very little written to support the IJ. So stop with the dishonest spin. Much more has been written against it. Which is why NO denomination in the world supports such a view. NONE!

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … DARCOM.htm

The IJ is a laughable doctrine. It has no support in church history, or from any other denomination, or anyone in the academic community, much less from those scholars like Dr. Ford, who are experts on such matters. Should the SDA’s continue to support such false and absurd doctrine, they will continue to self-destruct in stupidity and rebellion.

Hub said: Raymond Cottrell made the comment that the "salvation context" of Daniel supported Antiochus Epiphanes as the little horn of Daniel 8. I don't know what his "salvation context" is, but the salvation context of Daniel is clearly that Rome is the end time player -- not Antiochus Epiphanes.

Tom said: Cottrell is very clear that Dan 8: 14 is not the IJ. He is also clear that the SDA leaders are being very dishonest, wrong, and illogical about this doctrine.

Although he used to teach the IJ, the overwhelming weight of the evidence forced him to change his mind. Thus he repented of the IJ and embraced Dr. Ford’s correct Gospel and Judgment. This is what all SDA’s should do.

Hub said: There have been strenuous efforts to get Rome "off the hook" for centuries. to mention a few are the false doctrines such as Futurism, Preterism, "left behind" concepts, Zionism, Communism, Islam, etc, etc. -- and of course, Antiochus Epiphanes. But "let him that hath understanding" read and not be deceived.

Tom said: Hub, you are very confused and greatly “deceived.”

First off, it is the TSDA’s that are letting Rome off the hook? Why? Because they have embraced their view that salvation is a “process,” making sanctification salvific. Such a false and distorted Gospel has become standard for SDA’s. How sad.

Second, this idea that the RCC will start the time of trouble with Sunday laws is not taught in the Bible. So the SDA’s need to find another enemy to bash, like the Muslims. Today, SDA eschatology is way off base, and so too their doctrine of the Sabbath.

Third, why would you attack Zionism or think it a RC plot? The Jews moving back to their own County is now an empirical fact of history. It is no longer something that can be predicated, denied, or ignored. Here is another obvious error that must be corrected.

Fourth: AE was an ancient enemy of the Jews. He is not part of any church creed or doctrine.

No Christian is bound to believe anything about this warrior that attacked the Jews so long ago, much less that he is not the original meaning of Dan 8:14. The SDA’s have lost their minds to think that any passage in Daniel is a test doctrine for the church. They have gone completely mad to take such a position.

All SDA’s must stop pretending that the historic account about AE and Dan 8: 14 should be changed and re-interpreted as the SDA doctrine of the IJ. Not only are they wrong, but this is an impossible view that repudiates not only Jewish history, but the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels about Dan 8: 14.

So at some point, the SDA’s must stop playing games and deal with the issues. If not, all should forsake their evil and confused doctrines.

Perhaps the new administration is going to be honest and finally resolve to bring the church back to the Historic Fundamentals of the Three Angels Messages. This is the only position that will save the SDA’s. Then, they can go forward to the 4th Angels Message and re-energize the Advent Movement.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

hfsturges · 08-08-10 6:46 pm

Enough already!

Last edited by hfsturges (08-09-10 12:47 am)

elaine · 08-08-10 8:47 pm

"If Dr. Ford had a message from God, why was not "Good News Unlimited" successful"

The same question could be asked of the early Christian church. Why were they not much more successful? Why were the Jews not successful in bringing in non-Jews to their beliefs? Why have Adventists been no more successful than Mormons, who began about the same time and also faced much more persecution. If such success is proof of being on "God's side," why not look at the Roman Catholics who are the world's largest religion? Or any group?

I also was present at that debate and like your friend, and many of my friends, also felt that Ford and van Rooyen made their position much clearer and convinced most of the members. One point impossible to prove: that something occurred in heaven in specific earth time, which is an assumption that God and heaven operate on earth time, a very quaint idea that should have died a millenia ago.

How many years did it take Adventism to reach the first million members? If truth is determined by numbers and majority of members, you are certainly on the wrong side. But I don't believe that either of us believes that.

Last edited by elaine (08-08-10 8:50 pm)

tom_norris · 08-09-10 9:04 am

Hub said: Enough already!

Tom said: You should say: "I repent!"

Or is this your way of trying to say this?

Now you know how Goldstein, the champion of the IJ, felt when faced with the same set of facts. He too cried "enough already" and ran away in humiliation and defeat, unable to even discuss his book about the IJ and 1844.

But running away and hiding is not the same as repenting. Silly SDA's. They need to stop running from truth and repent. They are making fools of themselves for all to see.

All SDA's should repent and repudiate the IJ, and apologize to Dr. Ford.

Then they will be able to understand the correct view of Historic Adventism, the Three Angels Messages, and Ellen White.

Then they will be able to grasp the Gospel correctly, as well as the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath and move on to the 4th Angels Message. But first, they must REPENT of their errors. This is the secret to forward progress.

bob · 08-10-10 10:42 am

Tom said:
"Then they will be able to understand the correct view of Historic Adventism, the Three Angels Messages, and Ellen White."

It hasn't helped you to understand the fact that E. G. White was a false prophet and that the three angels messages have nothing to say about observing a day. Nor do the messages indicate who was or will be the beast power or its image.

If Ellen and the church are wrong about the IJ and how to observe Sabbath then why would anyone trust them in interpreting the messages of the three angels?

Tom, there are too many holes in what you are telling us. I cannot in any way see how you could still believe Ellen was God's prophetic voice when you know she erred, plagiarized and plain lied about having "visions".

Maybe you won't cast her aside because you want to stay in the good graces of the Adventist brethren. That would be deceiving, if that is the case.

tom_norris · 08-14-10 3:27 pm

Tom said:  "Then they will be able to understand the correct view of Historic Adventism, the Three Angels Messages, and Ellen White."

Bob said: It hasn't helped you to understand the fact that E. G. White was a false prophet and that the three angels messages have nothing to say about observing a day. Nor do the messages indicate who was or will be the beast power or its image.

Tom said: What you claim to be a “fact” is the natural reaction to the fraud of the White Estate. Arthur White dishonestly developed Ellen White into a person that would have been unknown to the Pioneers. He set her so high, and gave her so much authority, wisdom, and supernatural knowledge, that it was only a matter of time before this mythical history came crashing down like a house of cards.

Ellen White is a “false prophet” if you embrace her as the White Estate teaches and markets her. So yes, the Ellen G. White of Traditional Adventism is a farce and a fraud. I agree 100%.

However, the real Ellen White of history is nothing like the one that supports Traditional Adventism and Glacier View. This is the one that all SDA’s should embrace.

This is why the White Estate must confess what they have done, repent, and correct the false record that Arthur White has manipulated and promoted all these years.

Today, no one should believe the White Estate’s version of Ellen White or church history. Which includes this nonsense about how to “Test a Prophet.” There is no such test, nor was Ellen White a “prophet” in the sense that the White Estate claimed. So this whole debate about False vs. True Prophet is worthless, diversionary, and useless. And so too are the White Estate’s description of Ellen White’s views.

Arthur White was an incompetent, uneducated, cultic fool. He was also a criminal that was manipulating the largest publishing fraud in modern church history. His version of Ellen White was knowingly fabricated and false, and so too much of what the church teaches about the Three Angels Messages.

But yet, no SDA’s today seem to be calling for any investigation of the White Estate? It seems the SDA’s would rather embrace their long-standing fraud, than take the trouble to find the truth and repent. Which leaves the door wide open for everyone to call her a fraud and false prophet. Because that is what she looks like.

Thanks to the White Estate, this is what she is.

But the Ellen White they promote, and the one that you decry as a fraud, are the same. The Ellen White of Traditional Adventism is a fraud, manufactured by the White Estate against her will and against the record.

Stop believing in this false view of Ellen White. Stop reacting to the White Estate, as if what they teach is true. It is not. They are the world’s greatest liars, and no one should think otherwise. What they teach about Ellen White is not historically accurate, even the opposite of the record.

So stop assuming that what is taught by the SDA church about Ellen White is honest, true, and verifiable. It is not. It is false and very untrue. The Ellen White of the White Estate is a fraud. Period!

Do not misunderstand: it is not your fault that you were indoctrinated into the fraud of Arthur White. Who knew that the White Estate was being so incompetent and dishonest? Who even imagined they had most everything wrong, including Ellen White’s view of the fundamental pillars that define Historic Adventism?

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … hite-3.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … ite-10.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day- … papers.htm

All SDA’s need to meet the real Ellen White of history. She was a real person that has been very misunderstood and misrepresented. However, because the White Estate refuses to confess what they have done, and correct the record, many naturally think she is a “false prophet.”

This is why it is so important for the White Estate to be cleaned up. Their massive fraud is the source for all the confusion and division that has overwhelmed the church. The real Ellen White is unknown to the public, and thus the record must be corrected if the SDA’s are to have any hope of escaping their well-deserved doom.

So the point to understand is this: Repentance is the first step in Reforming Adventism. There must be specific confession about the errors in the White Estate, as well as a correction of the entire record. THEN all will see a very different Ellen White from what they were taught, even as many supposedly solid doctrines, like the IJ, and legalism, will melt away as worthless.

As for Adventist history, there should be no confusion about the progress and doctrinal development of the 1st, and 2nd Messages. These were well-documented periods, as was the rise and progress of the 3rd Angels Message, which contained both Sabbath and Health Reform.

Moreover, the fact that the 3rd Angels Messages has not turned out very well, is an expected part of SDA eschatology. All THREE Messages contained much error and all three would end in error and confusion. So they have.

This is how the Adventist Apocalyptic functions. This is how the Gospel makes progress. Error leads to correction and reform.

Note this eschatological formula: The discovery of error, results in paradigm changing reforms. This is how the Advent Movement transitioned through each of the previous Messages and this same pattern will once again reposition Adventism from the (failed) 3rd Angels Message to the 4th. Which is the next phase of the Advent Movement.

Bob said: If Ellen and the church are wrong about the IJ and how to observe Sabbath then why would anyone trust them in interpreting the messages of the three angels?

Tom said: First off, the idea is to find out what is truth and embrace that. So we should be trying to understand the points where the Pioneers were correct. Not focus on where they were wrong, and thus lose truth in the process.

Second, being wrong about doctrine is normative. No one in the Gospel Story, except Jesus, is without doctrinal error. Nor does such error disqualify a person from having some truth.

In other words, if Ellen White is a fraud for being wrong about doctrine, then so too are all the apostles. They all ran away from Christ. They all misunderstood the Gospel. They were all wrong many times.

Paul was the worst of all; he refused to even consider this new view of theology. Thus he went around and attacked the Gospel, throwing believers in jail. This is far worse than any doctrinal error that Ellen White ever made.

But after Paul repented, and embraced the Gospel, Peter and James became outrageously wrong about the Gospel. So much so that Paul, had to publicly condemn them. How ironic? But yet, who calls Paul, Peter, and James “frauds”?

So the critics of Ellen White are wasting their time trying to demonize her for false doctrine, as if she is not allowed to make any errors. While this is what the White Estate taught everyone, it is time to grow up and understand the leaders very wrong on this point and many others.

The real Ellen White made plenty of errors, but so too does everyone. Ellen White is not to be judged on the false basis of the White Estate.

She never claimed doctrinal perfection or authority, even as she changed her views over time. She was a champion of Bible Study and doctrinal investigation in order to better understand the progression of truth. She had no problem admitting doctrinal error and making corrections.

However, Uriah Smith and others were not nearly so open. In fact, the SDA leaders made the fatal error of thinking they had all the truth, when Ellen White knew better. Thus, Smith blocked her 1888 reforms, and drove the Battle Creek church into great schism and destruction.

Bob said: Tom, there are too many holes in what you are telling us.

Tom said: Ha! Where are these “holes”? What don’t you understand about the real story of Ellen White that I have been explaining for the past 10 years?

History is what it is. The facts are known and documented. The White Estate has been caught with legions of “holes” in their false story about Ellen White. They have been caught for all to see.

In fact, there is a long list of SDA’s who have accused the White Estate of having a false storyline. Weiland and Short were some of the first to understand that the White Estate was not being honest with the data. Then Dr. Ford disproved this myth that Ellen White supported the IJ as a Pillar in the 1st Angels Message, and then Walter Rea caught the White Estate lying about how Ellen White wrote her books.

Even before Rea understood that the White Estate was not telling the truth, Tom Norris had discovered the hidden 1888 documents in the Archives and the White Estate. So Arthur White has been caught, “red handed,” hiding the real story and replacing it with myth and deception.

So there is a false story of SDA history that many still think correct, and a true. But there is a very different version emerging. You need to decide which version you will embrace.

The TSDA’s have already decided that they like the old comfortable Ellen White of their youth. She supports their views, so that is all that matters to them. The fact she is a fraud, a clone of Arthur White, does not seem to matter. They are just looking for any why to sustain their false views, and the White Estate is happy to oblige.

But the facts are what they are. The White Estate is a criminal enterprise. Let all beware.

Bob said: I cannot in any way see how you could still believe Ellen was God's prophetic voice when you know she erred, plagiarized and plain lied about having "visions".

Tom said: First off, “God’s Prophetic Voice” is not Ellen White. That is absurd. It is the NT that can be described as God’s prophetic voice. Especially those places where Jesus and the apostles speak about the Second Coming.

Second; Even the apostles erred. So what? Does this nullify the Gospel Story? No. Is Ellen White to be held to a higher standard than the apostles? On what basis?

Third, Ellen White was not a plagiarist. We went over this issue on the old AT site. I suggest you find it.

This was an incompetent conclusion that came from the flawed Veltmen study. The White Estate would rather throw Ellen White under the bus and pretend she is the problem than admit that Arthur White had been hiding documents, revising church history, and making things up about Ellen White.

Arthur White is the criminal here, not Ellen White. He is a fraud and a cultic fool that must be repudiated by all. Ellen White is not really the problem.

As for Ellen White lying about her visions. This is utter nonsense. Ellen White actually did have spiritual gifts, she did not invent a false story as some imagine. But the White Estate has told many lies in the name of Ellen White, and this is what must be confessed and repudiated.

Too bad that the modern SDA’s have allowed this “gift” to ruin them. Sad.

Bob said: Maybe you won't cast her aside because you want to stay in the good graces of the Adventist brethren. That would be deceiving, if that is the case.

Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. How can anyone that calls for the repudiation of Arthur White and the White Estate, as well as the IJ and tithe, ever try to remain in the good graces of the SDA’s?

I am not running for political office, nor do I care if the SDA leaders like me or not. The call for specific repentance and Gospel Reform within the SDA Community is not negotiable. The facts are what they are, regardless who likes them and who does not.

Furthermore, there is no need to “cast Ellen White aside” as if she were not a founder, married to the greatest founder, James White. Rather, “caste aside” Arthur White. He is a great liar, a cultic, incompetent, manipulator. He is the problem. He is the man most responsible for misrepresenting Ellen White and her views to the public and he must be repudiated and posthumously condemned.

The SDA church cannot go forward until they confess what has taken place in the White Estate, and correct the record.

I hope this helps,

Tom Norris, who knows what the White Estate has done

tom_norris · 09-04-10 2:21 pm

Bob a former SDA Pastor said: Either you didn't hear me or didn't want to hear me. I'VE MOVED ON FROM SDAISM of which you are still entangled.

Tom said: I hear you, and the many others, that also mistakenly think they have outgrown SDA theology.

While much, if not all, of Traditional Adventism is very wrong, there is still great truth in Adventist history, prophecy, and theology. Thus it is dangerous and foolish to repudiate truth from any source, much less from those that invented modern eschatology.

Now that you are supposedly free from Adventism, where did you go? What do you now believe?

I know that Richard Fredericks, and many others, have repudiated the 7th day Sabbath and have become enemies of everything Adventist. His congregation only meets on Sunday, even as they have run away from any credible version of eschatology.

http://www.damascus.com/Home.aspx

Is this what you have also done?

Or have you gone forward to better understand the Gospel and the New Covenant Sabbath, as well as correct, 21st century eschatology?

Congratulations to you! If true, please share your wonderful theology with the rest of us. Don’t leave us entangled with false doctrine and worthless eschatology just before the world is about to end. Help those on the wrong path. Is not this your gift, duty, and occupation?

Truth in Adventism:

Many of the evangelical minded SDA’s made a great mistake to think there is no serious or worthwhile truth within the Advent Movement.

Dr. Ford never took such a wrong view. While there is obviously much error and corruption in Adventist theology, there is also much truth, just as there was in Judaism and with the other reform movements, such as the Lutherans’, Baptists, or Methodists, etc.

Those former SDA’s, who think there is nothing worthwhile to learn or understand from Adventist history or theology, are very wrong. Let all that think this way show us their non-SDA theology about how the world will end. They have no credible eschatology, nor do they have a correct doctrine of the Sabbath.

Today, it is impossible to preach a credible version of Gospel eschatology without using Adventist theology. All that try, will fail, even as they will also embrace a false Sabbath as a result of their misunderstanding of the NT.

I have not seen anyone in this anti Sabbatarian group come up with any credible theological package, (much less a correct view of the Gospel). Not Richard Fredericks, Ratzlaff, and not you.

http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-K-L/Liberal-inde.pdf

http://www.spectrummagazine.org/files/a … -4byrd.pdf

http://www.raptureready.com/test/Clay.htm

http://www.adventistreview.org/2000-07/story3.htm

http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-K-L/Liberal-inde.pdf

http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-C/Celeb-seper.pdf

http://www.atomorrow.com/discus/message … 1014082437

http://www.adventistreview.org/2000-11/Letters.htm

So where is this improved version of the Gospel and eschatology from the former SDA’s? Where is their solution to the Sabbath debate?

These pretenders don’t have a correct Gospel or a correct doctrine of the Sabbath. They weren’t paying attention to the Gospel, or church history, or to the SDA / NT experts, like Dr. Ford.

Richard Fredericks became so confused about the law and the Gospel that not only did he repudiate the 7th day and embrace Sunday, but he also led his congregation into the outrageous fraud of Old Covenant Tithe paying, which he learned from the legalistic SDA’s. Such an error makes him like an Old Covenant priest, even the high priest of his little religious empire, proving that he has embraced a false, cultic, and self-serving religion.

No wonder Dr. Ford had to separate from Fredericks twisted view of the Gospel, and so too did most all that followed him out of Adventism. Fredericks and the so-called “evangelical SDA’s” exchanged one set of errors for another. Time has exposed their confusion and thus they too must repent of their false doctrines before they can be right with God.

Not only was Frederick’s theology dishonest and wrong, so too was his pathetic attempts at real estate development. This too is yet another false dream and illusion, meant to keep the cultic minded in a perpetual state of giving and anticipation.

Thus the blind were leading the blind out of Adventism and into another cultic and false environment. There was no Gospel Reform taking place, much less a search for truth. Rather, Fredericks turned out to be just another wolf, feeding off the stupid sheep and taking advantage of them. The SDA’s trained him well, and thus he is a sad reflection of their dishonest and controlling instruction.

This is the way of religion. Those with talent and skill use it to make money. Many are empire builders, not for Jesus, as they pretend, but for their own egos and ease. Truth has nothing to do with it. For such leaders, it is all about money, power, and ego because the church is big business.

This group, starting with Richard Fredericks, needs to repent and reform just as much as the SDA Judaizers that they were correctly refuting. All those that ran off and embraced Sunday need to apologize to Dr. Ford for not paying attention, and for going their own arrogant way. And this includes YOU!

The Critics Still Wrong

Many wrongs make nothing correct. Those critics that correctly condemned the SDA’s for their errors, still misunderstand both the law and the Gospel, as well as the New Covenant Sabbath. They have exchanged one set of false doctrines for another set. They have not gone forward, but sideways or even backwards. How sad and stupid.

As I recall, you supported Fredericks, while I condemned his double-talk and doctrinal fraud in no uncertain terms. In fact, I warned Dr. Ford that Fredericks was a wolf in sheep’s clothing long before this fact became obvious. I knew that Richard had a very twisted view of theology and church history all along.

So why did you support his confusion?

But now, maybe you are different? Maybe you did not become a Sunday keeper? Maybe you have it all figured out,- without the use of any SDA theology? If so, I would love to see your non- SDA influenced Gospel package? Go ahead show us?

Bob said: I've never moved on from the gospel but only from those things that hide its glory, which includes SDAism.

Tom said: We both agree that SDA theology has broken down for all to see. But that sad fact does not stop the search for truth does it? Hardly.

So what is Gospel truth for the 21st century? What is Present Truth for today? What is the Pre-Advent Judgment? These are the real questions that need to be addressed.

Furthermore, while you claim to have had the full Gospel as an SDA, how can this be correct? The SDA’s have a “distorted” Gospel and so too did you when you were an SDA pastor.

As SDA’s, we all believed a number of Gospel errors.
So you must have adjusted, revised, and improved your Gospel doctrine since being an SDA? Of course you have. So what improvements have you made to your view of the Gospel?

What have you learned; aside from the obvious that the IJ is a false judgment; and that our Sanctification is not salvific, as the SDA’s teach?

What is your revised Gospel view of the Sabbath? What about tithe? Do you agree with Fredericks that Sunday is the weekly day for the church to worship (and pay tithe); or with Dr. Ford, who claims that only the 7th day is the correct Sabbath for the church?

Many of the so-called SDA Evangelicals, like Richard Fredericks and Dale Ratzlaff, have determined that the Lord’s Day is Sunday and thus there is no 7th day Gospel Sabbath for the church. Is this your view as well? If it is, you do not understand the NT or the Gospel correctly.

I know that you became a Methodist minister for a number of years, so I guess your Gospel is Sunday based? Especially since you say you have “moved on” from Adventism.

So you are a Sunday man. Fine. But this means you have a distorted and wrong view of the law and the Gospel. It also means you are not following Jesus as you claim, nor do you know how to correctly read the NT.

Sorry to be the one to tell you, and the Fredericks crowd, the bad news. But at some point, the facts had to emerge for all to see.

How can Sunday be a valid doctrine in either the Old or New Covenant? This is theologically impossible and absurd, as anyone will discover who honestly studies the NT.

Maybe you are rethinking the doctrine of the Sabbath? However, if that were the case then you would be moving TOWARDS Adventist theology, not away from it as you claim. So what is your story?

A person’s view of the Sabbath relates very closely to their view of the Gospel. A false Gospel will lead to a false doctrine of the Sabbath, even as the opposite is also the case. All that embrace Sunday today, have an incorrect view of the law and the Gospel, as well as church history and the teachings of Jesus.

But guess what?

The SDA’s also have the wrong doctrine of the Sabbath. They have the right day, but so too did the Old Covenant Jews. And like the Jews, they have the wrong doctrine of the 7th day Sabbath.

So don’t misunderstand and think I am defending or promoting the Old Covenant Sabbath doctrine of the legalistic and confused SDA’s. That is not what is taking place. Dr. Ford and Tom Norris are promoting the 7th day, Gospel Sabbath. Which is very different from what the SDA’s and Sunday keepers teach.

Why did the “evangelical” SDA’s fail to discover the true Gospel Sabbath? It has been in the NT from the very beginning. How could they miss it? How could you?

Answer: Because few were paying attention to the Gospel or to the teachings of Dr. Ford. Those that have turned against the Sabbath have made fools of themselves, even as they have deceived many with their double-talk.

It is sad that the brightest and best, like Richard Fredericks, who was given so many advantages by the Denomination, fell away from the Gospel and failed to move Adventism forward after Glacier View. There was little search for truth by this arrogant and opportunistic crowd that seemed intent on using Dr. Ford’s theology for their own self-interest.

No wonder Dr. Ford had to separate from Richard Fredericks and “evangelical” Adventism. Ford could not support such blatant rebellion against the Gospel. Unless Fredericks repents to both Dr. Ford and Heaven, he is a lost man, a wolf in sheep’s clothing that will not pass the Judgment.

In fact, Fredericks never understood the Gospel correctly or the Adventist Apocalyptic, and today he is a blind man leading others into his confused cult. Are you also following his wretched, Laodicean example? Making up your own views? Wanting to control a church like a drill sergeant?

Do you too want to be like Richard, with a church full of gullible followers that will pay you to lead them to hell?

Many pastors lust after such a self-serving situation. What a pity that money plays such a large part in religion. For most religious leaders, it’s all about the money. Truth is not the issue or the point of anything they do. They are running a business. They need to fill the seats and pander to the people in the process. It is organized blasphemy that has been predicted and condemned in the NT.

Dr. Ford had, and still has, the correct view of the Gospel and the Three Angels Messages, including the doctrine of the Sabbath. So why did Fredericks repudiate Dr. Ford? On what basis? His ego? Why did you? Neither one of you are as educated or wise as Dr. Ford. And time only makes this fact more apparent.

Those that moved away from Dr. Ford’s views, are moving away from the Gospel and away from correct eschatology. They are dishonest and delusional. They must repent of their confused theology and false doctrines or be lost. Are you ready to do this?

Would Dr. Ford endorse your Gospel and your view of the Sabbath? Or your eschatology? The answer is no.

You have not found the genuine Gospel as you claim, (and neither has Fredericks), nor do you have a coherent position about the Sabbath, or eschatology. Sorry to be the one to tell you, (and Richard), the bad news.

So I think you need Adventist Reform in the worst way, and so too Richard Fredericks. Had he understood it, he would have been a great success by now, with a chain of REFORMED Adventist churches. But not now. Real success will only go to those preachers that comprehend and teach the genuine Gospel and the correct New Covenant Sabbath. This is where the action will be in the future.

The Gospel is Semitic

The Gospel is a Semitic and Sabbatarian paradigm. Thus, the discussion of SDA theology is not only relevant, but also necessary and required. There is no escape from Adventist influence for anyone.

The SDA’s, regardless of their many faults, were correct to point out that Sunday is a fraudulent doctrine that is against the Gospel and against the teaching of Jesus.

They were also correct to claim that the 7th day will become part of the final Gospel Message preceding the 2nd Coming.

Too bad they embraced the wrong, Old Covenant Sabbath instead of the New Covenant doctrine that Jesus teaches. What a foolish error. They were so close…

The Old Covenant/ New Covenant Sabbath

While the SDA’s embraced Sabbath Reform as their primary mission, the search for the true Sabbath is not over or complete for them. They were correct to repudiate the 1st day of the week, but wrong to embrace the Old Covenant Sabbath of the Jews instead of the New Covenant Sabbath of Christ.

They have never fully understood nor embraced the Protestant Gospel or the New Covenant, 7th day Sabbath fully or correctly. No denomination has.

This is what still must be done. The errors of the 3rd Angels Message must be corrected and repented of. Then the final Advent Message, the 4th, will represent correct and true doctrine, including the new and improved doctrine of Sabbath Reform, which is dramatically different from what any church today teaches.

While we both agree that the SDA Gospel is wrong, and so too their OC view of the Sabbath, that does not mean there is no Gospel truth within Adventist eschatology, or that there is not a New Covenant Sabbath for the church. There is.

Thanks to Dr. Ford, and now Tom Norris, the Gospel Sabbath is emerging for all to see, study, and discuss. It is a great theological discovery that will change everything for the faltering and confused Advent Movement.

So there is much truth in Adventism. It should not be overlooked or wasted.

Bob said: Well Tom, if God has given you a message and a paradigm, go for it.

Tom said: The Gospel Message is given to all, and so too the gifts of the spirit. It is the duty of every Christian to understand the unfolding Gospel Story and keep studying the Word for present truth.There is only one Gospel. Any “message” or theological construct must carefully conform to the teaching of the NT. That is the challenge for any trying to apply the Gospel in the contemporary world.

So far, organized religion has fallen flat for all to see. It’s not just the SDA’s that have been caught with mountains of false doctrine, double-talk, and corruption. All churches are wrong about most everything, the Sabbath being the most public and obvious. Not one church or denomination today has a correct Gospel, Sabbath, or understanding of last day events. All churches teach one myth and false doctrine after another. It is a circus of deception, with the blind leading the blind.

All that seek truth in the last days will be eager to repudiate error and repent. This is the duty of all Laodiceans. Repentance and doctrinal reform is what heaven wants to see. Not more religious double-talk intended to avoid the issues.

Bob said: I never connected with what you call the 'fourth angel'.

Tom said: Too bad for you and others. I never understood how anyone could be an SDA Pastor or Teacher and not understand about the eschatology of the Three Angels Messages, including the 4th Angels Message. This is such a fundamental point of Adventism, that I am always stunned at the level of misinformation and ignorance from those that should know better.
One reason why so many avoided this topic is because the legalists, like Weiland, promoted the 4th Angels Message by claiming it represented the perfection of the last generation of SDA’s. The TSDA’s ruined true eschatology and made it worthless and wrong.

While it would have made more sense for you and Richard Fredericks, etc to have figured this out long ago, it is still not too late for everyone to properly understand the fundamentals of the Adventist Apocalyptic.

Ignorance is not a gift of the spirit and many SDA’s should hang their head in shame for being so wrong and uninformed about such matters.

The 4th Angels Message represents the future of Protestant /Adventist theology. This is where the SDA church has been heading from the very beginning. It is the goal of the Advent Movement to arrive at such an eschatological place.

But few have any idea how such things work. Many SDA pastors were so poorly trained about Historic Adventism that it is no wonder so few knew what they were preaching about. No wonder the SDA’s self-destructed in great debate and schism. They were confused and wrong about many things, even as they refused to listen to those, like Dr. Ford, that had the answers.

Fredericks was so disoriented about theology that he actually endorsed double tithing and urged it relentlessly upon his church, even as he repudiated the Sabbath and embraced the Sunday fraud, fiercely attacking Adventism in the process. But he only exchanged one set of false doctrines for another. Except he is now in charge of what has become a religious business for him. The members are his customers. It is a Laodicean farce and a Gospel fraud. I pity such fools that think they have received Eternal life, when the opposite is the case.

Before one can understand the 4th Angels Message, the previous Three must be understood correctly, starting with the Gospel, Judgment, and the Sabbath. But few have understood Adventist history or doctrine correctly because the modern SDA church was more interested in promoting propaganda and indoctrinating millions into believing things that were never true. You and Richard were part of that circus.

The 4th Angels Message is an eschatological term from the 19th century SDA’s. It is about a future time, in Rev 18, when the Gospel will be preached with great power, truth, and theological precision; stunning the world and dividing the church in the process.

This message also features a warning that the Great Tribulation is about to strike, as well as the implementation of a plan to get the church out of harms way. In other words, this is cutting edge eschatology that requires concrete planning and dramatic action.

Thus, the Laodicean church will be divided into those that repent for their false doctrine and those that will not. Every denomination, and every believer, will be tested with truth, even as every church and person in the land has already been judged wretched and wrong, commanded by Jesus to repent for false doctrine or be lost.

The SDA’s always taught the end of the world would take place, not under the 3rd Angels Message, which is the era of the Old Covenant minded SDA’s, but under a new, Adventist Message called the 4th Angels Message.

The reason why so many became intrigued with the history of 1888, is because Ellen White connected Waggoner’s Gospel theology as the beginning of the 4th Angels Message. But as you know, the Battle Creek church rejected the Gospel, which prevented any theological advancement to the next message, which was the 4th.

Sadly, Glacier View was a repeat of the 1888 history. Dr. Ford was the modern day Waggoner, trying to reform the SDA’s and move them forward to a new, Gospel based message, which of course is this 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.

As you know, in 1980, the church rejected the Gospel one more time, even as a repeat of the great Battle Creek schism took place, leaving the denomination spiritually cold, and confused. Thus, we have all witnessed the termination of the 3rd Angels Message. Glacier View was the end of Traditional Adventism. Dr. Ford had fatally wounded this legalistic beast.
Which means it is time for the correct Gospel and the correct Sabbath to be understood along with credible, Gospel based eschatology for the 21st century. This is the next level of the Advent Movement, the 4th.

There will be a final reformation in the church before the Tribulation hits, but yet where are the reformers? They have all run away in confusion. Sad.

Just because the 3rd Angels Message has crashed and burned, it does not follow that the 4th automatically rushes in to fill the void. No. The 4th Angels Message must be developed out of the ashes of the failed Advent Movement. This is what must take place next. This is the point of Adventist Reform.

In other words, there is life for Adventism after the demise of the SDA’s. As the 3rd Angels Message continues to self-destruct, overwhelmed by corruption and false doctrine, a new phase of Adventism will emerge for all to see. One that is based on the original “pillars” of the Three Angels Messages.

Those with knowledge of these things are late in moving forward. Much time has been wasted. It is now time to embrace and promote the apostolic Gospel, resolve the Sabbath debate, and develop a relevant and contemporary eschatology for the modern world. It is time for Gospel action, not Gospel double-talk and more false doctrine.

The SDA’s teach that just before the Tribulation starts, there will be a final (Protestant) reformation in the church. This will require a new organization, even as a new Gospel Sabbath will also emerge for all to see.

Does the NT teach a final Reformation of the church prior to the Tribulation? Is there a future time when the Gospel will be correctly and fully preached to the world?

Yes.

Bob said: The only fourth angel I know of in the Scripture is found in Revelation 18:1-4 and it involves a call to come out of false religion and the world system and preparing for the judgments to come upon both in preparation for His soon return. In John's day it was a call to come out of Rome and not be a part of her plagues.

Tom said: You are correct. This is the same one that the SDA’s have located and identified as the fulfillment of the previous 3 messages. They called it the 4th Angels Message because it followed the 3rd, from Rev 14.

The SDA’s identified America as the Image to the (Roman) Beast. They predicted that the US would become corrupt the thus at some point the church would have to flee from (Sunday) persecution.

So instead of the Laodicean church being called out of Rome, it would be called out of a fallen America, so as to escape the coming plagues.

At some point, the end has to come. Considering the precarious state of the world, it would seem wise to figure this out sooner rather than later. The Adventists were correct to try and figure out how the world would end, and so too those that try to understand today.

Jesus teaches that the church is to remain on the alert for signs of the end. How ironic, that as the event comes closer then ever, the entire church falls asleep?

Luke 21:36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Matt. 25:5 “Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.

Bob said: This message is already being proclaimed by me and others all around the world.

Tom said: Ha! This is too funny. Where is this correct Gospel that shocks and overturns the religious world? Where is this amazing Gospel Sabbath that accompanies this last message?

I am not aware of any such message that could claim to represent the full and complete Gospel of Rev 18. Much less one that has also located the correct Gospel Sabbath and articulates plausible eschatology.

Please share this final Gospel message with the rest of us. I would love to see it.

For the record Bob, there is not one denomination that teaches the doctrine of the Gospel or the Sabbath correctly, including the SDA’s. In fact, the reason why there is such universal error and confusion about the Sabbath, is precisely because the church does not understand the law or the Gospel correctly. They do not understand NT or the teachings of Christ, nor do they have a proper view of church history.

If you have finally solved the debate over the Gospel and the Sabbath, please share it with the rest of us, including how the world will really end. But last time I looked, you were in the pulpit on Sunday, claiming that the time of trouble had already arrived. Both positions are great errors, of which you need to repent.

Bob said: The last move of God will not have any man's name on it.

Tom said: Those in the world and the church have names; especially those that stand up and promote Gospel Reform. This is why such names as Paul and Luther are so well known to all. So too the name of Dr. Ford within the SDA Community. Everyone has a name in the Kingdom of God. None are anonymous.

Thus through all the long ages of the church, the names of its leaders and preachers has been well known to both man and God. Nothing is going to change this pattern at the end of time. Christians have names. They are not anonymous as you claim.
The NT teaches that anonymous people never accomplished Gospel Reform, so it is too late for this Holy pattern to be broken. No. People with real names will step up and do their duty. Just like in the NT, which is full of the names of those that were involved in reforming Judaism.

Just as the first church was organized, developed, and managed by many NAMED people, so too will the last church. Not only are the leaders names included in the NT record, so too are the names of even a slave and his master, as well as many others, like those that had churches in their homes. The church is not a faceless, nameless, operation.

At the end of time, like in ages past, God will lead specific individuals to preach the Gospel and eschatology correctly. This is what is shown taking place in Rev 18. Real people, with real names, will organize the final Gospel Message that precedes the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming.

The question is this: Will Pastor Bob Brown participate in this final Gospel Proclamation? Will his name be written alongside the many other Gospel Reformers, like Dr. Ford and Tom Norris?

Not only are our personal names very important to heaven, we will receive new names in the new age. Underscoring the point that there are no nameless saints, only those with real names.

Thus, when Jesus teaches that even the hairs of our heads are numbered, it also means he knows each of our names so that he can “confess” us to God. None that embrace the Gospel are nameless, faceless people. Heaven knows them all, and so too will those on earth know their names, especially those that stand up for the Gospel and tell the truth about the Word.

Rev. 2:17 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’

Luke 12:6 “Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God.

Luke 12:7 “Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

Luke 12:8 “And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God;

I am not ashamed to have my name associated with Gospel Reform, are you? I stand by Dr. Ford and his correct understanding of the Gospel. Others are free to hide in the shadows, unable to defend their false doctrines or to fully commit to the Word. So be it. Each to their own.

Bob said: If God has called you to make a call to Adventists to repent then that is what you should do. God has not called me to that work.

Tom said: Adventist Reform is targeted to the entire Adventist Community, including those that have left the church. So this message is directed to you, as well as those that have stayed in the church. Both groups need to repent for their doctrinal errors and grave misunderstanding about the Gospel and church history.

I would also think that God has called all former SDA pastors, like yourself, to help the disoriented SDA’s find the Gospel as well as the New Covenant Sabbath, and correct, 21st century eschatology.

God does not call people away from Gospel truth. Rather he leads them to it. I think you have a duty to keep searching for truth, and to help the Adventist Community find the full Gospel, which would be called the 4th Angels Message in SDA eschatology.

No doubt you also have a duty to help those that you failed to fully teach the Gospel over the years. How many have heard a confused Gospel, and a confused Sabbath from your lips? Thus it is time for “zealous repentance” from all who seek truth.

Bob said: Again you fail to understand what I said. If you think by resting I meant enjoying my life here on earth then I say 'ha' back at you. I've been doing more saving of souls, preaching and teaching then you have.

Tom said: I have no doubt about your passion for the Gospel, but I have serious doubts that you have a fully correct, state of the art Gospel, which of course includes credible, NT eschatology.

In fact, if you think the Tribulation has already started, then you are following a false Gospel, and a false view of eschatology, because the NT does not support such a view.

As for saving of souls: Let’s hope that your version of the Gospel will amount to something worthwhile in peoples lives. But Sunday is not a sign of the Gospel, but rather, a clue that false doctrine abounds. Nor do the Methodists have a worthwhile, contemporary mission.

So the issue is not who is preaching and teaching the most, but who is teaching the Gospel CORRECTLY. This is the great test for all in Laodicea, regardless of denomination.

Where is truth for the 21st century?

The last time we met, you were a pastor at a Methodist church. I can assure you that Sunday is not the New Covenant Sabbath. Any today that embraces this false doctrine, or enables it, are misrepresenting and working against the Gospel. They are not to be cheered, as if they have found some great insight.

No. They have only found false and absurd doctrine that has no basis in either the Old or the New Covenants. Thus a web of error surrounds all those that embrace Sunday, even as their eschatology is absurd and worthless, and so too their politics and all else.

How does one save souls with a false and confused Gospel?

While the preaching of a cultural Gospel does indeed keep our society civilized, it also supports a corrupt religious industry that likes the status quo that comes with lots of benefits to the clergy. But such religion is a farce. It will not deliver Eternal Life. Nor does it really advertise this often forgotten point of the Gospel.

So the question is this: how many people have embraced Eternal Life because of your ministry? 5? 10? 50? 100? 1,000? 10,000?

How many could you reach if you had the Gospel 100% correct, the Sabbath debate resolved, and credible eschatology articulated?

Whatever numbers you think you have led to Eternal Life, multiply them X 1,000. Then do it again a few more times, and perhaps you might understand what could happen when a clear and correct Gospel is preached in the context of contemporary eschatology.

In other words, whatever “success” you have found in the past, it would be greatly surpassed if you had better, more precise and correct theology. The same goes for Fredericks as well.

I note for the record that it is dangerous for anyone to think too highly of his or her spiritual exploits. There is a class of Christians in the last days that are locked out of heaven in spite of their many religious accomplishments for Jesus.

Rom. 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

The preaching, teaching, and praying of the Laodiceans is worthless and wrong. Many have spent their entire lives preaching the Gospel only to understand that had it all wrong. Their theology, and their “fruit,” was worthless. Beware.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

So are you really saving souls? Or just hawking an immature and worthless Jesus, one that is a hybrid of your own, checkered religious experience?

Most all religious pastors and talking heads today are selling a fraudulent Gospel, and there is no use pretending otherwise. Religion is a business, and the typical pastor is either operating as an employee of a denomination, or he has set up his own independent franchise. Either way, it is more about money than anything else. The search for truth is irrelevant, and so too the very concept of doctrinal truth.

In fact, the Laodicean Message condemns the theology of every denomination at the end of time. What was once a prophecy is now fulfilled for all to see. Look around and understand that the church, (meaning every denomination, and church in the land), though full of money and great buildings, is a spiritual wasteland, unprepared for the great tribulation that is so close, and for the Day of Judgment, which is the 2nd Coming.

Bob said: How many have repented because of your ministry? How many have been saved?

Tom said: If this were a competition, I would have kept a better record. But it is more important to understand the Gospel and how to relate it to the present time. That is the real issue.

As for my record, I have been online for the past 10 years, on a number of web sites, promoting the genuine Gospel and correcting the many errors of Adventism, including the doctrine of the Sabbath, and the Pre-Advent Judgment, and even the Eucharist, as well as many other things. So I have been busy.

http://www.allexperts.com/ep/2318-70484 … Norris.htm

However, I only do this in my spare time, and for free, (unlike so many paid, full time Pastors and teachers). But nonetheless, I have followed in the footsteps of Dr. Ford and have educated thousands to better understand the Gospel and church history, including the doctrine of the Sabbath and the Judgment.

I have also explained and documented the details of 1888 that has so confused the SDA’s for so many years. Proving that not only was Dr. Ford correct at Glacier View, but exposing a great crime in the White Estate that has yet to be addressed by the Adventist Community or the legal system.

Here is a link to what “real people” have said about Adventist Reform and Tom Norris. This only represents a small portion of what I could show you. Adventist Reform has not only saved many, it will also save the Advent Movement from its present, self-destructive and incorrect course. What have you been doing for the kingdom of God? Where are those that thank you for answering their questions? Where are your reviews about what you teach?)

http://www.allexperts.com/expert.cgi?m= … xpID=70484

Furthermore, my online AToday Interview with Dr. Ford still stands as a historical landmark for all to see. It proves that Dr. Ford’s views have never been disproven by anyone, nor has anyone from the Denomination dared step forward for an honest debate.

http://www.goodnewsunlimited.org/librar … /intro.cfm

This detailed and comprehensive interview took place directly after Richard Fredericks walked out on Dr. Ford and repudiated the Gospel and the Sabbath. This interview set the record straight and cleared up a lot of slander and confusion that was coming not only from the SDA’s, but also from the confused and incompetent “evangelical” crowd, led by the ambitious and confused Fredericks.

This important interview has helped thousands around the world better understand the Gospel, as well rehabilitate the slandered and misunderstood reputation of Dr. Ford and the Three Angels Messages.

This is something that Fredericks should have done all along, but you see, he was only using Dr. Ford’s theology as a means to make himself great and important. He never fully understood, nor embraced, the genuine Gospel, or Adventist eschatology, which explains why he is in such deep theological darkness and delusion today. The cult of Richard is going nowhere, much less to the New Jerusalem.

Moreover, I have led many to repent of Traditional Adventism and a long list of false SDA doctrines, like tithe, the IJ, Sunday based time of Trouble, and the Old Covenant Sabbath, to name a few.

Adventist Reform has gained traction because it has not only exposed the many myths that remain part of Adventism, but also because it holds fast to that which is correct and true. Thus the point of Adventist Reform is to correct the errors and push Adventist theology to the next, and final level, which is the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18.

In short, thousands have a much better understanding of the Gospel and eschatology because of Adventist Reform. Which is why you can Google Adventist Reform or Tom Norris, and find all sorts of Gospel instruction.

In fact; just goggle “Gospel Sabbath” and see what comes up? Or goggle Tom Norris and any doctrine and see what comes up? (Try; Tom Norris and 1888).

I Goggled your name and came up with zero! What are you teaching? Where is your message? What do people say about you? Show us?

Let’s be blunt shall we?

Neither you nor Fredericks are ready for prime time Gospel preaching. Those that don’t fully understand the Gospel or the Sabbath, are dangerous people. They mislead and deceive many. But this is normative for those that make their living from religion. They take advantage of the ignorance of the people, even as they manufacturer guilt and lead them down strange paths, all in the name of Jesus of course.

But such a false and confused Gospel will not hold up in the Judgment. Unless Richard repents for his many false and arrogant doctrines, he is doomed and so too those stupid enough to follow his false and self-serving, Sunday based Gospel Story.

Bob said: I'm resting in that rest Jesus said those would experience who come to Him and abide in Him. "Come unto Me and find rest for your soul." My soul is what is at rest, not my arse. And this is the kind of judgmentalness and self-righteousness that I've moved on from Tom.

Tom said: Ha! Many think they are resting in Jesus, but if they took the trouble to pay close attention to the Word, they would discover that their Jesus is a fraud and that they have been following a worthless, hybrid Christ.

In fact, while Paul charges the Corinthians with following a false Christ of their own making, Jesus condemns the entire Laodicean Church for making the same mistake. All denominations are guilty of promoting a false Gospel along with a long list of errors, of which the Sabbath is the most public and visible.

So the facts of theology speak louder than the many pastors who declare themselves saved and resting in Christ. Most in Laodicea are not saved, nor have they embraced the genuine Christ of the Gospels as they pretend. This is why the LM is so harsh and all encompassing.

Today, there is no place to hide from the tough questions about the Gospel, or from the real Pre Advent Judgment, which is the LM.

Claiming to be “in Jesus” is no excuse to embrace false doctrine, much less a false Christ. Those who claim to be saved by Christ’s Righteousness had better make sure they have the genuine Gospel, especially when it is being pointed out to them that they have embraced a fraud. Otherwise, they are just deluding themselves.

Christ is telling all Laodiceans, in every church and denomination, to confess their many false doctrines and REPENT. None are exempted.

Adventist Reform is targeted to the SDA’s, but that does not mean the other churches are any better off. According to heaven, they are all naked, blind and wretched. Unsaved and headed for hell unless they repent and embrace true Gospel doctrine.

The NT gives no one any permission to run from the Gospel or double talk about theology. Nor should any theologian get their feelings hurt when pressed to explain their Gospel. Such a reaction is not from the Spirit. Those who act in such a defensive fashion must not understand the Gospel very well.

Bob said: And this is the 'spirit' and attitude that is not of Christ. If you truly cared there would be tears and a broken heartedness in your words. I detect no love in your words, only revenge and bitterness Tom.

Tom said: Ha! So you think Jesus and the apostles could not be blunt or to the point? Or that they were so emotional and unstable that they cried on cue, like so many false preachers today?

Have you read Matt 23 or Galatians 1, or the other passages where those that embraced false doctrine were lambasted for cause? You obviously missed these passages of scripture.

Regardless, I can assure you that the call for repentance and Gospel Reform has nothing to do with personal revenge, much less bitterness. That is absurd and makes no sense.

I have never been employed for the church in any capacity and thus I have never been abused by them, or passed over for a promotion, etc. Perhaps you have me confused with Richard Fredericks. When he couldn’t get the position he wanted at CUC, as head of the theology department, he embarked on a plan of revenge that included stealing the Damascus SDA church from the Denomination, and then bitterly denouncing the Sabbath and everything Adventist.

Richard Fredericks is the poster child for revenge and bitterness. Although the SDA’s made him the man he is today, paying him hundreds of thousands of dollars and paying for his education, housing, and health benefits, he double-crossed them, took advantage of them, and then bitterly denounced them, even as he turned his back on Dr. Ford and went his own way.
So please save your lectures for those that really deserve them.

All churches go bad. This should be obvious by now, even as the Jews, the original people of God, also rebelled and went bad. So what is the point of being disappointed or bitter about this pattern of failure?

The NT teaches that every church at the end of time is wretched, blind, and naked. We must deal with reality, not delusions.
Those that promote genuine Gospel Reform are motivated by the toughest of love, which often seems like something else to those on the wrong end of the discussion. No amount of love or kindness can excuse a false Gospel in the church. Sorry.

Moreover, those with a sloppy and confused Gospel should not lash out at those who know what they’re talking about. “If you truly cared” about the Gospel, you would have a better attitude towards this discussion of Gospel Reform, even as you would have repudiated and condemned those, like Fredericks, that have embraced a false Gospel and an incorrect view of the Sabbath and most everything else.

If you cared about the many people you have misled over the years, you would know that it is your responsibility and duty to go back and correct your Gospel errors. Those who have stood in the pulpit, preaching error and confusion had better repent and make things right. This is what the true Gospel teaches.

Bob said: God sent Dr. Ford and they crucified him like the Jews did Christ. So I left them and I'm not looking back. Like Samson, they did not know that God had left him. Like the Jews, they did not know the hour of their visitation.

Tom said: While you may be right that the SDA’s have gone too far, we do not know that for certain, nor does it matter. They still must be given a chance to understand, repent, and reform, just like all others. Just like the Jews, who were granted probation for many decades after they rejected the Gospel.

If the SDA’s don’t repent and reform, then the work of the Advent Movement will go forward with another organization that respects the Protestant Gospel as well as the fundamentals of the Adventist Apocalyptic.

Neither Gospel Reform, nor the formation and development of the 4th Angels Message are dependent upon the SDA’s for anything else. When the Gospel, and the Sabbath are fully understood, and world events have given clarity to contemporary eschatology, then the final Gospel message will be sounded. Thus the preaching of the Gospel will conclude the way it started; with a call to repentance, and the promotion of the reformed, active Sabbath of Jesus.

Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mark 1:14-15 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Because the 7th day Sabbath, (NC style), will be part of this final Gospel Message to the church, the SDA’s are forever involved in this final history. This is why SDA theology is relevant for anyone trying to understand 21st century eschatology today.

Do not misunderstand, those that left the church, were correct to do so. But they were not correct to repudiate whatever truth the SDA’s had managed to find. No. They should have corrected the errors, preserved what was true, and moved forward to find more truth. But that is not what happened. Sad.

Bob said: There will be no new organization....only judgment.

Tom said: Just as the first church was organized, so too will the last church. If the apostles were organized and the leaders were known and named, so too the last church.

So there is no basis to think this pattern is going to change. Nor does it make any sense to pretend that some supernatural transition will take place in the church, led by nameless, faceless people. Life does not work that way, either in or out of the church.

At the end of time, there will be a new religious organization that will be faithful and true to the Gospel. It will be led by real people, with real names. It will not be hierarchal in nature, nor will it be managed from a back room, where propaganda and double-talk are viewed as gifts of the spirit.

What is pictured in Rev 18 is a remarkably organized, united, and functional organization. One that finally understands the Gospel and modern eschatology, and promotes it with clarity, passion, and precision.

Bob said: If God has called you and commissioned you to reform SDAism then it's best to be obedient, but I doubt that He has.
Tom said: Have you considered the possibility that God has called YOU to help reform Adventism? There should be no doubt that it needs major reform, and that there is great demand for a functional, eschatologically minded church in our modern world that is fast heading towards the Tribulation.

God calls all to do their duty and be faithful with whatever opportunities and talents they are given, for the good of others. Gospel Reform in the church is the by-product of understanding the Gospel. It is not an option for anyone in Laodicea.
Gospel Reform, starting with the SDA’s, will challenge every church. They have been in debate about this point for generations, and the time has come to end the debate and take the Advent Movement to the next level. To the 4th Angels Message.

Bob said: He (God) called Dr. Ford to do it and like John the Baptist they asked for his head.

Tom said: No one every said that Gospel Reform was not a dangerous occupation. It has been fatal to many, starting with John the Baptist, and then Jesus. Dr. Ford should be very thankful that he walked on the stage of history at a time when the church was prohibited from torturing and killing him. We should all be thankful for that.

So what is the fear today? What is the risk? Not much as compared to ancient times.

If Dr. Ford was called by God to reform the SDA church, (and I, like you, agree that he was), then others are also called to further this work. God does not call one man to promote Gospel Reform, but many. The very fact that you know God called Dr. Ford means that he has also called YOU.

Do you remember who showed up in New Jersey, in the pouring rain when you were being ordained by the Methodists to the Gospel ministry? It was Dr. Ford. The man that was called to reform the SDA church.

Why do you think he was there? To promote Gospel Reform to the Methodists? Hardly. He was there to honor your call to the Gospel ministry so that you could further the mission of Gospel Reform in the Adventist Community.

I suggest that you wake up and pay attention to those whom you admit have been called by God, even as you find the courage to publicly condemn those like Fredericks who are so very wrong and dishonest.

Bob said: You need to separate yourself from SDAism and form a little company in your area that believes like you do....and go from there. The Internet can only inform.

Tom said: First, don’t underestimate the Internet. It can do far more than just inform. Had the Internet been around in 1980, Glacier View could not have taken place.

Second, I have long ago “separated” from Traditional Adventism. I don’t waste my time going to an SDA church today because there is just too much false doctrine and stupidity taking place. They are not searching for truth, but for more effective ways to indoctrinate people and take their money.

Third; At some point soon, it will be time to start up new churches, even a new denomination, but not until a comprehensive Gospel plan has been worked out. This is what needs to be developed first. Then, those who have the gifts of preaching and teaching should indeed form companies and churches as you suggest. (This is why we are having the conversation)

It was a big mistake for Richard Fredericks, and the other so-called “evangelicals,” to try and establish a chain of reformed Adventist churches when they had neither a comprehensive plan nor correct doctrine. They made fools of themselves, hurt a lot of people, and wasted much time. They solved nothing and failed to move Adventism forward. They became part of the problem when they were supposed to be the solution.

There is no need to repeat such nonsense. When the time comes to publicly promote Adventist Reform, and set up reformed Adventist churches, it will be done correctly, transparently, and in accordance with the fundamentals of the Protestant / Adventist Faith, or not at all.

Bob said: It's already happening, open your eyes and look outside of Adventism. The Protestant Reformation was over back in the time of the Wesley’s and probably ended with the Advent message.

Tom said: The Protestant Reformation is far from over. The Laodicean church, meaning all denominations, has been condemned for embracing a false Gospel. Thus a final Reformation is predicted at the end of time, see Rev 18.

So there is a future time when both Protestant, Catholic, and Cult will be faced with a new Gospel package unlike anything they have every seen or heard before. There will even be a new doctrine of the Sabbath associated with this final Gospel proclamation, even as new and more relevant eschatology will fall into place for all to see.

Continued:

tom_norris · 09-04-10 2:33 pm

Bob said: There will be no new organization, but a new organism led by the Spirit with Jesus alone as the Head.

Tom said: The spirit supports order and organization in the church. There is no use denying such a clear fact, or the additional fact that they all had names. This is why the NT shows Paul carefully organizing the church.

Titus 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Titus 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,

New Gospel wine cannot exist in old wine skins. Even if the SDA’s were to repent for 1888 and Glacier View, they would still have to change their organizational structure because it is against the Gospel. A hierarchal, male controlled, tithe based, religious system, is not compatible with the Gospel. It is an abomination.

So there must be a new organizational model developed regardless. This is not optional, but mandatory.

Bob said: The gospel has done quite well without SDAism and will continue to do so.

Tom said: Ha! The Gospel has always had an uphill climb from the very beginning and so it will always be until the end of the world. The fact of the matter is that the Gospel has done very poorly. It always loses out and is quickly covered up with myths and errors. This is the real pattern of the Gospel Story.

In fact, there are only a few times in history when the Gospel emerges with clarity, purpose, and power.

Moreover, don’t confuse the word “church” with “Gospel,” because they are two very different things. The genuine Gospel, which was never accepted by the Jews, was lost by the end of the first century, but the church survived and soon conquered the Roman world.
But the Gospel was lost in the process of empire building. It was found by the Reformers, but it faded away and it is still misunderstood and lost today. That is why there is one final Gospel Reformation yet to sound. One last great correction that will complete the Protestant Reformation.

As for the Adventists, they corrected the error of post-millennialism and set the modern church on the proper course to find the 7th day Gospel Sabbath. Without such corrections, the church would be even more wrong about the Gospel than it is today.

How sad that the SDA’s have lost both their mission and message. How sad that they actually persecuted those that brought them the Gospel. They are just like the Jews who did the same thing.

Truth is progressive, and the Adventists are true eschatological reformers. The final Gospel proclamation will contain a significant amount of Adventist theology.

Bob said: Again, you take my words and take them out of context. I was referring to the SDA bickering and debating on food laws, tithe, etc. etc. I constantly have to defend the gospel on a daily basis. Right now I'm defending the keeping of the Sabbath on a forum.

Tom said: The debate about such details is normative. There was plenty of such bickering in the NT. It goes with the territory my friend. If you can’t handle such debates, get out of the Gospel ministry.

As for your recent defense of the Sabbath online, have you now switched back to the 7th day? If so, I guess you have not fully left Adventism as you claimed above? And if you never gave up on the Sabbath, then you really didn’t leave Adventism behind as you claimed?

So I am confused? But glad to see that you have found something of value within Adventism. However, if you want to understand the proper way to view the NC Sabbath, I suggest that you read the Reformed Sabbath discussions at the AT web site.

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=228

http://www.atomorrow.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=242

It is not every day that a new Gospel doctrine is discovered for all to see. But this is what has taken place. Who saw this coming?

Bob said: No church has the correct Gospel? That blanket statement isn't true.

Tom said: Sad to say, it is very true. But I am not the one who made this “blanket” statement. Its source is Rev 3, the LM. Jesus said it. The pre-advent judgment of the last church clearly says that none have the genuine Gospel. Read it for yourself and see if you can find any exclusions?

Rev. 3:15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

Rev. 3:16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Rev. 3:17 ‘Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,

I know this is hard for many people to absorb, but the entire religious community, meaning all denominations, has embraced a false Gospel and an incorrect doctrine of the Sabbath.

Today, I challenge you to find one church that has the genuine, NT Gospel of the early church! Go ahead make your case.

But guess what? Don’t show me any church that thinks Sunday is the Lord’s Day, the NT Sabbath. Any that takes such a view, have proven they have a false view of the law and the Gospel nor do they understand the teachings of Jesus.

Bob said: Do you think God is left without witnesses. Again, open your eyes. There are 7000 that have not bowed the knee to baal. But you won't get an argument from me that the gospel needs to be preached and taught over and over until it finds its central place.

Tom said: Where are those who will step up to the challenge of Gospel Reform? I am sure God has people on his side, but where are they? Not those like Fredericks, that ran off and attacked the Sabbath and repudiated Dr. Ford’s Gospel. Was he part of that 7,000? Hardly. That man has proven himself to be a wolf is sheep’s clothing for all to see.

Those that are genuine Christians need to repent and correct their false theology. Period.

Bob said: SDA’s Sophisticated? Really?

Tom said: Adventist eschatology is the most sophisticated, documented, and historically valid of all modern theological paradigms. They invented modern eschatology and nothing has changed this fundamental fact of history, or eclipsed it. The fact that they are confused and corrupt is beside the point.

The Three Angels Messages represent the beginning of modern eschatology. It is the standard platform for all eschatology today, meaning all denominations, even though few know this fact.

Bob said: You still think the Sabbath is the seal of God? You still think the USA is the false prophet?

Tom said: Regardless of the many errors of the SDA’s, they were very correct to claim that Sunday is a doctrinal fraud on many levels. They were also correct to teach that in the end, things will go bad in the Tribulation, even as America morphs into something evil. So the basic thrust of their eschatology is correct.

As for the Sabbath, if Sunday is wrong, then what is the correct Sabbath for the church, if any? Does the Gospel contain a Sabbath for the church? The SDA’s have said yes, as have the SDB’s, and others in the past.

The answer is yes.

The head of the church is also the Lord of the Sabbath. And it is this reformed Sabbath in the Gospels that is the true Sabbath for the church. Thus, when the Gospel is fully understood, the correct Sabbath will also emerge for all to see and marvel at. It has been in all 4 Gospels all along. And it is very different from what everyone expects and teaches.

Bob said: You think God doesn't accept a believer who rests on the first day and refrains from work and play? I do. But there is little true Sabbath keeping by seventh dayers as well as first dayers.

Tom said: God accepts only those who embrace the Gospel, even those who do so imperfectly.

But guess what? The typical Sabbath doctrine,- of either Sunday or Saturday,- is wrong. This idea that the Sabbath, (either Sunday or the 7th day), is a day of rest and inactivity is all-wrong. And so too this view that it is a sin to work on the Sabbath or buy products at the store, which resulted in Sunday “blue laws.”

The Gospel Sabbath is the OPPOSITE of what all churches teach, (regardless of the day). BOTH the Sunday and Sabbath Reformers are wrong about the Sabbath. Why? Because they misunderstand the Gospel teachings of Jesus.

This is why all must repent in Laodicea. They all have misunderstood the law and the Gospel. They ALL have embraced a false view of the Sabbath and the Gospel Story. Which means when the real Gospel Sabbath is unveiled, it will cause a great stir, even as it exposes the popular theology of all as utter fiction and Gospel error.

Bob said: Again, you misunderstand. I fight, but not within Adventism or without it. My battles are out here in the real world with real people. I have no desire for SDA disputes and fights.

Tom said: I agree that real people need to hear the correct Gospel and solid eschatology. Adventist Reform is not just for SDA’s. No. The development of the 4th and final Message represents the last Reformation, it is for all that want Eternal Life, and for all that want to be prepared for the Tribulation.

Those who understand the Gospel today will target their message as necessary. There is a reason why Jesus avoided marketing his message to the Gentiles, and so too the early church, which only targeted Jews. The Gospel needed to become more fully developed and organized before this message could be successfully expanded to the Gentiles. So too this situation.

In fact, Peter failed in his attempt to market the Gospel to the Gentiles. His lack of education, combined with his natural, Old Covenant legalism, resulted in a weak, law based Gospel that failed to impress the Gentiles. Peter is like the Traditional SDA’s, who have also failed to correctly teach the Gospel.

Of course Paul saves the day by correctly articulating the Gospel in no uncertain terms. He condemns the church leaders, by name and in public, for misunderstanding and distorting the Gospel. This example of Gospel Reform is our example.

Dr. Ford was correct to stand up and condemn the false Gospel and confused Judgment doctrine of the SDA’s, and so too any that also do the same thing today. And you were correct to walk out of Adventism, and so too all the others. But where is the forward progress? Where is the full and correct teaching about the Gospel, the Sabbath, and last day events?

Out of Adventism will come the final message of Gospel Reform, which includes Sabbath Reform. This prophetic process started long ago, and now, as the paradigm of the Three Angels Messages continues to unfold, the next Message is coming into view. It is the 4th Angels Message of Rev 18. It is an amazing articulation of the Gospel that will stun the blind and confused Laodicean Church, energizing those that repent to move forward.

Bob said: I am no longer pre-millennial but have studied and found amillenialism more in line with true Bible eschatology.

Tom said: You need to do more study because Dr. Ford condemns your view and so too do I. This idea that the Tribulation has already started is absurd and against the teaching of the NT, as well as against common sense. Are you smarter than Dr. Ford on this point? Hardly. The NT does not teach such confusion. Sorry.

Bob said: Amillennialists believe that the devil has already been loosed to gather his forces into an army to come up against God's people. Take a look at this eschatology. It is the truth.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/HopeoftheJews/chap19.htm

http://www.gospeltruth.net/millenniumisnotflethcer.htm

http://www.historicism.com/mauro/mauro70.htm

Tom said: This eschatology is trite and not very compelling. While it correctly refutes the Secret Rapture, it also refutes literalism and common sense. Jesus eschatological warnings were not limited to 70 AD, as this theology requires, and there are many passages that could be brought forward to prove this point.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Mark 13:19 “For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

Rev. 7:14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

In fact, Jesus teaches that the end will come in a context of normal and routine activity.

Luke 17:26 “And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

Luke 17:27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:28 “It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;

Luke 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and 1brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:30 “It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

Paul also teaches that peace and security will have been (seemingly) achieved in society just before the final Tribulation surprises the world. This is the opposite of what you are incorrectly promoting. So you need to repent of this nonsense.

1Th. 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

1Th. 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.

1Th. 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

1Th. 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

1Th. 5:5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

The NT teaches that there is going to be a great, worldwide Tribulation that is worse than anything previous. It has not started as yet, nor should anyone teach such an absurdity.

Jesus calls what is coming a “test of the whole world.” The horrific events of 70 ad are but a small sample of what is to come. Which is why we see Jesus informing the next to last church that they are going to be spared the Great Tribulation.

Rev. 3:7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

Rev. 3:8 ‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you ban open door, which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

Rev. 3:9 ‘Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie — I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

Rev. 3:10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Rev. 3:11 ‘I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Has this “testing” taken place yet? No. Who is ready for the great “test”? No one is ready. Laodicea will not be spared the Great Tribulation. We will face the full fury of a world gone mad, even the end of capitalism, and civilization as we know it. This is serious business. There is not much time left to understand Gospel Eschatology and ready.

The “testing time” is almost here. So I say to all: Get Ready!

Bob said: I note here that you did not affirm the need for prayer. What does that tell you about the sprituality and preparation you are espousing?

Tom said: Ha! I didn’t affirm the need to breath air and eat correctly either. So what? We are not making a list of affirmations but trying to explain the Gospel to those who have embraced confusion and error.

I pray that all such will be allowed to understand what is truth and what is not. But such affirmations are not to be confused with evidence. Adventist Reform is based on the facts of history and theology, not on emotion or personal prayer.

The Jews prayed as they sent Jesus to his death. And they continued to pray to God, both in public and private, as they persecuted those who embraced the Gospel and goaded the Romans into destroying them. What does that tell you about prayer? It has little value when those involved are determined to hold on to false doctrine.

The church was also famous for praying over those they were about to set on fire for heresy. Over and over in history, we see how prayer is used by the religious elites, and it is not very good. Sad.

This is not a discussion about sanctification or our private prayer lives, (which Jesus teaches, is something that should remain private).

Matt. 6:5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

Matt. 6:6 “But you, when you pray, ago into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Matt. 6:7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.

Matt. 6:8 “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
Moreover, because so many wolves and charlatans hide their false doctrines behind calls for prayer and other such ritual and jargon, I refuse to play such games.

Adventist Reform, is based on certain facts of history and theology. It is true because of the evidence presented, not because someone prays for it to be true or not.

I think we should all pray to understand our duty in regard to Adventist Reform, but all are free to do whatever they want. However, the time has come to promote correct Gospel eschatology to those in the Laodicean church. No doubt this even includes instruction about prayer, because so many have a false views of this doctrine as well.

Bob said: True, but you don't have it my brother, nor do you have the right spirit or heart. You have to love the brethren before you can help them. Jesus wept over the city under God's judgment and yet you are ready to bash them with a lawsuit. What's wrong with this picture?

Tom said: Ha! This is the standard line from those pastors caught with false doctrine. Rather than consider the possibility they could be wrong, it is easier to attack the messenger and thus deflect the charges of false doctrine.

How do you know that I don’t teach the correct Gospel as well as the correct doctrine of the Sabbath? Would you even know? Many people cannot tell what is truth.

So spare me your religious guilt trip. Those who were supposed to be teaching Gospel truth have fallen flat on their own faces for all to see. This includes you as well as Richard Fredericks, and may others. You both need to repent for your doctrinal errors, not try to pretend that Tom Norris has a wrong spirit. Only the facts have any weight or merit in this discussion, and it is on this basis alone that any conclusions should be reached.

As for lawsuits, many in the clergy arrogantly think the church should be immune from prosecution for wrongdoing. But this is self-serving nonsense. When the leaders commit crimes of abuse or fraud, etc, they need to be treated as the law would treat any such crime. This is why the RCC can no longer hide those that abuse children from the police. They do not have immunity from earthly justice and neither do the SDA’s.

So this idea that the SDA church can commit the largest publishing fraud in religious history, and not be held accountable is strange. Tom Norris uncovered a crime in the White Estate and he has a responsibility to see that justice is done and that the truth about Ellen White is told correctly. Adventist Reform stands for truth, not cover up. Part of its agenda is to correct the falsified record about Ellen White that has been manipulated and promoted to the public.

If the White Estate does not soon confess and correct the record, I can assure that they will be hauled into court for publishing fraud. The GC legal department knows this fact, even as they also know that Arthur White made many mistakes. But the point here is not to bring anyone to court, but to stop this ongoing fraud and correct the record. So if there is a court case out of all this, it will only be because the leaders refused to tell the truth; confess and correct the record. Their actions will determine if there is any legal action, and so far, they don't seem to care. They have been so dishonest for so long, they don't know how to repent or tell the truth. So be it. That is why this matter will end up in court for the world to see if they continue to pretend they are innocent.

How can anyone who is waiting for the Judgment of the world, think criminals in the church should avoid earthly justice for their crimes? That makes no sense.

Furthermore, Paul embraced the legal system of his day in order to spread the Gospel. I gladly follow his example in this matter. So what you think is wrong is not at all. You are wrong on many points, and so too the SDA's.

In conclusion, the time has come for those that want to follow Gospel truth forward,- to make a move.

The Advent Movement, which has gone through a number of distinct periods, is not over, nor has the last great Protestant Reformation taken place, which will divide the church between those who will repent of their false doctrines and those that will not.

The general mission of Adventism is noble, historic, and necessary. It features a progression of understanding about the Gospel Story in the context of the end of the world. It is a spirit filled warning to prepare for the coming events that will soon end society, as we know it, and to make sure we are right with God.

Today, it is time for this Gospel mission to become real once again, and for eschatology to become a driving force in the church. The religious error, double-talk, and confusion must stop, replaced with a credible theological package that is anchored to the Word and to common sense.

It is time for New Covenant Adventism. Which includes a very counter-intuitive and different, 7th day Gospel Sabbath. One that is different from what all others teach.

Who better to become involved with such a new, unique, and pedigreed movement, than a former SDA Pastor?
It is time for all that value Gospel truth to move forward.

The Great Tribulation is close at hand, and so too the end of the world and Judgment Day. It is time for the Advent Movement to pick itself out of the ditch and move forward, one person at a time.

Who is interested?

Tom Norris for 21st century, Adventist Reform

Old Abe · 09-04-10 3:40 pm

Tom
How mistakem can one get in their understanding of the Bible. The Bible is essentially the story of the Jews for as it says "salvation is of the jews"

That being said the Great Tribulation has already happened eg The Holocaust of the early to mid twentieth century.That was the "time of Jacob's Trouble" and with the close of it physical Israel was restored.

The SDA church is just one of many Christian(?) sects with their own peculiar brand of doctrine nothing more or less.We should not allow the anti Semitism of the 1800's blind us as to what is really happening in the world today.

tom_norris · 09-07-10 1:46 pm

Many misunderstand the fundamentals of the Gospel Story. Most think the OT is Jewish and the NT Gentile. But this is a great error of epic proportions. There is no truth to this popular myth.

Both the Old and New Covenants, are 100% Jewish. The Bible is Jewish, and so to Jesus and all the apostles, even as those that become Christians must also become true sons of Abraham, the father of the Jews, by faith.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Rom. 9:7 nor are they all children abecause they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”

Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are achildren of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

While the Two Covenants are similar in many ways, they are also very different from each other. And they are still Semitic, even though the Gentiles obviously play a larger role in the latter paradigm. But regardless, the Christian Faith is actually reformed Judaism that is based on the rabbinical teachings of Jesus, a Jew. The CHURCH is the new Israel of God. All church doctrine is Semitic.

Gal. 6:16 ...walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

This being said, the Great Tribulation of the Church, is not to be confused with the holocaust of the Jews. The Nation of Israel is not to be confused with the NT Israel of God, which is the Church.

Jesus clearly teaches there is going to be a future and final Tribulation for planet earth. A great time of “testing” that precedes the Second Advent, which is the Day of Judgment.

This concept of a final Judgment is part of both Covenants, and thus it is a well-known doctrine in all churches today, even as it is part of our culture, which also believes that the end of the world is on the way.

Furthermore, the SDA’s are not just one of many sects. They have a Protestant Pedigree, as well as a track record for helping the entire church better understand the final events. So they have played a reforming and necessary role, as have others.

Moreover, the SDA’s have correctly moved the church closer to its Semitic, Sabbatarian roots, even though they are still very confused and wrong about the Gospel Sabbath right now.

However, once the Gospel is better understood, all will see that it is a Jewish paradigm and religion, one that still meets on the 7th day. Those that embrace the historic Gospel, will only embrace the Gospel Sabbath that accompanies the original, (which at this point no church teaches). And like the 1st century, these true Christians will be seen as Jews. Thus at some point, the anti-Semites will wage war, (once again), against these Jewish/ Christians.

No one should be blind to what is taking place in the world. Jesus instructs all to be alert and ready for the Great Tribulation, which is not going to have anything to do with Sunday laws, as the SDA’s teach. Every SDA had better get their heads out of the 19th century and examine what is taking place today, in the 21st century.

To be blunt; there is going to be a surprise attack, from those that hate the Jews and Christians, on the Western World, including the US, (Babylon), which will stop exports and imports; end Capitalism, bring about Marshall Law, and change the world forever.

The US will become like a 3rd world nation, overnight. Homeland Security will make the rules and protect resources. Democracy will be subordinated to military and government decrees, and thus the America we all knew will be changed overnight. This is classic SDA eschatology, even if they had the details wrong.

Those unprepared for this massive attack will pay a great price. No doubt they have also rejected the Gospel, and so their fate is sealed by their own choices.

It is time for the Adventists, and all others as well, to wake up and understand the world around them, including the fact that their own eschatology needs major correction and updating.

It is time for all SDA’s to stop defending this or that point from the 19th or 20th century, and get serious about developing, credible, 21st century eschatology that will meet the approval of the Apostles, Reformers, and the Adventist Pioneers.

There is no time to waste.

Matt. 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Rev. 18:8 “For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

Rev. 18:9 “And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

Rev. 18:10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in done hour your judgment has come.’

Rev. 18:11 “And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more —

Rev. 18:14 “The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

Rev. 18:15 “The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

Rev. 18:16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and 1adorned with gold and precious 2stones and pearls;

Rev. 18:17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every 1passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

Rev. 18:18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’

Rev. 18:19 “And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

Is anyone paying attention?

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

cadge · 09-07-10 6:07 pm

It's true that Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews" in Jn 4:22, but God is not Jewish.

The Jews were but the vehicle to bring, not only the salvation message to the world, but the building of the kingdom; the restoration of all things. There weren't any Jews until the progeny of Jacob/Israel came about. Adam and Eve were not Jews, yet it was God's purpose for them to be fruitful and multiply to fill the earth with a people that lived after His Spirit.

Satan tried to thwart the success of that plan, but God had the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" to remedy it and eventually continue where He left off, when all is restored and "all His enemies are put under His feet" (1Cor 15).

But, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant Church, ever since the vail was torn asunder with the sacrifice of our Lord, there is no more Greek or Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free, but Christ (the anointing of the Holy Spirit) is all and in all. Col 3:11 We are all one in Christ (the anointed) Jesus (savior).

I hope this helps
Cadge

hfsturges · 09-08-10 12:16 am

Cadge,

Abraham was given the covenant with more detail than to any other single individual. The covenant was repeated to Isaac and to Jacob. When Moses came upon the burning bush, God spoke to him as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and repeated the promises of the Abrahamic covenant -- three times. When Moses returned to Egypt, he repeated all that God had said to the elders of Israel-- he repeated the Abrahamic covenant. This was done again to the Israelites after the first confrontation with Pharaoh.

At Sinai, the covenant of Exodus 19:4-6 contained promises consistent with the Abrahamic covenant. In Exodus 23 a modified Abrahamic covenant was again stated, and was ratified in Exodus 24. After Israel rebelled, and after Moses interceded with God, the Abrahamic covenant was renewed (Exodus 34:9-11).

All this background is to show the context and momentum of the covenant with Israel. God had given to them the Abrahamic covenant, which is the covenant of grace as is the New Covenant, and the Everlasting Covenant.

The sacrifice of Christ confirmed this same covenant. 1 Peter 2:9 uses almost the same words of Exodus 19:4-6 showing the same covenant continuing throughout the New Testament era.

Just for the Jews? Interesting! Romans 11 shows that the branches were broken off the tree, and the Gentiles grafted in. The trunk is still there. But the gentiles as the branches now share in the blessings and the responsibilities of the covenant -- the same covenant under which Israel has always lived.

All throughout human history, the covenant promise has been, "I will be to them a God and they shall be tg me a people." This comes to final fruition in the New earth -- Revelation 21:3.

tom_norris · 09-09-10 12:44 pm

Cadge said: It's true that Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews" in Jn 4:22, but God is not Jewish.

Tom said: While God is not Jewish, he created and invented Judaism to serve as the context and background for the Gospel, which is a Jewish doctrine. So God is the author of Old Covenant Judaism as well as the New Covenant version, AKA, the Christian Faith.

Furthermore, Jesus, who claims to be God’s son, IS JEWISH. So the line of the human race now traces itself, not from the first, Gentile Adam, but from the second, JEWISH Adam. The first Adam is a type of the “last” Adam, who is Jewish.

Rom. 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

1Cor. 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The Jews really are special, and anyone that thinks otherwise does not understand the Gospel Story correctly. Eternal Life goes to those that embrace Jewish doctrine, and accept the Jewish Messiah and his Jewish based Gospel.

So Judaism, either the OC version or the NC version is not something to be dismissed by anyone that wants to find Eternal life. Salvation, meaning the Gospel, comes from the OC Jews, and so too their NC Messiah, Jesus, the savior of the world.

So my point still stands. Both the OC and the NC are 100% Jewish. There can be no Gentile doctrine in the Church, which is why Sunday is such an obvious, Gentile, fraud. The Gospel is Jewish, and so too the church.

Cadge said: The Jews were but the vehicle to bring, not only the salvation message to the world, but the building of the kingdom; the restoration of all things.

Tom said: The history of the Jews is part of the long history of the Gospel Story. There could not be a Messiah, if there were no Nation of Israel, with its Temple, Priesthood, Prophets, and Promises. In fact, all the blessings that the church enjoys, or will enjoy in the future, are predicated on the Gospel Promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Acts 13:26 “Brethren, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent.

Acts 13:27 “For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him.

Acts 13:28 “And though they found no ground for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed.

Acts 13:29 “When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb.

Acts 13:30 “But God raised Him from the dead;

Acts 13:31 and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people.

Acts 13:32 “And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers,

Acts 13:33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.’

The Gospel represents the promises of God to the Jews. Too bad they rejected it and too bad the SDA’s have done the same, and for the same reasons.

Rom. 9:2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

Rom. 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Rom. 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

Rom. 9:5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Rom. 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”

Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Those that have Gospel Faith are true Jews, and true children of Israel in the sight of heaven.

Which is why the name of Israel, is mentioned over 2500 times in the Bible. The Church is the New Covenant Israel.

Rom. 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

Rom. 1:2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,

The Gospel is fully Jewish. Period.

Cadge said: There weren't any Jews until the progeny of Jacob/Israel came about.

Tom said: Correct. Abraham was the first Jew. He is the father of all those who accept the Gospel by faith. But being a Jew was not Abraham’s idea.

Rather, Judaism came from the mind of God himself. God made Abraham the first Jew, the prototype of all those that would follow the true God of the Gospel Promise, and creator of the world.

Cadge said: Adam and Eve were not Jews, yet it was God's purpose for them to be fruitful and multiply to fill the earth with a people that lived after His Spirit.

Tom said: Before Adam was created; there was a plan for the second Adam, a JEWISH Adam, to become the head of the human race. As Christians, we follow the SECOND Adam, not the first.

The plan to start the Jewish Nation and make it the context and background for the Gospel and the church was not an after-thought by God. Rather, it was a divine plan, made before the world was created, hidden from man by God, until the 1st century.

Col. 1:25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

Col. 1:26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

Rom. 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you baccording to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for dlong ages past,

Eph. 3:4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand amy insight into the bmystery of Christ,

Eph. 3:5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy aapostles and prophets in the Spirit;

Eph. 3:6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Eph. 3:7 of which I was made a bminister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me daccording to the working of His power.

Eph. 3:8 To me, athe very least of all 1saints, this grace was given, to bpreach to the Gentiles the unfathomable criches of Christ,

Eph. 3:9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the amystery which for ages has been bhidden in God cwho created all things;

Eph. 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the crulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Eph. 3:11 This was in aaccordance with the 1eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Cadge said: Satan tried to thwart the success of that plan, but God had the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" to remedy it and eventually continue where He left off, when all is restored and "all His enemies are put under His feet" (1Cor 15).

Tom said: God tricked Satan into thinking that the Jewish Nation was going to forever represent the Kingdom of God.

So just as the evil one thought he had won the game by crushing the Nation of Israel and removing their Temple and Priesthood, here comes another, newer and more functional version of the Kingdom of God. The church.

Thus OC Judaism morphed into the Church, a Nation without boarders and without an army, whose leader is the Jewish Messiah, a High Priest, in the Temple of God of all those that follow Abraham and enter into the Gospel Story with the intent to claim Eternal Life.

The Church instantly becomes the object of Satan’s focus, and thus the Bible Story repeats itself, except this time the Gentiles are given the opportunity to represent the Kingdom of God in the New Covenant era. The church is now the new Nation of Israel, and they botched things just as badly as the Jews did in the OT. Proving that neither Jew nor Gentile has followed the will of God.

Like the Nation of Israel at the end of the OT, the Church will also be laid waste at the end of the NC era, its’ Gospel gutted and worthless. This is where we are today. This has already taken place.

The church TODAY is in ruins, spiritually speaking. It is a theological wasteland of deception and false doctrine. This is the time of the blind, wretched, and wealthy Laodiceans. This is also the time for Gospel Reform as shown in Rev 18.

Cadge said: But, under the anointing of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant Church, ever since the vail was torn asunder with the sacrifice of our Lord, there is no more Greek or Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free, but Christ (the anointing of the Holy Spirit) is all and in all. Col 3:11 We are all one in Christ (the anointed) Jesus (savior).

Tom said: This text does not change the point under discussion. While all that embrace the Gospel, both Jew and Gentile, are theologically placed “in Christ”, Christ is 100% Jewish. This makes all “in Christ” spiritual Jews.

Paul makes this very clear in Romans 11 and thus the text used in Colossians cannot be used to claim that the church is not Jewish.

Rom. 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

Rom. 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

Rom. 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

Rom. 11:19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

Rom. 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

Rom. 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Rom. 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Rom. 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Rom. 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Cadge said: I hope this helps

Tom said: Your post was confusing, and thus I do not know if you support my point that the Christian Faith is 100% Jewish or not.

Those who disagree with this point, cannot prove their view from the Bible. Which is why they are wrong. But all are free to try. But you have not come close to doing this.

Paul is too clear about all this, so it is a hopeless task to try and support the Gentile confusion about the Gospel Story. A story that features the impossible and very wrong Sunday Sabbath.

The Gospel, and all church doctrine is Jewish. There is no such thing as Gentile doctrine. This is why Sunday is such a great fraud. It stands for a false and impossible view of the Gospel Story, even as the SDA view of the Sabbath is also very wrong.

I hope this helps.

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

cadge · 09-09-10 3:34 pm

Yes Tom, "salvation is of the Jews" and, as you say, "The Christian faith is 100% Jewish". But only because God had to institute the plan of saving us from the death decree of disobedience. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, then there would not have been any Jews. It's just the name chosen for the people that were to bring the salvation message to the world.

Ellen white says that there are unfallen people on other planets. Are they Jewish? Are they sons and daughters of Abraham and heirs to the promise? We are only spiritual Jews by faith of the promise, but all of God's beings are not Jews. The label "Jew" is only temporary in the light of eternity. It is used to form a unity until all things are fulfilled. As 1Cor 15 says, God will be all, and in all of us. This is the teaching of two becoming one in Eph 5:31,32. Just as Adam "which was the son of God" (luke 3:38), we also are given power to become "sons of God" (John 1:12).

Jesus prayed that we would be one with God as He was. "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father , and ye in me and I in you" (John 14:20). Jesus prayed also, "That they may all be one, as thou Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" (John 17:21). For now, the Spirit comes and goes where it listeth (John 3:8) as it convicts us of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16: 8-11), and we are now sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, as we walk after His teachings (Rom 8:1,2 & Eph 1:13) But it is only a foretaste of what will dwell in us permanently, without coming and going as it does now. It "is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph 1:14). That's why we are referred to as vessels. His spirit will dwell in us forever. He in us and us in Him, all in all. Not because we're Jewish.

God didn't create us to be Jewish. He created us because He is a Spirit and He wanted a body to dwell in, us. That's why we were created. We weren't created so we would fall into sin and then be recovered. It's His love and grace that offered that mercy. The restoration of all things is about being one with Him as He had originally designed, not being Jewish.

I hope this clears up your confusion.
Cadge

hfsturges · 09-09-10 7:57 pm

Tom and Cadge, From your last two posts, I really do hope you can help each other and clear up each other's confusion! (Tongue in cheek!)

Tom, you have made excellent posts the last two times. Hope I don't spoil things by throwing a wrench in the machinery. Here is a statement you made:

Tom said: The history of the Jews is part of the long history of the Gospel Story. There could not be a Messiah, if there were no Nation of Israel, with its Temple, Priesthood, Prophets, and Promises. In fact, all the blessings that the church enjoys, or will enjoy in the future, are predicated on the Gospel Promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Tom, I heartily agree with your last statement. In my study of the covenant, I have come to believe that the "Abrahamic covenant" was frequently renewed and referred to for the rest of Old Testament history. Ellen White speaks of the New Covenant as having been given to Adam and to Abraham. 1 Peter 2:9 uses very similar language to Exodus 19:6. I believe that the "new covenant" spoken of by Christ was in this same line.

You both talk of the "Jews". Just a bit of history: Eber was a descendant of Noah, and probable feared and obeyed God. His clan began to be called "Hebrews." Abraham was a Hebrew. When Jacob became Israel, the descendants of Abraham began to called the "children of Israel." And the Hebrew nation was called Israel.

The name "Israel" was given by God and has meaning; "for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed" (Genesis 32:28).

If it was not for Rehoboam and his stubbornness and greed, Israel would still be the name of the Hebrew kingdom. Since the southern kingdom was largely the tribe of Judah, it became "Yehudah" and by extension, the people were "Jews." The modern kingdom is now rightly called "Israel."

Now, is the Christian faith 100% Jewish? According to the Bible, only a small remnant of Israel were knowledgeable and compliant "Jews." Under the leadership of David, Solomon, and the few good kings of Judah there were revivals of temple services, but probably very few of the people understood their own religion. Under the bad kings, they reverted to idolatry in short order every time.

Now Tom talks about our present church needing reform. On this point I will agree with him. We do desperately need reform. From that point we widely diverge. But maybe I should stop here. I make no claim to reform the church or any of those I talk to. If I can manage to "reform" myself, and help my family, I will count it a success.

tom_norris · 09-15-10 11:53 am

Cadge said: Yes Tom, "salvation is of the Jews" and, as you say, "The Christian faith is 100% Jewish".

Tom said; Thank you for this admission. This is the point I was making. Most people do not know this fact. I was not sure you agreed. For most, such a view makes no sense and seems very wrong.

Cadge said: But only because God had to institute the plan of saving us from the death decree of disobedience. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, then there would not have been any Jews.

Tom said: I agree with this hypothetical point. However, it is a moot point, because Adam and Eve went bad. Their behavior required a plan that included one nation to represent the Creator God, and his point of view, including his laws and eschatology. Thus the Nation of Israel acted as a proxy for the God of Abraham, even as hostile and competing National deities surrounded and made war against them.

No need to waste time on hypothetical’s. The Gospel
Story is clear about the fall and that the New Covenant is fully Jewish and so too all church doctrine. No Gentile theology was ever allowed or considered credible by the apostles.

In fact, the early church was fully Jewish for some time, no Gentiles allowed, much less their theology. Although the door was later opened to the Gentiles to embrace the Gospel, they were given no doctrinal authority whatsoever to change any doctrine. The Gospel paradigm was to forever remain Jewish. This is still true today, regardless of the fact that the Gentiles have long ago hijacked the Christian Faith, contaminated the Gospel, and inserted a false Sabbath into the Gospel Story.

At the end of time, Gospel Reform will confront all Laodiceans. Those that refuse to repent and reform will be lost.

Cadge said: It's just the name chosen for the people that were to bring the salvation message to the world.

Tom said: Judaism is much more than just a name. It is based on revelation, on the rare interaction between heaven and earth. It also represents a total way of life, a specific belief system that features the God of Abraham and his many laws, rules, and regulations, as well as his providence, care, mercy, and eschatology.

Judaism is not “just a name or a religion.” It is the theological and cultural context of the Gospel. Misunderstand this history, doctrine, and background and one will misread the Bible, failing to grasp the genuine Gospel, as well as the NC Sabbath.

Cadge said: Ellen white says that there are unfallen people on other planets. Are they Jewish? Are they sons and daughters of Abraham and heirs to the promise?

Tom said: Today, science has recently discovered many planets, over 700. They think it only a matter of time before they find life another Earth. Thus, there is a big search underway for “habitable planets.”

http://kepler.nasa.gov/Mission/QuickGuide/

http://www.helium.com/items/1937833-nas … ew-planets

I have no idea what the human race would say to this new planet (of people) if they found one? Or how long it would even take to send a message? And why would these people want to have anything to do with us? We are all contaminated with sin, war, and death. Who wants our problems?

If they are watching our world, as part of their own Celestial Cable plan, then they already know we are insane and dangerous. So they would correctly want nothing to do with us. So what is the point of the search?

Heb. 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Would any of them be Jewish? Not that we know, unless the great controversy between Christ and Satan is taking place on other planets, and the story is repeating itself. Very doubtful. But we don’t know these things, nor is it any of our business.

We have our hands full on earth. We are not to waste time trying to play God, much less worry about other worlds that are none of our business.

Deut. 29:29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever

Cadge said: We are only spiritual Jews by faith of the promise, but all of God's beings are not Jews.

Tom said: The Gospel is based on the Promises made by God to Abraham. This is a very important and critical part of the story. It is a mistake to minimize it.

All Christians, saved by the Gospel, will also become spiritual Jews. This is what everyone must become if they embrace the correct Gospel Story.

Those that refuse, for any reason, will be viewed as Gentiles, excluded from the Kingdom of God. Many Christians are great anti-Semites. They will be shocked to discovery that their names are not on the list.

Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matt. 7:22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

Matt. 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

All those ON EARTH that correctly embrace the Gospel, are indeed considered spiritual Jews, part of the true Israel of God. Those that don’t, are not saved, nor are they spiritual Jews.

Rom. 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

Rom. 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”

Rom. 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Cadge said: The label "Jew" is only temporary in the light of eternity. It is used to form a unity until all things are fulfilled. As 1Cor 15 says, God will be all, and in all of us. This is the teaching of two becoming one in Eph 5:31,32.

Tom said: The story of Abraham and the Jews will be retold and celebrated throughout eternity. It is not a temporary tale that will be forgotten in the New Earth. No. No. The Gospel Story will be retold forever, even as it will become part of the public worship of God.

In fact, the NT teaches that after the Second Coming, the saved will play and sing a new “song of Moses and the Lamb,” reminding all that the Gospel Story is a Jewish paradigm that will never be forgotten. This clearly Jewish Theme song will be featured every 7th day, as the Nations come and Worship God on the Gospel Sabbath.

Rev. 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

Rev. 15:3 And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,
“Great and marvelous are Your works,
O Lord God, the Almighty;
Righteous and true are Your ways,
King of the nations!

Rev. 15:4 “Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy;
For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU,
FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED.”

Jewish Rule of the New Earth

Not only will the featured songs be Jewish every 7th day, the Jews will be in charge of the New Earth, 24/ 7, starting with Jesus, the head of the human race, and his Jewish cabinet, the apostles.

Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rev. 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The Bible is Jewish. Both the Old and the New Covenants are Jewish. The church is Jewish and so too all its founders and doctrines. Jesus, the head of the church is Jewish and so he will be for the rest of eternity.

Those that accept the Gospel must also enter into the Jewish Story and become spiritually Jewish, even to the point of claiming that Abraham, the first Jew, is their spiritual father and role model for Gospel faith.

Cadge said: Just as Adam "which was the son of God" (luke 3:38), we also are given power to become "sons of God" (John 1:12). Jesus prayed that we would be one with God as He was. "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father , and ye in me and I in you" (John 14:20).

Tom said: All that embrace the Gospel must become spiritual Jews even as they seriously follow the teachings of the Jewish Rabbi, Jesus. All the sons of God are also sons of Israel. All that are “in Christ” are viewed by heaven as spiritual and true Jews. All that are not, are lost, even if they are Jewish by nature.

Cadge said: Jesus prayed also, "That they may all be one, as thou Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" (John 17:21).

Tom said: This argument to minimize the fact that all Christina doctrine is Jewish, will not work. To be in Christ is to be fully Jewish, a spiritual child of Abraham.

All those that have embraced a wrong version of the Gospel Story are spiritual Gentiles. Those that embrace Sunday, or think it a sin to work on the 1st or 7th day Sabbaths, are very confused and wrong about the Gospel Story. They are more likely spiritual Gentiles or Pharisees, very wrong about all Christian doctrine and very unsaved as well.

Such are not spiritual Jews. Spiritual Gentiles, and those legalists that act like OC Jews, are not allowed to be “in Christ.” Such Christians have the wrong Gospel and wrong Christ. They are blind and condemned in the Pre Advent Judgment of the Church, which is the LM.

Cadge said: For now, the Spirit comes and goes where it listeth (John 3:8) as it convicts us of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16: 8-11), and we are now sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, as we walk after His teachings (Rom 8:1,2 & Eph 1:13) But it is only a foretaste of what will dwell in us permanently, without coming and going as it does now.

Tom said: The Spirit does not come in its own name, nor for its’ own sake. Nor are we “children of the Spirit.” No. The Spirit is sent from God, and comes to us in the NAME of Jesus, a Jew. Thus there is no Gentile spirit, but one that clearly has a Semitic Brand, testifying to us that we are the children of the Jewish God.

Rom. 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Moreover, the role of the Spirit is to convict of sin, (as defined by Jewish law and theology), and to help us understand how to understand the Gospel teachings of Jesus, which are fully Jewish.

John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

The Gospel is a fully Jewish paradigm. This is the point that few understand. Those that embrace it by faith are considered spiritual Jews; those that don’t are not saved at all. They are viewed as Gentiles, standing outside the Kingdom of the Jewish God.

Cadge said: It "is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph 1:14). That's why we are referred to as vessels. His spirit will dwell in us forever. He in us and us in Him, all in all. Not because we're Jewish.

Tom said: The Gospel Story is Jewish. Both the OC and the NC.

The Spirit comes in the name of a Jew and reminds all about the teaching of the great Rabbi Jesus, the savior of the world.

Abraham is the Father of all those that embrace the Gospel Story by faith. Thus all Christians are spiritual Jews, saved by the Jew Jesus. It’s a Jewish Story with an eternally happy, and Jewish, ending. The Jews rule the New Earth forever.

The Jews win. The Gentiles lose. Be careful which you allow yourself to become! Only one is admitted into the Kingdom of the (Jewish) God. I will gladly become a spiritual Jew in order to obtain Eternal Life as promised in the Gospel. Will you?

Cadge said: WRONG. God didn't create us to be Jewish.

Tom said: God knew that Earth would quickly turn to the dark side. Thus he planned the Gospel Story, which includes the Jews playing a starring, permanent, and eternal role, long before the earth was created.

So God did create all Jews, Gentiles, and Christians to become part of the true Israel of God. His Gospel is “from the Jews,” and is only for those that will enter into this Jewish Story, by faith, and embrace Abraham, (and his God), as the model for saving Gospel Faith.

The Gospel is Jewish, and so it will forever be. All that are saved were meant to become spiritual Jews by God, and children of God and of Israel. This was part of the plan. The Gospel is from the Jews, and is, - in fact, a Jewish doctrine. All that are saved by this Semitic Gospel, (there is no other Gospel), are considered genuine Jews by heaven.

John 4:22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

All that are saved by the Gospel, are enrolled in the Kingdom of the Jewish Christ. There is no Gentile Kingdom of God.

There are Gentiles inside the Semitic Kingdom of Jesus, but they must think and act like a Jew, even claiming Abraham as their spiritual father, and Jesus as their Teacher, for they have embraced NEW COVENANT Judaism, which is the Christian Faith.

Those that enter into the Gospel Story, believing the Gospel promises of God, by Faith, are the true children of Abraham, true Jews.

Col. 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

Col. 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Col. 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Rom. 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Gal. 3:7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

So God did indeed create all those that were going to be saved, to be Jewish, just like Jesus, the savior of the world and the head of the church. In fact, at some point, all will become more like him, which means we too, will become MORE Jewish, not less.

Matt. 10:25 “It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master

1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Jesus represents a major paradigm change from OC Judaism to the New Covenant version, which is the Christian Faith. He introduces the NC, with its’ the New Man.

How is this new paradigm to be defined in regards to Judaism and the Gentiles?

Eph. 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands —

Eph. 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Eph. 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

Eph. 2:15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Eph. 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Jesus abolished OC Judaism and created the NC Church in it’s place. THIS is the New Man. He is a Christian, regardless if he was a Jew or Gentile. THIS is new man; he is a spiritual Jew. Not a spiritual Gentile. He is like Paul, who is the real model man in the NT.

Phil. 3:17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

Both OC Jews and Gentiles were now accepted into this new, Semitic based, Kingdom of God on an equal basis, through faith in the Jewish Messiah. Thus, the “dividing wall” of the OC law, was removed by Christ as a means of entering the progressive, New Covenant, Kingdom of God. Salvation is now based on something else; faith in the Gospel and salvation through the church for both Jew and Gentile.

All in the church are considered spiritual Jews, regardless if they are natural Jews or Gentiles. The Church, and the NC, are 100% Jewish. All church members must become as “spiritual Jews” making their pilgrimage to the New Jerusalem, which will be managed forever by real Jews, both natural and spiritual.

Heb. 11:12 Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.

Heb. 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Heb. 11:14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.

Heb. 11:15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.

Heb. 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

The Gospel Story is Jewish, and so to every doctrine in the church, which is also a Semitic doctrine and concept. This is the point that many do not come close to understanding correctly. All have been taught much Gentile myth about the Gospel Story, and Sunday is the greatest of these obvious tall tales.

Cadge said: He created us because He is a Spirit and He wanted a body to dwell in, us. That's why we were created.

Tom said: We were created to do good works and represent the Gospel.

Eph. 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

There are no spirits waiting to inhabit new bodies as the Mormons and other cults teach, (like the Scientologists). This is absurd and creepy theology.

Cadge said: We weren't created so we would fall into sin and then be recovered.

Tom said: Wrong. This was EXACTLY the divine plan!

The human race was created to showcase the Gospel to the universe. Before God made the earth, he knew that the humans would fall and fail.

So God DID create the human race, knowing they would fall into sin, and that that he would have to rescue them through the Gospel.

Thus, Jesus becoming the 2nd Adam was not an afterthought or plan “B”. No. Plan “A” was for Son of God to became a Jewish man, to die on the cross for the sins of the world. THIS was the plan all along, before the world was made.

Why? To show the universe what God was really like. And to destroy the devil and sin, through the Gospel. (Which means it is not about us. There are much larger issues than many have not understood.

1John 3:8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Planet Earth was created for the singular purpose of showcasing the Gospel to the universe, AND to destroy sin, and its inventor, Satan. Lucky us? I would rather be watching all this mess from another planet.

The history of earth is a great experiment in Celestial politics and theology. Earth is the final battlefield upon which the great controversy between Good and Evil, Satan and God, are played out for all to see. We are caught up in this war to the death, and we are but pawns in a celestial game of chess.

1Cor. 4:9 For, I think, God has exhibited us apostles last of all, as men condemned to death; because we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.

Eph. 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Cadge said: It's His love and grace that offered that mercy. The restoration of all things is about being one with Him as He had originally designed, not being Jewish.

Tom said: The Gospel is what saves us all, ushering us into the protection and care of Christ, and into the (Jewish) Kingdom of God. Even the Lamb’s Book of Life is a Jewish document. And all the names written in this book are considered spiritual Jews, even as the Gospel Story is a fully Semitic paradigm. And so it will be forever and ever…

Those that deny this theological fact, will have their names removed.

Cadge said: I hope this clears up your confusion. 

Tom said: I am not confused in the least about the Gospel or the Two Covenants, or what the NT teaches. But I am still not sure you fully understand and embrace the point being made.

At first you said you understood and agreed, but then you spent the rest of the post trying to minimize the fact that the Gospel and the Christian Faith are Jewish, not Gentile.

So I think you are still confused and uncertain about all this. And I am confused about what you are trying to say, or what you really believe.

However, I understand that we are all on different levels and that truth is progressive. So keep studying these points. Eternal Life is worth the effort, and thus all should try to better understand the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, upon which everything depends.

At the end of time, the NT shows the Gospel being preached correctly, with clarity, truth, and power. At that time it will become evident that what has been passed off for the Gospel, and for the Sabbath, is worthless, wretched, garbage.

All will then understand why they need to repent. Laodicea has a false and wrong view of the Gospel, as well as the law, Sabbath, and most everything else.

Thus the cry for the Laodicean Church to repent and believe the true Gospel is upcoming on the eschatological agenda. This final Gospel Message will stun a blind and corrupt church that was fast asleep, intent on ignoring the approaching Judgment.

As a result of this final Gospel Message, a division in the church will take place, with those that repent of their false doctrines, separating from those that do not. Thus all will be forced to choose between tradition and Gospel Truth and the church, meaning all denominations and cults, will be greatly stirred.

Hub said: Tom, I heartily agree with your last statement. In my study of the covenant, I have come to believe that the "Abrahamic covenant" was frequently renewed and referred to for the rest of Old Testament history.

Tom said: The Gospel existed in “promise form” in the OT. That is why it can be seen in the various symbols and sacrifices. The promise to Abraham was the Gospel, but it would take a long time to unfold, and few understood it properly by the first century.

Hub said: Ellen White speaks of the New Covenant as having been given to Adam and to Abraham. 1 Peter 2:9 uses very similar language to Exodus 19:6. I believe that the "new covenant" spoken of by Christ was in this same line.

Tom said: Jesus represents the Gospel promise to Abraham. He starts the NC, and reforms Judaism through the church, which is now the new Israel of God. Abraham understood the Gospel, but this knowledge was lost over the years. Which is why the Jews did not recognize their Messiah.

John 8:39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.

John 8:40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

John 8:56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Hub said: Now, is the Christian faith 100% Jewish? According to the Bible, only a small remnant of Israel were knowledgeable and compliant "Jews."

Tom said: As far as theology goes, the Christian Faith is 100% Jewish. This is a fact, not an opinion. Every doctrine in the church is grounded and based in Judaism, whether it is the Creation Story or the Eucharist, which comes from the Passover.

The Second Coming is also fully Jewish and so too Baptism, and even the church service, with its songs, prayers, and preaching comes from the Jews.

The Sabbath is also Jewish. This is why only the 7th day can be the Sabbath for the church. There is no such doctrine as a 1st day of the week Sabbath for the Jewish, apostolic church. All doctrine in the church is Jewish. If you find any that are not, like a Sunday Sabbath, you have found a fraud.

While it is true that today there are all manner of Gentile doctrines in the church, like Sunday, or even OC outlawed doctrines like tithe; this is wrong. Such Gentile or OC views, while sincerely embraced by many, are nonetheless wrong, indicative that there is great Gospel error taking place.

Hub said: Now Tom talks about our present church needing reform. On this point I will agree with him. We do desperately need reform.

Tom said: Adventist Reform represents a comprehensive and correct plan to move Adventism forward to the 4th and final Message referenced in Rev 18. To reach this place in eschatology has long been the goal of Adventism.

This reform plan not only corrects the many myths and errors of Traditional Adventism, it also contains the genuine Gospel of the apostolic church, as well as the correct, 7th day, active, Sabbath for the Remnant church.

In short, there is another historic paradigm shift taking place within the history of the Three Angels Messages. This time the church is moving forward from the failed and self-destructing 3rd Angels Message, to the 4th Angels Message.

This last Message is the period of the Loud Cry, a time of repentance and Gospel Reform for every church and denomination in the land, starting with the SDA’s.

Like the 1st Angels Message of the Millerite days, this last Message will also be ecumenical in nature, calling all to repent and embrace Gospel Reform and prepare for the Judgment and the end of the world.

Rev. 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rev. 18:2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev. 18:4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

2Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

2Pet. 3:11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

2Pet. 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!

2Pet. 3:13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

2Pet. 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

Mark 4:23 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Tom Norris for Adventist Reform

Adventists for Tomorrow

Announcement

#26 08-04-10 12:07 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#27 08-04-10 9:20 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#28 08-05-10 11:39 am

Re: Adventist Reform

#29 08-05-10 1:17 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#30 08-05-10 6:07 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#31 08-06-10 12:52 am

Re: Adventist Reform

#32 08-07-10 2:45 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#33 08-07-10 9:27 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#34 08-07-10 9:51 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#35 08-08-10 2:11 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#36 08-08-10 6:46 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#37 08-08-10 8:47 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#38 08-09-10 9:04 am

Re: Adventist Reform

#39 08-10-10 10:42 am

Re: Adventist Reform

#40 08-14-10 3:27 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#41 09-04-10 2:21 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#42 09-04-10 2:33 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#43 09-04-10 3:40 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#44 09-07-10 1:46 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#45 09-07-10 6:07 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#46 09-08-10 12:16 am

Re: Adventist Reform

#47 09-09-10 12:44 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#48 09-09-10 3:34 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#49 09-09-10 7:57 pm

Re: Adventist Reform

#50 09-15-10 11:53 am

Re: Adventist Reform

Board footer