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pilgrim99 · 02-03-09 8:38 pm

Unlike the deceiver, God does not hide the consequences of our choices from us.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:Rejecting Wisdom Means Painful Consequences The second theme is that the choice to reject wisdom’s call has painful consequences: “I will even laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your dread comes, When your dread comes like a storm, And your calamity comes on like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come on you” (1:26-27). One may be troubled by the fact that wisdom seems cruel here, but wisdom warns men that calamity and disaster are the consequence of rejecting her. Evil men suffer only what they deserve. God’s justice requires that men not only receive what they have earned (e.g. “the wages of sin is death,” Rom. 6:23), but what they earnestly desired. “So they shall eat of the fruit of their own way, And be satiated with their own devices. For the waywardness of the naive shall kill them, And the complacency of fools shall destroy them” (1:31-32).<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> From <a href="http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=611" target=_top>The Two Ways (Proverbs 1:7-33)</a> The Bible records the good, the bad and the ugly. It faithfully records the destiny of people who are for God, and the destiny of people who are against God. Those against God ALWAYS come out on the short end when judgment is rendered. Their destiny is not to be desired, but their wages are what they have honestly earned, in contrast to a freely offered gift. There are numerous instances throught the Scriptures. We all have a choice to make, are we for God, or against Him? There is no middle ground, so my recommendation is to listen to Wisdom and choose wisely, not from fear, but in response to an unconditional Love that is freely offered to us poor undeserving sinners. The battle is already won, God wins!

don · 02-03-09 8:48 pm

You will ask for my help, but I won't listen; For me, one of the most intriguing stories of scripture is found in <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Judges%2010&version=31" target="_blank">Judges 10</a>. Here it is; I have highlighted the key points:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote: 6 Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the LORD. They served the Baals and the Ashtoreths, and the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the Ammonites and the gods of the Philistines. And because the Israelites forsook the LORD and no longer served him, 7 he became angry with them. He sold them into the hands of the Philistines and the Ammonites, 8 who that year shattered and crushed them. For eighteen years they oppressed all the Israelites on the east side of the Jordan in Gilead, the land of the Amorites. 9 The Ammonites also crossed the Jordan to fight against Judah, Benjamin and the house of Ephraim; and Israel was in great distress. 10 Then the Israelites cried out to the LORD, "We have sinned against you, forsaking our God and serving the Baals." 11 The LORD replied, "When the Egyptians, the Amorites, the Ammonites, the Philistines, 12 the Sidonians, the Amalekites and the Maonites [c] oppressed you and you cried to me for help, did I not save you from their hands? 13 But you have forsaken me and served other gods, so I will no longer save you. 14 Go and cry out to the gods you have chosen. Let them save you when you are in trouble!" 15 But the Israelites said to the LORD, "We have sinned. Do with us whatever you think best, but please rescue us now." (No record of God's Reply.) 16 Then they got rid of the foreign gods among them and served the LORD. And he could bear Israel's misery no longer. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>Notes: I enjoy this story because God speaks tough, but he is really quite caring. He, in essence, says, "I am not listening." The people turn to God anyway. He then is portrayed as not being able to take His people's misery any longer. I suggest that it is hard for God to not listen. .

maggie · 02-03-09 9:39 pm

I suggest, gentle Don, that it is hard for you to not listen, and thus your God is gentle too. OTOH, Sorensen's God is going to laugh at our calamity, and Sorensen along with Him, I presume.<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:By Sorensen, <a href="http://www.atomorrow.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=1780&post=76987#POST76987" target="_blank">Posted</a> on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 1:00 pm: God's wrath is often coupled with contempt and scorn. This is because people have mocked God and showed contempt and scorn for His messengers. "The Lord will have them in derision." And He will "laugh at (our) calamity." "Be not deceived, God is not mocked." Sorensen<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>But Sorensen can speak for himself, if he hasn't fallen off the edge of the Internet. As I've often said, I think the Bible is like a Rorschach Ink Blot test. <img src="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/messages/18/399.jpg" alt="Ink Blot"> Interestingly enough, even the Rorschach Ink Blot test itself is like a, well, Rorshach Ink Blot test, there having sprung up several 'denominations' of interpreters: <a href="http://deltabravo.net/custody/rorschach.php" target="_blank">http://deltabravo.net/custody/rorschach.php</a> It's all a hall of mirrors, I tell ya....

pilgrim99 · 02-03-09 11:33 pm

Maggie, The passage that Don quoted is an example of repentance. The passage in Proverbs 1 reflects the destiny of the unrepentant. I agree with you that Don is trying to soften God's image, unnecessarily,IMHO. Please look at the study that I linked to and then let me know if the Proverbs passage still seems like a Rorschach test. I worship with a fellowship who's motto includes this statement, "simply teach the Word simply." When we study the entire Bible, Chapter by Chapter and Verse by Verse, it all fits together into a cohesive whole. God is a God of perfect Love and Justice. He will not force anyone to love Him, and He has not hidden the destiny of those who choose the deceiver. Peace, Devon PS. I looked at your tribute video. Your son was a special person, I pray that I have a chance to meet him in heaven.

john8verse32 · 02-04-09 12:34 am

God is a God of perfect Love and Justice gen 6: The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. 6 He was very sorry that he had made them, 7 and he said, "I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them......I'm going to destroy the whole earth and all its people.......... 17 I'm going to send a flood that will destroy everything that breathes! Nothing will be left alive. so God, in His justice and perfect love, kills all the innocent animals and destroys the earth just to punish the bad people Ex 11: 4 Moses went to the king and said: I have come to let you know what the LORD is going to do. About midnight he will go through the land of Egypt, 5 and wherever he goes, the first-born son in every family will die. Your own son will die, and so will the son of the lowest slave woman. Even the first-born males of cattle will die. 6 Everywhere in Egypt there will be loud crying. ..... Then you Egyptians will know that the LORD is good to the Israelites, even while he punishes you. ..... Moses was very angry; he turned and left the king. 9 What the LORD had earlier said to Moses came true. He had said, "The king of Egypt won't listen. Then I will perform even more miracles." 10 So the king of Egypt saw Moses and Aaron work miracles, but the LORD made him stubbornly refuse to let the Israelites leave his country. and why did the loving, just Lord make the Pharoah stubbornly refuse to let thepeople go? so He could... pass through Egypt and kill the first-born son in every family and the first-born male of all animals. I am the LORD, and I will punish the gods of Egypt so, our loving Hebrew God, kills innocen t kids just to punish his rival gods? 29 At midnight the LORD killed the first-born son of every Egyptian family, from the son of the king to the son of every prisoner in jail. He also killed the first-born male of every animal that belonged to the Egyptians.} so our heavenly father massacred innocent kids and animals. In every Egyptian home, someone was dead. no wonder they hate Jews and Christians over there. of course, if the Hebrews exaggerated the story, maybe God was not quite as tyranical as they depict Him in their family biography. (Message edited by john8verse32 on February 03, 2009)

maggie · 02-04-09 12:45 am

Thank you, Devon, for looking at Beau's tribute, and for your kind words. He was my nephew's son, and he was special. My son was too. I'd like to get his tribute put on the Net sometime, also. I'm sure you will meet them both in heaven. I did look at your link, and I do still think the Bible is like a Rorschach test...but...I'm kinda old. <IMG SRC="http://www.atomorrow.net/discus/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":-)" BORDER=0> Over the years, I've grown to hear the rushing of a rio abajo rio, a river beneath the river of Scripture...and here is what I hear.... The Great Antitypical Day of Atonement is the time when we identify with Christ so completely that we, in our very bodies, fill up the suffering of Christ for the world, and so, as He wills that none should perish, His will is done on earth as it is in heaven. In us. This can't be found chapter-by-chapter, verse-by-verse, but it has distilled over time in me, if you wish to believe me. Peace,

pilgrim99 · 02-04-09 1:10 am

John, Have you ever experienced or observed a 'passing the point of no return?' God will give nations, tribes and people over to what they really want. Some are confirmed in His righteousness, some are confirmed in the hardness of their own hearts. When judgment is rendered, the opportunity for change is forever lost.

maggie · 02-04-09 1:13 am

Wasn't the world long past the point of no return when Christ came?

cadge · 02-04-09 9:46 am

"Even reading on this forum there is a not at all a belief in EGW's ministry" ----------------- Reply posted by Don Sands on 2/2/09: "I think we underestimate the influence that EGW still has within all the segments, or factions, of Adventism. Her counsels are cited by almost all in defense of their viewpoints. This forum represents a larger cross-section then "main stream" Adventism. Most of the posters here are not adherents to church. Hubert said: "...people who had experienced a palpable relationship with Christ. This, and this alone motivated people to eventually develop the Seventh-day Adventist church..." I agree. Also, Jesus seemed to be against numbers for numbers sake. After feeding the 5000, he passed up the opportunity to fulfill the Hebrew prophecies of temporal prosperity. He said strange things that discouraged the masses such as, "You have to eat my flesh". He told people to think twice before joining up; i.e. "count the cost." The church needs a revival of true godliness. It will be the dedication of the pioneers which will revive the fortunes of the church. As I study earlier Adventism, I am intrigued with their singlemindedness, their love for the LORD, and their total dedication to the cause. Everyone who cares about the things of God should find their center for living in Christ. I have no idea how to inspire a new generation. My task is not that of a charismatic leader. I know how to help my students with their questions and how to ground them in reasonable thinking and soundness of faith. Inspiring them will have to come from some other quarter, I suppose. I have seen charismatic speakers with dubious theology inspire large numbers of young people. As young people come down off the high thus generated, my task seems to be to help ground them for daily living." ------------- Reply by Cadge: Don, EGW gleaned an abundance of solid spiritual food because she gleaned it from many solid Spirit filled Christians. She did how ever try to portray the things that she penned as if they were from direct revelation to her and not from other authors. Many are confused and lift her up as the prophet with the Elijah message and the voice commisioned by heaven to the building of the remnant church, even going so far as to hold her writings as an authoritive and continuing source of truth to those who follow her to the point of infallibility. I didn't say all, I said many, and not so many though as were in the beginnings of her ministry. The trouble Don, as Tom Norris and Des Ford have pointed out, and I believe that you see this also, is that EGW was confused as to the line between legalism and the true Gospel of faith/works. I believe two of the greatest errors that this body of believers put forth, and still do today besides a confusing Gospel, is the teaching that one can reach perfection here and stand without an intercessor and an investigative judgement starting in 1844. This robs one of their blessed assurance in the covering grace of God that we have as we progress through the sanctification process; the process where we have a continuing heart to obey and continually move towards the mark, but not without our ups and downs. The revelation that "A rightous man stumbles seven times and rises again, but a wicked man falleth into mischief" shows the advancement of the saint in Christ. "Seven times" meaning that he/she is still covered in Christ's rightousness as we continue the battle, but we will stumble and react to circumstances in the flesh at times as we learn. It's like three steps forward and one step back and on and on towards the mark. The realization of this will keep us from beiing too judgemental towards others as we ralise that no one is perfect here and will not be yet even when that Perfect one appears. The wicked one has made up his/her mind to disregard the beckonings and mercy of God and walks by human wisdom and the lusts of this world. I mentioned before, in another post, that if EGW was the one chosen by God to build the Remnant Church, then she missed the boat. The Remnant Church has to mirror the one that Jesus started. When you lift the blueprint from the Bible and hold it up, it must fit the form and principles of Jesus teaching in word and action. So, as we go back to the beginning we must begin this remnant by the same pattern, and what is that? Well first and foremost, we must have the correct understanding of the Gospel. God is not the author of confusion; Ellen White was. Pay close attention. I brought this forth before, but for some reason, some people just don't get it. Myself and myriads of hopeful believers adhered to a doctrine that claimed that we could reach a state of perfection here and stand in the judgement during a certain period without an intercessor. Why would we think that we need to reach such a state? Well, because of statements such as this: "The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. {SC 62.1} And this: "When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69.1} There are many other similiar ones that I can supply if you wish. On trying to reach this state we experienced not a little inner anguish now and again as we stumbled at one time or another to reach and maintain the counsels that EGW gave that pertained to just about every incident and situation between our relationship with our fellow man, our families and even our bodily habits and functions. The even greater assumption is that we can obtain a perfection in fulfillment to the spirit and letter of the law as to the ten commandments here also. This is not of the true revelation given by the word of God. The letter of the law demands perfection under the pain of death. Jesus fulfilled and passed that test for us. Paul says that anyone that teaches anything otherwise is to be accursed and that those who do render Christ's sacrifice "in vain" and that "grace is not grace". The metaphore of the tree of life is evidence in itself that there is still progression in spiritual development even as we enter eternity. The "leaves are for the healing of the nations". What the Lord seeks to bring us to here, and what we all will have in us at different stages is a heart that seeks after Him for correction and obediance that we may with peace and joy trust in His directives no matter what station of occupation He decides to place us in, for we will have complete trust in His love and care for us. But we can't learn it all in a short liftime here. He knows our hearts, and those that will be part of His body. Ellen White made a statement just a few months before her death. This statement stands in such stark contrast to the statements made above, that I can only construe it to mean that she was making her best attempt to correct the error that she preached for so many years regarding perfection. It was thus: "I DO NOT SAY THAT I AM PERFECT, BUT I AM TRYING TO BE PERFECT. I DO NOT EXPECT OTHERS TO BE PERFECT; AND IF I COULD NOT ASSOCIATE WITH MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO ARE NOT PERFECT, I DO NOT KNOW WHAT I SHOULD DO. {PUR, April 29, 1915 par. 7} "I TRY TO TREAT THE MATTER THE BEST THAT I CAN, AND AM THANKFUL THAT I HAVE A SPIRIT OF UPLIFTING AND NOT A SPIRIT OF CRUSHING DOWN. YES, I AM GOING TO MAKE THAT APPEAR JUST AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. NO ONE IS PERFECT. IF ONE WERE PERFECT, HE WOULD BE PREPARED FOR HEAVEN. AS LONG AS WE ARE NOT PERFECT, WE HAVE A WORK TO DO TO GET READY TO BE PERFECT. WE HAVE A MIGHTY SAVIOUR." {PUR, April 29, 1915 par. 8} Her having said this brings some sort of satisfaction to me as it falls in line with my understanding of human nature as revealed in the Bible. "There is none rightous, no not one". "Our rightousness is as filthy rags". "Only God is good". This is not to say that we do not have a "mark" to endeavor towards as pertains to Christ's character, but we can not become Christ. We will not become perfect at any time this side of heaven; "no not one". Now, concerning "the Remnant" and "His body". The next most important we have to realize as pertains to "the remnant" is that Jesus prayed that God's will would be done "on earth as it is in heaven". How is it done in heaven? All the beings in heaven live in unity of purpose for each other in respect to each of their duties resulting in a benifit for each other. As I perform my designated job, and you perform yours, we all reap the benefits of a perpetual system that is of a body of hearts and minds that live in unison to give. This is the opposite spirit of the world that we live in is that whose wisdom says "I'll get all I can and perhaps I can share a little with those who I deem worthy, but whatever my labors produce is mine". The concept that heaven's inhabitants live by and the one Jesus prayed for on earth is the one that entails people living so as to 'esteem others better than oneself'. It is the reality of "looking on the things of others and not on your own things". This is the life that Jesus started when He called the deciples away from their nets and whatever other "selfish" occupations that their livelyhoods depended on. When Jesus said to the young man to sell all he had and follow Him, this is what He was bring him into. He said "The foxes have holes and the birds have nests, but the Son of man has nowhere to lay His head. In other words, He laid claim to owning nothing and called us into that same kingdom. This continued on with His deciples when he asked "Have you been with me so long, and have you lacked anything" they admitted that their needs were being met. Our needs will be met by our Father's care/providence as we live for each other. When the lame man asked Peter and John for some alms they answered "silver and gold have we none" but gave him healing instead, which was better. When the day of pentecost came and the thousands came, they continued into the life of community that Jesus had already started and sold their lands and possessions so as none lacked anything of need. Had EGW and company realised this spiritual truth when their expectations failed and if they had then grouped together in community those who had sold all their lands and possessions in thinking that they no longer had need of them because of their belief in the Lord's immediate return, then the Remnant Church would have grown from this mustard seed and grown throughout the ends of the earth, and brought upon the world the closing scenes of the time of trouble such as there ever was nor ever again shall be. The three angels message would have been proclaimed for a time and then the call to "come out of her my people" to the other denominations. This was /is the Gospel of the kingdom. To live apart of this concept robs us of reaching the standard of love that would come about in each of us so that we would foment a desire in ourselves to reach even those most destitute of unholiness in this world because we realize that we all are sinners and that if the circumstances were so, that we may well have ended up in the hold of the same ungodly power that binds them. Our love and pity, rather a spirit of condemnation towards them, would drive us to expend all means, wisdom and energies to help them see the light and love of God to gain their salvation. In the system that most of the world lives in we end up sacrificing the principles that our Saviour sought to teach us because we are so focused on being engaged in our occupations for the survival and well being for us and ours which, as a result, contributes to the detriment and degradation of others lives. We can't live in competition with others and esteem them better than ourselves. Do you think that that is the way it is in the heavenly kingdom? Were we not to live by the concept that heaven does and what Jesus began? If we did, then so many of the inhabitants of the world would not be living in such dire circumstances as they do that results in hatred, envy, war, poverty, disease and all the other woes known to man. The way of the world causes us to compromise our integrity. We make concessions and excuses because of the incessant demands of the situations that we must meet to survive; constantly "robbing Peter to pay Paul', overlooking many evil influences that come upon us and our families, causing us to say things like, "these things just can't be helped" or, where are we supposed to live to be free of these pressures, under a rock or out in the wilderness?. All these burdens that transpire because of our lives in the "rat race" will disolve when we follow "the way" that our Saviour taught and lived while here. The obvious hypocracy that the system of the world creates in the lives of those who proclaim to be Christians would be overcome as the followers of Jesus would be of one heart and one mind in "the way". Do you not think that is/was God's desire to have a people that lived for each others welfare and were in harmony with Him as a body connected to the Head 24/7 and on into the same pattern of the cycle of love and life above? I assure you, He still does, and He has tried to start it many times over the centuries, but Satan has always broken it up with a spirit of selfserving. He has started another community. It has gone through birth pains and trials for some time now. Though imperfect, it has begun on the proper foundation of seeking to do our Father's will. It is the common life; living as a body of brothers and sisters, laboring for each others welfare. Satan has taken some of their many mistakes and labored to make "mountains out of molehills" in order to destroy this people because he knows that their success signals the end of his existance should it survive and prosper in becoming the kingdom "on earth as it is in heaven" that our Father designed. The enemy has endevored to destroy them, but the Lord has held them together and they are now spreading around the globe living in their promised "mansions" as our Father's body bringing His Gospel of the Kingdom to all who will hear. I do not believe that you can have the remnant Church without this life that Jesus started here, for it represents the life that is currently and has always been in the heavenly realm. I know that this is some some radical stuff, being that it is so far removed from the common concept of what the church is today, but this is the true Adventist Church, IMO. Cadge

don · 02-04-09 11:47 am

Cadge, thanks for this last post. You have put so much into it that I will have to come back and examine the ideas there several times. At this point, I have merely skimmed over it and find that I agree with most of what you say. The group you describe in your last paragraph, are they identifiable? .

lijhakim · 02-04-09 1:08 pm

Devon, I like your writing. I present the following quote:<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!>quote:"Have you ever experienced or observed a 'passing the point of no return?' God will give nations, tribes and people over to what they really want. Some are confirmed in His righteousness, some are confirmed in the hardness of their own hearts. When judgment is rendered, the opportunity for change is forever lost."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>What you are talking about here is the "close of probation." (Rev 22:11). Would you care to comment on that? ------------------------ Hubert F. Sturges .

lijhakim · 02-04-09 1:21 pm

Cadge,

You make some very cogent comments:

" I do not believe that you can have the remnant Church without this life that Jesus started here, for it represents the life that is currently and has always been in the heavenly realm. I know that this is some some radical stuff, being that it is so far removed from the common concept of what the church is today, but this is the true Adventist Church, IMO."

I am going to say something that will get me into a lot of trouble. But I am used to that. I believe that God is preparing a special group as you describe above. These people are scattered throughout the church, and they represent a small minority of the church membership. But they are getting ready.

When the harvest comes, the tares will be separated from the wheat. What is left will be the 144,000. Please note that Rev 7:9 speaks of a multitude that cannot be numbered. Many more will be "Saved" that are not part of the 144,000.

Further, I believe that God is waiting as much for the preparation of the 144,000 as He is for the spreading of the Gospel to all nations. What will happen to those not of the 144,000? Better not say. I would get into REAL trouble then!

I do have one further comment. About perfection: Read 1 John 1:6-10 and carefully follow the twists and turns in the logic presented. It will be an eye opener!
----------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges

elaine · 02-04-09 2:19 pm

"...people who had experienced a palpable relationship with Christ. This, and this alone motivated people to eventually develop the Seventh-day Adventist church..."

That same experience was what initiated the church at Pentecost; that has kept the church alive throughtout the centuries; that invigorated Martin Luther; that gave Wesley his foundation that eventually became Methodism.

What is different about Adventism? A relationship with Christ was something that Christians have always had--in fact, didn't also Abraham, Moses, etc., also have that same closeness to God?

How is Adventism any different? It isn't about a relationship, it is about the Adventist "discovery" of the 2300 days and the IJ, the Sabbath, and such doctrines that had nothing to do with a relationship with Christ but were sufficiently different that establishing a new church seemed imperative as they felt no community with other Christian believers. This is the story of the origin of Seventh-day Adventists.

bob_2 · 02-04-09 10:45 pm

Hubb doesn't 1 John 1:6-10 tell us to be selfless, to never claim the gift that is actually promised by God and His Son's gift on the cross, sinlessness??? A forgiving or covering of sin???

lijhakim · 02-05-09 1:32 am

Bob, you have it in a nutshell. Here is how I see it step by step:

1 John 1:6-10 verses in blue:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
If you still live in unbelief and sin, you tell a lie to say you are a Christian.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If you live in the light of the Gospel, as Jesus did in His life, we have fellowship with Him and with other Christians. The blood of Jesus Christ, applied to the life, cleanses from all sin. “All” sin? What does that “all” mean? First of all it means that there is no sin that Jesus’ blood will not cover. I believe there is also a “finished” work of grace as the goal of every Christian.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Yet to claim to have no sin is a deception. How can a person claim to be cleansed from all sin – still have sin? The issue here, as I see it, is that the Christian must never claim perfection. His perfection must always be the perfection of faith and trust. We must trust Jesus to take care of the sin.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The classic verse! Repentance is a conscious step-wise process. Conviction, confession, forgiveness, and repentance. This must be done in cooperation with the Holy Spirit and by the grace of God. God never by passes our free choice. He moves only as we consent to His grace.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Yet if we claim to have not sinned, we make Him a liar. The conscious step-wise process is not done all at once. Is there ever an end point – a finished work of grace? This is something that the Christian must NEVER claim. He must trust in Christ, and trust that He will do the work of grace that needs to be done.

I am sure that it could be said much better, but these verses carry a powerful message.
----------------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges

don · 02-05-09 12:47 pm

Cadge wrote:

Don, EGW gleaned an abundance of solid spiritual food because she gleaned it from many solid Spirit filled Christians.

Yes. As I examine her writings, I have come to believe that her Christian views developed as she made use of these powerful Christian authors and examined their use of Scripture. This is not the full explanation of her views, but an important part of the whole. EGW also had a deeply profound experience of faith as a teenager. I believe those early experiences helped shape her expression throughout her sixty years of ministry to the church. She fretted over her own salvation and then found peace. She cared deeply for her friends, prayed for them and with them, seeking thier conversion.

pilgrim99 · 02-09-09 9:55 pm

Hubb,

Thanks once again for your kind words. Sorry for the delay in responding.

I was not thinking specifically of the passage in Revelation 22. I was thinking more in terms of 'woe' being declared to individuals, tribes and nations. We each run out of time to change upon breathing our last breath.

Peace

Devon

lijhakim · 02-10-09 12:51 pm

Devon,

I was just thinking today before I got up: Can a person live for business and pleasure all his life, then come to the Lord after he retires?

I think this is very difficult. Of course God is merciful and will accept all who come to Him in faith. The problems arise when we realize that the older we get the more we become what we are already. (Does that make sense?)

We know this is true from the structure of the brain. The cells in the brain that are "unused" die out. Those cells that are used will develop additional connections -- so the brain remains essentially the same size. But the capacity for change and for new ideas dies out, and the skills already possessed increase and become sharper.

I need to add a caveat: Sometime after 70 all the cells begin to die out. A person who lives a healthy, thinking life will keep them longer. (A word to the wise?)
---------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges

elaine · 02-10-09 8:29 pm

Hubb, what about "death bed conversions"?

pilgrim99 · 02-11-09 1:09 am

Hubb,

I have seen people of all ages come to Christ. My own father in law was baptized in his late 70's. That said, it's always better to come to Jesus earlier, rather than later. God's ways really are different to how I would approach things. It's a really good thing that I am not God.

Jesus shared these thoughts with His Disciples

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. And after agreeing with the workers for the standard wage, he sent them into his vineyard. When it was about nine o’clock in the morning, he went out again and saw others standing around in the marketplace without work. He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and I will give you whatever is right.’ So they went. When he went out again about noon and three o’clock that afternoon, he did the same thing. And about five o’clock that afternoon he went out and found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why are you standing here all day without work?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go and work in the vineyard too.’ When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, ‘Call the workers and give the pay starting with the last hired until the first.’
When those hired about five o’clock came, each received a full day’s pay. And when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more. But each one also received the standard wage. When they received it, they began to complain against the landowner, saying, ‘These last fellows worked one hour, and you have made them equal to us who bore the hardship and burning heat of the day.’ And the landowner replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am not treating you unfairly. Didn’t you agree with me to work for the standard wage? Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last man the same as I gave to you. Am I not permitted to do what I want with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ So the last will be first, and the first last.” Matthew 20:1-16 NET

maggie · 02-11-09 4:54 am

Neurological Nihilism, NO! Perennial Plasticity, YES! The window of opportunity never slams shut!

Brain Plasticity in Newsweek - Rewiring the brain
This “neurological nihilism,” as psychiatrist Norman Doidge calls it in his recent book, The Brain That Changes Itself, “spread through our culture, even stunting our overall view of human nature. Since the brain could not change, human nature, which emerges from it, seemed necessarily fixed and unalterable as well.”
But the dogma is wrong, the nihilism groundless.
In the last few years neuroscientists have dismantled it pillar by pillar, with profound implications for our view of what it means to be human. “These discoveries change everything about how we should think of ourselves, who we are and how we get to be that way,” says neuroscientist Michael Merzenich of the University of California, San Francisco. “We now know that the qualities that define us at one moment in time come from experiences that shape the physical and functional brain, and that continue to shape it as long as we live.”
http://neuron.typepad.com/neuron/2007/0 … ticit.html

The power of positive thinking finally gains scientific credibility.
Mind-bending, miracle-working, reality-busting stuff, with implications, as Dr. Doidge notes, not only for individual patients with neurologic disease but for all human beings, not to mention human culture, human learning and human history
--New York Times

By Hubb, Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 11:51 am:
Devon,
I was just thinking today before I got up: Can a person live for business and pleasure all his life, then come to the Lord after he retires?
I think this is very difficult. Of course God is merciful and will accept all who come to Him in faith. The problems arise when we realize that the older we get the more we become what we are already. (Does that make sense?)
We know this is true from the structure of the brain.
The cells in the brain that are "unused" die out. Those cells that are used will develop additional connections -- so the brain remains essentially the same size.
But the capacity for change and for new ideas dies out, and the skills already possessed increase and become sharper.
I need to add a caveat: Sometime after 70 all the cells begin to die out. A person who lives a healthy, thinking life will keep them longer.
(A word to the wise?
---------------------------
Hubert F. Sturges

Alright, Hubb, let's put my article to the test: are you willing to believe what cutting-edge science is demonstrating, or had you rather cling to the neurological nihilism we all believed in decades past.

Sometimes the things "we know are true" aren't true at all, and never were.

(A word to the wise?)

Annoying, aren't I....?

(Message edited by maggie on February 11, 2009)

maggie · 02-11-09 10:46 am

In the last few years neuroscientists have dismantled it pillar by pillar.
http://neuron.typepad.com/neuron/2007/0 … ticit.html

Pillar by pillar....outtahere

bob_2 · 02-11-09 1:23 pm

Nihilism has as part of it's argument:

Occam's razor is not an embargo against the positing of any kind of entity, or a recommendation of the simplest theory come what may[15] (Note that simplest theory is something like "only I exist" or "nothing exists"). Simpler theories are preferable other things being equal. The other things in question are the evidential support for the theory[16] Therefore, according to the principle, a simpler but less correct theory should not be preferred over a more complex but more correct one.
For instance, classical physics is simpler than subsequent theories, but should not be preferred over them because it is demonstrably wrong in certain respects. It is the first requirement of a theory that it works, that its predictions are correct and it has not been falsified. Occam's razor is used to adjudicate between theories that have already passed these tests, and which are moreover equally well-supported by the evidence.[17]
Another contentious aspect of the Razor is that a theory can become more complex in terms of its structure (or syntax), while its ontology (or semantics) becomes simpler, or vice versa.[18] The theory of relativity is often given as an example.
Galileo Galilei lampooned the misuse of Occam's Razor in his Dialogue. The principle is represented in the dialogue by Simplicio. The telling point that Galileo presented ironically was that if you really wanted to start from a small number of entities, you could always consider the letters of the alphabet as the fundamental entities, since you could certainly construct the whole of human knowledge out of them (a view that Abraham Abulafia presented much more expansively).

The absudity of simplifying everything to the alphabet is demonstrated.

Note the following complexity of man:

Neuroplasticity is the brain's ability to structurally change. There have been studies done with people with OCD who are taught to perceive their obsessions and compulsions as misfirings of their mind, and they are trained to ignore them, and focus elsewhere. Over time, the brain misfirings lower in intensity, and gradually fade away. Brain scans show that the brain has actually changed in response to the person's determined and constant focus and intent.
If that's true for OCD, then it might also be true for other psychological disorders.
Source(s):
I'm a clinical psychologist.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid= … 643AAZ8pi9

elaine · 02-11-09 6:50 pm

While it is unusual for someone past 70 to make major changes in thinking, it happens all the time. Why else would someone continue to learn long after three score and ten? And the evidence is clear that we DO learn after that age and the more we are open to new ideas, each new idea builds neurons and paths in the brain. Some of the greatest inventions and works of art and ideas have been introduced long past the ideal youthful age. Wisdom, for example, is not something one can learn from a textbook but comes from living, watching and observing, and it develops over time.

I went back to college after my 60th birthday; graduated, and then 20 years later studied for the M.A. degree which was completed at the age of 83. It's never too late unless you believe it is.

maggie · 02-11-09 7:24 pm

Elaine, you're living proof, sista!

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